Why can't a huge new MMO come out /v/? Is the genre dead?

Nah man just look at the Ed, Edd n Eddy online game.

Yes. the market is stagnant enough that no company would take a risky enough idea that the game turns out good, and no indie game studio has the budget or scope necessary for mmo's. We are in hell

>>384327674
Wish they would go the way of the RTS and just fucking DIE, then hopefully in the near future we can have a gaming renaissance and not have all the shit we have today

I wish RaiderZ was still around

hey, lets make another worthless themepark where 90% of the content is worthless when you reach max level.

because it's too large of an investment when most of the potential audience will just go back to wow or FF14 or whatever else they are invested in after a week or two

Why spend so much time, effort and money making a good MMO when you can just remove 95% of planned features/content and turn it into a shitty MOBA that makes far more money?

>>384327674
They're all shit. Vidya gameplay and graphics have evolved. MMO's microtransaction models is the only thing that has improved. It's too late, you need developers that don't care about money to make a good one at this point.

>>384328120
wow finally someone that gets it
this is so obvious to me, why it isn't obvious to everyone else who plays, develops and has anything to do with mmos? it's fucking frustrating spending that many resources in a world that just dies the second you hit max level, how can not anyone make anything about it?

>>384329010
Sandbox MMOs exist but they generally don't do very well. You could always go play EVE

I remember staring at that pic multiple times a day for a week or so while trying to convince my mother monthly subs for a game were reasonable for an MMO.

Fucking night elf druid, god damn. Staying up in the freezing winter attic until 11 pm on a week day with a blaring CRT monitor and desktop that could barely maintain 14 FPS on low.

That shit was fun at the time. I still love going back on legacy servers and just wandering old azeroth listening to that amazing ambient soundtrack.

>>384329010
>hit max level
>well guys we need them to do something
>now grind to hell to get top gears

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Every competition to WoW was either a clone or too stupid of an idea to keep people paying a sub

I can see it happening out of nowhere maybe in a decade, but not now

>>384330994
> I still love going back on legacy servers and just wandering old azeroth listening to that amazing ambient soundtrack.
For when you just want to listen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MW4fASDkQXA&list=PLdSUTU0oamrzflitm5wLvphEMVbsZwt7L

>>384331258
It's not even that, grinding is fun, being funeled into 2 zones out of 20 and repetitive instanced shit it's retarded.

Make me farm apples in boarshire, and shiny rocks in dwarfnublands, and kill drakes in molten fire valley of cock, there's so much fucking content, but it's all worthless because only thing you can do is play like 1/10 of the game over and over and over again.

>>384328120
this applies to ordinary single player rpgs too.
It is not a problem that is easily addressed without scaling content, which /v/ also hates

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>>384329010
>>384329228
>>384331258
Devs have also been systematically removing the necessity for taking part in the player community. An MMO you can play through 90% of as if it were a single player game, may as well be a single player game.

>>384331652
Power creep is what creates the necessity for scaling content.
If numeric difficulty stays the same, but player agency as far as skills and mechanics gradually opens up you've removed a large portion of the barrier between old and new players.

ALL stats increase every level, this is bad
New gear from higher levels is outright better, regardless of build, this is bad
Replaying content is made boring by your newfound ability to one shot once formidable enemies, where it could remain interesting if you only gain new ways to confront old enemies.
etc

Final fantasy 14.

The daily roulettes (and weekly "prize books") put you into old synced content for level Cap currency. And money.

It keeps people doing old content in a way that still helps them at cap and gives leveling players people to do things with.

>>384332851
Fuck off my man

Getting synced in FF14 is retarded as fuck because you lose the abilities you have gained from higher lvls when you get synced down. So you have to remember each time you get synced to a dungeons lvl, which fucking abilities work and which doesnt. Retarded system, just let the players keep their new skills but scale them down.

It's extremely unlikely for a new ip mmo to come out. The best we can hope for is some console rpg becoming big and getting a mmo based on it, like elder scrolls and final fantasy.

>>384332851
xiv is the shittiest themepark of them all

>>384333734
Remember? What? It's all right there on your hotbars.

I partly agree with being able to use high level skills, but even a level 26 gladiator is going to have a hard time keeping hate off a buffed and +50%'D Midare Setsugekka or whatever insane samurai move is. Or healers that could dps too much. They won't let it

>>384333901
>console games
>MMO format anything
Souls games took care of that for years to come

>>384327674
How many of you picked hunter based on this picture thinking you could shoot a huge fucking meteor at stuff and were sorely disappointed by their dogshit skills?

>>384334413
How many of you had to wait till 2017 for demon hunter?

>>384334413
You can barely see a fire mage in the back casting the actual fireball

>>384334541
I've been waiting since the picture in the op. Ironically enough, after all these years, I don't even want it anymore.

>>384332402
I would have the game keep track of how much you've played a certain area and base randomly harder spawns and better droprates on 'good play'.

Good play could be dying less or playing faster or whatever. Being a credit to team.

Lots of people are modding Vanilla WoW now to be classless or some other degeneracy. I'd like to be able to play through Un'Goro or SFK again and again on the same character, with the incentives scaling up slowly. You'd still want to visit everywhere, but doing a princess run shouldn't just be about getting a ring - you could work towards all the things that you worked toward on the first run, just with a smaller increment of progress each time.

>>384334130
When your muscle memory is used to going 1 2 3 4 5 6 and you remove 3 and 5 or 2 and 6

You can look on your bar for which actions doesnt work but you gotta remember the rotations, this dungeon is the no 3 and 5 rotation, this dungeon is the no 3 5 2 6 rotation

Every one tries to copy wow now and none end up being unique enough like older ones that literally let you do what ever you wanted. Closest thing now to old ones is Eve but fuck spreadsheets

>>384334772
Honestly modern F2P is on to something with their heavy lean on tradeable cosmetics. More desirable, but less functionally useful items makes for a still necessary economy and less power creep. Most MMOs have also shied away from cash sinks, leading to stupid inflation, and ultimately market stagnation that is near impenetrable to new players.

>>384327674
99% of MMOs are the same shit, or the same shit + good graphics as a selling point, they need innovation.

>>384332012
And then the multiplayer content is all fixed team size instanced corridor runs with a handholdy as hell role system. "MMORPG" hardly applies as a title anymore. They're not massive and there sure as hell isn't any role playing.

Pokemon VR mmo, you can actually trade and sell pokemons, you pretty much dedicate your life to be a pokemon master in the pokemon vr world and survive hunting pokemons.

A shiny chikorita will pay your rent for a month. You can get paid by Nintendo to be a gym master, you can actually be popular irl if you are popular in game.

>>384336040
Aren't there a million fan made Pokemon MMOs by now? Surely one of them is decent

>>384331258
Guild Wars 1 and SWG does it best. GW 1 has a low level cap, low gear cap, and it full of pvp. SWG has gear that are so so to come by but they degrade after extensive use and you need to replace it. Just add a feature that has a lot of replayablity or add degradable gear

>>384327674
>underaged kids who have no patience for grinding will constantly complain about everything
>on the other side of the spectrum, we have seasoned no-lifers who probably already mapped out everything right before day1 ended
The whole idea of "having fun and meeting people" is dead. Kids want instant gratification while no-lifers are already max leveled and preventing everybody else from catching up to them

>People who don't know shit about genre discussing how to fix it
This is why I hate /v/ mmo threads
So many people who don't even know what the fuck they are complaining about

>>384337115
O Enlightened One, we are but simple peasants. Please tell us what we must do to fix the MMO genre.

>>384327674
It's dead. Nu-males can't get into open PvP, tab-targetting, and 0.1% world boss drop rates.

>>384337293
Define "fix"
What do you want from it? Your pc growing lips everytime you start game and sucking your dick?

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needs innovation , just another wow is not going to cut it.

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im having fun

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>>384336206
You know what I want for an MMO?
A love child between rust and EVE on a grand scale.
>Have your "safespace" for all the carebears who just want to farm shitty materials.
>Limited building area, no traps, no PVP.
>put the REAL shit out in the wilderness
>Build wherever the fuck you want, ability to make your base make Sen's fortress look like a bouncy house
>PVP, raiding, all of that enabled.
>Mixed in with RPG character progression.

I want it so bad /v/, but even now I think even the most cutting edge server would shit the bed even trying to run this.

>>384337498
>tfw no dwarf race anymore
>or rat

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>>384337498

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just give this game a few thousand more players and I'll be happy

>>384337680
How did they fuck up the game anyways?

>>384337680
I would have played Planetside 2 a lot more if my PC at the time wasn't a fucking potato. Was legit fun

>>384327674
What made MMOs special was the sense of discovery and wonder. Interacting with people around the world in a game was still a new thing. Now you'll have faggots streaming it and making youtube videos showing how to do everything. Those old days aren't coming back.

I want an MMO that brings the charming exploration and immersion back. I miss death having consequences that make you think twice about playing recklessly. I miss having to ask for directions from other players because there isn't a map with a fucking arrow pointing exactly where the game encourages me to go at any given point. I just want to be dropped into an well developed setting, with minimal GUI interface and clutter, and given the tools to explore that setting freely with other players. Sadly the magic is gone and this will never happen.

>>384334824
>new mmos are too easy and boring
>"okay here's a cool way keep old content fresh"
>NO NOW I HAVE TO CHANGE MY ROTATION AND ACTUALLY REMEMBER WHICH ABILITIES DO WHAT INSTEAD OF JUST MASHING THE KEYS IN THE SAME ORDER OVER AND OVER THIS IS TOO DIFFICULT REEEEEEEEEE

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Enjoying BDO so far. I'll stay cautiosly optimistic.

>>384340662
>Enjoying f2p trash
You are the reason why genre went to shit

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>>384327674
We currently have:

>WoW
The ultimate choice if you just want "Generic MMO." This will never change,

>Guild Wars 2
More casual MMO for people that just want to take it easy.

>Elder Scrolls Online
Heaviest focus on single player content and story. Also allows for deep character building.

>Black Desert Online
Grinding/AFK game. Basically cookieclicker: MMO edition. (Nothing wrong with that. I actually enjoy this one a lot.)

The reason we don't get any new MMOs is due to the fact that the market is filled right now, and it would cost WAY to much money (We're talking the hundreds of millions) for a good studio to try and dethrone one of the front runners.

I'm sure a lot of studios WANT to make an MMO, but publishers are not going to give them the green light due to costs alone.

>>384341169
You forgot Warframe and Runescape. They cover the Instance-based MMO and Ultima clone markets.

>>384340950
It's not f2p, had to buy it for 7€ on the sale :^)
Also WoW and normies are the reason the genere went to shit.

>>384337837
The grind sucks, and the guns aren't fun enough to use to warrant the grind.

>>384341313
It is f2p in the country of origin, it means there no future for the game
and b2p model is garbage too

Too many whiners claiming everything is DOA and shitting on anything and everything for it to actually gain any traction.

Also xiv basically is the huge new mmo, like it or not.

>>384341405
>2500 millisecond global cool down

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>>384341462
>he doesn't play 1.9s ninja
It's like you WANT to be bad.

>>384341387
And why would that be?

>>384341462
>on weaponskills only

>>384341585
Are you baiting or actualy retarded?

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>>384341387
>"f2p is shit, but also if you buy it"

>>384341630
I'm not, go ahead and explain it to me.
Plenty of those games lasted much longer than some p2p MMOs (Age of Conan for example).

>>384327674
They're boring as fuck with the most uninteresting click & wait combat system.

There's nothing massively multiplayer about them.

>>384341787
Different design philosophy behind models
p2p is keeping players interested in the game(timegate is only one of methods unfortunally after eq succes became the most popular one)
f2p is milking players for as much money as possible sacrficing every game part for it
b2p normal mmo is same as a f2p but even more jewish
So, the only mmo thateven have a chance of not being garbage are the ones that have p2p model or b2p lobby pseudo mmo(guild wars, dragon's dogma online, destiny)
>Plenty of those games lasted much longer than some p2p MMOs (Age of Conan for example).
The only times AoC is still around too, it just gone f2p and startedmilking players as every f2p do

I own this, it's not bad.

>>384342348
Wrong thread sorry.

>>384342249
People serious about BDO buy value packs anyway, which ends up being like a subsciption to them anyway.

>>384327674
The next great MMO, assuming it isn't fucking WoW 2, won't even call itself an MMO. So many poisonous assumptions on what an MMO is supposed to be fuck that.

>>384334695
A lot of people wanted both pandas and demon hunters from WCIII but they fucked up the execution so damn hard

>>384327674
You're asking the wrong questions here.

>>384341284
>cover the Instance-based MMO
That's XIV

>>384327674
Give it time, OP.
WoW is finally in death throes. It'll always be around, but it's about to fall through its crumbling throne.

>>384343012
It is a shorter list to cite what WoW races are portrayed perfectly admirably than to go through the races that could've been better portrayed. What the Tauren were in concept art and WC3 compared to WoW. What the Blood Elves were in WC3 compared to how male blood elves are portrayed in WoW, etc

>>384343225
Repeated for every year since late BC, eventually in a few years you might be right. That'll show them!

>>384343225
It will take a long time for it to fully die though.

Look at CoD. It's still around and is still even incredibly popular.

>tfw no MMO with rewarding exploration, an interesting world, limitless crafting, deep and exciting combat, penalizing death, and lots of different dungeons/monsters/bosses will ever come out
>you'll never have amazing adventures with a close group of friends, train your skills together, and struggle to progress together
I've been watching too much fucking anime. It makes me yearn for something that isn't coming.

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>>384343649
Have you tried Elder Tale?
The Homesteading the Noosphere expansion drops May 9th next year.
I can't wait!

A mmo with the gameplay of a official Monster Hunter would do the trick to revive the genre
Something like frontier but in Europe

>>384344312
Monster Hunter combat is slow and limited.

Early years Vindictus was better.

>>384327674
there is Destiny 2 soon.
>inb4 muh Destiny is not a mmo reeeeeeee

>>384344125
I'm more looking forward to Glory's first expac. Hoping it's sometime next year or the year after.

>>384333901
>elder scrolls
>console RPG

At this point the cost associated with making a proper MMO is probably too high to be justified without having it cross platform across every console and PC and if its cross platform it will be absolute garbage.

I've always wanted a single shard sandbox MMO like EvE, but with playable characters. But I just can't see a company who got the talent and resources to spend years just making the back end tech to make it work.
If someone did have balls large enough to try the chances of it failing are so high that its not worth doing over another single player/multi player game on a known stable engine.

>>384344512
>slow
There's always longsword, dual swords and SnS for ADHD people like you.

Tera is coming to consoles.

>>384327674
Any big new MMOs will feel like they're lacking content when compared to the older ones which have had years of content.

>>384346173
Who cares? The game is way past it's prime and dying.
All that's left is neckbeards doing loli-ERP and fapping to elinbutt.

>>384346432
I like it. I think it's a fun game.

Then again I'm not an autistic faggot who has to have everything perfect in his games.

>>384346350
Not to mention anything that is released now has to be polished to a completely different level compared to say WoW when that launched.

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>WoW
what other game lets me completely fuck with other players in the world? where i can just sit around in the other factions main hub, gank them and stealth away to repeat the process over and over again?

>>384341169
>Also allows for deep character building
You have to pay out the ass for respecs if you want to really experiment with build options as you progress. I'm tired of this fucking meme. It's an awful game, and a blemish on the Elder Scrolls series. The 'story focused' questing is generic as can be; their are about four different voice actors not counting the ones from the main quest; the UI and animations look like something you'd find straight out of a Unity toolkit; the world is a vast copy-paste theme park with zero atmosphere. TOR actually has the best story-focused, single player, experience if that's what you're looking for in an MMO - the best customization also (animations are absolute trash though).

You will need to wait for a NEET to win a large lottery and fund it entirely out of pocket

>>384346350
Only in mom's based around content consumption. So every EQ clone.

>>384327674
i always wondered where exactly in the game world this screenshot was taken.

>>384341169
There is also Tree of Kekvior

>>384341169
What about FFXIV?

>>384347693
>Tree of Kekvior
hasn't that been a failure since launch?

>>384327674
>tfw WoW is unironically the best MMO right now
Thats enough reason to just put out of misery the genre for the next decade or more

>>384347093
A lot of long dead mmos. Wow had shit pvp

You don't want any flavor of EQ clone for a pvp mmos. The combat mechanics and classes are not designed around that

>>384346597
More power to you then.
I just don't see the point in putting a lot of effort into an MMO who's about fade into irrelevancy.

>>384341405
I can't stand weeb shit. I don't mind some anime, but FFXIV seems to absolutely relish Japanese cliches. The story is also absolute, run of the mill, bullshit. Oh look great powers, including a domineering empire with a technological advantage, fighting it out on the world stage interspersed with lots of moe shit from NPCs because lol so kawaii. No thanks, I've played FFIV, FFVI, FFVIII, FFIX and FFXII already. I don't need the same fucking narrative a sixth time over.
>b-but it gets really deep later, just skip RR and HS
It's completely insane, not to mention counter intuitive, to just skip two thirds of a story outright in an MMO where the story is supposedly one of the selling points, and even if it does somehow get good much later I'm not wading through two hundred shite story quests just to get to the good bits. The degree to which this sub par shit is stealth marketed on this board is ludicrous. Weebs honestly have zero taste.

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pantheon is my last hope

if it stinks im giving up on mmos for good

>>384327674
A new big budget MMO when everyone plays WoW and FFXIV? lol

>>384341169
wow is revamped to a point its not standard mmo anymore
every class had to become more dynamic after cata because the old method of mmos was too boring for the new overflooding of employees they were getting
league had a huge effect on wow unfortunately

>>384347814
Yes, but somehow is still alive, with literally the same content it had from launch and PvP removed from the game as a whole.
Yet the devs are shitting on the playerbase gatchas over gatchas and people fucking buy them, playing ToS now is like playing a mobbage game like GBF except GBF is a superior game

>>384348030
>when everyone plays wow? lol
fify

>>384347937
Story based mmos Will always make for bad mmos. They fundamentally from the start have each player going through some linear paths. It is a problem all quest grinders have.

You need an established static world with non consumable content that you can then advance the story of the world all at once. This is how mmos used to be. I'm surprised the concept has faded out and the only theme park alternative is seen as the sandbox which was never, in the form people imagine it, something any game was really like

>>384348214
Unfortunately moving the content or narrative of a whole world forward is much harder than adding on a new, linear zone with higher numbers everywhere

Screeching at people who think World of Warcraft is a) Bad b) Dead C) going anywhere

If you dont like it the MMORPG genre isn't not for you

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>>384348030
>everyone
>plays FFXIV

Less people playing that shit than people playing GW2, son. In fact Gw2 almost doubles its playerbase. I think you meant just WoW.

>>384348337
>if you don't like DA Inquisition RPGs are not for you

>>384348337
I for one am burned out on it after 12 years of playing.

I want something new.

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>>384327674
Play Wildstar

It's Free!

>>384348337
I played mmos for 7 years before WoW even released. I think it is a bad game. It had some nice features but it evolved the EQ model, which was already flawed in its progression model into something even worse and gutted the community aspect.

>>384348631 What features must be in a good mmorpg?

>>384343012
>A lot of people wanted both pandas
>Pandas
Fucking who wanted Panda's? Except maybe chinks.

>>384349009
People have been asking for pandas since day 1

>>384348952
Not him but
>>384348214
>>384335675
>>384332402
>>384334772
There's a fair number of ideas already in the thread.

>>384349009
This, that expac was made because of chinks, no normal human even remotely cared about pandas. It was a meme character that was barely even used in custom Wc3 maps because no one cared about furshits

>>384334772
Wait who's been modding vanilla wow? That sounds like fun.

>>384349110
Nobody did that you breaindead retard

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>Dofus 2 is being worked on.

Dofus is the only MMO I can think of that has not completly lost his soul and is being worked on in the right way.
Sadly the game has glaring issues from being old. On some server not max lvl ppl are underrepresented.
They successfully created a server (Agride) that has a perfect ecosystem tho so hope is not lost. Servers are being merged atm.
Sadly the english/international community is far from being as active as the french one. On top of that we (french) can't join it without a VPN.

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>Only worthwhile MMO is XI
>too socially awkard to do endgame stuff with linkshell
>Confused as what to prioritize and do once you're max level

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>>384344125
>Author is in jail
Season 3 never

>>384349461

Knowing Ankama, however, it's gonna hit 99999 delays and wind up with
>release date 2021
In which time everyone will have forgotten about it and its mechanics will be outdated and stale, making it dead a week after, like Wakfu was.

So what does WoW need to be good again?

Enemies that scale with level?
Actual story between factions? and not just "big bad ebil must work 2gether!"
Quests that give decent items again instead of just gold and stat sticks?

Some new abilities are fun but I don't really like how they are trying to make all classes feel samey like they did with D3. Most classes can now heal, most have a cheat death, most have a movement ability. Shit just feels weird.

plus they should just add secret hard mode bosses to older dungeons. Gnomer was pretty fun.

They really need to stop trying to make player housing garrison shit. Class halls in legion feel underused besides checking your timer quests and caches. Seems like a lot of wasted dev time that could've been put into making the new areas/raids better of making Dalaran have more shit to do

>>384336592
I think this guy is right
entire appeal of mmos "dude there are other people omg!" is dated as fuck
devs need to offer something new

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>>384349461
Correction:
>Dofus 3 is in development
A complete new MMO by Ankama.

>>384349461
>On top of that we (french) can't join it without a VPN
Thank god for that. Not that i hate french but back then when i played it. It was hard to find english speaking players. I met a lot of people who speak either italian or french and none of them speak english

>>384341787
A better explanation would be...
Money.
The whole industry revolution es around it, now think from a dev teams perspective "what earns us money and gets us more of it?" For most f2p and b2p games the money is micro transactions that consist of mostly cosmetic items, so when random dev team member 8 sits down at his desk and starts his days work even if creating story rich and cutting edge content is what he wants to do, some fraction of his day had to be focused on creating hats...
A p2p model makes and keeps on making money as long as it draws in and keeps players, so when anyone comes to work their goal is to make content that does that. There's no chance that it gets put on the back burner to work on hats...

>>384349738
I am not sure anymore but their model will always be
>create new zones
>create new dungeons
>create new raids
>make fresh taletns/skills
>repeat every expansion

MMOs were always grind treadmills. When companies like RiotGames realized they could make the rats run on the treadmills in "MOBA"s and jew the shit out of people it was literally the beginning of the end of MMOs

>>384349828
>A complete new MMO
It's going to be WoW clone huh.

>>384349934
but top 2 moba is totally free to play. everything is literally fucking free except shitty hats.

>>384349828

Yeeeah, as said. Expect it never.

>>384327674
No, passion is.
It's hard to enter the market and 99% of game devs only care about money now.
Games made with soul like runescape don't get made any more..

>>384327674
My only hope is that chronicles of elyria turns out good, granted its a kickstarter so yeah, i'm not too hopeful.

>>384349738

They need to start from scratch, there's so many things wrong that things could only be fixed by starting from zero. The classes need to be unique but not outright useless like they were in vanilla, I have no doubt paladins were designed with someone holding a grudge.

>>384348952
There are different kinds of mmos so the answer might not be exact. Its more a list of concepts and principals a good mmo will adhere to.

1. Group based progression.
I am not strictly anti soloing, but grouping needs to be the primary way people progress. This solves many problems. A good balance for this can be seen looking back on DAoC and CoX, where grouping was much faster, but you could solo.
It shouldnt just be that grouping increases the exp intake while you 'solo next to each other' as most modern day 'group grinding' is done in mmos. Fast paced role based group grinding like pbaoe groups can be fun and exhilarating, but other methods such as the rythmic cc+debuff->attack chain sort of playstyle can also feel rewarding. Ultimately combat has to feel rewarding to players, which i will go into when i cover combat systems.

2. The main content needs to be repeatable, not consumable.
Filler quests, 'zone quest arcs', and on off quests in general being the primary exp source does not work well with group progression, you need everyone to be at the same stage of their content consumption. As i mentioned above the primary method of simple progression would be grinding. This does not mean you can not have specific tasks a group may set out to accomplish though. Repeatable things like bounty boards or simple drops that can be turned in to specific npcs for rewards can provide extra incentive. Always the goal is to give players things to look forward to. So with that in mind, the game could have factions you join which issue certain progression requirements you try to complete, and some of the quests are based on ranking up with them, or having class progression quests. But the built in 'one off' content you do should be very limited. There is no need to clutter a world up with that, diversity and purpose can come from other places.
[cont]

>>384349659
>mechanics will be outdated and stale
What? It should already be the case game is so old.

>Wakfu is dead
Wakfu is very special. I see it as some kind of playground test where they'd try unique mechanics and design.
For exemple: realistic ressources that could run out and maintained by players.

Sure thing Ankama doesn't work enough on communicating internationally even tho they could reach more players.

>>384350003
>everything is literally fucking free
LoL isn't. You gained like 100ip-250ip per games and some popular heroes have upward cost of 6300ip. That would take roughly around 24-63 games to get a single hero. You required runes too and they do scale like %health, %lifesteal and so on and they cost roughly 4800 to 6300 for level 3. If you are playing without a single cent for 3-4 hours everyday, it will take you upward a month or 2 to gain 2-3 heroes and runes to accompany them.

Why aren't you cunts talking about Albion Online? It's literally a day from release and will be a open world sandbox MMORPG with actual death, heavy focus on economy, building towns, guild wars, etc.

It's not perfect but it's the closest we're getting to a new Ultima-esque MMORPG that goes beyond copying WoW.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKb8NPs5YDY

>>384337115
C-cleve?

>>384350313
>buy to play
>subscription fee
>microtransactions
begone jew

>>384337526

There is dark fall, but its not really filled with shit most of the time.

>>384350313
>you have to pay before you can experience it
nah thanks. If i want to chop a wood for 3 weeks, i would do it in runescape

>>384349981
>WoW clone
It's not even a 3D MMO.

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>>384350313
>Shilling some guy who got paid to make a shill video
>Microtransactions

>>384350275
I played LoL in 2010-2011 so I know how grindy it is. I'm talking about dota that offers you everything right off the bat. I have no idea why people bother with grindfest called LoL when you have dota.

>>384350313
>top-down view
>sandbox
>actual deth guys so rad
>eye-bleedingly ugly
>microtransactions AND upkeep fees AND b2p

This is why, anon.
The fact we dislike how MMOs have turned out mechanically doesn't mean we have lost all of our standards on how something must be to not be a steaming pile of garbage, which this is.

>>384349738
Need to start again.

>>384350264
3. Diversity and purpose of areas.
Simply put different areas should have different kinds of enemies, which are well suited for different groups. There should be ample locations so that players do not develop optimized groups full stop, but rather any group composition can find a location with the correct kinds of mobs for those players to most efficiently play in that group comp. It is important to allow for such flexibility, because the goal of any group-based game is to make the actual group composition as free as possible with out destroying class uniqueness. You do this having mobs with very distinct strenghts and weaknessess for groups to match up their own to.

4. Class focus.
The game should be class based. This is important because class identity adds another level onto the game. Since area based progression as consumable content has been cut out, class based identity progression can fill some of the slack and give you enough consumable content to fell like there is some special purpose for you in the world.
What you can do with a class focus is create areas tailor made for specific classes. As i mentioned earlier, the ability to solo is important, even if grouping is the focus. You can accomplish this with out sacrificing the integrity of a system that really encourages grouping by making areas for specific classes to solo in. A healer for example may have undead to fight which are weak to their otherwise low damage. A rogue may have some stealthy mazes or dungeons where their goal is to sneak in and pick locks and loot things and avoid actual combat. Mages may have portals to elemental plains where they are able to customize their abilities and equipment around very specific enemies and thus min/max fully to exploit that environment beyond what is possible for good play in the normal world. Possibilities for class-specific content to enhance the flavor of your class is endless. It is important that class is an identity. [cont]

>>384350447
they most likely bought into LoL and feel like their money is wasted if they leave. I know my friends have all returned to it. They rage a ton in discord every 4/5 games, I'm not sure how they even enjoy it desu. I made my account super early on and still have most old skins like bowser ramus and ufo corki but that game is just not fun to play. I get more enjoyment out of HotS because its just easier to play and games are pretty quick. Plus I haven't really ran into the rage babies that pretty much are in every league game.

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you fags all complain about MMOs but the fact is that you simply don't have the patience to commit yourselves to one of them again. Just accept that you grew out of this genre and move on instead of this endless complaining.

The genre is doing just fine, people have plenty of options to find their niche and be happy with it, the only one who refused to change was you, anon.

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>>384350275

>3-4 hours everyday, it will take you upward a month or 2 to gain 2-3 heroes and runes to accompany them.

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>>384327674
Because WoW just kills them all

The world's most perfect MMORPG could come out but everyone would just go back to WoW like they always do

WoW KILLED MMOS

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>>384350894
This,
I can still have fun in WoW, there was a time after Trial of the crusader after been playing since vanilla and doing raiding since start of Wrath that I didn't find the time or enjoyment to play, then I took a break until late Pandaria and came back to play casually until Hellfire citadel and been enjoy mythic raiding since, even more so than Ulduar days

>>384350708
5. Combat has to be fun
The main elements that make combat fun is
a. Pacing. Combat can not be drawn out. It needs to have a rythm to it with a payoff. The payoff should come in bursts to encourage players to look forward to the next rush of exp/drops.
b. Synergistic interaction. In a group based game you really want a system where players have to do some mild strategy. It is important not to overdo it, in a group grinding game you dont want people to become mentally fatigued, but rather you want their minds to have to look at and aknowledge the situation. The kinds of strategies should be fairly easy such that any normal situation a group of experienced players know what to do automatically. This will lead to each player doing their dynamic job in the situation, and satisfaction when everyone works togeather as a team - the feeling that makes playing group games so rewarding to start with. This will compound with the exp payoff from section a, resulting in a burst of satisfaction and reward, making the player feel...
c. lack of tedium
... like they are looking forward to doing it again. Like a slot machine, one more pull should be easy for someone to desire.

There are multiple ways to accomplish this. I mentioned already pbaoe grouping, where a tank goes out and rounds up large number of mobs and brings it back for massive aoe spam. There are also cc and debuff setup combined with massive single target attacks. It depends on whether you want an aoe game or a more single target focused on. The important thing in any case is that there is no kill like overkill. Players enjoy obliterating things, so it is much better to have a setup and knockdown rythm to your grinding than a constant dull drone.

[cont]

>>384350996
ff14 established itself despite WoW

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>>384350313
>Studio based in Berlin, Germany
No thanks, Ahmed

>>384337526
I got my mmo fps fix with ark. When they opened all servers together my tribe swelled to around 300 players and our alliance in total has about 1500 or so controlling tons of servers.

>>384351237

It didn't, though. It's a barely niche title only played by anime fans. Stormblood didn't even show up in the top 40 sales for PC videogames on its release. In japan.
It's just there as an alternative to the low common denominator, but that's about it.

>>384351063
6. World progression
The idea of an mmo is to capture the feeling of existing in another reality. To this end the world must have a sense of progression.
Unlike modern mmos which are still carrying out a system which was thrown togeather due to the necessity of sharding (multiple servers) the game world, we now have mmos with single megaservers and can return back to the old style of story progression where there is only one story, it can be partially player-directed through their own actions in events.

Fundamentally the idea is to set up a fairly static world that you can then do things with. These can be minor things like 'monster invasion' events, or they can be meaningful story impacting things like war between multiple npc factions, and players pick sides, and suddenly everywhere is a pvp zone. The fundamental difference is that this turns the old familiar places into new places, and gives them a sense of evolving. In the modern system places are static and you just move to new places. The technique of phasing changed the feeling of this slightly, but if you made a new character and played through it... it was the same again, for someone who was not at your stage of progression, it had not yet changed. under the old system you may level through an area during one stage of the worlds story and someone else may progress at a later date and have a different experience, because that part of the world is fundamentally different now.

This actually has the side effect of lowering the number of areas you need. Remember, as a grinding game you need densely packed areas to return to, not sprawled out zones to progress through.

The saga of the world as it evolves can be guided by players. The aforementioned war can have a victor. A failure of players to complete some objective and stop an eldritch abomination can totaly obliterate a city, etc.

This is distinctly different from the modern 'sandbox' concept [cont]

>>384350447
>top 2 moba
so i assumed you meant LoL and dota2.

>I have no idea why people bother with grindfest called LoL when you have dota.
because the cover art is very child friendly despite they are not representing the real model. The game has much faster pace. Every skills scale with you and items so you can feel powerful.
>smaller map than dota
>items are much cheaper, golds are easy to get
>buildings are dead within seconds because magic damage and attack damage contribute to structural damage)
In short, it is very easy to get into meanwhile dota2 requires you to know which skill is scaling which isn't. A lot of skills have unique interaction. Items often do not directly affect your skills damage. Dota2 requires a lot of time investment and i am still haven't talked about warcraft 3 elements they brought over like day/night, high terrain vision, denying, big unit collision so you can block units and so on.

I really wish they made dota2 imba as official map so people could just have fun without memorizing all the nifty shits that make the game complex and unfun for casual shitters.

>>384349862
BDO is f2p and updates have been adding content consistently.
Also don't pretend WoW hasn't been doing all that cosmetic shit for years now.

>>384350447
Because you need a 100 hours in Dota to not be a total liability and actually need to learn things.
LoL is much simpler.

>>384351542
In the modern sandbox content the devs just throw you in and hope player intrigue and conflict develop out of this. Classical mmos were never like this. They were player-influenced but GUIDED. This sort of system will allow for much more dramatic changes. In the modern sandbox concept players can never really hope to do more than swing back and forth perpetually in their power struggles, in a guided world progression the world can fundamentally change, and develop a history that is visible and livable and has consequences for all.

7. What is endgame anyway
I would argue that classic mmos (pre EQ) had no endgame, you accumulated power and yes, at some point you were considered to have 'arived' at some stage that entitled you to be counted among the noteworthy people, but the modern concept that you progress along one system of progression up to a point and then instantly shift over into an entirely different advancement paradigm did not exist. Its always bothered me that people have this ingrained idea that that is how you do it, that you level cap and then gear grind along an infinite gear treadmill (artificially capped by the rate at which content can be created).

There is no need for this. It may interest some to know there have been totaly capless mmos, and they have worked just fine. Certainly there are concerns over this model and it may not be right for every game, but this illustrates how diverse mmo 'endgame' models of the past have been.

This is one of those things that will depend heavily on the game. If it is a pvp game then you will want to have a more absolute cap at which you can participate in pvp and cant just become strong enough to single handedly solo an entire enemy faction. If its a pve based game then you may not care about that and might want players to get absurdly powerful. It can and has worked, and i would argue is good for the games community as well, to have certain players that are recognized as being powerful. [cont]

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Anyone else gonna try wild west online mmo? I bought special edition because I'm a fucking sucker for cowboys, and I pray every night to God himself that it won't suck ass.

I've been hurt so many times prepruchasing MMOs but I don't care.
they're not paying me to shill I just really want other anons to buy it so it doesn't die

>>384352058
>I pray every night to God himself that it won't suck ass.
hah. have fun playing alone with a bot.

>>384350894
/thread

>>384352008
As for what the exact nature of progression is. There is no need to stop exp/level progression arbitrarily. You can continue to have people level untill the cap you want. There needs be no secondary gear grind even. If you want a crafting based game then gear obtainment may be much more trivial. For a pvp game having gear disparity may not be desirable. You can see DAoC with its involved craft system which resulted in everyone having good customized gear for themselves. This would certainly be desirable if you wanted a game with pvp and a crafting focus. For a game where gear disparity is not as much a concern you can choose to have a gear grind but i encourage you to consider not doing it, because gear grinding is a form of RNG, and i really dont like RNG.

8. RNG should be kept at a minimum
This means no korean style enhancement lotteries. Ideally rare drops are not to be required, and i much favor gear obtained through crafting or other guaranteed means

Fundamentally in a game that limits itself by grinding you need to be fair to players. If you ask them to put in time, you need to more or less tell them that their time will be compensated for in progression. Part of what makes a good grinding game work, as covered before, is that there is that payoff which, if paced properly acts as an incentive to keep going and makes time fly as you collect all your multitudes of dopamine rushes. You could for example, even at the level cap, have players grind exp, and then use that exp to improve their gear. You would do this particularly if you wanted gear to be degradable to support a craft economy. Otherwise you could let players just pump their stats indefinitely.
[cont]

>>384350894
No, the problem is that if you commit to an MMO these days you run out of content too fast

I hate PvP but let me tell you, minus goy-fu p2w fags, Age of Wushu is pretty legit and is still my second favorite f2p MMO. (The first was ROSE in days of peak population)

>>384352437
9.Tanks are newbies
The tank (agro controlling) is the newest mmo archetype. It exists because in early 3d mmos the older isometric strategies to keep battles under control were not as fluid, and so almost as a quick fix to the problem the tank archetype (and arguably the entire agro system) was introduced.
I bring this up simply to remind you that you dont need to have all the mmo archetypes. Its a refined system that does work, and truly if you were making a 3d mmo from the first or third person perspective i would say its safest just to stick with this, theres nothing wrong with it. But do consider for an isometric perspective mmo, you can use positioning and collision detection and CC to protect party members, for example. Just be mindful other options exist.

10. Group interaction and challenge.
Ive mentioned how classess should be unique and have identity, and how players should interact in some synergystic/strategic way, but now id like to compare what i see as the modern formula with some older ones, just to illustrate how things have changed.

Currently i would say roles are hyper specialized, to the point that players just brute force the system. A DPS' main and only goal is to do as much damage as possible. Tanks in many modern mmos dont even really generate agro, they just have forced taunts. Healers likewise dont have to worry about managing resources like they used to. Other support archetypes are simply removed form the equation (As a historical note: The 'holy trinity' of the eq era was tank-healer-CC. The trinity was what you needed to start a group, once you had the trinity you could just get any old trash to fill out the remaining slots).[cont]

>>384352437
Good thing I saw this post first and didn't read others
Another retarded newfag who never played any mmo but still shits tons of texts about how to fix it

>>384350313
>changing gear changes your class
Fuck that shit.

>>384350313
>no sub
Game belongs to the trash bin

>>384352881
Things are rather dumbed down in this regard, and as a result simple fights against simple enemies are often derogatorily called 'tank and spank'. The challenge of modern encounters then has to be artificially scripted in. Red things not to stand in, locations to go to and activate some enviornmental object, etc. The overall feeling is that the traditional roles are almost on auto-pilot and the gameplay revolves around positioning. It has to because with out these scripted gimmick mechanics the base class interaction is just not interesting.

In contrast, in the mid era of mmo, the fight was something that could be done static in place and still maintain interest. This is because the challenge was in how you managed your resources and the situation, not in where you stood. DPS for example, could easily pull agro. Doing as much damage as possible was not the DPS job, the DPS job was to do as much damage as you could with outpulling agro. In the time before agro meters it really came down to the personal skill and experience of the player to judge what they could get away with, and planning around recovering from accidental agro pulls was important. Classes had skills to deal with this. Agro resets, agro drops, emergency taunts, etc. Managing agro was a group-involved activity, not just a button the tank pushed.
Likewise the resource pools tended to be tighter as well. Things like the healer having to very efficiently use their heals, not over heal, try to optimize regen. The whole system was based around micromanaging your resource expenditure and your place on the threat list. Likewise you had more dedicated buffer and debuffer classes who, depending on the game, had to strategically manage their abilities, or could just apply them with out much thought.
[cont]

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>>384353126
Until MMOs break the theme park blueprint that WoW forced on them with it's success, there won't be long lived highly played MMOs ever again.

Even the original WoW, despite it being the definition of theme park, had some non-theme park like aspects to it which it slowly purged over the expansions into what it is now.

You have to let PLAYERS create content for the game. That can be done in lots of ways from wars, to forcing random interactions, to even changing the game scape with buildings. It's why a boring ass game like EVE will always have players, because the game is driven by player content.

No developer has the resources to support all the content themselves. Even Blizzard BARELY has the resources to support making all the content themselves.

>>384352196
s-stop

>>384349738
A fresh start on a new engine is at the top of the list.

>>384352058
Isn't the con-dev behind WarZ/Infestation, Shattered Skies and Big Rigs behind that game?

>>384327674
Three reasons.
>has to live up to the WoW standard, which eats other mmos for breakfast
>has a rocky start with poor implementation which hurts it's fanbase numbers in the long run
>either tries something experimental or apes the WoW formula to the degree of being the same thing with a new skin
And a reason to grow on
>MMOs tend to use grind to ended out gameplay time which leads most downplay for a bit before going back to the one they've invested the most time in

>>384353917
>ther tries something experimental
Name a single MMO that has tried this without naming one that is also a WoW clone

>>384353768
I just looked into it out of fear, does not appear they're related to those devs at all.

>>384354157
Planetside and Planetside 2.

>>384352953
Ive been playing mmos since before they were called MMOs If you have an actual issue with what im saying feel free to bring it up, but its probably rooted in your being locked into your way based on some game you played when the genre had already been narrowed by UO or EQ, (or wow)s commercial successes.

>>384353340
And then we get to the earlier days, which are much more varied. Ive seen games where the purpose of the warrior archetype was damage and mild CC and the rogue was the primary CC class using traps. Ive seen games where the main strategy involved CC and geometric pattern attacks similar to what you would get in a turn based strategy game, some quite elaborate where the order in which mobs were hit by the aoe pattern multiplied the damage of the next hit in sequence such that mob positioning for optimal damage was very important. Things like this could be tedious but had immense satisfaction when it all worked out.. There are just too many possibilities here, and while some specific gimmicks might be fun to thrown in, though ive played older systems that worked just fine, i might advise someone to stick to the mid or current era mechanics in general

11, Axioms
As im starting to get tired ill just run off a list of things.
-- A game in which rolling alts gives you an advantage has fundamentally failed at the task of being a virtual world. Alts should only ever be because you want to play something else.

-- pvp in mmos is best done on the large scale, it is an mmo after all. The best mmo pvp is probably 3 way RVR, followed by guild vs guild where the guilds hold teritory. Open world pvp is never going to carry an mmo as a pvp game, it can only ever be secondary. Its main advantage is it prevents people from locking into hyper specialized pve-centric builds and makes them consider gank resistance, but with proper class design you can prevent hyper specialization if you desire.
[cont]

>>384354217
Yeah read up on it and they are at least using Sergey Titov's engine which he uses for all his shitty games but they deny that he is actually working on the Wild West Online game so there might just be some hope

>>384350264 >>384350708 >>384351063 >>384351542 >>384352008 >>384352437 >>384352881 >>384353340 >>384354598
Thank you for your answer very much! <3

>>384352953
What's your criticism of that post?

>>384354598
-- Bound items are stupid, use item degredation in a craft based system. If you want exclusive items make them extreemly rare drop chance, only slightly better than crafted, and unbound. The goal here is to provide items that can develop a reputation in game as they change hands. It adds to the communal sense

-- megaserver or bust, sharding is terrible

--You dont need mounts, you want an efficient compact world. Mounts either let players with them move too fast or players without them move too slow.

--Do not implement multiple steps of refinement of craft materials unless you are developing a very involved economy. Raw materials into the finished product is just fine if you are intending players to gather their own materials.

-- Make sure there are things new players can farm that older players want to buy. You dont have to worry about inflation as much as long as newbies can always earn the same relative money on the market

-- For gods sake do not let people make slider abominations.

-- Be very mindful of how important you make guilds. Drawing people out of their guild microcosm will improve the games overall health. Guild-centricity is part of what keeps pugs so awful, pug didnt even used to be a concept, it was just the normal group in an mmo, 'guild groups' were the unique novel exception

-- players play for power, for epeen, that is the reason. Even semingly more virtuous ambitions only mask this. Explorers accumulate knowledge so they can flaunt it, socializers get lots of friends so they can be popular. All of these things simply add power, no different from a stat on a character sheet. All is grind

-- If the game is failing, add waifus.

This is all i can think of. I started playing mmos in 1997 and have nolifed since then. I estimate i have over 40 thousand hours /played. Ive spent much of that time wondering why. These are some of the insights my meditations have delivered while grinding, confirmed in conversations with other grinders.

>>384354718
Oh okay, I didn't know about all that. I was just looking into the companies and developers and shit.

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THE GENRE WAS ALWAYS DEAD

WOW IS THE ONLY EXCEPTION

Before WoW, the record for concurrent MMO subscriptions was like 200k. Anything with an active player count of six digits was doing very well.

Then WoW came out and suddenly were dealing with numbers in the millions. Years later they're past 10 million, and everyone's trying so hard to be the next WoW that anything with a six digit playercount or less is deemed a flop. Even Tortanic passed 1m.

>>384356414
Another retard like >>384354598

>>384356536
Name one thing incorrect about my post aside from the sensationalist attention grabbing allcaps it started with

>>384337680
It's over, man. I'm surprised it held on as long as it did.

>>384348337
Even if you fucking love WoW, it's objectively at least 2 of those.

>>384347874
>wow had shit PvP
Not true at all. 2.4.3 was a great patch PvP wise and so was 3.3.5 and 5.4.1. It went absolutely down hill with WoD and Legion killed it.

>>384327674
Is too much of an investment and risk whenn you could just make the latest meme gnere in one year as create as many revenue as an mmo would have during the first year.

>>384344512
I'm enjoying Rise update Vindictus way more than old Vindictus, I just wish they didn't regulate hard mode to level cap because normal mode bosses are braindead easy on certain characters (I.E. Arisha, Kai, etc). I guess that's a payoff for removing level grind completely from the game.

>>384355658
>megaserver or bust, sharding is terrible
Dosn't really work with those player numbers.
I find the "channel compromise" to be good enough.
>mounts
There's nothing wrong with mounts if done correctly. What bothers me are things like flightmasters which basically "remove" a player from the world just to put him back onto another part of the world some time later. Make players travel there by themself (ot at least some sort of automatic navigation).

>>384355658
So is it safe to assume horizontal progression is something you enjoy?

>>384337526

didnt the conan mmorpg do that?

>>384332012
The irony being that on one hand, games where you really socialize and all are the best MMOs.

Yet on the other hand me personally, I feel like I'm too old for that whole "try hard and join a guild, be social and put effort into making online friends" thing.

im honestly amazed whenever a ff14 thread pops up (multiple times every day). the same people who are against paid dlc like that shitty game even though the devs intentionally put up time walls that require you to sub for multiple months to finish the content. what a shit system

>>384357851
>channel
Can work alright.

I should add, in a megaserver game the question of player identity comes up. You have some totaly stupid systems like unique player identifiers AND unique player names.

Nothings worse than names being taken, so my solution would be a PSO inspired system of just giving people friend numbers and letting them name themselves whatever they want

>mounts
The issue with mounts is that i dont like the way it skews player perception. Every time i say mounts cause later areas to have a lot more empty space people just dont understand. Its like they dont realize in games with mounts early areas are based around not having mounts, and later ones are based around having them, and the actual travel time sink is maintained. For a game that focuses more on compact reusable areas it doesnt work quite so well.

Having mounts is not a problem if you really want them, but i want to combat the idea that they actually add anything but an animation. Travel time is going to remain constant via map design considerations.

I guess it is fair that in a pvp game this changes some, you can have skills unusable on mounts (or mount skills) to add extra tactical consideration.

I guess my advise is not to add mounts because 'its an mmo right its gotta have mounts :^)'

Do things because you know why you are doing them.

>>384358290
what's wrong with horizontal progression? better than having all your gear get outdated every new content update

>>384358290

>>384358290
I like all kinds of progression. My favorite system really is endless vertical progression, but that can only work with very specific game types, and i like it mostly because it actually works despite everyone whos not experienced games doing it properly imagining it would be horrible. There is a great social sense when you can point to one person and say they are, with out a doubt, the absolute strongest of their class in the game and they could wipe the floor with almost everyone else. I have seen many year leads surpassed by newbies.

In general horizontal progression is the safest bet. Particularly if you are depending on reusable content, as the game progresses you add new alternatives instead of new replacements, which makes the game experience more robust.

The thing with mmos is that i view mmo as more of a platform. Its about having a persistent online world you share with other people. In a pvp rich mmo you really want to focus around the pvp interactions, so strict power progression would be a negative in most cases.

The thing is power placement. Modern mmos are upside down triangles, people progress to the top and accumulate there at different speeds untill something happens to raise the power cap.

Early mmos were regular triangles. The top was very empty, progression was unlimited. Whether it be truly unlimited or a harsh soft cap like lineage (1) had. Lineage 1 is a good example actually, its a pvp centric game with technically uncapped vertical progression, but it worked out because the way its exp and power curves were designed.

Some form of progression is always required. In a more or less stable and capped pvp centric game you still want to give people ranks to grind, even if its just for titles, showing you are important, and meaningful, and basically justifying the time you have spent, is attractive in an mmo.

>>384349738
Just make WoW 2, forget about salvaging the bloated monstrosity that is current WoW

>>384350313
>buy to play
>no trial
>visually looks like a 2005 game, zero effort put into it
>forces you to guild up or you won't be able to do shit

>>384337680

its over man. the chinks have taken it over.

>>384358914
Remember, gear doesnt have to be the primary progression mechanism. You can have vertical progression while maintaining the same gear. Just use an EQ style AA system where you raise stats or unlock new skills or something.

The first mmo i ever played gear eventually became more or less for show players became so powerful.

Being drunk with power is an effective hook.

>>384359272
people like playing dress up simulator though.

i never played EQ, can you raise your stats by grinding endlessly or do you have to kill specific raid bosses?

>>384359396
>people like playing dress up simulator though.
When you are so powerful you can wear whatever you want, you can wear whatever you think looks best.

EQ is the progression system most people are familiar with, you grind to a level cap and then enter a gear obtainment grind via raiding. It did, however, have AA, alternate advancement, which was basically points you would grind and place into new abilities and skills.

It could honestly be seen as a precursor to the wow style class trees you have. it had passives and some active skills. Since otherwise everything else about a class was identical, this was the form of customization you took, but the thing is it piled on at the end (after the game had been out a while), and so it functionally acted as a 'continued level grind' once it came out.

It was similar to daocs realm point system where you earned rps in pvp and spent them on abilities.

Of course both of these are capped. Ive played truly uncapped games where the strongest character was orders of magnitude more powerful after grinding for years upon years. But as i mentioned above, ive then seen that person surpassed by a newbie. So the concern of 'too late', even in an uncapped game, is not really well founded, people burn out or quit. It simulates life.

>>384358739
>>384359067
Thank you for your autism, and I would like to add that the problem with mounts creating empty content is the same problem with mounts and vehicles in open world games in general.

can I get Exteel back please?
I really enjoyed that game, like I even continued playing that game despite my index finger gangrened.
Shit was so cash

>>384359665
having specific gear allows you to spot shitters quicker though. i cant even count the number of times when i went to an exp party in (mmo) and the leader invited some scrub. i would pull my internet out so they think i lost connection and they would replace me :^)

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I just want to play maplestory for the first time again.

Also i just decided to install BDO, what should i expect?

>>384359665
>EQ is the progression system most people are familiar with
Im going to sleep now but I should clarify. When i say its the progression system most people are familiar with, i dont mean EQ uses that system, it invented it.

Thats what an EQ clone is
- gear based endgame progression
- raiding
- agro management based group combat

Thats an EQ clone. People would consider that to be fundamental mmo stuff.

WoW is an EQ clone. A WoW clone is an EQ clone with the things WoW added to that fundamental formula
- solo questgrinding to level
- instanced dungeons

So when people call something a WoW clone, they are correct, almost all modern mmos are WoW clones. Those are not fundamental mmo concepts, they are fundamental EQ/WoW clone concepts.

The problem is this is all most of the mmo playerbase knows, so it becomes very difficult to advocate some other mechanic, even mechanics proven to work, because people just try to shove them into a mental simulation where everything else is locked in exactly the way eq/wow did it, and it doesnt work.

Telling someone whos only played WoW clones that grinding is fun, for example, will be met with hostility. Grinding in WoW and its clones is not fun, so to them you have just said something false.

>>384360260
>spot shitters
In the old days if you were a moron nobody would group with you and you would never make it to a high enough level to cause anyone trouble. Now its all about ensuring you milk as much money from everyone, so those people have to succeed too.

Well, good night /v/, its 7 am

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>2017
>still no MMO's out where you can play a full body dragon
WHY?!

>>384338497
So true <3

>>384327674
It's all mobile grinding now.

>>384338497
because its more profitable to cater to the kids who want to say they're playing an mmo, but it's really just a single player game where you can lobby with others once in a while.

any game that has a dungeon finder option for doing the endgame content is cancer that killed off what used to be the standard for a MMO

>>384358572
I casually play ffxiv and never hit a wall, but I just started heavensward, where is it?

>>384350313
Played this in one of the early betas the game had. At first i was alone, but you really cant make it alone so i joined a guild, it got raped by one of the big guilds, so it disbanded, joined another guild, that guild joined one of the big guilds. Basicly you need to be in a big ass guild or you will get raped constantly, at the end of the beta everybody was in a few big guilds and the leaders of the guilds and their few officers were gods. Its basicly a dictatorship simulator where if you dont agree with the guild master of whatever big guild you join you will be thrown out and the game becomes unplayable. Its also infuritating when the guild master and his officers have crafters in the guild make the best possible gear people could get at the time and then just runs after another guild alone for the LOLZ and then loses the gear, then just go grab some new gear in the guild bank that some poor minion had spent time on making.

Yes i am salty and everybody who isnt a complete bitch will stop playing the game after some streamer makes the big ass guild of twelve year olds and destroys everybody

>>384361975
>can only do dungeon once a week
>requires like 8 clears of dungeon to get the gear from it
there's your wall. the biggest cock slap ever and people eat it up still lmao

>>384327674
Costs too much and requires too much effort. Also consumers expect too much

>>384361102
dragonfags need to be gassed

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>No cyberpunk MMO
>No wild west MMO
>Only pirate MMO died horribly
>no mafia MMO
>no Matrix MMO anymore
Why?

>>384361102
Well, Neverwinter Nights' persistent worlds are basically budget MMOs, and you can play as a druid that spends 90% of the time as a full body dragon. I'm sure there is some hidden ERP PW that lets you play as an actual dragon.

>>384341169
You forgot TOR.

why is there no sense of community in any mmo nowadays?

back in ~2006 or so when I was playing FFXI it always felt like your local hometown type of thing... most people knew x player because he was super rich, or they knew x linkshell because they are the most successful etc etc... you kind of had to communicate with all the other players so you werent overlapping on your raid times. whether you like the open world raid boss fights or not isnt the point. I just have never experienced a sense of community in another MMO since then

>>384362549
>No wild west MMO
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-16t_YH7B_c

>>384362671
What are the odds this will

1. come out
2. Not be shit

Indie MMO just seems impossible to me, but maybe it'll work if it's all sandbox and 0% of the open world is desert and plains.

>>384344582
This.

>>384362671
scam

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDY6z2W-qjQ

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>>384362419
ITS NOT FAIR

>>384341169
>lists 4
>calls the market filled

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OSRS is the only MMO worth putting time into.

>>384362990
Takes way too much time to get to why he thinks it's a scam.

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>>384362990
>Literally the guy who made big rigs

>>384331652
>this applies to ordinary single player rpgs too.

Single player rpgs have a story

>>384327674

Why can't a huge new anything come out?

Seriously, when was the last time a game of the quality of something like Ocarina of Time came out?

>>384327783
Is that what replaced king of the hill as the "new" mmo joke threads since 4chan has been void of humor and originality for the last 5 years?

>>384362670
Because autistic fags spammed MMO forums with "is this game solo-friendly?" and "what is the best solo class/build?" topics, and devs noticed that theses fags probably have a lot of money to waste (since they have no reason to leave their houses), possibly more than the original target audience.

>>384363789
DESU I always played characters that could solo. Why? Because I want to play when I can play.

All classes should be able to solo in an mmo. Why would I want to play a class where, if the game is fairly dead or it's an odd hour, I may actually be unable to play because they are unable to complete content.

>>384363636
Nobody wants to bet AAA levels of cash on crazy new ideas.
IT's either "huge thing" or "new thing", can't have both.

>>384327674
People try new things and it ends up being worse, let it be art direction, design of raids, etc. One of my biggest problems is somehow every MMO post WoW can't make the movement feel as fluid as WoW.

Where's my MMO where leveling takes months and the game has mid leveling raids for gear to allow you to solo level easier?

>>384327674
Because developers aren't willing to take risks.

I wish we got an MMO that tried to make a "world" that actually worked. Even if it ends up being "huge and boring" in terms of the game world. You shouldn't expect to come across treasure every 5 minutes of walking in a forest.

>>384363864
you're the type of person who ruined MMOs.
>buy game of a genre that requires making friends and grouping for nearly everything
>complain when you have to group up
you could have just simply not bought the game, but instead you did and decided to be vocal about it to the devs because they're racist for not including people who don't like group play

>>384328120
>hey, lets make another worthless themepark where 90% of the content is worthless when you reach max level.
This is what I don't understand. Why the fuck do they spend so much effort on making all the low level content and then never use it again?

Rotate high level areas around. Make monsters migrate and evolve.

There's so much that could be done with the content they already have, but they just never do.

>>384350313

First you got to buy the game
Then you realise you're only leveling/gaining resources/etc half as fast as other players, because they pay for a monthly subscription.
Then there's a cash shop for in-game items (non cosmetic) in a player driven economy game.

It died before it started because the devs are jews. If it was EITHER of those (f2p + subscription, b2p without subscription, completely f2p with cosmetic cash shop) it would've been great, but the devs fucked up from the get go.

>>384327674
I think the genre depended too much on the players to be good, and the mmo consumer is 100% cancer now. Even if the "perfect" mmo were to come out, it wouldn't work.

>>384363864
>Because I want to play when I can play.
>All classes should be able to solo in an mmo
Well, you got your answer. That is why nobody feels like talking to anyone anymore. If you don't need to talk to other players to play the game, why talk to them at all? It's just inefficient since you need to keep your fingers on all your buttons and combos to grind faster and avoid death.
If you want to talk to someone, you can open your favorite voice chat program and talk to your non-MMO buddies instead of these grind-addicted nerds.

>>384364078
The games were destined to fail by virtue of being unplayable to the average person. Not everyone can make sure to play specifically at 5-6pm on a weekday to ensure they could ever level.

Also, the issue is every class but a few could solo. Why would I ever want to play a class that was barred from leveling unless others were around? You may have figured out why the genre died. I don't pay 15 dollars a month to be forced to log out because the content isn't doable.

Let it be clear I am not saying players should be able to solo raids, but if a class can't reach max level themselves then the game is garbage. You can have group missions as well, just ensure there's enough soloable missions for a player to level. Otherwise you relegate classes like healer types to only being played by someones wife because they can ensure they are always grouped.

>>384364290
I am not sure why being able to reach max level with a healer without needing my wife to carry me ruins a game. Maybe they were simply always shit and terribly flawed in design

>pay money to be unable to play a game you can't play

People are quitting WoW because
>RNG loot
>1 to 1 clone of diablo 3
>Artificial time gating (literally wait 10 days for X thing to be finished and by the time you know it your sub has only a few days left)
>Homogenized classes
>professions are useless
>Level grinding exist to bar you from cap level
>Flying mounts shamed

>>384363864

I don't like MMOs exactly because you always needed to group with other players and I'm more of a solo player.
However, I don't play MMOs since I realise that's what they're about.

YOU are fucking complaining about a core concept of a genre you dislike. Don't fucking play that genre if you don't like it.

>>384364454
>mmo's are about specific necessary classe sbeing forced into a group
No, they weren't. You are an idiot and I am glad retards like you got pushed out of the genre. If the devs do not wish to put in playable content then they should expect a dead game

>don't play ;-;
Then how will you play? You can't do content if everyone quits.

The core to an MMO is it being online. Not being forced to be carried in order to even level

>>384364325

IMO the original Guild Wars tackled this perfectly. The content was hardly doable solo, especially for some classes, but you could hire fairly competent NPCs to help you through the brunt of the game. For the real 'dungeons' or 'raids' you still needed an actual party, but you could play the rest of the game practically 'solo'.

>>384364325
again... the game wasn't meant for you. you don't buy MGS and complain when there's no car racing content, why do you buy a genre of game where grouping up for nearly everything used to be the norm and complain when you have to group up?

early MMOs never failed, they just didn't make as much money as they could have had they catered to a casual audience

>>384364325
MMOs aren't designed for the "average person", you know. Everyone even joked about it.

>>384364425
Being too stupid to talk to random people isn't a design flaw.

>>384364591

>Then how will you play? You can't do content if everyone quits.
I don't. I explained I disliked the concept of MMOs. However, it might be a shock to you that there's a lot of people who actually enjoy grouping up with other people to play the game. Those people enjoy MMOs. Not you and me.

> Not being forced to be carried in order to even level
You're not 'forced to be carried', you're forced to work together. The core concept of an MMO is not that it's online, it's that there's players EVERYWHERE around you. Meaning if you can't do something alone, you can ask a random stranger to help you.

Fuck me, why am I even explaining this to a brainlet like you. You know very well what an MMO is about, yet you choose to whine anyway. People like you are the worst. Not everything needs to cater to you specifically, do you realise that?

>>384364640
The correct way to do it is have content that requires a group but enough content that is soloable by all so that people can reach raid content. Most MMO's did this. Retards here seem to believe if people could solo it meant they intentionally avoided groups. I did group content all the time, but being able to solo meant I was not forced to log out due to low pop.

>>384364721
Clearly it was meant for me and not you since MMO's the way I like it exist and MMO's the way you want it really do not. Again, MMO's since 2004 have largely had soloable content since few people with disposable incomes can dedicate their life to the game.

>>384364749

>MMOs aren't designed for the "average person", you know.
Yes they were. It's 2017, not 1998.

Talk to who? the ghost town on my low pop server?

>>384364591
you adhd riddles instant gratification kiddies didn't push anyone out of the genre, you just changed the meaning of MMO. similarly to how the meaning of the word gender has changed. rly activates my almonds

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>>384327674
2 days in paint

>>384364869
>You're not 'forced to be carried', you're forced to work together.
No, a few classes generally just one is forced to be carried to do content. Tanks, DPS etc can solo content at will. You are still complaining about a game being playable instead of unplayable, even though it truly doesn't harm you. MMO's clearly were not meant for you, anon. Maybe try an arena fps.

An MMO is not about being teamed at all time. Never was. It'd about a massive online game, nothing more.

>>384364908
>IT'S CURRENT YEAR!!!
SJWs ruin everying. neck yourself faggot

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>>384327674
Stormblood

>>384364974
Again, MMO's have been that way since you were 3 or 4 years old. I have played MMO's since 2004. Being forced to sit in town spamming group chat for a group until you have to log off because it's bed time is garbage design and most MMO's that did that failed, because they are not sustainable. Stop crying your version of HARDCORE MMO died off with EQ.

>>384365050
>I am frustrated and want you to stop arguing with me ;-;
Stop responding I guess?

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>there are people so fucked in the brain due to their antisocial habits that they can't figure out that if you see someone hitting small slimes next to you, you could simply ask them if they are interested in playing together to kill big slimes for more EXP and items per kill

>>384364078
But that's wrong. If you want to "play with your friends" then play something other than an MMO.

First of all, if you need other people to do something meaningful in the game then that means you are spending half your play time on waiting for people. Somebody couldn't make it to the party, somebody has to answer a door, somebody's internet is out etc. It's waiting, waiting, waiting.

Secondly, MMORPGs are supposed to feel like a world. IRL most of the things you do are by yourself, not with other people in a group. So why should that be different in MMOs?

Usually what I see is that group content is just watered down version of something that could be soloable, but artificially is limited so you couldn't do it.

We need more MMORPGs that look at games like Runescape for inspiration rather than World of Warcraft. Developers need to craft a world and stop forcing people into specific playstyles.

>>384364721
All of the early MMORPGs were very strong in solo play. It's when shit like WoW came along that it was pushed to the side and the bros who "want to play with my friends!!!" crowd took over.

>>384365171
>i have played MMOs since WoW came out, i'm an expert :^)

into the trash you go

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>>384327674
Because people don't know what they want out of an MMO and when asked they pretty much say: "It should be like that game I played when I was 14, except with all these vague, poorly described features tossed in. Also it should change constantly, everyone should have unique gear that no one else has, it should require a full raid to not die the instant you step out of town, it should take longer than your average Bachelor's degree to reach max level, and it should still somehow be a skill based game.

>>384364869
>I don't. I explained I disliked the concept of MMOs. However, it might be a shock to you that there's a lot of people who actually enjoy grouping up with other people to play the game. Those people enjoy MMOs. Not you and me.

WRONG. MMORPGs were NOT focused on group play at first. This is some bullshit that grew out of the bros that "want to play with muh friends".

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The only MMO I just want to play IS DQX, WHY CAN'T I GET IT?

>>384365236
even before WoW, people in FFXI would spam in towns and zones for hours looking for group. It was boring as shit game design when it was impossible to play the game at certain hours of the day.

>>384365401
>multiplayer game weren't focused in multiplayer
really grinds my porings

>>384365171
>I am frustrated and want you to stop arguing with me ;-;
says the guy who thinks it being a specific year has any bearing at all on something.

i see the argument all the time about how people dont have the time anymore to dedicate to a game. explain how they had all this free time back in ~2000 but somehow don't nowadays?

answer is; kids today are all about instant gratification. if they arent pressing 1 2 3 or even 4 every .5 seconds they get bored and won't play the game. it has nothing to do with not having free time

>>384365281

yeah pretty much

>>384365431
Same, fuck SE.

>>384365431
Because you are too lazy to change your life, move to Japan and live the weeaboo dream.

>MMOS are fun with friends
>MMOs are boring alone

I don't get it, why play a game if it's boring on your own and it's only fun with friends? Watching paint dry is fun with friends.

>>384365545
what? there was a flag you turned on to show that you were looking for a group. people shouting were how you knew to avoid them. if you had an IQ over 20, you'd realize that instead of standing around with your thumb up your ass, you could make a party yourself. but that would require socialization skills so people would rather just sit around hoping someone would ask them then complain about it later

>>384365823
>massively multiplayer online game is fun when played with multiple players
Truly a mystery.

>>384365171
>Again, MMO's have been that way since you were 3 or 4 years old. I have played MMO's since 2004. Being forced to sit in town spamming group chat for a group until you have to log off because it's bed time is garbage design and most MMO's that did that failed, because they are not sustainable. Stop crying your version of HARDCORE MMO died off with EQ.

I would like to point out that MMOs like Lineage and Runescape were mostly played alone. People banded together when they wanted to and were not forced to like in later MMOs (WoW).

Lineage was from 1998. Runescape from 2001.

MMOs are about a persistent world with other players that are doing their own thing. Most MMOs nowadays actually lack the "Massive" part, because everything is instanced all the time.

>>384365823
i've had fun watching paint dry with friends because we were drinking and socializing while doing it

>>384362268
Just like in real life

>>384349927
More like
>prune half of class skills with every xpac
>homogenize classes even more
>add 1 maybe 2 new talents

>>384362268
Sounds pretty neat actually. When it gets to the part when some of the guilds start breaking up over drama. People make new guilds and alliances. Some people are friends of the dudes in the big guilds and under protection. Then there are outlaws who bow to no one and half of those are probably smurfs of the dudes in the big guilds.

That's how it plays in my head at least. Probably really painful if you try to solo.

I'll try it when they add fishing.

https://forum.albiononline.com/index.php/Thread/25535-Hardcore-vs-Casual-Debate-Our-Stance/

>>384367849
Sounds like a dead game to me.