What makes an open world game, "good"?

>>383708203

Side quests. If you disagree then name me a "good open world game" with "shitty side quests".

>>383708203
Immersion. And qt's

Bad:
>Checklist of stuff to do

Good
>Interactivity with the world that no NPC tells you to go do

>>383708353

Just Cause 2, MGSV, Zelda BoTW all had world interactivity and all had boring as fuck open worlds.

>>383708442
And none of them did it right

>>383708203
Game that is "naturally" interesting in the sense that each place you discover means a new type of fun rather than an accomplishment

>>383708203
1st: Huge world with geographical changes over large distance. Lots of medium to large towns that are actually populated (not 6 npcs and 10 buildings) with no impact on main quest line.

2nd: Great sidequests and lots of them. Finishing the quests should have a real impact in the world, or at least the locale it was finished. In the towns and cities outside of main quest line you should be able to impact dialogue, npc/store/soldier presence, appearence of city etc.

Make the world breathing and worth immersing yourself into.

Does /v/ just want an open world game with every pixel of the map handcrafted and every possible side quest something different with unique loot? Because unless a game goes through a development cycle of 20 years it will never happen.

Open world games aren't inherently bad because they don't meet your impossible standards.

A reason to explore the world. Ability to change the landscape. Increase travel speed through progression. Focus on verticality. Well animated character movement. Quick loading times. Attention to sound design.

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>>383709023
Playing a video game for a story is like eating soup for the spoon. When I see a cave, I should want to go into that cave because I want to see whats inside not because because some NPC told me to go in there. Or worse, choose not to go into the cave at all because I simply haven't gotten the quest yet.

The only game in recent years to give me that sensation was the Souls series and it wasn't even a true open world.

>>383709354
>the definition of story in video games is a NPC telling you to do something
>the only way story can be told is through NPCS

i am not sure which story driven games you have been playing but they sound pretty shitty.

>>383708203
Ah fuck off, cunt.

Both of these games were 7//10s (7.5s if we're being generous) that never deserved the amount of praise they got and are the literal definition of /v/ meme games

BOTW was simplistic and occasionally had something interesting to do like solve a maze, bowl, race to the top of a mountain, etc... But was completely bogged down by repetitive enemies, a big empty world, shit Shrines/Dungeons, and ass weapon durability

TW3 has pretty graphics, good voice acting, and the amount of detail put into everything from environments to clothing was impressive. Story was k and the whole "Dude it's dark and gets under your skin" is some normal-fag horseshit. Dark tones in TW3 is to feels what Amy Schumer's vulgarity is to comedy. But I could honestly forgive this if not for the fact that we're 3 games in and combat is still ass. It gets better the more your progress, but holy fuck does it blow. Making potions and oils are always tedious and never fun no matter how much "immersion" you claim to enjoy. True, there are more enemies, but the grand majority will be Drowners, Nekkers, and humans. Major monster fights are k. Also, the dialogue is good, yet they seriously needed to get to the fucking point. Every conversation feels like it dragged on 25% longer than it should have

>>383708203
The first and most important thing is that size means nothing at best it fits. At worst it makes the game annoying to play. Tailor the size of t he map to the amount of content. From there make NEW content for each area. Don't reuse enemies and NPC models. Its a different area it shouldn't feel like other areas. Even if its the same basic enemy like a zombie it should be different based on the items and history of that different area. The only exception is when something from one area invades another like say a robot army. You should be able to look at any NPC and tell where its origins are and if you are good where its been. On top of this quests need to be different. Only a handful of quests should be fetch quests or revolve around getting to the "end" of an area with nothing in the "middle" of the quest. Players should never feel like they are doing the same quest just in a different location.

Optionally but almost always makes the game better is to make everything in the world to start with. No level scaling. If you are a level 1 fucknugget you should be able to get "end game" loot if you can figure out its location and somehow get to it. Different areas of the world SHOULD be more dangerous than others. And some areas should be easier. Just don't make it obvious. Let the player figure out through clues or experience where they should go or if they are ready for it.

>>383709569
Cite some good ones for me

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>>383709023
/v/ wants a linear railshooter with focus on bullying durring multiplayer.

Not sure about the soundtrack, but I do remember /v/ having shit taste in music.

/v/ hates post-processing, so aesthetically, I would imagine the game would have Gouraud shadding to piss of pixelbros and GRAPHICS-fags alike. No DoF, no bloom, no chromatic culling vignette cell-splicing. Just flat shaded polygons.

Wait... I think I found the perfect game. Pic related.

>>383710112
>last of us
>alan wake
>walking dead
>heavy rain
>L.A noire
>bioshock (if you like the setting)
>red dead series
>uncharted series
>ect

>>383710809
shit i forgot:
>25% of major ps2 games have brilliant stories and apply great story telling skills

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>>383710809
>Shitty cinematic experiences are his idea of good story telling

We're not going to see eye to eye on this

>>383709354

Then perhaps open world games aren't for you. You're either supposed to explore a cave for the sake of exploration or because you have a quest. There are games that do this both ways. What other methods should a game use to make you, "want," to explore that cave?

If you say a good story, that's going to require more dialogue or cut scenes or NPC's.

>>383711367
In order for me to want to explore the cave or engage in exploration I need to be given a reason. If I look at that cave and know there is going to be nothing special in there. I have no reason to explore it. For Souls, it comes in the form of gear. Because there is such a small amount of weapons and armor in Souls, the thing you find in that random cave might just be something that proves useful to you through the rest of the game. So it works.

>>383708203
sandbox gameplay

Nothing. Both The Witcher 3 and Breath of the Wild are open world trash like every other open world game.

>>383709023
>Open world games aren't inherently bad because they don't meet your impossible standards.
Open world games are inherently bad because they never make the insane length of their map justifiable with content properly present in it. They always have to thin out the exact same amount of content a normal non open world game would have across a map that is too big precisely so they can call the game open world.

That is why they're bad and hub-based or linear games are infinitely superior.

>>383711512

Okay, how does this not apply to BotW then? Sure you could go around the whole game with the shitty weapons dropped from common enemies but all the shrines have hidden chests or enemies that contain better weapons and armor than what you'd find in the wild most of the time. And that's not mentioning the orbs which boost your health and stamina which allow you to get even better weapons and armor later on.

>>383711921
Because of the weapon degradation in the game.Nothing you find at any point is really going to be particularly special. It will be more useful for you, for a little while. But at the end of the day its just a weapon. And just a finite weapon at that

>>383711767
I don't agree. You can't sum up things with "content". The point of a open world can be the gameplay, ie have different approaches, random encounter, etc.
The FPS genre for exemple (crysis, far cry 3), can really benefit from being open world.

>>383708203
nothing. they are all trash.

>>383712189
You can have big maps that aren't open wold. Crysis 1 through 3 is a perfect example.

>>383712189
Crysis is not open world. It's a linear game that just happens to have really big maps.

>>383711767
Mass Effect 1 had the best compromise, with open world exploration as basically an optional time sink, while the main game progressed only by performing missions on handcrafted worlds.

>>383711046
?1/?/!???/?!/!//?

>>383712271
>>383712351
I know but the "open" part of the game were the best and i think that the sequels would have gone open world if the game stayed on PC.
The gameplay was designed around this.

>>383708203
>>383708353
Somebody post the love letter to Gothic video.

>>383712639
No, you dolt. The game had the perfect balance of being open levels while not being completely empty trash like actual open world games. Consoles had nothing to do with it.

>>383710809
Literally none of those have good stories.

>>383712838
The first part of your post is correct but the second part is not. Consoles are the only reason that the crysis series became more linear as the series went on

>>383708203
World crafting.

Give me all the Todd posts you want, but Bethesda does one thing incredibly right, and that's designing and making their worlds.

>>383712838
>The game had the perfect balance of being open levels while not being completely empty trash like actual open world games
No, i had more fun with far cry 3.
>Consoles had nothing to do with it.
Because of their specs their is no way they could have done this anyway. Did you how crysis 1 runned on consoles?

MGSV had good main sections though and Afganistan was comfy and overall great.

Shit didn't start sucking until we got to Africa.

Just Cause is basically a sandbox. Zelda looked meh as fuck honestly.

>>383708248
fallout 3, 4 and NV

>>383712991
Pretty much this

No world has ever felt as alive to be as Morrowind did.

>>383710809
Half of those are 3D animated films where you oress a button to witness the next scene.

Jesus, /v/ realy does hate vidya

>>383713016
>No, i had more fun with far cry 3.
Begone, open world fag

>>383713160
FPS have no futur w/o open world. I want a next gen stalker with a lovecraft background.

>>383708203
The world can change noticeably depending on your actions. And not just by the main storyline either.

I think the appeal is that every time you play, and every person who plays, it will be a different experience for them going out into the world. Therefore the world will end up looking different each time and to each player.

I would rather a less plot/story heavy game that has world interactivity more fleshed out, than a plot driven game in an open world where it's shallow. Better a mile deep pond 10 feet wide, than a milde wide lake 10 feet deep. Like I'd take an open world game that happens even just in one city, as long as it's very interactive, detailed and prone to change based on your actions (like if you buy and set up a building, or decide to kill this or that person). Rather that than a huge open map with tons of locations and towns, but the most you can interact with them is a few lines of repeated dialogue.

Skyrim and Asscreed 2 + brohood were the only games to do Open Worlds right.

>>383713016
>I enjoy far casual 3 over crysis
Jesus fucking christ

>>383713294
How is S.T..A.L.K.E.R not an open world though?

>>383713294
This is the most rebbit post I have ever read. Well done.

>>383712159

I disagree, I think the degradation makes finding the good weapons more enjoyable and worthwhile . I'll save them particularly for tougher enemies or boss battles. That way I can end the battles quicker, taking less damage instead of having to go through like 5 weapons in one battle.

If I don't have a higher damage output weapon, I'll seek out shrines just so I can have one for backup. Same goes for shields and arrows.

>>383713667
Definitely this. Anybody who thinks that weapon degradation ruins BOTW is simply retarded

>>383713294

FPS have no future as single player games. Maybe you'll get an action packed 4 hour campaign that's just a glorified tutorial based around the maps but that's about it.

There hasn't been any innovasjun in FPS since HL2s gravity gun. So what's the point. No one likes stories in FPS anyway.

>>383713113
But all 3 of those had some really great sidequests.

>>383713667
Nioh had weapon degredation in their second beta and they nixed it for Diablo loot. Literally no one liked it and only fanboys would defend such a mechanic.

>>383708203
Both Witcher 3 and Zelda are pretty good.
But whereas Witcher 3 is just the same open-world bullshit we got since forever with more polish whereas Zelda actually tried to innovate and succeeded mostly

>>383714136
No one liked it because no one liked Nioh. If I wanted to play a shitty Dark Souls clone I'd play Dark Souls 2.

>>383708203
If the simple act of traversing the game world is fun, then its a good open world game. BoTW and Spiderman 2 are examples of this, Witcher 3 isn't.

>>383714282
Witcher 3 is only good because you're supposed to ignore the open world entirely, only using it as a space for questing and traveling to happen.

>>383713667
What you seem to be describing here is how something that should be a fun detour becomes a necessary chore to circumvent a poorly implemented mechanic.

>>383708203
I think non-GTA open-world games are really hard to do due balancing issues, the start of the game is difficult since you're basically thrown to the game naked but the moment you get good equipment it gets really easy since you're basically a walking talk

>>383713964
For every Wasteland survival guide there was an Agathas song

For every Beyond the beef there was a Cold, cold heart

For every Silver Shroud there was six gorillion radiant quests.

I agree there was some great ones, but the sidequesting averages to meh at best

>>383708353
Agreed and also the reason why I don't get why people went so nuts for RDR. It LITERALLY gives you checklists of shit to do.

>>383714880
This shot confuses me to no end because the actual very first open world rpgs (pokemon, Gothic) handled these issues fucking perfectly by using the same common sense game design philosophy of linear games.

>>383710809
You made that list to deliberately bait /v/, didn't you?

>>383713113
New Vegas has literally the best sidequests of any game ever.

>>383715063
Because RDR came before the industry was saturated with the genre. Also its pretty much the only cowboy game on the market

>>383708203
fun combat/gameplay mechanics

>>383714665

How exactly is it poorly implemented? I like going to the shrines and finding good weapons and armor or at the very least getting items to buy or craft some. It isn't necessary either because you could get through the entire game visiting only the four tutorial shrines. But to me it doesn't feel like a chore, just another fun aspect of gameplay.

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>>383715217
>Also its pretty much the only cowboy game on the market
Correct. I tried making that point in a thread the other day and I got called a "salty pkek".

>>383715063
Rockstar games in general are the worst kind of open-world games. NOTHING you do in the open world matters, it's all just confined to missions that basically never use the open-world in any meaningful way. It is so goddamn shallow. The only thing you do in the actual open-world is fucking around, and I seriously don't see how that is in any way fun now that we've got half a dozen or so of these games.

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Koroks are great

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>>383713935
>>383713294

FPS has no futur with open world. It's childwork. Kid's toy. Nobody care about story or explanation. Just giv me the PvP kill. Let me end your life.

Childish really. Liner levels. Let me kill MOBs. MOBs die. Toon get strong. Move on, maybe watch a cutscene, I don;t car.

Point is, stops wasting time. I get paid for this shit. Pwn the faggot for the money. Next level. Maybe move to next dungeon.

But these games. These games with their fishing mechanics and their make-the-armour out of the rock ore or follow the marker to the tower.

Simple shit. Baby shit. Shit that comes from baby.

Give me PvP kill. Maybe a platform to jump and shoot from. Life becoming the beautiful now fuck you.

>>383708203
Witcher 3' s world is NOT procedurally generated, you underage summer cock fucker.

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>>383715646
Dumb dog poster.

>>383715739
Right? Totally meant to make a new thread with that.

>>383708248
Wholeheartedly agree
If your only reward for going of the beaten path is a few shitty mobs and maybe a higher level sword or something, why bother

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Give it the same elements that made Lordran good in Dark Souls 1
>experienced players can skip to later areas if they know the shortcuts
>every skybox setpiece (with exceptions) can be visited
>certain secret areas are hinted at by NPCs or by the environments
>players can revisit older areas and find changes like new items or characters

No quest/objective markers. Seriously, they kill all the fun of exploration. The notes and named points of interest on the map (i.e. Town of Rivendell, or The Big Rock, or The Witches' Hut) in your journal should be enough.

>>383715976
>muh meme Souls
Kys

>>383715160
see
>>383715023

>>383716095
It's spelled "kiss" you ESL moron. Get a better grasp on English before posting here.

>>383715456
The open worlds aren't good but the missions are

>>383709643
Why is no one (you)'ing this man?

He's right, you know.

Witcher combat is utterly unforgivable.

Gameplay/combat/PUSHING BUTTONS/interaction>story/passively watching things happen/muh movies

Story driven games devoid of good gameplay are for old cat ladies. You're slow. Stop playing video games and start a family.

>>383716306
You're correct but you could have said as much without the reddit spacing.

>>383716306
>He's right, you know.
Contrarians are never right. Here's your (You), slut.

>>383708203
Is OP autistic? That pic isn't accurate

>>383716210
there are like 80 sidequests in new vegas
sure some of them are really short, but even those play into the larger narrative, allow you to roleplay and make the world feel more alive and real as a result.

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>witcher fags trying to shame anyone because of quests

>>383716542
But it is.

>>383715217
modern retards associate cowboys with mccree now.

RDR2 is going to be a cancer conga line of "HIGH NOON XDXD" references, nonstop

>>383716682
Nope.

>>383716738
Yes.

>>383716765
No.

>>383716442
This wasn't called reddit spacing as little as just a year or two ago.

If you didn't space out your shit anons would just tl;dr it. It was called a "block of text" or something or other.

Not everything is reddit, summerfag.

i don't look anything like that jimmy neutron numale fuck, either. So get that image out of your head. That's not who you're responding to.

>>383716972
This is autism.

>>383716972
You should stop needlessly double spacing just because some literal grade schoolers got upset with you and said tl;dr.

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>>383716972
Fucking this. I've been here for ages and have always used double spacing to separate thoughts or topics and not one person has ever had a problem with it. Suddenly it's 'reddit spacing' for some reason.

/v/ is truly a curious animal.

>>383716972
There is a happy medium between breaking every sentence and walls of text. They're called paragraphs.

>>383708442
>MGSV
>world interactivity

Name ONE. Because all I remember is there being gigantic empty field of fuck all to do, just to run through them to find random outposts with like four guys.

>>383708203

Zelda >> Witcher 3

Put 100s of hours into both

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>>383717323

>>383717195
>>383717094
Not him but FFS we're on 4chan.

I structure certain posts like this to get to the next point immediately and because I do not care about a good transition unless I am writing a wall of text for whatever reason

Easy to see, easy to read, and easy to pick out the exact part of an argument

>>383717185
this

>>383717710
Alright, you have me there, but that's only fun like one time and you're not really doing anything substantial.

>>383717956
its a great way to take enemies down actualy

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>>383716972
I believe the /reddit/spacing cmment was due to this.

On messageboards, the authors intent is to have their message be read.

Confirmation or aknowlegement is obtained either by upboats or (yous).

Without (yous) you feel like your statement has not been read
It's a cold dead feeling. Like being ignored back in school.

There are 3 ways of circumventing this. One is a tl:dr effort post. Nobody reads that shit, so it got riddiculed.

Redditposters are clever. They use this type of spacing to keep the reader reading.

What is he saying?

It's a trap. I am taking you on a journey.

My argumentative journey.

Suddenly, I am talking about politics. The white space between the lines of my stateme ts lull you into hypnosis.

Black lives really do matter.

Redditposting exploits this. Soon, you believe that linear, cinematic cartoons are games, black lives do matter, the holocaust actually happen, Denuvo is good, Haru is best girl even tho she got mangy hair and a huge forhead and that Undertale isn't homosex propoganda.

/fin

>>383718067
Don't they just spot the box sliding at them? I swear I tried it.

>>383718116
yeah but they dont have time to react, it isnt MGS2 , its only a alert if they can pull the radio on you

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>>383718110
Ai?

>>383717956
You can take enemies out with it.

It's actually a really good way to move around quickly while still being silent. Also good for catching up to vehicles without having to hop on d.walker or d.horse.

The utility is somewhat limited but if you start looking at hills as slides it does open up your options slightly.

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>>383718110
shit son.

>>383718214
>it isnt MGS2
And that's why I hate it.

>>383718261
Thats Anri you nincompoop.

>>383718432
because you cant just run in circles behind the deaf enemies ?

because they can see you from further than 6 feet from then?

because the desert is still better than the same orange bridge times 7?

>>383708203
Bullshit, there is no korok seed near that shrine, i know because i've looked. OP you fucking liar.

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>>383718110
>Redditposters are clever. They use this type of spacing to keep the reader reading.
I stopped reading there.

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>>383718608
sorry i dont know many gravure/jav ppl

>>383718613
>because you cant just run in circles behind the deaf enemies ?
Isn't there a suit in MGSV that makes your footsteps silent? Maybe that was peace walker.
>because they can see you from further than 6 feet from then?
The guards in MGSV can't see shit that normal people IRL would obviously see. Probably because it's a videogame.
>because the desert is still better than the same orange bridge times 7?
The game's map was part of the story, so it makes sense that it was "the same orange bridge times 7". Unlike MGSV which references shit like the Mujaheddin and the big war going on in Afghanistan only to have none of that actually happen in the games map.

>>383718840
Well shes a straight up porn star.

Open world games are like nesting dolls. There's the basic moment-to-moment feedback loop. If it's at least passable then the player can grapple with bigger things. Fallout 3 and New Vegas have merely passable loops for the most part. Fallout 4 has a stable loop. The difference is that Fallout 3, while an incoherent mess on any higher abstraction where roleplay gets done, has something above the basic loop. New Vegas suffers from problems of content distribution and environment design ('it feels empty') despite actually having more structured content than Fallout 3 by a staggering margin. Everything in Fallout 4, by contrast, surrenders to that loop (which is, admittedly, much better constructed and more stable than in 3 or New Vegas) and folds itself up quickly. Quests are rarely ever allowed to have enough content, engineering, or depth involved to last as long as something like Beyond the Beef.

Bethesda fans get defensive at this point, 'but Beyond the Beef was exceptionally good! It was one of the best quests in New Vegas!' they say. They're right. It is exceptionally good, and most quests in New Vegas are not as good. But it was clear that good structured content is a critical draw for these games and this particular piece of it was singled out for especial praise for years in essays and discussions. There's no reason to think Bethesda wasn't aware that more of that was something people wanted. So they could have targeted 'Beyond the Beef or better' as their standard and continuously built a mountain of top-shelf structured content but they didn't. They relied on the same test-cell grade cookie cutter crap. Instead of starting where New Vegas left off, their game shipped six months after The Witcher 3, which clearly took notes from New Vegas, and looked hopelessly antiquated. The pill is especially bitter because even the 'not as good' quests in New Vegas are generally far better than anything in Fallout 4.

>>383719432
>Isn't there a suit in MGSV that makes your footsteps silent? Maybe that was peace walker.
its a secret suit in mgs3

>The guards in MGSV can't see shit that normal people IRL would obviously see.
depending on the camo you are using they can see you from REALY far way.

>The game's map was part of the story,
yeah and the story in theory was a simulation of MGS1, there were no orange bridges on MGS1

>>383719656
Nigga, it was a SIMULATION, so of course it has shit in it that looks like a simulation, such as orange textures, like those test maps in Half Life 2.

I like the gameplay of MGS1 and MGS2 a lot more than MGS3 and onward, because it was about not being in guards sight lines, you had to sneak around them but past MGS3 the games use the camo system where you blend into the environment and sneak slowly through enemies. It's preference I guess.

>>383719474
(continued)
If the structured content isn't compelling, and I'll submit that one of the best bits of Far Harbor which drew praise was naked plagiarism so Fallout 4 generally fails in multiple directions, then the game has to rely on engineering to fill in the gap. The loop is stable in F4, but it's not particularly strong or compelling. The use of level-scaling feels like training wheels that never quite come off and when the player really needs them gone to start riding just right, they're still stuck there. And the engineering in Fallout 4 is not mature enough to replace whole bodies of structure with possibility spaces. Objecthood is simply not complete enough to be a sufficient draw on its own.

The Witcher 3 doesn't really rely much on engineering except to create a backdrop for what the game is actually about. It relies heavily on questing, the sandbox elements are very poor, even compared to Fallout 4. The story and quests are the real stars of the show, the sandbox is just scenery. Some say one is better than the other, but I think they're both lacking something but The Witcher 3 does what it sets out to do very well, while Fallout 4 seems to stumble at every opportunity.

>>383718110
this is a nice explanation

>>383708203
copy/pasted locations and Ubisoft collectibles

>>383717395


Witcher 3 >> Zelda

Put 100s of hours into both

pack the world full with stuff, lots of nice landscapes, collectibles that are fun, don't give a lot of limitation to where you can go

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>>383708203