What is the best Star Wars game and why is it KOTOR II?

>>384108804
The best star wars game is Team Fortress 2 wielding the Batsaber.

Close second is Jedi Academy

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>We'll never get another star wars RPG until TOR completely dies

>>384108943
Even if we do, I doubt it'll ever come close to KOTOR II's brilliance.

It really isn't the best one. It's pretty solid and has more dark edgy Obsidian kind of writing but you can't shake that feeling of something missing or being incomplete. Bioware's original just felt more satisfying at the end.

>>384108804
Kreia.

>>384109061
>felt more satisfying at the end
Because obsidian screwed ending completely. Overall kotor2 is better, not even obsidianfag.

>>384108804
It's not, Jedi Academy is followed by modded Empire at War

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>want to replay KOTOR 2
>remember Peragus, the second half of Telos, Nar Shaddaa in its entirety, G0-T0
>stop before I begin

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>>384108804

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>>384108804
>kotor 2
>better than kotor

well meme'd anon

Obsidian went so full fedora tipping writting KOTOR II that the first one, with the cartoon villain trope, managed to still be better.

>>384108804
why does it matter what the "best" is?? all of the old star wars games are a giant pile of diamonds and arguing over which one is the shiniest is dumb. what really fucking sucks is the current state of star wars games being utter desolation.

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>>384110412
>all of the old star wars games are a giant pile of diamonds

>>384108804
as far as I'm aware the only half decent Star Wars game is Jedi Outcast

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Not even the best star wars game

>>384110252
no
KOTOR II makes KOTOR I look like complete dogshit writing wise
The only thing KOTOR I does better is that it's more polished and finished

>>384109875
>want to replay KOTOR
>remember Taris, Kashyyyk, Manaan, Carth
>stop before I begin

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Yeah, I don't care who you are, nothing will ever top the story of Revan. Hands down the best character and the game will never be beaten.

>Shit on black n white SW "writing"

Only reason why 2 was good

>>384109875
KotOR 2 is the best game ever made except for every single long combat section like onderon2, last hour of NS, the temple on dxun,
telos planetside, korriban.

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>>384108804

>>384108804
I wish the combat system was better.

>>384108868
>trying this hard to be funny

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>>384108804
Never heard of Star Wars Galaxies OP?

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>Visas asks to come with me at the end after Kreia is defeated
>three avaliable dialogue options
>they are all varations of no

>>384115984
KotOR 3 would've had no reoccuring companions except the droids.

>>384116027
Star Wars: TOR is essentially Kotor III it's primarily a single player experience.

>>384116027
Fuck that. My exile just wanted to retire to a life of cruising around on the Ebon Hawk banging Visas all day but apparently I had to fuck off and go searching for Revan.

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>>384116109
>TOR is essentially KotOR 3

Kotor (2), JKA and Republic Commando

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>>384113984
>not liking the Dxun Temple
Baka
And Korriban isn't even a combat section, it's wandering around spooky ruins discussing the past and philosophy with Kreia. It's one of my favourite parts of the game.

>>384115984
>>384116152
Setup for a game that never happened, anon. Just ignore it and imagine flying off into the sunset with your waifu
Good taste, by the way

>>384113526
>KOTOR II makes KOTOR I look like complete dogshit writing wise
How do you figure?

>>384116198
I do not understand why people love Republic Commando so much. The enemies are way too tanky to be fun.

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>>384116157
I mean he's not wrong. The Jedi Knight story is practically KOTOR 3. As terrible as it was, I think even the devs mentioned it to that degree

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>>384116282

>>384108804
It's not

>>384116293
I think it's the entirety of Act 2 for me, the way it's paced, the sense of desperation, the setpieces.

>>384115984
I've only ever seen atton at the end.

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>>384116282
>How do you figure?
The writing itself is technically a lot better - elegant and memorable, helped by some truly magnificent voice acting; the narrative is a lot more sophisticated and complex, and the way the game's detail resolves over multiple playthroughs is incredible.
I'm not that anon, nor do I think the writing in the first game is bad, but the second game is so much better.
>Awaken.

>>384116836
You need higher influence with your other companions then.

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>>384117053
>the way the game's detail resolves over multiple playthroughs is incredible.
Elaborate further please.

>>384117059
I had enough influence with everyone except goto to unlock all their conversation options/turn them into jedi.

>>384116836
I was darkside. I had to leave Visas behind in the Traya academy to train the next faggot who comes along so that they could follow me as I followed Revan.

>>384117374
>he didn't turn GO-TO into a jed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDVCHKeM1Uk

This video is great, infact the entire lets play by scorchy is great

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>>384117167
>Elaborate further please.
After you finish your first playthrough, most players will only have a simple idea of the narrative and why things occurred as they did - even if you spotted some of the foreshadowing earlier in the game, you lack the necessary context to really understand the brilliance of things like Kreia and Atris' mirroring one another, or Kreia's problems with the Jedi and Sith, and most players come away with the simplistic idea that Kreia was evil/a Sith all along and wanted to kill the Force (or alternatively, to die).
Multiple playthroughs allow the player to recognise the importance of that foreshadowing and details throughout the game, from story (Kreia's lessons about betrayal, her powers of shielding herself from sight, the Exile's companions and bonds) to mechanics (like realising Kreia's lesson on Nar Shaddaa is a controlled situation).

Even more than that, there are a lot of cool details that a first-time player is unlikely to notice or figure out on their own (like Kreia's identity), and many of them are unique to a particular playstyle, so it's impossible to see them all with one or two playthroughs - dialogue unique to each companion, unique to playing Dark- or Light-side, whether you kill the Masters or not, or even unique to each /alignment/ for each companion (like having Mira with a Dark-sided character).
1/

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>>384117167
>>384118468
The game is also very respectful of the player and the player's initiative, so it won't hold your hand through these choices. As important as it is to understanding the game to see how Kreia's lessons for a dark-sider differ from those of a light-sided player, there are many conversations where the player themselves needs to pick the right dialogue option (instead of being signposted with a Wisdom or Awareness check), which requires multiple playthoughs or at least replaying the same conversation multiple times until you see the branches. Kreia's True Lesson of Strength is the best example of this. Not only does it require unlocking an Influence-checked dialogue with an already alignment-unique companion (Hanharr) and discussing it with Kreia, it then requires you to talk to Hanharr again to gain a better understanding, return to Kreia to finish discussing it and then requires the player to choose the right dialogue option as to what the Lesson of Strength truly means. If you pick one of the others, Kreia gives a convincing but incomplete answer - it's only one dialogue option that gives you the true answer, and it needs the player alone to recognise it. An extreme example, but understanding this particular lesson is also extremely important in understanding Kreia's character and philosophy as a whole.

There are a lot more examples I could use - seeing the duality in Mira and Hanharr's character arcs by having each as a companion, seeing the unique interactions Disciple and Handmaiden have with the Exile and their character development, seeing how the game is different for male and female Exiles, comparing the Masters' judgement of a light-side Exile to Kreia's judgement of a Dark-side one, experiencing Visas and Handmaiden's romances.
2/

>TARIS
>ATRIS

>>384108943
>star wars RPG by nu-bioware
That would be blasphemy.

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>>384111334
Stop posting anytime

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>>384117167
>>384118468
>>384118941
The best thing is, all of this information and lore and perspective is cohesive. None of it is unfairly obscured from the player or held unrealistically, it's just incredible writing and narrative design that rewards mutltiple playthroughs, different choices, and choosing insightful dialogue that mirrors what the player is thinking. I honestly can't think of another game that is this well-structured and rewarding of multiple playthroughs, and the feeling when you have enough perspective to understand the themes of the game is indescribably good, like truly understanding Kreia's goals for the first time, or the meta brilliance in the Exile's test in the caves on Korriban.
3/3

I hope that was an adequate explanation, anon, I didn't want to ramble on too long. People might meme Chris Avellone as being an 'overrated' writer, but once you begin to understand and appreciate it KotOR II is so incredibly good it makes any criticism of anything else he's done irrelevant.

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>>384118986
BETRAYAL

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>>384119148
Oh, master...

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>>384119297
Thanks anon, it was a good read. I have a newfound appreciation for KOTOR 2 but it's a shame I won't be able to bring myself to replay it that many times as the gameplay itself begins to really drag around the halfway point and towards the end especially it just becomes a chore.

If you wouldn't mind, could you also give me your take on this meta brilliance of the Exile's test?

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>>384119351
Those pretzels are too good, fuck the code

Best part of KotOR 2 is the party companion conversations with each other, like Atton and Kreia, Handmaiden and Visas catfighting over jedi jesus..

No other wrpg has this level of party interaction, so they all end up feeling dead and robotic.

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I want to KotOR 2, but I don't know what build I want to try.

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>>384108804
Why is she so underrated?

>>384119910
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XNHZ0NxDSY

>>384120006
>Avellone wrote her and Cass

based redhead lover

>>384119979
Blaster Jedi

>>384119979
Space Jesus Jedi Watchman a.k.a. canon run

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>tfw can't kill Hanharr as Mira
>tfw can't defeat Sion as Atton

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>>384119910
>Atton constantly teasing Handmaiden about knowing more about the Echani than he lets on
>Handmaiden going to Mira for boy advice
>If you have higher influence with Visas, eventually Handmaiden just flips out and tries to kill her
>If it's the other way around Visas does nothing
This game is so good

>>384120006
She's in a game with four other literally perfect waifus, and she's the most subtle of the lot since she seemingly rebuffs the Exile, so it's not really a surprise people gravitate to the other characters.
I still love her, though, since she's a cute as fuck redhead.

>>384120006
I just never used her because there was always someone else who could fill that role better.

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>>384120141
I've done that, even completed the run and Precision Shot at the highest tiers really helps at the Sith Academy.

>>384120216
So I know what to avoid because canons are always shit

Is sneak useable? It's the only build I've not tried yet.

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>>384119979
My favourite build is a mental-focused Guardian/Weapon Master, so Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma. You don't need to max many skills, so with 14 > 16 Int you'll have more than enough skill points to go around, and you have so many feats spending a couple on Class Skill:whatever isn't an issue. 14 Wisdom and Charisma plus Awareness and Persuade lets you pass all the checks you'll ever need, and you get to be an incredibly powerful warrior on top of that (as well as being mentored by the best Master, Kavar)

>>384120237
Don't neglect their equipment, anon!
Make them both into self-buffing gunslingers (especially well-suited to Mira, Atton might be better off using sabers against Sion).
Mira in particular is a terror with Master Force Speed, Valour and Barrier and dual Mandalorian Rippers

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;__________;

>>384120791
It's ok Atton. Space Jesus forgives you your sins.

>>384120645
Wouldn't Consular/Weapon Master be better all around, you get faster Power progression and when you get Weapon Master you can make up the feats really fast. I always wondered why /v/ clever as you guys are never really cross-class, just because Weapon Master/Marauder corresponds with Guardian doesn't mean its the best, or only option. A very few builds will ever require that many feats.

>>384113526
Kotor II was too ambitious for me. For example, all the light saber customization is frankly boring and pointless, a waste of resources and time.

>>384120006
She's got a massive chip on her shoulder at the start and you have to get past that before she feels part of the group

>>384121156
>She's got a massive chip on her shoulder
Yeah, I'm sure it's got nothing to do with the fact that you're singlehandedly responsible for the deaths of her entire adoptive family and destruction of her adoptive people

>>384120929
>extra customisation is boring and pointless

Yeah, better to play kotor 1 where you can barely upgrade anything except the lightsaber, and even then there's a lot less to upgrade.

post the pretzel image already

Was Kreia the Handmaiden's mother?

Dual Lightsabers > Single Lightsaber > Lightsaber Staff

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>>384121315
One day the exile will help me become a pretzel.

>>384121372
Of course. Gives some extra perspective to her lewd speech about Handmaiden, right?

>>384120929
boring maybe, but if there's one hing you should absolutely minmax it's your saber

>>384121372
Both said to be Revan's first and last teachers, both exiled and presumed dead after mandalorian wars, kreia fucking around with mical's memory, etc.

>>384121457
Wait, what lewd speech?

I swear you have to use a guide to get full influence with every party member

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>>384114105
>I wish the combat system was better.
it's just too robotic with little player input

>>384118468
>>384118941
>>384119297
I agree with pretty much everything you said.
I actually didn't know a lot about some of the intricacies of Kotor 2's plot until I read this let's play:
https://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/Update%2058/

Why does T3 blast HK at one point?

What would you describe the dynamic between a Female Exile and Kreia as?

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>>384121572
>Wait, what lewd speech?
You know the lewd speech Kreia gives you about Visas, the
>It is good that you never wondered what lay beneath her robes, if her alabaster skin was as white and unblemished as her face...
one?

She has a similar one about the Handmaiden. I don't remember it as exactly - her speech about Visas is burned into my brain - but she asks you if you had considered what sparring with Handmaiden might mean, and if you defeated her whether she would ''submit to you completely''.
It's... distinctly less discouraging than her one about Visas, so take that as you will.

>>384121958
'Be my surrogate daughter' instead of a male Exile's 'fuck my actual daughter'.

>>384121891
>turn a light character fully dark
>they still get buttblasted when you are occasionally mean to people
Good thing that save editor is so nifty.

Jedi Academy is still my favorite because of pure replay value. Such a good game and the only one to make death grip fun.

>>384108804
X wing vs TIE fighter
Also TFU games did a good job of translating force powers and light saber action into a hack n' slash gameplay.
I don't think any other star wars game lets you terrorize storm troopers by chaining them together like a barrel of monkeys and lowering them into the carbonite freezer. Also has a good grasp of the aesthetics of the star wars universe. They're not perfect games by a long shot, but some good jedi/sith gameplay.

>>384121939
Revenge.

>>384121912
>A game with KOTOR writing, dialogue, and RPG mechanics with a JK combat system and modern graphics.
It will never happen though.

Sure, the writing is good, but it is hidden in a convoluted mess of a game with hardly any further redeeming qualities.

>>384119712
Sorry for taking so long to reply, anon! I wanted to get the phrasing exactly right to be as clear as possible, and I accidentally closed the window halfway through.

>>384121936
Thanks, anon! Yeah, it's one of those games that has a lot of subtle detail and it can be difficult for a player to pick up on all of it, simply because of how long the game is and how many things you have to think about and remember.
I really like that LP, it does a good job of showing all the hinting the game does for everything, instead of just explaining to the reader and not showing them.

>>384124876
>but it is hidden in a convoluted mess of a game with hardly any further redeeming qualities.
You mean like the amazing soundtrack, great characters, and enjoyable character building?
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-4a86QxQWE

>>384125002
i'll agree with you on the soundtrack. Some characters are good, but the vast majority of players will not be able to experience them fully, which is just bad design.

>>384125357
I disagree - I think it's good design, because having some characters have slightly different interactions with player characters of different genders/alignment and, as I mentioned before, alignment- and gender-specific characters allows for more complexity and depth not just in the characters and character development themselves but also the narrative as a whole.

If there's one problem I have with it it's that characters are slightly 'unbalanced' in this way (for example, I'd love to be able to have Handmaiden with me in every playthrough, with different dialogue for a female pc) but overall I think it works well. There's something worth seeing with every alignment/gender-unique character.

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>>384125357
>>384126541
That wasn't very clear. I apologise, I'm very tired.

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TIE Fighter is the greatest single-player SW game
X-Wing Alliance might top it for the multiplayer and improved floor ght model, but it has a worse campaign.

>>384126959
*improved flight model

>>384126959
>Warning: do not attempt to issue in-flight orders to Lord Vader
I agree.

>>384120929
>game has customization options, so it's bad!
kill yourself

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>>384126695
>can take Nihilus' mask from his body
>can't wear it

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>>384121936
>but there must always be a Darth Traya, one that holds the knowledge of betrayal.
>Who has been betrayed in their heart, and will betray in turn.

What did they mean by this? It came up like four times in my one playthough and while I can piece together most other stuff, that one just went right over my head each time.

>>384126959
I agree, TIE Fighter is the best Star Wars game.

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>>384127512
[Unintelligible whispering intensifies]

>>384113984
>>384109875
>>384113614
The sum is greater than the parts

I just wish it would be 2001 again.

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>>384129230
You... you're the darkness in which all life dies, milord

>>384128046
>What did they mean by this? It came up like four times in my one playthough and while I can piece together most other stuff, that one just went right over my head each time.
Betrayal is one of the main themes of the game (along with belief, conflict, and context/perspective) and runs through a lot of the characters and narrative.
Quick post while I bump the thread.
Are you the same anon as before?

>>384126959
Will we ever get a real 3D update of these games? Please.

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>>384129472
>sacrificing Visas
No!

>>384109875
>Peragus
Am I the only one here that liked Peragus better than Taris?

>>384130581
Don't forget the butterfly effect.

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>>384128046
>What did they mean by this? It came up like four times in my one playthough and while I can piece together most other stuff, that one just went right over my head each time.
Betrayal is one of the major themes of the game, and is relevant to a lot of the characters and narrative, but particularly (and fittingly) Kreia.
In that quote she's speaking specifically about the universal and eternal experience of betrayal, but also its recurrent nature - the nature of having faith in or loving someone or something else (like a belief, or a code) means that there will always be someone who is betrayed and then betrays in their turn.

Atris felt betrayed by the Exile going to fight in the Mandalorian Wars instead of remaining with her, and this is what causes her to eventually view the rest of the Jedi as having betrayed their purpose, leading to her increasing fanatacism and fall to the Dark Side. Handmaiden takes an oath not to be trained as a Jedi, and to remain faithful to Atris forever - her betraying this oath, and especially because it's the Exile (who Atris is already obsessed with) who causes her to do so is what makes Atris really lose it; and in doing so, Atris herself has betrayed the code of the Jedi. The reason Handmaiden makes that promise in the first place is so that she can be 'better' than her father, who himself betrayed his original wife by running off and fighting in the Wars with his lover, Handmaiden's mother Arren Kae, who is Kreia.. Ultimately, this 'betrayal' is what allows Atris to be manipulated so well - her fall to the Dark Side draws both the Exile and Nihilus to Telos, allowing the Exile to overcome the latter and finally go back to Malachor, to confront Kreia who has reasserted herself as 'leader' of the Sith.
One unbroken chain, Kreia to the Exile to Atris to Handmaiden, to Kreia, that unfolds and propels so much of the game.

>>384108804
KOTOR II is probably the best Star Wars story ever told. Fuck Rogue One.

>>384134547
imo, TFA was worse than Rogue One.
btw, didn't they have to re-shot half of RO or something? And now I'm hearing a bunch of shit going on with the han solo movie.

>>384127187
What happens if you do give him orders?

Wasn't there a mod or something being worked on to restore some of the lost content to kotor II?
Whatever happened to it?

>>384135487
It's been out for years

>>384108804
KOTOR turned into an MMO after a straight rip of everything Obsidian.
Neverwinter turned into a MMO after a straight rip of everything Obsidian.

Why does Obsidian kill everything it touches?

>Kreia is Briannas mother
WTF? Is there any mention towards this in the game? I played kotor 2 a shitload of times and this is the first time i'm hearing this.

>>384108804
Jesus, I wish we could go back to the kind of storytelling they had in KOTOR2 in a new game.

Obsidian is willing to get subcontracted for just writing duties, right? Maybe EA could work something out with these dudes?

>>384134747
I liked Rogue One, best non-OT movie imo. TFA blows.

>>384136174
meant for >>384134491

>>384135824
Guess I'll look into it and give it a shot

>>384136013
>KOTOR turned into an MMO after a straight rip of everything Obsidian.
How is Bioware fucking up somehow Obsidian's fault?

>>384136174
Read this:
https://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/Update%2058/

>>384108804
Nigger Kotor 2 isn't even the best Kotor game.

>>384128046
>>384134491
And this particular example unfolds exactly as Kreia wants as she does one active thing during the game - informing Atris of the Exile's 'betrayal'. This is one of the best possible examples of Kreia's philosophy of manipulation: being aware of the context, the forces and history that shape people and events, and being able to manipulate these for the outcome you desire. Thus, Kreia's Lesson:
>"From such small things, from such critical points, the universe and its masses may be moved... that is why you must be careful in all that you do, and in every choice you make."
Betrayal is useful because of how powerful it is, the hold it has over both the betrayed and the betrayer, as well as how common it is especially in the conflict the game is set in. The idea of betrayal is also particularly important to Kreia for other reasons, which I'll get to later.

There are other good examples of this, in the backstory and the game itself. Revan's 'betrayal' of the Republic - but was it a betrayal at all? Kreia, Revan's former teacher, makes an argument for either case - that perhaps it was not a betrayal, not a fall, but a sacrifice; that Revan knew what needed to be done to protect the Republic and did so, even if it meant turning on it. Revan's forces willingly betrayed the Republic along with him, as they already felt betrayed by the Republic and Jedi Order's ungratefulness at what they and Revan had done to defeat the Mandalorians. Atton was one of these, who willingly betrayed almost everything he stood for to become an assassin and torturer for the Sith - and then, once he became aware of his Force-sensitivity, committed another betrayal by abandoning the Sith out of cowardice. This is what Kreia holds over him for most of the game... and most importantly, as she makes clear she holds this power over him /only/ because Atton is ashamed (or terrified) of the Exile finding out.
2/

Oblivious douche here. I've never played KOTOR, 1 or 2.

Would you recommend it? Give me the condensed version, what can I expect?

>>384110143
Don't be daft, the game was buggy as shit and had a ton of shit cut out due to deadlines, but the story was one of, if not THE best, Star Wars videogame story yet.

The cherry on top was how they explicitly explain the experience gain mechanic in the story, that shit was great.

>>384134432
>Don't forget the butterfly effect.
Good point, anon. I tend to include it under the broader theme of 'context', because understanding context is the only way one truly understands the importance of one's actions.

>>384135157
>What happens if you do give him orders?
He ignores you. He's Darth Vader, he's not going to bother addressing some random pilot.

>>384136174
It's implied subtly but consistently across the game, I'm not surprised you didn't pick it up. It tends to be one of the best realisations for KotOR fans.
This is a good summary:
>https://lparchive.org/Knights-of-the-Old-Republic-II/Update%2058/

>>384136402
The two alternatives are tor and kotor 1.
Which one are you saying is better?

>>384109061
That feeling really isn't there when you play the restored content mod. But then again, should you judge came based on its mods (even if they restore the original intent) or should it be judged purely on its vanilla release? Kotor 2 really does feel awkward without the restored content and completely smashes into pieces at the end.

>>384136456
>Would you recommend it?
Yes, I'd recommend them both. Leave this thread right now, and definitely don't read it, because it contains both massive spoilers and heavy discussion of the game's themes which may detract from your experience.
>Give me the condensed version, what can I expect?
KotOR I: a good, fun Star Wars rpg that evokes Star Wars really well.
KotOR II: A game that is brilliant both in the context of being a sequel to and reflection of the first game and a Star Wars game in general. Great writing, characters, music.
Play them both.

>>384136632
I remember playing through kotor 2 the first time and getting pissed off that people kept bringing up Peragus. Then, that sudden realization that the destruction of Peragus could very well be the deathblow to the Republic.

>>384136350
If KOTOR was the only example you would have a point.
Their history is littered with franchises they killed.
Until Bethesda no game they worked on got a direct sequel.
PoE will be the first franchise they worked on that got a sequel they themselves have worked on.It had to be KS but still it was the first time in their history that happened.

They are franchise killers.

>>384137157
Alright, you mind doing some elaboration please?

>>384136456
>Would you recommend it?
Yes, i think they've aged quite well and are an easy jumping in point for crpgs.
>Give me the condensed version
Kotor 1 is a well-crafted star wars rpg, developed by bioware so it's on the generic side but still good.
Kotor 2 i think is much more interesting and i don't think another party-based rpg has come close to topping it since it was released.

>>384137023
Of course, the death of the Exile would definitely mean the death of the galaxy, so it's tricky. At least for the people whining at you, they have no way of knowing the Exile is so important.

>>384136935
>Kotor 2 really does feel awkward without the restored content and completely smashes into pieces at the end.
No, it doesn't. The ending is a bit abrupt, sure, but it resolved the Exile's journey and the themes of the game really well. People are just disappointed because they expected a huge climactic ending like the first game; whereas the ending is far more personal. In fact, the game itself chides you for it:
>"Perhaps you were expecting some surprise, for me to reveal a secret that had eluded you, something that would change your perspective of events, shatter you to your core.
>There is no great revelation, no great secret. There is only you."

>>384137023
That's the theme I forgot to mention before - the most important one, too. Echoes.
The background and narrative of this game is so good, because it's so complex while still being cohesive, and neither is it all spelled out for the player.

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>>384114487
Pre-NCU Galaxies was best Galaxies. So much potential.

>>384136994

What's it like in terms of gameplay? Is it turned based like some shitty JRPG, or is there actual action?

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>>384137157
That's because both KotOR II and Mask of the Betrayer were so fucking good that they precluded there being any point in another company making a sequel, since any would be inferior.

In fact, that's how TOR came to be as bad as it is - the main writer of the original KotOR, Drew Karpyshyn, was so incensed that Chris Avellone and Obsidian did a better job writing his characters and lore in KotOR II than he ever could (seriously, all of that great characterisation people love about Revan is Avellone's work from II) that he threw a giant tantrum and wrote a book and background lore that ruined his own characters out of spite.

>>384137307
Do you want their whole catalog?
It will be easier to list the games that finally beat the Obsidian curse
Fallout and South Park(From another studio)

PoE their flagship IP.
This will be the first time in their history they worked on an IP twice and the first time someone (Paradox) worked with them a second time.
Not bad for 15 or so years in the business.

>>384137504
I do have to ask, why does kreia even want you to fight her to the death at Malachor anyways?

>>384137864
I will never forgive bioware for making the exile a 2nd fiddle to Revan.
Didn't they also ruin Kreia's character retroactively as well?

>>384137864
Not sure if serious.

>>384137807
It's turn based but in real time, it plays a lot like an mmo.

>>384138017
>It will be easier to list the games that finally beat the Obsidian curse
>Fallout and South Park(From another studio)
Perhaps it would have been better if fallout died with New Vegas.

>>384138280
They tried

>>384137864
>Drew Karpyshyn
Playing KOTOR more recently, I saw a bit of foreshadowing for the fuckery to come: On Kashyyyk, you have to answer moral questions from Revan's perspective, and one of them is the prisoner's dilemma. Thing is, in spite of what game theorists (bless their hearts) say, the correct answer is to cooperate, because, empirically, most people are prosocial. Of course, because Karpyshyn is only capable of mustache-twirling villains, his correct answer is to betray.

>>384138124
>Not sure if serious.
I'm entirely serious, which is why you're not actually refuting my point.
Are you not aware of why TOR is the way it is, and how unpopular those changes were and are?

>>384136174
It's just an insinuation.

>>384138420
>They tried
That does little to excuse the entirety that is fallout 4.

>>384138467
The first Kotor's moral system was the traditional Jesus/the devil incarnate slider.
Kotor 2 was a little more nuanced. In fact, I can name 2 light-sided decisions that aren't actually the correct choices per say.

>>384138487
You believe the buggy unfinished mess KOTOR2 was so good it shamed everyone in multiple industries into making it non canon.

This thought process went through your head and sounded reasonable?

That is why I questioned the validity of your statement.I could not believe someone was so stupid.

>>384138920
>The first Kotor's moral system was the traditional Jesus/the devil incarnate slider.
Of course. The thing on Kashyyyk is subtler, because it's a failure to reasonably characterize Revan. The risk of cooperating in the prisoner's dilemma is that the other player will betray you (though in practice this risk is very small, since as I said, most people are prosocial). If the other player is one of his followers, who are fanatically loyal to him, then he's much better off cooperating---because, if nothing else, it'll show that their loyalty is reciprocated. It's not like Revan got to be this great leader through constantly fucking over his followers.
I only bring it up because it shows Karpyshyn's total failure to think anything through, which would be on grander display in, say, Mass Effect.

>>384138025
>I do have to ask, why does kreia even want you to fight her to the death at Malachor anyways?
She wished you - through your students - to found a new Jedi Order, one that is more aware and considered, instead of blindly following (and thus being bound by) their beliefs like the old Order.
>If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single idea.
>To believe in an ideal, is to be willing to betray it. It is something no Sith or Jedi has ever truly learned.
This is why she wanted you to gather the Masters; she wished to show you, the best student of her teachings, to the Masters and have them finally acknowledge the truth of her teachings. Killing her at Malachor is both a symbol and the final step in moving past the chains of the past, the old orders both Jedi and Sith - because then you would no longer be bound by her, either.
Interestingly, no matter what you do in the game, she succeeds - the very nature of the game itself means you have no choice but to be influenced by her teachings in one way or another, and you equally you must destroy the last vestiges of the Jedi and the Sith. You are Kreia's victory.
>I will never forgive bioware for making the exile a 2nd fiddle to Revan.
>Didn't they also ruin Kreia's character retroactively as well?
Neither will I, anon.
And yes, they did. In fact, they ruined every single character who appeared in either game, and Drew Karpyshit apparently forgot any thematic point he was trying to make in the first game, because he contradicted that, too.

>>384138467
>On Kashyyyk, you have to answer moral questions from Revan's perspective
What? I don't remember moral dilemmas while dealing with wookies.

>>384139792
The Star Map was locked out by Revan, and you have to "prove" to the Star Map that you are Revan (which is also some clunky foreshadowing). And you do that by answering some moral questions, Blade Runner style.

>>384139472
>If the other player is one of his followers, who are fanatically loyal to him, then he's much better off cooperating---because, if nothing else, it'll show that their loyalty is reciprocated. It's not like Revan got to be this great leader through constantly fucking over his followers.
Well, in all fairness, Revan did fuck over his followers. The jedi exile being one of them in fact.

>>384140010
I replayed recently, how could I forget it?

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>>384138467
>>384139472
>The thing on Kashyyyk is subtler, because it's a failure to reasonably characterize Revan.
Exactly, I agree with you completely, anon.
What's incredible is that Avellone did a better job of characterising Revan in II, to the point where he's one of the most interesting and important characters in the duology... even though Revan is an entirely background character and there are only three or four major conversations about him.

He did it brilliantly, too - by specifically referring to the ambiguity of his actions and the tremendous loyalty his charisma earned him, and his reciprocation and manipulation of that loyalty.

>>384140295
>how could I forget it?
Maybe you wanted to block it out, anon. Kashyyyk isn't exactly one of the better parts of the game.

>>384108804
It's really great but Outcast and Rogue games are amazing too.

>>384140130
First, that's KOTOR2 talking; the first game didn't give Malachor the same weight as the second (and as I recall, the only account you get of Malachor is from Canderous). As far as the first game has it, Revan was a great man who got "corrupted," and who "corrupted" the fleet in turn (e.g., using the Star Forge). If you open the box of the second game, then whether he'd choose to cooperate on betray would be dependent on the total context of the situation, but it definitely wouldn't be the case that betray is the right answer because there's some horseshit proof.
In KOTOR2's telling of it, Revan used Malachor as an opportunity to cull the ranks of the not-so-loyal. But I never got the sense that he set out to fuck the Exile; after all, he let the Exile go back to Republic space. (And why not? They were probably friends, and Revan had nothing to gain or lose either way.)

>>384114018
These underage cunts do not realize how great the Super series is

>>384140397
>What's incredible is that Avellone did a better job of characterising Revan in II, to the point where he's one of the most interesting and important characters in the duology... even though Revan is an entirely background character and there are only three or four major conversations about him.
Every good thing that people like about Revan came from II, not I.

>>384140556
>Maybe you wanted to block it out, anon. Kashyyyk isn't exactly one of the better parts of the game.
Underwater manaan is the worst. I like the creepy, empty base, but those walking sections.....

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>>384134747
If what we saw was the edited, course corrected Rogue One I can't imagine how bad the first couple drafts were.

"AND THEN FANSERVICE" the movie

>>384140883
>had nothing to gain or lose either way.
The reason was he wanted to damage the morale of the council i think, i vaguely remember hearing that.

>>384141192
On that note, what is with the "tree" meme with episode 8?

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>>384121443
i need more lulz like this

My friend here is trying to convince me that any independent contractors working on the second Death Star were innocent bystanders when it was destroyed by the rebels.

>>384141409
Eh, hard to say. Even if that was said, it could just as well be rationalization. It's unlikely that Revan actually was Kreia's idealization; you gotta figure, a man like that has to have confidants. It's just impossible to pull those kinds of things off in the perfectly "disinterested" way that all the Nietzsche-wank would suggest. Hence I prefer to believe that Revan didn't know the Mass Shadow Generator would fuck up the Exile like that, and he let the Exile go out of friendship. If nothing else, that viewpoint is just as well-supported as any other.

Playing KOTOR for the first time now and KOTOR II following that. For 2 is the restored content mod recommended or is vanilla the proper experience for the first playthrough?

>>384142435
No go ahead and get the mod. It adds so much without taking anything away.

>>384141864
BABY FACE BAMBINO?

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>>384119712
>tfw I still haven't replied to this
If you see this in the archive, I'm sorry, anon. Please post this again in the next couple of KotOR II threads, I'll have the answer ready so if I see you I can respond!

>>384113614
>>384113614
Man, I did a couple playthroughs with the skip taris mod, and holy fuck is dantooine is the worst, I started playing through taris again, and was sad to see there was no skip dantooine mod.

>>384113614
>He doesn't like Kashyyyk and Manaan

>>384141451
The Force is some tree.

>>384141451
the force is a tree in the upcoming movie

>>384144528
>Manaan
You enjoyed the underwater section with its slow walking I take it?

>>384144991
>>384145151
you can't be serious.

>>384145574
wish I was joking m8

>>384119979
Go consular/lord or consular/maurader if you're dark side. Solve every combat situation with force storm so you won't have to deal with the tedious parts.

>>384141451
>>384144991
>>384145151
>>384145574
>>384145672
Someone mind elaborating for me?

>>384146697
A. FUCKING. TREE.

>>384147542
Are there penguins or something too from what I heard?

If you're willing to sit through a 2 hour long video this is a pretty good watch if you want to understand more of how Kreia's philosophy deconstructs morality in the greater star wars canon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Z0S0Z8lUTg

>>384149171
It's only like 12 years late.


Thats what I like about obsidian games, you can talk about them a decade later and people still want to talk. Not many other games have that

>>384149531
I have a feeling these games will be talked about for as long as the original star wars is talked about, until the new movies ruin everything retroactively and everyone stops talking about it for like 20 years. It'll be a nice reprieve after what Disney plans to do I'm sure.

>>384149531
that's because up until Fallout New Vegas, Obsidian games had a general theme that they were going for and all the writing and characters revolved around that theme and exploring it.

Discussion about games like these will pretty much never die, because it's the same as discussing politics or philosophy.

>>384150723
>up until Fallout New Vegas, Obsidian games had a general theme that they were going for and all the writing and characters revolved around that theme and exploring it

New Vegas was big enough that it had multiple big themes in more or less self-contained sections, equating to multiple games' worth of what your talking about. The most obvious one being Dead Money.