RTS mechanics that dont work in RTS games

I think a small thing that would greatly improve RTS games would be a day/night cycle by which all units in game would have to rest periodically. A day/night cycle would give players time to do economy management and to prepare for the next battle. There could be nighttime raids, but they would be disadvantageous for the attacker due to reduced visibility.

>>383986534
it would make the game slow and pointless for someone who was fast enough to built what is necessary

>>383986104
>why every FPS game is not Call of Duty?

>>383986104
Multiplayer

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>>383986104
Yeah I have to agree, while micro is important is pretty much all RTS's, it should be used on improving unit efficiency not on workers. The wargame series does this really well

>Don't have to manage squad morale

Dawn of War made me realized how such a simple addition can give you more priority over squad management and more of a sense you are controlling an actual army.

>>383986104
TW really isn't an RTS like the others are.

Like I'm not the cunt that'll differentiate between Real Time Strategy and "Real Time Tactics", but TW's battle map is really, really basic. Like a lot closer to MOBA level than anything approaching an RTS.
I fucking love TW games by the way. It's just the reality of them.

C&C has a good pace, whether or not it's full on gook-click like Brood War is up in the air, because they were never big enough in multiplayer for anything to get too refined.
They were pretty well balanced in micro and macro though. The macro was the easiest macro in any RTS. Click for buildings and units, clear build times on display and an audio prompt.
Micro was also pretty low, there were a few things you could do with some specialist units, but in general it was a pretty low requirement of attack move, garrison and occasionally specify an ability with a couple of units.

Waiting for buildings to be built is fine in both C&C and Brood War, as both aren't unreasonably timed and kill the pacing.

I really like AoE 2 but I can't play it much before I remember how much of a chore dark and feudal age are. Drushes and feudal aggression are few and far between. And they change very little.

The later two of your points fit certain games and don't fit others. Resource systems, regardless of the complexity of what they represent(taxation, population growth etc.) Simply are not captured to any noticeable depth in any video game I can remember.

Like Distant Worlds is a great game with incredible depth to resources and production and logistics. But taxation and growth/happiness is so simple(and yet so important) that it actually ruins the game for me.
It would be better if it was further simplified or removed to keep it out of mind, and let you interact with the resource economy more.

It is hard to play a gookclick RTS well, but they can be enjoyed beneath the professional level without too much ability and still be really enjoyable.

>>383986720
not especially, i think this kinda thing could work actually, doesnt even need to be restricted to day/night it could be like a toxic blizzard or a radiation storm or some other condition that stops or at least discourages attacking. it would split the game into different phases, and each one could require different types of skills.

>>383987719
actually i just remembered, didnt they do snowstorms in CoH2?

>>383987558
>Like I'm not the cunt that'll differentiate between Real Time Strategy and "Real Time Tactics"
Why not though
There's obvious differences between the subgenres
And the whole point of genre names is easy differentiation between features

We need more RTS games with asymmetrical faction designs beyond units. Universe at war did this well.

>>383987832
wait for the inevitable RTS of the Endless

>>383987790
Yea and community got pissed and they took it out of online matchmaking

>>383986104
>hurrr I'm bad at broodwar

>>383986104
>>383987558
And last bit of my post that wouldn't fit:

Starcraft was popular because people without good micro still played and adored the game, and created an audience for the people who really excelled. Not the other way around.

>>383986945
Multiplayer is never really necessary, and while being very subjective, usually permits for the most enjoyment and replayability of an RTS game.
Multiplayer as a feature is blameless, the main issue is how developers perceive it and pursue it.
Every RTS is in Brood War's shadow when it shouldn't be.

>>383987248
I only feel that morale only approaches being real and interesting in things like Total War.
Yeah, you can make morale debuffs for middling morale and stuff, but most of the impact of the feature is an all or nothing approach. Still fighting or fucking legging it.

DoW's morale wasn't memorable at all for me. Mostly because of how arbitrary it was.
It could also be achieved through other means.
I mean with slightly higher lethality a situation of being outgunned or attacked in melee would have you fear for your squads just as much as a morale system would. And you could rig debuffs to the flamer and such to get a very similar effect.
It wasn't bad, I just don't see how you can perceive DoW as a very interesting example of morale.

>>383987810
Because subgenres are often without meaning.
Like there is some justification in differentiating Total War from Brood War, of course. But my point is that the difference is more than what you would seperate only between subgenres.

Separating things like Company of Heroes from Supreme Commander is the type of categorization that I find annoying.
They have a lot of different stuff going on, and your approach is very different, but the gameplay is still very similar; only the level of macro/micro as dictated by the size and time scale.

>>383987909
As long as it's Legend. ES/2 was disappointing.
But an RTS in EL's aesthetic would be really eye-catching.

>>383987953
Amazing post friend, you really contributed to this thread.

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CONFOUND THOSE PESKY STARCRAFT HOOLIGANS

RUINING THE GENRE FOR US GLORIOUS 12 APM UNDERSTANDERS OF STRATEGY

>>383988026
It was one of the first RTS games that I personally played that gave you the feeling that the units are not just mindless grunts.

Not saying it is perfect, just that it is an interesting idea that could be explored further.

>>383988026
>ES/2 was disappointing.
I disagree, ES2 fixed most of my issues with ES1

>>383988123
not to be a dick, but this is kinda the point people make yes, strat games shouldnt just be about APM, the strategy side of things is almost nonexistent

>>383988430
>the strategy side of things is almost nonexistent
if you are talking about Broodwar then you are very, very wrong

>>383988585
can you elaborate?

>>383988127
I didn't feel that the first ES had issues.
I thought the entire game was an issue. Every single part fell flat for me.
While ES2 was obviously a better product in nearly every way, compared to what Amplitude are capable of:(Endless Legend, heck even Dungeon of the Endless was interesting and challenging to figure out.) ES2 still was just too flat.

>>383988125
Yeah compared to most others around the time morale doesn't really enter the equation. I was more familiar with morale as a system from other titles before I played DoW though, and I just kinda took it as par for the course.

I think it is a consequence of the standard RTS formula that you can't do too much with morale, especially not without it seeming really contrived and too much realism in one area while others are lacking.
But it really just felt like a debuff that you would see floating in an upper corner in WoW or something to me. Not bad but very clearly just a number. Only acknowledged on a gameplay level.

Even in TW(especially as the series progressed), while the effects of morale failure are far more meaningful and satisfying. And that it's something that can really help you appreciate the difference between a levy and an elite unit; without individual unit identify in a game like XCOM or something, it's still is mostly acknowledged as a modifier. You don't really manage it. You just deal with the consequences of it.

>>383988430
The compounding issue is the problem of MP. Difficulty is only ever as hard as your opponent is skilled at the game.
Like in Supcom, in a hypothetical borefest, where both sides boom and share equal map control, the person with better ability to macro(which requires some, but not much micro) will almost always win, (with the only exception really being a pure luck based snipe).
In BW high APM will wreck low APM, with no exceptions.
But as long as people share equal ability in the skill set of game X, it is often strategic decisions that decide the match.

>>383988635
Building placement, army composition, intelligence, troop positioning, windows of opportunity and mind games all play a HUGE part in Brood War.

Shine in ASL season 3 is the perfect example of a player with lesser APM fucking shit up because of his outlandish strategies.

>>383988635
Not that poster but, build orders, counters, decisions of when to boom and when to rush, when to expand, a proper reaction to scouting, how you act in absence of scouting(if your opponent defends against it), if your opponent prevents scouting, a decision made as to whether or not it is important to address this, decision making to accept a base trade scenario or not, caution towards ambushes or not, general cheese build orders and faking out when you're scouted, herding your opponent's units and moving your own to best offer an engagement.

And most importantly, all of these simultaneously.

To offer a few examples.

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What the FUCK happened bros????

CoH2 was going GREAT until those Blizzbullies paid everyone not to play it!
Then they paid the devs of Grey Goo to fuck up to keep the genre dead!
Then they forced Relic at gunpoint to make DoW3 shit!

And now the Broodwar remaster is going to outsell EVERYTHING else! It's NOT FAIR

>>383988691
>heck even Dungeon of the Endless was interesting and challenging to figure out
I liked that ES2 was an oldschool MoO2 styled space 4x. We haven't had a good one of those in forever, not on the level of ES2.

Not every game needs to be as experimental as Dungeon of the Endless or, to a lesser extent, Endless Legend.

I fucking loved Dungeon of the Endless btw

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>>383986971

The Wargame series aced the design, shame Steel Division isn't more popular

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It's a shame RTS games never let us design detailed AI behavior for all units.

>>383989048
yeah these guys clearly know shit about the masterpiece that was starcraft 1, not because you played a few games and we unable to make 6 scv that you know the deep of starcraft.

this game required mad skill, and it easily the best games i have ever played, many great pro gamer were under 150 apm.

for me that clearly still the best strategy games, were someone good can win 100-0 not because of his apm, but skill.

>>383987248
Morale, and "Tying up" ranged units are the reason Dawn of War was a good game.

>>383989239
I don't get the last 3 attack commands at the bottom

>>383989220
>make games about cold war era spiraling into modern time conflict
>then switch up back to boring as shit ww2
The only thing that keeps Steel Division afloat is all the paradox autists, game itself is shit and doesn't hold candle to Wargame in any shape or form.

man I'd killed just to have a decent successor to World in Conflict

>>383986534

Totally stealing that idea for my RTS I'm never going to make.

>>383989428
It's a priority list. If someone is attacking Panelo, target him. If Panelo is safe, target the one attacking Fran. If Fran is safe too, just attack whoever has the highest HP.

>>383989406
And the fact that it was one of the first RTS games to use actual squads

>>383989441
>World in Conflict
mah negro

wargame doesn't hold a candle to the fun WiC offered in MP

>>383989502
>have ideas for games
>Write entire documents going into level structures, designs and all the gameplay basics
>Never have the drive to make sprites/models or code

Shit sucks.

>>383989518
>It's a priority list.
That much I get, but wouldn't it be beneficial to focus on the lowest HP foe to have the party focus fire?

>people complaining about apm

it's real time, go play turn based if you don't want apm

>>383989092
I hated CoH2 in the open beta. I tried it again like once a year after that and I still hated it.

Company of Heroes is one of my favorite RTS games of all time and probably tied with BroodWar and Supcom for playtime. I still find it great to this day.

I have no idea how CoH2 dropped the ball.
Like I literally do not understand, it must be down to very minute balancing dictating the pace of the game and the options available that just means it plays so much worse.

I had no hopes for any Relic product for reasons as above leading into DoW 3. It's disappointing to be right.

Also hopefully the best thing to come out of a BW remaster will be SC2 toss players going to a magical world of actual APM without colossus and forcefields.

>>383989116
Endless Space 2 was fine, I did enjoy myself playing it(as opposed to the first game). But I just couldn't keep playing it past a point. I expect to go back after a couple of DLC and enjoy myself again. I only said disappointing when you place it against Legend.

>>383989406
Are you referring to CCing ranged units with melee combat? That was quite nice, if never balanced perfectly, like Volksgrenadiers vs Riflemen in CoH was.

Total War offers the same things with a longer history of refinement, especially the distinction between melee and ranged.

>>383989563
Ideas-guys to developers ratio is like 100k:1, ain't nothing new.

>>383989595
I haven't touched the game in question but the application of DPS and other abilities in fights varies a ton depending on the fight.
Depending on the mechanics of the game with ammunition(mana) and the tools available to replenish it, keeping X alive for reason Y could definitely be a vastly superior decision to systematic focus fire. It still probably employs focus fire, just making sure that Z remains clear. Especially if lethality is high and a healer is all you have against enemy quantity.

>>383989662
>Real Time Strategy:
>game focuses around APM
>Turn Based Strategy:
>game focuses around AP
what did they mean by this?

>>383989563
This. I have written assets for at least a half-dozen games, rough drafts of story boards and all sorts of mechanics that I think would make a half-decent game, but have no ability with coding and such whatsoever.
I've adapted a few of them into /tg/ shit, but it's not the same.

>>383989920
>>383989563
learn coding you lazy fucks

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>Kane's Wrath is probably the culmination of the multiplayer RTS formula
>tfw it went under everyone's radar and never got any traction

>>383990086
where do I start?

>>383989794
coh 2 is great, kill yourself

>>383986971
>>383989220
Wargame is not an RTS you fucking idiots.

>>383990145
Read SICP.

>>383990531

You control an army of military units in real time

>B-b-b-but basebuilding

Go play a city builder if you want that.

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>an RTS thread

Good. Can someone explain to me why we don't like this game?

I haven't had this much fun since the original Supreme Commander (and since Total Annihilation before that).

>>383986104
>having to micro workers is bad
>having to micro economy is good

>>383990336
Hey, I want to like it but I just can't.

Have you played the first game too? Much?
Do you think 2 is the better?

>>383990698
To be honest, I didn't get into it because it ran like total shit on my machine.

>>383990832
yes and yes. the UI improvements and true sight alone should be enough for you. if you still think coh 1 is better, you must be a huge nostalgiafaggot or something

>>383990698
It is an amazing game, but I feel the distinct lack of humans somewhat off-putting. I just can't get erect during an RTS at the thought of mindless machines shooting at each other. I need human lives as cannon fodder.

>>383986104
>Starcraft, CnC: more clicking, less thinking
t. never ever reached diamond

>>383990885

You should try it now. It's gotten a lot of optimization fixes and runs a lot smoother now than it used to for me.

That being said, this is not a game where it's shameful to turn the settings down at all.

>>383990939

Supreme Commander and Total Annihilation were always about that bot-on-bot action though.

>>383990920
Again, I said I have difficulty explaining it. It's really weird for me. I think it must be the match ups and how well they were balanced. Wehrmacht vs US was silky smooth. So was Panzer Elite. Only British were kind of awkward.

No faction in 2 feels as good.

>>383990939
That's pretty weird. Just think about is as effects on humanity.
An entire planet can be strip mined for no reason other than to throw off your opponent. Human ideals are clashing and everything is human designed. Nothing is spared the touch of war and at the end there will be fuck all for human habitation.

>>383986534
>>383989502

That's a gimmick and useless for most RTS games.

>>383989662
The problem with APM is it's the deciding factor. The Real-time far outweighs the strategy. If one side is really good at strategy and the other side is really good at real time AKA has high APM, high APM wins every time.

>>383991225
>Just think about is as effects on humanity.

This was actually a pretty good argument. I might try the game again thanks to this.

>>383986534
Warcraft 3 had that but nobody remembers because it was a pretty useless mechanic 2bh.

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>>383990985
>You didn't get to Diamond? You can't criticize the game.
>If you didn't like the game why did you play for 100+ hours?

>>383991247
>The problem with APM is it's the deciding factor.
200apm can and do win against 300apm very often.

You obviously need a certain amount of baseline actions per minute, but that's fine, it's a REAL TIME strategy game afterall. You may as well be the greatest strategical genius of all time, but you need to be able to translate that into the game. No use if you can't execute your god tier thoughts.

>>383987558
>they were never big enough in multiplayer for anything to get too refined
It's the other way around: they weren't balanced for multiplayer in any way until Red Alert 2. And when that came out, its competition was already far out of reach.

>>383987719
Outpost 2 had a day-night cycle. Your vehicles moved at half-speed during the night, unless they turned on their headlights, but that also made them pop-up your enemy's minimap. This made stealthfully advancing your armies during the night a good idea, as well as setting up patrols to catch enemy movements. You could also build light-towers to illuminate specific parts of the map. Because you're playing across the surface of a planet, the day-night cycle traveled west to east, so part of the field is in daylight and part would be in night. This made being west of someone an advantage, as you could advance with the moving darkness instead of against it, but that was nullified on the large maps that wrapped around end-to-end.

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>>383991337
>You didn't get to Diamond? You can't criticize the game.
Well, obviously. Because you don't know shit about the game and utter shit like this
>more clicking, less thinking

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>>383991392
The problem is the barrier to entry. I mean 200APM vs 300APM is one thing, but how many people can get up to 200apm? Broodwar came out in 1998 and had a teen rating. If you were 13 in 1998, the minimum age to play broodwar, can you still get 200APM at 32?
Are there any Broodwar players who have been playing it since launch, and are into their 30s/early 40s?

>>383991629
But that is true.
If one side is really good at strategy and the other side is really good at real time AKA has high APM, high APM wins every time.
The hyperactive teenager beats the real life 4-star general every time

>>383991794
>who is firebathero, flash, jaedong, bisu etc
>what was entirety of kespa
>what is gsl resurrecting broodwar

>>383991794
well, Shine is a married man with a job who has 2 kids and he made it to the finals to play against the god of starcraft himself. However he is still only 26, so there's that.

>>383991874
the ability to execute your plan is just as important as the plan itself

>>383991874
>implying the 4 star general isn't going to have some subordinate sitting in front of him executing his orders

>>383991874

That's because games like Starcraft have very little on-the-fly strategic thinking, if you want to get good you go online and read step by step instructions on the optimum "strats" to carry out, memorise build orders and practice carrying them out as quick as possible.

>>383986104

Excessive micromanagement is usually what makes me walk away from an RTS

>>383992074
>That's because games like Starcraft have very little on-the-fly strategic thinking, if you want to get good you go online and read step by step instructions on the optimum "strats" to carry out, memorise build orders and practice carrying them out as quick as possible.

True enough, but that's no longer wargaming, moar like Data Entry.

>>383991794
that's not a barrier to entry

We need rts to move to a time frame like a civ/TW game, rather than 20 to 60 minutes.

So basically more 4x

>>383991874
Thing is you can't really compare rts with real life warfare, like you seriously can't. Also youth minds can and often will surprise veterans because they are not yet entirely molded by the system, hell it happened in competitive broodwar on multiple occasions, read up flash background for example.

It is not a bad thing, that's how life progresses.

>>383990698
that game fucking sucked, generic as hell

>>383986945
I feel that multiplayer makes strategy games much more fun and dynamic, but not 1v1.

>>383992214
Why do you think gooks are so good at it

>>383992259
why?

>>383988430
God damnit you fucking asshats as your stupid fucking casualness.
You think the requirement for APM somehow retracts from "strategy".
What is strategy to you? The hell do you think separates a bad player from a good one? Just muh apm?
You think the way forward is to REDUCE apm requirements, when in fact what you're after is an INCREASE in apm requirements.
The need for apm makes it so that a player will have to PRIORITIZE and make DECISIONS on what he wants to do.
Whereas casualizing the gameplay by removing various apm requirements will not only slow down the game - it'll also make it incredibly uncreative.

>>383992214

It isn't "like" data entry, it IS data entry.

You know who else aside from competitive Starcraft players measure their ability in actions per minute? Secretaries, people who write down what other people are saying and therefore must be able to knock out a certain amount of words per minute.

>>383987719

Check out Northgard. They have periodic earthquakes/blizzards/rat infestations, that affect the players lumber/food, effectively gimping the player for a short period.

>>383990698
Because all the units behave the same and you're incredibly limited as a player because of the limited unit variety.

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>>383991993
Firebathero is under 30, was 10 when it came out, and has been retired for a bit
Flash is 24, he was 5 years old when Broodwar came out
Jaedong was 8 when Broodwar came out
Bisu was also 8 when Broodwar came out.

>>383992350
If you want to play an execution-intensive game that's what real action games are for: Cave games, beat em ups, figthing games, twitch shooters.

The S in RTS stands for strategy, which is the most important thing. If you can actually win with inferior strategy through better APM (or if the strategy is very shallow) than it's a bad RTS.

>>383992350
if there's less benefit from intensely babysitting all your individual units at all times, you can spend more effort on actual strategy shit

>>383992576
AND THE RT STANDS FOR REAL TIME
GO PLAY FUCKING TURN BASED STRATEGY GAMES YOU DUMB FUCKING SLUT

>>383992032
Sure, and I get that
But do you need 80apm to "execute a plan" or 200apm?

>>383992632
And if you're actually good at the game - you can do all of it - Get this through your dumb fucking head.
High APM requirements does NOT remove strategic aspects of a game.

>>383991874
>But that is true.
>high APM wins every time.
It is, factually, not.

I can play first 5 minutes of the game by looking only at the minimap. I bet some KeSPA players can play a whole match eyes closed. 70% of the time you play RTS you look at the minimap.

When I played smurfed in platinum I played couple of games using only my mouse. APM means nothing, assuming you know how to play the game. Examples are WhiteRa, sjow and Goody.

>>383992074
And that's the entire complaint
That it's not strategy.

>>383992675
How about 5 apm? Boy I sure love playing a videogame that plays itself.

>>383992639

Real time doesn't mean lighting fast, it's possible to make a real time game where the action is slow enough that you don't need 200APM to win. Wargame is a great example, you can play it with like 10 apm and win, the focus is on understanding terrain, unit movement and reconaissance far more than on making decisions fast. The slow pace actually increases the amount of strategy since both you and the opponent have time to look at the map in full and make plans and counter-plans rather than having to adhere to a set script that's determined by which faction you're playing.

>>383992708
they do displace them if you're just a regular guy

>>383992261
When it comes to turn based strategy games, 4-star generals CAN beat hyperactive teenagers

>>383992830
Then go play on your level.
God fucking damnit - if you want to be skilled at the game - then fucking put in the effort - but don't cry at people being better than you because they took it to a higher level that you couldn't.

>>383992821
Then what the hell are you complaining about?
There's already games catering to your slow-ass. Leave the skilled games to the skilled players.

>>383992830
120 to 150 apm are very achievable even for someone in their 30s (like me)

That's just about 1 action per hand per second, not that much faster than the global cooldown in World of Warcraft.

The difficulty comes from knowing wtf to do and when.

>>383992723
If you had any replays of this I'd love to see them so we could put this argument to rest

>>383992214
>implying that's not what actual real life warfare is spiraling into
As soon as we get enough computing power warfare will be a data entry solved in case by case basis. Ingenuity and surprises can be largely solved if you can do educated guesses on enemy resources and their available application.

>>383992940
the thing they are better at is clicking fast. it's not something I particularly want to be good at. I'd probably never play rts games if there were more turn based

>>383993076
>. Ingenuity and surprises can be largely solved if you can do educated guesses on enemy resources and their available application.
source?

>>383993105
>the thing they are better at is clicking fast.
Just keep telling yourself that. Just stick to playing against the AI and feel good about your superior strategy.

>>383992821
You don't need 200APM unless you're playing against top tier Korean pro gamers. Stop making shit up.

>>383993187
nice strawman there reddit, you have no idea what you're talking about. maybe you should calm down

>>383993028
The point of the thread is to discuss what makes a good RTS. He put up an actual arguement for why APM being importaint distracts from strategy.

Like another annon said. The "skill" you are talking about is the skill of secretaries and data entry. It's nothing to be proud of. In contrast strategic thinking, resource managment, planning, prediction, that's the skill of the guy who employs the secretary. In other words, the real skill to be proud of.

Imagine telling a real army that he has "no skill" because he can't dictate his commands at 200 WPM, but his secratary does have "skill" because she can type at 200 WPM. This effectivily the thought process of Starcraft autistics.

>>383992821
I'm assuming you're attacking Starcraft, as that seems to be the preferred complaint amongst you shitters.
If you want to play multiplayer then it's your ability to play the game versus your opponents. Having the game allow for upwards of 300 apm before it becomes impossible to do more is not a negative thing.
It just means that the better player will demolish the inferior player since the game is not restricting his potential.
What you want is for everyone to be playing with handicaps so that you can go toe to toe with the best.
Starcraft can be played with 1 apm if you so please, you're just not going to win a whole lot of mulitplayer matches. Stick to singleplayer.

>>383993330
Yes, the point of the thread is indeed what makes a good RTS, and it seems that most of you idiots are trying to apply TBS elements to RTS - I'd say you're in the wrong thread.

>
Imagine telling a real army that he has "no skill" because he can't dictate his commands at 200 WPM, but his secratary does have "skill" because she can type at 200 WPM. This effectivily the thought process of Starcraft autistics.
I didn't quite understand that, can you turn it into a food analogy?

>>383993330
Wise.

>>383993372
your post made me wonder about an RTS where your command points are also a resource

Maybe game starts out with 10 command points and every minute you get the full 10 command points back so you can never issue more than 10 commands per minute.

Later on maybe you can upgrade this cap to 20 commands per minute.

Even if it's a shit mechanic, at least it would be something unique.

>>383992821
>Wargame is a great example, you can play it with like 10 apm and win

And that's how i know you didn't play it on a high level. Wargame is not as frantic in it's micro like SC is, but it requires a shit ton lot of it nevertheless, including the kind of micro that people preach about the most, babysitting units, in fact Wargame is mostly about babysitting units.

You will absolutely need to babysit your superheavies and micro the shit out of your inventory in cities. You will absolute need to have a high spatial awareness to not get your shit pushed in by some SAS drop on your base, getting your artillery sniped by ATACAMS or losing your PATRIOTs to some SEAD planes. You will absolutely need to be able to smoke positions on reaction, use fighters on moments notice and be on point with logistics and reinforcements.

>>383993330
>The "skill" you are talking about is the skill of secretaries and data entry
It's not the only skill required for Starcraft, is it? You need to both be fast as shit and understand the game mechanics.

>>383993579
so you want a turn based strategy?

>>383993579
Sure it would, but that's essentially already what apm is.
apm IS a resource, and it's up to the player to delegate where he invest this resource. A good RTS game allows for a player to NEVER be able to reach a point where he has "enough" apm.
A good game does not restrain the player - it should instead strive to always have something for him to do.

>>383993579
>Even if it's a shit mechanic, at least it would be something unique.
If it's shit, then maybe it should be avoided.

>another impotent RTS babbies thread with retarded ideas guys level of ideas complaining about Starcraft and going muh apm but still hate on turn based
heh

>>383993960
this is a retarded shitposter level post

>>383993960
We have this thread almost weekly by now, and it always devolves into the same shit because people have such a hateboner for starcraft and muh apm.
Casuals ruin everything.

>>383993687
It's not a very mechanic intensive game.

Once everyone has memorized all the strategies and build orders all that's left is execution, aka APM.

>>383993732
A turn based strategy gives you as much time a you want to think. An RTS limits the amount of time you have to think. So what is he basically saying is that he wants the winner to be the one with the best strategy, not the best mouse clicking skills (it is a strategy game after all). If you want a game that measures who has the best action skills that's what street fighter and quake are for.

Limiting the amount of actions you can give per minute actually makes there be even more strategy since you have to pick and choose. What do you want? Micromanagement your infantry that are already engaged, produce a new tank, or change the pathing on your scouts.

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>>383986104

RTS and fighting games share the same problem, that people think you have to devote your whole life to it.

>>383994236
so again what you are looking for is a turn based strategy with a timer.

real time will always have a need for mechanical skill due to time being a resource itself.

>>383994236
So a TBS, alright - you might be in the wrong thread though.

>>383994236
AGAIN WITH THE FUCKING HIGH APM = NO STRATEGY BULLSHIT

>>383994236
refer to >>383993778

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>>383993579

Have a look at this, it's an asymmetric simultaneous TBS. Both teams issue commands and then those are carried it in real time. The catch is that the ability to issue commands fast is also simulated. The length of time a single "turn" lasts for each team is different and increases as the chaos of battle goes up, as electronic warfare is used, as the officers are killed, etc.

Pretty cool

>>383986104
kill self

>>383986104
What you need then is a simulation, not RTS.
I'm sure you would love Banished

>>383994236
>A turn based strategy gives you as much time a you want to think
Most competitive TBS games have turn timer, fairly strict one at that. Those that don't are basically operations scale wargames with shit graphics made for military autists to play armchair generals in.

Also shit that you want exist, it's called Combat Mission, but you won't ever play it, and if you do you will uninstall in a few minutes.

>>383991308
I recently got the itch for W3 and played around 300 ladder games as Night Elf and you can easily outmaneuver the enemy at night time. It's not a mechanic as he described it, but it's not as useless as you think. Night time outright creates a big advantage for Night Elves in the early to mid game, even more so if you're good at micro.

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I was hoping this thread was going to be about the Starcraft Vs Command And Conquer build style. The requirement of a influence cone to build new stuff, vs the ability to instantly build stuff. So getting an engineer into an enemy building and immediately dropping an obelisk of light to wreak havoc in their base

>>383990127
I really wish more RTS games had sub factions like in Kane's Wrath

>>383992350
They want slower games so their deficiencies are not so noticeable, I mean... look at this guy >>383992259 Can you imagine playing stracraft, warcraft, aoe 1v1 for 3 or 4 hours? And not a single and rare game from time to time but every single match. What they want it's an artificial/forced way to slow fast players so they can have a chance.

>>383998284
It's so ludicrous. Have you tried playing Wc3 or Sc2 with the "slower/fast"-speed setting?
It's to fall asleep for.

>>383986104
probably already memed on but
>stronghold
>total war
>rts
top kek

>>383992821
>Real time doesn't mean lighting fast

It doesnt mean slow faggot either.

>In contrast strategic thinking, resource managment, planning, prediction

I'm sure guys like Warcraft3 pro gamers dont have any of that. They are just fast!

>>383992350
Strategy is a long-time plan. You're describing tactics.

>>384001354
You fags just come up with all kinds of new description for things, don't you?

okw = fags

>>383989441
>>383989546
You are so right.
That game is an underrated gem.
The feels from the two campaigns were awesome, and crazy MP shenanigans were top notch.
I fucking loved the aesthetic too.

The other series that I loved to play LAN with my hombres was soldiers/men of war
Though each one was pretty much the same game, and I could never figure out what exactly a "reach zone" was.