How would you nerf this faggit

>>385297723
By buffing the other classes instead.

>>385297723
There's a pretty good nerf to him already, it's been available since day one: get good.

>>385297761
This

Git gud

Reduce splash damage at all ranges.

get good = going soldier am I right? which class could 1 v 1 him?

>>385297859
Soldier.

>>385297723
He's good but he doesn't need a nerf.

Truth is, if any class in the game needs nerfed, it's Scout. He's ridiculous. Superb mobility, the #1 best heal target for Medics (even better after the crazy speed buff), Great DPS. Bonk! And Crit Cola or insanely OP secondaries, Atomizer turns Scout v Soldier from about equal to heavily Scout-sided, and Sandman is a free kill.

buff Pyro

give pyro all of his melee weapons

>>385297971
Powerjack is still better than all of them...

>>385298012
I'd prefer the half zatoichi

>>385297950
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEnrv9EH4Sc

yeah, scout needs a ""nerf""

Only retards think soldier needs to be nerfed, he's the core of the game. Scout/Demo/Soldier are the balanced classes and the ones that sit above or below are OP or UP.

>>385297859
Scout is the best 1v1 class

>>385298191
a solider would 1v1 a scout 70% of the time

>>385298139
Wow what a sound refutation of all my points

>>385297723
Don't nerf him.
Buff the rest of the roster. Especially Pyro, since it's his natural counterpick.

>>385297723
Remove hitboxes on all classes' feet.

Make it so Pyro can carry a flamethrower, shotgun, and flare gun all at once

>>385298252
Lol no. It's 50/50 if the soldier has the shotgun, a gunboats soldier is btfo most of the time by a good scout. Key word being good, you don't balance things going by what shitters do in pubs

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>>385297723
>>385297829
stock Soldier doesn't need a nerf

What makes something overpowered is whether it's higher tier or lower tier than the tier with the most characters on it, because balancing around that tier takes the least effort

TF2's tiers work like this
S: Medic (1)
A: Defensive Heavy and Engie (1)
B: Soldier, Scout, Sniper, Demo (4)
C: Offensive Heavy and Engie (1)
D: Spy, Pyro (2)

As you can see the biggest tier is B, therefore you balance your game around tier B (nerf Medic and defensive Engie/Heavy, buff Pyro, Spy, and offensive Engie/Heavy) to make the game balanced in the minimum effort

Balancing the whole game around Pyro (nerfing everyone down to its level) or around Medic (buffing everyone up to its level) would require 8 classes to be changed.
However, balancing the game around Soldier, Scout, Sniper and Demo, who are already pretty close to each other balance-wise, would only require buffing/nerfing/reworking 5 classes

So that is how you balance your game
>>385297950
Scout doesn't need a nerf either
The only class in TF2 that truly needs a nerf is Medic, because he's MANDATORY to win a game, and you have to pick him (or lose) even if you don't enjoy playing him, which is not how a class based game should work

>>385297723

Nerf the gunboats and the Market garden now it needs a minimum airtime to gain crits.

Plain and simple without destroying his power.

Also buff the other classes and add more maps that doesnt give the soldier automatic advantage

>>385298139
>the best player to ever touch the game vs a highlander shitter who's barely good enough to play 6s in im
>on a map where scout can abuse elevations and angles with good footwork

holy fucking christ, never post about tf2 balance again, like seriously dude I would fucking ban you for that shit if I had the power to

>>385298435
YOU'LL NEVER HIT ME!
YOU'LL NEVER HIT MY TINY FEET!
THEY'RE SO TINY I GOT FRICKIN'...SUCH TINY LITTLE FEET!

>>385298494
>that kek worthy tier list
>implying the game should be balanced around pubtrash

>>385297723
The Soldier has the most primary weapons, right? They should have toned down that number long ago but it's too late, now the only way to nerf him is changing the character's stats.

>>385297723
>Reduce minimum splash damage to 35% from 50%
>Increase rocket speed to 1300hu from 1100hu
>increase ramp up to 133% from 125%
Edge splashing is less effective but directs do a bit more damage and are a bit easier to hit.

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>>385298494
>medic is top tier
The more things change, the more they stay the same

>>385298616
Most of them suck dick

Aside from the direct hit and the cow mangler everything is a shitty downgrade

>>385298601
>>385298490
>don't balance the game around pubs
Yes, why should a game be balanced around its core playerbase

"Balance the game around me Valve! I'm good! I'm a minority of the playebase but I'm GOOD! LISTEN TO ME! MAKE THE GAME FOR ME AND NO ONE ELSE!"

>>385298494
Except Sandman, Bonk, and Atomizer are actually broken and OP as fuck weapons

Engineer is one of the worst classes in the game. You're throwing if you play him in 6s and he's still "that" class in Highlander. Same with Heavy more or less. Spy is also a much more effective pick class than you give credit for.

If you did something to make medic "not required" you would kill the class. Nerf the Crossbow and Scout speed boost sure, but that's about it

Basically you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about

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>>385298278
Not him but while I fully agree on the Bonk, Critacola, Atomizer, Mad Milk, Sandman, Soda Popper, and Guillotine, STOCK Scout himself is well-balanced alongside Soldier/Demo/Sniper and does not require a nerf (except maybe rolling back the dumb healing tether thing you mentioned).

Scout's superb ground mobility and high DPS are counterbalanced by his lowest HP and average effective range. This makes him balanced alongside Soldier (high HP, low ground mobility, high range, average damage), Demo (average HP, average ground mobility, average range, high damage), and Sniper (low HP, average ground mobility, high range, high damage)

It's not Scout that needs a nerf; it's Pyro and Spy that need a buff and Engie/Heavy that need a rework to be better on offense and worse on defense

The only proper way to nerf him would be to handicap his rocket jumping abilities, but no one would ever accept a change like that.

>>385298139
MGE isn't the actual game.

>>385298687
Why would you balance a game around the lowest common denominator? Every game should be balanced around the highest level of play. It literally doesn't matter what you do in pubs

>>385298553
PETITE FEET! FEMININE STEP! SOUNDS LIKE A LADY WHEN HE'S WALKIN' IN THE ROOM.

>>385298687
in another 5 years, we're the ones that will still be playing the game

>>385298762
heavy is OP on defense

>>385298762
Can't argue with most of that, except I think Spy is fine right now and Heavy/Engy aren't necessarily any better defensive than offensive. They definitely need help in any case.

Remove the shotgun

How do we get noobs to play medic and not in packs of three when they do?

>>385297723
Just play Scout holy shit. You'd think after 10 years, people would have a solid grasp of this game already.

>>385299014
why play scout when you can play soldier? Sentries pretty much denies your existence as scout

>>385298893
Heavy is not an "offense/defense" class. He's a ranged/CQC class. He massacres in tight spaces or close proximity but he's a giant target at range. And he's too slow to offset that, so he ends up being mediocre outside of pubs where theres enough people to always be shooting.

>>385299082
But if there's no sentries you're pretty much the best match-up class in the game.

>>385299082
Because a team of just Soldiers isn't as effective as a team of Soldiers, Scouts, and Demos.

>>385299082
Good thing it's called TEAM Fortress 2. Plus, that's besides the point. OP was calling soldier OP when there's already a soft counter that exists.

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>>385298601
I'm not saying the game should be balanced around pubs.
That tier list is based upon 6v6 competitive play.
>Medic is mandatory to win at all times and has always been picked for the last 9 years without fail, so he's the best class for winning games
>teams swap in a Heavy or Engie quite often when holding last because they're better at defending than Scout or Soldier
>Soldier, Scout, and Demo are the full-time classes for general 6s play, with Sniper also being a viable full-time class if you're very good at it
>Engie and Heavy are rarely seen on offense
>Pyro and Spy are rarely played
If you disagree with anything there I'd like to hear why. Otherwise, it's a pretty objectively correct tier list.
>>385298748
>Except Sandman, Bonk, and Atomizer are actually broken and OP as fuck weapons

I agree.
I'm talking about the stock classes.
>You're throwing if you play him in 6s
Not on defense. His Sentry is useful for stalling on lasts. Here's a game played yesterday as an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEpNeVksxsk
>If you did something to make medic "not required" you would kill the class
That's not true at all. Balance isn't a switch between OP and UP. It's a sliding scale.
The reason Medic is mandatory right now is because his healing numbers are too high. All you have to do is reduce the healing numbers to the point where he's not mandatory, but keep them high enough so he's not useless.

>>385299224
scout isn't a "soft" counter though.

>playing dustbowl
>medic is tripping and won't heal people
>he goes demo and team is medicless
>get fed up and go medic myself
>build uber up in like 10 seconds and cap the point
>that easy

Medic is so braindead but it surprises me how so many people are bad at him. Soldier main btw

The problem with soldier isn't that he's too good at his best, it's that he has a Heavy-tier skill floor with barely any counters even at his worst.
The only place where he's really "balanced" is competitive 6s, where the scout players are actually good and don't have to deal with sentries.
And, to anyone who thinks the game should be balanced around 6s, your opinion is completely impractical and unworkable. TF2 is and always has been designed around casual play, the fact that it can be competitive is basically just coincidence. Valve isn't going to completely revise over a decade of design decisions to cater exclusively to a small subgroup of their audience, deal with it.

>>385299097
I disagree, otherwise PUGS wouldn't pick him on last point

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>>385298893
Yes, I agree
>>385299097
>Heavy is not an "offense/defense" class. He's a ranged/CQC class.
Stock Heavy really is a defense class, though. He's slow as molasses without the GRU, and he's a bullet sponge that shits out damage.
>>385298916
>Spy is fine right now
He is pretty much entirely useless against good players. His job is assassination, but Sniper does that job more quickly and safely.
Spy is useful 1% of the time in competitive games. I'd like that number to be higher by giving Spy some support abilities to use when the enemy knows that he's there. Ways of sabotaging the enemy team.
>Heavy/Engy aren't necessarily any better defensive than offensive
They're class limited to 1 each currently because when you have more of them, they are so powerful at defending that they break the game.
>They definitely need help in any case.
Yeah, true. Heavy is just kind of boring, if anything.

>>385297859
sniper

>>385299235
You're missing the point. Just because Engi can occasionally stall when you're not really losing anyway (consider the set-up time and relative fragility of a level 1 vs an incoming Demo or Soldier) does not give him a B tier role. He will still get stomped into the dirt once he actually tries help push or something.

If Medic's healing was lowered enough to make him not a necessary pick, he'd just never be picked, because it would thus be more effective to run another DPS.

>>385298139
>scout is always overhealed when spawning and still gets killed easily by sold

lmao even with handicap scout is shit

>tf2 balance

>>385299235
>That tier list is based upon 6v6 competitive play.
>all that bullshit you posted

I've played comp 6s at every level for the past 6 years

you are an absolute moron and completely ignorant on the subject, you should stop posting about it

there's so much fucking wrong with it I'm not going to bother typing out an entire paragraph

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Reduce the deployment time on this thing. Can't tell you how many times I've accidentally picked up my sentry trying to secondary fire my short circuit.

>>385299551
You're really not giving Spy enough credit. He's a fine class to use occasionally. He's not the most often used because his whole meta is built around being unexpected, so the more he's played, the weaker he becomes. He's not necessarily going backstab diving but more likely playing gun spy.

You have to be careful when balancing Spy because the more dangerous you make him, the more players are wary of one, weakening him.

>>385298997
Play medic yourself and get in the top 3 on your team.
Speaking of which, how do you deal with good medic players and their skilled butt buddies?

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>>385299465
>with barely any counters
While it's true that Soldier doesn't have any counters, he doesn't counter anyone by design, either.

Every class has a fairly even matchup with Soldier (in Spy's case indirectly, and in Medic's case with the ability to buff allies so they beat Soldier).
>And, to anyone who thinks the game should be balanced around 6s, your opinion is completely impractical and unworkable. TF2 is and always has been designed around casual play, the fact that it can be competitive is basically just coincidence
It's neither impractical nor unworkable. For comparison, Valve made 40 balance changes during Gun Mettle; they'd only need to make 29 balance changes to make TF2 a working competitive game.
>Valve isn't going to completely revise over a decade of design decisions to cater exclusively to a small subgroup of their audience, deal with it.
Well actually, they are.
That's what 90% of the balance changes in Meet your Match, Tough Break, and the upcoming Blogpost were targeted towards: Competitive play.

What, you think they nerfed BASE Jumper because of pubs?? Valve is balancing TF2 for 6v6 Matchmaking now. Deal with it.

Besides, Valve don't need to "revise a decade of design" to make TF2 6s work. All that's required is nerfing/reworking 24 unlock weapons and reworking 5 stock weapons (Flamethrower, Medigun, Minigun, Sentry Gun and Sapper). That's it.

>>385299551
BTW senpai GRU is awful. Use the Eviction Notice for speed

>>385299750
Literally zero argument or citation of your credentials, so we'll safely disregard your post

>>385297723
Take away gunboats
Buff Liberty launcher

>>385298997
if you like winning then you pick medic.

>>385300000
>using the GRU-lite
get a load of this baby nice digits btw

>>385298139
>scout looses on badlands mid
this fucktard doesn't even play the game

>>385300078
gru's marked for death lasts too long, sorry. Eviction Notice is infinitely more versatile and also fun against spies

>>385300081
B4nny doesn't play TF2?

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Roll back to the Engi update, the moment in the history of TF2 when balance and fun was at all times high.

I hate both scrubs friendly hoovis and comp esport cocksucker faggots; both sides wants to slap they crusty tiny dicks on the table when TF2 is too far gone.

One side wants to nerf something that can be beaten with patience and skill and the other wants everybody to give a fuck about they stupid ways when for years barely anybody gave a fuck about them.

TF2 of old is long forgotten yet since nothing today has manage to be as unique and fun I have to come back from time to time.

>>385300002
ok, you stupid nigger fuck, you baited me, now be prepared to look like the fucking ignorant idiot you are:

>teams swap in a Heavy or Engie quite often when holding last
no, they fucking don't, heavy is used on 2 lasts in the ESEA map pool, engie is used on 1, and that's only if the other team doesn't have uber
>they're better at defending than Scout or Soldier
no, they fucking aren't, engie is only better if he has time to get up a level 3, which he never does outside of valves pubtrash tier 6s matchmaking, heavy is only better on 2 lasts, and if the other team has uber it doesn't matter anyway

>Sniper also being a viable full-time class if you're very good at it
holy fucking god what in the actual fuck am I reading? how is 5v6 every mid fight viable? have you ever actually played 6s in a league?

>Pyro and Spy are rarely played
spy is a meta pick to break stalemates at chokes and to open up lasts on certain maps like badlands, pyro is literally the most commonly used offclass because he's the best for stuffing ubers pushing into your last

>Otherwise, it's a pretty objectively correct tier list.
lmao

>citation of your credentials
where the fuck are your credentials, you stupid nigger idiot? you want me to link my ESEA account? not that that would prove anything you idiot, I could link anyones

get fucking rekt you pubshit, don't fucking bother replying

>>385299667
>Just because Engi can occasionally stall when you're not really losing anyway
If you're pushed to last, you ARE losing, anon.
Level 3 Sentries get put up because they're an extremely effective way of wasting an enemy Uber and make for great area denial.
That's why Engineer and Heavy are class limited to 1.
>He will still get stomped into the dirt once he actually tries help push or something.
Yeah anon, that's why I put OFFENSIVE Engineer in tier C.

Defensive Engineer is tier A. Offensive Engineer is tier C.
>If Medic's healing was lowered enough to make him not a necessary pick, he'd just never be picked, because it would thus be more effective to run another DPS.
Let me explain something to you here: We're dealing with numbers.

We know that right now Medic's HP/s being at 24+ makes him indispensable. We know that if his HP/s was at 0, he'd be useless.

All we have to do is find the right point inbetween 24+ and 0, and Medic will neither be indispensable nor useless.
>>385299893
>He's a fine class to use occasionally
Well that's the thing, he shouldn't only be "occasional". He's a class, not a weapon unlock.
>He's not the most often used because his whole meta is built around being unexpected
That's what a support buff is for. So that he can help his team by sabotaging the enemy in the background, even when he's already expected. Then he can hang out for picks here and there while doing this, without wasting time doing nothing.

>>385300081
He beats him on Waste, Trainyard, and Viaduct. He even mentions actual matches would be completely different.

>>385300376
People can just watch some teamfortress.tv or extelevision 6s matches to see how wrong you are.

>>385298601
>not balancing a game around what 90% of players play
>balancing a game around a comp scene that already has well-established rules and restrictions that result in it working just fine as it is

You're a fucking idiot. Comp players don't want any meaningful changes. They want Heavy nerfed to shit so he never appears in comp, they want Pyro nerfed to shit so he never appears in comp. They want no changes ever made to Soldier or Demo so they never have to learn anything new. They are set in their ways, they have practiced for thousands of hours for one specific meta and don't want it changed. They are also a tiny fraction of the playerbase.

It makes absolutely no sense to balance a game around anything other than pubs.

>>385298863
This is why you're not a game dev.

Every game should be balanced to satisfy the broadest number of players. It's the most fiscally and logically sound decision. Appealing to the 1% of players at the highest levels of play doesn't sell Mann Co. supply crate keys.

>>385300727
except I'm not wrong at all, I have no fucking clue what matches you're talking about

random asiafortress or UGC shit is not indicative of the top level of the game

>>385299957
>he doesn't counter anyone by design, either.
>by design
That's the thing, he's not designed to counter anyone specifically, but his rocket launcher is so all-around effective that he essentially counters everyone as long as he knows how to utilize splash damage.
>they'd only need to make 29 balance changes to make TF2 a working competitive game.
I find this extremely questionable, mainly because I don't know what you consider to be a "working competitive game" and it seems very subjective. Can you provide a list of these changes?
>Well actually, they are.
Maybe that's why the Tough Break and MyM updates both made me drop the game for several months each.

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>>385300376
>pyro is literally the most commonly used offclass
this is the point i realized your post was bait
Bravo

>>385300376
>pyro is literally the most commonly used offclass

You've never played a day of 6s in your life.

>>385300895
>6s players only plays 6s
Even to this day, competitive players are doing new formats, hell when they did a completely unresistricted 6s matches it lead directly to Babys Face Blaster getting rightfully nerfed by Valve, Their most recent one was 7s Prolander and if it showed anything its that Spy is viable against the right class compositions and that Pyro is the worst class.
6s is the most popular because it the most fun for the people playing it.

soldier takes less skill than literally any class

>>385301407
Eh, heavy still probably takes less, and you can't really compare soldier to the medic or engineer because they play so differently.
But yeah, every class in this game has a skill floor that's below sea level except for maybe scout and sniper.

>>385301332
>>385301352
I'm talking about ETF2L and ESEA, I don't care what you pubtrash shitters think just because you're high rank in valve's matchmaking shitfest

>>385297761
>>385297803

>>385301407
Heavy and especially Pyro take way less skill

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>>385301283
>but his rocket launcher is so all-around effective that he essentially counters everyone
You're misusing the word "counter".
When you counter someone it means you have an explicit advantage over them which makes you much more likely to win at an equal skill level.

Tell me, how does a Rocket Launcher wielding Soldier counter a Sniper who is sitting on the other side of the map with a laser sight focused on the Soldier's body?
>I find this extremely questionable, mainly because I don't know what you consider to be a "working competitive game" and it seems very subjective. Can you provide a list of these changes?
Here are the weapons banned in competitive 6v6 leagues play that have been determined as having to be banned for the game to be workable without serious imbalances or stalemates: http://comp.tf/wiki/6v6_Global_Whitelist
It's not subjective but was determined after extensive testing.
>Maybe that's why the Tough Break and MyM updates both made me drop the game for several months each
I don't know about you, but what made people in general temporarily drop TF2 after MyM wasn't the balance changes, it was the implementation of Casual to replace quickplay/server browser.

As you can see here, https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLScqruoGsKTHRe45KlfLG1_FbUyvQVXmKvIUtzqN4wXPHJOkhA/viewanalytics?usp=form_confirm most people liked the majority of the Meet your Match balance changes.

>>385301589
I haven't even played MM you retard, I play ETF2L and mge and watch ESEA matches on occasion
No more (you)s, your bait is too obvious

>>385300376
>"pyro is literally the most commonly used offclass"
>"get fucking rekt"
???????????????????????????????
Did you time travel from a 2013 pub game?

>>385301730
I would argue that pyro actually takes more skill to be proficient with than the soldier.
He can farm points a bit more easily by extinguishing people and getting free assists for doing absolutely nothing with the scorch shot, but the soldier is still an easier and more effective character at low skill levels just by having fewer counters, more health, and longer range.

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I fucking love playing medic.

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>>385300895
>They want Heavy nerfed to shit so he never appears in comp
>they want Pyro nerfed to shit so he never appears in comp
I am a comp player and this is my post here >>385298494 so that kind of proves your point wrong.
We'd be perfectly happy for Pyro, Heavy, and Engie to be a bigger part of the game if they actually took skill and didn't cause stalemates. In fact, I frequently argue towards the goal of making them a bigger part of the game
>They are also a tiny fraction of the playerbase
Because the game isn't balanced around competitive, and has had zero competitive support for nine years running from Valve. Of course the community isn't big.

That's no reason not to balance the game around competitive. Many more people would want to play TF2 competitive if it was actually balanced for competitive play.

Besides, whether you like the idea of balancing TF2 around comp or not, IT'S HAPPENING ANYWAY. Valve are already making balance changes targeted at competitive play, and have been for the last three major updates.

Get on board or get left behind.

>Create entire game around 12v12 battles
>Asshole competitive fanbase wants to reduce everything to 9v9 or, dear god, 6v6
And after seeing MyM, competitivefags won. There's nothing Valve can do to fix this mistake.

>>385302431
Game launched 8v8 actually.

>>385301160
The average pub player doesn't care about balance at all.

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>>385302431
>>Create entire game around 12v12 battles
Actually TF2 was balanced around 8v8 during development; 12v12 was a decision very late in the piece. That's why the earliest competitive TF2 format was 8v8.
>>Asshole competitive fanbase wants to reduce everything to 9v9 or, dear god, 6v6
You'll still have your 12v12 games, stop overreacting.
For competitive 6v6 to work, only 29 weapons total need to be nerfed/reworked. 12v12 games will still work just fucking fine.

>>385301889
>When you counter someone it means you have an explicit advantage over them which makes you much more likely to win at an equal skill level.
That's exactly what I mean, the problem is you're looking at the highest possible level of comp 6s and I'm not.
At the skill level where a soldier would know how to utilize splash and not much else, he absolutely has a distinct advantage over most classes. Scouts generally wouldn't be able to dodge rockets consistently, and pyros wouldn't be able to airblast consistently.
Going to you sniper example, a sniper at that skill level may not even be able to reliably bodyshot the the soldier if the soldier knows he's there and make a conscious effort to dodge and harass him.
He certainly wouldn't keep enough pressure on the soldier to keep him from taking objectives.
>Here are the weapons banned in competitive 6v6 leagues play that have been determined as having to be banned for the game to be workable without serious imbalances or stalemates
Oh, so it's just a list of banned weapons with no ideas for how to actually make them acceptable.
And no changes that would, for example, actually make the pyro viable.
>most people liked the majority of the Meet your Match balance changes.
You should check your math on that, because according to the overall ratings of the update roughly 37% of players didn't like it and roughly 35% did
https://tf2stats.net/maps/
But hey, the average TF2 player apparently also thinks that 2fort, dustbowl, and turbine are the best maps in the game, so maybe popular opinion among the playerbase isn't a good metric of quality when you're judging a game that's notorious for having lots of dumb players.

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>>385300000
You heard it here first, folks. GRU is awful.

buff him even more so newfaggots like you leave the game

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>>385303209
>At the skill level where a soldier would know how to utilize splash and not much else, he absolutely has a distinct advantage over most classes
So, you're talking about the lowest skill level of TF2?
You don't balance for the lowest skill level. Bad players can get better. Good players can't get worse.
>if the soldier knows he's there and make a conscious effort to dodge and harass him.
In that case the Soldier is outskilling the Sniper and deserves to outperform him. That's not an inbuilt advantage whatsoever.
>Oh, so it's just a list of banned weapons with no ideas for how to actually make them acceptable
If you really want it, I have it here. It'll take time and space though so I'll put it in a separate post.
>because according to the overall ratings of the update
That's including Valve's dumbass addition of Casual, anon, and is thus skewing the figures. We're talking about the BALANCE changes, and as I said, most people liked the majority of the MyM balance changes.
>But hey, the average TF2 player
The utterly average TF2 player doesn't participate in surveys about the game because they aren't that invested. Check the hour counts on that survey: Most respondants had over 1000 hours.

TF2stats.com, rather than being a survey, simply rips data right from Valve's API.

Anyway, my overall point is that a majority of people liked the majority of Valve's balance changes, even though they were targeted at competitive play. So you can't really talk about "a minority of players."

1/2

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>>385303209
2/2
I'll leave out all the weapons Valve has already proposed good changes for.
>Soda Popper
Remove the reload speed bonus. Soda Popper is currently banned because it gives Scout a short-term and long-term DPS buff compared to stock, in addition to its multiple jump thing, with its only downside being mid-term DPS.
>Bonk
Scout can no longer attack or capture for a short period of time after coming out of Bonk. Bonk is banned in comp because it either lets Scout run past the enemy team and cap without having to win a fight, or lets him run right up to the Medic invulnerably and 2shot him when Bonk wears off.
>Critacola
Scout is now marked for death for the entire duration and a brief period after it wears off.
>Guillotine
Recharge speed increased from 6 seconds to 10.
>Milk
Splash radius halved (Currently Milk and Jarate's splash radius is twice the size of Rocket Launcher's, making them very low counterplay). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hYZbyUK170
>Sandman
stun duration reduced from 1-7s to 1-4s
>Reserve Shitter
swap speed bonus is now a swap speed penalty instead
>Disc. Action
speed boost ability now has a 5 second cooldown, -50% damage
>RR
Healing per bolt reduced
>SC
No ammo from dispensers, altfire ammo cost decreased, primary/secondary range buffed
>Sleeper
Wearer cannot headshot or be headshot, shots apply jarate, slower charge
>DDS
bullet resist removed, now grants damage resistance while wielding melee
>Jarate
see milk

>>385303612
>So, you're talking about the lowest skill level of TF2?
The skill level I'm referring to is basically everything short of comp.
>In that case the Soldier is outskilling the Sniper and deserves to outperform him.
Strafing a bit while plinking at the sniper with a shotgun to make him flinch or forcing him to move with rocket spam isn't skillful.
>That's including Valve's dumbass addition of Casual, anon, and is thus skewing the figures. We're talking about the BALANCE changes, and as I said, most people liked the majority of the MyM balance changes.
I think you must counting the neutral "allright!" as positive, because the overall opinion on balance changes isn't any better.
34.2% against
30.2% in favor of

Reminder that Valve and the TF team is deliberately pushing out low quality updates with long content droughts because tf2 isn't worth keeping alive from their financial viewpoint but cutting out content updates all together would cause community outrage so they're slowly killing peoples interest in the game until people don't want updates so they don't have to be responsible for it anymore

>>385297723
Nerf him out of existence, his character isn't inclusive enough for newer players. He should be more like Pharah from Overwatch and accessible for players of all skill levels, not just those "Hardcore" gamers who spend all day playing the game and feel like they're more special.

>>385304092
If you're a good sniper why are you standing out in the open allowing yourself to get picked off by a soldier?
The idea of a sniper is that they're supposed to stand a distance away from the action to be their strongest
Furthermore what's to stop a demo from doing the same thing? Or a pyro?
What you've listed aren't strengths the soldier has, they're weaknesses the sniper has

>>385304092
>The skill level I'm referring to is basically everything short of comp
"At the skill level where a soldier would know how to utilize splash and not much else"
>Strafing a bit while plinking at the sniper with a shotgun to make him flinch or forcing him to move with rocket spam isn't skillful
If that limited amount of effort is more than the Sniper's tracking skill can handle, and he can't handle a slow moving target to click on them, then he isn't skillful either. So you are "outskilling" him in the sense that both of you are shit, but you're less shit.
I'm not saying that it's skillful gameplay, anon, don't be disingenuous.
>because the overall opinion on balance changes
It's not as simple as counting the overall reaction, since if Valve makes 20 good changes and 1 really hated change, that 1 hated change is going to outweigh all the others, even though people were happy with the changes overall. One or two mistakes isn't indicative of Valve's ability to make intelligent balance decisions as a whole.

To clarify: For each weapon they changed, in the majority of cases, the majority of reactions was positive. On a case-by-case basis. I can't load the survey for some reason, but I think it was something like 26/30 changes done in the update had a majority positive reaction. That's a pretty good track record.

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>>385303209
>And no changes that would, for example, actually make the pyro viable
Forgot about this bit:
>pressing m2 and jumping now knocks Pyro back, similarly to the force-a-nature
This allows Pyro to "airblast jump", giving him the mobility to get in range to attack enemies, reach mid quickly in a rollout, jump up to ambush spots, dodge, retreat, etc
>Flamethrower now has a 50% smaller cone with 50% smaller fire particles; visuals changed to match
This makes it take more skill to aim, like a Lightning Gun from Quake
>Flamethrower now has a 50% longer range, visuals changed to match
This makes it more effective at range

>>385304359
>If you're a good sniper why are you standing out in the open allowing yourself to get picked off by a soldier?
By "the open" do you mean literally anywhere in the soldier's line of sight? The soldier doesn't even actually have to kill him, mind you, just put enough pressure on him to prevent him from lining up shots.
>Furthermore what's to stop a demo from doing the same thing?
His projectiles move in an arc and need to be charged up to travel long distances, but otherwise yeah not much. At least people were willing to recognize that the demo is kinda bullshit and nerf him accordingly, I don't see people saying "soldier takes skill" as a joke.
>Or a pyro?
His projectile weapon doesn't have the same general utility of the rocket launcher and he can't use it along with his shotgun at the same time.
Once again, the issue with soldier isn't that he's easy to play. Nearly every class is. It's that he has no weaknesses to make up for his ease of use the way other classes tend to.

>>385304836
>It's that he has no weaknesses to make up for his ease of use
>no weaknesses
Extremely immobile unless you rocket jump, which costs HP in spades.
Low reload speed
Small clip
Large target for hitscan enemies due to his large hitscan hitbox
Primary attacks are projectiles which can be dodged by enemies
Attacks have splash damage which hurts himself at very close range
Low primary ammo reserve

Heavy has much higher HP
Scout, Medic, Spy, Sniper, Engie, Pyro, Demo have much higher ground speed
Spy, Engineer, Heavy, Scout, and Demo have better DPS
Sniper has better range
Demo is actually more mobile when it comes to blast jumping than Soldier

There's your weaknesses.

tfw used to main pryo back when i had a shit laptop 5 years ago
tfw saw him get nerfed into the ground as time went on
tfw now mostly use engi/ scout with a bit of medic
tfw pryo is still fun when your just being a shitter with stock/ backburner and flares

>>385305213
don't worry anon, pyro will be buffed in this update.

>>385304512
>"At the skill level where a soldier would know how to utilize splash and not much else"
Yes, everything outside comp. Rocket jumping is practically unnecessary for a soldier to carry teams.
>If that limited amount of effort is more than the Sniper's tracking skill can handle, and he can't handle a slow moving target to click on them, then he isn't skillful either.
This is true in a completely open area, but any map that's actually a map is going to have plenty of cover for the soldier while sniper fails to prevent him from moving from objective to objective.
>It's not as simple as counting the overall reaction
Then don't cite it to begin with.

>>385305489
>Yes, everything outside comp
The good first half of pub players are within the skill level of a rocket jumping Soldier on the class they play.
>but any map that's actually a map is going to have plenty of cover for the soldier
Badwater Basin: Long stretch of open space from the top of the hill to RED's spawn.
Process: Sniper can shoot from choke to choke.
Upward: Sniper can sit on the entrance to last and snipe people who are pushing the cart on the cliff.
Are these maps not maps?
>but the Soldier can just flank the Sniper
This is team fortress 2, the Soldier is going to have to fight his way through the Sniper's allies to reach the Sniper, while the Sniper can pick Soldier out of a crowd.
To save us getting bogged down in hypotheticals forever, the point is: Rocket Launcher does not "counter" anyone.
>Then don't cite it to begin with
I've explained to you what I meant by citing it.
>.
Feedback on >>385304085 >>385304831, since you asked? It's okay if you don't feel like responding though or you can just give a general response since I realize its a bit TL;DR

>>385305489
>rocket jumping is practically unnecessary for a soldier to carry teams

holy FUCK that's the dumbest fucking thing i've ever heard, why don't you just use the shotgun only while you're at it retard. I hope you enjoy walking near heavy speeds from one place to another and never being able to get the high ground you fucking IDIOT

>>385305213
>stock and flares
burning the trash feels so good

>>385298863
Anon, that school of thought is what led us to meet your match. Face it, compfags ruined TF2.

>>385305095
>Extremely immobile unless you rocket jump
A minor issue outside comp. Even then he makes up for it by having the second highest health in the game, and a weapon with enough range for him to fight at relatively safe distances
>Low reload speed
>Small clip
He can fire mid-reload, has an excellent secondary, and can still kill most classes within two or three hits without even hitting them directly.
>Large target for hitscan enemies due to his large hitscan hitbox
Any minor advantage this gives his enemies is offset by his health.
>Primary attacks are projectiles which can be dodged by enemies
Too bad only the scout can reliably dodge his mile-wide splash that two-shots anything with less than 175 health.
>Attacks have splash damage which hurts himself at very close range
Translation: sometimes he brings his enemy down with him instead of outright killing them.
>Low primary ammo reserve
So easy to get kills with that the only way you'll ever notice is if you've been holding off a chokepoint for at least a full minute.

>everything else
I don't think I can reply to all of that in one post, and I can't be bothered to make a continuation post.
I know the soldier isn't the best at literally everything. The advantages you listed all come with trade-offs that make them balanced.

>>385306335
>is what led us to meet your match
Competitive players didn't ask for Casual, and Casual+Bison changes were the only bad things about MyM. Stop using it as a negative buzzword

>>385306335
The only thing wrong with mym is the matchmaking. The balance changes were fine

>>385305916
>I hope you enjoy walking near heavy speeds from one place to another
I can just tele to the front like everyone else, and if I get hurt I have two different melee unlocks that can help me get out faster. Most high ground is still accessible by foot, and taking a few extra seconds to get in position isn't going to stop me from killing everyone in most situations.
Honestly basic "just getting to a slightly higher spot" rocket jumping isn't skillful either.

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Hey /v/,
yore
ugleh

>>385306893
it's not skillful but you're gimping yourself hard you fucking retard

>>385306893
Retard, a soldier that isn't rocket jumping is easy target for a lot of classes. You're literally gimping yourself if you don't use the best mobility mechanic in the game. Not to mention it's the best way to take out medics.

>>385306567
>A minor issue outside comp
It really isn't. If you can't rocket jump, and you are playing as shootsfeetman, you're walking at a crawling pace. In pubs Heavy has GRU at the very least to get to the frontline. If you're playing at the bottom of Soldier's skill ceiling you have nothing.
>He can fire mid-reload
So can most classes.
>has an excellent secondary
Yes, but his secondary isn't an advantage over other classes.
>and can still kill most classes within two or three hits without even hitting them directly
That entirely depends on distance and his own aim on moving targets with slow moving projectiles.
>Any minor advantage this gives his enemies is offset by his health
You said "no weaknesses". Ease of targeting is a weakness.
>Too bad only the scout can reliably dodge his mile-wide splash that two-shots anything with less than 175 health
I have seen Scouts, Snipers, Engies, Spies, Pyros and Medics reliably dodge rockets.
>Translation: sometimes he brings his enemy down with him
Yeah, which is a weakness.
>I know the soldier isn't the best at literally everything
You said "no weaknesses". If Soldier had no weaknesses, he would be the strongest in every area.

ok /v/, how do we fix the heavy?

>>385305876
>The good first half of pub players are within the skill level of a rocket jumping Soldier on the class they play.
I can't really argue with this because there's no hard evidence one way or the other, but I will say it does not fit with my personal experience.
>Are these maps not maps?
2 out of 3 of them have payloads for the soldier to use as cover while he's on the objective.
There are openings, sure, but a mediocre sniper still won't keep up with a mediocre soldier.
>>but the Soldier can just flank the Sniper
I'm not even talking about the soldier directly attacking and killing the sniper, I'm saying the sniper is basically a non-issue that the soldier can easily avoid.

>Feedback on >385304085 >385304831, since you asked?
I'm onboard with the pyro stuff and I guess the jarate nerf, but a lot of this is about what I expected; nerfs that seem completely unnecessary outside comp to things that have never really been an issue for me. I've never thought to myself "fucking guillotine scouts are ruining this game".
The reserve shooter probably needs a nerf too, but I don't know about the proposed drawback. It seems like axtinguisher part 2, where the drawback negates the whole point of the weapon.

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How do i do anything but the most basic rocket jump? When trying to pogo, do I also crouch or jump, or only fire the second rocket?

>>385308073
Increase Heavy's health to 450 but make him unable to be overhealed.

That combined with the upcoming Minigun changes should be enough.

>>385308073
Give him a means to restore ammunition that doesn't require a dispenser or ammo packs. I frequently run out of minigun bullets.

>>385307174
>>385307195
You should tell that to the average pub server, maybe someday I'll stop melting sentry nests and shutting down chokepoints just by existing.

>>385308130

There's a Rocket Jump Academy server that made exactly to teach you how to, with a tutorial server and a "Easy" server that saves your last position/checkpoint when it changes map.

Pogoing should be done walking off a stair height ledge, looking straight down while holding crouch and fire. Done right, you'll pogo on the spot a bit.

Aiming straight down starts to accelerate, after a certain speed you have to aim higher to avoid crashing with the floor. Aiming higher also acts as a brake. Airstrafe and turn to change direction, but avoid using airstrafe as a crutch because it causes unpredictability.

>>385308130
Stay crouched. You don't need to jump again either. Fire the rocket before you touch the ground and fire it at an angle so that it's actually underneath you when it explodes. The faster you're going the more of an angle you will need. If you just aim straight down and fire, the explosion will be too far behind you and it won't do anything. Just takes a lot of practice.

>>385308107
>nerfs that seem completely unnecessary outside comp to things that have never really been an issue for me
The Danger Shield has never been an issue for you? Or Crit-A-Cola? Or Sandman (which is actually used more than the Bat in pubs)? You wouldn't consider those problematic in pubs?
In some cases I would agree that it's not necessary for pubs. But it's not going to ruin pubs either. A minor change like a 4s increase in Guillotine's recharge time will have a big positive impact on comp but an almost unnoticeable negative impact on pubs, and people will continue to use the weapon.

Also Bonk is kind of BS both in pubs and comp. Scout gets Uber in a can that trivializes Sentries and has very little counterplay.

>>385299923
In terms of effectiveness, from best to worst:
>2-3 players gun them down from all directions starting with medic. Assuming no uber is present pocket will manage to kill one player, but two others will finish him off anyway.
>Sticky trap. And when I say trap I mean it - simply waiting for someone to pass hallway won't cut it, since pocket will be attentive to environment. Best tactic is using unconventional places or forcing pocket to divert attention from checking floor/walls.
>Spy + one other player. That other player starts fight and forces pocket to pay attention to him, spy quietly comes from behind. It can get messy quick, since medic will most likely unzip his ubersaw and it will turn into 2v2 where Medic vs Spy rely on lucky crit/backstab, and Pocket vs Friend is draw or favors overhealed Pocket.
>Single Spy. All the same, but you rely on universe's RNG which control if medic or Pocket decide to check their backs, which they do do, otherwise they are not all that dangerous.
>Backburner ambush, if you can't get any help. Even with crits it's possible to turn around quickly and negate them, which just leaves medic severely wounded. I mean it's possible to kill medic, but after this you are on your own against overhealed Pocket in revenge mode. As a subset of this, Phlog, but good luck doing taunt, catching up and so on undetected.

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>>385308073
Give him a mortar, HMG, plasma thrower and EMP gun primaries so he can actually be the Heavy Weapons guy and not "the Minigun guy"

>>385308073
Reduce HP to 275
Buff movement speed penalty while revved from -50% to -25% so he can move quicker while revved
Remove spin-down time weapon switching penalty so Heavy doesn't have to wait the full duration of the Minigun spindown to swap back
Increase the accuracy of the Minigun
Reduce the DPS of the Minigun to 500-50

All that's left to do after that is wait for Valve to implement the GRU rework they said they're doing

The hardest part of jumping is removing your pub engrained ideologies and letting go of that w key. I know it's like instinct to hold it to move forward but once you get used to it you'll never need to hold it again. Try some basic jump maps like Jump_academy and watch jump map videos if you get stuck. Take breaks if you get stuck on a map for too long (preferably joining a 2fort pub and going ham on everyone)

Pogoing is a bit tricky, you DO have to hold w to move forward while pogoing, but basically don't let go of your fire key and aim STRIAGHT down, jump off a ledge, shoot at your feet, and hold w to keep moving forward. Yes you should be holding crouch when jumping, in fact it's always good to crouch when in the air, you can surf damage and it makes your hitbox smaller.

>>385308238
>pub play is indicative of skill

sure thing r/tf2

>>385308238
>pubs
Oh look it's the mighty slayer of f2ps
You sure know what you're talking about

>>385308417
>Stay crouched
You mean all the time mid-air or just when shooting? Does it make a difference?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8A2al5WSKl0
has modding gone too far?

>>385308684

All the time, toggle is a bad idea because you might forget what state you're in, but you can get away with letting go when mid-air to relieve your pinky. Use your best judgement depending on the difficulty of the jump.

>>385308562
I feel like a mortar would overlap with Demo's role too much, but I like the general idea.
HMG would always be good and there are some good models on the workshop ready to go in that respect
Would a plasma thrower be similar to Quake's Plasma Gun?
How would an EMP gun work? Intrigued

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>>385307112
It's true

>>385307412
>In pubs Heavy has GRU at the very least to get to the frontline.
The soldier has two different melee weapons that buff his move speed, so this means nothing.
>So can most classes.
With the shotgun, yeah, but soldier has one of those on top of his rocket launcher.
>Yes, but his secondary isn't an advantage over other classes.
I would argue that the added versatility is an advantage in itself.
>That entirely depends on distance and his own aim on moving targets with slow moving projectiles.
Yeah, at mid-range he can only only effortlessly two-shot 125 health classes instead of 175 health ones.
>You said "no weaknesses". Ease of targeting is a weakness.
Are you really going to try and push that as his crippling Achilles heel? That his hitbox is an imperceptible fraction of fucking nothing larger than that of much frailer classes?
>I have seen Scouts, Snipers, Engies, Spies, Pyros and Medics reliably dodge rockets.
I'm not going to say that it's physically impossible to dodge rockets, but I guarantee anybody doing it is putting in more work than the soldier shooting at him.
>Yeah, which is a weakness.
No it isn't. it's him being at most, evenly matched with his opponent.
>You said "no weaknesses". If Soldier had no weaknesses, he would be the strongest in every area.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/weakness
"the quality or state of being weak; also : an instance or period of being weak"
The soldier is never weak, therefore he has no weaknesses.

>>385308434
>The Danger Shield has never been an issue for you? Or Crit-A-Cola? Or Sandman (which is actually used more than the Bat in pubs)?
Honestly no. The truth is I don't even see them that much, so I guess maybe they're a problem somewhere and I've just never seen it?
I see the sandman a decent amount, but I can't remember the last time I saw a pub scout really do anything useful with it. It's a minor irritant that won't go away with the proposed nerf.
>Guillotine's recharge time will have a big positive impact on comp but an almost unnoticeable negative impact on pubs, and people will continue to use the weapon.
I have to wonder if that's because it's already kind of bad, and the people who use it don't know better.
>Scout gets Uber in a can that trivializes Sentries and has very little counterplay.
That's fair, but a lot of times I feel like it's kind of a necessary evil in pubs. Sometimes there's just no other way for a scout to deal with a team that has shitloads of sentries.

>>385308635
>>385308637
This whole fucking discussion is about how soldier takes zero skill to be more effective in pubs than the other classes.
The fuck did you think I was talking about, Wingus and Dingus?

>>385309207
>The soldier has two different melee weapons that buff his move speed
One doesn't work without constant exposure to nearby teammates who'll stand still for like 4 seconds while you try and steady them up to hit with DA's bad ally hit detection, the other requires you to injure yourself so you get to the frontline injured if you're not going to be rocket jumping.

Besides, both DA and EP need to be nerfed anyway, as they remove some of Soldier's key balancing weaknesses. I have no disagreement with you there. I'm talking STOCK Soldier.
>With the shotgun, yeah
No, with the Scattergun, Stickybomb Launcher, Grenade Launcher, Flamethrower, Minigun. All of these can fire mid-reload
>he can only only effortlessly two-shot 125 health classes
It's not effortless. You have to hit moving targets with slow-moving projectiles that can be dodged and must be lead. And if you're just a hair out of midrange it takes three shots.
>No it isn't
Let's say another class with a hitscan weapon killed an enemy in the same situation. They would not die in the process of getting a kill.
It's a fucking weakness anon, just accept it. An area in which the class has a feature that hinders their performance is called a weakness.

You're crusading so hard to be able to say that the Soldier has "no weaknesses"-- just give up and accept that it's a ridiculous statement.

This entire argument is a waste of time when the crux remains true: Soldier does NOT have """"""""""""no weaknesses""""""""""""".

>"the quality or state of being weak; also : an instance or period of being weak"
Weakness is relative.
When you value HP the most in a given situation, Soldier is a weaker choice.
When you value DPS the most, soldier is a weaker choice.
When you value ground mobility the most, soldier is a weaker choice.
When you value range the most, soldier is a weaker choice.
When you value air mobility the most, soldier is a weaker choice.

>>385309207
and let's also not forget that unless you have pinpoint accuracy with the RL it's not going to 2shot, because splash suffers from falloff

>>385309956
You can do well with every class on pubs without requiring skill.

>>385310391
>the other requires you to injure yourself so you get to the frontline injured if you're not going to be rocket jumping.
1. How is this different from just rocket jumping?
2. Why are you comparing stock soldier to heavy with an unlock?
>It's not effortless. You have to hit moving targets with slow-moving projectiles that can be dodged and must be lead.
And leading a target is braindead easy. You don't even have to guess where they'll be, just the general direction they'll move in.
>Let's say another class with a hitscan weapon killed an enemy in the same situation. They would not die in the process of getting a kill.
The hitscan weapons in this game generally do less damage or have more setup time, so if the hypothetical hitscan guy would die from the same amount of damage as the soldier I'm guessing the he'd be dead either way.
Soldier has a hitscan weapon anyway, so really all he has to do is not use his rocket launcher if the enemy is that close. Of course he will anyway half the time, because he has too much health to give a shit.
>Weakness is relative.
Yes, but that can go both ways. None of the soldier's "weaknesses" are bad enough to stop him from being a good class in every situation.

>>385310693
>pinpoint accuracy
I wish I had an image of a smug anime girl to post at you.
If you think the soldier's rocket launcher require "pinpoint accuracy" for anything on the ground then you objectively need to git gud.

>>385310859
It's true that every class has a pretty low skill floor, but soldier's is one of the lowest.

>>385311723
>It's true that every class has a pretty low skill floor, but soldier's is one of the lowest.
No chance in hell when Heavy, Pyro and Engineer exist. Those are the go to classes for new players for a reason.

>>385311989
>Heavy
True, notice I said soldier was "one of the lowest" and not "the lowest"
>Pyro
Has shorter range and less health, so he has to think more about his positioning to reach "skill floor" effectiveness.
>Engineer
Arguably true, but not really a fair comparison because they function too differently.

>>385311579
>1. How is this different from just rocket jumping?
Way way less mobility duh?
>2. Why are you comparing stock soldier to heavy with an unlock?
Fine then let's compare walking stock shootsfeet Soldier to stock Heavy.
200HP? 300HP.
Projectile? Hitscan.
87 midrange DPS? 175 midrange DPS.
AND no reload time or clip size for Heavy.
Only advantage Soldier has at all compared to heavy is 3% more speed and no revving. If you're not rocket jumping you're gimping yourself hard as many anons other than I have told you. Take away rocket jumping from Soldier and he is a worse Heavy.
>And leading a target is braindead easy
No, it isn't. Not if you want literally the exact base damage of the weapon like you're claiming with your "two shot" argument.
Unless you're hitting perfectly on or under the target instead of relying on splash, your damage will drop by as low as 50%.
>The hitscan weapons in this game generally do less damage
See above.
>None of the soldier's "weaknesses" are bad enough to stop him from being a good class in every situation
And he isn't the BEST class in any situation either. You keep forgetting that that's Soldier's entire thing: He's never the worst choice, he's never the best choice either.

When in a situation where you would value any certain statistic by a lot, Soldier is a weaker choice because he excels in no area. Can we stop having this dumb argument now?

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>>385311723
>If you think the soldier's rocket launcher require "pinpoint accuracy" for anything on the ground then you objectively need to git gud
Hey fuckwit how about you fucking read the posts before you reply.

You need pinpoint accuracy IF YOU WANT THE FULL DAMAGE. You fucking moron. Splash suffers from FALLOFF.

>>385312334
>Has shorter range and less health, so he has to think more about his positioning to reach "skill floor" effectiveness.
Soldier is slower and at least needs to know how aim somewhat reliably. If all you're going to is spam chokepoints and hope to get some lucky kills then Demo is more effective at that.

>>385312375
>Way way less mobility duh?
But you're just going to the front line. Both options are faster and cause injury, any minor difference is irrelevant outside comp.
>200HP? 300HP.
>87 midrange DPS? 175 midrange DPS.
The difference is the soldier doesn't have to slow down to shoot, and isn't easily outmaneuvered as a result. Even with his relatively slow move speed,
>Projectile? Hitscan.
Yeah, projectiles with lots of splash that can hit people from around corners.
>Only advantage Soldier has at all compared to heavy is 3% more speed and no revving.
Even a soldier that never rocket jumps can consistently 1v1 heavies with ease if he uses cover or corner-shots them. It's almost like the heavy has massive, glaring weaknesses to make up for his strengths.
>Unless you're hitting perfectly on or under the target instead of relying on splash, your damage will drop by as low as 50%.
I know how splash works. It's still super fucking easy to get kills with the rocket launcher.
>>The hitscan weapons in this game generally do less damage
>See above.
You edited out the part where I mentioned setup time, which applies to the minigun.
>And he isn't the BEST class in any situation either. You keep forgetting that that's Soldier's entire thing
>a jack of all trades character can't be overpowered because he's supposed to be good at everything
Soldier's versatility elevates him above any kind of situational effectiveness, and that's the problem.

>>385312448
I know how fucking splash works, and I still don't think it's hard to get kills with it because it isn't.

>Soldier is slower
So? He barely even needs mobility outside comp.
>at least needs to know how aim somewhat reliably.
You already know I think the idea of a soldier having to aim is basically a joke, but honestly I would absolutely give up having to aim slightly less as a pyro if it meant having the soldier's effective range.
>If all you're going to is spam chokepoints and hope to get some lucky kills then Demo is more effective at that.
The soldier's easy damage output makes him more reliable in non-spam situations while still allowing him to spam like a shitter.

>>385297723
reduction of splash damage to encourage the fag to aim

>>385314657
>scout is now the only class in the game

>all these soldier mains trying to deflect attention away from themselves onto scouts because scouts are maybe the one class that stand a chance against them
Nice try soldiers, your nerfing will be glorious.

>>385308194
As a pubstomping heavy I approve of this.

>>385315045
>seriously thinking soldier will ever be nerfed

>>385311989
While engi is forgiving if you can't aim no matter how many hours you put in, new players aren't getting much out of the class desu. You need to watch other engis first to see where and when to build, move the gear up and also develop some awareness to your counters.

Heavy is the noob friendliest class desu. You'll usually get a lot of attention of medics and from there it's just point and click.

>>385316115
Then the Sniper or Spy with 20 hours in the game dominates you and you switch classes. Heavy is definitely not for new players. Soldier is the only class with a skill floor low enough.

>>385308194
>upcoming Minigun changes
nani?

>>385304085
INCREASE the guillotine recharge? I thought that's a little harsh. First you have to actually land the thing and second the bleed only does 50 fucking damage. You're never going to throw more than 1 in a single fight anyway.

Is it worth reinstalling? Overwatch doesn't scratch the itch AT ALL and I'm tired of my other multiplayer FPS.

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>>385316460

>>385304085
Thank god you don't design games

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>>385315045
>He actually thinks soldier will get nerfed

>>385297758
/thread

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>f2ps still butthurt about soldier
your tears sustain me

>>385316746
I don't get how people can say that's a great buff.
It's ok, but it won't change Heavy's downsides at all.

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>No shield to block bullet damage to help with Scout/heavy and make Pain-train worth using
>No SHIELD with melee resistance like a fucking shield should
>Wooden shield provides fire resist
>Claid still shit
>Valve thinks Demoknight matters at all enough to nerf him

>>385317340
Claid nerf was weird, nobody ever complained about that weapon.

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>>385316746

>>385317317
Heavies get shit on so much that anything that isn't a nerf is a welcome sight

>>385317420
thats because the valve eployees they have left never played anything but dota 2 and CSGO

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>>385298762
Actually, this.

We need to stop nerfing the metric fuck out of everything somewhat fun left in the game and start buffing some shit already. Nerfing is one the big reasons this game is going to shit. Just look at almost every good Pyro weapon.

Remove sniper.

The class never made any game more fun for anybody, sniper included.

>>385317973
I know brainlets find hard to think about actual balancing, thinking is hard after all.
But could you at least attempt to make your neurons move for a second and come up with something that doesn't involve erasing a whole class or even a weapon from a game?

>>385318080
Sniper main detected. And like all sniper mains, he's a complete shithead.

>>385317264
I think all the classes are balanced as of now. Engineer could use better weapon choices and pyro needs some tlc but heavy, scout, spy, soldier, medic, demo, and sniper are balanced to me.
I want more weapon options for heavy like a 40k autocannon that shoots single shells slowly or a lascannon. New heavy buffs are welcomed. Medic crusaders crossbow nerf is unnecessary in my opinion.
Stock spy will go back to most efficient once amby dies.never liked the DR.

>>385297723
By getting gud you shitter

>>385318545
DR was such a mistake. Spy's own team suffers for it because it makes the spy slower at his job and enemy team suffers for it because there's a goddamn cockroach running around.

>>385315045
>hasn't been nerfed 4 almost 10 years now
>thinks it will be now
pyro is much more op anyway

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>>385318757
>pyro is much more op anyway
OHAHAHAHAHHA

>>385318907
even a first day w+m1 f2p can make it to the middle of the scoreboard with it. And a pyro who know his shit can wipe out the half of the enym team without serious effort.

>>385297723
How would you nerf the medic so that he's no longer mandatory?

>>385319103
medick is fine as he is. a nerfed one would be close to useless

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>>385300376
>getting this triggered

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>>385319103
At this point I don't want to nerf anyone. That's the reason everyone thinks Soldier is OP. He's not, he's just been nerfed the least. I don't think Valve even remembers how to make games at this point, but someone who actually knows what the hell their doing needs to step in for an update and buff/re-balance everything. Nerfing everything just isn't fun.

>>385319160
He's not fine. A team with no medic will lose to a team with a medic every single time. And two medics in one team is just bullshit because the fuckers turn into an unkillable symbiote.

>>385319273
>a team without support will lose to a team that has some
wow so surprising

>>385319413
A team with engineer and no medic will lose to a team with no engineer and a medic.

"We have an unbalanced team, medic pls switch to something else"

Said nobody who ever lived.

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TONIGHT'S THE NIGHT

>>385319524
I said it to a combat medic

TF2 needs more buffs than nerfs.
There are still many many useless weapons that have been previously nerfed into oblivion (or had their gimmick changed completely) that need readjusting. Stock loadouts should be equal to the "sidegrades", not outright superior.

Soldier simply has the best and most balanced alternate weapon choices, the other classes should have his level of variety not the other way around.

this reminded me i got one of the first soldier medals for clicking on that link

the prices of those things went down so hard wtf mine is a super low number but probably still worthless

>>385320078
give it 2 me then

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>>385318545
>Engineer could use better weapon choices and pyro needs some tlc but heavy, scout, spy, soldier, medic, demo, and sniper are balanced to me.
They all need a bit of work

Demo needs his airburst radius nerf reverted and bug fixes
Scout either needs less scattergun knockback or slighty more spread
Soldier needs escape plan/whip nerfed and shovel/equalizer buffs
Medic speed buff needs to be reverted, crossbow/ubersaw need actual downsides, syringe guns need buffs, and medics shouldn't be able to overheal each other or stack heals on one target
Engineer needs to be completely reworked to focus on offense and not babysitting buildings that do the work for him
Spy needs bugfixes, revolvers need slightly less spread, new support options, and cloak needs to be more reliable
Sniper needs to have his base speed and firing rate reduced so missing is punished more and it's harder for him to rotate or get away from an attacker
Pyro is a fucking mess and I really don't know how to fix him, I'm curious to see what changes valve made to him

>>385319902
Soldier's primary unlocks aren't that great though. DH is only workable in very capable hands, shit otherwise. LL is shit full stop. Air Strike only works as a "win more" pub weapon. Beggar's has little splash nowadays. Cow mangler is just stock, except worse if there's a fiendly kritz or enemy sentry. Black box is OK-ish for pubs, but its downside is severe.

He does have an incredible array of secondary weapons though, there's no denying that.

>>385302734
That's also why 8v8 is the limit on consoles

>>385320386
>nerfing escape plan again
Spotted the retarded. Is a low hp marked solly that cannt be healed by medic but can run fast that hard do deal with

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just left a game on upward against a whole team of pyros and engies
blew up 15 fucking sentries and still could not push

this class is pure fucking cancer

What should Valve do to show off all the classes to comp scene? Prolander?

>>385321395
>cannot be healed by medic
that hasn't been the case for a while now, now it's an escape tool AND an uber building utility

>>385321395
When he's out of sight in the first place and comes back healed 2 times faster than he's supposed to, kind of.

>>385321451
prolander is just a shitter version of highlander
if offclasses want more time on the field valve needs to make them more versatile

>>385321536
just because the medic can connect to him it doesn't mean he can be effectively healed. Also in 1500 hours i haven't seen a med that uses ep solly to build up über

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>>385297723
Remove gunboats so that Soldier is no longer completely uncontested in mobility.
I honestly 100% truely think this would fix him

>>385322556
t. demoman

>>385321448
>15 senties
Engie isnt cancer your 16v16 server makes engie OP

>>385322603
Can you give me an actual reason instead? I honestly think this is worse for scouts who should be the most mobile class.

>>385317340
Demoknight is fun as shit but also dumb as shit. Should have just made a melee-only class.

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>>385322529
>just because the medic can connect to him it doesn't mean he can be effectively healed
if he wants to get healed all he has to do is switch away. escape plan is an uber building utility, makes rollouts easy, and is an escape tool. It's easily soldiers best melee. Hell it's even better than stock for killing people because soldier is too slow to catch backpedaling players.

>Also in 1500 hours i haven't seen a med that uses ep solly to build up über
That's because in pubs it's easy to build at max speed with so many hurt players but in competitive where there's less players and having uber ready first can win games it's incredibly important. Go watch any competitive match you'll see scouts and soldiers building with boston basher and escape plan frequently.

>>385322784
A soldier who keeps jumping all the time has less rockets in clip for dealing damage and no secondary to back it up. Gunboats encourage good gamesense and ammo management.

>>385322830
>People unironically want a melee class when CQB is pyro's job
If they add a new class it shouldnt conflict with the original classes roles.

>>385322919
>not being on catalog 24/7
At least your pic was alright

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>no gamemode where the 60's mercs fight the modern mercs
WHY THE FUCK NOTT????

>>385323085
too much work

>>385319103
Dispensers can overheal.

>>385323085
What modern mercs? TFC's classes are from the 30s according to TF2 lore

>>385322971
It also makes soldier the best class by far and should be removed for messing with game balance. Soldier should be a jack of all trades masterf of none. Now he is jack of all trades master of mobility. Giving up a rocket is worth it for a good soldier because 2 is enough to kill all classes besides heavy from full hp.

The game has been out for 10 years and they still haven't gotten the balance right? What the fuck is valve doing?

>>385323290
>from the 30s
really? seems like theyd come after the TF2 mercs with alltheir high tech gear and appearance, though they would have been from the 90's with it being a half life(and quake) mod and all that

>>385323479
Nothing, most of the time.

>>385323501
Remember, 1890s Australia is futuristic.

I really don't get it. I'm fine with stacks of every class, but the instant someone tries to heavyrush or soldier rush I get fucking furious. Heavies just because it turns into a medic fiesta, and soldier because he's such a low risk high reward class with no conceivable way to counterpick, so there's no way to help tip the scales in your favor like going engie to counter fags who scout rush

>>385323018
Pyro is more of a skirmisher nowadays, like a shittier scout.
I unironically get more close quarter kills with the soldier.

>>385317973
>objective based game with close to mid-range combat
>duuuh lets make a class that stands on the other side of the map for 30 minutes and kills people at long range with hitscan weapons and never comes close to the map objective
what the hell were they thinking

>>385323765
>when everyone decides to go heavy on frontier offense and just sits on the cart like a giant deathball

>>385323765
go demo and spam, retard.

They should rename Pyro to the Airblaster so that new players don't get the wrong idea and try to use the flame parts of their flamethrowers.

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>>385322919
this reminds me of something

>>385317973
Sniper just makes the game less fun for everyone involved

Rocket launcher has only one rocket to a clip before reloading.
Buff projectile speed and damage (direct hit-tier), leave splash radius as is, slightly increase reload time.
Make gun boats and parachute class features and not secondaries.
Give him a more accurate secondary, like a carbine rifle as a more reliable backup at mid-range.
Increase his movement speed a bit.

He'll be more like the soldier class in Enemy Territory with the Panzer Faust. A devastating one-hit kill to most classes, but he can't spam it so he'll be vulnerable if he misses and gets caught. With the perma gun boats he won't gib himself and with the parachute he can still fire a rocket or two from the air despite the reload time, at the cost of being more vulnerable to ground targets. With the carbine he'll still be a viable front line class but less mobile.

>>385323373
>because 2 is enough to kill all classes besides heavy from full hp.
Not with overheal

>>385322664
It wasn't 16v16, they just rebuilt them immediately.

>>385325302
>only one rocket
that's fucking retarded, that would kill advanced rocket jumping

>>385325768
That's the point. Soldier is too mobile and does too much direct damage, but nerfing one aspect without buffing the other will make him useless. I chose damage over mobility, but feel free to come up with a way to swap it.

>>385325371
3 direct hits deal 300 DMG meaning that that is enough to kill all classes besides soldier and heavy when a medic is on them

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>>385323290
>>385323501
Nah fuck that. Make a game mode based on the 1850s TF2 Mercs. I wanna cave a nigga's skull in with a sledgehammer as John Henry.

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>out of the blue we must bend by the comps who played nine years in they own little universe with the back turn to the game

I dont blame you for all the problems, the group of people doing balance changes in tf2 is plain retard and they clearly balance shit like this is csgo but hear me out:

Back in the day balance changes used to be mostly about destroying abusive strats for both sides which worked better in the long run. Now since the balance team is plain stupid we get nothing but anything fun desstroyed within months.

Can TF2 be save? Yes it can but they need the original team back to do a mayor overhaul.

>>385326529
Crit a cola absolutely deserves a nerf.

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>>385326529
?????

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>round ended
>people are voting for turbine next

>>385328785
>just finished a hour long stalemate on 2fort
>people vote it up again

>>385329302
You genuinely might have brain damage if you choose to play play 2fort, and that includes having it enabled in the map selection list for casual matchmaker.

>>385297723
Not even remotely overpowered. The game is pretty balanced. the sticky bomb launcher is my only problem.

>>385298139
>b4nny gets absolutely BTFO by an iron soldier
well so much for the "s-soldier isn't OP" argument

>>385329695
why

>>385326160
>That's the point
Then you're fucking retarded, that would drop soldiers skill ceiling significantly and make him about as hard to play as heavy.

>>385297758
This is how games should tackle inbalance more. Bring others to the same level making them fun, instead of pulling the fun stuff down into the category of boring.

>>385326208
3 direct hits means you won't have a rocket to jump out with and is very risky.

>>385297723
I would limit his ammo and give him a medium-slow reload speed. 4 rockets seems fair.
He should also have to trade health and ammo for mobility. Players who to abuse mobility further would have to give up even more, perhaps his trusty side-arm.
To round it out, I'd give him the 2nd largest frame so he takes a lot of hits, while also having an easy head for snipers to get.

I think that seems fair.

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>unironic discussion about "competitive TF2"
I miss when you faggots got laughed out of the thread for even bringing up TF2 comp, now just because Valve shit out a terrible update everyone on here is a genius at weapon balancing and class design? Fuck out of here, this is worse than loadout posting

>>385329918
M1+M2 spamming from around a corner into spawn or onto an objective is difficult to stop. Especially if he is hiding behind a wave of teammates.

>>385329918
>>385331608
Also just to add, the SBL would be a better weapon if they really increased the arm time. That way it would be used a trap device like it was meant to instead of a secondary grenade launcher.

>>385330516
Competitive tf2 is just as cringeworthy as SSB competitive. But both are at there core games that are designed for fun and unique gameplay, just ruined by tryhards.

>>385332085
You can say this about every game, really.

Can you give ONE argument in favor of random crits? All they do is occasinally give bad players a kill they didn't deserve.

>>385297723
remove fundamental fps skill from tf2

>>385331739
they tried that once
little children forced them to roll it back

>>385299451
that was me as medic. you guys were shit and couldn't protect me so I had to do the heavy lifting.

>>385332412
It discourages stalemates by giving players who are dealing a lot of damage bigger chance of getting crits

>>385329695
>Being litterly wrong
Its all about pro levels where Soldier is a lot better then Demo

>>385298494
Medic needs a slight nerf, but engie needs a buff to his dispenser that does more healing to his allies
The dispenser should be a stationary heal station that does more healing (if only by a small amount) at the cost of no being able to move, thus being vulnerable to enemy fire

>>385330103
Wow, so you can kill anyone that isnt being overhealed, this means soldier is so OP that it forces medics an other OP class
Reloads dont even take that long.

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>>385324170
>demo beating soldier

Nice joke, let me tell one. Guy is freezing while on a boat, so he decides to start a fire. The boat promptly sinks. Just goes to show you can't have your kayak and heat it too.

>>385332085
Comp TF2 is so fucking forced in the first place.

>>385333324
You're right becaue soldier is the only class who can do 300+ damage. Forget scout and demo who can do multiple times that on a single target or heavy with his 500dps.

>>385326376
Why did you make me want this

Shut down Team Fortress 2.

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>can hit consistently with most weapons
>try to use any Sniper weapon
>can land body shots if I'm lucky
What's wrong with me?

soldier mains are a cancer

>>385330516
>>385332085
>>385332294
>>385334582
Why do /v/ermin hate anything competitive?
Probably because they suck ass

>>385336956
Because its awful to watch and they are worse meta fags then most mobtards

Add personalities worse then the average speed runner for your player base and you now know why no one has ever given half a shit about tf2 comp

>>385297723
How would they be able to make TF2 fun again?

>>385337895
remove matchmaking
There. game is x10 better now.

>>385337791
Then don't watch it?
Balancing the game for the average shitter is retarded as shit.
Thank god Valve isn't that retarded.

>>385338039
No one wants the game to be balanced around 12v12

No one plays 6s or hl outside of the autistic who need a containment mode

The new changes will not bring in more people to the dwindling comptards fyi

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>>385338039
Yeah, like '''balancing''' the game for scout and soldier mains is any better. Can't wait to see everything that isn't stock (and the ubersaw) get nerfed into the fucking ground with the Jungle update.

>>385338039
>balancing around comp
>when most of the people play 12v12

>>385338462
>>385338608
No one plays 6v6 because it's not balanced at the moment retards.

>>385338571
The proposed changes literally nerf scout.

>>385297723
I wouldn't he's fine

>>385297859
Sniper, scout, demo, pyro, even a medic could. It's not hard.

>>385299923
Stickies between the two to make them fuck off.
Pyros
The air strike.

lol get fucking good, soldiers are easy to outdm just play scout

>>385302431
I usually hang out on 16v16 servers. More players = more fun.

>>385338770
Comp scouts go straight to stock/stock/boston basher every time, so not one of those proposed changes affect them. The Sandman and Cola changes are well deserved, but don't fucking drag the Flying Guillotine into this.

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>be heavy
>get caught at low health by soldier and his medic gf
>I'm dead so might as well jump around to buy a few seconds
>he missed all 4 DH rockets at point blank range, at a heavy
>started reloading and missed two more
>finally whipped out his melee to kill me
I felt like that guy made a profound statement about Direct Hit.

>>385297723
Buff everyone else.

>>385340009
Also most of the weapons nerfed are banned anyway right now

>>385340825
Okay, now the newly buffed characters are stronger than everything else. To the point where it completely dominates now. What's the next step in your master plan? To keep buffing everything until it is literally out of control? This fucking statement is retarded.

>>385336956
Because comp players are the most whiny emotional subculture of any game, who always end up bitching to the developers about how anything fun should be deleted. They're obnoxious tryhards who are more obsessed with feeling good about themselves through vidya games and spamming their autismal numbers masturbation everywhere, than having an enjoyable game. They've been reviled since as long as I can remember, and they're unfortunately becoming more catered to.

>>385336956
They suck at the games and more often than not use unbalanced shit as crutches to do good, since competitive means balanced games and high skill of course they don't like it.

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>>385340495
>be soldier
>defense on pic related
>annoying heavy and his medic gf on other team somehow get an uber every two seconds, but we manage to hold them back
>ENOUGH
>rocket jump around corner and bomb med hiding in corner, say 'Thanks!' to the heavy, and jump away
>heavy: leave my medic alone
>me: no
>proceed to dominate them both
>we held for 15-20 mins and won
God bless the Gunboats.

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>play sniper
>use croc shield
>stand perfectly still when up against enemy snipers and tank the first quickscope
>kill them
>taunt

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>>385318757
>pyro is much more op anyway
Oh but wait, you're gonna move the goal post to people who just installed the game.

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How can I become more fashionable? I have a fuck-load of refine, so, cost isn't an issue; I'm just trying to look good.

>inb4 youre what killed the game
I don't care, cosmetics don't bother you or affect game-play aside from letting people express themselves. I'm not looking for unusual or goofy shit anyways.

>>385343258
Go to loadout.tf and experiment

>>385343258
Use loadout.tf. Otherwise just give your class a theme instead of trying to make it look cool and edgy like every bruiser's bandanna wearer

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>>385343258
see
>>385343545
>>385343637

If you're not sure where to look, scrap.tf and stn.tf are good places to quickly get the hats you want since they both use a team of bots. They also don't charge extra if it's painted or has parts, which is kind of nice.

Give me a cosmetic and I'll make a decent loadout.

>>385344304
Yeah, I'm toying around on loadout right now. Any recommendations for something all class related? If I can cut the amount of refined I'll be spending in half, while still looking good that'll be nice.

>>385344479
Dead of Night, Co-Pilot, Brown Bomber, and the Salty Dog are choice picks.

>>385323765
>heavy rush
Demoman + Kritzkrieg Medic combo utterly destroys them. A good Sniper supporting can also help a lot.

>soldier rush
This one is actually pretty difficult due to the Soldier being a very well-rounded class. A well-balanced team should, in theory, beat a Soldier rush due to the strengths of the other classes outshining the Soldier's jack-of-all-trades style.

A single Soldier can't take out a Sentry Gun effectively due to the Rocket Launcher's DPS being 112.5 against buildings whilst the Engineer repairs at a rate of 125 HP/s. Try to maintain higher ground with Sentry Gun nests and use a Pyro to reflect any of the incoming rockets. Classes such as the Heavy should keep Soldiers away whilst Demomen can deny routes of attack and Scouts and Spies can keep other Soldiers distracted. Medics keep the team healed and occasionally push in with the Heavy, Demo or Soldier. Finally, the Sniper lays down some support fire.

Im not even a compfag but I dont understand all the hate against their meta, stock is better and more fun in 99% of the situations

>>385346705
what is this post trying to accomplish, anon