the fuck is ludonarrative dissonance is it some form of autism

>>384570257
It's like when you beat a boss and then the story can only continue if you lose, so you get shown the losing cutscene anyway.

It embraces that "it's just a game".

>>384570564
>>384570510
oh wait so it's more of a complaint about "ludonarrative dissonance" when it's brought up then?

It means there is a dissonance (disagreement) between ludo (the game) and narrative (the story); for example in GTA when the protagonist expresses remorse for killing some guy or a mission revolves about getting rid of single corpse but the player is free to kill hundreds of bystanders while performing those tasks.

>>384570257
It's basically the opposite of immersion, something that takes you out of a game usually in a shitty way. I don't see it ignores "it's just a game".

>>384570678
Yes.

>>384571216
yeah I already posted my thoughts, seems like it's more about people complaining about the game being "like a game" >>384570678

>>384570257
It's a fancy way of saying that the game play and story contradict each other. Say for example the main hero hates killing and whines whenever the story calls on him or her to do so, but the game play has you slaughter enemies left and right.

Basically just when the gameplay seems to be doing the exact opposite of what the story is intending to teach.

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>>384570257
The overuse of this term is dumb but it has some uses.

It is applied to narrative during gameplay vs narrative during story, for example in MGS you can go guns blazing killing countless soldiers but story will still treat it like you are still sneaking around.

>play Deus Ex HR
>be all stealthy and shit
>In every cutscene Adam storms in giving no fucks getting no other alternative than to engage to the boss

>>384571498
It's turned into a catchall for bad design. I heard people using it as an excuse for why andromeda dialogue didn't line up properly. That's just bad design. However modern developers who are just not that good at their job use it as a term to make their shit product sound less shit.

daym

>>384571331
You're probably looking for suspension of disbelief.

Ludonarrative dissonance is also why Japan has a hard time catching up with some western design philosophies. They look at games as simply a game so they don't explore what else could be done in the medium. It's definitely changing now but it wasn't always the case.

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>>384570257
>kill hundreds of enemies on the way to a boss
>get to boss
>IF YOU KILL HIM YOU'LL BE JUST LIKE HIM [Press X to Spare His Life]

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Jesus christ it haven't even been a decade and all these new game "studies" departments are already producing pseudo-intellectual horseship by the metric ton.

>>384570257
you know where you're in the fucking zone and totally beat the shit out of a boss 1CC no hit triple SSStylish rank no items SL1, but then the cutscene afterwards has you barely come out alive catching your breath as the boss chuckles about how you aren't ready to face him yet and walks off. thats ludonarrative dissonance

>>384571208
this is also a really good example, the gta protagonists keep being like remorseful try to get out but they keep pulling me back in types but literally everyone who buys gta games does it to go on comical over the top brutal rampages

>>384572143
I mean, I understand bad narration and design but why is there a need for a coin like this

>>384571208
>ludo
>The Game
Fuck you nigger, I lost again

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>>384570257
As others already said, it's the inconsistencies between the gameplay and the narrative

>murder of a single story-important enemy is played for drama, slaughter of countless civilians and mooks is ignored
>arbitrary party member limit
>arbitrary game overs over deaths of certain party members
>cutscenes ignoring things you've done, like your playstyle, information you've acquired, your weapon and equip
>teleports and quick travel shortcuts in a world that takes weeks and months to travel lore-wise
>random puzzles and obstacles that makes sense only in the context of gameplay
>the story is rushing you to prevent a disaster but you still have time to finish every side quest
>plot critical deaths that can't be prevented by your healing items/spell for no reason
>cutscene-specific powerups and abilities

>>384570257
It is when you have a narrative focused game with scenes that doesnt make sense with the gameplay.

Think of the Last of Us.

>>384571956
But that's why Japan makes the best games

A good example of this was Tomb Raider 2013, where the narrative pretended like Lara was scared, way in over her head, and barely capable of surviving on the island, but you ended up wiping out pretty much everyone there who tried to kill you, and racked up a body count of like, over 200.

I don't see what's wrong with coining a phrase for bullshit like that.

>>384571956
Not even remotely true, if anything western games struggle with this the most because they fall for the realism meme.

>>384572223
Do you have a phrase/term that captures what is being said here >>384571208 that is more elegant and less "pretentious".

If you can think of one im sure we'd all be happy to use it, until then stop being retarded. The phrase in itself is fine, there really isnt a way to talk about ludonarrative dissonance without inventing it as a term and its the best we've got. The faglords who overuse it and atach it to everything should neck themselves but if you are going to hate a word because stupid people use it you wont have many words left to use at all

>>384572403
the problem becomes apparent when people misuse it to every video game

>>384572491
true enough I suppose

>>384572223
>>384572491
TVTropes call it "gameplay and story segregated" and they've used it for years

>>384572403
I really enjoyed Far Cry 3's character arc with that same premise. Was neat to see you go from a little rich suburb white kid fag to a grim survivalist and finally a damn near psychotic warrior god roleplayer as you got better and better

criticism of ludonarrative dissonance I've seen so far is actually fine

no, what's cancerous are various solutions, you get garbage like turning the whole driven into some leftist game, or turning it into a walking simulator

>>384572514
>the problem becomes apparent when people misuse it to every video game
I haven't seen much misuse of the term yet.

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>>384570257
ahem

Can Dark Souls II's "I have to murder the four strongest beings in existence because I can't climb a bunch of rubbles" be considered ludonarrative dissonance? Your character is unable to climb rubbles in the game, so it does make sense lorewise. But it's dumb.

>>384572657
wow, what pretentious shit.

>>384572657
game/vidcon master race

>>384572786
No. Ludonarrative dissonance isn't just a catch-all for dumb shit in games.

>>384570257
DAYOOOOOOO

>>384572789
wow, what shit taste

>>384572786
No, that's dumb level design.

Ludonarrative is about narrative vs the game.

>>384572657
Ahhh, console video games (or vidcons as I call them), the ultimate medium of expression, able to convey any emotion ranging from hatred to love, loyalty to fear, all in front of our eyes. Ah, and with lovingly crafted art, music, and the ability to control the action, vidcons are the ultimate combination of the high arts. While I tend to play the stoic, I will be the first to admit that vidcons have driven me to cry, to scream and shout, to feel actual hate; such is the power of this force beyond our wildest reckoning. And here I am, before you, to tempt your tongues with the taint of such a tantalizing topic. And the Japanese, the true geniuses behind the world of video games. Pah, I throw my scorn upon such incompetents of the West who would mock the true art of the Japanese with 'games' such as Baldur's Gate and Madden. Perhaps it is that the West is not as intelligent as the East, but this is a matter for another day. Japan has given us such masterpieces as the Final Fantasy series, Star Ocean, Wild Arms, and of course, Arc the Lad. Yes, some of the finest vidcons in the world were created by Japanese. I come to you today to ask you in all earnesty, what is your favorite vidcon? I will reveal mine after the grand debate has illustriously begun, but not before the first poster falls victim to my plot of discussion.

>>384571956
You did some alright bait here, have a (You) on the house.

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>>384572491
>Do you have a phrase/term that captures what is being said here >>384571208 that is more elegant and less "pretentious".
Yes: "misaligned gameplay & story".
Just like lawyers, academics are desperate to justify their own existence by coming up with ever more specialized language to describe what are actually really simple and east concepts to understand.

>>384572657
What's the nip game with the cows?

>>384572949
Is this old pasta?

>>384573627
Katamari Damacy and it should be in the Ludo section of that image.

>>384572032
>kill him
>fight a dead boring final boss
>spare him
>final boss is the coolest character in the game
Fucking Oni.

>>384573104
That's pretty open to misinterpretation though, it could mean a lot of things.

>>384574224
It's from Barkley which came out in 2008

>>384573627
>>>/out/

>>384573104
Because even though the concept is easy to understand, it still helps to have a relatively short technical term for it so other educated persons understand what you're talking about without having to write a sentence every tie you want to reference something.

"Ludonarrative dissonance" is a lot shorter than "when the gameplay and story contradict each other"

>ITT: brainlets getting mad at keywords

>>384572491
It used to just be called "bad writing" but I guess ludonudodiso or whatever is more specific, since writing that isn't bad is beyond the capabilities of most AAA game writers so we have to tell them to not fuck up one specific part of it at least.

>>384572786
Not quite. See, you can bypass the four bosses with enough soul memory but if you do the NPC will say "your soul is still frail and pallid" or something. In the case of DS2's story you beating the four bosses is not necessary, it's just a means to prove that you are worthy. Like how all of DS1 up to Anor Londo is simply proving that you're a strong enough hollow to be the "chosen undead". Everything before Drangleic Castle is simply to prove you're worthy of being "the next monarch". It's not clear because of course Souls is all wishy-washy-vague-storytelling.

Ludonarrative dissonance is like... I guess it's like when the Pyromancer girl asks you for a change of clothes and you give her some dirty fucking gloves and she's like "oh thanks this is way better" and then goes to Majula, strips naked and just wears the gloves. For the purpose of the GAMEPLAY, you simply have to give her any clothing to satisfy her. For the purpose of the STORY, she wants to change out of her dress so you logically should be giving her shirt/pants. There's a dissonance there, a pair of fucking gloves is not better than the rags she was wearing.

>>384575880
Eh the writing and gameplay can both individually be really good. 'Ludonarrative dissonance' is when they just don't match, regardless of quality

>>384570257

It's having a shitty degree in social sciences with no real chance of a decent job so you have to shitpost on the internet all day.

>>384570257
i think its just another way of saying "bad game design"

So, what are some examples of Ludonarrative ''Harmony''?

Ludonarrative dissonance is basically anti-immersion. If you think the term sounds pretentious as he'll (I kinda do) then just say anti-immersion or "X killed my immersion in the game" because it's basically the same thing. It's when shit happening in the story doesn't match what you the player have actually been doing, to the point you notice and it takes you out of the game in an unfun way.

Examples help.

>>fight your way through the boss's castle, slaughtering hundreds of soldiers just otherwise doing their job in horrific ways including dismemberment, incineration, even killing them and raising them as undead to slay their former brothers in arms
>>but when you reach the final boss NO, IF YOU KILL HIM YOU'RE JUST AS BAD AS HE IS! With no regard for the carnage you've caused on the way.
>>Mission in a game like GTA "okay guys we gotta dump these guns so they can't be traced back to us or we're in deep shit"
>>drive on the sidewalk all the way to the mission marker mowing down dozens of pedestrians. Get out of your car and shoot down a police helicopter with an RPG. Start the mission cutscene and your character is anxious over having to kill a cop to avoid going to jail or whatever. Bonus points if the cutscene is rendered in-engine and all the dead bodies are still visible in the background as you agonize over taking a single life
>>Easily win a boss fight without you or any party member taking serious damage
>>Upon winning a cutscene starts where you get your ass kicked and nothing you just did mattered. Fuck you Kai Leng.


Etc.

>>384570257
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4Oe0ev8bjA

>>384577278
I would say the prime example could be Saints Row IV.
It has no segregation between the over the top story and gameplay in contrast to other sandbox games which take themself a little too seriously in their story, yet give the player lots of freedom in the open world, like GTA IV or Red Dead Redemption.

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>>384577278
the progression of the Chosen Undead is probably one of the simplest and best examples if you're interested in the story of Dark Souls, I'm struggling to come up with other games that follow the blend of story/gameplay in a similar way. Story-based games that allow you to make important decisions with potentially large ramifications through your actions and not through dialog boxes are probably also good examples.

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Fallout 4. YOU HAVE TO FIND YOUR BABY SON

After you explore some dark dungeons and pick up some aluminum cans to make a 2x scope. Also if you play as a woman than you have no fighting experience with your law degree and you somehow are a killing machine wiping out super mutants and deathclaws in a suit of power armour you also know how to operate

>>384574590
Thanks for proving him right, retard.

>>384579610
>Also if you play as a woman than you have no fighting experience with your law degree and you somehow are a killing machine wiping out super mutants and deathclaws in a suit of power armour you also know how to operate
They change the gender of the statue based on which gender you picked. If you play as a female, you were a female soldier and your husband has the law degree. Fallout 4 is shitty enough that you don't need to make stuff up to make it sound bad.

>>384580001
What statue are you referring to? Sorry but even if that's true, Nate gives the speech at the start about fighting in the war then opens the game by saying "War never changes"

>>384572271
how is it possible that this photo is in portrait mode if smartphones weren't invented yet?

>>384580518
Did you seriously never even look at the soldier statue in the middle of the fucking town?

>>384577278
The new Doom

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>>384577278
The first Drakengard.

None of Taros games have reached the same heights since.

>>384577278
I'm sure /v/ will jump down my throat for saying this, but Undertale. For example, even the turns aren't abstractions. In Undertale, the enemies are literally standing there waiting for you to pick your move.

>>384571956
That's some pretty decent bait. Earnest, yet not overpoweringly so with a hint of confident prose. You'd make a good used car salesman.

It's nothing.
As in it doesn't exist. People keep pretending they're the next Shakesphere so they make up words and shill them until retards of the like who frequent this board use them. In reality I could just as easily make up a new word, but if the concept already has a word for it there's no point. There's no such thing as "Ludonarrative Dissonance". If anyone uses it they should be executed.

>>384580873
The one next to the bridge? Yeah I saw it, how does it's gender imply your backstory?

>>384581450
It's a statue of you and its gender changes based on which gender you pick.

>>384579610
>nipple

RIP anon

>>384581617
It's a statue of the old minutemen you fuckwit. You are still a lawyer if you're a woman

>>384580001
It doesnt change the fact that Nate was the veteran. The Law Degree in the house is still hers and not his no matter what.

>>384571208
But there's never been a GTA protagonist who has felt remorseful about killing people specifically though. When they get sad after killing someone, it's usually for some personal reason that has nothing to do with the act of killing.

You may bring up Niko, but killing people makes him feel nothing because he's done it for so long, and that's why he has no reservations about doing it anymore. He's just depressed because he feels like his bad choices in life, doing what he's good at, and his inability to see the value in human life because he's taken it away so many times have prevented him from attaining any true happiness. I don't really see the ludonarrative dissonance in a character who doesn't care about killing people killing people to get the job done or just in general, and that's been all the GTA protagonists so far.

>>384581069
I think that's more just that the game lampshades just about everything about jrpgs but I guess it still counts

>>384581382
>but if the concept already has a word
What's the word then?

>>384572271

>arbitrary game overs over deaths of certain party members

Thats actually kinda acceptable depending of the game, if the guy with the info dies, everyone turns into a headless chick with no direction and time paradoxes

but I agree with most of them

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>>384572491
>>384572564
>>384573104
>>384579631
>>384575880
>>384572223
>that is more elegant and less "pretentious".

The word is a fucking compound between the words Ludo (Study of Games) and Narrative. How is it in any way of the word, Pretentious?

Fucking brainlets, I swear.

>>384572271
some of those are chalked to video game limitations though

>>384583846
why does it have to be latin

why not just call it gameplay dissonance

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>>384583846

>>384583959
Ludology is already established as the study of video games, because the initial morpheme of Ludology, Ludo = Games.

Unless you want to invent an entirely new term for the study of gaming.

>>384583959
Because if you say "gameplay dissonance," then people have no idea what you're referring to. Dissonance between gameplay and story? Between gameplay and music (ex. super fast-paced gameplay contrasted with a smooth jazz or ambient-like OST)? Between gameplay and level design (ex. levels encouraging open playstyles but the mechanics ensure that there is only one way to play and one route to go)? It's not clear. "Ludonarrative dissonance" clearly refers to the disconnect between gameplay and story, no matter how good either might be. It's more precise. And also, English is descended from Latin, so using Latin to create English words isn't exactly an alien concept.

>>384583959
because you are already using latin-derived words wihout even knowing since is the basis of western culture

>>384584834
English words are germanic

and I already used a simple, easier-to-understand word

>>384577278
games that have a premise and not entirely dependent on plor and story, basically very "gamey" games

>>384584832
>english is descendent from latin
no pal. only romance languages descend from latin, like spanish, italian, french...
english, like german, is a mix between latin and barbaric shit from tribes beyond romanization. That's why non latin languages suck when trying to do complex stuff like poetry, but also what makes them easy to learn

>>384585092
even the fucking english word comes from the latin "anglo", you dumb fuck. read what >>384585301 said

>>384570257
it's a word videogame """""essayiste"""" on youtube will throw around along stuff like convoluted and entangled every other sentence with the same monotonous voice and the same fucking voice inflections because to sound intelligent

>>384571208
>>384571385
Hello GTA4

>>384585301
It's a Germanic language, I'll concede that to you, but that doesn't change the fact that a large portion of English vocabulary can be traced back to Latin in some way. A large portion of English words commonly used in science, technology, and academia in general have Latin roots. So yes, English may be a Germanic language, but that doesn't change my main point that it isn't alien to see Latin being used to create so-called "academic" terms in English because of how it was used for nomenclature in academia for so long.

I believe the word is contradiction, gameplay and narrative contradiction.

>>384585840
>GTA4
Not really, see
>>384583057
Also, Niko may be a hypocrite, but not because killing makes him sad during but he does it anyway seemingly with no remorse. The hypocrisy comes from Niko using his greatest skill, which is killing, to take care of himself and Roman and get them the seemingly happy lifestyle they both desired, while at the same time wanting to escape his old life. This is the hypocrisy that is very much addressed in the narrative, especially in the mission where you kill Darko, where it should be noted that he looks extremely similar to Niko, except looking far more drugged out.