What did he mean by this?

Too much of an obsession with having the healing mechanic make sense from a lore perspective. Core mechanics shouldn't be at the mercy of lore compatibility.

>>383961259
I don't see where the problem is

Healing blood. You smash the bottle into your thigh. The glass breaks and cuts your skin, allowing the healing blood to enter your body.

Why did from soft go back to shitty healing systems? this was fixed in dark souls

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>>383961852
Bloodborne isn't dark souls. You don't have even remotely enough time to stop and use an estus flask during a BB boss fight, and a lot of the bosses are hard and fast enough to kill you when you're in the process of healing and still have 15 vials left in your reserve

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>>383961852
>>383962945

>>383963389
You're really bad ad this.

>>383961852

they don't like dark soul's healing system, and I agree with them

estus by nature is not a resource, it's more of an extended health bar. this means that estus by its design requires you to play defensively, because health lost is lost for good. this is why DaS2 introduced life gems in an attempt to make the game less passive.

this system was probably tried with bloodborne and made the game shit so they scrapped it and brought back DeS grass

>>383961171
Miyazaki thought he could bring Demon's Souls grasses back in an efficient way but he ended up making a shitty consumable system that forces everyone but the 20% gitgud soulsfags to grind the fuck out of this shit in every new area to progress the story.
thankfully it was an exclusive so its sales got boosted as a system seller, otherwise people would have settled for DS2 instead.
lifegems were a good crutch for beginners but halfway in they started to suck so bad you couldn't rely on them even against mobs

>>383962945
You know that it wouldn't have to be a literal 1:1 carryover of estus, right? The only thing that would need to be carried over is that healing items replenish after death or after coming out of a lantern. The point is to remove the grind. No, I don't care that you personally didn't have to grind, there is the =potential= to have to grind and that's what matters, it's a flaw in the system, a needless flaw.

>estus by nature is not a resource, it's more of an extended health bar

That's how almost ALL healing items work, and it still applies 100% to Blood Vials. If anything it's MORE true of Blood Vials because you have more of them and they have a much faster animation.

The reason DaS is more defensive is because it's inherently designed that way. Your character is slower, a lot of enemies have poise and can't just be staggered to death, you have shields (that are actually reliable), there's more traps, there's more status effects to deal with, dodging is generally slower, healing is slower, there's no rally system, etc.

>>383964196
second part was meant for >>383963531

>>383961171
I didn't have any problems with them until the last 2 bosses of the DLC. I used pretty much all of mine on Maria then only had a few left for OoK, who I tried once but when I ran out put the game down because I didn't want to farm for vials.

>>383964456
with the amount of cash you'd be getting in the fishing hamlet you could afford over a hundred vials in a couple of runs around that area

>>383964119
>>383964196
You only have to grind for vials at the very beginning of the game, when you are trying to beat Gascoigne and Cleric Beast. You can use up like 15 vials in one failed attempt against Gascoigne. After you've beaten them, you will start to have a big stockpile of blood vials, especially from ones that you just buy with the leftover blood echoes you have after leveling up.

If you get stuck on Gascoigne it can definitely be a grind for blood vials, yes, which is why every enemy in Central Yharnam drops them. Central Yharnam is like the tutorial area. But it's really not like that in the later areas. For mid-
to end-game bosses you just buy them whenever you need them, because defeating a couple of strong enemies gives enough currency to buy like 20 of them.

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>>383964651
yeah but

Any time I had left over echoes after leveling, I just spent the rest on vials. Never ran out.

>>383964839
>after X point in the game you'll stop burning through vials
>after X point in the game it will get easier trust me :^)
no it's not. you are not a normie

>>383964456
Surprisingly didn't have too many problems on Maria or OoK. Took them both down in two and one tries (respectively).
Maria is easy to Parry, and Orphan... not sure how I was able to do it.
Now Ludwig and Laurence were complete assholes for me.

>>383964849
These things are extra fucking bullshit.

Not only are they a pain with thier instant attacks, im fine with enemies being hard, having to bait out the slower attacks to parry.

Except they put every single of these things with some sort of another enemy, so guess what, the strategy is then just to run past the the fucking things because there's absoluely no point unless you want Maria's weapon.

>>383964849

Only the well sharks are hard, and that's only if you don't use shaman bone blade.

I used up over 400 vials the first time I fought Orphan of Kos, no joke. It was on New Game plus and he could kill me in two hits every time even though I had 50 Vitality

>>383965737
I laugh when I see people complain about Maria's weapon being hard to get
that room is literally the place to get revenge on these cheap bastards, you just bait both out and use a single shaman bone blade, then enjoy the show. if you can't beat them, then you'll enjoy the sight of seeing all that cheapness turning against itself

>>383962945
He was probably b talking about the fact that is inconvinent and annoying to run out of them wheras in dark souls you get them for resting at the bonfire.

>muh FARMING

If you weren't shit, you wouldn't have to farm for vials. Some food for thought.

>>383965529

Not him but Gascoigne is pretty much the only wall in the game, especially for newbies. Most bosses after him are pretty underwhelming, and players will have more paths to choose on top of more weapons to suit their playstyle and more places to grind for souls and levels. It's a shitty system, but its shittiness is emphasized a lot more during the opening hours.

>>383968541
For good players blood vials make the game too easy. Having access to 20 near instant heals from the start of the game makes it way easier than dark souls where every bonfire started with 5 and required humanties to upgrade.

>>383969013
nah, you can cheese Gascoigne pretty easily with the axe, which also happens to be the most popular choice among normies

>>383968541
>punishing players that aren't good

I don't understand this, normie picks up bloodborne , enjoys it but isn't that good at it and he's forced to grind up vials to get shit done. Meanwhile I can just run through the game just using some of the vials I pick up, it's just not beginner friendly.

>>383961171
>in-game lore tells people love the shit out of BloodVials
>you sip those fuckers up like no tomorrow

WOAH

>>383969253
I'm pretty terrible at SoulsBorne, and I didn't ever have to grind for vials.

Beyond that I find it funny that you are literally complaining that a game doesn't cater enough to normies.

>>383969598
>Beyond that I find it funny that you are literally complaining that a game doesn't cater enough to normies.

But even if you changed it back to the estus style system it would still be a game not marketed to normies. It would have been a small concession in a game that is quite frankly probably the best of this generation.

>>383969308
I don't think people understand just how obsessed Yharnamites were with Blood. Like everything in their society revolved around Blood. Blood ended up overtaking alcohol in Yharnam cities. Yharnamites are ridiculously xenophobic and believe outsiders just being in the city defiles their blood. And none of the townspeople seem to notice that Beast Scourges always erupt wherever the Blood is because they're too drunk on Blood to care.

>>383969253
>game punishes poor gameplay, rewards good gameplay
I don't see the issue.

>>383969741
But why would that even be necessary? You said that you didn't need to farm for vials, so why would you care if it was the vial system or the estus system?

>>383964196

You miss the part where enemies drop nlood vials and you find vials as you play, allowing you to easily replenish your supply so that taking damage isn't a run-long punishment that requires you to restart the area.

The dark souls games are gauntlets where you run out of resources and stopping is mandatory. bloodborne isnt, you can literally play indefinitely with the right equipment and runes. bloodborne would be shit if it had dark souls healing system.

Being able to replenish your healing items, just on its own, has a monumentally drastic effect on such a large number of aspects of the gameplay that papers could be written on the topic.

If vials did not drop, and you had to rest to replenosh your supply, bloodborne would be a remarkably different game, and a worse one for it.

>>383969891
That's the thing, I don't care myself. In fact I kept the coldbloods just in case I do lose enough vials that I need more.

But I'd prefer people that aren't that good have a better time with the game. Espeically in this trade-in kind of culture it's the one thing that will make someone take it back a week after they've bought it (I have normie friends that will literally do this with games that they find too hard).

Also, not necessarily the estus system but something to stop people from grinding them.

>>383965027
Ding ding ding, im pretty sure this is what they expected you to do too there is not much else to spend them on. Levels, upgrades, vials, bullets/mollies/etc in that order.

>>383969045

Healing in bb and das are completely different gameplay concepts and designed completely differently, the number one point being that in bb you are going to take damage

>>383970154

The estus system literally wouldn't work properly with this game

There seems to be a lot of different flavors of Old Blood

Old Blood = Blood direct from the Great Ones. Used in communion by Healing Church high ranking members. Who ironically end up turning into the worst beasts

Blood Vials = cheap shit you can get on the street corner used to heal minor injuries

Blood Saint's blood = blood circulating through Blood Saints, female nun that were experimented on by the Healing Church in an attempt to remove the negative side effects of Old Blood. Works pretty well if you ignore how many nuns straight up die from the experiments

Vileblood = Blood used by Cainhurst nobles. If Arianna really is connected to the Vilebloods then their blood is alarmingly similar to the Old Blood. Healing Church members HATE this bloodline for some reason.

You also had choir members creating artificial blood. Probably more attempts at utlizing blood without the negative side effects of beasthood. Too bad Iosefka was so far up her own ass with ascending to godhood that she didn't realize she had the holy grail in her lab.

>>383970154
I'm sorry, but catering to the mindset you describe is one of the things destroying games today. If you aren't good at a game you shouldn't be rewarded, you should be forced to increase your skill. The idea that a game shouldn't be difficult in any way is what is driving everything to being developed as a pseudo-walking simulator with a "cinematic experience."

Certainly there are games that are too difficult to be considered enjoyable by newcomers (like some of the crazy kaizo Mario hacks), but Bloodborne is absolutely not one of them.

>>383961171
My guess would be to encourage players to use the attack healing mechanic and play more aggressively as opposed to popping tons of healing items, punishing players who chug by forcing them to grind for healing items.

I understand why people who are used to the three cannon souls games wouldn't like that though because all three include infinitely replenishing healing items and have a different play style.

>>383970935
People really underestimate what Rally brings to the table. The game wants you to be on aggression at all times. The one shield that was in the base game basically has a description that reads "fuck shields."

>>383970701

>If you aren't good at a game you shouldn't be rewarded, you should be forced to increase your skill.

Grinding for vials doesn't take skill.

>>383971427
The grinding is not the test, it's the disincentive which is meant to force the player to alter their strategy to one which minimizes or eliminates said disincentive. That alteration is supposed to be increased aggressive play and use of parries, which allow you to avoid chugging down healing items which then incurs the disincentive punishment of grinding.

It really shouldn't be that difficult to grasp.

>consuming blood
beasts are like werewolves and hunters are like vampires

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>>383971934
The blood turned them into beasts anon.

>>383971608

>That alteration is supposed to be increased aggressive play and use of parries
Blood vials don't do anything about this. At the end of the day, the only way you're going to get good at the game is to hit the enemy more and get hit by the enemy less. Blood vials change absolutely nothing about that system, except they make you have to grind when you're stuck on a boss, and make going through regular levels much easier because sloppy play doesn't mean you have to consume an extremely limited resource.

>>383970686

The blood strain seems to be based off of the great one it was sourced from, and transforms people based off of that.

Oedon = the old blood, sourced from the tombs, cherished by the pthumerians and the vilebloods. A very special blood, the blood of the formless one seems to grant deific properties.

Brain of mensis = blood developed by the church itself through experimentation and research. The church wanted to put eyes in their brains, and created this. The brain of mensis itself seems to be a manmade entity.

Moon presence = likely what is known as pale blood, it seems to be the blood of choice in yharnam, turning people into beasts.

Ebrietas = ebrietas actually seems to be a matured version of the orphans of Oedon that are born, meaning she likely has the same strain of blood. Nonetheless the choir seems to have birthed the emissaries from researching her.

Amygdala = people in byrgenwerth have obviously been taking the blood of amygdala

Kos = seems to turn people into fish.

How do I make an Arcane character?

Seems like it would be shit early game.

>>383972323

Except for the part where the healing system and how people react to it directly affects how people play the game.

Knowing you get a static 10 estus, and that you will not get more until you die or restart the are, GREATLY endorses an extremely passive playstyle.

Knowing that you can get more healing items as you play, that enemies will drop more healing items for you that replenishes your current supply, and that the number of which is completely unaffected by death or breaks, limits the benefits of defensive playstyles.

Add on rally healing and you have a system that actively encourages you to take damage. Bloodborne slightly rewards you for taking damage the way it worls now.

Can you imagine the estus system in a game where you are expected to be taking damsge? The system wouldnt work.

>>383972409
The blood of choice in Yharnam would have been Ebrietas' as she was the main source. As no one seems to know what paleblood is I think its very likely that no one has taken MP's blood.

>>383972727
You need to get blood gems. Its not that hard, just use STR weapons (with your STR being at its minimum requirement to equip your weapons) until you can get some fire gems from the final boss of the first chalice dungeon and from that brainsucker under the abandoned hunter's workshop / cathedral ward.

You could just go like 25 STR + 50 ARC for split damage weapons like the wheel and the moonlight sword and use the 50 ARC for all your elemental weapons you converted with gems. You can level to 25 STR early to make early game easier

>>383972727
Get the Saw Spear on the sewers and rely on molotovs for the very early game and then get the flamesprayer from gilbert as soon as you can, you can melt almost everyone down with it while you don't get your main weapons and spells.
Or if you want to dip a bit into skill use the the threaded cane to help with the early game.

>>383973361
Cool, should be able to do that. Thanks.

>>383973294

The blood of kin wouldnt be turning people into wolves though. Moon presence is the only great one with any resemblance to beasts.

Remember that laurence had made contact with the MP alongside gehrman.

>>383972727
Preparation and exploiting weaknesses. Its actually not that bad to start one. Early on you'd be playing normally until you kill the BSB and can get access to chalice dungeons that can drop fire radials and the brainsucker guarding a waning fire gem. You then build your first elemental weapon(fire) that would ideally have a 2x radial and 1 waning to slot all 3 gems(the 2 saw weapons and LHB have this configuration). At that point you're all set to go and further progression would be getting better gems for fire and the rest of the elements. Knowledge of what enemies are weak to(ie: Beast get shit on by serrated + fire) would also help a lot

Are your eyes truly open?

The philosophical idea of gaining more eyes is about seeing on higher dimensional planes. Just like how having two eyes allows you to percieve the depth of the third dimension, the nurture of the third eye allows comprehension of an even higher plane. With more eyes, a comprehension even greater than that.

The sky and kos are one. The sky little more than the great lake of mud

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Just a reminder that Micolash did nothing wrong

>>383974254
>Kosm
ftfy

also the quote is "the sky and the cosmos are one" So I guess they were referring to the actual cosmos.

>>383973086

I thought games shouldn't reward you for being bad? That's exactly what blood vials are. All this talk about aggressive playstyle is just an excuse for sloppy play, because much faster, more complex games like Ninja Gaiden and DMC expect you to play aggressively without a continuous stream of healing items to lean on. Blood vials go against the idea of rallying because they tell the player that they don't need to hit the enemy back since they'll probably just drop a vial after they die anyways. Rallying would work better with a limited resource since it'd be a small window of opportunity to get the health that they lost back.

Furthermore, blood vials don't work for bosses either, because unlike enemies which can easily be stunlocked, most bosses don't give a shit about your weapon. There's some level of incentive to play aggressively during regular stages, but there's no reason to go apeshit on the boss when counter damage is fucking bonkers and they can easily trade with you.

>Can you imagine the estus system in a game where you are expected to be taking damage?

That's literally what estus is designed for, except it's not as exploitable by experts as blood vials and not nearly as frustrating for newbies.

>>383974541

It's a good thing you aren't making video games because you aren't very good at it.

>>383974508

Kos IS the cosmos. The sky is the great lake upon which they found her

the only thing the game did bad in my opinion is not teleporting you to the dlc after killing wet nurse, that would have been a great fucking trip for anyone clueless. then put you back somewhere fitting once you kill orphan

>>383961357
you're injecting it, dipshit.

>>383970701
Why was From adding dud NPCs in the DLC that instantly dropped 5+ vials? They clearly were trying to give the player less downtime in between attempts on Ludwig or whatever.

The vial grind thing becomes a non issue if you get to Mensis, but there are several places where you'll actually have to spend time either grinding or farming vials:

1) Early game Yarnahm. You get about 7 if you clear out the monsters on the way to running back to Gascoigne. You get maybe 5-6 if you kill the monsters on the direct path to Cleric Beast.

2) Rom

3)Shadows of Yarnahm

4) Amelia

5) Blood Starved Beast

Long story short, giving players a decent amount of vials per boss run back in the early game doesn't take away from the core gameplay. It doesn't reduce the fun. It doesn't turn the game into a walking simulator. The boss' challenge is still the same.

The only difference is the amount of time a player is doing unfun things.

It's funny how you people, in another debate, will laud BB/Souls games as games that don't require grinding and it's due to skill. But when it comes to blood vials, autismal doublestandards take hold.

>>383975012

Killing orphan should automatically send you to the hunters dream

>>383975096

The only time i ever grinded for vials was in a level 5 dungeon. It took 5 min and I bought 300+ of them

>>383969882
That sounds like some blood hating hippie foreigner talk there

>>383974819

Keep making excuses for a retarded design decision you shitter. Maybe next time you won't backpedal so obviously.

>>383975012
I missed the DLC my first playthrough.

Pretty disappointing.

>>383975583

Maybe next time dont be a retard?

Estus in BB would be fucking terrible. Estus rewards passive gameplay, bloodborne is an aggressive game. I'm sorry that running out of items upsets you so much.

>>383975640
>>383975167

yes they should have done this but only after you touch the shadow that appears after killing kos. that would have been cool.

kill nurse > try to use lantern > it warps you to the dlc church/chapel whatever is was named > after killing kos and touching the shadow it warps you back to the dream

anything bad with this?

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>>383975691

>blood vials are necessary for aggressive(read: shitty and sloppy) play
>b-b-but blood vials take skill! g-git gud!

Get Miyazaki's cock out of your mouth so your addled brain can get the oxygen it so desperately needs.

>>383975846

>shadow that appears.

That was the true "form" of the orphan, and the essence of the blood.

The orphan of kos is Oedon.

When byrgenwerth discovered the corpse of kos, they killed and harvested Oedon for the umbilical cord and the blood.

Oedon cursed them which led to the scourgd outbreaks and the nightmares.

The orphan of kos that you fight is a creation, a representation of what Oedon could have been and yearns to be. This is similar to how laurences human skull represents what he used to be and desires to be again.

orphan shares gehrmans crying because when gehrman sleeps he is stuck in the nightmare

>>383976415

Kill yourself

What should I play for my next playthrough? So far I've done Skill/Arcane centric builds and have used the threaded cane, saw spear, blades of mercy, rifle spear, and burial blade.

>>383976936
bloodtinge build. reiter/chikage/rifle spear/bowblade/bloodletter are all super fun to use.

>>383976936
Str build with heavy weapons or Beast claws to mix it up maybe? BLT is pretty fun too if you want something a bit more similar

>>383976415
Playing aggressively and skillfully aren't mutually exclusive though.

>>383976563

Epic rebuttal. Now leave this thread and ignore it until it 404's because your arguments were so retarded that you almost instantly resorted to petty shit talking.

>>383977286

They're not, but BB is specifically designed around forgiving sloppy play, for better or worse.

>>383977185
Riflespear run was the most fun I've had
>HAHAHA I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT I'M DOING

>>383977636

Don't bother with these idiots man. BB autists are the worst fans of the whole series. I thought Dark Souls spergs who praise Asylum Demon design were bad.

>>383977636

it's almost like the game is about playing fast and having fun, and not hiding behind a shield for 5 minutes blocking hits.

>>383975640
That's nothing I skipped Orphan in my first playthrough because I couldn't beat him

>>383973939
I sincerely think Miyazaki was on the brink of madness when he came up with Bloodborne.

>>383978589
Or he met Michael kirkbride who subsequently gave him a bunch of acid

>>383977636
>They're not, but BB is specifically designed around forgiving sloppy play

That's cute, because Gascoigne is explicitly designed to punish panicking and/or sloppy play. You can't even spam dodge in his arena without getting caught against a tombstone.

>>383976473
>The orphan of kos is Oedon.
>The orphan of kos that you fight is a creation, a representation of what Oedon could have been and yearns to be

Holy shit, that does make sense. In a nightmare realm he could very well take that form.

>>383975096
>Long story short, giving players a decent amount of vials per boss run back in the early game doesn't take away from the core gameplay. It doesn't reduce the fun. It doesn't turn the game into a walking simulator. The boss' challenge is still the same. The only difference is the amount of time a player is doing unfun things.

This. Needing to farm blood vials doesn't encourage the player to git gud and try again, it's annoying and the worst players will tend to drop the game eventually

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>>383978767
Wrong, it's the opposite. Gascoigne is meant to punish veteran Souls players who would try and fight him like a usual Souls boss. Taking the fight slowly and weaving in and out with your hits is what gets you fucked up. Gascoigne is very unpredictable and the crowded stage makes maneuvering difficult. However, he is easily stunlocked and has relatively low health, meaning he can be beaten easily with R1 mashing as long as you aren't retarded about it.

I just did the third ending.

so the hunter just becomes a cosmic vessel thingy? I don't get it

>>383980265
Read the trophy description, my man, then you ask questions.

>>383978589
>miyazaki did everything

every time