Is strict damage on contact an outdated paradigm?

why would it be?

>>383907727
It's cheap an unsophisticated

Absolutely. It's why I refunded this game.
>Dude the enemy just runs back and forth instead of having an attack pattern you need to actually learn in this game that's clearly trying to focus on it's combat lmao

na

>>383907828
that is its attack pattern

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>>383907505
i liked it

>>383907929
Well its """"attack pattern"""" is phoned in, lazy shite.

>>383907828
>I'm bad at videogames so I refunded it

>>383907828
Did you really get upset over the pleb starting enemies?

>>383907505
it means the devs suck and lack creativity and skill

>>383908059
cuz its supposed to be easy early in the game. the game does have a too slow start but regular enemies get tricky later, and bosses are always a good challenge

>>383908270
Right. I feel like I see it most in 2d metroidvania style games and the only reason it's their is because that's what the original Metroid and Castlevania did over two decades ago.

>>383907505
I want to disagree with that. But I honestly can't. I'm sitting here trying to think of counterarguments. But there's no way to justify it. Damage on contact is dated bullshit.

The only way I could allow it, is if some enemies had clear tells that their body was damaging. Like spikes, or electricity, or poison.
But enemies that you are meant to exchange with, it's bullshit that merely touching them hurts you.

And it doesn't help that attacking enemies doesn't stagger then. They sometimes get pushed back a few pixels. But other than that, they pretty much ignore your blows, and continue their own movement, running straight into you. Complete bullshit.

>>383907505
>Is strict damage on contact an outdated paradigm?
Nah, nothing wrong with it. Complexity for complexity's sake is bad design. You should always start simple, and add systems only as necessary to create the experience you're going for. The best design is the one that checks all the boxes with the least overhead.

>>383908270
>it means the devs suck and lack creativity and skill
No. It was a deliberate choice in this game, just like it was a deliberate choice in BotW. What, you think they didn't implement a more complex system because they ran out of time?

>>383908584
>You should always start simple, and add systems only as necessary to create the experience you're going for.
Ok... So let's start with the most simple concept: colliding with enemies has no effect to damage. Because why would it, unless you programmed it to be?

Now let's add unnecessary complexity: Enemies damage you when you collide with them.
Now lets add even more unnecessary complexity: You are thrown back and stunned when you collide with enemies.

>>383908584
>just like it was a deliberate choice in BotW
Except BOTW has a real combat system that doesn't involve the enemies running into you like a retard
Even bokoblins have a shitload of AI programmed into them and can end up attacking you in a ton of ways.
I mean even ChuChus and Bats don't just damage you by coming close unless they're elemental and literally on fire for shit sake. Even the lowest of the low enemies in the game have real fucking attacks and effort put into them.
Not just a movement pattern and they are the hitbox like this lazy retread of the metroidvania genre for the umpteenth time.

>>383908584
>What, you think they didn't implement a more complex system because they ran out of time?
No, they didnt implement because they suck at programming and lack creativity to come up with something better so they just went with the outdated 20 years old mechanic that nostalgiafags will defend anyway.

Its pretty much equal to if someone released an FPS today with controls and limits like Doom instead of your modern WASD+mouse

It's simple and fair. You see exactly what you can't touch. If attack box and enemy hitbox were separate, people would no doubt complain about getting hit when they weren't expecting it. Making 2D attack animations fair and consistent takes a lot of effort visually, like for instance extensive color-coding in Guacamelee.

>>383908578
>spikey/electrified/burning/poisonous enemy walks into you
Fair enough
>completely smooth enemy bumps into you
I guess it might hurt a bit if it's heavy
>completely smooth enemy hops into you from below, hitting your feet
Fuck off

>>383908881
>Making 2D attack animations fair and consistent takes a lot of effort visually
So basically these devs lacked something, be it time, ability, or care. And that's why we have this combat system.

>>383909116
We have this because that's the way it's been in games that served as an inspiration. Don't blame devs for not reinventing the wheel.

>>383909227
>Dev tries to make a game inspired by the original Doom
>He adds in the original "aiming" and doesn;t utilize mosue aiming
>Everyone deservedly shits on this decision
No different here. You shouldn't get a free pass to make bad game design decision just because people did that in the 80s when we didnt know better or couldn't do better.

>>383908861
have you even seen any of the bosses in Hollow Knight? they obviously didn't lack creativity and programming ability. simple enemies at the beginning of the game are an intentional decision for obvious reasons

Maybe so you can't just run past every enemy?

>>383909227
Beat em ups, and fighting games don't have damage on contact.
You don't go into battletoads, and take damage merely for touching an enemy.

And honestly, damage on contact is what killed otherwise great 2D games like Order of Ecclesia. Because they tried to make the game more give and take exchanging with enemies. Except in order to do that, the spacing had to be so precise, that's it's no fun to play. You're either constantly running into the enemies by accident. Or they're just moving into your space.

>>383909474
What's a bad design decision here? It's just one of the ways to do things. It's not like you don't know what the hazards are or aren't given ways to avoid them.

>>383909519
They could still have collision

this is like trying to argue that bullet hell games are bad

>>383909480

I don't know dude, I played 90 minutes, refunded, pirated, beat it 100% and found the bosses to be about as phoned in repetitive uninteresting crap as the regular enemies.

None of the bosses stood out to me as particularly challenging or presenting a unique challenge.

>>383909687
That still makes it easier to just run past enemies.

>>383909519
See there's this thing called "programming" that we've invented since Castlevania on the NES. You can make enemies respond to what the player is doing instead of making them taller than a max height jump and putting them patrolling the path forward.

>>383909768
Not bad. Just for a particular audience.

I have no interest in playing a SHMUP with one safe pixel in each fight personally.

>>383908578
That's dumb. Having enemies damage you on contact produces a clearly different style of gameplay than if you don't have them damage you on contact. Ergo it is a useful tool for game designers.

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>>383907505
Yes. But in certain genres.
For platformers, it can go either way. We've gotten used to it. In other games unless the enemy is covered in spikes, engulfed in flames, or some other property, they should not do damage to the player character.

Hollow Knight would have benefited from not having contact damage, even though the game gives you a decent amount of range with your melee weapon.

>>383907505
Not if it makes sense. Like the spiky enemies that walk around, sure. But enemies with fast and damaging movesets, it's just illogical and hurts what could be a better fight with nice sweetspot attack positions for the sake of making the fight harder and killing some possible options. Stuff like what monster hunter players and Souls players do is impossible in games like Hollow Knight and that unfortunately hurts diverse play. Even older Resident Evil games have this capacity to utilize minimum distance and body hugging for combat options.

>>383907505
In this game, hell yes. Every bosses' most dangerous attack isn't actually an attack, it's a tracking jump that you bump into. What's more it tends to completely unmotivated. If you're fighting a porcupine, fine, contact damage is reasonable. But there's no reason why you should take damage from touching someone in normal conditions.

>>383909867
none of them are basic "move back and forth" collision bosses. most regular enemies aren't either for that matter. you can argue that the game is too easy and attack patterns aren't as crazy as Rabi-Ribi or something but I don't get why that means collision damage is bad

>>383907505
>le hipster reddit game

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>>383909867
>I refunded a game but then pirated it to complete it 100%
what kind of retard logic

>>383908107
>easy boss that has lazy design is hard
Are you retarded or just intentionally projecting? That's clearly not the point. The point is that it's lazy as fuck and kills immersion. It's as lazy as the Lao Shan Lung or Fatalis fights in MH1 which were just "it walks and hurts you". It's not even a fight, so why treat it like one?

>>383907505
>final boss has no contact damage and OP will never know cause he is literal shit

>>383908179
seems that way

later in the game enemies have more complicated attack patterns, and it's pretty obvious this anon never made it that far

>>383909983
Why program tiny monsters that have the intelligence to stop players when you can just go for the easy solution?

>>383907505

It's outdated, yes, and hollow knight suffers egregiously because it's that approach + a character that deals mostly in melee range attacks.

The irony is there are lots of enemies which have the visible cues, like having spikes and shit. But they're the ones you're meant to nail bounce on. Makes me feel like the choice to make enemies deal contact damage was done later in when they realized whoever was coding their enemy AI was kind of a basic bitch for making dynamic or complex challenging behavior.

Also explains why the bosses only do simple cycle based attacks and don't do any unpredictable or fun switch outs, feints, etc. and all the ghost bosses have dumb hammy teleport and phase away on being hit mechanics.

>>383910170
What genre warrants inherent damage on contact with all enemies?

>>383910383
The only boss that is "move back and forth" is the false knight. You can tell he didn't beat the game because he's extrapolating the entire game based upon the first boss, if you can even call him a boss.

>>383910706
What does genre have to do with anything? Mechanics can be used in loads of different genres.

>>383910471

I have more time than money, anon.

Also I make it a point not to support things that disappoint me.

>>383910706
Shmups.
Racing games

>>383910823
>But I beat it 100%
Just admit that you either didn't beat the game or didn't refund it.

>>383910605
Because it makes for a better video game.

>>383910823
>haha I have more time than my mother gives me money

Kill yourself.

>>383907505
>game gets popular
>/v/ contrarians have to resort to journalism tier bait to settle their autistic reasoning for hating somthing.
Pottery.

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>>383910854
>Two fucking flying objects collide
>Two several hundred pound at least motorized vehicles collide
>It causes damage
>Therefor two people walking into each other should cause damage

>>383910383

See this post.
>>383910670

and yeah, I would argue it's too easy. Contact damage is an element of additional difficulty, but it's a shitty, lazy, and not very fun one.

>>383907505
No, because games can be balanced by absurd damage, and if they give you proper defensive tools it can actually be integral to gameplay. Now when a game doesn't have high damage and tries to employ it without giving you the right kit, it feels like shit.

For example, when you get smoked-out in shitty games like Diablo 2/3/PoE and other clickspam garbage, it's pretty fucking dumb and wrecks the gameplay because there really isn't anything you can do to actively mitigate damage.

But in a game like Souls, 1-shots don't feel cheap because you have metric fucktons of ways to prevent that from happening. In fact, when the game is a cakewalk and plays like shit when enemies DON'T fuck you up because a central point of the gameplay is damage avoidance. To reduce the damage in a game like Demon's Souls would be like reducing the damage your opponents deal in a fighting game, and it would be shitty and unfun.

>>383911024
>>383910854
Oh and that's not even true for all racing games. A LOT of games just knock you about without you taking damage (and it's a better mechanic who would have thought)

>>383910782
I must have misunderstood your point then.
In any case, the "style" of game where damage on contact is inherent with all enemies, is a bullshit "style". I want you to justify this mechanic, by framing it in working style.

>>383910854
It's bullshit when Shmups do it too.
Racing games have variable damage based on the severity of contact.

>>383910925

Okay fine, I got to 95% or so. I missed a few of the talismans by the time I got all the grubs. IDGAF

>>383910975

>Not pirating everything and only supporting devs you actually think make worthwhile cool shit, while living frugally and saving.

Pleb.

>>383911142
Nah, racing games benefit for fucking up your vehicle.

>>383911024
>run right into someone headfirst
>it doesn't hurt
lmao.

>>383910975
>being this salty
Buyers remorse goy? Maybe you should reconsider your spending plan.

>>383911215
It makes you avoid touching the enemies. Why would you oppose that? It's simply more dangerous and contains more dodge-centric gameplay, but in turn sacrifices more complex timing-based dodging.

>>383910670
bosses do have surprise attacks and feints, i.e. watcher knights

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>>383907505
>/v/ in charge of being THIS casual

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>>383907505

No. Absolutely not.

There are a huge amount of real life creatures that fuck you up just be touching them. Insects, sea creatures, porcupines, basically anything with spikes.

It is not outdated and in fact could be used a lot more in adventure games to force a bit of tactical movement/planning to combat scenarios.

>>383911701
>boss does a jump up in the air without any telegraphing and deals 1/10th of your health
>dealing as much damage as the boss charging at you with a lance and stabbing you in the face
If you're gonna have contact damage, make it only apply to spiky enemies or make it extremely low

>>383911359
>Why would you oppose that?
Because I can't think of a game that wouldn't improve by removing damage on contact.
Damage on contact works situationally. But not in totality.
I would also say that creating zones that are always off limits, actually simplifies dodging. As it's one place you can never risk entering. Thus, you have less options to act.

>>383911110
Only post worth a fuck.
Games can be designed around high damage, but some games clearly aren't and they add it in anyways when they want to pump up the difficulty.

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>>383911565
I bet you think the Crash remake fucking up the gameplay makes it better you big fucking retard.

>>383911804
Yeah fuck Mario and shmups.

>>383911242
>Living frugally.
>Not a pleb.
By living frugally you are by definition a pleb because you will never enjoy luxuries.

>>383911989
>Comparing platformers and combat games
Retarded

>>383912092
>being a literal genreshitter

>>383912092
Are you trying to imply Hollow Knight isn't a platformer?

>>383912027
>By living frugally you are by definition a pleb because you will never enjoy luxuries.
t. literally 12 years old

>>383912171
Not at all. I'm an adult with plenty of both money and free time.

>>383912171
Not enjoying luxuries does make you a LITERAL pleb.

>>383912027

Yeah man, overpriced unfulfilling modern crap sure is a luxury.

Do you want some more salt to go with your shit? Just kidding, you've clearly got enough.

>>383912293
Well he is, by admission, enjoying luxuries. He just isn't paying for them.

>>383911989
Mario would be improved if Goomas and Koopas actually had to attack you in order to do damage. And for situations where the designer needs damage on contact, use something spiky, or otherwise noticeably dangerous.

Shmups would also benefit from actual bullet fire being the danger, and not walls and still turrets.

>>383912140
>>383912164
>Play a game like Mario
>Race to the finish platformer, enemies mostly function as obstacles of just a different kind of platform, messing up around them can be punished with damage
>Game is literally from the 80s so it still has contact damage but even then Bowser, Hammer Bros have had proper attacks since the NES
>Play a game like Hollow Knight
>Has a combat system, clearly not primarily a platformer
>Enemies have limited combat abilities and just try to touch you
>Every fight plays out the same because of the limited potential of the combat system

>>383911989
You didn't take contact damage in mario if you hit them from above. Your primary way of attacking was contact damage from above which makes it very different

>>383912370
>Enemies have limited combat abilities and just try to touch you
>>383912391
Exactly; the mechanic has uses.

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>>383912293
>Bought 400 dollars in shitty indie games for his Steam account this year instead of saving money for cooler bigger things than expenses of about 15 dollars at a time
>Somehow I'm supposed to be the plebeian

>>383912493
I'm just saying that pleb literally refers to the common, poor people.

>tfw HK was too easy in the end
Any metroidvanias that will rock my socks off on Steam preferably?

>>383910670
>>383911094
Did you only play through the first few hours of the game? Bosses get more complex and react to the player as you go on. Both Hornet and Hollow Knight have parries, Lost Kin varies up his moves mid jump and is fairly difficult to predict, Watcher Knights stop their swinging combos if you're too far away from them.

The bosses aren't complex, but the good ones are much more then some simple "big enemy moves back and forth" nonsense. The real issue is that there's just too many bosses, with a good chunk of them being mediocre and forgettable.

>>383911940
Crash's issues deal with accuracy, HK's contact damage is accurate and fair. They'd be comparable problems if HK had giant hitboxes on its attacks and enemies, but it doesn't.

Really, you're not putting forth an argument here. You're trying to argue that all forms of difficulty are artificial difficulty.

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>>383912518
>Common poor people
>Frugal

>>383912320
>He's absolutely seething.
>He doesn't like swag shit.
I just bought a new motorcycle this year after getting rid of my old Sportster XL 1200, and it's extremely fulfilling anon. It's actually exhilarating... A feeling you've probably forgotten.

>>383912603
yes

>>383911701
There's nothing wrong with petting a porcupine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZgmdFZ9Ki4

But I don't think damage on contact is completely bad in all situations, but I feel as though it would be better if it was limited to specific enemies. I especially dislike when the more humanoid enemies with spears and stuff have it. The giant worms, the jelly fish, even the little crawly guys in the very beginning make sense with damage on contact. But for many of the enemies I just don't feel like it makes sense and would benefit from having their movesets more developed and doing away with heavy reliance on damage on contact.

>>383912523

I really liked Axiom Verge. Bluntly speaking though, it is a metroid clone.

>>383912370
So Metroid and Cave Story are shittier for having contact damage too? It's worked into enemy movesets; they can fly around, jump, dash, and headbutt you, and there are a ton of enemies that have normal attacks besides that. I don't see why you're drawing the distinction you are.

>>383912603
They are. I work at a convinence store and people will come in to buy lighters, only to bitch that they cost 2.13 when they're like 1.60 at the gas station.

>>383907505
>strict damage on contact
what does that mean?

>>383912603
Yeah, that about sums it up. If you don't own property for example, you're poor.

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>Teeters it's way in your direction.
>Touching it magically hurts you.

>>383912648
>Being this retarded or underage so as to not understand basic socioeconomics.

>>383912621
I'm glad you're enjoying your life and your simple pleasures.

>>383912572
>The real issue is that there's just too many bosses with a good chunk of them being mediocre and forgettable.
I'd agree with this point overall.

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>>383912648
>Every single poor person has
>The latest phones
>The latest shoes
>Tries to live out of their means
So that they can project their "luxury lifestyle" onto everybody else. Much like you are here.

>>383912767
>only to bitch that they cost 2.13 when they're like 1.60 at the gas station
Buuuut they still buy them every time don't they? Cheap and frugal are different things. They are cheap.

If they were actually frugal they wouldn't be buying the 2.13 lighter. And if they were buying lighters regularly they're likely also supporting a cigarette habit they can barely afford.
Nobody teaches poor people how to save money because they're raised in a chain of bad decision making and we don't teach that (at least not here in America).

>>383912783
Every enemy has contact damage regardless of moveset or design (as opposed to e.g. only the spiky ones having it)

>>383912654
I like games that do this but I can't see how much of a difference it would make in HK's case particularly. If you touch an enemy you're already in a bad spot where you'll probably be attacked. If you got the i-frame dash earlier you might have more of a point.

>>383912783
Damage on contact with any enemy under any circumstance

>>383913001
>Being this retarded or underage so as to not understand basic socioeconomics.
Yes, poor people absolutely do not try to spend as little as possible. They are all the gin-drinking thriftless stereotypes of the Victorian era.
>>383913002
You have a very strange definition of "poor".

The main problem with the game is that you can cheese it too easily. Just smack away at many of the bosses because you'll end up killing them before they can kill you thanks to the invincibility frames. Even the last boss is like this. The last last boss isn't though because it does double damage on everything, maybe more bosses should have done more damage. This game may have been better off with a health meter or percentage than set masks, or have half masks and such.

>Contact damage is bad because it's not realistic
B R A I N L E T S

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>>383913132
Go to the shittiest neighborhood in your city and I guarantee you the amount of people rocking current phone models and expensive shoes released with the last 6-12 months skyrockets. You talk like a literal 12 year old who knows nothing of the world.

>>383913258
I'm sorry anon, but I think you're talking out of your arse.

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>>383907505
Hollow Knight would be a 9.5/10 game if they got rid of contact damage on every enemy with a moveset and fixed the airtime on small jumps

>>383913132
>POOR
>>>>POOR

Retard, We're not talking about poverty here. We're talking about shit spending/saving habits.

You're missing the obvious and crucial point and embarassing yourself.

>>383912523
Rabi Ribi is supposed to be good but I haven't played it yet. Valdis Story is really solid and has a lot of replay value. Environmental Station Alpha is great and rather cheap. Momodora Reverie Under the Moonlight is neat but pretty damn short.

>>383912370
>Enemies have limited combat abilities and just try to touch you

I think most enemies have some form of attack or swing. Even the basic guys at the start have slight variations in what they'll do when you get close (the jumping bugs, the charging bugs) and later they get more diverse (flying bugs that position themselves for dive attacks and projectiles, sheild enemies that block in front and above themselves so you can't effortlessly pogo them, mantis enemies that have forward lunges, normal attacks, and upward attacks).

You're trying to make every enemy in the game seem like the goombas from Mario, but that shit ain't true.
>>383912969
>contact damage is unrealistic!

Can we just ban everyone who uses shit arguments on this site?

>>383913448

>Can we just ban everyone who uses shit arguments on this site?
Start with yourself, please.

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>>383907505
>this anime brainlet who manages to make 30 diffrent posts about this game's "issues" just because he's mad at it for no reason

I don't know should i be genialy impressed or sad because people like this exist. Guess i'll just laugh.

You do understand that you being autistic will not change game's great reputation and sells at all, r-right?

>>383913040
>>383913042
ah, I understand thanks

I'm not sure, maybe, in a sense it's like manoeuvring around bullets, mobile hazards but it's a bit lame visually to get hurt simply because you've touched some monsters' ass

it's also a question of whether the enemy as a more sophisticated AI or just just repeats a pattern, that latter sounds obviously worst at first glance but it make for a really different type of gameplay, comparing apples to oranges so to speak

>>383913537
>still trying to use the "realism is good game design" argument

Just stop senpai.

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>>383914041
>If you don't think HK is perfect you must be the marrow autist

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>>383914240
I'll be honest with you senpai, I didn't read any of your post aside from what I greentexted there.

I just wanted you to know you sounded stupid.

>>383907505
Yes. Easily the most annoying thing in the game.
Liked it, despite that.

>>383914041
The devs need some critique to make the next game even better. That being said, I don't think damage on contact is a bad mechanic, but there are a lot of things in the game that need improvement. The game is good, it's a 7/10 for me, but there are other games in its genre that are like 1/3 the length and I still consider them better games because some of the annoying things HK does.

>>383914041

>/v/ is one person

Nigger, this game has been on the summer sale.

Do you really think the threads about it have all just been one jackass? It's not impossible, sure.
If they were, would it invalidate the discussion in them? If you think that, why post? Why not hide and filter and move on?

Lurk more, please.

>>383907505
Forces you to respect the enemies and think about your and their positioning.
There's nothing wrong with contact damage if done correctly, especially in 2D games that should be extremely precise anyway.

>>383907505
Bought it a week ago but haven't been able to play because I work 24/7. life is pain

I found it really weird that the Dreamers weren't bosses. Two of them just had some easy minibosses and the other one you literally just walked up and completed. It's almost like they designed that part last and ran out of time.

>>383915189
Agree. HK feels like its close to a classic, the type of game that in 20 years time people could still play and discuss. But for every great thing they do, there's an annoyance. And eventually, all these smaller issues end up building to something inferior. I guess it's too late for them to take out damage on contact from most enemies. It really does get fucking annoying. Not challenging, just annoying.
>>383915578
Disagree. Too many times I got hit just from touching an enemy or jumping and a boss teleporting right in my path.
>>383915751
My guess is it's supposed to be thematic. The Dreamers are weak and in some weird way accept their fate.

>>383915578

That's a fine argument, son. However, the trash enemies in this game that actually have movesets and aren't wandering hazards don't really pose any threat.

When it gets to the point that "THINKING ABOUT YOUR AND THEIR POSITIONING" is 60% or more of the difficulty of the average enemy. The difficulty of the average enemy is BORING AS FUCK.

>>383907505
>run into a walking bush
>get hurt
BRAVO

Am I the only one who hates the fucking dash? You can't cancel it so if you miscalculate distance you can't correct yourself. This was most apparent when I fought Failed Champion where almost everytime I predicted his jumps and dashed under him, I'd get hit by an RNG falling rock that I couldn't avoid. Megaman X handled this perfectly.

>>383915578
Yeah because having enemies constantly spawn ontop of your character and dealing contact damage is making you "respect the enemies"

>>383907505
I thought the game stopping for a second after taking damage was fucking shit.

>>383911303
Alright it should slightly hurt then, if you have enough speed. Otherwise I have to agree. It's not a big deal, but ideally there should be a clear indication as to why you take damage in a game. The less realistic/the more stylised it is, the less it matters I guess.

>>383915951
>smack giant charging bush on the nose
>cheeky little shit inside tries to scurry away
>dash after him for the kill
>barely touch him and take damage while he burrows underground

>>383915985
Yeah, platformers should be more about your hand-eye coordination and reaction time than risk assessment. I didn't really think about it much while playing but after reading your post, it probably should have been able to have been cancelled.

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so in this game light is bad and started epidemic so bug king made hollow knights to kill it?

>>383916213
agreed, and the soul system should be removed too. platformers aren't about resource management. you should be able to heal or shoot projectiles whenever you want

>>383910720
what about Failed Champion?

>>383916569
and lost kin and hornet 2.0 and watcher knights

>>383915985
>if you make a mistake you get hurt
>this is bad game design
this thread in a nutshell

>>383916485
I find that part alright, plenty of platformers have ammunition and mana and such. Maybe it needed to be tweaked a little more. I don't understand why the extra vessel system needed to be like it was, it should just make the whole vessel bigger instead of having to wait to fill up still.

>>383916485

Most other metroidvania type games have a projectile option that doesn't cost a resource, Frankly, the soul system is just getting drops off enemies (BUT EASIER, SINCE YOU DON'T EVEN NEED TO KILL THEM) So naturally it should be removed to be more in line with the retro gamefeel.

>>383916256
No, just that the light is a god that originally created everyone but got mad when the king made everyone smart.

>>383916256
Yup.

the plague gave bugs a higher consciousness, but made them a hivemind. The king freed them from this and made them even smarter and then he himself sealed the light in the hollow knight.

>>383916795
Most melee ones make you spend a resource for a projectile, like SOTN.

>>383916749
>Predict and react to the boss' movements correctly
>Get hit anyways by random debris while still recovering from your reaction to the boss
It's either get hit by the rock or the boss, and the rock does less damage.

Why do the weaver people call Hornet a princess if she's the daughter of some random spiderweb mage, rather than the king and queen?

>>383916749

To be honest dude, your point there is kind of telling.

Situations where a player is caught in a mistake that they don't have an opportunity to fix and feel good about is textbook bad game design. Making a mistake and getting hurt is typified as what should happen, but it's a very dramatic oversimplification. If your player feels stuck at any point like they don't have any option but to take a hit, and they aren't DSP, then maybe your game could have more options.

Avenues that let players make mistakes and then get around them by noticing what they did simply feel more satisfying, and usually offer a higher level of skill based gameplay in a general sense, and wind up being considered better games, too.

any tips for radiance homie?

feeling bad (because its so good) that the game is over soon for me, also at 98% (i think delicate flower & trial of fools left even tho I'm pretty sure I still need some mask shards).

>>383917176
>bosses in this game are too predictable
>this attack is too unpredictable
this thread in a nutshell

>>383915751
Given the sheer number of bosses I think it was a thematic choice

>>383916256
Radiance is 'bad' and radiance is associated with light. Light is not bad thematically

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>>383907505
>Metroidvania
>Missable collectables

Are you avin' a giggle m8?

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Playing dead cells, the lacking checkpoint system is starting to get really fucking annoying.

>quick slash + joni's blessing + fragile strength
>destroy every dream boss by just slashing at them

>>383917360
Yeah, there's no space for healing so get Imir's blessing, Quick Blade or whatever it's called, and personally I went for Shaman Stone with shadow upwards spell, tears through her life bar and makes the first phase (the only really hard one) trivial.

You will need to git gud, however, since you'll be dead in like 4 attacks and you can't heal.

>>383907505
If you could just walk through every enemy in Hollow Knight then there would be no challenge at all.

>>383917605
I have no idea why I said Imir, as the anon above me said it's joni's

>>383917360
Hit it until it dies.

>>383916485
I was ok with it. Could be tweaked a bit and the soul attacks should be much more powerful. The whole damage output vs health never came into play for me since the attack wasn't powerful enough to warrant the sacrifice for health regen.
Also, there should either be more charm slots or some of the charms turn into permanent upgrades. Most of the charms end up never used because they're either way to specific for certain situations or their effects are negligible while sacrificing slots.

>>383917664
>not taking damage is the same as being able to walk right through

>>383917605
thanks bud, i've been using the shadow spell on her and its pretty good. i'll try the setup with shaman stone and imir. quick blade over stalwart shell?

I think the shell is the MVP charm in the game since you get it so early. Never really unequipped it.

>/v/ is now so casual that they complain about contact damage in a 2D sidescroller

>>383917360
Delicate flower gives you one of the mask shards.
I ended up dying like 20 times to The Radiance, but it's really not that hard once you figure it out. Once I beat it once, I then went and finished trial of fools, and then beat the boss again after two tries. It's like riding a bike.
The charm that is basically mandatory for a lot of methods is the shaman stone, you need that extra spell damage and the shriek does a lot of it. Only use shriek when you know for sure you're not in danger, it's not worth doing it when fireballs are in the air or other shit is flying at you, you don't want to lose that health. When the fireballs are flying, try to head in the direction of the boss and smack it with the sword. This of course does damage and should give you plenty of soul for when it's open to do a shriek, then repeat. Charms that increase the soul you get are overrated for this fight. You might want to use Joni's blessing instead of trying to find time to heal.

>>383917605
>there's no space for healing
There's two patterns you can get a heal in and that's without Quick Focus

>>383917360
>>383917907
Also, make sure you have that upgraded shriek, where it's black instead of white. You should have gotten it in the Abyss

>>383917486
What can you miss?

>>383917907
Quick focus makes healing far easier.

>>383917852

Contact damage is just the most egregious and telling issue of compounded shit design in the game. I don't think anyone actually found any of this hard. Just obtuse and annoying, a big wart of 'this isn't fun' on a game that could have probably been pretty fun.

>>383918023
>>383917907
got the upgrade, thanks for the tips bud
had like 10 tries before posting.. but here we go again :x

>>383908846
Whend the alternative is animating a specific attack animation to a accomplish the same thing, yes it is unnecessarily complex

>>383918165

>Games shouldn't strive to do complex and fun shit
>They should all be lowest common denominator pandering simple shit

Fuck you too, anon.

>>383918120
You can look up even just someone beating it on YouTube, if you want. It might give you a good idea without actually being a guide. You still gotta get gud, but you might be doing something wrong that wasn't obvious until you see others do it.

Bretta or Hornet /v/?

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>>383918165
>attack animations are 'unnecessarily complex'
Shouldn't you be playing bejeweled on your iphone?

I remember all those terrible circlejerk threads back when this game first released claiming it was masterpiece and making ridiculous statement such as it being better than SOTN.
Generally I don't like using the word shill but...yeah

>>383917907
By the way, since the wiki is so useless I had to figure this out myself:

You can clear the path to the flower of enemies before you get the flower. Some minor enemies respawn but they can be dealt with remote spells if you are scared.

>>383917980
You can only refill one mask reliably, unless I'm missing something, so it's pointless.

>>383918328
Bretta is T H I C C

>>383918083
It's a fucking platformer you autist. All platformers have contact damage because enemies are designed as obstacles to be avoided. That's not "obtuse", it's been that way since fucking Mario.

>>383918414
It is better than SOTN

>>383918417
If you do it right the only enemies you'll encounter are aspids (the spitter fliers), electric jellyfish, and those flying bush bugs. It's easier to be honest. Hardest part was the spikes at the end.

>>383917664
This is true, but only because the game was designed around contact damage. 2D sidescrollers without contact damage usually have faster enemies that are dangerous even if you can touch them without getting hit.

>>383918414
The game is pretty good, though. Artistically speaking it's one of the best games I've played, and I liked it more than say Cave Story. I do think it's a masterpiece, but not the best game ever.

>>383918417
Only real challenge for delicate flower is those gay spikes right before you get to the grave. The enemies are easy.

>>383918529
I genuinely pity you and your people.

>>383918489

Listen nigger, if you're gonna call me an autist for you not understanding a subtle point and draw the point back to platformers in general instead of the specific issues in this game, I see no need to try and explain it further to you.

>>383907505
Wow, /v/ is STILL bad at videogames

>>383918414
It's good, it's just not perfect. It deserves a thread here and there, it was perhaps a bit over-discussed on release though.

>>383918328
Bretta leaves you for Zote, who is so pathetic you can use his body as a basketball.

>>383918489
Hollow knight obviously tried to place an emphasis on combat. Platforming is only half the game at best.

>>383917486
There are no missable collectibles in Hollow Knight.

>>383918560
>This is true, but only because the game was designed around contact damage
So what's the problem then?

>>383918414
Honestly, I do think it will be remembered as one of the great metroidvanias. Hopefully, if they do a sequel, they can tweak some things around to make a true masterpiece.

>>383918807
It's not Devil May Cry, dumbass. The game isn't any more combat-focused than Castlevania, which also has contact damage.

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>>383918631
That part kept fucking me. I was fucking boiling by the time I actually made it through.

>>383918379
An attack animation for when you bump into an enemy is indeed unnecessary, because it fulfills the same purpose
>>383918294
You're the one who is trying to dumb down games because you can't properly position yourself

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What did they mean by this?

>>383918868

I think it will be remembered as one of the average metroidvanias that people got way too hyped for because it was made of too many mashed together muh nostalgia and muh popular dark game with muh popular cutesy artstyle elements from other games that did them far better.

>>383919142
You can fall in either one depending on how far you jump off the cliff?

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ITT: The kind of people who ragequit Castlevania because they couldn't handle Medusa Heads.

>>383919307
Why doesn't the map fill out?

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>>383919196
>Hollow Knight
>muh nostalgia

>>383919097

Listen here you fucking nigger, You are absolutely misunderstanding me.

Positioning yourself to not bump into enemies is not sufficient challenge. It is boring and lazy, and something we've seen a thousand times before. A dated and unsatisfying quality to these types of games.

I'd rather the enemies try to fucking RAPE THE SHIT OUT OF ME at a million miles an hour, throwing out interesting moves constantly to achieve the same amount of general difficulty, without all of it being 'guess i better not move right too much haha' you fucking casual shitter.

>>383907505
You know what, I feel like it is. But I don't mind it that much to bitch about it.

>>383919196
Possibly, although I do think the game has a lot of charm, which saves it from some of its mistakes and from just being an average metroidvania.
Like I said, this isn't a masterpiece but a sequel that fixes some of the mistakes, tweaks a few things here and who knows.

>>383919142
>>383919406
It just doesn't, sadly.

>>383907505
Kirby did it right
>Enemies can contact damage you
>But they also suffer contact damage

>>383919406
No point, I guess. Maybe so players wouldn't think there's something to explore like falling in a specific place could lead to a secret. Not sure.

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OP very clearly did not play past the first few areas in Hollow Knight and died like a casual to one of those "simplistic and dated" enemies that only walk around and got so mad he mad this thread about.

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>>383918489
game design and hardware has moved on since fucking Mario

Christ I bet you would argue that it would be right to include it in dark souls if that was normal for third person action games

>>383919729
The exact opposite for me, I've many times went back there thinking I could somehow do something there.

>>383907505
Go away, underage.

>>383917410
You didn't even make a logical argument. It's not about predictable or not. It's about being in a situation where dodging one thing means being damaged by another.

>retard
your post in a nutshell

>>383907505
nope. only people that it triggers are shit tier neo /v/ babbys.

>>383919481
You are a huge pleb without any understanding of how videogames work.
You seem unable to appreciate level design.

>boring
>lazy
>dated
>unsatisfying
Meaningless buzzwords.

>>383919830
don't get in that situation then

>>383919734
*Red Thumbs Down* Not Recommended
0.5 Hours on Record

Wowww contact damage, really?

Posted July 14.

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Why doesn't this count toward completion percentage? I didn't bother doing it honestly, I already have 100% according to post-credits and much chievos.
Also, I'll probably never replay the regular game, but is Hornet's mode supposed to be the whole game again as her or is it some side story? I'd play again if it's with a different character and all new moveset.

>>383919734
Actually, some of the early game enemies were the ones where contact damage made the most sense. Crawely dude with a spikey back, guy with a big horn on his head, jellyfish, giant worm things

JUST A REMINDER THAT THE VAST MAJORITY OF /v/ PLAYS GAME ON FUCKING NORMAL.
Don't even bother talking to kids who grew up playing iphone "games" and free2play skinner's boxes.

>>383917325
This. Being stuck in SOTN for instance, against a wall, but then misting or bat swooping is hella satisfying. Not to mention, being overwhelmed to the point of it being almost impossible, but then mastering the Soul Steal input to kill the weaker foes and heal up is GOTY.

>>383920039
Because it's a different ending than the other 3

>>383919824
Actually I agree. I went there three times. First just to explore. Second and third to see if there was something I was missing, since I did think it was weird that it wasn't filling out.
Might just be an oversight on their part then.

>>383920039
I never found this guy, not even once, and I got 100% on my first playthrough. It's probably good that he doesn't count, or I'd have to resort to guides or something.

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>>383919907

We're reaching shitposting levels that shouldn't even be possible.

>>383919938
That's not how games work, anon. And a gross oversimplification of the situation. Not every game is a slow paced strategy game. Certainly not action games. They are all about a transition between player control vs enemy control. When the enemy is in control of the situation it's the players turn to go on the defensive, but when you don't give the player any option but to choose one damage or the other, that's not a good way to handle a challenge. Hell, the developer obviously didn't even test the game enough to know it would be a problem since several fights have this issue of multiple enemies and projectiles that can't all be reasonable predicted where they will be or where to go. Giving the player less control only exacerbates that issue.

>>383911940
god i wanna fuck Elaine's stupid jewish face so bad

>>383919938
You still aren't providing any argument. Giving a command isn't an argument. You've not proven how it was possible for that situation to be resolved if the situation happens. Saying "it should never happen" isn't a solution to if it does happen.

>>383920039
I wish they could do both. A new area/map like the Artorias dlc, likely having to do with that weave area where nothing happens plus the main game changing a few things around to make it her own.

>>383913448
>Valdis Story is really solid and has a lot of replay value.
I wish I could get this game to run consistently. I don't have a great computer but it's not shit either, but I get constant slow downs on Valdis Story. I've googled it a bit and it seems to have something to do with the controller, but the fact that it's never been fixed pisses me off.

>>383919481
But they can do that and have contact damage.
And if they do, there's almost no scenario where you would get hit by contact damage unless the fight is badly designed (one of the attack is impossible to react all the time, jumps/teleport/dash with no pattern or fixed lenght)

>>383919820
It's almost impossible to have contact damage work in 3D action games because they are far less precise that 2D.
That's why almost every 3D action games are basically reduced to dodge roll through everything with the proper timing, and maybe some parries or block and the overall diversity in term of patterns and avoidance of said patterns is abysmal in comparison to what 2D game can offer you.

>>383918984
>it's not a better designed game so it's fine
That's not a very good example. And the Castlevania games you're talking about are horribly outdated too. So yeah...

>>383919820
Different genres, different enemy design priorities. 2D games benefit from enemy contact damage because enemies cannot be walked around, so as a result they're designed to be obstacles with basic movement patterns where the challenge is looking for an opening in that pattern and either jumping past them or running under them at the right time. In 3D, you can't really do this since enemies with basic movement patterns can be easily walked around and avoided, so 3D games require enemies to have actual AI instead of a basic movement pattern, and because they have AI, interacting with them is usually a back-and-forth affair in which you're always very close to them, so contact damage in such a scenario would mean unavoidable damage.

>>383907828
>load up Bayonetta
>enemies in first area are slow and have long telegraphs to their attacks
>"this game sucks lol"
This is your logic

>>383920634
Oh yeah Valdis has crazy slowdown sometimes, it's not your computer, I wonder if it was intentional or not.

>>383919481
>A dated and unsatisfying quality to these types of games.
Then maybe these types of games aren't for you?

>>383920949

Can you honestly say this issue gets better in hollow knight later on?

Because all of the regular enemies are the same shit, just with a different ineffective gimmick, the whooooole way through the game. It doesn't get better later in.

>>383907505
Hollow knight ran out of ideas after city of tears so they just made every area "difficult" by filling it with enemies and bosses that just fly spastically around the screen bumping in to you. There is nothing wrong with damage on contact but when it is used badly it looks like a problem.

>>383920834
>Castlevania
>outdated
You're too young to post here.

>>383907505
SHILL thread

>>383921023
I don't think it's intentional. It will just run slow as fuck constantly. And not like dropping frames, but everything slows down. It sucks ass. As much as I appreciate the indie scene for making interesting games, having now quality control is a real pain in the ass.

>>383910170
I haven't bothered reading the rest of the thread because this guy posted the only correct/worthwhile thing. This isn't difficult to grasp.

Another thing that annoyed me was the freeze frame when you get hit. I'd likely be hit just by touching an enemy, want to create some space but the game hadn't given me control back so I'd stand there like an idiot, mashing the buttons until the guy decided to move.

>>383921136

Now now, anon. I wouldn't go so far as to say my taste in games far outstrips the general consensus of shills and emotionally attached fuckers on /v/.

Because you were so kind as to say it for me.

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>fav boss
>fav area
>fav npc

post em bugbois

>>383921350
The only reason I think it might've been intentional is that the slowdown is actually really helpful for dealing with some boss fights in harder difficulties, kinda like how SHMUP devs designed games around exploiting slowdown.

the story in hollow knight was too hard to follow

>>383921685
But the slowdown happens even with no enemies around. Like it's just constantly slowed down, even in the hubs, even when you're not in combat. All the time.

>>383920949
>load up Bayonetta
>enemies in first area have no attacks and just keep walking up to me to try and hurt me
>"This game sucks"
That's more my logic.

>>383921559
>they talk a lot
>get closer
>they stop

>>383921173
>Can you honestly say this issue gets better in hollow knight later on?
yes
are you delusional enough to claim that the enemies in the mantis village or the city of tears are the same as the little crawling bugs in the crossroads?

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>>383907505
I swear you guys get more and more casual every day, the shit i read here nowdays is what i would've expected from reddit a few years ago.

>>383907951
>doesn't know how to download and image from the internet

>>383907951
>that second tab

>>383922050
I forget, do they "say" anything when hit by the dream nail? Or do they disappear by the time you get that nail?

>>383921817
Huh, I didn't notice it being that bad when I played it, but it's been a while so I dunno.

>>383922091

What the fuck are you saying anon. Of course they're not the crawling bugs.

They're the roaming dudes that lunge at you, and those flying enemies that try to sting you. They work in pretty much the exact same way as those enemies.

>>383922295
they "say" something related to the arena I think. I couldn't dream nail them again

>>383921693
>radiance makes bugs
>primal hivemind that worships her
>super intelligent giant wyrm dies and births out a small bug with individualism and intelligence, becomes king and grants individuality to the rest of them
>kingdom of glorious bugkind, worships king as god
>bug piss off radiance for rejecting her, starts infecting and taking control of them to undo king's changes
>king creates a hollow knight out of void shit, an empty being designed to take radiance into itself and then lock themselves away
>three most loyal mages guard the lock
>lock imperfect and radiance is too strong, still seeps out and kingdom falls into ruin
>you're a hollow knight that was rejected in favor of the current model, return to hollownest and face the current hollow knight, killing radiance once and for all
Seemed straightforward to me.

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>>383921559
The spider area was fantastic. I remember getting to the part with the bench, not talking to anyone until I rested since I only had one heart left, in case talking to them would move me somewhere like the guy who gives your first power, notice the game didn't save, can't get up, panic panic panic.
Also it was the first time a game made me feel itchy all over.

>>383921559
Not finished but as of now.

>Boss
Not sure. Maybe Dung Defender? I liked how "upbeat" the music was.

>Area
City of Tears or Green Path.

>NPC
Quirrel. Found him to be interesting and just how often you bump into him, gave me the impression of him being off on his own quest.
Wish he got his own DLC.

>>383922295
I haven't seen them since

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comfy funghi

For fucks sake!
Trial Of Fools is total bullshit. Way too tedious due to how long it takes to beat and out of nowhere that asshole bug and his caterpillar waste me in no time.

I think Hollow Knight handles challenge really well but this is easily the worst part of the game. I wouldn't mind so much if the trial was shorter.

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>>383921559
>Mantis lords but I fought them too late and trivialized the fight with shadow dash
>City of Tears and Greenpath
>idk, hornet or quirrel I guess?

>>383922327
yeah dude they're pretty much exactly the same because they both try to attack you

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Care to deposit some Geo?

>>383922849
t.scrub

>>383922885

I'll admit to you at the very least that neither presents enough of a threat to be memorable enough to differentiate.

>>383922493
I made it to the good ending and got 95% of all the items and never even heard about the radiance once, and I was trying my hardest to find everything and talk to everyone

or if I did hear about the radiance I didn't know what the fuck it was, because every time someone says something to you it's all in cryptic bullshit that makes no sense except in hindsight

shit was way too vague

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>>383921559
>boss
the Radiance
>area
Queen's Gardens or Royal Waterways
>npc
Elderbug or pic related.

>>383923453
Shame there's no way of saving her.

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>>383921559
>Lost Kin
>White Castle
>Myla

>>383923553
I remember someone saying that she wanted to die from the beginning, can't remember why tho

>>383923553
>>383923453
I don't get it. I fought him but she never came to help me. Am I missing something?

>>383922106
Makes me wonder just how far gone reddit must be these days.

>>383918737
Name one platformer without contact damage

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>>383921559
The Hollow Knight

White Palace

Zote

>Fight Hollow Knight
>He starts stabbing the shit out of himself
>Think it's some sort of buff, like the Smelter Demon from DaS2
>He starts stumbling around and falling to his knees, barely able to lift his sword
>https://youtu.be/xdWkZOo-p0M?t=2m15s kicks in
>mfw

>>383923925
need to meet her in the ancient basin entrance (near a pale ore) to join in that fight.

>>383923812
>tfw she goes crazy :(

>>383907505
no, but game overs are. so is the concept of extra lives. thankfully most games don't bother anymore.

>>383923924
Probably her, saying she's okay if she dies in the process.
>>383923925
You need to find her before the fight. I forget where.

>>383910854
bullets hurt.

>>383922902
I only found her when geo already became useless :c

>>383921559
>fav boss
Watcher Knights were the most satisfying to beat so far (I'm 17 hours in), they really felt fucking impossible at first. Dung Defender and Mantis Lords too because they're my niggas
>fav area
Fungal Wastes, I like the music and the Mantis Village is when the game started to pick up. also can't resist City of Tears, the rain and the music is so comfy
>fav npc
Elderbug

>>383924808
They should've made her bank in the the main town. It would make more players fall for her trick. As it stands there's not a lot of reasons to have to go to her just for depositing geo.

>>383925089
yeah, or in queens station itself. most players just jumped through there after seeing they can't reach cornifer without an upgrade.

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Tell me your stories of dumb shit you got yourselves into, /v/

>Manage to somehow miss out on the Gruz Mother fight, and thus both Sly and Salubra
>Wonder why I have so much Geo and nothing to spend it on for a long part of the game
>Give all my money to this jew >>383922902
>Get lost deep into the Deepnest, wondering why the game has such an insane difficulty spike all of a sudden
>Lose like 3000 Geo in the dark area (I managed to get all the way to Weaver's den without any light. The big guys that deal two damage were horrifying to fight)
>Talk to a friend who also plays the game about how insanely hard the area is.
>"Oh yeah, Deepnest is hard. I'd suggest you only go there after you get a Coiled Nail upgrade. Also, you DID buy the lantern from the merchant dude, right?"
>"What merchant? Also, you can UPGRADE your nail?!"
>Oh, the lantern costs only 1800, I'll just hop on over to that banker woman and...
>...
>mfw

>>383923553
Technically, you can save her by not meeting her in the Ancient Basin, so she won't show up in Queen's Gardens.

If you go to the Ancient Basin next she'll meet you and move to the starting town, but hitting her with the Dream Nail reveal that she seeks to die in combat to reunite with her friend.

>>383925694
I love the detail of hitting the bank making it fall over.

Anyone know when Hidden Dreams comes out?

>>383925694
I never fucked up this badly, the only area I went in a bit too early was the waterways.
I thought Flukemarm was not an optional boss and he was damn near impossible (two hit for a fly, no spore shroom, minimal upgrades). Came back way later and he was a ... fluke.

I missed out on deepnest till after the dream nail and all, never fell through the hole in fungal wastes (till way later).

>>383926260
I think it's a sign of quality that you can go through this game in so many different ways. I've heard of people who already had the fucking shadow dash by the time they got to Deepnest. I never even knew about the existence of The Abyss until after I beat The Hollow Knight.

>>383926529
I didn't know there was a boss in Crystal Peak until reading about him. Somehow got the crystal dash item without seeing him and just left

the timing based puzzles in crystal peak were way worse for me than the whole white palace

>>383928446
this guy got me so good the first time. I was way to happy to have found a bench and then boom.. a boss and I have one life bulb left.

>>383922295
something along the liens of "Look at this weakling, he should try his nail in the arena, he'd get squashed"

Definitely not a direct quote though.

>>383929093
I fought him the second time and he got stuck on a wall.

>>383926529
I only found out about the shriek after completing the game and discussing it on /v/. That and the upgrade in the Abyss.