What makes a good final boss fight?

>>386050842
It tests you on everything you learned throughout the game

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>>386050842
I think soul, these sort of boss fights have stakes and have been leading up to the exact point. Music as well

>>386050842
NNGHHHHHHHHH LIQUIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Motivation and music.

cinematic auto scroller

STANDING HERE

This fight like everything else in MGS4 is actually extremely stupid and the only reason it gets judged more lightly than the rest of the game is because by the time you've reached this point you've endured so much shit from this game that you're basically trapped in a light form of Stockholm syndrome and this moment seems like a triumphant return in comparison to the diarrhea that was this entire game before this moment.

Three pulsating glowy weak spots you need to hit with the new weapon you just got

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>>386050842
I battle where you have to go all out, just this one last time

>>386051228
I REALIZE

>>386050842
it could be a lot of things, gameplaywise it needs to the final test of our skills, but not controller crushingly difficult. music can account for alot as well. but sometimes even the most simple things can be good, like the OP cause finally finishing liquid off was cathartic as all hell

The final boss should use the gameplay hook of the game in such a way that it finally elucidates the theme and brings the whole point of the game full circle. It's often used best when it subverts what you've been doing the entire game to make a point.

Though admittedly, this is incredibly hard and no games are actually smart enough to pull it off. What you do see often though, is after the final boss or final piece of the game, there is a bit, like a small scene usually, where the core gameplay is used to make that thematic point, and the final boss before is more like a culmination of all that you've used.

>>386052356
YOU ARE JUST LIKE ME

>>386050842
quick time events

Music really does play a huge part

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>>386050842
Directing in general. sound effects, camera angles, character animations, music, the story leading up to it and the stakes established. Every little action counts toward making the experience have impact. The 45 seconds leading up to pic related are one of the best examples I can think of. Too bad they dropped the ball with the actual battle. OP image is probably the gold standard for a final boss.

>>386050904

This, also it makes you reflect on the whole game / franchise.

The great final bosses all do that and the terrible ones don't.

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>>386050842
>mechanics slowly introduced over the coarse of the game
>final boss incorporates all of them
>bonus: music is a remix of the main theme of the game

>>386052489
>finally finishing liquid off

>>386050842
Music

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLd5eabSJ3g

>>386050842

While
>>386050904
Is really good. I don't think it makes a good final boss fight.

IMO, a combination of Music + The journey that lead up to the boss, makes the fight memorable.

The game has to give you a REALLY GOOD reason to be in that fight. Otherwise, it just feel like any other boss + harder.

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the confrontation in meaningful
atmosphere
good use of game mechanics

>>386050842
>muh nostalgia wankfest

No, MGS4 is shit.

>>386056373
is*
I'm retarded

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From the replies on this thread, what conclusion can be taken from pic related as a "final boss" ?

>>386050842
its the last fight in the game

>>386057232

That was basically a story moment that takes place after the formal "Final Boss" fight.

>>386050842
QTEs

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>>386056520
>MGS4 was 9 years ago

>music is a remix of the main theme
post yfw

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>>386058905

>>386050904
>>386055231
can you give examples of this?

>>386058739
YOU LIE

>>386050842
Being more than a bunch of self-congratulatory fucking cutscenes

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Admit it /v/

>tense buildup before fight
>boss is a huge plot reveal
>the game's lore and previous villain encounters all lead up to this moment
>battle theme mixes tons of leitmotifs from the rest of the soundtrack and does it well
>fight is bombastic and steps out of bounds from what you previously encountered
>cheesy but lovable "power of friendship" moment
>intensely feelsy ending

Come on, the only thing this was actually missing was difficulty. Had the fight been harder and longer (and didn't pull that "but it refused" bullcrap) this shit would objectively be a gold standard final boss.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tz82xbLvK_k

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>>386060023

>>386060023

FF VI, FF VII, FF X, MGS 3, MGS 4, Crisis Core, DMC 3, Pokémon RBY, Pokémon GSC, ier Automata, Red Dead Redemption, God of War 2, Tales of the Abyss etc.

>>386060835
>MGS 3, MGS 4
no

>>386060347
>game's lore and previous villain encounters all lead up to this moment
But it doesn't.
You barely even know who Asriel is.

>>386060347
Nope. Sans and Flowey were much better, simply because they weren't scripted bullshit and you could actually DIE.

>>386060023
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59ijRpWjAcI

>>386060937

>MGS3 and 4 didn't have great boss fights

what?

>>386061246
>It tests you on everything you learned throughout the game

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>>386050842
The music
https://youtube.com/watch?v=MSxaj3VGJ2A

Cool music.
Succesfully instilled animosity or idealogical objection to the opponent.
Hard enough to make you feel accomplished after beating it but not actually hard enough to dampen the spectacle or the player's feeling of empowerment.

More games do that last thing than people like to admit.

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The music
The setting
and more importantly the build up
When all three are combined, you the the perfect final boss

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>Most challenging/2nd Most challenging fight in the game
>Multiple forms
>Extremely relevant to the game's plot and serves as a climax
>Kick ass music
It's gotta make you think 'this is it' y'know?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDqq_En24dM

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>>386061062
>biggest moment of exposition in the entire game is all about Asriel and the story of his death
>further exposition in the true lab
>but it doesn't

>>386053629
TRYING TO MAKE HISTORY

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>>386053813
its even better if its one button

>>386060023
Okami, you need to use every brush technique to defeat the final boss

>final boss cucks your wife the entire game
>does nothing but taunt you on your journey
>the final battle he fights you naked and his cock is the size of your entire leg

yes it's an actual game

>>386062323
What game?

>>386062323
Dantes Inferno?

>>386062453
yeah

emotional investment

>>386061246
>It tests you on everything you learned throughout the game

Based solely on this criteria then MGS4 doesn't make the cut. Liquid Ocelot is basically a totally separate game from the rest of MGS4.

MGS3 though is, in my opinion, the epitome of a good boss fight. The entire fucking game leads up to that confrontation, the atmosphere is palpable, and the fight itself utilizes the three tenants of the game (stealth, gunplay and CQC). Coupled with some major feels and it is THE greatest boss battle in the industry.

>>386062323
Dante's Inferno?

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1Ose7A8P94

>>386061684
You don't really give a shit about him either way; his plea about letting him win and whatnot didn't really reach me, anyway.

To be honest, knowing Flowey is in fact Asriel ruins Flowey for me. Until now, it was that "thing" that was so far gone it made it another entity entirely even among monsters. Flowey didn't need to have a reason as to why he was the way he was, trying to give him some depth for cheap feels at the end just felt really forced.

>>386050842
A long memorable fight with multiple and different forms;
Meaningful intro and maybe midbattle dialogue;
Boss defeat being visually appealing to make the player feel satisfied and great at seeing said final boss crumble into pieces;
Epic BGM fitting to the pace and intensity of the battle;
Charming scenario;
And of course, intimidating boss character.

>>386062820

Twilight Princess.

>>386062752
This. Flowey worked better as a fucked up sociopath. Asriel ruins the story imo.

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>>386062820

>>386062896
Agreed

>>386062896
Twilight Princess would be perfect if the Ganondorf phases actually dealt significant damage to you.

>>386051270
Not really. First time I've seen this fight was a video and I already thought it was the greatest thing

>>386063104
Indeed.
By intimidating I also mean that it should have a token OHKO, HPto1 or very high damaging AoE attack

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>>386050842
it needs to be kino as fuck

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>Encounter starts playing
>>386056373
Oh shit, is that what the Naked Snake Sneaking Suit in MGSV is supposed to be?
I never used it before, how do you get it?
Kinda fugly though.

>>386057232
It was very impactful in regards to the story but the actual fight is terrible. That's the entire point honestly. To show how pathetic allant had become and show the truth of the old one. Gameplay wise false king allant is the final boss.

>>386061902
BUT WHO'S TO JUDGE

>>386063643
It's found inside a locker after you knock out Raikov

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This is how you make a proper final boss. Fuck you I consider him the final boss I don't care what you think.

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>>386063250
>HP to 1
>intimidating

>>386063986
Well, he is the final boss of the DLC, so I guess it sort of works.

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>>386050842
Atmosphere, music, the build-up and the fight itself.

>>386063986
I mean, Gehrman isn't half bad in that regard either.

Can someone explain why it's liquid ocelot and not liquid snake? I never played the 4th game and probably won't ever

>>386062323

Super Mario

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>>386063717
WHATS RIGHT FROM WRONG

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>>386050976
Buddy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80XAJKqRU9k

>>386065156
Because it's Liquid Snake's hand on Revolver Ocelot's body.

>>386065547
Wait what?
So did liquid take over ocelots mind as well?
Poor ocelot

>>386065156
Basically, Liquid died at the end of the first game and since then Revolver "the Madman" Ocelot pretended to be the host of Liquid's soul.

>>386065156
Because he isn't a snake. He's Ocelot. He has liquid attached to his name because he pretended to be possessed by Liquid snake. At least Eva says he was just bullshitting. Which I believe.

>>386050904
I think this definitely works for games in which the techniques/gameplay are the focus, or games that require skill.

For RPGs it isn't so much about that as what the final bossfight means - how you got there, who it's against, what's at stake etc.

>>386065591
>>386065623
It's ambiguous whether there was actually any supernatural shit going on. My interpretation has always been that in MGS2, Liquid was legitimately possessing Ocelot (he's the son of a medium and therefore spiritually intuned). Then, between MGS2 and MGS4, Ocelot has Liquid's arm removed and replaced by a prosthetic, but continues to pretend to be Liquid for his plan to unfold.

Generic opera music and a cheesy speech about protecting your friends before the fight. Also the boss HAS to be the size of a building and use a sword of some sort.

>>386065591

No, but after a short period of actual possession followed by the removal of Liquid's arm, Ocelot spent so much time faking that he was still possessed (some believe that happened because he admired Big Boss so much), he lost his own personality and 'became' Liquid. He then wanted to fulfill the Boss' dream of a world where soldiers ruled and wanted to fight Solid one last time, the closest he could ever come to facing Big Boss once again.

>>386065591
>>386065623
>>386065728
>>386065793
>>386065931
So wait, there was a time when it was probably real possession? And he removed Liquid's hand?

I thought he was always faking it.

>>386066427

In MGS2 it's the real deal, is the running theory, for the reasons already stated. In MGS4 he's faking it, he has a robot arm in place of Liquid's.

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>>386066427
Like I said it's ambiguous. The idea that the possession is a farce isn't introduced until the very end of MGS4. Whether that reveal suggests that it was always bullshit, or it was once genuine but Ocelot overcame it and started pretending afterwards (between MGS2 and MGS4), is basically up to the player.

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>>386066427
>>386066789
but the arm definitely wasn't robotic in MGS2, it has veins and muscle and you see it tense up dramatically whenever Liquid takes control. So in all likelihood MGS2 was genuine spooky shenanigans, which Ocelot overcame by removing the arm but was inspired to continue using the Liquid persona for MGS4.

What always confuses me is why he needed the Liquid persona in MGS4. I guess it was to ensure Snake would get involved? I believe they mention that the Patriots, being machines, have set methods of dealing with situations. Since they sent Snake after Liquid on Shadow Moses, Ocelot became Liquid to ensure that they would use the same method and therefore Snake would be sent in.

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>>386050842
The atmopshere. It has to feel like a grand finale in line with the tone of the rest of the game, wether it be an emotional climax or just bombastic music and visuals greater than any that proceeded it.

>>386067675
Touhou games always succeed at that.

>>386067310
>What always confuses me is why he needed the Liquid persona in MGS4. I guess it was to ensure Snake would get involved? I believe they mention that the Patriots, being machines, have set methods of dealing with situations. Since they sent Snake after Liquid on Shadow Moses, Ocelot became Liquid to ensure that they would use the same method and therefore Snake would be sent in.
That is a pretty good one, implying the continuation of Mystical shenanagins that robots are VERY bad at dealing with could be another factor too.

Boss fights are what is ruining gaming.

>>386067310
He needed the persona in 4 to just trick the Patriots with everything. He was a Patriot himself and seen as a threat, he needed to not be a Patriot and become someone they felt to be predictable

>>386063543
Damn, Crysis hasn't aged well...

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>>386051270
the microwave scene + this fight were the highlight of the game desu

>>386068506
>thing that's been around basically since the beginning of video games is ruining gaming somehow

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>>386069674
>

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>>386058905

>>386068506
You mentally ill millennial is what's ruining gaming. It's all good though, gaming became shit when it started to cater to you.

>>386069967
I like how the Microwave scene was the Torture scene with a better sense of agency for the player.

And the same "Meant to cause the player actual physical pain to elicit some degree of sympathy with the protagonist.

>>386070062
yea, looks nice when you stay far away from the actual textures, and almost zero lighting. The rocks look like shit in that game

>>386070062
>le epic foliage

It's a shit game and you should be ashamed of yourself for posting that. But you're not, because it's a piece of shit game for a sack of shit like yourself.

>>386050842
Anything that's not that.

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>>386068506
2/10 got me to reply

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>>386060835
>Tales of the Abyss

>>386070484
good point senpai, plus im a sucker for raiden and i love the dynamic he and snake had in the final chapter

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>>386058739
HOLY SHIT

>>386070958
The biggest issue with the torture scenes was that you weren't really moving towards an actual tangible goal.

The Microwave sequence fixed that.

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>>386058739
>We still haven't let it go
How could we have failed him so horribly?

>>386060835
> ier Automata
The final Boss (A2 or 9S) is literally easier than any of the goliaths

>>386071284
but the torture scene in mgs1 had a goal, keeping meryl alive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVcc16o0SaY
Music

A sense of struggle: it doesn't have to actually be difficult, but it should feel like it is. I think a lot of the superficial aspects are more important than the gameplay. It needs to look imposing, have fitting music, take place in an appropriate setting, and be just long enough to feel climactic.

Giygas is one of my favorite examples.

hollow knight radiance (true final boss) is pretty much the best boss end boss fight that I can think of. Music is exceptional, alot if not all abilities learned used in some form during the fight, difficulty is hard enough to feel rewarding from winning, and boss fills in a desirable end to the game.

>>386064352
Vergil's got a "buy my game" look to him.

>>386060835
Who even was the final boss in Red Dead Redemption?

If you ask me there are two "types" of final boss. You have the story boss, and you have the gameplay boss.
The story boss derives memorability from his buildup. Every moment in the game is spent knowing that the end will see you and the boss in a showdown.
The gameplay boss is a test of your skill. Every trick, strategy, and technique you've learned throughout the game is put to use to defeat him.

Some games combine the two very well and you get instant classics like Armstrong and Gwyn.
Other times you get qte bosses that technically fall into the story boss category but if the dev didn't care enough to make a proper battle then the story probably has the same amount of effort. Think Dying Light or Shadow of Mordor.
A trick I really enjoy is having both types of bosses. One that ends the game and feels suitably epic but is not all that difficult, and the optional face raper boss who will push you to the edge. The wrong way of doing this is the jrpg style defeat the final boss oh noes an even eviller final boss that was never mentioned or even hinted at appeared!

>>386050842
Hype.
It can be mechanically shit but with sufficient hype it will be a great experience. See Super Metroid, MGS2, FFVII. Don't see MGSV

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>>386050842
>his health bar goes from Liquid > Liquid Ocelot > Ocelot to signify that his hypnotherapy is wearing off and he's regaining his true self

Goddamn it's so good

>>386051270
The fight is one of the redeeming things about MGS4

>>386069967
It was good but a few minutes later it was pretty stupid because in the end Snake didn't do shit. Everything was done by Otacon with the Mk3
What was the point?

>>386073806
It's (You), the player!

>>386050904
Textbook answer.
A+

>>386055421
>music is a remix of the main theme of the game
Ah, I see you're a man of culture as well

>>386071613

I'm talking about the credits

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>>386070651
Tasteless sonybro detected

>>386050842
holy shit. this fight had me on tears.

>>386050842
The best thing about this fight was that it was the end of this fucking game.

>>386062571
>>386061458
Not that anon, but I feel that MGS4 still fits this criteria but instead of the game, replace it with the entire [mainline] franchise up to that point. Remember Ocelot's fighting style changes to the one which reflects the game being highlighted.

>trading blows to, "I'M STIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIILL IN A DREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAM

LIQUIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIID

>>386078842
SNAAAAAAAAAAAKE

>>386079126
LIIIQUIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIID

>>386079468
snake

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>>386050904
FPBP
>>386060023
Jergingha from TW101 comes to mind.
Vergil v. Dante
Orphan of Kos
Armstrong
The Boss

>>386068506
No you

>>386063543

This boss fight wasn't good?

I say whatever route they choose for the final boss can work as long as it feels heavy.

It's the last moments of the game, and what happens is pretty often how you will remember the game looking back. So give it the right music, make it a spectacle if necessary, just make it feel like the time invested in the journey is culminating up to something that's gonna stick with the player right. Oh, and make sure it isn't buggy as all fuck.

>>386084767
No, but regarding the atmosphere and tension it was almost perfect. Everything building up to it was fun too.

>>386050904
>>386055231
>>386055910
These.

A good final boss fight has to FEEL like the culmination of everything you had been doing up to that point, not just in terms of the final boss requiring you to use every or almost every mechanic in the game but in terms of consistency. Fuck boss fights where you end up doing something completely different than what you'd been doing through most of the game and fuck final bosses as QTEs.

>>386061475
>Level cap is 99
>Final Boss is level 100

Why is YHVH so much cooler villain than David Bowie?

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>mgo2 is online and you arent playing it
Why not anon?

>>386050842
Multiple Stages
Long enough that close to the player is worried about losing

I love MGS4

>>386057232
that boss is essentially a plot tie up, the real last boss is the fake version that can one shot you. and the entire dungeon before him.

Say what you will about him being a "literally-who" but I think Slave Knight Gael is nearly a perfect boss fight. The music keeps rising and swelling and Gael getting more and more vicious as the fight progresses. It is a challenge, but just the right amount. It feels difficult, but never takes more than 3 tries to beat. Older players can enjoy the cinematic experience and little details (like the white summon sign) while newer players will still feel like they have a chance and wont be discouraged. Finally, the fight encapulates a part of the atmosphere of the series as well: two warriors without purpose or hope, but both unable to die, fighting over scraps at the end of the world.

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a million different forms

>>386050842
Gameplay wise?
>>386050904
first post is best post
Story wise depends of what kind of feel you want to put in there.
The feeling that no matter who wins, everyone loses, or the sense of """"justice"""" while you fight.

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>>386050976
>came here to post Pixy
>somebody already did
Perhaps good taste has not yet been completely purged from this board

>>386060347
I love the fight too anon, but the fact that you literally can't lose the fight kinda fucks over most of your points.

Ill name three that really stuck with me.
Ornstien and Smoughgles weren't the end of DS, but it certainly felt like it. The feeling of walking into the throne room with that busty chick made me feel like all my failures up to that point were worth it. Gameplay wise best boss fight I've ever played. Only the first phase though, second can't live up to the slam and jam of two at once.

When I was really young, I loved the Pokemon champions. The new music to the fight and rare Pokemon were interesting, but not a totally foreign concept; they were beatable with your current knowledge and preparation.

Oddly enough the bosses to Fire Emblem games (only on lunatic classic) were memorable. Chosing units that you knew were going to die for the sake of the mission was especially powerful to me, since I grew to like them as units and as characters.

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Build up, high stakes, music, atmosphere and a finisher to top it all off

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>>386065210
WHEN OUR GUARD IS DOWN, I THINK WE'LL BOTH AGREE

>>386086082
I dunno, but The Wonderful 101's final QTE I think can be excused.

>>386093840
THAT VIOLENCE BREEDS VIOLENCE

>>386094237
I think anon meant the entire final boss being a QTE, W101 more than earns its QTE with all the boss phases and gameplay leading up to it. I've never been more excited to draw a W and spam a button

>>386060023
MGS3 The boss
DS3 Soul of Cinder
Heartgold Red I guess

>>386060835
>Pokémon GSC
If you're talking about Red, yes. Three Dragonites man was a pushover.

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>>386094479
>Final order: Commence destruction of Earth!

>>386061493
that last point is completely legit, never thought about that before anon

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Tonight, Gehrman joins the hunt.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3V9zxXN1rx0

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Ascension and a feeling of well-deserved success. It also needs a sense of climax in some way, whether it's somber and moody or explosive and intense.

I'd say that The Wonderful 101 (pic-related) and Asura's Wrath accomplishes these very well (both the vanilla ending and the DLC ending).

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>>386095607
And while I'm hesitant to add Lost Planet 2 up here since the final boss can be piss easy when you avoid the one shots, the build-up to the final moments are what make the game stand out and amazing to witness.

>>386062323
D E E P E S T L O R E