What precisely is the reason why Sonic became bad?

>>384913152
It always was.

Deviantart

Iizuka.

>>384913152
sega is fucking retarded

lack of polish, no direction and a obnoxious main character.

>>384913152
It was bad from the start.

It's a platformer, which means that it requires precision to defeat enemies and overcome obstacles. Then for some godawful reason SEGA decided that it shouldn't just be a platformer, it should be a platformer that emphasizes speed. This means that any level which takes advantage of the speed aspect is basically autopilot (Green Hill Zone) and any level that strays from that formula becomes a slog with unwieldy platforming.

SA1 made many, many mistakes in 1998 for many reasons.
Rather than fix any of the major problems in future 3D installments they doubled down or turned them into features.

Nintendo

>>384913152
3D

>>384913152
3D engines.

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>>384913223
>>384913551

The classics including Sonic 3&K want a chat

>>384914145
lmao sonic is gay

>>384913152
the fans dont know what the fuck the yreally want

The transition from 2D to 3D and the teams behind the first games weren't around in their entirety.

>>384914145
more like the classics EXCEPT 3&K and CD

trying to go 3d and failing miserably

sonic was always terrible

>>384913152
Spindash

>>384913152
sonic skipped a good transition to 3d. if adventure 1 had been on the saturn the team would have had a lot more understanding and know how to iron out the kinks in the transition. Instead sonic skipped a whole generation and by that point Sega was already on the backfoot and on the verge of bankrupcy.

>>384913152
He began to talk.

>>384913152
People didn't praise Heroes as the second coming of Jesus when it was the perfect direction for Sonic games to go in.

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Yuji Naka being a programmer and not a designer, him leaving Sega was the best thing to happen to the IP.

Anyway, pic related.

>>384916607
>Sonic and The Black Knight
>Shit

You wanna know how I know you didn't play the game on an emulator.

>>384917091
Everyone said it's about as bad as Sonic 06.

Sonic Heroes = Beginning of the End

Sonic Rush = Beginning of Boostshit

Sonic Unleashed = Beginning of only 1 playable character, and 2.5D levels

>>384917182
It's very, very, VERY good. Has good story, great music. But it plays like absolute trash using Wii Remotes because you can't hit any good lines with any accuracy at all. Map the controls to a real controller, and it's fucking Kino. Same goes for Free Riders, honestly. Apparently someone got that game working on a controller and it plays like diamonds.

>le sanic was always bad maymay

Didn't realize there were legit ign cocksuckers on /v/

>>384913152
Sonic fans.

>>384917381
Homebrew is excluded from the list.

http://www.ign.com/games/sonic-the-black-knight/wii-14268379

>>384915769
boostcuck detected

>>384917546
Is it really homebrew when it's just taking the controls as they are and taking out the motion control parts?

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>>384917432
>IGN saying "sonic was always bad" unironically made it always good, just mediocre in the Adventure/Other 3D titles

>>384917546
That seems like an arbitrary standard. When you're picking which port of a game on that list, do you always pick the worst one or the best one? Just because it's not official doesn't mean that games doesn't exist as it is.

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Adventure 1&2 were the best 3D Sonic Games.

>>384913152
It HAS ALWAYS BEEN bad. Most of his games are basically running into some shit and pressing the right button

Sega Studios USA.

>>384917927
t.IGN
Git gud you faggot

>>384917631
If you have to change what out of the box it's homebrew.

>>384918257
Is it homebrew if I customize the controls in the options screen on a PS4? Is it homebrew if I use a non-standard controller?

>>384917927
Also is boring as fuck

>>384918365
PS4 supports it out of the box with a firmware update, the Wii never had that.

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>>384916607
>Shadow the Hedgehog

>>384918504
And the PC supports an emulator which supports input mapping out of the box.

>>384918770
Black Knight was Wii only and Dolphin does not count.

>>384918861
So does the PC versions of games like Max Paine 2 not count as a copy of Max Paine 2? Those are literally roms sold with emulators.

>>384914189
Yuji Naka took a look at (you) and got inspiration.

>>384913551
lol

>>384917182
>I think it's bad because someone else said it's bad

Ok dude.

>>384919030
No, because the game is sold to you like that.

Having to modify the game to make it not suck means the game is shit as 99% of the people who buy the game either don't know modding exists or don't know how to mod.

>>384916293
Exactly what your parents thought as you spoke your first word, "am a huge fag"

>>384919425
That sounds like a (you) problem. It's literally just controller mapping. It's not a mod. It's not changing anything about the game. It's just an option. It's like saying a game MUST be played at a certain volume because the options only give you a range of volumes, even though your T.V. has a bunch of other options for volume

>>384916607
>food analogy

Delte this

>>384917737

If you have to go out of your way and use third party programs or applications to change something as basic as the controls to something workable, there's a huge problem.
Besides that, it doesn't actually fix the games' problems. It isn't the same as simply rebinding waggle to a button for Donkey Kong Wii (which should still be criticized for making such an asinine decision to begin with).
The gameplay is flawed on a fundamental level that would take a complete overhaul to be worth anything. The combat is built around barely functional motion controls, it's shallow to the point that it can barely even be called a combat "system". All of the rival fights devolve in flaily, spammy messes because the combat system isn't complex enough to allow for any kind of fighting besides flailing random attacks while occasionally blocking. Even C-list PS2 action games have more going on than this combat. The level design is oppressively dull and flat to the point where you can skip the vast majority of hazards and enemies just by using knuckles' glide. Because Secret Rings/Black Knight's movement and camera system can't support any kind of complicated or intricate level design. The best example are the Legacy Stages, which are hysterically basic and empty and play like some fanmade parody of 3D Sonic. The missions don't even begin to become interesting until after you beat the game. The multiplayer mode isn't even worth looking at. It's a Bad Game. Nothing can save it besides a complete overhaul.
Honestly, this kind of white knighting trash games is at least part of the reason why Sonic has been in such a sorry state for the past two decades.

>>384920350
>Besides that, it doesn't actually fix the games' problems. It isn't the same as simply rebinding waggle to a button for Donkey Kong Wii

>Map waggle to the right analogue stick. Up wings on up, side to sides on left and right, and down swings on down
>All of a sudden the combat makes sense and the boss fights work

Maybe you should go back and try again.

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>>384920350
>hating donkey kong country wii

fucking hell

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>>384913152
maybe you just never liked it?

i think sonic force is fucking horrible but thats because im disapointed and feels like a backpedalling move from sega. Its a dead end, just like xenoverse but thats a fucking anime based series thats only waiting for new characters and arcs to be ported.

i dont even like sonic 3 and knucles and the first adventure game is pretty meh.

still, there are sonic games i like a lot that are terrible (shadow) and sonic games that are pretty good but i dont like them (generations).

i think this whole "sonic was never good" is just a meme and people never liked sonic in first place or dont know what they want, so, fuck off?

>>384917876
So they're the turds that smell the least like shit?

it doesnt work in a 3d space

>>384920587

It doesn't fix how shallow the combat system really is once you remove the layer of jank between the controls and the game. It doesn't fix the flat, empty level design. It doesn't fix that the fundamentally fucked movement system. It doesn't fix that nearly all of the game's interesting content is locked behind the ending.
Again, stop white knighting trash. SEGA has absolutely no reason to care about quality if their fanbase just eats it up. Thankfully it looks like even they didn't eat up this game, since they cancelled the spinoff series.

>>384920810

Feel free to point out where I said I hated DKC:R. I used DKC:R as an example of when simply rebinding controls does indeed, fix the game's most major problem, as the game itself is solid outside of the waggle.
I just noted that the game shouldn't get off scott-free just because there's third party workarounds. Not everyone has a computer capable of comfortably running Dolphin, or has access to Gecko codes on their Wii, or are even aware that either of those two options exist. It's still a flaw with the game if you decide to play it on regular hardware, as intended, as the vast majority of people who actually played the game did.

>>384922276
>Fundamentally fucked movement system
>Flat empty levels

It's flat because you're moving fast through it and doing combat. How long does the average level take you? More than 3 minutes? The movements system is "fucked" for you because it requires you to hit lines which require you to accurately swing in the correct direction. It's not fucked if you hit those lines.

Once again, you fix the controls and you fix the game. Maybe try what I said to do and come back to me.

>>384922276
Fair enough, you never said DKCR was bad. But if you think Retro Studios cannot do motion control for their games, then you must have a mental aversion to motion controls in general.

>>384913152
Sega couldn't get their shit together after the genesis and with every Sonic game after Adventure, the quality dipped more rather than improving.

Rouge the bat

>>384922276
>Flat Levels
>Fucked movements system
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDoy93bfUYs

>>384913152
Existing in a game genre that is now boring and outdated and failing to make a single decent 3d game like mario did.

>1
Bad
>2
Good
>3
Good
>Knuckles
Good
>3&K
Best
>CD
Good
>SA
Bad
>SA2
Bad
>Advance
Bad
>06
Bad
>Unleashed
Bad
>Colors
Good
>Generations
Good

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>>384913152
The Saturn is the reason, or I guess more precisely the executive incompetence that led to the Saturn. Because Sega fucked themselves over so hard with the Saturn, they needed to make as much money as possible with the Dreamcast. As a result, Sonic Adventure threw everything it possibly could at the wall with little polish to see what stuck. When Sega finally gave up and went third-party, they still needed to make as much profit as possible to dig their finances out of their hole. Since Sonic was their most popular property worldwide, they churned out a bunch of Sonic games with relatively low budgets, short deadlines, and no polish. Sonic 06 was ultimately the culmination of a decline that began over ten years earlier.

If the Saturn era wasn't a complete disaster in every possible conceivable way, Sonic would still be considered a good franchise, or at least along the same lines as Mario where it's at least well made on every objective technical aspect, even if the design feels shallow and repetitive.

>>384922503

>It's flat because you're moving fast through it and doing combat.

That would be understandable if the combat had any depth or there were any real movement mechanics besides jump dashing to speed yourself up a little or using your soul to boost at a fixed speed. As it stands there are Genesis era beat em ups with far more depth than this combat. And the fast is holding up and watching Sonic run through empty corridors and scripted sequences.

>The movements system is "fucked" for you

It's fucked because we've had two games' worth of proof demonstrating that it is impossible to create any kind of interesting level design with this style of movement and camera. It has all been flat, empty, rectangular corridors, because the level design has to account for how awkward general movement is, especially in Secret Rings where it stacked unresponsive tilt controls on top.
You can like the story and buttrock all you want, but there's no saving this gameplay.

>>384922893

>But if you think Retro Studios cannot do motion control for their games, then you must have a mental aversion to motion controls in general.

Again, I never said that. Motion controls in the case of DKCR was acknowledged as a mistake by both the vast majority of fans and Retro. As evidenced by the fact that the 3DS version of R and Tropical Freeze let you hit a button to roll instead of forcing you shake your gyroscope.

>>384923580

Is this supposed to convince me otherwise? It's a flat, rectangular corridor with 1 hit kill enemies that the player spinjumps through (or just flat out ignores). There's no platforming more advanced than hopping up single steps with no stakes or hazards to them. There's no alternate paths aside from one instance where you can jump to boost ring past all the enemies on the one path. The only noteworthy part stage gimmick is the ballista, which is a scripted sequence with no depth to it.

>>384924141
>Colors
>Good
Meh it was okay at best

>>384913551
>for some godawful reason
The genesis beat the SNES in processor speed, meaning it could load and deload graphics faster, which is what they emphasized

>>384913259
This is it.

>the way Sonic Xtreme was handled
>the death of the dreamcast
>the fucking state of Sonic games in 2004-2009

>>384924269
>Mario
>shallow and repetitive
lolno

>>384917306
this

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Lack of direction or a cohesive idea on how to transition to 3D. There have been sparks of brilliance here and there since the classics, but it was always fleeting. Forces looks like more of the same. Mania looks like GOTY.

>>384913152
Sonic Team did not know how to make a good 3D game back in 1998
and almost 20 years later they still don't. They bog up 3D Sonic games with shitty gimmicks, unnecessary mechanics, unpolished gameplay, the works.

There's some good shit in the pile like the Half of Unleashed, Colors, Gens, SA1, but majority of 3D Sonic games suffer from these problems and they've never bothered trying to fix them. They make a gameplay style, if people like it do it one or two more times, then move on to something else.

TLDR: Sonic Team is a garbage 3D developer.

SEGA lost all sense of direction with the series and tried to listen to their "fans" and gaming media reviewers, the two groups that hate Sonic the most. 2006 was the biggest misstep and failure, and after that SEGA lost all confidence and has never recovered.

>>384913152
It was funny to make fun of for very minor things

That's it.

I also like IGN, IGN articles, & IGN personalities! Just a goof bro!

>>384914359
>CD
>bad
It must take a lot to have taste this bad.

>>384916303
Blame Sony.