So, who's actually right, Frampt, or Kaathe?

>>383732385
neither they were both manipulating you

This game sucks.

>>383732385
It never occur to me that the serpents could just have normal human bodies and abnormally long-ass necks.
That's terrifying to imagine in DS1

Fraathe

>>383732385
Darkness sucks ass, it makes life terrible for everyone. Plus, Kaathe's strategies are retarded and just result in people getting eaten by the Abyss. Not productive at all. Frampt is a dick, but at least civilization is possible in fire. Frampt > Kaathe.

>>383732385
Impossible to say. We don't have an unbiased source, we don't have any solid evidence.

>>383732385
Neither are 'right'. Both options they are pushing towards have pros and cons. On the one hand the age of fire has been unnaturally extended, and as we learn in DS3 Gwyn is the source of the darksign and is basically responsible for all the shit that goes down with hollowing. The age of fire has to come to an end eventually, all one can do is prolong the inevitable. The dark on the other hand is also pretty fucked, and while it is the next step it isn't all roses like some of the NPCs insist. Still, maybe the darkness won't be all that bad, if everything just fades away to nothingness

The Primordial Serpents are Jews. They're lying to you. Kaath and Frampt are the same organism in fact, two heads on the same Hydra.

Link the fire and you burn your soul. You will die, and another will need to take your place, but wait. All the Gods are finally dead by your hand. What will come of the world when you're gone? You've ensured that the only powerful entities are now the serpents. Choose the dark end? The hydra reveals itself, the Gods are all dead, the fire is gone, and now the world descends into an era of chaos, again with only the serpents being all powerful.

In the era of the Dragons, the world was perfect. All was in order. The Dragons were a perfect power structure and there was stability.
The Primordial Serpents instigated the Lords into fighting the Dragons and begin the era of fire, which the serpents knew was doomed to fail.

Its literally: Fight for nothing and get Jewed: The Game

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>>383733592
>mfw (God's) Chosen Undead

>>383733592
They're not actually the same being, although they are symbolically in a sense. They want different things, but in the end the cycle is going to continue, and nothing can stop the age of fire ending. Thus while they are different beings, the outcome from whatever you choose doesn't really matter, hence they are often represented as two sides of the same coin.

Smough is USA

Ornstein is Israel

Both are teamed up and guarding an illusory lady of liberty in a walled in police state.

The illusion of this woman is perpetuated by a literal serpentine tranny who has the Crescent Moon as his symbol.

Miyazaki knew exactly what he was doing.

the age of fire is the least bad age

>>383733984
Maybe, but at some point people have to accept that its over. Trying to prolong it unnaturally is what caused half the fucking problems in the first place

>>383733550
While Gwyn is a dick, I don't think that he was responsible for hollowing. The Darksign is what's left of Gwyn's attempt at stopping people from becoming Undead, and therefore hollowing. DaS3 makes it abundantly clear that the Darksign = fire's fading power. It shows up when something made by, or sustained by Fire, breaks down. So when Gwyn sealed humanity at the dawn of time, the Darksign is emblematic of this seal losing its' strength, which should be intuitive as the Darksign only happens when the flames fade, as opposed to when they're going strong. The Darksign appearing on you makes you incapable of dying for real, which implies that the seal itself was originally meant to force people to die in the first place. People aren't meant to die of old age, they're meant to be immortal like Gwyn and his buddies were. Nito had to actively expend his power to force people to die, and this is because it was going against the natural order.

Hollowing is just a side effect of the flames fading. The disparity between life and death breaks down as fire, which props up all disparity, breaks down, which means that things that die don't really die anymore.

While suppressing immortality to limit man's powerlevel is certainly a major dick move, he didn't cause hollowing. Unless, of course, you're one of those people who thinks that immortality is a curse, in which case Gwyn did humanity a favor.

Kaathe, the age of fire was never meant to be extended. It was supposed to be the age of ancients, the age of fire then the age of dark (man).

>>383734151
Yes, yes, keep trying to snuff out those flames. The dark is good for you, you won't become a hollow or worse, yes, good...

>>383734120
Hmmm you definitely interpreted events in the game very differently from me. I thought that the darksign is like a ring of fire preventing the spread of humanity. The dark soul is obviously (to my eyes) the shadow cast by the light emitted from the lord souls (which are represented as fire). The dark sign is thus a barrier that stops the shadow from falling across the world, and separates the dark and stops it being unified (which Gael seeks to do in the end).

I don't think the darkling was what stopped people hollowing, I think it was what caused hollowing by stopping the natural progression into the age of dark following the light. Where did you get the impression Nito forced people to die? I'm not saying you are wrong, Im just curious.

Well one of these merchants will buy your extra junk and the other hangs out with the FourKids and Dickwraiths.

>>383734120
>The disparity between life and death breaks down as fire, which props up all disparity, breaks down, which means that things that die don't really die anymore.
Why don't you rise in-place (like skeletons do)?
Why do you respawn at the bonfire? It makes me think that you're somehow chained to fire, rather than simply being unable to die
Also, why doesn't the end of fire ending result in an age of grey?

>>383734120
>>383734706
Just to be clear, I guess I disagree that the darksign is meant to be a failure of the original seal, rather it is just the remains of the seal (hence the ring of fire is very low). It has been corrupted and perverted, but it still does what it was intended to do, which is to keep humans in their place

>>383734092
provided that it comes back around again, sure
but this wasn't known until DS3

>>383735042
There are some hints that there will be a new age of fire. characters say that flames will eventually return to shadow. But its not clear when. It probably has something to do when the painted world of ash comes to an end, it will all begin again.

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>>383732385
It is YA BOI

>>383734339
The curse happened because the age of fire was extended in the first place.

>>383734706
There are several indications that the Darksign means a broken seal of fire:
>In DaS3, the Sun turns into a darksign when the flames get on their last breath. Since DaS1 we've known that the Sun is a construct powered by Fire, that's why it goes out when you kill Gwynevere. DaS3 just makes it more explicit. Construct of Fire -> broken/failed/corrupted -> darksign.

>In DaS3, the Ringed Knight armor states that it was sealed by Fire to hold back the Abyss in it. However, the armor still retains it's own free will (something made explicit in it's description), something that's characteristic of Abyss-possessed objects. Were the seal still working properly one would expect this not to be the case. Furthermore, just by looking at the thing, you can see the Abyss proudly displayed on the chestpiece, the seal of flame has been pushed back to the perimeter by the power of Darkness. Seal of fire -> broken/failed/corrupted -> darksign

As for Nito, maintaining Death took effort on his part, as given by:
http://darksouls.wikidot.com/lord-soul
>The power of his soul is so great that it satiates the Lordvessel, despite the fact that much of its energy has already been offered to death.
And before you claim that Undeath was only a thing AFTER Gwyn linked the flame in the first place (which would implicate Gwyn in the creation of the Undead), know that there were Undead that existed in Anor Londo's heyday, before Gwyn ever linked the First Flame:
http://darksouls.wikidot.com/purple-coward-s-crystal
Which states that Undead fights were a popular spectator sport among the Gods. This leads us to conclude that the Undead showing up were not a machination of Gwyn as he linked the flame, but that his linking of the flame was a response to their sudden appearance.

These things hint strongly at the idea that the God's seal on mankind was to force them to stay mortal. When the seal fades alongside fire, it stops working properly and humans go Undead.

>>383735536
>the Sun is a construct powered by Fire, that's why it goes out when you kill Gwynevere
I thought it was an illusion cast my Gwyndolin

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>>383735431
>For this reason the gods cast a seal of fire upon such armor, and those who possessed them.

>>383734851
Skellies only rise in-place because Necromancers cast magic that force them to revive in place. You respawn at the Bonfire because bonfires are what your character identifies as "home."
http://darksouls.wikidot.com/homeward
In "theory," an Undead would spawn back wherever you call home. But an Undead has no home, save the bonfire.

Ending the fire doesn't result in a new age of grey because disparity isn't a pandora's box that you can close. Once the world is defined by pairs of "THING" and "NOT THING," the death of "THING" results in the dominance of "NOT THING," which is still disparity. Hence an age of dark, not grey.

>>383732385
>So, who's actually right, Frampt, or Kaathe?
It's ~~~ambiguous~~~

>>383735707
Either way, it doesn't exist when the flames start fading. Gwyndolin cast his spell -- and the distinction between illusions, golems, and constructs in Souls is VERY fuzzy -- because the normal Sun stopped working properly in Anor Londo after the Gods skipped town and the fires started going out. It doesn't function normally when the flames start fading.

>>383735536
I agree it is broken, in that it is corrupted, I just disagree on its original purpose. I think Gwyn put it there to restrain humanity aka the abyss

Were the undead in Anor Londo already hollowing? I forget, but if not then it might still be that Gwyn's linking was part of the problem for the undead.

In any case you make good points I need to think more about it

>>383735723
The abyss is the shadow that was meant to naturally come after the fire. The curse only occurs because of the unnatural extension of the flame, by Gwyn for example doing exactly what your image shows

>>383735431
Holy shit are you litterally retarded? The curse happens because the fire was going out not because it was prolonged

How can a human being be THIS stupid? I refuse to believe this post is not a ruse

>>383735731
>Once, a mad king was born to the pygmy royalty and Shira, knight of Filianore, put him to rest. But Shira's cross spear, unable to kill the undying king, only pinned itself to him. Shira delivered them together to the darkroom, where she stayed and held them close.
I don't think you'd respawn at your home without the darksign
I think you'd be completely unable to die

>Ending the fire doesn't result in a new age of grey because disparity isn't a pandora's box that you can close. Once the world is defined by pairs of "THING" and "NOT THING," the death of "THING" results in the dominance of "NOT THING," which is still disparity. Hence an age of dark, not grey.
fair enough

>>383736009
The curse existed before Gwyn ever linked the flame. There were Undead gladiator matches in the original Age of Fire.

>>383736043
A bit of an overreaction maybe?
The point is that the fire was fading and so the darksign was made to prolong it (that poster is saying, I'm not necessarily agreeing, but it is at least plausible). Gwyn was using undead and the darklsign to keep the flame kindled for as long as possible. If not for him there wouldn't be all this hollowing.

>>383736048
The corpse on Shira's weapon has horns and shit, anon, it's clearly not a normal man, or even a normal undead. People who got fucked up by mutations do what they want, the rules don't apply to them.

>>383736083
The curse was created with the ringed city, not when he first linked the flame. Linking the flame had nothing to do with this, it happened way later.

>>383736315
>The curse was created with the ringed city, not when he first linked the flame.
That's not what you said.

>>383736009
>The curse only occurs because of the unnatural extension of the flame,

>>383736259
It's like Manus - the result of what happens when the darkness takes over

>>383736223
If the fire wasnt kept lit there would be litterally nothing but hollowing, thats the entire point of the game

Kill yourself retard

>>383732706
Nice

>>383735536
I still think that the biggest issue of all this is not the fact that "muh cycles"(the biggest asspull after parallel universes or time travels), but the thing that we actually didn´t get the real closure everyone wanted.

I mean the whole real question about "what is the dark souls" etc. was only answered in the last dlc and the real ending of dark souls is...that this world is shit, we will now go into the painting and make another world.

While I think Miyazaki really had a vague idea about this triology, I guess the reason that namco fucked from over, because of das2. He wanted to finish this asap.

Either he wanted to make continous stuff like he did in 1 and 3, or he wanted to make 3 new kingdoms each of them telling you the whole story.

DaS1 -> Introduction
DaS2 -> what is the curse
DaS3 -> what is the dark souls and the flame?

>>383735871
Humanity is not the Abyss. The two concepts are distinct. The Abyss is wild, chaotic, mutated Humanity. It isn't "normal" humanity, it's what happens when your normally-docile humanity chimps out and fucks your shit up, which it normally doesn't do. In fact, literally the sole reason the Deep even was introduced, as a concept, was to make this distinction explicit.

As for New Londo, they say that it was once an Undead City, but whether it became a haven for the Undead before or after Gwyn linked the fire is never stated. While the Undead certainly existed during Gwyn's time, before he left for the Kiln, whether they had moved en masse into New Londo before he left is never said.

>>383736404
The unnatural extension of the flame was not only the linking of the fire, but also the separation and segregation of the dark soul (shadow/abyss)

>>383736454
>The Darksign signifies an accursed Undead. Those branded with it are reborn after death, but will one day lose their mind and go Hollow.

No it is not the entire point of the game

>>383732385
These threads are pointless the "lore" is up for interpretation, they give you a general idea of whats going on and the rest is vague cryptic bullshit to keep autistitic fanboys arguing while Hidetaka jerks himself into a coma.

>>383736727
Abyss is what happens when humanity gets restless. Because of the unnatural age of fire. Humanity yearns to be united, and its separation via the darksign causes it to corrupt, leading to the shit in oolacile and stuff

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>>383732706

>>383736614
>DaS2 -> what is the curse
Too bad it did a fucking awful job of answering this. "The curse of life is the curse of want" my ass. Wanting shit is the only thing that keeps the effects of the curse at bay and staves off hollowing.

>>383732706
What is this?

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>>383732570
>It never occur to me that the serpents could just have normal human bodies and abnormally long-ass necks.
>That's terrifying to imagine in DS1

>>383737245
A staff in Conan the Barbarian

>>383735314
>Good Hunter, have you seen the thread of light?.jpg

>>383737041
what movie

>>383737195
>>383736614
Was DS2 lore that bad?

>>383737041
Nice!

>>383737018
Humanity doesn't spontaneously go wild, though. You have to force it. It's not like Manus' humanity went kaboom one day on it's own, Oolacile sorcerers had to first revive him from the dead, and then fuck with his soul first. You find Pus of Men everywhere in Lothric because Oceiros' sick experiments got loose, and the Pilgrim Butterflies are Londor fuckery. Those blacksmiths in TRC had Abyss samples like they were wielding the Abyss version of Chaos Embers, Oolacile probably learned their "drive humanity wild" techniques from them since they had missionaries there. Bottom line, it is in no way natural. You only ever see it show up as a result of men messing with their own souls through spellwork.

>>383737612
It had some mildly interesting concepts but the execution was awful and garbled. Development hell will do that.

>>383737803
Do you think manus would have happened without the sealing of the ringed city?

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How does it feeeeel Seathe?

>>383737991
Since it happened even with it, yes. The Oolacile sorcerers learned of TRC's wild humanity creation techniques somehow, and they were mad scientists who were just itching to try it out. Really, nothing could have stopped them.

>>383738209
hmmm fair enough
what about locusts? they are natural beings of the abyss not anything to do with sick experiments

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>>383738140
SKREEEEEEE

>>383738384
Giant humanity sprites are also "natural" aka pure creations of the Abyss, what's your point? The Abyss itself is unnatural, it is something that should not be. Even if it can shit out bizarre lifeforms that should not be (like how the Chaos Flame can do similarly) those things are also by extension things that should not be.

The cycle always restarts in the end anyways it's all pointless, Kaathe and Frampt are both just fucking with people seeing who can make them do stupider shit.

>>383738567
So do they spend all their time giggling like beavis and butthead in the background?

>>383738567
What a way to whiff an entire franchise.

Guess Miyazaki really didn't want to make Dark Souls anymore.

>>383738567
I mean sure it will, but everyone in this current reality will be fucked so you still want to prevent it. Like if the Big Crunch theory is right and after this universe dies another one is born, this universe still dies and we'd all like to prevent that.

>>383738402
So if Seath was indeed the Dear Duke's Freja, then why was there a Paledrake soul just there? ==It's weird.

>>383733592
>In the era of the Dragons, the world was perfect. All was in order. The Dragons were a perfect power structure and there was stability.
Only if you were a dragon.

I'm glad the fuckers are both dead by DS3.

>>383740989
Dude reincarnation of souls lmao

>>383736454
You are literally retarded. The prolonging of the fire and the creation of the Darksign is what created the hollowing curse. The opening fucking cutscene of Dark Souls 1 tells us that the Darksign brand keeps you from dying while draining your humanity until you hollow.

Neck yourself

>>383738567
>The cycle always restarts in the end anyways
So, I take you didn't finish DaS3

>>383742121
DaS3 confirms it you mong

>>383732570

you can see his shoulders when he dies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eJJtxg0TGw

>>383742354
NANI

>>383737612
DaS2 bordered between absolutely irrelevant and barely relevant at all. It felt like a weird sidestory to the main game.

>>383742262
You didn't pay attention at all then.
Every time someone links the first flame it decreases it's power significantly, by the time you link it in 3 there barely enough energy to cover your own self in flames, the flame nearly extinguished by that point

>>383742972
And when you let the fire die the Firekeeper tells you that one day new fire will spontaneously come into being again, hence completing the cycle of light -> dark -> light -> dark -> etc

>>383743147
The cycle is actually necessary for the world to maintain normalacy.
If the world was stuck in an Age of Dark forever, we would see a similar situation as the Painted World.

>>383742972
The first flame is effectively cannibalizing itself by trying to force a linking via the Lords of Cinder.
Cannibalism is a major motif in DaS III

>>383742354

man, I always thought those statues were in-universe misinterpretations

what in the fuck

also why did frampt and kathe never come back?!?

>>383738384
>what about locusts? they are natural beings of the abyss not anything to do with sick experiments
The Locusts are abominations spawned from rotten humanity, just like the flies were from the rot in the painted world and those things in the Deep.

>>383743601
>also why did frampt and kathe never come back?!?
Because they are dead, there is actually a painting in the chapel in the Painted World of Ariandel showing the Hollows of Londor discovering a pair of dead snakes.

>>383743490
>Cannibalism is a major motif in DaS III

cite examples

>>383743601
>also why did frampt and kathe never come back?!?
Enough time passed, they died from age

>>383743780

pics?

>>383743880

who the fuck dies of old age in the dark souls universe?

>>383743801
>Aldrich eating undead for their dark souls and becoming a giant puddle
>Gael eating the pygmy lords
>First flame cannibalizing itself by trying to force through a linking via individuals that already linked the fire
Those are the big ones that I can name off hand and that is ignoring all of the stuff in the first game too.

>>383743904
Have a video
https://youtu.be/pKE8NE65JoQ?t=508

>>383743692
Nah, they explicitly tell you that they're from the Abyss, not rotten shit. Besides, rotted stuff looks slimy, or like it lives in water. The locusts don't, they have a completely different visual motif.

>>383744213
>linking to Vaati

>>383744289
>Besides, rotted stuff looks slimy, or like it lives in water. The locusts don't, they have a completely different visual motif.
You find them in a swamp, remember?
And I'm sorry about linking vaati, but I can never find a good picture of the painting in the chapel at 8:30 in the video.

>>383744464
And? You find the slug monsters in the swamp in CotD and they look totally different. You're still ignoring their dialogue/item description where they tell you in no uncertain terms that what you're saying can't be.

>>383744601
>You're still ignoring their dialogue/item description where they tell you in no uncertain terms that what you're saying can't be.
Which ones in particular?
Also
>dialogue
The locusts outright lie to you in one instance. They aren't meant to be trustworthy.

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>>383744464
>>383744213
>>383743904
>>383743780

>>383743979
Most of the demon race

>>383744703
>Which ones in particular?
>An empty head of a white-faced locust that rose from an abyssal swamp.
>Perhaps that someone is you? Did you not arise from the Abyss, and did you not resist drowning in the Age of Fire?
They show their true colors in http://darksouls3.wiki.fextralife.com/White+Preacher+Head

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>>383744716

I'm impressed with From's artistic subtlety if that's actually the intended meaning. There were more than two serpents, though.

>>383744860
How does that contradict what I'm saying?

>>383744870
>There were more than two serpents, though
True, but Frampt and Kaathe were clearly the most important ones.
I still am disappointed that we don't fully learn about the connection between the dragons and the snakes.

>>383737574
Requiem for a Dream

>>383744716
Why would the Sable Church kill the serpents?

>>383732385
Nothing you do matters

>>383745049
Abyssal humanity isn't rotted, quite the opposite, it's growing wildly out of control and ever-dynamic. Rotted humanity is stagnant, which is why it's associated with the Deep. If the Locusts are the product of abyssal humanity, they were not the product of rot.

>>383745148

As another poster says, it looks as though they are discovering the corpses of the snakes. The bottom figures display languish, the right figure displays closer examination in disbelief, the left figure seems to display shock. I'd guess that they had already worshiped the serpents before discovering that they were deceased.

>>383745207
Except for taking the flame for yourself in one of the secret endings

>>383745305
>Rotted humanity is stagnant, which is why it's associated with the Deep.
The Locusts are associated with swamps. Stagnant water is necessary for the formation of swamps.

>>383745696
Unless it has the Abyss underneath it, which by definition is not stagnating. Would you claim that the Chaos Flame is stagnant and not the all devouring force of consumption that it is, because Blighttown exists over Lost Izalith?

>>383745940
Let me try to be a little more clearer
>The Deep is associated with Rotten Humanity, Water, and Insects
>The Rot of Ariandel is associated with Rotten Humanity, Blood, and Flies (Bus/Insects)
>The Locusts are Insects/Bugs
>They live in a swamp = stagnate water
>They spend their days eating the dark souls of undeads

We do see Abyssal enemies in the Ringed City in the form of Gael and the Ringed Knights as well as in the base game in the form of the pus of man, both bear little resemble to the Locusts.

>Would you claim that the Chaos Flame is stagnant and not the all devouring force of consumption that it is, because Blighttown exists over Lost Izalith?

Its been a while, but did the Chaos flame ever threaten to spread beyond Izalith?

>>383745148
It was all part of Kaathe's master plan

>>383732385
Neither. Both. They, and everyone else in the story of Dark Souls are powerless. The series is a monument to existential despair.

>>383747363
So getting killed was part of Kaathe's plan?

>>383744289
whats wrong with vaati?

>>383747507
Of course.

>>383747509
He's gets quite a few things wrong and he plagiarized someone's bloodborne lore essay.

>>383747509
he's a manlet

>>383747723
>He's gets quite a few things wrong
Not that bad, to be expected

>he plagiarized someone's bloodborne lore essay.
thats a dick move though, you got a source?

>>383747509
None of his ideas are really original, they are simply popular/common theories that he repackages.

Now, if you want to see a real good lore video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FZiAi9LDIs

>>383744716
>frampt still influences the linking fanboys (oceiros and his kin)
>kaathe still influences edgy dark age dudes (sable church)
Nice from

>>383749147
>40 min video
well thanks dude, gimme something to watch tomorrow

>>383749286
Don't the twin princes follow the angelic faith, which is basically a Londor ruse?

>>383747509
>>383749147
Why do Aussies love Dark Souls

>>383749770
Weren't the angels considered heretic? That's why you got that lady imprisoned in a cage.
Either way, There's still this urge and responsability over the princes, they raise them to be heroes who link the fire. Whoever they worship is not that important, they still what the old jew snek wants them to do. But we should also consider how the princes rebel against this shit and wait for the world to die. So basically, they're turning heretic.

>>383750051
Because they're used to living in a hostile hellscape

>>383750394
>Weren't the angels considered heretic? That's why you got that lady imprisoned in a cage.
There was some sort of civil war that occurred in Lothric that was probably sparked when the princes refused their duty.
Also, Gertrude was (if I'm remembering right) the prince's half-sister.

>>383744860
>Perhaps that someone is you? Did you not arise from the Abyss, and did you not resist drowning in the Age of Fire?
Is this talking to the player? What does it mean by this? Especially that second part with drowning in the age of fire.

>>383750914
Its one of those weird item descriptions that feels a lot like dialogue.

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I just 100 percent the game and it feels so good. Who else knows this feeling?

>>383752417
Dark Souls, 2, or 3? How was grinding for covenant items?

Hard to tell but i find it extremely unlikely that Frampt is in the right, he lies to you telling you that liking the fire will undo the curse. The fact that a second game exists proves that Frampt is full of shit.

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>>383752541
Dark Souls. The covenant item farming wasn't that hard since crow people dropped them like crazy. Already had a good stock of sunlight medals from summoning solaire a bunch of times and it taking 2 and a half playthroughs to finish.

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>>383752816
Great work! Congratulations.

Didn't bother with DS2 and DS3 achievements because it required you to play quite a lot of online for certain magic/pyromancy/miracles and get all the gestures and rings.