How do you stop power creep in gaming?

>>385780306

Pic not related, obviously

>>385780306
1. Release balanced game to start with
2. DON'T FUCK WITH IT!

Hearthstone failed on both accounts

>>385780306
Rotating what sets are legal, and making sure that new cards you release are weaker?

>>385780306
While that card might be stupid bullshit in a game that has no graveyard, it is a total garbage card.

For power creep you want something else from this xpac, but it'll take me a bit to find one. This xpac has mostly been "cards from previous xpacs, but worse"

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>>385780704
This or the warrior weapon that is effectively two 3dmg swipes.

Man this set is turbo garbo so far, it really is entertaining how blizzard manages to fuck up in new and unique ways with every xpac, making the game even worse with every one. It is a beautiful thing to see, can't imagine playing it.

>>385780306
That card is fun, not good. Meanwhile, three classes have the potential to have decks that can never run out.

>>385780460

But then how do you make money

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>>385780819
can this target itself? havent played for ages.

>>385780819
Eh, Un'goro was probably the best the game has ever been since vanilla

Take solace in knowing that it can't possibly be worse than Yu Gi Oh

>>385780873
>fun
It is quite literally discard a random card from your opponent's deck.
You don't do anything
Your opponent doesn't do anything.

It is just play a shitty card and have a chance of making the game incredibly unfun for your opponent because you might trash something they really wanted, maybe. Generally it will do nothing or almost nothing or even help your opponent.

>>385781016
>Months of Quest Rogue

>>385780951
Battlecries activate before minions are placed on the board.

>>385780460
Are you fucking retarded?

>>385780548
Close.

Rotating older sets out, and making new sets rely on mechanics from older set.

This way the new set will be better because it will have synergy with a mechanic from sets still playable, while those will lost a punch from the older set leaving play.

by fattening the pool of attractive neutral cards, ensuring that class cards will never completely take over like they did during kharazan (shamanstone)
it helps that they're not doing any more solo adventures (which had a disparagingly large quantity of class cards)

>>385781086
cheers m8, thats probably a bit more fairer because a common 7 drop 9/9 taunt seems absurd.

>>385781212
>Rotating older sets out, and making new sets rely on mechanics from older set.

There is a grand total of 1 mechanic that has survived its own set. Discover.
every single other mechanic brought in a set has died with that set.

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>>385781016
Un'goro and looking to be Frozen Thrones issue is underpowered class uniques next to stuff that's on par with Alex and Grom. Best example every quest that isn't rogue or hunter failed miserably. Druid quest isn't even run in the big druid deck since it drops the chances of early wild growth. In the new expansion it's the same shit with the hunter deathknight adding an expensive card to your hand and consecrating the enemy board while the shaman knight is this bs.

>>385781289
Except it is still a 9/9 taunt if you have anything on the board.

Honestly though, after spikeridge steed (give something +2/6, taunt, and DR: 2/6 taunt for 6mp) it really isn't surprising at all.

The power creep is bursty and completely fucking ridiculous.

>>385781429
meant to say quest rogue or quest warrior but the point stands

>>385781429
>or hunter
hunter is good?

>>385781301
Im not telling you how hearthstone works, im telling you how to avoid power creep.

Blizzard doesnt give a shit about hearthstone as a balanced game. They just want the average joe to feel epic with rng bullshit, and the sad thing is that its working.

>>385781516
I know, I just noticed the sentence and wanted to point it out.

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>>385780306

Question; Will we get alt DK art for non-vanilla heroes like Magni and Liadrin? I doubt they'd put that much effort in but it would be a niced surprise.
Also Rogue DK when?

>>385781301
?

Joust is the only other unique mechanic and dragon synergy cards have been in every set except un'goro

>>385781429
I don't understand?
Are you saying that either one of those DK's is good?

The HU is awful because it's 5mp consecrate and the hero power means you can't even drop what you make on curve. It's really bad.

The Shaman one is just super win more card. Basically useless unless you've got a great board, at which point it is a bloodlust that gives your opponent a turn to stop it (unless you lowroll and kill yourself). The hero power is basically worse than the normal hero power in many situations.

Dont create things that are straight upgrades over other things
If new mechanics overshadow older content update the older content to be more in line with everything else

but powercreep brings in the money so that shit aint happening

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>>385781878
>Dont create things that are straight upgrades over other things
outa my fuckin way, straight power creep comin through

>>385781828
Joust, all 3 gadgetzans, mechs, inspire.
I cannot comment on evolve as this xpac is not done, but I would bet it will die like the rest due to its horrifically unbalanced RNG nature.

I am not counting c'thun or quest as they were basically made for their xpac and nothing else.

>>385782160
>No longer in Standard
WHO'S WINNING NOW YOU ICY PIECE OF SHIT?!

>>385780306
Either make content a linear progress system with no major way around it and divide players accordingly. In the case of Hearthshart, they could've divided players by the newest Expansion they bought packs/wings from.
>Decks with only Classic Cards can only face other Classic decks
>Naxx to Naxx
>GvG to Gvg
Etc. It ensures everyone is effectively on even footing, relatively speaking. Then they'd never have had to do the Wild/Standard split.

>>385781016

>ungoro
>rng on top of rng with adapt and discover

NO. It's the lowest point the game has ever been in.

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>>385781016
Ungoro has been pretty divisive, but the one thing it can be credited for is having a completely balanced meta. IIRC at one point no deck had above 52% winrate and every class saw play.

Kind of the opposite of what happened to shadowverse where one class hit 70% winrate with 40% playrate.

>>385782271
>Either
Fuck. Or make all content similarly powered. One problem with modern World of Warcraft and many other MMOs is you can just skip over half the content and go right to the strong shit. Then you wonder why all this earlier content is so easy, even on "Heroic" or whatever difficulty.

>>385781086
>It is just play a shitty card and have a chance of making the game incredibly unfun for your opponent because you might trash something they really wanted, maybe. Generally it will do nothing or almost nothing or even help your opponent.

Outside of a mill deck it does literally nothing. Every card that gets discarded is equivalent to a card that is never drawn in the first place, and there's 5-15 of those at the end of every game.

Your opponent could lose a legendary, but it's waayyyyyy more likely that they'll discard a common card and wind up one turn CLOSER to drawing that legendary.

>>385780460
you must not know much about card games, if you make the perfectly balanced game how do you sell new packs? you can say the yugioh answer which is make stronger cards have a downside but 10 years later you've slowly raised the power level to where people play the highest risk/reward cards because the reward is game winning.

>>385782393
>Warlock
>Hunter

stop lying man, those classes got their legs cut off and shoved down their throats.

>>385782282
>But that game i had where rng played in my favor, woooow amazing play
>And that youtuber that was so unlucky LOL
>HEARTHSTONES IS DA B3ST

>>385780306
I wanna get my dick sucked by that gnome

>>385782445
read the rest of the post

>It is just play a shitty card and have a chance of making the game incredibly unfun for your opponent because you might trash something they really wanted, maybe. Generally it will do nothing or almost nothing or even help your opponent.

>>385780306
>power creep
>on a minion that functionally has no effect unless the game makes it to fatigue, given to the class that is the absolute worst at fatigue battles because it's ability draws extra cards

How about no? Your example quite literally is a card that won't even see play in actual decks, it's just fucking weak.

>>385782282
>he thinks all rng is the same no matter the surrounding requirements and consequences

There is a difference between good and bad rng and there akways has been. Here's a hint it has to do with the cost in vs possible results. Implosion is bad rng because you are going out and rolling some dice on one of two people getting fucked, shadow visions is good rng because the player is making a choice and it is limited by the contents of his deck with some random variation on top so he can't pull what he wants all of the time.

>>385780306
Why would you stop power creep? Its perfectly fine in minor dosages, if you want bad examples, just look at shadowverse and yu-gioh.

>Noone cares for arena
Y-yeah guys, that game is so lame r-right??

>>385782481
>if you make the perfectly balanced game how do you sell new packs?

a good card game does not rely on new packs or rarity, it let's you buy the whole edition from start. This is why games like mtg, pokémon or yugi pander to people with gambling problems.

>>385780306
powercreep happens to keep a game interesting by adding new content without actually adding new content as it's difficult to constantly update a game.
I guess the only way to stop it would be to make a game designed simply and plan for new mechanics in advance.

>>385782725
Shadow Visions is possibly the one good example though.
Look at mage's discover or look at evolve in general.
Dr. 3 and Dr 7. the evolve beasts basically determine arena matches.

>>385780306
>Opponent removes cards from deck

This is a trap mechanic for idiots. It's only beneficial in a mill deck otherwise 9 times out of 10 your opponent will lose a trash card and get one draw closer to a legendary.

>>385782671
Gul'Dan's Death Knight will outright decide if this card is shit or not.

>>385781429
wowee, even MORE randumbness, how do these devs come up with such innovative ideas?! XD

>>385782873
Arena is the shittiest part of design in this game imaginable. It gets totally fucked on rarities with paladin and mage getting their bread and butter spells as commons while everyon else gets their overpowered stuff as rares and epics.

Primordial Glyphi imo is the only truly bad discover card in the whole set assuming you ignore the shitshow of arena balance.

>>385782817
please don't ever invest in business in any shape or form.

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>>385783017
The best part:
>Every other card they've shown for Shaman implied it'd be a freeze-based Death Knight

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>not just playing meme decks and having fun

I can't min/max in this game or I start raging.

>>385782817
Name one card game that involves building a deck prior to the game that does this and is still alive.

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This just got revealed.

>>385782493
Well it was mostly good. I honestly can't recall a recent expansion that has been better.

>>385783403

Is Blizzard legit killing their game with these nonstop random card effects?

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What's the most fun card in Hearthstone?

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>>385783470
Better than this shit from a few days ago.

>>385783505
see
>>385783215

>>385783470
Only when they're on good cards.
That card is complete garbage.

>>385782481
>>385780950
Making money was not part of the question, only powercreep was. Powercreep is how you monetize a ccg or related games.

>>385783078
fuck you businessfags ruining games

>>385780306
the more items you have the less valuable they become

>>385783606
>Play that 9 Mana spider thing Druid got as a Legendary and no other Deathrattles
>Play this after it dies
>BUILD WALL again

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>>385780306
I wanna fug that gnome

>>385783470
that's not all that random if you think about it

if only one deathrattle minion has died this game (and at 5 mana that's not terribly difficult to set up) then you guaranteed get that minion

but let's say it's later, you might get one in three or four, that's not even as bad as other random effects

>>385783078
>please don't ever invest in business in any shape or form.

I have already invested in a card game based on deckbuilding and not who has the bigger wallet to stand up to the metagame. Guess what? it's doing fine :*

But the question is "Will it make it in Zoo?" because god knows there isn't going to be any other warlock deck.

>>385783714
Read the card text.
Opponent's dead DR count as well.

>>385783829
I wasn't paying attention. Into the trash it goes.

>>385783470
Actually the RNG isn't looking nearly that bad this expansion or the last. It's very "controlled" if you understand.

>>385783827
Zoo is dead forever. Other classes can board flood better, everyone can cheaply clear a zoo board now, it has no reach without PO, and it has no good 2drops.

Really I can only see concedelock working right now.

>>385783714
>Playing another low tempo turn so you can hopefully get a trigger off a deathrattle.
I mean, even if your first Hadronox doesn't get polymorphed or silenced or w/e its still not very good.
I sincerely doubt Taunt Druid will be a thing.

>>385783505
Explore Un'goro

>>385783827
Zoo will be okay with it I think. Zoo needs whatever it can get at this point, though.

>>385780306
Standard rotation

>>385783161
The Shaman Death Knight IS Freeze based, you get to remove freezes when you evolve your things! :3c

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>>385780306
What are you comparing her exactly?
Also why isnt called "Gnomeferatus" like it probably should?

>>385784365
Stop it, you sound scarily like blizzard when you type like that.

>>385784375
The original translation (card was revealed in Gook) was Gnomish Vampire. Just like how Animated Berserker was originally translated as Fluffy Fiery Warrior.

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>>385784375
>What are you comparing her exactly?
This basically. There may be a few other examples though.

>>385784574
River croc is an upgrade :^)

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>>385784574
Which, is a Neutral card, so Specific class cards have always being superior.
Then That one is a Beast, which have its own direction.
While the Gnome isnt anything.

you could argue its better destroying a card from the oponent instead of being a beast.

But real powercreep would make that gnome into a beast [?] in the bed [/?] and usable for every class.

>>385780306
with your dick

it makes short work of gnome vampires due to their height getting wrecked by your dick

>>385784574
Class cards are more powerful in general though.

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>>385783794
>my opponents face when I have Loot Hoarders in my deck

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>>385780306
By playing better games.

>>385784574
>Neutral
Trash comparison, senpai.

>>385780306
>playing Hearthstone instead of Faeria
lol

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>>385784952
If you're really trying to disrupt that card then you gotta get this one in.

>>385784970
I hope you're not implying neutralverse / spawnverse is any better.

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>>385785078
https://shadowverse.com/news/?announce_id=336
Spawn and other shit just got nerfed

>>385784970
I loved SV until ToTG. I was a dragon and blood main, and having my class gimmicks completely gutted and made 'play card to do entire gimmick' was 100% unfun. Combine that with ramp dragon, which had been decent but not spectacular in baha, becoming cancer incarnate with 60-70% winrates on average and its worst matchups being 50/50, the game just hit the shitter at record speed.

It is no fun when they ruin their own gimmicks and make the fun decks so fucking overpowered that they're not fun to play.
You could win games easy with jack off talisman dragon for fuck's sake.

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I have being playing Fable Fortune Instead

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>>385784272
This, or Renounce Darkness.
A pair of cards and you already got a deck made for legit fun or getting stomped when meta walks in the door

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>>385785191
So it's neutralverse now where every game is playing mindlessly on curve.

Nice.

>>385785191
>https://shadowverse.com/news/?announce_id=336
superior shadowcraft is back on the menu boys!

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>>385785191
>We nerfed dragon because fuck dragons

>>385783362

Deck Building games are a thing, you know?

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Unless you start outright removing things with a shitty format system you don't.
There's also the Buddyfight route of having broken shit be so common earlier in the game's life that the creep doesn't feel near as heavy

>>385784574
this is a beast, the other is not

beasts have synergy with other cards

>>385786013
Don't deck building games typically fail to meet the "involves building a deck prior to the game" criteria he was asking about?

The best example is Fantasy Flight's "Living Card Games" like Android Netrunner.

>>385784574
Class cards are usually more powerful, and river croc has beast synergy.
Bad comparison.

>thinking this deck diluting do nothing card is good

>>385782481
>Yugioh
>Slowly raised power level
You joking? After Soul of the Duelist that shit took of so fucking fast you couldn't even use creep to describe the pacing of the sheer stupidity the game underwent.

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>>385780306
dont ever play yugioh

>>385786261
>implying this shit hasn't been permabanned since yugioh's inception

>>385786536
its always been unlimited, the heck you talking about

>>385786148
>tfw the L5R lcg still isn't out

>>385785416
u need ysharaj and barnes also tho

>>385786261
bug decks in old school yugioh were so fucking stupid, holy shit

needle worm wasn't the half of it

Every time I look at the new HS cards I'm glad I quit. Their designs are so bad it actually kind of pisses me off.

>>385782445

>Outside of a mill deck it does literally nothing.

It fucks with combo decks much like Dirty Rat, so its not as weak as it seems. "Force the enemy player to discard a card"-effect is pretty powerful in Magic, so it has potential in Hearthstone.

>>385787221
Nope. Discarding from the hand is completely different from losing a card from the deck.

>>385785212
So much of fucking this
When I installed the game back on PC release Shadowcraft was so much fun because you could do some really whacky decks (Other than Howl + Cerberus shit). Shadow kept getting buffs every xpac until it got a turn 3 win condition into turn 7 better win condition with no counterplay whatsoever; Necromancy is not even a mechanic anymore.

this is good
I don't want rogue to be the one class that can build a mill deck
I hope they add more shit like this

>>385786536
this is at 3 and has never once been at another number you dumb fuck.

>>385787291

Yet it still fucks with combo decks. Freeze mage for instance have a lot of cards they could discard and instantly lose the game. Use in conjuction with Dirty Rat and you have a much higher chance of making the enemy deck useless.

Only reason its going to be kinda shit is that its in Warlock.

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hi

>>385787478
Not really. It's hardly better than a card that put the top card of their deck at the bottom. There are not many combo decks, even in HS, that consistently draw every card in their deck.

>>385787509
he's bad thou. I wouldn't even run him in B/R tribal

>>385783505
>playing against nilfgaard as scoia'tael
>nilfgaard fag uses treason and steals my Toruviel
>instant rage quit

People complain about nilfgaard but they're the most troll faction with mill tactics

>>385787509
>not in a draft format that has madness
It could have been insane in some decks.

>>385787556

>There are not many combo decks, even in HS, that consistently draw every card in their deck.

But there are combo decks that stall the game until they get what they want, like Freeze Mage. And against those kind of decks losing a vital card hurts the deck tremendously. If the discard hits Antonidas, Freeze Mage loses instantly. If you hit Ice Block, or any freeze spells, you're already making it a whole lot more difficult for him to control the board.

Like if the card was on Warrior or Rogue, it would be broken as fuck. If Warlock would have any actually reliable sustain whatsoever, that would make this card really powerful.

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>>385780306
That card isn't power creep, most of the time its effect benefits your opponent more than it benefits you, as it means there's less shitty filler for them to draw instead of what they want.

>>385788062
You're not understanding me. Even Freeze Mage can't usually afford to go to the very last card of their deck. Would you run a card whose effect was, "shuffle your opponent's deck"? No, of course not, it's basically pointless. And yet, in 95% of cases, it would be just as likely to put a combo piece out of their reach as this. This effect is not as strong as you believe.

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>>385785416
>tfw you never play meta netdecks
and somehow i still win and have fun

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>>385780306
Why is heart stone art so shit?

>>385788257
Is this a brawl?

>>385788282

>This effect is not as strong as you believe.

It is but in very specific scenarios and against specific decks. Against a less combo-reliant deck its obviously useless.

>>385788537
I've explained to you why it isn't effective against combo decks either, but I guess it was a little too hard for you.

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>hearthstone babbies are finally getting used to real card game mechanics
Boy, what's next? Will they finally get some fucking player interaction?

>>385787221
>"Force the enemy player to discard a card"-effect is pretty powerful in Magic, so it has potential in Hearthstone.

What? No it's not. Outside of MTG Mill Decks it's even more useless than in Hearthstone. You're actually more likely to help your opponent if they have decks with graveyard interaction, which many do these days.

In fact, one of the most powerful cards ever printed lets YOU discard cards from your OWN DECK, and thats a massive advantage.

>>385788975
Thoughtseize is still pretty expensive, bro

>>385788641
>mill effects mattering in MTG

Good jokes anon, tell me more tales from the kitchen table.

>>385789050
Thoughseize is discard from hand, and you choose the card. How is that even remotely comparable to discarding the top card of the deck/library?

>>385788641
>needlessly saying "his or her"
>Not just saying "their"

>>385789213
I agree that he's wrong to conflate mill with discard, but he's clearly talking about Dirty Rat there and actually means discard.

>>385789242
They're making it clear that no genderqueers are allowed

>>385789303
He's talking about both of them being disruptive elements to elaborate combo decks by attacking both the hand and deck.

>>385789242
The MTG rules committee has a weird boner for wording everything like a contract. It's also why it's such a bitch for the designers to put out wacky effects.

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>>385789105
Sure thing.

>>385789242
"their" is actually not correct grammar.

>>385789464
Right, he shouldn't conflate them. But he mentions Dirty Rat and then says that discard is a powerful effect in MtG, which is accurate. Also, nobody calls mill "discard from the deck"

>>385789515
>"their" is actually not correct grammar.
It is, and has been since Austen's time. Even most prescriptivists have given up that battle.

>>385789515
Mill specific decks are a separate thing. But they also suck.

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>>385780306
I want to fuck this power creep

>>385780306
Stop playing bullshit games that make a business out of providing incremental updates.
Power creep only exists because they need to goad people into buying their latest releases by making it outstrip the power of everything before it.

There's nothing wrong with power creep.

>>385785416
>tfw I play this in Wild


Destroying constructed decks with this shit is pure gold.

>>385789575
The rules text is in essence an instructive narrator, in which case "their" doesn't work.

>>385788336
Most of it is just fanart

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>>385789478
Which is funny because the new set has a card that infinitely exiles itself, thus drawing the game.

>When Hostage Taker enters the battlefield, exile target artifact or creature until Hostage Taker leaves the battlefield. You may cast that card for as long as it remains exiled and you may spend mana as though it were mana of any type to cast that spell.

>>385790001
If you purposely set it in motion it counts as your loss.

>>385789583
>But they also suck.
You never experienced milling someone for 40+ cards. Milling is fun as fuck and can shut people down completely with shit like lantern of insight.

>>385790001
I hate that this is a 2/1

>>385790082
Nope, draw.

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Make a 10 mana card that discard half the deck.

>>385790082
>>385790223
Ends in a draw:

>8/25/2015: In some very rare situations, Aligned Hedron Network may enter the battlefield as a creature with power 5 or greater. If this happens, Aligned Hedron Network will exile itself along with other creatures with power 5 or greater. Those cards will immediately return to the battlefield. If this causes a loop with Aligned Hedron Network continually exiling and returning itself, the game will be a draw unless a player breaks the loop somehow.

>>385790001
Only lasts until either you run out of mana for recasting it or your opponent counters it when you recast it.

>>385790556
Infinite mana isnt hard to achive

>>385790556
>>385790682
HS = Hostage Taker

>HS enters battlefield
>he's the only creature
>his effect is on the stack, something MUST be exiled (no "may")
>I must target HS to be exiled
>HS has now left the battlefield
>I must return my target to the battlefield
>HS comes back and enters the battlefield
>ETB effect triggers again
>he exiles himself again
>etc etc

He doesn't NEED to be the only creature though. The player could just be a dick and draw the game by not targeting anything else, though that might be a rule somewhere (and if not that ends in a draw as well).

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>>385781016
>Not after brm
Fuck you the game had a lot of potential

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>>385780306

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>>385790226
I actually had an idea for a Hearthstone card that shuffled wisps into your deck to prevent fatigue. I thought it would be too strong unless it cost a lot of mana. Then those retards at Blizz made this abomination.

>>385790995
If there are other targets available and a player is forcing the loop for no benefit, he is guilty of slow play and can be actioned by a judge.

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>>385791564
While that's true, it still opens another can of worms with ETB effects.

Plus this should have been caught. It's an infinite within itself and the requirements for a draw are insanely easy. Clear board by turn 4-5? Easy. You just broke modern and standard in one card.

>>385789797
Isn't just "his" acceptable in this case then.

>>385792276
Women play the game too.

Not attractive women, sure, but women nonetheless.

>>385780306
What was the thought process behind this gnome?

Mill warlock is not a thing. If anything, you mill/fatigue yourself more because of your hero power.

>>385792358
"His" can actually be gender neutral.

>>385792537
the thought process probably was
"combo anything destroy warlock"
let give him a card hopping he can destroy the enemy combo
...
at the end it doesnt matter because warlock will end up dying anyway, so its balance

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>>385792587
>gender-neutral, singular "their" is ungrammatical
>gender-neutral fucking "his" is acceptable

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>>385790226
>tfw this plus Fraying Sanity

>>385793082
I kinda wanted to see this do well at PT, but then the fire nation attacked.