Dude white phosphorus lmao

Is this the deepest video game ever made?

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do bad thing! you have literally no other choice. DO BAD THING!
>does bad thing
"wow... i'm so evil... deep"

>>384917941
Sounds like normal storytelling to me. You could take the facts from the pivotal event of the greatest novel ever written and express them in as simple words as possible, put it in greentext with a reaction image, and it would sound retarded. I haven't played this, but usually this kind of complaint is just a case of kids thinking they're super beings made of pure pragmatism and savvy intelligence and therefore anything that is in any way dramatic is "pretentious" and "2deep4u".

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>>384916996
Is it really so hard for autists to realize it was a story about how the PROTAGONIST had a choice and not how the player had a choice?

>>384917941
There were several cases where you did have a choice
>surrounded by crowd
>shoot the guy who punches you
>or spray the crowd
>or just shoot in the air

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>>384919715
two people fall in love for no reason yet their parents do not like this cuz their groups or some shit don't like each other.
they decide the best way to get together is to secretly marry and then fake suicides but then the guy does not know she is actually faking so he kills himself like a cuck and she then also kys.
wow so deep

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>>384919995
>or just shoot in the air

Fuck, does that work?
I... i never thought of trying that before blasting all of them...

>>384920356
Yes, or you can also melee into one and it scares them off.

>>384919995
Did any of that have any consequences at all? Did it even change the scenes themselves?

>>384919995
why would I spare the fucking sandniggers after they ganged up on a brave american soldiers?
didn't really feel bad for any of the 'choices' I made in the game

>>384916996
dude pretentious storytelling lmao

>>384917941
The game isn't necessarily telling you to feel bad for Walker's actions, the game is mocking you for how childish the hero fantasy is.

This is the problem with video game storytelling. People didn't have enough sense to separate themselves from Walker, you aren't him. The game isn't calling you a shithead, its calling walker a shithead and asking if it was right for him to bomb the shit out of innocents in order to save himself and go after the big bad. But nope, if you criticize the main character you also criticize the player as well. Lets not mention the multitude of other fucked up shit Walker has done before the scene, THIS is where the game goes off the deep end.

>>384920631
Nope no consequences. Just whether or not there are a bunch of dead innocents on the ground.

>>384920789
Ganged up on the brave American soldiers bombing and shooting the shit out of the other brave American soldiers who were defending them. You don't have to care about any of the choices, they don't really matter. Its kind of like Prey, the choices say more about how you feel about the situation rather than having any real value.

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>Spec Ops
>story's primary theme is the protagonist having a choice but making all the wrong decisions for personal reasons

>LoK
>story's primary theme is the protagonist having a choice but making all the wrong decisions for personal reasons

Now I want you to think about which one of these is an overhyped piece of shit, and which one is a universally acclaimed classic, and why this is so.

>>384920128
Always knew that Shakespeare was a hack

>>384921152
Legend of Korra?

>>384921338
Legacy of kain, I think.

>>384921152
Lunova Orbitalny Korably?

>>384917941
>you are powerless to change your destiny and yet your choices (which you dont make) are considered evil.
Sounds pretty deep desu fampai

>>384921338
Legacy of Kain.

The other anon is a retard for abbreviating

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The game's plot becomes way better if you just see it as the story of a soldier going crazy in a hellish situation instead of the forced criticism of vidya.

Everything this game tried doing was done 100x better by Metal Gear Solid 2

Just a generic shooter with a 5deep7u """""twist"""" on par with bioshock infinite

>>384921779
But that's what it is. I've never seen anything so harshly criticize it's own genre.

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>Everyone I know who played it and all the game critics at the time touted it as some sort of storytelling masterpiece

>I immediately realized what the white dots were but the game wouldn't allow me to proceed without killing civilians
>Then it tries to act like I'm some sort of monster
>Devs proceed to spit in my face and say that I "could've quit the game at any time".

I understand what they were trying to do and I appreciate the effort, but the CoD fanbase that they were trying to reach to didn't play the game and the only thing it achieved is making me waste my time on a pretentious, mediocre game with a story that isn't as clever as it thought it was.

>>384922003
The criticism would have hit closer to the mark if the game hadn't been the same boring piece of shit military shooter it's trying to criticise. It's not even a satire, it plays the boring cover shooter part completely straight.

>>384921779
That would be true if the game didn't start breaking the fourth wall and if you, the player, wouldn't have been told that the only right solution was to "stop playing".

How come no one ever mentions the amazing voice acting in this game?
That final scene with Conrad and Walker is amazing, i know Nolan North is like a meme at this point, but he's great at his job, atleast in this game.

>>384921152
Legacy of Kain had better writing, better presentation and better voice acting. Spec Ops had a bunch of retards thinking they're smart for pointing out how disconnected CoD games are from reality.

>>384921810
Why are you comparing it to MGS2? They're doing two entirely different things. MGS2 is about a players attachment to a character and the nature of sequels. Spec Ops is about A character going insane while the game asks questions about choice in games and sympathy with an unsympathetic protagonist. I guess you can say they're similar in the way they talk about the protagonist, but MGS2 is about idolizing someone. You could also say its about how nothing in the story is real, but MGS2 was confirmed real by the existence of MGS4. They have two entirely different messages.

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>>384922453
Close, but you forget that LoK never attempted (or failed miserably) to involve player agency as a factor in the storyline.

>>384916996
Alright game, maybe I'll replay it some time

Solid 6/10

I see you watched the Raycevik video OP.

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>>384916996

It's always so nice when a no-name studio produces something so worthy of discussion like Spec Ops. Whether you like it or not.

>>384922149
The game recognizes your apprehension against the phosphor bombing through Lugo's constant questioning of Walker's command. And don't think that the devs want you not to play their game. I wonder if the segment would have been better if they've hidden the civillians under a tent or something. But allowing the player to get the "I murdered a thousand people with my assault rifle, but made the right choice in that one cutscene" ending, like every other game, would have utterly broken the theme of the game.

>>384922168
I think the banal shooter gameplay where you easily mow down hundreds of people plays well into the cognitive dissonance theme.

>>384922349
Their attention to smaller details is fantastic. Whether it's the graffiti/artwork on the walls, the amount of color used despite being a MIDDLE EAST SHOOTINF EXPERIENCE, and being able to see Walker's commands, actions, confirmations become more brutal ocer time ("Tango down" to "Dropped one fucker!")

If Spec Ops was made by a wacky Japanese dev and panned by journalists, /v/ would have unanimously loved it and bent over backwards to ignore its flaws.

Sad, but true.

>shoot crowd of murderous terrorist muslims
>I'M the bad guy somehow
???

Some folks are born made to wave the flag

>>384923610
I think a boring shooter is a boring shooter, no matter what message you attach to it. And if you're going to criticise a genre within a work contained in the genre you're criticising, you should at least make it differentiate itself from the works it's meant to criticise. Otherwise the criticism falls flat.

I'm not saying they should have made the gameplay super good and polished (though it would have fucking helped!), but the least the could have done is make it different. Subvert the player's gameplay-related expectations. Do something out of the box. But no, instead we get the full generic course, complete with a turret section.

>>384924054
/v/ does love this game.

>>384923610
Too bad that a game that's boring to play on purpose is still boring to play.

>>384924054
Of course we would've loved it, it would've been fun if it was made by a wacky Nihon dev.

>>384917941
You're stupid and petty.

>>384921018
>>384921567
These are reasonable takes.

>>384920789
>brave american soldiers
I bet you think everybody who served is a hero, too. 99% of people I went to high school, college, or work with who were military are socially stunted or dudebros too dumb for anything else.

>>384923876
Yeah, they managed to make the Middle East setting interesting again, which is a feat of itself.
>>384922349
People seem to forget the other aspects of Spec Ops besides the story and gameplay. The game has stellar voice acting, beautiful setting and art direction, and a great soundtrack.

>>384923610
Look, dudenheim, it's no use if the game's still fucking boring.

Think of it like this. If you go to India, find a designated shitting street, take off your pants, squat and start shitting, but while you're shitting you start going off about how disgusting the whole thing is, and how Indians should feel bad about it, it doesn't accomplish anything. Nobody listens to you, the street's still getting shat up, and you're part of the problem.

That's Spec Ops. That's what it is, because in itself Spec Ops is a game that's exactly like the games it tries to criticise, down to a T. It's a shitty game, and as such is a part of the problem.

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>>384917941
This is what ruined the game for me. They really needed to give the player a real goodytwoshoes option the sodarksodeep choices any real gravitas. Time and time again the game forces your hand to progress and blames at you for it.

>>384925417
They were originally going to. Deadlines fucked them up. Twice. First they had to scrap the branching storyline (and presumably kept the "evil" branch for the final game), then the lead writer had to reshuffle the entire thing literal weeks before release due to his higher-ups meddling.

>>384924216
>>384924350
>>384925123
Yes, I realize that the gameply on its mediocre, but context is key. I feel Yager made the best out of their situation by contrasting the "yet another third person shooter", with the introspective (in a game design sense) plot. I didn't find the gameplay fun at all, but it enhanced the overall experience. Spec Ops isn't the game to turn to for fun, the game doesn't even remotely try to be so. I think you need to look at the game as a whole, how all the components work together, instead of individually comparing each component to other games.

>>384925638
This kills me. Video games need Directors Cut releases. There is so much that is left on the cutting room floor with games like this. The original Deus Ex too.

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>>384925907
>Spec Ops isn't the game to turn to for fun
Ironically, it is if you enjoy generic military shooters. Which is the kind of audience Spec Ops desperately tried to draw in order to belittle them, but ended up missing the mark by a mile. So in the end it's just another generic shooter with a preachy story that never even reached its intended public.

Now there are, of course, people who would and indeed to appreciate its story, but those people's experiences would have been way, way better overall if the game, sardonically, hadn't been a generic military shooter. It's a really tragic story when you get into the grit of it, and fairly unique within the industry at that.

Never finished this.
The gameplay just wasn't very good.

>>384919995
I didn't even consider shooting the air until I'd slaughtered everyone I could. The game does a real good job of making you want to just open fie and release all your pent up anger.

pro-tip: He was already dead and living the scenario over and over in hell.

>>384916996
That game was so shit its unbelievable. When they tried to blame me for doing that attack I was like "I didn't do anything, YOU did."

Then there was that loading screen and it said something like "you're still a good person" and I almost laughed my ass off. What are you comforting me for nigga? I didn't do shit.
I looked up who wrote it afterwards, and to no surprise it was a little twink faggot who barely got hairs on his balls. A twink faggot literally saying Anita Sarkeesian is his hero.

Who would've thought that a game written by such a fag sucks?

>>384916996
This is a good example of a game a woman will never understand.

>>384920128
Shakespeare is revered for his way with language, not because he wrote amazing and original stories.
You never read him of course, or if you did it was one play you were forced to read in high school and it was utterly wasted on you.

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>>384925638
Honestly, I never heard or read much about the development. Considering the actual play isn't that polished, it is hard to believe that the majority of the blame lies with the management and publisher.

>>384926637
I think his point was that anything can be made trivial through hyperbole, not to shit on Shakespeare.

>>384926893
I more or less followed the previews in magazines, and that's the gist of it. They were originally going to have a branching storyline. The stuff about them keeping the "evil path" is just my logical conjecture, considering what we got in the end. The stuff about the story having to be rewritten weeks before release is true, however, and documented in an interview with the lead writer.

As for gameplay, my educated guess is that they were just incompetent... which was perhaps why the game got hit with the deadline hammer twice during development.

>>384920128
yes, roemeo and juliet is trash. i look forward to when we stop shoving it down kids throats in middle school.

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>>384916996
>the death/load screen messages change as the game progresses
>after the one guy dies, a message will say this is all your fault
>another says you could have prevented this
>mfw

>Game starts
>"Hostile, back up!
>"Disable the target, quickly!"
>Game around halfway through
>"SHOOT THAT MOTHERFUCKER DOWN"
>"KILL THAT SON OF A BITCH!"

Well shit.

>>384923610
>I think the banal shooter gameplay where you easily mow down hundreds of people plays well into the cognitive dissonance theme.
At its core its a video game. If it fails at being entertaining, then it fails at being a video game. All it has left is its message, which most players despise because it has the audacity to criticize their decisions (just turn off the game bro xDD) despite being a piece of shit.

I think that's why Spec Ops has largely been forgotten whereas other similar games with incredibly grey moral choices like TLoU are still revered this day.

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>>384927854
>Game starts
>"Tango 10 o' clock!"
>team AI engages the enemy
>Game around halfway through
>"KILL THAT SON OF A BITCH!"
>team AI still knows perfectly well which enemy of the bunch Walker is screaming his retard ass off about

Just gonna post one of the best songs this game has
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jNJYWwAZZ8&list=WL&index=102

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>>384919995
>start reading a novel
>the protagonist does bad things in the story
>finish reading and look in the author bio
>"WOOOOOOW DUDE YOU'RE SUCH A BAD PERSON YOU'RE RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL THE BAD THINGS THAT HAPPENED IN THIS BOOK NO ONE ELSE BUT YOU YOU YOU MADE ALL THESE THINGS HAPPEN THE CORRECT CHOICE WAS TO STOP READING LOL LIKE DUDE JUST STOP TURNING THE PAGE LMAO BETCHA FEEL LIKE A BAD PERSON NOW HUH XD I FUCKING HATE LITERATURE AND READERS ARE DUMB ROFL"

>forced to use white phosphorus
>HOW DARE YOU USE IT
I don't get why this game was so praised

>>384928334
Literally no one said these things about the game.

The game is not about you, you narcissistic faggot. It's about walker.

>>384928334
You could have just stopped reading, dude. Or turned back the pages or something. No need to get mad.

>>384925417
I honestly don't see why. People take the whole "game is telling me I'm a bad person" too seriously. The parts the game says "you bad" are directed at Walker, not the player. The parts that could be seen as negative towards the player aren't "oh no, you turned 1's and 0's into nothing, you're a bad person", it's making you consider why you are even playing the game. Do you play games to feel like a hero? Just for entertainment?
The loading screens are people straightforward with these. Walker decides to use the WP, not the player. The only difference is that the player is the one to pull the trigger.

>>384928567
The player having to do something to progress the game is a lot different than the character choosing to do something.

White phosphorous was walkers choice, not yours. Don't take everything so personally.

>>384928334

Ever wonder why you're a friendless faggot and no one likes talking to you in real life?

I've got a few ideas for you.

>>384916996
You're supposed to type it in all caps, newfag.

>>384920128
>>384926637
>some cunt refuses to go out with a fucking Chad
>chad and cunt's mother is insistent that she goes out with him so they have the king or some shit force them to
>cunt leaves into the woods with another guy instead
>chad and cock thirsty stacy chase after them
>plant people fuck their shit up and they start bickering

wow what did he mean by this???

>>384917941
I'd like you to stop for a minute and think about the fact that you are so unable to take responsibility for your actions that even when it literally doesn't fucking matter because it's a fucking video game you still can't do it. Don't have children, you'd fuck them up anyway.

>>384920631
Gameplay wise, no. Story wise, no. You destroyed the water supply. Dubai is going to be a mass graveyard soon. Well, more than it already was.

>>384919952
the average player these days can't separate themselves from the character they're playing, so probably not. that's why newfags need characters that are "xd relatable" and that they can see themselves as, rather than play something outside their comfort zone

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>>384921338
Reminder that Aang was a worse Avatar than Korra

>>384916996
>>384917941
Do you realize people may go through this moral dilemma on a daily basis if you're in the military?
I'm no military-fag, and in fact I think they US would save face if we kept our grubby mitts out of people's business, but half the reason I would never join military is because you're obligated to follow orders, no matter how heinous they are.

Wanna get court-marshaled? Join the military thinking you can make your own damn decisions.

>>384929238
So why exactly does the game address the player directly in out-of-story segments such as loading screens?

>>384924285
If that's true why is every thread filled with contrarians bragging about how they disagree with game journalists and criticizing the game solely based on things the dev said on twitter?

Meanwhile Suda51, SWERY, and Yoko Taro get a free pass when they make games that put more emphasis on telling a story than entertaining the player. The hypocrisy of it all makes my blood boil.

this game is trash. the base game itself is boring and extremely bland, and the story is something that's been done 100x better in film. Why does /v/ praise this garbage?

>>384926637
his way with languages was targeted at the literal gutter trash at the time, so that they could understand it. as far as the verse structure, it isn't anything revolutionary

>>384927348
Why? "Your dumbshit teenage romance is not that important don't ruin your lives over it morons" is a valuable lesson to teenagers.

NOWHERE TO RUN TO BABY

>>384929402
i dont fucking know i never played this game in particular, if they did that's retarded

>>384917941
they wanted to but it wasn't in the budget

>>384926326
I was part of that audience back then. Sadly the game's marketing was lackluster and even a bit self-conflcting with some of the ads portraying it as the HoD themed game it is, while others portrayed it as "shoot the brown people". Perhaps military shooter fatigue already had set in before the game was released. And the three or four year wait from its announcement, and the year long delay didn't help either. I don't think the gameplay is so terrible that it warrants it being shit on to this degree. It's passable. The game was made by a no-name company with no experience making these shooters. With this in mind I can accept the gameplay, and the game has plenty of other strengths to warrant praise.

>preachy and belittling
Whatever you say. I found the game to be enlightening.

>>384927998
Video games don't necessarily have to be entertaining. See any horror game. Engaging is a better word to describe those games. And Spec Ops is engaging as hell.

>audacity to criticize their decisions, turn off the game to get the "good ending"
Can you not handle criticism? Can you not handle ONE game out of thousands to reject you the hero fantasy?

>>384921152
To be fair, LoK's story went to shit after SR1.

>>384929307
Still makes me said Nick had to out-source everything after Season 1.

>>384917941
This.

I remember in an interview with the writer someone brought up how the lack of player choice robs the phosporus scene of impact. He said something like, "you had a choice. You could have turned the game off instead of progressing the story."

What a load of shit. In that case, why make it an interactive game at all? Just make a movie and call it apocalypse now.

>>384929428
/v/ primarily spergs out because nobody can acknowledge that yes, not playing the game is a valid choice if you're not comfortable with it and the choice to continue regardless does say something (very little, but something) about you. It's not as bad as it used to be but it's still mostly people who hate the game.

>>384926637
Both. Shakespeare is revered as a wordsmith, but even in his time he was a respected dramatist, and much has been written since then on the psychological depth of his best works/characters.

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>>384928906
>Don't take everything so personally.
But the devs have actually gone on record saying its your fault going so far as to tell you to just turn off the game you paid $60 for.

>>384929402
The loading screens are exactly what separates Walker from the player. The idea that a character has to be relatable, that Walker IS the player, is fucking retarded and the game wants you to make that separation. The loading screens give messages either about Walker or about separating Walker from the player. The game wants you to know YOU ARE NOT WALKER. It wants to show how detached Walker has become from humanity, where even the person controlling him doesn't see him as someone worth saving anymore.

>>384929772
The game is a fucking narrative.
Once the meta hits the fan, NOBODY is going to want to pick the evil option. The game's impact means fucking nothing.
You're probably the same person that thinks the good and evil options in Bioshock are fucking groundbreaking.

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>Get sent into sandy shithole to try and find American soldiers.
>Find American soldiers rounding up civilians.
>Get into a firefight.
>Character immediately assumes the soldiers are rogue and rampages down a building shooting every soldier in the way.

>dude the americans were actually helping the civvies
>I bet you feel silly now
>so dumb lol

Only the American military could be that inept.

>>384929610
The marketing was part of the twist. It wanted people to walk into the game thinking it was generic "shoot the foreigners, USA USA NUMBER 1", so that when the game shows its true colors, it gets a bigger reaction.
Whether it worked or not is debatable, but that was their intention.

>>384929610
>See any horror game
Hm? Horror games are plenty entertaining though. Just because you don't find it fun doesn't mean it wasn't.

>And Spec Ops is engaging as hell.
Well evidently the majority disagrees since the game was critically panned for being a mindless corridor cover shooter.

>Can you not handle criticism?
I can handle it fine. I did finish the game after all. I'm just saying when you aren't fun, have no other redeeming qualities, and yet still try to shit all over the player it doesn't turn out well. Which explains why games like TLoU have become ingrained in history whereas Spec Ops has been forgotten.

>>384929610
>I was part of that audience back then.
And you still are, demonstrably.

now what they should have done is do a series of goody two shoes choices that would fuck you over and get shit harder and worse, losing squadmates, for instance, and a choices that's brutal but works better.

Now THAT is good moral choicing.

>>384929513
it is, but dumb ass teens take it as genuinely romantic. they miss the satire. im glad plays, at least in my school, were read out loud as a class. at least i know everyone read it. if it was a take home assignment i know they wouldnt have even opened it. i still amazed they can miss the themes that much.
im also just mad that my school saved hamlet for last. i fucking loved that thing to the point i watched the kenneth branaugh movie at least 3 times for my project on it. bullshit that i had to wait till senior year for that. i would have appreciated every other shakespeare thing,
from plays to sonnets, way more if we opened with hamlet in junior high. nope, romeo and juliet. followed by merchant of venice next year.
i didnt really care for othello, but macbeth got my interest, then hamlet showed up and blew me away.

>>384930297
>the game was critically panned for being a mindless corridor cover shooter.

Oh good, glad I wasn't the only one that thought that. The entire game felt like a bootleg Gears of War.

>>384920128
Shakespeare is shit though.

There's a reason you retards keep making threads about this game half a decade later.

>>384930112
The 33rd think Delta is the CIA.
The CIA thinks Delta is the 33rd.
The very first enemies you encounter think Delta is the 33rd, trying to get them back to the nest.
And Delta thinks both the CIA & 33rd have gone rogue.

>Remake Heart of Darkness
>"WOW VIDYA IS ART"

>>384930297
>Just because you don't find it fun doesn't mean it wasn't.
I think the point the anon was making is separating fun from engaging.
Fun has positive connotations. A birthday party, a smiley face, etc.
Engaging is something that draws you in, whether its fun or not.
I love Spec Ops the Line, but fun would be the last word I'd use to describe it. It's engaging though. Fucking engaging.

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>>384929758
Only half of S2 was outsourced

>>384930591
>Remake Heart of Darkness
>"WOW MOVIES IS ART"

>>384930437
>do R&J in grade 10, teacher spends the whole time talking about love and has the class analyze the Taylor Swift song
>transfer schools, do it again in grade 12, this time the teacher actually understands the story and explains it is a story about impulsiveness having consequences
>then he pointed out every cuck joke shakespere made
Your mileage varies entirely depending on the teacher

>>384930112
there mission was to recon not shoot anything EVER

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>>384928814
The game constantly presents with the player with the illusion of agency, rips it away at the last second, and proceeds to berate them for it. As the player is responsible for controlling Walker's actions, the player is also responsible for the consequences, but then the game rips the control out of the players hands essentially grabbing the player by the wrists and slapping them with their own hands. Taking potshots at the player in the loading screens is just icing on the shitcake considering they are based on existential choices the game doesn't actually present.

>>384930751
That is an accurate depiction of an Impact Hammer duel in UT.

>>384922149
>Devs proceed to spit on my face
Did they actually spit on your face or are you taking this way too personally?

>>384919952
If they wanted it to be solely about the protagonist they could have done white phosphorous as a cutscene. Instead they create a situation where the only way to progress is to make the choice yourself. They wanted to implicate the player, not just the protag.

>>384930736
>I think the point the anon was making is separating fun from engaging.
Then Spec Ops fails at that too, as it failed to connect with people and instead just make them mad. People don't give a shit about Walker, they just get mad about the game's pinpointing of blame.

Contrast with TLoU, which still sees discussion on /v/ years later about the consequences of Joel's choice. Now that was an engaging game.

>>384929307
Too bad Korra's show was garbage

The fact that people get so pissed off about being "forced" to do bad things is just objective proof that the devs were on point on the criticism about people playing games like this because they want to feel like a hero even though they aren't.

>>384930919
Were you molested by a hyperbole as a child?

>>384930919
Well they told me to turn off the game I paid good money for, so that's metaphorically spitting on my face I'd think.

Now if you let me refund your game then I wouldn't mind :)

>>384930872
>analyze the Taylor Swift song
>in a dedicated education facility
no anger reaction image exists that suits my rage.

>>384930067
What are you on about? Everyone thinks the "morality" system in bioshock is shit because it basically just presents you with the good option and the evil option. Also your choice is barely factored into the arc of the story.

Are you projecting? Do you usually pay attention to the "meta" of singleplayer games? What happened to playing something without asking the internet what to do?

It is possible to present moral choices to a player subtley but genuinely i.e. They can do more than one thing to advance the story and no option is clearly good or evil. Spec ops opted to give you no real choice, which is why i compare it to a movie. Not to mention, it's a standard third person shooter with nothing really interesting going on gameplay wise.

>>384931178
>feel like a hero
I think it's more about the player not having any agency, and yet being nonsensically blamed for the protagonist's actions.

If I wanted to be a hero, I'd play CoD. Oh wait, CoD did the same exact thing that Spec Ops attended to do with No Russian, years earlier. And it did it better.

>>384931069
Because people bought too much into the idea that the game is against the player, not realizing that the game is against Walker.
We can argue whether the fourth wall breaking was necessary, if it added or not to the story, but seeing people incapable of separating Walker making a decision from the player making a decision is fucking retarded. Walker wanted to use the WP, what do people want? For Walker to just say, "nah, lets leave". Why? So that the player could feel like a hero?

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>>384931142
>implying

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Those loading screens tho
>There is no difference between what is right and what is necessary.
>Can you even remember why you came here?
>Cognitive dissonance is an uncomfortable feeling caused by holding two conflicting ideas simultaneously.
>You cannot understand, nor do you want to.
>The US military does not condone the killing of unarmed combatants. But this isn't real, so why should you care?
>Walker's obsession with Konrad has brought nothing but destruction—to Dubai and his squad.
>If Lugo were still alive, he would likely suffer from PTSD. So, really, he's the lucky one.
>I exist and I find it nauseating.
>Squad commands are unavailable when you're alone. No one can help you now.

>Collateral damage can be justified, if the gain outweighs the cost How much do you think Adams and Lugo are worth?

>>384929772
>don't play the game
>win
epic

>>384931407
Did her head blew up? Brutal

>>384931478
>>Can you even remember why you came here?
I literally live here, game. This is my home.

>>384930885
See
>>384929996
Walker is fucking delusional. Walker is not the player. Walker is just a sad, broken man incapable of digging himself out of the hole he made.
The only real decision the player has is Walker's fate. That's the one and only time the player is fully in control of Walker.

>>384930885
So much this. I wouldn't really mind if the game calls me an asshole as long as I made the decisions myself. Like during the white phosphorous incident, I actually tried to play it the safe way and snipe everything, but then the game threw a bunch of OHKO snipers that are endlessly respawning just to fuck me over. When I actually use the bomb it actually goes
>HOW COULD YOU YOU MONSTER
When the reality was that I didn't have any narrative agency at all. Why even present the illusion if you're going to be an asshole about it?

I like how Obsidian handles it much better in Alpha Protocol where you actually have multiple ways to complete an objective and you get criticized for each accordingly. Like how you have to choose between saving your love interest or innocent civilians, but each choice has their downsides. BUT the main difference is that you get to choose what you do, not like in Spec Ops where you think you do but there was only ever one path. It's basically a sucker punch to the face.

>>384917941
>tfw too intelligent for intelligent

>>384931230
They never expected you to pay for a game and not play it. It is you that expected a good ending, and bitch because you didn't get it.

>>384931274
How else are they supposed to reach dees keeds?

>>384929307
>worse avatar than the one who destroyed the avatar cycle and got all past incarnations deleted.
yeah sure.

>>384931387
>Because people bought too much into the idea that the game is against the player,
People have been saying all thread that the loading screens basically break the fourth wall to shit all over you. Then there are the devs who directly blame the player for not "turning off the game".

I mean until you can refute those points, I dont see why you keep taking us in circles.

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>>384931578
>tfw prisoner gets her arms lopped off so she can't bend

>>384929772
>book gets to part i dont like
>close book, now it doesnt happen

>>384931478
They're worth pennies considering I'm the one carrying the team.

>>384931680
i dont know. im sure your example was maybe only a 10 minute thing in class one day, but i forgot how many hoops education has to jump through to reach someone who isnt interested in learning. your post was a reminder of that and it rustled my jimmies.

>>384916996
Fuck off Reycavick. Video games are not the artsy medium you are searching for.

>>384916996
Last of Us did it better

>>384931734
>The US military does not condone the killing of unarmed combatants. But this isn't real, so why should you care?

>>384931678
>They never expected you to pay for a game and not play it
I disagree. They knew what they were doing.
Listen, I get that you want to shill your favourite game, but it'll always be disliked due to how it insults the player.

>>384931274
She did a song about Romeo and Juliet? I'm human filth but Romeo and Juliet is about some horny kids trying to get their bits mashed together and then deciding in their youthful ignorance and excitement that thw best solution to this is to damn their families and then damn themselves. Also everyone drinks poison. Basically everyone. But don't take that so badly, I had a teacher who tried to teach us that our local literature is great, brought in the author who then proceeded to talk about how utterly fucking hopeless he felt about his life and his works being taken as utterly meaningless.

Oh, Spec Ops is kinda fun. The gameplay's not amazing but the executions are neat, the sand tech's pretty cool at times and I remember it being fucking hell to beat on the hardest difficulty due to World at War syndrome. Also the game does have a pretty cool location and aesthetic.

>>384931981
>Do you feel like a hero yet?

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>>384931478

>>384931365
The player always has agency. Just because you don't like the choices available to you doesn't mean they don't exist. Also, how many people do you honestly believe made a real effort to avoid using the white phosphorous? We've got people in this very thread who didn't realize you could shoot in the air to disperse the crowd after the lynching, how many people do you think have bitched about how they were "forced" to shoot the crowd as well? If you don't make enough of an effort to explore your choices to know that there aren't other options then it's irrelevant if there were or not, you would have made the same choice regardless of whether there was another option.

>>384931734
>Devs say to turn off the game
That's retarded, I'll admit. But a few things, first Death of the Author. Just because they intend for it to be perceived one way, doesn't mean why can't interpret another way. Second, that's more a way of saying "Walker doesn't have a good ending. Not now, not ever will he be a hero. The player will never feel like a hero while playing Walker. So if that's your intention, just stop playing"
>Loading screens
They are either about Walker or to separate you from Walker. Show me one case of the loading screen saying a negative thing and how you interpret that as against the player in some spiteful way.
>This is all your fault
At Walker
>The US military does not condone the killing of unarmed combatents. But this isn't real, so why should you care?
Separating you from Walker.

>>384931609
This anon gets it.

I did the same exact thing. I realized that the game wanted me to use the phosphorus, so I tried sniping and ran into the invincible snipers. And then I entered the menu to use the bombs, saw that there were civilians, then realized I couldn't back out of the menu until I bombed the civilians. Felt nothing when the game tried to make me feel bad.

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>>384931726
Aang
>Got the entire Air Nomads killed
>Didn't stop Amon from coming to power
>Abandoned duty as Avatar for some pussy
>Ruined the Sand Library by disobeying the spirit
>Notoriously bad father
Korra
>Restored bending lost thanks to Aang
>Restored the Air Nomads
>Restored the bond between the spirit world
>Defeated literal Earth Hitler from rising to power

>>384931354
The meta takes into account people simply talking about it to one or another. Quite literally, anyone who would hear that there's a good and bad decision will always pick the good decision unless they're Hitler.

The only good point your bring up is the fact Bioshock was pretty blatant about their decision making. But even to that standpoint, what if a person going in blind made a good decision--what would be the point of the game?

>I'm a good person!
>You're a good person!
>Great, nothing learned!

It's funny how people keep blaming the developers for forcing them to do bad things. That's exactly how Walker acts during the game, shifting the blame to Konrad.
Maybe I'm just overanalyzing the whole thing but I feel the developers knew the players would act like this.

>>384931609
>not like in Spec Ops where you think you do but there was only ever one path. It's basically a sucker punch to the face.
Gosh, that kind of sounds like what it might have felt like for Walker! It's funny how that might help one to empathize with the player character!

One of the things I do find funny is how Walker blames Konrad for everything and the player blames the game for everything.

>>384931984
They knew perfectly well that nobody would stop playing the game to avoid the phosphor bombing, and I'm sure nobody ever did. I think it's perfectly okay to experience the hero fantasy once in a while. But here comes a game that rejects it, and everybody is apparently rustled to the bone that the player couldn't save Walker or Dubai.

>>384931734
>Then there are the devs who directly blame the player for not "turning off the game".
Literally nothing wrong with this. Refute them.

>>384932175
>The player always has agency.
For the record, "you can stop playing" doesn't count as agency in this context. We're talking about agency within the game's story/game world/whatever you want to call it. Not the player's agency as a user of the medium. Agency vs meta-agency, if you will.

For instance, having a dialogue option that changes later events is player agency in the sense that the player's actions alter the in-game world - insofar as the programmers have accommodated for it. Making the game glitch out (i.e. causing it to act in unpredicted and unaccounted-for ways) or quitting it altogether would be meta-agency in contrast. Basically, think of player agency as "player freedom in affecting the in-game world within the programmed constraints."

DUDE JUST TURN THE GAME OFF LMAO

>>384932615
Agency is agency, just because you wanted to have greater agency within the game world as well doesn't mean they are required to provide it. If they are blaming the player then it's not relevant if the player has agency within the game, it's only relevant that they have agency in general, and you do. It is a very simple choice, you can continue to play the game even after it makes you uncomfortable, or you can stop playing it, it is completely reasonable to judge you for the decision you make there.

>>384932573
>Refute them.
I wasn't the one who created those horrible events. It was they who did, and as such it is they who shoulder the blame. They are the bad people, and, quite ironically, they are also the ones who fancy themselves artistic heroes.

>>384932968
It is a video game, anon. Nobody in this thread is a bad person because of what they did in Spec Ops.

>>384932968
>I'm not the one to blame
>Konrad is!

I'll never understand how people don't get that it's a videogame adaptation of Heart of Darkness.

It's not about you, it's about the character. It's also a legitimately decent adaptation of Heart of Darkness, even if it is a vidya version.

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>>384929610
You do realize horror is a form of entertainment, right? Fucking retard. What you're trying and failing to say is that stories in video games (and books and movies and art as a whole) don't have to make you feel GOOD. They can make you feel sad. They can make you feel guilty. They can make you feel angry. They can make you feel afraid. They can make you feel unsatisfied. They can even make you feel bored. They can make you feel as many negative, shitty, undesirable emotions as they want, as strongly as they want. But guess what? They ultimately still have to be ENTERTAINING to experience, not in spite of these negative emotions, but through them, or else they fail at the most fundamental level.

And if you think, if you really, honestly fucking think that an effective way to criticize violence or cliches or anything you might happen to dislike or disagree with in a medium is to not subvert them and deliver an experience devoid of these things that you feel worsen the quality of the product, but to deliver an experience that's so absolutely filled out the ass with them to the point that it makes your product literally fucking identical to the ones you're ostensibly trying to criticize--no matter how much of a smug, condescending, insufferable prick you are about it--if you really think that accomplishes anything other than pretension and a hilariously unwarranted image of moral or artistic superiority, then I just don't know what to say to you.

>>384932332
>>Restored bending lost thanks to Aang
happy accident
>>Restored the Air Nomads
same happy accident
>>Restored the bond between the spirit world
after being coerced and manipulated by a power hungry tyrant
>>Defeated literal Earth Hitler from rising to power
genuine achievement.

>>384932968
That's not refuting them that's just passing the blame because you are such a pathetic son of a bitch you can't even accept your own small part in this. This ridiculous inability to accept responsibility for your actions even when the impact of your actions is so incredibly tiny reflects far more negatively on your character than just playing the game through did.

>>384920789
Avenged Lugo, no mercy

>>384917941
woah...
it's almost... as if the games... have budgets...
Ughh.. it's almost as if the game's narrative/purpose/whatever... is not valid anymore because some scenes are actually scripted...
UGH... It's almost as if it doesn't matter, because Walker died in the prologue before the game and this is his personal hell where he has to suffer...
UGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH MY BRAAAAAIIIINNNNNNNNNN

>>384932917
Again, you're confusing intended agency and agency inherent to the medium, but not part of the work's content. I can burn a book, because it is made of paper, but this won't affect the story contained therein (beyond this particular container now being useless). I can turn off a game because it is a piece of software, but it won't alter the fictional world it presents (beyond, again, rendering this specific projection of it non-usable to the player, i.e. me). I could break the disc, spit on the screen while playing, I could use a trainer and give myself infinite health points, but none of this will alter the presented story in any way, shape or form.

Contrast this with agency intended and accounted for by the artist, such as CYOA books, games with actual choices, or interactive films, and you receive works which do vary in the final storyline and effects presented to each reader, viewer or player, mostly being an effect of their (joint with developers) decisions. This is the kind of agency we mean when we speak of player agency in video games.

>>384933360
>>384933169
Joke's on you, I neither bought nor played the game. I watched it on YouTube. I did pirate a copy, but never installed it, so I'm entirely, completely blameless. As opposed to those monsters, the devs.

>>384933429
I'm not confusing shit, you're just insisting on a particular definition of the word because you'd rather bitch about semantics than have an actual discussion.

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>>384933559

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>>384933429
This.

If you want to railroad the protagonist into shitsville, you don't use vidyagaems or any other highly interactive medium as your delivery vehicle of choice.

>>384933591
Even assuming your proposal, the agency you speak of (deciding whether to play on or stop playing) is still irrelevant, as it's unrelated to the work in question, just to your own person. It's removed completely from the work itself.

I think it's not the problem with the game itself but with what developers say and think they did. Game wasn't a masterpiece but it was interesting.

>>384933726
>lost developers a sale
>good person
Choose one.

>>384933425
faggot

Story aside, can we all at least agree that the ost was fantastic, the details they put in were great and so was the art direction?

>>384924820
>The game has stellar voice acting, beautiful setting and art direction, and a great soundtrack.

Fucking this

I hate how people just say "it's generic" when the art and post rock soundtrack are fucking great in a lot of parts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0mC__bGcmM

>>384934080
The anon wasn't going to buy it. There was never going to be a sale from him.

I find the reaction to the game here fascinating. I genuinely don't understand why you're all so fucking caught up in the idea that it's "your" story when it's very clearly Walker's.

>>384934290
If he hadn't watched the game on YT he would not have found out it sucks, and may have blindly bought it due to word of mouth. It's a lost sale.

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>>384916996
>how did you survived all of that?
Who said i did?

>>384934442
He would've pirated anyway, according to his own words.

>>384934474
Nah, I feel like a badass tho.

>"Why aren't there any games with interesting stories"
>A dev tries it
>"0/10 fucking shit"

Gee I wonder

>>384934336
Because both the game and the devs claim player agency is a factor in the game's events. The game addresses the player directly through fourth-wall-breaking loading screens and recognisable tropes, and the devs outright say turning the game off (which is a player's action, not Walker's) is a valid alternate ending to the game's story.

>>384917941
Didn't the developers said (and even the games hinted it) that if you would just stop playing the game, none of this would've happened..

This is really lame (Essentially, its like saying, if you wanted the good ending for Requiem for a Dream, you should've stopped at the 10 minute mark)

I Agree with >>384921018 You wanted to be a hero. You wanted to save the civilians, You failed. You wanted to save the Water. You destroyed it. You wanted to kill the bad guy. There wasn't any badguy. It was only you, wanting to be a hero, causing Dubai to die.

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>>384934587
>"Why aren't there any games with interesting stories"
>A dev tries it
>"10/10 best storytelling and voice acting in video games ever, even 18 years later"
Maybe they should have tried harder.

>>384934618
Do you want a good ending? To feel like a hero? Turn it off. Walker will never undue what he did.
Also
>>384929996

>>384934618
>One loading screen tip intended as a joke is representative of the entire game's story
>As is the offhand comment of a dev

No, you're fucking autistic. He's not wrong anyway, turning the game off is a valid alternate ending, in the same way it is for every game.

The whole point of the fucking game is thatthe player is brought along with Walker's story so that by the end they understand where his intentions were. What do you think would happen if there was the happy ending option? Nobody would fucking play the bad end, because the vast majority of people don't play as a bad character in a game.

>>384934872
>>384934918
Read the comment chain.

>>384934587
>"Why is every character a lame boring AFGNCAAP?"
>Spec Ops tries different
>"Hurr I can't relate"
Fuck I hate these people

>>384934657
>You wanted to be a hero. You wanted to save the civilians
No I didn't. I wanted to play a fun game people were hyping up for moral decisions and got an extremely bland, mediocre TPS that was shoving its agenda down my throat for the sake of trying to seem deeper than the puddle it was.

>>384934996
For what? Even more autism about "WALKER ISN'T ME WHY ISN'T THE GAME LETTING ME DO EVERYTHING I WANT"?

I swear this fucking game brings out all the pseudointellectuals who can't appreciate something thanks to their own autistic beliefs of what a story should be.

>>384935015
Pretty much my stance on it. Is it perfect? No. At least it's fucking trying though.

>>384935191
Guy asked why people keep assuming they (the players) are involved in the game's story despite it being mostly about Walker. The answer is that both the game and the devs have communicated that player agency is an intended factor in the game's events. This is why people feel involved and responsible for deeds which ultimately rest mostly on Walker's own conscience.

Cut the knee-jerking and actually read what you're replying to next time.

>>384917941
>t. to retarded too understand a deconstruction.

Self-inserts ruined everything

>>384934918
>turning the game off is a valid alternate ending
So throwing yourself off a cliff is a valid alternative to living if you're going to pullout the existential bullshit.

Turning off the game is not a valid option, especially in a medium that is designed and intended to be played.

>>384935363
>Two minor comments mean the story is ruined

You're fucking autistic if this is what ruins the story for you. Especially since it seems to bother you so much you have written off an entire game thanks to your not agreeing with what it's trying to say.

>>384935583
See: >>384935363

>>384935191
I've noticed a handful of games do that. It's as if just the name or image attracts every shitposter around, whether they've even played the game or not.

>>384935664
I'm seeing it and all I see is autism about not being able to self insert properly.

>>384935471
>using deconstruction when that term has far since lost its meaning

>>384935086
>that one thread about this game where everyone was saying how shit the gameplay was
>that one dude who kept saying "IT WAS SHIT ON PURPOSE GUYS. IT WAS SUPPOSE TO BE BAD TO MIRROR THE OTHER GENERIC WAR SHOOTERS. I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU'RE TOO DUMB TO GET IT WAS SHIT ON PURPOSE."

>>384917941
Nigger you KNEW that it was a bad option.
If you had bought the game launch, knowing nothing about it, you would have fired the burn stuff too.
Its mimicing a moderns shotter for a reason.

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>>384935784
I just answered a question someone asked. I didn't even express my opinion on the subject matter. Cut me a fucking break.

>>384935740
I don't get it. I'm not even kidding when I say that I think this is an autistic response. It shows all the signs of not being able to engage emotionally with a story thanks to minor inconsistencies.

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>tfw chose to kill everyone in path until I was shot down myself

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>>384935928
>moderns shotter

>>384935961
You didn't though. You are equating a loading screen tip and an offhand comment in an interview to an entire fucking story beat. Is it mentioned in the story? No. So I don't fucking care and neither should you.

>>384921018
This, the thread should have ended here.

>>384936080
No, I merely said that it was those things (loading screens and remarks made by devs) that usually cause players to assume their part in the game's story. Is it true? Are the players to blame or not? Was Walker my self-insert or not? I don't know and frankly I don't care. I was just answering a question.

>>384930996
That's because more casual players that don't fucking reload the scenario immediately or spend an hour trying to break the game would have just launched the fucking phosphorus and then it makes for an amusing illusion where it really does seem like it might be your fault

holy shit it's like you have literally no capacity for critical thought

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>>384924054
It's called Metal Gear.

You enjoy all the killing, that's why.

>>384936130
Actually, if the game's story is all Walker's, what sense does it make for the game to mock you about the hero fantasy being childish?

>>384916996
>pretty good characters
>good voice acting
>okay story
>good endings
>good atmopshere, really makes you feel like you're in a hellhole
>good music
Other than the offensively mediocre gameplay and retarded message about Foopuses, game was pretty good. I really enjoyed it personally because I never touched a modern military shooter and it was a new experience for me

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>>384934918
>turning the game off is a valid alternate ending

>>384936504
You weren't supposed to enjoy it, you dip. Way to miss the message.

I wish we could talk about this without autism.

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This is how the game went for me on my first play through:

As soon as I got shot at I tried to go back because I knew all I was supposed to do was find people. The game wouldn't let me so I pressed onward.

When the white phosphorus thing came up I knew the people at the end were civilians, well, because who didn't so I tried to not target them. The game made me kill them to proceed.

If there had been ways to avoid those two things I would have avoided them but the game didn't' let me so I thought it was kind of lame to get scolded for doing something I wouldn't have done, had I the option.

Also, I just held my fire when the civilians surround you and since I waited long enough they just ran away.

>>384935976
A few days ago we had a more controlled Spec Ops the Line thread which was fantastic. There were still these arguments but they were presented without bait or shitposting. Same happens with stuff like Bioshock Infinite. Try to say a single positive thing about it and it's like ringing a bell for all the shitposters to gather.

>>384933361
So,I was the perfect 'type' to play this game. For starters, all I knew going in was it was a shooter with some occasional choices. Of course I tried to be an absolute moralfag, because I thought it would be as easy as Fallout 3.
Naturally, I believed Konrad was a good guy as well.
Then this happens and I'm torn as fuck. Pretty pissed. But I'm still trying to be a goody good. I didn't fire on the mob,then later I regretted it.
All that, and I already had fucked up the 'Obey' scene with the Civilian,the Soldier and the snipers.
What a mess. I'd kill them all now, though. The real good option.

>>384928334
literally the ending of battle royale and dangan ronpa V3

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>Everyone in this topic seeing things that aren't there

>>384936850
Do you feel like a hero yet? You could have turned the game off, you know.

>People got all up in arms about MoH portraying the Afghan war

>No one got butthurt that this game literally had you killing American soldiers

???

>>384936296
>Are the players to blame or not?
No. The loading screens are both about Walker as they are directed at the player. Problem is people seem incapable of distinguishing between one or the other.
>Was Walker my self-insert or not?
No. Walker is his own character. He makes his own decisions. The only time the player has genuine control over Walker is at the very end, to decide which fate Walker deserves.

>>384936975
Got to legitimize that major in English literature anyway you can m8.

>>384936975
In this case it's more like:
>The Player: This game doesn't let me do anything outside of the single specific things that progress the story.
>The Dev: The Player could have turned the game off. The Player is to blame for the game's events. It was their choice.

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>>384937117
Which part of "I don't care, I was just answering a question" did you not understand? Also, I inserted hard into Walker as this is the way I play my games (no homo, I just tend to empathise strongly with people in hard circumstances), so you can fuck off, I guess.

>>384937117
>The loading screens are both about Walker as they are directed at the player.
Why direct them at me if I had no choice in the matter? It feels like them trying to forcefully drive home the message to the point of retardation.

>Walker is his own character. He makes his own decisions.
This is fine, but then why put forced bullshit in the loading screens like "HURRD DO YOU FEEL LIKE A HERO?" Just makes it feel like the people making the game were trying to force you to feel bad rather than doing it through the story itself.

>>384936989

Eh, I saw the traps and I could tell what the game was doing so the effect was really lackluster.

I have one thing to ask to the anons defending the game

I've played as a tyrant in Black & White, a mass murderer in GTA:SA, a completely neutral and self-serving merchant in Patrician, a survivor who only wanted to GTFO in Risk of Rain, and so on.
I am okay with not being the hero of the story, i am okay with not really making a difference in the game-world at large.
I can enjoy a game wether it presents a hero fantasy or not.
And i am sure you and many of the anons you are arguing with can also say the same. But i am speaking only for myself now.

Let's say i dropped the Ph bomb as a first option, even while i knew what was at stake. That i agreed and accepted with whatever criticism the game had for me (as a player) or Walker. But also that i agreed with the criticisms that the other posters gave this game on this thread because, even if what the game said applied to me because i was a violent asshole, it shouldn't apply to the people who are forced into the choice.
What then?

TL;DR: I dropped the bomb without hesitation and i still think this is bull. wat do?

Sorry, if this came up too bloggy, but some of you were so intent on the "These people have a problem with the game because they wanted to be the hero" angle, that i felt it to be necesary

>>384932471
It might have been another poster, but wasn't it said that Walker WANTED to drop the bomb, and therefore he wouldn't be feeling like you describe?


As for the anons who said they shot at the people instead of making them disperse by non-lethal means. That is just players acting according to how the game and their experience has taught them to play.
Expecting that kind of interactions with the AI is kind of silly, unless the game teaches you in some way that it was possible and that it would have worked in this case

>>384936850
>I got spoiled on the game and purposefully attempted to subvert it

>What do you mean i can't just take the other pong paddle out for a beer?

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>>384936850
>i'm like teh best gamer and just fyi i made all teh right decisions teh first time just like how im so good in COD but instead of telling me i'm teh best like all my other games teh game tried to make me feel bad like my parents and i didn't like it

>>384936975
>what's critical analysis lol fuck depth in literature XD

books aren't games and you can't just take a book and turn it into a medium where the consumer inserts into a perspective without changing anything else
it's severely missing the point of the video game medium and then blaming the players for the writer's mistake

>>384937418
You're just mad because you can't appreciate the art in Spec Ops' story.

>>384937559
You're right. That's why they didn't just do a 1:1 Heart of Darkness and did something different.

>>384936674
Holy shit i can't even say the game went over your head because of how stupid you are.
Seriously, this game isn't even that ahead of it's time. Actually the premise is pretty simple.
Tell a story.
The game is only telling a story about Walker and his struggle with the situation, but most of you vidya fags have to take the message personally and blame the devs for making you do bad stuff. That is the single worst interpretation of the game there is.
It's not about enjoying the game or not. It's about thinking and reflecting about the game's themes. It's about more than that instant rush of adrenaline that action games give you. It's about the feeling the game leaves you when it punches you with such a strong story and how a character like Walker who had he best intentions while on his mission ended up in such a fucked situation that the best way out of it was actually indulging in his guilt and killing himself.
Seriously, if only you autists could overcome this stupid interpratation of how the devs blame you for killing civilians and that you should stop playing the game (seriously, who the fuck would be stupid enough to tell their audience to stop experiencing their creation) you could actually see how nuanced and meaninful this game's story is.

>>384937504
I agree with the picture on some level because you'll have idiots trying to find meaning in shit where there is none and end up over-analyzing too hard.

I'm not saying we shouldn't analyze or there shouldn't be any depth, but sometimes a thing is just a thing.

>>384937584
That loses its argument when you realize it was supposed to let the player choose actions. The rest is just the devs damage controlling.

>>384936850
>implying just because you made all the right decisions the narrative can't continue to punish walker

I'm sorry that you need games that positively reinforce you to keep you engaged. Go back to games where losing is impossible, like BOTW and Minecraft.

>>384937353
>Someone placed that fucking disgusting, slimy disease ridden snail on that poor baby turtle

Absolutely disgusting, I'd have beaten the shit out of the person who set this photo up.

No fucking respect for nature whatsoever .

Disgusting.

>>384937559
How does a game that regularly alters the level of interactivity the player has not take advantage of the medium?

It's using interactivity to emphasize various story beats. That's about as good as you get when it comes to video games.

>>384937421
I imagine it would have gone something like this:
>WP scene
>teammates keep harping on about there always being a choice
>THERE IS ALWAYS A CHOICE, WALKER
>scene proceeds
>player sees the effects of WP
>Player: "Hmm, they WERE saying there is always a choice."
>player reloads the game, tries a different thing, falsely believing the game's repeated statements
Yes, it was directed at Walker and meant entirely in-story, rather than in a meta sense. But video games are the kind of wonderful medium that usually encourages experimentation. I wouldn't blame anyone for taking the repeated signalling of choice as a subtle way of letting the player know they have alternatives. It'd actually be pretty smart design. No overt hints, but apparently in-story nagging that turns out to have a hidden meaning for the player.

Of course, that's not at all how Spec Ops works.

>>384937717
That's what I mean, sometimes a Cigar is just a Cigar. The devs here are obviously just pretending Spec Ops is more than it is.

DUDE I SELF-INSERT AS EVERYTHING I PLAY LMAO
I ALSO PLAY GIRLS IN MMOS CUZ IM A CLOSET FAG
the thread

>>384937731
>That loses its argument when you realize it was supposed to let the player choose actions.

If Spec Ops had moral choices it would be way worse.

>>384937559
>let me just limit the way people can do art
Yeah, fuck off you don't own the medium

>>384934657
>Didn't the developers said (and even the games hinted it) that if you would just stop playing the game, none of this would've happened..


>You can save Romeo and Juliet if you stop reading

Woah, i never knew i had this much power

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I just remember when the Spec Ops games were good

>>384938084
More like trap them in the eternally frozen moment when you stopped reading. Aware, but unable to fulfil their fate. Forever.

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>>384937463
>>384937464
>>384937584
>>384937751
Wait, I'm confused, how did I trigger you kiddos?

It's an *okay* game but the effect of the "deep" story was lost on me because I had realized what the game was trying to do from the start. The game wasn't surprising at all. I knew nothing about the game beforehand and the only thing I didn't see coming was that the one dude was actually dead.

I wanted to follow instructions; the game didn't let me. I think that is bad design. I think something like the secret ending in Farcry 4 is good design. Not only can you do what you are told but you are rewarded if you do so. Don't force me down some path and then act like "Ohohoh we got you, you bad boy you! Should've followed those instructions we didn't let you follow."

>>384937959
Hell, for that matter, you could even give the player the choice and potentially show that sometimes even choosing the right options doesn't always work out well to help hammer home their message. Good intentions and actions aren't always enough, but you can try that route if you want to.

>>384938149
Isn't that the game where Easy Difficulty is actually the hardest difficulty and vise versa?

>>384935798
But the gameplay wasn't bad you fucking dunce

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>>384938000
This wouldn't be a problem if the game wasn't constantly taking potshots at the player for choices they aren't allowed to make.

>>384938204
Why doesn't hotline miami let me just stay home and play videogames

>>384938263
It was extremely generic and mind-numblingly boring. It's what I turn to when I think of a by-the-numbers TPS.

>>384937353
I'm not the anon you were responding to previously, mate. Don't have knee-jerk reactions as well.
>>384937356
>Why direct them at me
Because it's trying to make sure you separate yourself from Walker. There's messages which can be seen as either directed at Walker or even Walker's thoughts, while others are to make you feel that sort of cognitive dissonance that's reflected on Walker's mindset.
The whole, do you feel like a hero yet?" is one of the lines that's directed at both. The player for wanting a power fantasy and at Walker for wanting to save the people of Dubai while fucking them at every turn.
Take into account that the marketing for the game was the standard military shooter. They wanted people to go in thinking they were going to kill hundreds while still being called heroes. They play around with that idea by making you question what you're getting out of the whole thing.
>But I just wanted a fun tps game
Then look at the game just as a tps game without a story. Skip cutscenes whenever you can and just play for fun. No harm no foul

>>384938207
This would have made a much better game.

I really don't understand the hate for this game.
It's an overrated shooter with decent story and gameplay.
It's not a bad game and it's not the most overrated game

>>384938204
>I think something like the secret ending in Farcry 4 is good design. Not only can you do what you are told but you are rewarded if you do so.

people are making fun of you because you seem to constantly require head pats and positive reinforcement to enjoy a game

>>384938325
Never played it but I kinda doubt anyone tells you to stay home and play vidya in Hotline Miami. Though, if they do, they should let you.

>>384938357
>The player for wanting a power fantasy
What if I didn't want a power fantasy? Why bother putting the message at me if it doesn't apply? Just feels like a heavy-handed attempt at making me feel bad for something the developers were too lazy to program in and then followed up by the scapegoat of "well you could have just stopped playing man"

>>384938487
You should it touches on many of the same themes without triggering people somehow

>>384938207
I know Spec Ops fans will dismiss that idea in ways ranging from "but the story is all Walker's, not yours!" to "you could always just turn off the game!" but I wanted you to know I really like that idea. I'm actually upset it wasn't handled like that in Spec Ops. They could easily have programmed something like that in with minimal effort, even in the WP scene. Maybe have the enemy soldiers blow up the trucks containing WP rounds as a way of covering their retreat from you, effecting the same scene with civilians, which you would still be at least partly responsible for.

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With some tweaking Spec Ops could've been a really good game such as this >>384919995
They could've given you a choice without TELLING you you had a choice. You can shoot the dude, which is what most people would insticually do, or shoot up in the air.
The white phosphorous scene is poorly handled because the game FORCES you to use it, rather than letting you CHOOSE to use it. The enemies never stop coming until you use the WP.
They could've had this throughout the whole game, making choices without even knowing you were and that would've been great. Then I would've been okay with them going "hurr u bad guy u do bad thing" because I was choosing to be a bad guy, not forced into being one.

>>384938486

What do you mean? I expect if I'm told "your mission is to see if there is anyone alive in the city; if there is come back and report to us" that I should be able to do so. When I tried and it wouldn't let me, I knew something was up.

I don't want to be patted on the head, I want to be able to go back to base and report that there actually are people there. If that's the end of that, then that's the end.

>>384938510
>What if I didn't want a power fantasy?

You bought a third person cover shooter. Third person cover shooters where you mow down hundreds of goons are power fantasies.

>>384916996
>dude i shitpost

>>384938296
thats the point. sometimes there isnt a choice

>>384938226
uuuh whhhhhhhhaaaaaa
you probably just explained why that game was so hard for me as a kid

>>384938510
>What if I didn't want a power fantasy? Why bother putting the message at me if it doesn't apply?

Jesus fucking christ

people are this stupid

>What if i played a dating sim but didn't want go go fuck anime women?

>>384938357
>I'm not the anon you were responding to previously, mate
You answered questions I strongly implied were rhetorical and didn't matter at all. Moreover, your answer conflicted directly even with the unimportant case that was my own experience of the game. You done did goofed.

>>384938296
Acquire the mental capacity to not be affected by generic load screen messages and you just might make it IRL one day

>>384937959
Walker responds to those always a choice comment by saying something like "no, there isn't"
The guy literally says there's no choice. He wants to use it and won't stop until all the white dots are gone.

>>384938628
>>384938726
Then why try to make me feel bad about doing it in a heavy handed fashion as if I had control over it?

You can go
>DO YOU FEEL LIKE A HERO YET
if I had no agency in the decision.

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>>384924054
>If Spec Ops was made by a wacky Japanese dev and panned by journalists, /v/ would have unanimously loved it and bent over backwards to ignore its flaws.

>>384938808
>You can
meant can't

Point is, it feels like they're trying to deliver a message with the subtlety of a brick but don't bother giving alternatives to substantiate that, ultimately blaming the player despite the fact they had no way to affect the outcome since the game didn't have alternative options.

>>384938510
I'm a fucking clairvoyant since I answered before you asked that, in the same post you responded to.
>But I just wanted a fun tps game
>Then look at the game just as a tps game without a story. Skip cutscenes whenever you can and just play for fun. No harm no foul

>>384938752
Keep in mind this entire conversation relates to the game admonishing the player for Walker's actions. We're discussing a scenario where the player would (or would not) collaborate with Walker on those actions, earning the admonishment (or otherwise). In other words, we're trying to figure out how the game's claims to player agency could actually be made true.

>>384938979
>Then look at the game just as a tps game without a story. Skip cutscenes whenever you can and just play for fun. No harm no foul
The problem with that is the TPS gameplay is middle of the road generic shit, too. So you're left with a story that is cramming it's dick in your face and game that just isn't that fun to play.

>>384938808
>Then why try to make me feel bad about doing it

because it a game that is criticizing power fantasy shooter games by radically altering the context the game takes place in.

I'm not really sure why you're saying you had no choice, you decided you wanted to play a shoot em up power fantasy. You could have grabbed any other game but decided you wanted to turn your brain off and blow up some sandskins.

>>384939073
Oh no?

>>384938347
>Great art design
>Great level design
>Good variety of guns
>Very few bugs
>Different types of well coordinated enemies
>Teamates who can hold their own and are actually useful
>Some elements in the gameplay change over the course of the story to follow the narrative and Walker's mental state
>Gameplay tropes used alongside narrative devices to further advance the nuances of the storytelling (e.g. sandstorms making it difficult to see things clearly)
You can make a point by saying the gunplay was average but the gameplay was nowhere near generic.

>>384917525
No, the gameplay itself is blunt as rocks.

>>384938979
The story still happens even if you skip the cutscenes. People still die. Trying to wash your hands of guilt doesn't change anything.

Do you feel like a hero yet?

>>384939073
THEN CRITICIZE THE GAME FOR THAT
Jesus fucking christ, what's so hard to say " I don't care for the story. Didn't find the game fun."
Why fucking argue about the story then if you don't want a game to discuss power fantasies?

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>>384917525
Uhh, about that...

>>384928334
t. Someone who wanted to see the monster at the end of the book

>>384938605
walker is the bad guy. THATS WHAT EVERYONE HAS BEEN SAYING. ITS DONE.

>>384939274
Will the Souls/Bloodfag meme ever die?

>>384939093
>because it a game that is criticizing power fantasy shooter games by radically altering the context the game takes place in.
because you play as a bad guy? oh no i guess? good job for blaming the player and not really providing alternatives or even showing how the alternatives could have been worse for walker or the player? good job for not using the gameplay medium to its maximum by getting the player fully immersed?

>I'm not really sure why you're saying you had no choice, you decided you wanted to play a shoot em up power fantasy.
this is a fucking cop out answer and you know it. it's a medium designed to be played. by just saying "dude you could have shut it off" you're basically deflecting any criticism against the way it told its story and delivered the message it was trying to tell.

>>384938198
No way, if i stop playing Spec Ops then i get the good ending.
The best ending is where i don't buy the game at all and everybody ends up being happy.
Like the alternate ending of The Butterfly Effect

>>384939643
It always amuses me how people's entire arguments hinge on the game calling them a meanie in the loading screens

>>384939643
>by just saying "dude you could have shut it off"

I never said that. I said you bought a big dumb cover shooter and the game is criticizing you for buying a big dumb cover shooter.

Unless you got the game as a gift for free, you yourself made the choice to get it. You wanted to mow down fools and the game provided that in a different context.

>>384938563
A game does something and it is bashed, except for the people that "get it"
Another game tries for the same message and it isn't bashed.
I wonder why...

>>384939093
>you decided you wanted to play a shoot em up power fantasy
Wouldn't a person seeking a power fantasy find exactly what they want in Spec Ops?

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Spec Ops The Line - by /v/
>Go to Dubai on recon mission to find lost soldiers
>Get shot at
>"Oh jeez we aren't allowed to engage hostiles."
>"I don't want to break the rules, I want to be a good boy who does all the big hero decisions!"
>"Time to pack up and go home."
>Retreat
>Evac
>Do paperwork
>Roll credits

>>384939643
>good job for not using the gameplay medium to its maximum by getting the player fully immersed?

Why do people think that "using the gameplay medium" ONLY means providing a bunch of happy options? By making certain things more interactable than others that is telling a story through interactivity.

>>384939824
>players want a power fantasy
>devs make a game that is a power fantasy
>at the same time they can't shut up about power fantasies being a bad thing
>they release the game all the same for monetary gain
So who's the villain in this story?

>>384939801
The game already felt like it was pushing drama to make the player feel bad without actually succeeding in doing so. That message just cemented to me how up their ass the devs were.

>>384939824
>the game is criticizing you for buying a big dumb cover shooter.
wow how bad of me to play a game. i guess the best ending is where i didn't buy it and the devs went out of business.

>you yourself made the choice to get it.
Yeah, to see what the hype was about for this "DEEP STORY" and "SUBVERSION" of the war game genre that everyone hyped to high hell only to find a generic TPS with an alright story bogged down by it intentionally trying to make me feel bad and claiming I had a choice all along.

>>384939875
hm..................................................

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>>384939942

Careful with that edge, lad.

You could've stopped playing the game anon

>>384939875
Better marketing?

>>384939949
>Why do people think that "using the gameplay medium" ONLY means providing a bunch of happy options?
wow i like how you picked that out but didn't read
>good job for blaming the player and not really providing alternatives or even showing how the alternatives could have been worse for walker or the player?
There are better ways to get across their message in the medium itself such as providing control of the situation to the player and showing how those alternatives could have limited or outright ended up worse for trying to do the good thing in a violent situation. Basically, a lot like >>384938207 was saying. Instead of railroading me along and trying to force their cock down my throat of how bad I and Walker are, they could have showed the consequences of trying to walk a morally upright path in a warzone where such options aren't present. They could have even made Walker's decent work more dynamically as a result since choosing the happy options and having them result in horrible outcomes despite the intentions could have made Walker a much more jaded character at the end, ultimately regretting the fact that maybe he didn't take a more aggressive approach from the beginning. Maybe resulting in some of the side characters dying sooner as a result of him trying to do the right thing? You could have still turned him into a monster by the end and gave the players the agency to try and stop it from happening.

>>384940070
>wow how bad of me to play a game. i guess the best ending is where i didn't buy it and the devs went out of business.

The best ending is where you think about the content of the games that you are buying.

>Yeah, to see what the hype was about for this "DEEP STORY" and "SUBVERSION" of the war game genre that everyone hyped to high hell only to find a generic TPS with an alright story bogged down by it intentionally trying to make me feel bad and claiming I had a choice all along.

I'm not sure how to tell you this, but knowing about a plot twist can rob its impact. Spec Ops wasn't marketed or sold as a subversive game until near release, as far as anyone could tell it was just a big dumb war shooter. That's how most people played it when it released and that's why the story had an impact to it. If you go into Spec Ops already knowing what happens, you're going to be looking out for foreshadowing and hints that were meant to be more in the background.

You know the worst part about these threads?
It's not that some people are more emotional towards one side of the conversation or not.
No, what's truly bad about these threads is that no one bothers to fucking read the fucking thread. This entire thread boils down to
>Game is bad because it called me bad
>Counter-argument
>Counter-argument
>Someone else comes in an adds
>Game is bad because it calls me bad
>Counter-argument
>Counter-argument
>Someone else comes in an adds
>Game is bad because it calls me bad
I'm fucking tired having to repeat the same argument to ten different anons asking the exact same thing.
I'm out /v/. You all tire me sometimes.
Just listen to this song and try to enjoy yourselves a bit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jNJYWwAZZ8&index=102&list=WL

>>384940463
>I'm not sure how to tell you this, but knowing about a plot twist can rob its impact.
All I knew is that it was hyped up and people were calling it the deepest story in gaming. I knew literally nothing else but that and that it was a shooter. I didn't even know it was third person until I started.

>>384940585
>people were calling it the deepest story in gaming
I highly fucking doubt this

there were threads and threads about how reviewers were making it sound like more than it was

>>384940449
>and gave the players the agency to try and stop it from happening.

the whole point of the game is that the player is a willing participant, you mongoloid. Like, no shit, that is basically the extent of the metanarrative in the game.

Why does everyone want this game to tiptoe around calling them a bad person and give them options so they aren't complicit? don't be so fragile, it's just fiction.

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> game is about hero complex
> "wtf why can't I be the hero"
> tells anon what the game is about
> "lol I didn't want to be the hero, I just wanted to be the hero, why can't I?"

Spec Ops is the game equivalent of Mom taking away your tendies, and it's fucking glorious for it

>>384940730
>the whole point of the game is that the player is a willing participant
You could say that about literally any medium. That doesn't make it a profound point.

>Why does everyone want this game to tiptoe around calling them a bad person
I don't want them tiptoeing around it, I want to feel like I had a hand in it instead of the devs only giving me the option to have a hand in it. Why not give me the option to try and do good only to have that work out worse? Then you could push the message that good intentions aren't enough and that ultimately it's still your fault regardless. Would have made them pushing how bad I was have more impact..

>>384940918
>t. anon who didn't read the thread

>>384941001
The game does give you quite a bit of choices though

did you shoot the crowd of refugees that was amassing around Lugo?

The only one you get fucking brick walled at is the very basis of the game (Pushing forward to fight Konrad) and the white phosphorus bomb, because it was way too big of a plot point and made message about similar segments in games like COD

>>384917941
Do good thing! You have literally no other choice. DO GOOD THING!
>does good thing
"wow... i'm a hero... deep"
literally every video game ever.
It's a fucking story, you don't have to self insert for every fucking game. The game is not trying to make you responsible, its trying to make you feel for the fucking character you are playing.

>>384941001
>Why not give me the option to try and do good only to have that work out worse?

Because then you are 100% blameless for Walker's actions. You tried to stop him and be a hero, but that bad bad man Walker just disobeyed and did his own thing.

I'm not really sure why you want this game to bend over backwards to make you feel like you're a hero.

>>384941543
>You tried to stop him and be a hero, but that bad bad man Walker just disobeyed and did his own thing.
Do you even know how video games work?

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>>384941151
That's exactly what people are saying though.

> Why can't my self-insert-character be treated like a hero? Why does he have to go through a self destructive arc? Fuck you game!

Every goddamn Spec Ops thread is liek this.

> Visually stunning
> Tight and staisfying gameplay, shallow, but it doesn't matter for such a short game
> 10/10 soundtrack
> Incredibly well paced and well written story (even ignoring all the meta aspects)
> best Nolan North performance in his entire career, and top tier voiceacting all around
> Incredibly well detailed, a huge amount of little things to discover. Hugely dense.
> Runs basically flawlessly
> Devs are /ourguys/ who hate industry-nonsense multiplayer
> "muh WP scene why can't I be the hero"
> 0/10

t. /v/

>>384941001
>'Good' route:
>Player tries to be a hero but at a great cost
>At the end, the player is called out for all that he has sacrificed because of misplaced idealism

>'Bad' route:
>Player is an ass
>He gets called out for being an ass

You can mix and match this, and there are ways in which you can solve the situation "neutrally", but never without facing consequences

Choice? There was never a choice. This is war, buddy.
There, the original message is mantained, no one can complain that they are bing called out for things they don't have any control over

>>384930996
>They wanted to implicate the player, not just the protag.
BECAUSE IT'S A FUCKING VIDEO GAME YOU LITERAL FUCKING RETARD.

>>384916996
if you want to make it about player choice then you could always just... TURN THE FUCKING GAME OFF AND PLAY SOMETHING ELSE YOU FUCKING TARD.

>>384941389
The outcome in most of the smaller choices usually ends up the same, though. I would have liked to really see them do larger choices that may have drastically effected the story or shown different ways somebody can become a monster, or maybe even greatly affected what levels you went through or when your squadmates died. Like no matter what things were going to turn out badly, but really show how in a situation like the one they were in can progress differently into a different kind of monster.

>Because then you are 100% blameless for Walker's actions
I already am. Because he's his own separate character according to other anons. Meaning I had no real agency in the story and the game trying to brick me over the head with how bad I am just feeling pointless.

I'm not even saying stop him, I'm saying show an alternative path to that monster. Fully subvert his good intentions and throw them back in the players face showing how by trying to be the good guy they really just made everything worse. I get the feeling the game was trying to do something like that at some point, but it didn't really have any impact because you didn't have a choice at all.

>>384941621
You are the one who suggested that.

You said
>Why not give me the option to try and do good only to have that work out worse? Then you could push the message that good intentions aren't enough

Either that means that Walker doesn't start doing a bunch of crazy bullshit, or it means that you try to do something different and fail at it.

>>384941672
Walt, stop posting. You ain't fooling anybody.

>>384941729
This is a good alternative to what I mean. People in a violent situation aren't always going to come out whole, and even doing the "good" thing means having to do a whole lot worse to get to it.