how do you feel about fights you're supposed to lose?

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>>385198963
>losing

Cool, as long as there is some secret you get for actually managing to beat it.

they were initially a fun subversion but they're pretty annoying at this point.

the best way of doing it is to have an actual way to win, just make it really difficult. and if you lose the game continues on regardless.

nowhere near as bad as some of the shit in fighting game stories, where your player character wins the actual gameplay segment of the fight but then their opponent pulls some bullshit in the following cutscene and technically 'wins'

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Honestly, this made me stop playing the game. If you have to lose at least make it super obvious and quick. How was I supposed to know Nathan fucking Drake, the most adventurest guy who ever lived is supposed to lose to this fucking soul sister

I hate it when you don't know you're supposed to lose and use up all available resources and a lot of time trying to beat it, only to realise you don't have to.
In Megaman X it's okay as the boss kills you very quickly and you have no resources at that time to spend. The second time you encounter Boba Fett in his mech you already know you're supposed to lose again.

Fine as long as they make it obvious. There's nothing worse than plinking away at a guy for a few minutes just to find out their HP refuses to drop below 1.

>>385199313
Nathan Drake has lived a life of white privilege his whole life. It just makes sense that Nadine Ross, who has had to struggle under the yoke of the white man's patriarchy would be made of stronger stuff. Besides, Africans invented martial arts.

>>385198963
They can be amazing if done right. Mostly that they are used as a teaching tool and to show you later how much you have come. But a lot just use it to waste your time, or even worse, a multistage fight that you HAVE to win, but cutscene has you lose.

>>385199358
>use up all available resources and a lot of time trying to beat it,
this, it's pretty shitty

they tend to suffer from one of two problems:

-they can be spotted a mile away, so you don't even put up a fight, you just give up

-they seem too much like regular boss battles so you waste all your resources only to find out it's a battle you can't win

They're obnoxious if they are treated as a regular fight that just doesn't seem to end or the enemy uses just uses an insta-kill move at a certain point

Metal Gear Rising has a pretty good example of one done right at the start of the game. It's pretty obvious you're supposed to lose and it hypes you up for the later rematch.

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Fights you can't win are better.

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>Boss you're SUPPOSED to lose to.
>Can actually beat him through clever use of skills or whatever.
>Game acknowledges this by giving you a special item before having him just cutscene KO you once the fight ends anyways.

God tier solution:

>put you up against an invincible boss
>turns out the solution is to run, not fight

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>Fight you're supposed to lose
>But you can win
>You have limited recovery items
>Including some which activate automatically when you get killed
There's no reward for winning

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>Oh shit this fight is way too hard, it's probably one of those fights you're supposed to lose
>Turns out it's not

>Boss copies all your attacks
>To win you do nothing

It would be really cool if they put you up against the final boss (completely unchanged) at the start of the game and it was possible for you to beat him and finish the game right there. It would have to be so hard that nobody would beat it on their first try, but people who had already beaten the game were able to kill him right at the beginning.

Demon Souls did it right
>inb4 everyone here beat Vanguard first try with DeS being their first souls game
He absolutely stomped your ass the first time you go in
If you replay the game you go in there and laugh at how easy the faggot is and get some nice bonuses for kicking his ass
Then proceed to get btfo anyways

>>385199691
>God tier
more like absolutely horrible, it's the core of all those shitty horror games where you can't fight enemies and have to hide from them

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>fight you are supposed to lose
>win anyway

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>>385199634
only if you have to escape or have a slim chance of winning. ones that you have no choice but die are pretty bad.

>>385199880
>Turns out you're actually supposed to survive for 5 or so minutes so the boss unleashes his super move to kill everyone, which is essentially no different from him killing everyone beforehand.

I forget what game did this, but it pissed me off.

>>385200021
why would it be cool to end the game when you start it?

>>385200021
Two Worlds did that (unintentionaly)

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I dont care that you are supposed to lose to this boss im going to keep starting over right before i die until i beat him >:(

>>385199225
Every single fight in the ninja storm games
Sole reason I stopped buying them after they did it in two games, refused to support that shit after that

>>385200047
Literally how?
I used the master style on him and still lost

>>385198963
>he didn't know about the trick to beat vile and get the upgraded buster at the start of the game

wow. neo-/v/ is real

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>>385200026
>Have no trouble with any of the "problem bosses" in the franchise.
>Still always fuck up during the Tutorial Vanguard

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biggest piss off

>>385200026
This.

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>>385199880

>>385200486
Not difficult.

>>385198963

>Good Tier
-You can win and the plot branches if you do
-You can win and the game not only acknowledges you did but also rewards you for it with unique items even if the plot stays on the same track

>Acceptable Tier
-You can win and the game rewards you with unique items but it otherwise doesn't acknowledge the victory (IE you win but then you still lose in the cutscene but at least I got this nice hat)
-You can't win but it comes early enough in the game that it still feels like part of the tutorial
-You can't win on a normal playthrough but on NG+ you can

>Obnoxious Tier
-You can't win and it comes late in the game when you're already skilled at playing the game
-You can win but the game doesn't acknowledge or reward you for it, you still lose in the cutscene and you have nothing to show for the victory
-You can't win, the boss is insultingly easy, but since it has unlimited health the only way to progress is to lose to it on purpose

>>385200486
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLzZCMaGsvM

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>It's a "supposed to lose but only after doing a certain amount of damage/surviving for a certain amount of time" fight

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>>385200574
>You can win and you get the special ending if you do
I only wish that we got a real ending for killing Lavos at the Ocean Palace. It seems like there's a possibility for an especially interesting serious story conclusion but apparently a big easter egg is better.

>>385200026
>inb4 everyone here beat Vanguard first try with DeS being their first souls game
It's really not that rare anon. I'd say roughly half of players beat him their first try even back when Demon's was the only game.

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how do you feel about levels you're supposed to lose?

>>385200812
>You can win and you get the special ending if you do
That would fall under plot branch.

>>385200848
I seriously doubt that
No popular game up until then had played like it and people walked in blind to get smashed
If Des was not your first souls game I believe that but, fuck anyone who claims to have gone in completely blind when DeS first came out and won
>>385200808
AHHHH there you are!
>teleports behind you

>>385200021

Breath of the Wild did this, they just fucked up in making Ganon challenging.

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It's fine as long as they're obviously not meant to be beaten (e.g. one-hit KO moves). If they just seem really hard, you can't be sure if it's just a hard boss, and then you end up wasting items trying to beat it.

I think they work narratively.

Shitters whine about using up their potions or whatever thinking they could win, but that's kind of the point. It's supposed to feel like you lost, a major set back. Taking a dive deliberately to conserve resources because you know you can't win ahead of time cheapens that.

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>>385200957

No that one is the optional Lavos fight. This is a plot fight that ends with Lavos firing spines on everybody, and then Crono goes in to die.

>>385201050
>fuck anyone who claims to have gone in completely blind when DeS first came out and won
I was one such person and I introduced the game to a friend who did the same. Yes I'm aware plenty of people lose to Vanguard on their first try but you're greatly overestimating the learning curve for Demon's Souls if you consider beating him on your first try an impossibility. Hell, that same friend beat the asylum demon on his first try with Demon's Souls using the broken sword, now that I probably wouldn't have believed if I wasn't sitting there when he did it.

>>385201302
I remember fighting one of those in Xenosaga. Ended up wasting most of my healing items before I realized I wasn't supposed to be able to beat the guy.

>>385201352
You can win it, and the plot branches if you do.

>>385199685
fucking Octostrike. Guy was best Guy already but this put the icing on the cake. Lufia 2 was the RPG GOAT

So long as there's nothing at risk by trying to beat them. Wasting health items only to find out i was supposed to fucking die is some of the worst shit i've seen in games.

>>385201320
Name one time that has ever been the case and it didn't feel like forced railroading bullshit. I'll wait.

>>385201352
And how does that change the fact that you can win and the plot branches if you do?

Sometimes they are done well, such as with Vile or with the SAX. And sometimes they aren't done well, such as with Beatrix or Nadine.

Make it a regular boss fight that just ends at a certain point where the boss just pulls out some unvaoidable OHKO move once you've dealt enough damage.

>>385201302
>Let's give one of the few pre-Master Thief availability 1/256 steal rates to a boss that's on a hidden time limit.

Fuck you, Square.

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>Early on you're faced with three endgame bosses with a team of new characters that you can't upgrade or equip before the mission starts
>You're clearly supposed to run the fuck away since these guys can easily oneshot you if you're not careful
>But if you play it smart you can take them all out over the course of hundreds of turns and even more reloads
>If you kill them, AND you have to do it in the right order, the last guy to go down breaks the fourth wall to tell you you're awesome and gives you a bunch of the games best gear
>...still have to run away to end the mission, though

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You're on chapter 3,and this flat chested fornacatress smacks your princess on the ass. What do?

>>385200021
Technically you can do this in CT.

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I'm okay if they're beatable just really hard and you get something extra if you manage to beat them.

>>385201949
Ask her to be my gf

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>>385200662
>spinning and triple slash

>>385201980
Only on NG+. The earliest part of the game where you can fight Lavos in a regular game is the End of Time.

>>385200662
Why does Aztec Falcon only have one life bar anyway? Every other boss has two, minimum.

>>385199826
Oh my God mystery dungeon will never not piss me off. I love the game to pieces, but some of these things were bullshit.

>>385199063
In Ninja Gaiden DS you're pretty much expected to lose the beginning boss fight as Momiji, but if you manage to defeat the boss you can play as her and look for Ryu instead

>>385201320

If they're narratively required, then use the narrative to avoid frustration.

For example, make a boss that punishes item use so you don't use expendables. Use a turn counter to ensure the player doesn't discover a loop and waste a lot of time (SOA had this problem with a Ramirez fight, that a properly built party could infinitely tank using S moves.)

Designing a losing boss fight isn't hard, it just takes a bit of critical thought.

>>385198963
That Megaman Unlimited "final boss" is retarded as hell, there's literally no point to ever replay this part once you've unlocked the stuff by completing the game.

In Vile's case I wish the game gave you the choice to defeat him and then have a small scene about him making a comeback. The sad thing is that you can still die in this fight but you can't win.

>>385201320
>I think they work narratively

Literally the death of gaming and the rise of "developers vision" cancer.

>>385200084
Final Fantasy IX does it with basically every fight against Beatrix.

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>>385199063
You rang?

>>385198963
I prefer it when they make it so you have to last as long as possible before they either do some bullshit unblockable move or something else interrupts.

>>385199685
Can you actually beat him at that point without grinding much? I used cheats

>>385202343
Maybe so but it worked for Vile for a number of reasons. Aside from the obvious part of showing how weak X initially is, it sets up a distinction between Vile and his ride armor. You lose the second time you confront him as well, as does Zero to show that his ride armor has been improved. But once Zero suicides to take the ride armor out, and after X gets his second wind, you actually fight Vile himself, who you can defeat.

It gives you a big "yeah not so tough without your fancy armor huh?" moment. Vile himself was never unbeatable, just his ride armor, so once you get rid of it you get to show how strong you really are and beat his ass.

>RPG has terminals that allow you to transfer your consciousness to different points in time
>Can kill final boss early and get different endings for it
>One of these machines doesn't work and is assumed it's broken or left there as a dev prank
>Also get useless comical items
>Turns out if you equip a specific endgame gear that looks useless, (eye of truth or something), and analyse one of these items you find a secret item
> Go back and use item on the terminal and it gives you a machine that can transfer consciousness between saves
>Beating said boss early with this save unlocks an entire 20 hour quest line that dives deeper into the plot.

Now that would be awesome

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>Unwinnable fight but if you don't hit some invisible damage quota before you die you get a Game Over

>>385198963
I always beat him on the Game Boy version.

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Sup fagets

Real cheap when he just stops taking any damage even when I keep headshotting him with my sniper.

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>Get to boss at a low level
>By playing well it seems like it's actually possible to beat it
>Lolno if you take to long you get hit by an attack that wipes your entire party
Fuck you FF13 for wasting my fucking time

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>Lose fight you are supposed to lose
>Have to fight two of them later

>>385203091
At least you can beat his ass the last time and even get a special action to finish him off. Just imagine if he were a woman.

>>385200382
When the players gets unlimited tries to beat a boss it's fine, but when a boss gets unlimited tries to beat a player you don't like it. Really makes me think.

>>385203209

You can kill that prick in the first fight, but Dalton somehows one shot the team afterward.

>>385203091
The obnoxious part of that fight is it's with a character who comes out of fucking nowhere, the fight takes place when you're already 80% done with the story of the third game in a trilogy which up to this point didn't have any other supposed to lose fights, the fight itself is easy as fuck, and when you fight him again 10 minutes later it's an even more patronizingly easy than it was the first time so the fight isn't even satisfying.

This would have worked if the supposed to lose fight came in the first game and you finish him off in the third, you don't introduce this shit at the tail end of the story and resolve it ten fucking minutes later.

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>>385198963
>fighting a battle
>boss is extremely difficult
>"ah, this is one of those fights I'm supposed to lose. Cool"
>lose
>game over screen

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>>385203704
>Grind and prepare for an entire day
>Stock up on items, level up your skills, learn new attacks
>Analyze the fight and come up with an optimal strategy as you carefully consider your team composition, skills, abilities, equipment and organization
>Fight him again for 4 hours straight but eventually run out of resources and die again
>He actually was a supposed to lose fight you just barely fell short of the invisible damage quota the first time

>>385203704
>>385203906
what games?

>>385203560
Yeah that's what bothered me the most. A literal who is suddenly the biggest threat against your party and his character completely ruins any immersion you have left. For fucks sake he's even seen in the same room as the illusive man ruining his character as well

>>385200662
He fucking cut him in half! That's brutal for a Megaman game.

>>385206291
That's what happens to all the bosses. MMZ is the edgy spinoff.

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>>385206291
>>385206336
Not the first time though: https://youtu.be/6KBWQeBJuZs?t=3m17s

Shame they never explored this effect with other bosses. Yet another unused spin on old Mega Man tropes.

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>>385206291

He got better.

>>385198963
I don't mind them in the beginning of a game. In that way I don't have any items to waste healing myself, and its usually there just for a "look how much stronger you are" moment near the end.

However if its a forced loss battle out of fucking nowhere mid-game, fuck that shit.

>>385200880
Loved how they handled the end of reach I was a non halofag and thought I could turn the tide and maybe get off reach, and retake it but once the music and glassing started I knew it was a non winnable fight

Tfw objective: Survive

>>385202920
>Hiding 20 hours of content in an easter egg

>>385202774
you could but it would take forever, you have to be around lvl 30-40 in this fight. on a second playthrough you get multiplied xp (double or triple, I'm not sure) then you can beat him easily.

>>385200021
Chrono Trigger