Is this a fighting game or not?

>>386038269
What else would it be?

>>386038269
Is Playstation All-Stars Battle Royal a fighting game?

Yes, not a traditional one, but one nonetheless.

>>386038269
It's a platform fighting game, same as:
Jump Ultimate Stars
Outfoxies
Power Stone
Rivals of Aether
Dream Mix TV
Digimon Rumble Arena
etc...

Platform Fighting games are a subgenre of fighting games, same as Arena Shooters and Tactical Shooters are subgenres of shooting games.

It's not a competitive fighting game though, according to:
Ishiwatari
Harada
and Sakurai himself

It's just not properly balanced or designed for 1v1 play. Even though many people like to pretend it is. Smash is balanced around FFA first.

>>386038469
A party game

It's a stream monster game

More viewers than people who play the fucking game

>>386039220
it's a fighting party game :^)

>>386038269
It is. Just not a traditional fighting game.

That said it has the worst community of any fighting game that's ever existed.

>>386038657
>>386039850
>it has the worst community of any fighting game that's ever existed.
Holy shit this.

>>386039220
Party game isn't a genre classification.

>>386040937
Then what are Mario Party and Wii Party?

>>386039095
>Smash is balanced around FFA first.

No it's just not balanced at all. Fox is even more of a broken character in FFA items and retarded stages.

>>386040995
Videogames.

>>386040995
Not that anon but they certainly aren't of the same genre as Smash as should be obvious to anyone.

>>386040995
board games and minigame collections

>>386038269
It's a fighting game, but more technically a subgenre of them called a platform fighter

>>386038269
Yes, it doesn't matter what haters try to argue. I's a non-trditional fighting game with more casual than hardcore appeal, but it is still a fighting game to the core.

>>386039220
Not mutually exclusive.

And Melee specifically is good precisely because it can be tuned to be a good party game or a more hardcore-oriented fighting game.

>>386041228
Is minigame a real genre?
I think "minigame" may actually consist of many different genres.

it's casual trash that 14 year old memers and autistic manchildren circlejerk because it's most likely their first experience with a game that has even the slightest mechanical depth.

File: yes.png (40KB, 465x698px) Image search: [Google]

40KB, 465x698px

It can be a fighting game if that's what you want it to be.
Great thing about Smash is the ability to freely customize your experience.

I can assure you that if every match would be 4 player with random stages and items on it wouldn't be as successful as it is.
It's a game about fighting someone else. How you go on about it is up to you.
It just happened that you can customize it to a degree that fits the requirements of a fighting game.

>>386042112
Melee was my gateway into much better games like Guilty Gear and Tekken. I wonder why other people who play it competitively didn't move past it.

I mean, Blazblue for example has the same "fun factor" as competitive Melee given how fast paced and accessible it is.

The only somewhat legit argument is that it's not a fighting game when it's not 1-on-1. Even with more than 2 players I would consider it a fighting game personally, but if the amount of players were arbitrarily large then at some point it would begin to transform into a very different experience from what we usually understand as fighting games. So Smash with more than two players is a bit of a gray area.

>>386042414
I get this. But at the same time, why wrestle in trying to make a game not balanced for competitive play, competitive? It makes no sense to me, when there are other, better fighting games that are much more satisfying than Melee to master, and they don't give you arthritis in the process.

>>386042678
>>386042112
I mean traditional fighters are very different from Melee, you are not moving past anything as much as you are just playing entirely new genres of games.

>>386042678
Because it wouldn't be "moving past" just moving to something completely different that doesn't give the same feedback from input which is the reason people play specific games based on what feedback they like from what inputs they enjoy inputting.

>>386042734
It's a platform fighting game. That much is obvious.

Fighting games break down into various subgenres:
>Classic Fighting games
Street Fighter
KoF
Darkstalkers
Jojo
etc...
>Air Dashers
Guilty Gear
Blazblue
Arcana Heart
Melty Blood
etc...
>3v3 Fighting Games
MvC
Skullgirls
Dragonball FighterZ
etc...
>3D Fighting Games
Tekken
Soul Calibur
Virtua Fighter
Dead or Alive
etc...
>Free Roam Fighters
Xenoverse
Budokai Tenkaichi
Naruto series
>Sports Fighters
UFC
WWF
>Platform Fighting Games
Super Smash Bros.
Jump Ultimate Stars
Digimon Rumble Arena
Power Stone
Dream Mix TV
etc...
>Beat Em Ups
Bayonetta
Devil May Cry
etc...


What Smash is NOT, is a competitively designed fighting game.

>>386043063
But Blazblue isn't a traditional fighter, it's an air dasher.

>>386043013
>why wrestle in trying to make a game not balanced for competitive play, competitive
Because balance in itself is useless.
Best example is Street Fighter 1. Two identical fighter, the most balanced fighting game that shows who is more skilled.

But that's boring as fuck. Melee can be seen as unbalanced because the differences between the low tier characters and the high-tier characters are bigger than in traditional fighting games.
However that doesnt mean they're useless since you can still win locals with [UNORTHODOX BUT FAILY EFFECTIVE MID-CHARACTER]

The meta is actually so balanced at the highest level of play that there are rarely any upsets.

> It makes no sense to me, when there are other, better fighting games that are much more satisfying than Melee to master
Debatable. The freeflow combo system of Melee lays the focus on mastering the mechanics, while I have the feeling that traditional fighting games are about grinding the input frames and muscle memory.
Convoluted Combo inputs are also not needed as Melee proves this.

It's hard to compare them Imo

>>386043659
It's still closer to traditional fighters than it is to Melee. What people like you need to understand is that people are not going to move on from Melee because there's nothing to move on to.

>>386043573
/thread

>>386043776
Only because it's not competitively designed, which is precisely the argument against Melee being a fighter.

A competitively designed platform fighting game would have stuff like:
>Classic fighting game archetypes (balanced, Rushdown, zoner, grappler)
>True combos
>combo break mechanics
>proper cancels
>better blocking mechanics
>meticulously designed movesets (so no throwaway Down B counters)

>people are not going to move on from Melee because there's nothing to move on to.
What about Rivals of Aether?

I feel most Melee players are just too stuck in their ways. If it doesn't have Fox and Wavedashing, then they don't care. Hence, Icons.

>>386038269
Party platformer.

>>386042678
Because BB is not "the same as Smash but better". These games are played extremely differently, the only reason you would chose BB instead of Melee is because you probably like more the fighting style of BB. It's as simple as that. Not because BB is an enhanced version of Melee, both games don't have enough in common to be compared like this.

Also I'm not sure for Melee since they got quite a lot of hardcore fans in their fanbase. But I started competitive Smash with Brawl (and thus continued in Smash4) and a lot of us players are in fact also playing other fighting games more or less competitively. I also play SF4-5, UMVC3 and GNT Naruto (back in the days...). And I have lots of friends who plays GG, BB, and KoF.
These games are not mutually exclusives.

>>386044385
I'm not going to address your arbitrary definition and requirements for something being a fighters because not only are they wrong informed when it comes down to Melee (true combos, shielding, etc) but they are also wrong for fighting games, unless Super Turbo isn't a fighting game because it doesn't have combo breaking mechanics.

RoA has no ledges and the game is very simplified compared to Melee, it's not even a secret because the design of the game is based around making an accessible version of the Melee combo system while keeping the simple and fun recovery system from Brawl and Smash 4. In short, it's very different from Melee, not a viable option.
> If it doesn't have Fox and Wavedashing, then they don't care. Hence, Icons
Funny you say that because Icons is being shat on by the Melee community mainly on the fact that it's too much like Melee, the Icons team basically implemented every Melee mechanic and character (Kidd is basically Fox) so now the product looks like a shallow function of what Melee is supposed to be, on top of being ugly already, of course.

If the Melee community wanted Melee but worse or to play something different they would because there's options, as for something that builds on the platform fighter genre there was PM but that didn't take off because of Icons among other things, but aside from that there's nothing else.

>>386044642
But who said anything about BB being "the same as Melee?"

The fundamentals of BB and all fighters are identical to those in Smash. Difference being, THOSE games are made for competitively designed, while Smash is not.

Why must something play the same as Melee? You like fast paced fighters? Plenty exist. Why not expand your horizons and give something else a chance? Why stubbornly stick to the game that isn't designed for that, damages your health to master, and requires banning of moves and very specific rules to be competitive?

Why not accept that Smash is a good gateway onto fighters, and try out the more competitive games if you wanna compete?

It's the equivalent of playing Kickball as a kid, and rather than moving onto Baseball if you wanna be competitive, insisting that Kickball should be taken seriously because Baseball is too different from Kickball for you to bother giving it a chance.

>>386045212
>Why must something play the same as Melee?

But nothing has to since Melee already plays the same as Melee, so why play something that doesn't?

>>386042414
1V1 final destination no items no smash ball

>>386045154
Blazblue
>wahhh game is too different from Melee
RoA
>wahhh game isn't exactly like Melee
Icons
>wahhh game is too similar to Melee

Then what do you want? Just admit that Meleefags only want Melee and nothing else. And Smaahfags only like it cause of the Nintendo characters, and like to pretend the game takes as much skill as other fighters.

>>386045439
Ah yes, I too enjoy 9gag memes.

>>386038269
It's definitely not a cuddling game

>>386045378
Because Melee isn't competitively designed and people are always throwing bitchfits over arbitrary rule changes.

>>386045587
And yet it's one of the best competitive games and I've never once been affected by these apparent bitchfits over supposedly arbitrary rulesets. All I do is have fun competing against people with the game. Now what?

>>386045465
Something like PM was pretty good, actually, basically Melee gameplay with more characters, updated graphics, more focused balance, more stages, etc. Melee really doesn't have a *sequel* in the same way Street Fighter 2 has Street Fighter 3, for example, and that's what we want. If the Street Fighter community had to move on to a game like Marvel some of the community would be unwilling to change, wouldn't they?

>as much skill as other fighters
Melee takes a lot of skill, anon, arguably more than most fighters available right now.

>>386041850
Many genre's of minigames.

>>386045212
some people like what they like. i play GG and third strike occasionally but thats more for fun whereas I like to take melee more seriously. both the other fighters I play are very fun, but to me nothing matches a lot of the smaller intricacies involved in melee.

plenty of videogames hurt your hands, even if you aren't playing competitive. plenty of professional SC players had terrible arthritis. with melee it's mainly not taking proper precautions with breaks, proper technique, etc.

>>386045465
what's wrong with not being impressed with the other options? some people like melee and it's their only game. the FGC is maybe one of the few instances where you focus on multiple games instead of just one.

>>386045813
>Something like PM
Sooo Icons then? Didn't you just say the problem with that was it being too similar?

Because half the success of PM was the characters. If you're willing to admit the Nintendo characters make Smash abd not the gameplay then, we're good. But that reinforces my original point.

>Melee takes a lot of skill, anon, arguably more than most fighters available right now.
I disagree, but how about you back that up with a proper argument, instead of making arbitrary statements.

>>386045775
Cool, I'm not trying to push your buttons. It being a massively successful game doesn't change the fact that it's only because people push an arbitrary set of rules that most of those people can't even agree on. It's not competitively designed. I just saw M2K bitching about the new rulesets for Melee tourneys on FB. You don't see this nonsensical back and forth in other communities as how the games are designed is how they're meant to be played, and they allow foe plenty of room for growth, while Melee has stagnated massively.

It' very flexible. It can be a party game, singular campaign, or fighting game depending on how the person wants to play the game. There is no just one definition for it. Sure it is the meme fighting game but it is undeniable that it has the most intricate game play, best history, and most talked about just because of how controversial it is.

>>386046331
>>386046085
Alright, then answer me this:

If some dev were to come out with a competitively designed platform fighting game, with high production value, appealing characters, and tons of mechanical depth; the Guilty Gear to Melee's Street Fighter; would it be a success? And would Meleefags bother to give it a chance? Y/n?

Be honest.

And if not, why not?

>>386046417
not him, but i've always felt that melee is rooted in it's movement options. for example you can miss your dash with someone like marth, get caught in your turnaround, which is a small handful of frames, and eat a full string just because you pressed your analog stick to the right a few frames too late. even missing an l-cancel can set you up for a bad punish. if you aren't controlling your character perfectly odds are you're going to lose.

>>386046417
How exactly do those arguments on facebook affect the game's gameplay, or me engaging with it?

>You don't see this nonsensical back and forth in other communities as how the games are designed is how they're meant to be played
That doesn't affect the gameplay or me playing the game. In fact you don't seem to know much about the ruleset decisions since you think it's nonsensical when it's literally just applying sensible standards to a competitive format, which every other community does. A best of five set is not built into SFV's gameplay, that is an "arbitrary" ruleset imposed on the game. As well, using modded fightsticks is not allowed in other games, and the "nonsensical" ruleset you're talking about being discussed right now includes banning modded controllers. You just don't actually seem to know what you're talking about.

> and they allow foe plenty of room for growth, while Melee has stagnated massively
Melee has been growing in popularity for years while other games are either less popular or getting less popular like SF because of Capcom's incompetence. This is despite Melee being a 16 year old game and every other fighting game that's currently played competitively getting new releases and updates and content. Stagnant simply isn't an accurate word since it holds negative connotations of unchanging, where Melee is constantly changing. If you watch a top level match from last year it is different than a top level match from this year because the best players are still getting better and better and better at the game.

>>386038269
Why is /v/ obsessed with these kind of semantic arguments? Smash bros is it's own thing, you don't have to catergorize it.

I don't see how calling it a fighting game would be some kind of badge of honor because melee is much better than fighting games.

>>386047007
But that's the case for ALL fighting games.

>>386046417
>Melee doesn't take skill
>Players literally destroy their hands to get good at the game
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDjlV6Qtb90
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vyBV94K4SE

>>386046889
>If some dev were to come out with a competitively designed platform fighting game, with high production value, appealing characters, and tons of mechanical depth; the Guilty Gear to Melee's Street Fighter; would it be a success? And would Meleefags bother to give it a chance? Y/n?

Yeah it was called PM. It got killed off by streamers over fear of Nintendo.

Think of it like alternate rock but for fighting games.

>>386047119
>melee is much better than fighting games.
kek

>>386046889
i mean i can't speak for everyone who enjoys melee, there would probably be some fanboys stuck in the mindset for melee but that sounds amazing. it just hasn't happened yet, the closest thing being RoA which removes some (in my opinion) great mechanics that make melee special (shields and ledge and grab particularly )

File: Ppmd-thinking.jpg (20KB, 252x320px) Image search: [Google]

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>>386047172
PM was a mod not a game and it used Nintendo characters. Try again, that doesn't answer my question.

>>386046417
>Sooo Icons then
Icons is not really PM because PM was Melee 2, Icons is shittier Melee. Less characters, uglier, worse designs, etc. There's a reason to play PM over Melee, but not to play Icons over Melee.

>proper argument
What do you want? No input buffer? SDI and DI allowing for a harder (and more creative) combo system? Movement mechanics? I could go on, but in reality Melee is too different to make a fair and valid skill comparison, you really won't agree unless you play it or make research over how hard it actually is, and me telling you that it is as someone that enjoys fighters and Melee it's not going to change anything because you won't believe me.

>>386047138
To be fair those aren't good examples of what makes Melee super fast because a lot of the inputs only contribute to one action.

>>386047136
for movement only?

>>386047405
doing those actions quicker than most people doesnt make the game faster?

>>386038269
>characters don't have health bars
>aren't tidally locked to each other for fighting game mechanics
>arn't confined to one specific elevation and can move through the floor like platform characters
>no combo mechanics
It's a platformer/party game. smahstards only insist it's a fighting game because they want to sound respectable

>>386047358
I gave you a real world example of a game that is similar to Melee being released and yes Melee players (and Brawl players) also played that game. It stands to reason then that the Smash community is open to playing any platform fighter that comes their way similar to what they enjoy. This is why Rivals of Aether was popular as a side game in the Smash community and many top players liked to stream it and play it as well because it's a similar platform fighter.

If you can't discern an answer to your question from that then that's just your own cognitive shortcomings.

>>386047580
>characters don't have health bars
Stocks.

>aren't tidally locked to each other
>arn't confined to one specific elevation and can move through the floor like platform characters
Unless your idea of "fighting game" is just anything that directly builds on the Super Turbo template then this is irrelevant.

>no combo mechanics
Wrong.

File: ecb.png (345KB, 600x450px) Image search: [Google]

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So now that we've decided that Smash Bros. is a fighting game, can we all agree it's a casual fighting game compared to other fighting games.

>>386045465
nice simplification.
If people want to play Melee let them fucking play melee, no need to throw a bitchfit since they don't want to play blazeblue or RoA.

>>386048007
Casual in what way?
Which title are you referring to you need to be more specific?

STRAWPOLL:

http://www.strawpoll.me/13614993
http://www.strawpoll.me/13614993
http://www.strawpoll.me/13614993
http://www.strawpoll.me/13614993

>>386047575
Oh it certainly does. Just not to the same magnitude as those videos make it seem.

>>386048007
No, melee has the highest skill ceiling of any fighting game in history. Top level players are still evolving 16 years later

>>386048090
All Smash games are casual, even in competitive play compared to other fighting games Ask anyone who plays Smash instead of other fighting games and the answer 99.9% of the time will be "because other fighting games have combos that are too difficult to memorize." or something similar.

>>386048163
even the simpler movement options can impact a game. something as simple as grabbing the ledge can take like 9 inputs if you want to get there fast enough to edgeguard someone.

>>386048360
why hasn't any FGC pro made a breakthrough in melee? wouldn't it just be easy money if what you say is correct? what's stopping them?

What fighting series is better? One that has to have newer releases to compensate for old inefficient titles? Or one that constantly evolves with much to uncover year after year.

>>386048360
>Ask anyone who plays Smash instead of other fighting games and the answer 99.9% of the time will be "because other fighting games have combos that are too difficult to memorize." or something similar.

I don't think I've ever heard that no.

Usually the answer has something to do with movement and physics which is the primary difference between Melee and other fighting games.

>>386048362
I think that the speed of melee should be determined based on the actions in the game not the inputs.

>>386047826
Unless it's based off the super turbo template like all good fighting games are, it's not a fighting game. There's a good reason it's been used for 20 plus years. That is not up for debate.

>>386039095
>It's not a competitive fighting game though,
>the game at the biggest fighting tournament isn't competitive
hm...

>>386048007
Why? Because it's more fun to play at a low level? Because its fans play the game instead of claiming that they love the series while dumping softcore porn and there is no one in the thread setting up a lobby to play?

>>386048603
>Unless it's based off the super turbo template, it's not a fighting game

So then "fighting game" simply isn't a genre. There's just Super Turbo Clones.

Alright.

>>386048579
inputs = actions though? i think i'm just not getting what you're trying to say.

>>386048440
Well I can't speak for anyone else but I wouldn't switch to Melee simply because it's easier to master, I would want to play what I enjoyed playing and what I had spent years mastering to begin with. Plus isn't their more money involved for other, more complex fighting games?

>>386048773
>Plus isn't their more money involved for other, more complex fighting games?

Nope the biggest payouts go to the less complex fighters SFV and Netherrealms games.

>>386048773
melee has several tournaments a month (especially in the summer) that are worth a decent amount of money. if melee is so easy someone like tokido or jwong or whoever else could just pick up fox, travel to the tournaments, and make bank.

>>386048893
So you admit SFV has a bigger prize pool than melee? That sounds like a greater incentive for skilled players to play those games competitively instead of Smash.

>>386048440
Why hasn't va ProSmasher ever made a breakthrough in any other fighting game if it's so much better?

>>386049035
I remember after G3 Jwong tweeting that he was buying a CRT, I wonder whatever came of it. It'd be cool to see him playing. They did an event at EVO where Daigo was playing Marth it was neat.

>>386049071
>So you admit
Uhhh what's to admit? I just stated a fact to you. And a fact that can be easily googled. The less complex games get the bigger payouts.

>>386049205
Wasn't Lord Knight a Melee player though?

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>>386047119
Few people legitimately care about the definition of a fighting game. There's a reason you rarely see threads asking if Ultimate Ninja Storm is a fighting game, because nobody cares what Naruto fans think of their games. They buy them, mash about with their favourite edgelord and shelve the game. The FGC never interacts with them and only the most autistic of each group ever argues about it. This is entirely different with Smash.

The reason we have these threads all the time is because Smash is regularly featured at fighting game tournaments and the FGC doesn't like the Smash community. Since smash has a large dedicated following the only way it's going to get dropped is if it becomes too annoying to run at events(CRTs, consoles, community autism) or if it's decided that it doesn't belong(culture clashes, no game overlap, and not being a fighting game).

Since nobody but the tournaments have access to their numbers of how much Smash costs to run versus how much it brings in and how communities are dynamic, the default internet argument becomes whether it's a fighting game or not.

tl;dr: Nobody cares about the actual argument, they just want Smash to leave.

>>386049035
>melee has several tournaments a month
I won't pretend to know the exact amount awarded to the winner of those tournaments but I don't imagine it's very high. Also are you implying that their aren't multiple tournaments involving other, more complicated fighting games throughout the year.

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>>386048360
Combos in fighting games aren't difficult, it's all about muscle memory. You can grind it down easy in either type of fighting game. It's not like there's a huge difference. The combo systems are entirely different because of how the games are made.

Traditional fighters:
Scenario > Combo > New scenario > Combo

Smash:
Combo > Variable outcome > Adapt and extend combo

Smash combos are more akin to a tree with thousands of different outcomes based on percent, trajectory directional influence, smash directional influence and automatic smash directional influence. There's too many outcomes from a single hit to narrow it down into a written combo.

>>386049205
i hate quantifying a game as "better" or "worse" since its such a subjective thing. the dude said melee is easy and the only reason "pros" play melee is because "real" fighting games are too hard. it's not the case. some people just enjoy melee more than other fighting games and they spent a lot of time playing it before there was ever a monetary incentive to play.

>>386049205
I'm not sure you realize your question is nonsensical.

I think what you meant to ask is "Why hasn't a pro smasher made a breakthrough in any other fighting game if they're less complex?" which still wouldn't be any refutation of anon's point since the point he was making is that transferrable skills and input/output reward is completely different so there's not a lot of top level crossover regardless of which might take more technical knowledge to play at a prize winning level.

>>386049403
they can range from $2k to $15k, depending on the sponsors/size of the event usually.

>>386049286
yeah i remember seeing that, definitely would've been cool. I think k-brad also talked about wanting to play?

>>386048651
its not even the biggest game at EVO you dunce

>>386049630
he never said its the biggest game, it's definitely up there though. people bring up catherine and shit but it gets more entrants than a bunch of "real" fighting games.

>>386049427
Plenty of people ITT are qualifying Melee as "much better than every other fighting game" and saying it "takes much more skill."

If that's the case, why don't the Melee Gods pick up other games that pay much better on the side and dominate? I mean Diago plays s lot more than SF. The Melee Gods on the other hand can't even translate their skills properly to other Smash games.

>>386049630
He said the tournament is biggest, not the game.

Melee's only the second biggest game at EVO.

>>386049630
Make sure you lift with your legs when you move that goalpost like that.

>>386049878
Football takes much more athletic ability than golf but Tom Brady is never going to play in the US open. I mean the "IF THIS PERSON IS SO GOOD AT THIS THING WHY DON'T THEY GO DO THIS EASIER THING" argument might be one of the stupidest things I ever see on /v/ in general. Watch-making is more complex than baking cakes but that doesn't mean watchmakers should go start a bakery. Two different tasks can have completely different levels of input and cognitive engagement to master within themselves while having absolutely no transferable skills between them.

It's so obvious that I genuinely no longer know if the people who say these things are being genuine or just pretending to be retarded.

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>tfw have trouble trying to find characters to play in regular fighting games because no one is immediately as fun as marth or fox

>>386038269
the creator itself says it is not a fighting game. It is a party brawler. Just because you can tweak lots of options to try to make it more like a fighting game does not mean it is a fighting game.

YES IT IS

FUCK I LOVE MARTH

>marthvsfox.gif

>>386050310
>tfw no one will be fox in any game ever
Fuck it hurts man. Fox is so damn fun and just so good to play.

>>386049878
>The Melee Gods on the other hand can't even translate their skills properly to other Smash games.
Isai is one of the best 64 players and was considered best at Melee at one point.
Armada could easily be the best in both Melee and PM.
Zero is pretty strong in Melee, Brawl and WiiU.
M2K is super strong in pretty much every Smash game there is, even shit like Super Smash Flash.

Skills outside Smash rarely translate well into traditional fighting games and the other way around.

>>386049878
yes but the other games Daigo plays follow the same infrastructure of the main game he plays. he isn't learning an entirely new game, for the most part your muscle memory would still be relevant and all you'd have to do is learn the character/matchup meta.

>you fight in it
>but it's not a street fighter clone so it's a (((party game)))

>>386038269
HOW CAN IT BE A FIGHTING GAME IF THERE AREN'T HEALTH BARS?

>>386041024
>No it's just not balanced at all.
Melee is definitely not the most balanced game out there, but the "lol only 3 good characters" meme comes from
1. The retardedly high skill ceiling. In locals/regionals you'll regularly see over half of the cast getting played sometime during the tournament and often to decent results, but as the skill level gets higher a lot of weaknesses those characters have get exploited more easily and often by other players
2. People only looking at who wins major tournaments, and maybe the top 3 if they want to dig a little deeper. Because of said skill ceiling, there's only a few people who can regularly win majors, and because of that you see less characters at the very top, and going down the ranks a bit shows a lot more characters being played and placing top 16 at majors, generally down to around #10 on the tier list
Everyone just sees the absolute top tier players going at it with mostly the same characters and assumes that it must be that way because the balance is a complete dumpster fire, while the balance isn't very great it's mostly the end result of a small group of turbo-autists breaking their wrists for over a decade to figure out how to out-play each other.

>>386050701
I'm convinced most people here aren't actually serious and just trying to fuck with everyone else.

>>386050464
fuckin Ralph is considered the top RoA player and he's like 19th on the norcal PR.

>>386050753
So if i made a game where people hit each other and their body parts eventually stops functioning from damage it isn't a fighting game?

>>386050292
Both are fighting games you spaz. I'm not asking why a CSS pro or a LoL Star doesn't dominate in Street Fighter, that much is obvious.

A more fair comparison is why a pro Rugby player isn't also good at Football (which a lot are).

Or why a UFC fighter can't fight a pro Boxer (which is actually fucking happening).

>>386049286
That was after evo at some hyperx event they did for fun. Jenga, SF players playing smash, smash players playing SF, arms, etc.

>>386050960
a Mario Kart 8 streamer is top 5 in the world :^)

>>386050960
>Both are fighting games you spaz.
Football and golf are both sports. Watches and cakes are both products that are made.

There's far more differntiation between Smash and other fighters than Rugby and football. Same with boxing and MMA.

The bottom line is that two different tasks can have completely different levels of input and cognitive engagement to master within themselves while having absolutely no transferable skills between them.

>>386050898
No its not

>>386051250
You're a fucking idiot
>they're both sports
And LoL and CSS are both eSports. I guess that by your definition, CSS players should be able to do well in LoL or Starcraft.

Fucking retard.

Smash is featured at EVO with other fighting games. People who play MK can play KI can play Mahvel can play Tekken can play Guilty Gear can play SF. Yet only Smashfags stick to their corner and refuse to play anything not Smash.

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>>386038269

>>386050797
Memes aside I don't think most people care too much about how good Fox is and how overrepresented he is in high tier competitive play. It's that a large section of the cast is effectively in the "don't" tier that makes it bad.

>>386051576
> I guess that by your definition, CSS players should be able to do well in LoL or Starcraft.
No that's the exact opposite of everything I just said.

Try reading once in a while.

> Yet only Smashfags stick to their corner and refuse to play anything not Smash.
Except lots of Smash players also have fun playing other fighting games, and other games in general. As well you can say "Only non-Smashfags stick to their corner and refuse to play Smash." You can say that because you're a retard who cannot read and also doesn't know anything about what they're trying to talk about.

You've used up your (You)s from me already because you are a cock-inhaling ignoramus and there's literally nothing to be gained from trying to interact with you when you're not even on the basic level of understanding what is going on around you in the discussion and with fighting games in general.

>>386051576
>I guess that by your definition, CSS players should be able to do well in LoL or Starcraft.
anon are you retarded because his point was that things like that don't have any skills that apply to the other

>>386048729
>>386048729
I'm talking about the individual actions the characters make in game. A SHFFL requires many inputs to perform but the action the character is making is just one motion with one purpose to fulfill. It's just landing an aerial in a quick succession close to the ground. A simple way of saying it that it's better to focus on what the character is doing not the player who is making the character move.

It's a decent party game, but worms and Mario Party are better

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>>386038269
Who cares? Melee is my favorite competitive game to play and watch, but I have no interest in actual fighting games. When Melee is at real FGC tournaments like EVO, I only watch Melee and then stop watching when it's over. I don't really care if Melee is a fighting game or a party game or whatever, it's Melee. The FGC's opinion of it is completely meaningless to me.

>>386052090
Worms actually kind of sucks as a party game, it's turn based and boring for anyone not currently playing. Plus it's kind of hard to see when playing on a TV, I nominate Ultimate Chicken Horse instead. It's fantastic as a game to play online while talking though.

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>>386052070
>A SHFFL requires many inputs to perform but the action the character is making is just one motion with one purpose to fulfill.

That's like saying an entire half-lifebar 1frame-links combo in USFIV is one "action". Like, holy shit anon.

>>386052070
>A SHFFL requires many inputs to perform but the action the character is making is just one motion with one purpose to fulfill
>you jump
>you fast fall
>you lazer
>1 function

>>386053120
>shffl means
>Short hop
>fast fall
>Laser
hm, really makes you think huh?

>>386052070
the character still makes 3 separate movements you retard. you being too slow to see it doesnt mean it doesnt happen. thats 3 separate actions with 3 intervals in which it can go wrong

>>386052587
the netplay leffen/mang0 stock on yoshis that leffen had pinned on twitter is the nuttiest melee

>>386038269
Its has all the elements of a fighting game except the main purpose of a fighting game.

I'll always call it a party game as it pisses people off.

>>386051704
>It's that a large section of the cast is effectively in the "don't" tier that makes it bad.
As I said, the balance definitely isn't that good, but you have about half of the roster playable until you get to the very top tier. At EVO this year there was a Luigi (the official halfway point of the tier list) tied for 25th. 13 places down the tier list and at a pretty respectable position in the biggest tournament of the year. Go a single tier up and you have a Samus (10th in the tier list) in the top 18. While a lot of the low tier characters are near unplayable garbage, at least half the cast is perfectly serviceable until you're at the very top.

>>386053120
>>386053243
SHFFL means short-hop, fastfall, L-cancel.

>>386053243
shffl means

short hop
fast fall
l cancel

>>386053749
>>386053774
that's the point dip shit. He said lazer while trying to explain shffl.

Yeah it is, just because the people who play it aren't part of the FGC doesn't mean that it's not a fighting game. It's main stage at EVO, people pay to play it, it is a competition to be #1, it is a competitive game.

>>386053662
>I'll always call it a party game as it pisses people off.
But that just makes you look stupid.

I mean I guess calling a cow a horse would piss off farmers but if your strategy is pretending to be retarded to get a reaction then you might as well just be a real retard.

>>386052070
i mean even a shffl can be more complicated than that, depending on your timing/hitting another character/follow ups. melee just really shouldn't be quantified by way of "things your character is doing" because there's more to the game than that. i said it earlier but something like grabbing the ledge can be a complicated matter with multiple options and inputs.

>>386053868
Respond with your own words next time instead of a meme and maybe more people will understand you.

>>386053749
>>386053774
Kek

Those guys were defending Melee too, so I don't even know what to say...

Not a fighting game.

It's a casual party game.

>>386054034
I'm not reading 150 replies of this shit. I saw someone make an error so I corrected them.

Charizard is the best

>>386053647
https://twitter.com/TSM_Leffen/status/882020701820993536

>>386053892
an example of this is something like a strategy I heard someone talking about during a Chu match, where he puts up a light shield with one climber and hard shield with the other, with the purpose of making someone mess up their L-cancel on something like a SHFFL drill with fox. it isn't just "i learned the muscle memory and can do it perfectly every time", there's context within a match in how to use it.

>>386054542
i watched it 5 more times after you linked it. love this game

>>386053716
Half the cast being unplayable is pretty damn bad though. And although I'm not going to try to argue this in depth since I know fuckall about melee but aren't there some really oppressive matchups even among the playable half?

>>386054542
holy shit, that was beautiful.

>>386054809
yes, a big one being ICies/Peach or Puff. it doesn't stop someone like Chu beating M2K/taking games off Armada/Hbox. It's all possible but just way more difficult to the point where they'd rather switch characters than grind the match up.

>>386054809
In higher tiers it isn't. Jigglypuff wins despite being the top of top tiers. Armada peach beats a shit ton of fox's as long as he doesn't choke. I agree that half the cast being trash is bad but saying that high tier and even mid tier characters are oppressed is silly.

>>386055082
this all would've been lost if mango had just f-smashed instead of d-smash after the dair

>>386055220
>Jigglypuff wins despite being the top of top tiers
Did I just have a seizure, I meant the bottom of top tiers.
>>386055245
True but it was still beautiful. I don't usually follow people on twitter so I don't see this stuff.

>>386055348
oh no i totally agree it's just funny that we got that stock because mango played with his food basically. i don't follow any of these guys, i mainly watch the highlight clips from tourneys/streams.wanted to check out lef being a baby after some loss a while back and caught that as his pinned tweet and it made me play netplay for 3 hours

>>386054809
While it's true that Melee's tier list is pretty decisive, it's also not relevant until the highest levels of optimal play.

Sheik ruins half the roster, but only if the Sheik is really good. There was a player named Taj who played Mewtwo into top 32 last Big House, who is by all means a shit character. This is possible because even the lowest tier characters have absolutely insane punish games if optimized. The tier list is more based around neutral, pressure, and recovery, because Melee is so punishing that pretty much every character can fuck everyone else up. Donkey Kong would almost invalidate people as hard as Sheik if he had needles given his grab combos. And you can watch M2K ram Axe, another top player, with Pichu, and JV5 people in pools with Pichu.

Half the cast isn't really unplayable at any level most people are ever going to play at.

>>386053868
That's a bad example then. Lasers autocancel, there's no L-cancel involved

>>386054809
Still better than Marvel 2. For balance among the top tiers the top six or so characters are pretty even against each other. With the exception of Fox>Puff and Puff>Peach. Lower out on the tier list we have the generalization of floaties being weak against Fox, Puff, Sheik and Falcon. Fast fallers struggling against Marth. And characters weak to crouch canceling getting wobbled by Ice Climbers.

>>386055608
That's the point. L doesn't stand for laser it stands for L-cancel.

>>386055583
don't forget that time Armada almost 0-deathed Mangos fox with G&W at that summit iron man.

do any of you guys play tekken?

>>386055891
me

>>386053875
Except that's a bad example because this was designed as and is a party game, there is no contention there, the only argument is if it extends far enough into fighting game classification to have the title of an actual fighting game or not

>>386055891
Been playing a tiny bit at a friends house.It's a bunch of fun.

>>386052798
No it isn't you are just too stupid to understand what I mean. Stop using Street FIghter logic in a fucking Smash game. Combos require many different actions like punches and kicks. Each serves one purpose. Same for a SHFFL except it requires to put in more inputs.

>>386055967
>Except that's a bad example because this was designed as and is a party game
Party game isn't a real genre.

Super Smash Brothers 64 started off as a generic polygon fighter they added Nintendo characters to to sell.

Melee specifically was designed as a fighting game that can be accessible to low skill players and still rewarding to high skill.

Later games lowered the skill ceiling.

These are the facts that are uncontentious.

>>386053120
function or action it's the same one goddamn motion that requires much more inputs. How does this not compute to you?

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Here's a screencap.

>>386055891
Tekken is great but I can't believe how many people sandbag in that game.

Any time I face a bad motherfucker they're always just toying with me.

>purposefully dropping strings on me
>purposefully not block punishing

I get it, I'm bad at the game. Your sandbagging won't help. It will only warp my perception of the game.

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>>386056451
And here's a passive-aggressive screencap.

>>386053448
All for just one purpose. An attack. By the way it's four.
>short hop
>aerial
>fastfall
>l-cancel

Don't tell me I'm slow when you don't even detect every input required to perform one.

>>386056270
No you're too stupid to express yourself competently.

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>>386055963
>>386056015
>>386056454
who do you guys play in melee? I have no clue who to play so I'm trying to get ideas

>>386056691
Yoshi

>game has more shitposters than people who play it

>>386056691
If you don't know what character to play, just look through MeleeTutorial's playlist.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLoU3TQBakHOq6EHo-Hs35bOlTRQnp5q6p

They have good, short videos on the basics of most viable characters. If you want low tiers, there's probably similar videos out there. It mostly depends on what kind of person you are and what playstyle you have.

>>386056691
I personally play fast characters like fox and Falcon. I also really like Peach but she isn't a fast character.

>>386056691
fuckin LUIGI

>>386052798
By your logic a 360 command grab is nine actions. I guess Blazblue is the most technical game ever made now because Bullet's full Serpentine Assault is 53 actions.

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>>386056998
>luigi is so much fun to play
>i can only win with falcon
wat do?

>>386053892
Well when I look at the game I don't think of the inputs. I think of what is being shown on the screen. When Westballz did that 0-death on S2J on Battlefield I was looking at what Falco was doing. Not the inputs Westballz was pressing to make what Falco was doing.
>>386054614
Yes you have a point on muscle memory. Lets say you try to SHFFL but instead decide not to fast fall to stay air born to avoid getting hit by a particular move like a dash attack. Even if you removed one input it still is just a character performing an one aerial. Just in a different fashion for a specific reason.

>>386056691
I can play everyone in the top 8 with the same level of consistency, but my best character is falco.

Any EUfags up for netplay?

>>386057239
have you tried using nair :^)

>>386057197
No. It's two actions, a single motion of the joystick from neutral position and a button press.

A SHFFL aerial is:
>1 X or Y button press
>1 motion to a direction from neutral on the analog stick plus 1 button input
OR
>1 motion on the C-stick
OR
>1 button press for a neutral aerial
>(optional but usually necessary) 1 or more inputs from neutral to a precise position on the analog stick to adjust character analog drift and positioning of the aerial
>1 input from neutral downwards to fastfall on analog stick
>1 button press of L or R or Z to L-cancel within 6 frames of landing
>repeat

As well the timing of each of these things and the placement of the inputs on the analog control stick will vary literally based on the frame and pixel in which the hitboxes collide with shields or hurtboxes which will then change the nature of each action.

>>386047119
>I don't see how calling it a fighting game would be some kind of badge of honor because melee is much better than fighting games.
Disregarding the last statement, I'm with you. I don't know why it's such a point of contention especially among Smash players, as so few of them have any actual respect for or interest in the pillars of the genre, as evidenced in anon's post. What exactly do Smash players hope to gain from being categorized as a fighting game rather than whatever else?

>>386056691
Sheik in Melee, Asuka in Tekken.

>>386057292
if you look at the game and don't look for specific inputs then you're missing out on a ton of meta that revolves around it. sure every peach can use the float but someone like Armada knows exactly when and for how long to do it to maximize his damage/punish potential. this isn't even taking into account things like reverse hits, auto-cancels, edge cancels, etc. something as simple as an aerial is just a small piece of a complicated read/reaction "combo", with many aerials having more usage than "oh i hit that guy he took 12%"

>>386048694
>Because its fans play the game instead of claiming that they love the series while dumping softcore porn and there is no one in the thread setting up a lobby to play?
That's a weird way to say "watch streams and jack off about the 'gods' that they develop bizarre attachments to"

I still don't understand why other smashers even care about validation from the FGC. The majority of them hate us so why should we give a shit about it, who cares if Smash is a fighting game or not, I like playing it and also like playing other fighting games like Guilty Gear.

>>386058083
They want to be part of the cool kids table.

>>386058593
honestly i feel like most people who play smash could really give a shit. there's tons of comments in this thread that are obvious bait that go un(You)d

>>386058346
FGCucks jack off to 'lord' Daigo and Aris just as much. Don't pretend like the players aren't a huge part of what makes any competitive interesting

If I play Ryu in Smash 4?

>>386058162
>>386058162
You are correct on that. But only when really talking about how intricate Melee is with knowing what do do with each move and when to do it. That doesn't really explain how fast Melee is. Peach floating is just one action that can be used in a shit ton of ways. That doesn't show speed that shows options. Going from one thing to another constantly in quick succession is what makes speed.

Like a ken combo. It requires 4 inputs including DI to perform but those inputs only serve for a two hit combo. It just so happens that particular two hit combo can be used in different ways. Hell sometimes you don't need to jump again to land the dair making it only 3 inputs but the combo is still the same damn thing and it doesn't make the combo any slower.

>>386059008
i guess i just don't understand why you're putting the game into this box where "hits" are the only thing that define how fast the game is. if you want "speed" just watch hax vs nintendude i guess

>>386058593
It's a weird thing, as the validation already exists. I have yet to meet a competitor on either side of the fence who didn't respect people tried hard to compete in their game of choice. It's only online where I see the shit flinging. So it's really more about people who watch a game wanting validation from people who watch a different game.

>>386058083
Whenever I see the argument of whether smash is a fighting game or not (other than this bait thread) is when a FGCuck barges into a melee thread with 'lul not a fighting game' as if anyone gives a shit.

Do you really think melee players are sitting around thinking "FUCK why aren't we considered a fighting game!??! This is disastrous, we need to suck up to FGC guys that do absolutely nothing helpful to our community but constantly trash us so some online shitposters think we're cool"?

I know it's hard to imagine a community that actually likes the games they play and don't throw a shitfit about other unrelated bullshit because they have nothing interesting to play

>>386049205
Your question doesn't make sense but I will answer anyways. It goes both ways, in France, some Brawl top players (which is arguably even less technical than Melee) were also MVC3 top players or KoF top players, and some started competition with smash while some others started with other games...

Though, truth be told this whole debate of Smash vs traditionnal fighting games was never really proeminent in my country. Most people don't give a fuck and just play the game if they like it without sperging about how much of a fighting game this is.

>>386038269
party game that was shoehorned into a piss-poor fighting game by the worst community of retards video game ever saw.

>>386059450
It's not just hits. It's anything that can be done right down to dash dancing. It's just inputs alone don't define how fast the game is. It's being able to perform any sequence of actions in quick succession. Whether it is a hit or not.

This conversation is getting kind of beyond what it really needed to be. Sry about the confusion anon.

>>386049389
The reason we have these threads all the time is because Smash is regularly featured at fighting game tournaments and the FGC doesn't like the Smash community.
It's basically just this. The Smash community and the traditional FGC don't get along well for stupid reasons.
Funny thing is that the actual competitive players of each game are not even slightly interested in this argument most of the time.

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Can anyone in this thread give me the definition of fighting game?
Doesn't have to be long or complicated. Just what a game needs to be or include in order to be a fighting game.

>>386059980
it's all good my dude, had some fun talking about this either way. yeah i got carried away in trying to explain what i thought you were asking.

>>386060102
>>386049389
>the FGC doesn't like the Smash community

But that's literally just a /v/ meme.

>>386060168
Super Turbo template

>>386060275
is tekken not a fighting game then?

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>>386038269
If the new Papa Nier Vs Marvel Space lesbian game can be classed a fighter so can Smash.

>>386060391
No, it's a clown simulator. Street Fighter only.

>>386060391
It goes by Super Turbo template.

>>386060102
>The Smash community and the traditional FGC don't get along well for stupid reasons.
The smash community constantly acting like babies isn't a stupid reason. Every god damn year they cry about Evo being BO3 until finals and every year they have to be told that it doing so would let less games be on Sunday, which they also bitch about when a Smash doesn't make it.

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The worlds most popular fighting game is ALSO a party game with a homoerotic balloon creature that does nothing but suck on things. Deal with it.

>>386060637
then just don't go into smash threads or watch smash at evo???

>>386060637
The BO3 situation is clearly not that bad. It's just that even most regionals set in BO5 so some players would like EVO to be the same. Of course some players will complain about that on Twitter, but I'm pretty sure the vast majority has accepted that on such a large scale multi games tournament, it's just a logical condition.
Also there are shitters in any community.