Why oldschool 2D graphics usually look so good and pleasant?

>>385507080
Those aren't 3D graphics, retard.
That's all 3D models rendered at specific angles and used as sprites.
That also answers your question about why it's not done any more. Once you have all the models for everything, there is no reason not to make your game 3D.

>>385507080
May I ask what game that is?

Its graphics are indeed very good and pleasant, OP.

want to say its Blitzkrieg II but I could be wrong.

>>385507453
He said 2D...

>>385507624
>>385507715
Sudden strike 2

>>385507786
2 is close to 3, but yeah, I fucked up writing that down.
Point stands. That's not 2D art and we don't get any more for the reasons presented.

>>385507080
its all in the art style really.

Since everyone is using default settings in unreal/or similiar game engines these days every game looks like the generic shooter 12.

Arcsys broke this trend by creating a completely different approach in how to render with unreal.

Artstyle was made by real artists in the past, now its whoever teen can do pixel art or had a devry degree.

>>385507840
TY, anon

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>>385507842
Pic related is based on 3D models. Would you say it isn't 2D?

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>>385508074
Rotoscoping is still worlds apart from simply rendering a model and then use it as a sprite.

It is all about the detail level. When there were sprites ans visible pixels they only had to care about approx detailing and people would always use their imagination to complete the missing information / grafics. Nowaydays the devs strive for photorealism and realistic elaboration of everything so you will judge them in a much harder detail level than you used to.

>>385507080
Short answer: they lack the imagination because they don't need it.

They were never limited to a certain capacity and even a limit on the number of colors the system can use and produce, so they were never forced to figure out how to make the most out of a given capacity.

3d always looks like puppet play, no matter how realistic, the uncanney valley is infinite (novelty gives the illusion that it is always just about to end).....
Sprite shit looks more like comics animation art play and comics were always in history more pleasing and popular than creepy puppet shows....

>>385510034
Oh well. The average gamer wants realism over art and style because for whatever fucked-up mental reason people want to project themselves into fiction and fantasy.

That's why everything needs "representation."

And it's killing any sense of art and style.

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>>385507080
Indie devs lack talent, ambition and drive. They never bothered to be good at anything, including art, and make video games because they think it will be easier than getting another job. Older games were generally made with passion and a determination to make good games. What you see now is mostly sub-fan fiction tier writing with a shoehorned message and little to no gameplay. The point isn't to make a good game - they don't even know what good games are because they don't play them. Instead the goal is the 'cred' of being a game dev and the normie cool points that go with it.

>>385507080
Well maybe because those games were made by professional studios?

>>385508425
patlabor?

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>>385510582
>Indie devs lack talent, ambition and drive.

Holy shit, do you know how fucking long it takes to make a video game?

If you actually got off your fat fucking ass and tried, you'd realize that it takes years for a one-man team to program something that's even 10~ hours long. These programmers often work with simple pixel art since they usually don't have the thousands necessary to pay a commercial artist.

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>>385510650
But now we have like 20 years of improved technology and you don't see games like that anymore

money
thats like saying why can't a YT hackjob replicate Citizen Kane

>>385510948
t. loser indie dev

doing pre-renders requires a small prerequiste of technicial knowledge
make a unity tutorial for it and i'm sure there'll be tons of prerendered games again

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>>385510948
>t. buttblasted indie dev
Why do indie games from 20 years ago look so much better than indie games today? It's almost like you're making excuses because you took it personally. Post pics of your shitty game.
pic related, it's you

>>385510740
Yes, the movies that have fuck all to do with Patlabor, but are beautiful in large part due to the heavy use of rotoscoping.

>>385511010
yes we improved technology now we don't need prerendered 3D because we have real 3D

>>385507080
How fucking hard can it be to form a proper interrogative sentence in the easiest language in the world?
>Why DO oldschool 2D graphics usually look so good and pleasant? Why CAN'T indie devs replicate it? Where DID all these artists GO?

>>385511241
ESL

>>385510582
Why are people on /v/ such AAA shills?

>>385510948
>These programmers often work with simple pixel art since they usually don't have the thousands necessary to pay a commercial artist.
You're basically admitting indie devs don't have the skill to make proper artwork.

>>385511354
Because of retards like you who think there's only AAA and indie with nothing inbetween

>>385510582
If it's so easy and indie devs are so terrible and lazy, why haven't YOU released the game of the year?

>>385511368
the skill floor for making video games has drastically lowered. There might be 100 or 1000 times more game developers than there used to be. The amount of talented developers is the same, there's just alot more shit ones getting their stuff on steam.

>>385511241
>>385511282
80% chance of bait.

>>385511413
Show me a recent good AA game.

>>385511486
The Surge
I'm not gonna get into a 60 post long argument whether it's good just because you feel the need to shitpost, so take it or leave it
Also,
>muh recent releases
Play through your hundreds of backlog and Steam games instead of buying new releases all the time, idiot

>>385511354
This is me >>385510582
AAA is pretty crappy recently as well, but this thread isn't about AAA, it's about indie devs now. Notice how in my previous post I lauded indie games of the past. With rare exception the indie devs of recent years are a totally different breed. Formerly they went out of their way to at least try to make their games look good and this was on bad hardware and using limited resources. Now devs have tons of tools at their disposal and instead focus on awful stories and plots that aren't even acceptable for community theater.

>>385511557
The Surge is a bad AAA game not a good AA game

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>>385511178
But pic related looks better than the average 3D game

>>385511578
Wow okay you're even more of an idiot than I thought. What do you think the cutoff point is? If you spend more than 50 bucks in marketing it's AAA?

>>385511586
agreed, I was just pointing out that better technology doesn't neccessarily mean better art

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>>385507080
Meanwhile jap indie spritework is still good. Not top tier, but still good.

>>385511421
>talent, ambition, drive
>easy
How did you get that from that post? Do you read at a fourth grade level?

I know that I have neither the talent, drive or ambition to make a good game, hence I don't bother doing so. My energies are focused elsewhere in areas that I am talented at and can actually do something worthwhile. Your post is fallacious; I'll leave it up to you to figure out how so.

>>385511560
It's the saturation of the market that's worse, not the indie devs. There are so many more games that there's bound to be more shit but just saying "indie devs these days are shit" is reductive and useless.

>>385511648
Developer size and production process
It may be a smaller company with a less successful game, but it's made like an AAA game with graphics comparible to other AAA games

>>385507080
They're nice and crisp, and leave more to the imagination

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>>385511750
>it's made like an AAA game
>muh graphics
Dumbest post of the year so far, good job

>>385511750
>Indie =/= Good Graphics
Thanks for taking my post >>385511486 and being a retard with it.

>>385511816
Yes, AAA isn't a measure of quality or even budget, it's a sector of the industry who develop particular games in a particular way

>>385507080
>Try to rip the graphics from these games to use for Red Alert 2 mod
>They're huge ass graphic sheets where every frame is in random place
Godspeed that guy making the WW2 mod who had the patience to go through the sprite sheets.

>>385511903
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AAA_(video_game_industry)
Go ahead and make your obligatory "w-well wikipedia is of course wrong, I use my own definition that no one else uses!" post, I'm done talking to you

>>385511856
I didn't say "good" graphics you bilthering retard I said graphics comparible to other AAA games ie. realistic highly rendered resource intensive artwork only the biggest studios can afford. It has nothing to do with quality

>>385511991
>waah don't reply to me I don't want to be proven wrong
just because the surge isn't the biggest release on the block doesn't mean it's not an AAA game. If you worked at that company in the game industry you'd say you worked at an AAA company. AA companies are like the ones who used to make things like niche PC games, like Firaxis with Civilization. They barely exist anymore

>>385511368
>You're basically admitting indie devs don't have the skill to make proper artwork.

You're right. They don't.

Studios require specialization, and one-man studios are going to consist of programmers since games are about gameplay, regardless of what IGN says. Occasionally, you'll get a Pixel (programmer dabbling in art and music), but he's a rarity. If you want an artist, you're going to have to pay for one. If you want music, you're going to have to hire a producer or license some music (the vastly cheaper option). Occasionally, a few friends with different skillsets will work together for free to make a game, but that's the exception. Usually, you're working with strangers you don't know that well, which means you'll have to pay in advance since no one likes working for free to maybe get money in the future.

Making video games is tedious work, and if you're an indie dev, it means you're doing it in your free time to maybe get some money out of it. There are plenty of people who get into it for the wrong reasons (like becoming an e-celeb or popular in the hipster crowd), but there are also people who do it out of love and see the money as a nice bonus. I leave it to /v/ to fill in those categories.

>>385511726
>I have neither the talent, drive or ambition to make a good game, hence I don't bother doing so.

So you admit you have no frame of reference for your argument, yet that spur you to ask yourself, "Gee, maybe I have no idea what I'm talking about."

>>385511732
Market saturation is definitely an issue, and the barrier for entry is pretty low nowadays, so you get lots of people in it for the wrong reasons.

>>385507080
>Why oldschool 2D graphics usually look so good and pleasant?
Made by professionals, under strict supervision and direction.
>Why indie devs can't replicate it?
Rather than being financed by big companies, they are people making games on their spare time, and there is no quarantee of their skill level.
>Where all these artist went?
Learned new skill-sets to be able to keep working on the industry. This has been happning for ages, when Doom team moved on to create Quake, art team had to learn how to work on 3D models because technology demanded that.

>>385511010
I wish lowpoly was more popular.

Still it only means working that much harder on your textures to make up for it.

Because making good looking 2D graphics takes just as much hard work and time as making good looking 3D graphics you fucking retard?

Because it depends on how much talent you can pay for, how many people can you get working on it etc...? Jesus, how dumb you are to have to fucking ask that?

>>385512569
Indie devs are just lazy. If they wanted their games to look good, they should just suck it up and learn how to draw.

I mean, how long does it really take to make pixel graphics for a simple RPG? A week tops?

>>385512642
games are hard to make and it takes years to make a decent one

>>385512642
OK, is this supposed to be irony, or are we actually dealing with some kind of serious retard invasion on /v/ right now.

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>>385511486
Shadow Tactics.

As a bonus, it is placed in a genre where all good previous games were strictly isometric 3D sprites.

>>385507080
Pretty sure sudden strike 2 uses voxels like RA2

>>385512642
If indie devs had skills to create graphics on level with classic games, they wouldn't be indie. You have the realize that they are most often making games in their free-time with the skill sets they have.
Very rarely do you have indie developer who is making games as full-time job without support of a publisher.

>>385511486
Nier Automata?

>>385512924
>If indie devs had skills to create graphics on level with classic games, they wouldn't be indie.
most people good at pixelshit these days are indies, it's not like there's a demand for it in the real game industry

>>385512782
Holy shit is this like Commando but with ninjas?
How does it fare against Commando 2?

>>385513081
Its pretty great.

>>385513081
>How does it fare against Commando 2?

It's the second best game in the genre without contest, with Commandos 2 being the first. Reach for the stars but know your place and all.

There's a demo you can try out, since it's in the vein of the Desperados games (no inventory, no interiors) which didn't set well with some people out there.
But yes, I highly recommend it. Even /v/ loved it to bits back at the end of 2016.

>>385513074
Skill in pixel graphics directly translates to skill in creating 2D raster art. And there is huge market for that in mobile games and other stuff like that.

>>385507080
I often ask myself the same thing

How do we replicate this look in 3d?

for example:
Red Alert 2 and Generals
>>385512782
is this isometric?

>>385513242
Thanks for the info, gotta try it out.
Shame about the interiors. Loved the feel of them in Commandos 2. Maybe in the sequel.

>>385513314
>Skill in pixel graphics directly translates to skill in creating 2D raster art.
only as far as any other art skills are interrelated, pixel art is a specialization in itself and the best pixel artists I know are indie and they don't do mobile shit

>>385512705
>>385512719
>>385512924
lazy indie devs detected

>>385513381
>for example:
>Red Alert 2 and Generals

Both Red Alert 2 and Generals are 3D games. Though Red Alert 2 still uses sprites for terrain, the units are 3D.

>is this isometric?
Almost. The camera does have some perspective left.

>>385513630
RA2 has voxel vehicles

>>385513551
Name indie devs that are not lazy.

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>>385513676
Exactly. Voxels are a failed form of 3D nowadays only used for terrain. Polygonal 3D prevailed because of a number of reasons, but at the time, Westwood made a 3D engine based on them.

It's how the vehicles can be bumped into air by explosions and stuff.

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>>385507080
>Where all these artist went?
to 3d modeling


>Why indie devs can't replicate it?
And honestly? It just takes to damn long to do or even learn when compared to 3d modeling. Most indie devs aint got much practice with sprite making so the time that it would take them to learn and do actually good work comparable to even 8 bit console era would be a tremendous investment of time that as indie devs they cant really afford.

So they could hire the art aspect out but adding personal is always a tremendous cost. And given that many 2d sprite artists have made the move to 3d art and new people just go to what has the most demand, again 3d modeling, there is just to many expenses and to little of pool that hence its smallness rises the cost even more if hiring out. So unless one is already adept at making that type of artwork then its really just way to expensive and/or time consuming to do an amicable job comparable to the 8/16 bit era especially for poor as fuck indie devs.

>>385513630
yeah, but it still looks good as hell.
Generals on the other hand isn't as cosmetic as Ra2 is.

So, how do we make Generals look good?

>>385513960
but Minecraft is voxels, lol

>>385514235
>So, how do we make Generals look good?

You don't. It's an old game that looked good for its age but couldn't work today.
It's been a big dilemma back when EA tried giving someone the power to make Generals 2.
The thing is, Generals is inherently cartoony as all hell, but portraying it cartoonishly would piss off hordes of people.
And so the team had this ongoing discussion from start to the project's termination about striking a balance between the two, making a modern Generals game while making sure not to look like a modern Generals game.

>>385514334
It's cubes with unfiltered textures

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>>385514334
Yeah, it's funny how Notch managed to plunge the already shallow public knowledge about CGI into new unprecedented depths with his ""voxels"".

>>385514882
How is it not voxels though. They are huge as fuck, but still can technically classify as ones.

>>385515034
3D models of cubes=/=voxels

>>385515081
It renders them as cubes with textures, but they are still voxels

>>385511010
Improved technology can't make subhuman trash indie devs to hire people to do actually good shit to render, have 15 pixels over a mspaint background and fuck you

>>385515034
>They are huge as fuck, but still can technically classify as ones.

That's not how it works.
They are ploygonal prisms. Nothing more, nothing less.

You can't rotate voxels, since voxels are the representation of the scene. If the character raises an arm and it makes the voxels beneath disappear while the ones above appear, that's when it's a voxel model.
When it simply goes rotates around an axis like a vector drawing, then it's obviously done by polygons.

>Why on Earth would you ever use voxels when, if you think about it, it's basically just infinite (read extremely high) resolution voxels in essence?
Voxels have their strength elsewhere and that is with the fact polygonal representations are still, you know, polygons made out of a high number of triangles.
Voxel engine can get a globe and represent it as a globe instead of tons of triangles trying to look like a globe.

>>385511720
>jap indie spritework is still good
I don't think you know what "indie" means.

>>385515828
>I don't think you know what "indie" means.

Indie means they use pixel graphics.

American indie graphics are shit. Japanese indie graphics are amazing. Conclusion: American indie devs are lazy, uninspired fuckers who need to get their act together.

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>>385513081
It's practically the same thing, minus the interiors, detailed inventories for each characters and co-op.

It's suicide-postponing, making-you-believe-in-vidya-again good, anon. It even SOUNDS like Commandos. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6a4-swyTj4

Certain missions are ball-bustingly hard if you insist on going non-lethal.

>>385515985
try doing the city mission with 0 kills 0 alerts
one of the hardest and most rewarding things I've done in a video game

>>385516290
You mean the snow one? I think it's doable but you'd have to get inventive when trying to get the plans from the mission target, because you have to distract the samurai that are patrolling near him and the only way to do that (as far as I know) is to collapse a tower that requires killing some people.

>>385515985
>Certain missions are ball-bustingly hard if you insist on going non-lethal.

I remember that level.
So many retries. But fuck if I was gonna kill someone trying to prove my innocence.
IIRC, the characters even display their dislike for killing someone who had nothing to do with it.

Or maybe I'm having a bit foggy memory. I know their standard responses to orders change a whole lot after you know what happens.
This fucking game.

>>385516448
the bathhouse one with the lights near the end. There's not even an achievement for it, no idea why I bothered

>>385507080
>Why oldschool 2D graphics usually look so good and pleasant?
Because it requires real dedication and artistic talent to create. Especially with older software every single sprite was painstakingly created pixel by pixel. No amount of software can replace this raw talent and effort.

>>385515967
>Indie means they use pixel graphics

>>385516606
>Especially with older software every single sprite was painstakingly created pixel by pixel.

Well, they were only working on sprites the size of nothing.
No one was retarded enough to use pixel art by the time you got to any actual resolutions like 640x480.

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>>385516478
I don't remember Commandos 2 being as hard as Shadow Tactics on normal, which is impressive in and out of itself. C2, as good as it was, usually could've been cheesed with throwing smokes and distracting guards with that, so you could say that ST actually evolves some things.

Not to mention that one system that allows you to execute actions from multiple characters at the same time which is both necessary and has the potential to break the game. Honestly, it's a fucking crime how amazing this game is, and how close they've gotten to surpassing C2.

>>385516598
The one where you have to kidnap a dude when he's getting a massage? I think I managed that without killing anyone too, Don't remember the details but I remember I got extremely fucking lucky with grabbing the guy. They extend an olive branch to the player and allow you to hide in little hedges around that area.

>>385513081
commandos 2 is better, desperados is better, this game is strange, it's good but then again i would rather play commandos and desperados again then shadow tactics because i think the missions are linear as it you don't have many options how to play the mission. but maybe it's only me, anyway the game is good play it

>>385515967
retard

>>385507080
I thought all good 2d artists went to mobile shit because they pay bettter.

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>>385507080
>what is Factorio

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>>385511126

>Why do indie games from 20 years ago look so much better than indie games today?

Probably because back then they were the pinnacle of consumer graphics technology, and thus each game had an entire company behind it (including dedicated programming, bugetesting, and design teams) not five people in a cuck closet.

Seriously, how fucking stupid do you have to be? You don't have to like indie games to realize why older games look better: they weren't indie games and had much more money poured into their creation.

>>385511126
what indie games from 20 years ago?

>>385507080
>Why indie devs can't replicate it?
Because it's usually 1 with no artistic skills trying to make a game by himself.

>>385521638
Net Yaroze?

>>385517287
i thought the same about the game

its just a sneak around trial and error quickload game. boring after first few missions

>>385511126
>indie games from 20 years ago

You can go ahead and stop talking now anon

>>385510582
Sadly this is correct

Most of these "indie" people hate games, never played them, and hate people who actually play games.

Their main goal seems to be to make the most hacked together crap, insert some sort of "progressive" message and spend the next decade mooching around trade shows and scamming funding out of publishers/kickstarter.

>>385507080
Partially it's cost. Hand-animation work is expensive. The skills needed to do it are increasingly rare.

>>385525165
you're equating most independent devs with twine sjws