What do developers need to do to make RTS relevant again?

Nothing, RTS are too hard for most players these days.

Why would they play an RTS when they could play FPS/MOBAs with their friends?

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>>383694667
A few things
>have a theme and setting that would be interesting for normgroids and pose a nice set of lore for autist to discover, no more IP rehashing or creating storyless or characterless settings like most RTS have been
>expand on the gameplay of the genre in a way that doesn't compromise the genres integrity like dawn of war 3s moba esque gameplay where you spam trash mobs and then use "super units" to carry everything
>have a cheap price, 20 dollars, so it's accessible to people who don't normally like RTS games yet not f2p so you don't need to add cancer
>balance it properly and avoid creating cancerous races/clans, and adopt a balancing model at the very start and stick with it

Is Tooth and Tail still a thing?

>>383694667
Make waifu bait units with r34 potential.

>>383694667
RTS games will never again be relevant as long as the video game market is controlled by casuals and middle aged moms. RTS is too complicated for these people.

>>383694667
Nuke the shit genre from orbit and make action rpgs instead

Nothing.It's boring shit and only pure autist breeds find it interesting genre

>>383694667

DEVS DO NOT I REPEAT DO NOT LISTEN TO THE SUGGESTIONS OF THE TOP 5% PLAYERS

Look at what happened to SC2.

>>383694667
Casualize micro.

>faggot running away like a coward
and this is why moba as a genre is shit

>>383695631
like it or not, that's the audience you need for the game to survive

>>383695546
Did the top 5% request no LAN, always online DRM, and shitty writing?

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>>383694667
>that webm

>>383696273

yes. They don't care about any of that stuff.

>>383694667
Stop falling for the esports meme.

>>383696454
>pro players don't care about LAN
Wow, somehow who parrots SC2 hate doesn't know shit. Never seen that before

>>383694667
Can you explain why you decided to use a webm of retards?

>>383696558

That didn't stop any of them from jumping on the SC2 wagon.

That webm physically hurt to watch, I can't decide who's more retarded

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>>383696610
I just semi-randomly picked a webm from my 4chan folder.

Here's a webm of a retarded dog.

have actual single-player and co-op content. casuals don't care about the massive esports craze push, they don't want to spend 100 hours getting their ass kicked until they can advance a league in starcraft, they want to play big game hunters and custom games.

>>383694892
stop making RTS multiplayer focused
Only a handful of autists care about that shit, that's why RTS died.

>>383694667
>almost killed by the worst fucking Lina
>somehow Lina is worster than we thought and killed himself
>bothered to call people idiot
>died a worsterer dead
>name is MURICA FUCK YEAH

Everything about this fucking webm. I swear shit's staged.

>>383697137
this
CnC was renowned for it's great and rememberable campaigns
Same with CoH, AoE, etc.
Stop catering to E-sports crowd

>>383697217
Multiplayer is the part of the game that can't be pirated, so evidently it's the part that brings the big bux.

>>383697709
>muh piracy
stop making shit games, so players actually want to buy them

RTS are one of the most fun game genres if done right ( even for casuals, casuals love feeling smart and deep playing a strategy game )

1. Fun campaign, original characters and unique character design and unit ( WC3 for example )
2. Make strategy game less grand, each single unit more important ( WC3 for example ) and not just cannon fodder ( sc2 for example, its not fun to suicide your own solders to win ). This makes game less chaotic, a bit more clear and easier to comprehend to everyone, easier to attach yourself to your army and play style.
3. custom game mode support in multiplayer ( WC3 for example ). Playing online multiplayer is too scary for most people, they might do it once a day or once a week, but no more. Casuals do love playing strategy games, but they usually opt for stuff like Random teams 2v2/3v3/4v4 or FFA with 12 people or something. It is less scary then to play and to lose. And while they rest from playing a match online, they have custom games and custom game modes to keep them entertained and interested in the game. Its simply the perfect formula

>>383698242
so.... you just want another assfaggots?

Anyone here plays Sins of a Solar Empire against human players who know what they're doing?

>>383696853
Both are rtearded enough that nobody wins.

>>383698629
imagine a world where there are no First person shooters after counter strike 1.6 was released. So naturally interest in it dies, some loyal players are still playng it and enjoying it, but not that many, as normal players either havent even heard of it, or are not interested in something simply because its old

There simply are no RTS GAMES!!!!!!!!
Only ones which ever get released are those boring/autism type ones where you basebuild all the time and 0 balance or micro

CnC red alert 2, was not bad game, it did lack some balance, but it was still fun game which had options. Yet it was still unplayable, due to it networking being so fucking bad and unappealing. Finish up with campaign, delete the game, no need to ever come back again

Short answer : want to make a successful RTS game?

Literally just make the damn game, there are none atm

E-Sports ruined gaming.

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>>383694667

the guys behind the vanguard mod on SC2 may be on the right track.

they said they want to release it as a stand alone game.

>>383698965
>it did lack some balance
Soviets being unplayable in multiplayer, Allies having hard counters to everything and Yuri's doomsday submarines is not exactly 'some' lack of balance.

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>>383694667
everything about this webm makes me uncontrollably angry

>>383694667
You know its 3 digit bracket because it's fucking 13 minute in and brew is still on brown boots. Also Lina bought a fuckign morbid mask.

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Remember when lol looked like garbage compared to dota? how things change

>>383695546
Pros don't like SC2 though. Some are even going back to SC:BW !

>>383700653
>how things change
even casualised dota has more depth than lol? where did lol surpass it? not in gameplay mechanics, graphics, character design or anything else i can think of

enjoy your shit game and i'll enjoy mine

>>383701475
Look at OP's webm the animations look mobile game tier compared to lol's but ok kid.

>>383694667
make an RTS that isn't a reskin of a game I played back in 1995
that's it.

Smooth basic engine that runs stable on even mid tier systems
Artstyle created with UX in mind. Have units be iconic and differentiated.
Gripping theme. No new IP nobody gives a shit about. Use something historic everybody likes, like ancients or medieval, or scifi classics or an established IP that's actually beloved.
No Macro mechanics. These are just hurdles to jump to get into competitive and most people don't give a fuck about that. Command Points are a good example how to do this. In general, less focus on resources and building and more on fighting.
An absolutely rock solid UI. I can not emphasize this enough. Your Joe average won't work around shitty controls.
Medium size battles (around WC3 levels, with a few not spammable abilities preventing bigger armies in high level play, but leaving in the possibility to build and control them for shitters and fun maps.)
Solid singleplayer campaign that's not a glorified tutorial, but offers one.
Easy to mod with modular engine. Fun maps need to e easy to make. This is the only thing SC2 got right, but their custom lobby is sadly cancer.
No RNGs.

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The single player aspect of games are frequently the biggest part of the budget outside of marketing, but the most lucrative stuff in gaming always comes from multiplayer.

If there's no multiplayer, what's the point? This is why WoW has been going on for over a decade and the actual RTS Warcraft series is MIA.

These days, your best bet is to look at smaller projects, indie devs, with tools that make it simple for smaller teams to put out an RTS game as a genre homage.

People like playing MOBAs more than RTSs. They're faster, and the action is less obtuse. Arena FPS died when Halo came out because it was more palatable for a larger audience. Then Halo died when COD came along because it kept the simplicity with tighter controls and more speed.

Then you see people keep trying to bring back arena FPS with various oddities and gimmicks like what they're doing with Quake Champions, assuming that just because the gaming audience is large enough, suddenly your 90s thing will grow to scale.

Relevance for RTS is in the form of remasters and crowdfunded indie titles.

>>383702685
>No new IP nobody gives a shit about. Use something historic everybody likes, like ancients or medieval, or scifi classics or an established IP that's actually beloved.

you do know beloved, well known ip's actually cost money right? a small, or even medium size dev will have a hard time getting those and you bet your ass there are no current AAA devs that would take such a risk.

I'm still surprised we got halo wars 2, but that has less to do with them wanting to make another RTs and more microsoft just milking halo as hard as humanly possible.

New IPs CAN work it's just that the retarded nostalgia fags will never touch them.

>>383696691
>play sc2 with sponsors literally throwing money at the screen
OR
>stay in bw and try against the toughest koreans with 0% chance of making any profit

>>383699740
vanguard is meh balance-wise, it'll be a meh game

>>383704032
Romans vs Egyptians doesn't cost licensing.

>New IPs CAN work it's just that the retarded nostalgia fags will never touch them.
Name a single good IP that got started within the last 7 years.

>>383695631
I can tell you've only player under 2 hours

>>383704440
Dark Souls
Bayonetta
I'll admit those were the only two that immediately come to mind but I thought of two example almost right away.

>>383704440
so you want RTS, that are already filled with repetition and being stuck in their old ways to repeat other franchises instead of doing something new?

>>383704797
Dark Souls is basically Demons Souls 2, which is from 2009.
Bayonetta is hardly an IP I'd call good, but rather retarded jap-fetish-bait glued to DmCs gameplay.

>>383694667
kill the internet

>>383705039
You don't seem to get what an IP is even though you brought them up.

>>383704998
Modernizing gameplay is definitely needed. Trying to start a new IP generally ends in fucking disaster because creative talent isn't something the current industry structure fosters. I guess if there's some kickstarter project or something it might work, but any studio making a game nowadays should stick to using classics.

>>383705127
How so?

>>383694667

More modes than just Story and Versus. Casual players love PvE modes that they can either solo or co-op with some friends.

It's part of why Starcraft got so big. People were able to play the game without ever going against another player directly.

>>383705298
>Trying to start a new IP generally ends in fucking disaster
Do you seriously believe a ""classic"" IP will help in any way shape or form?

Do you want to constrain a game, specially an RTS that needs so much variety to an IP that has set lore, story and concepts, and as such it will be harder to make units for it?

Fucking look at Halo wars and how badly THAT did, because the fans of halo don't understand the appeal of RTS. Established IP or not new RTS will have a hard time no matter what, if anything, getting an IP and fucking it up is even worse than just a bad game, look at how DoW3 is crucified because it took the name DoW instead of trying to be a spinoff or something.

>>383700628
>This fag doesn't build MoM euls Lina
Do you even right click?

>>383697709
>piracy is lost sales
Fuck off with this meme.

>>383694667
It's easier to list 'don'ts' than 'dos'.
1 - A development model that can match budget with reasonable sales expectations. The more or less dead 'B' game production model, really.
2 - A game whose core design neither trades in nostalgia (Grey Goo, though that is a good game) nor chases trends (Dawn of War III, which utterly lacks an identity of its own)
3 - Don't try to be an e-Sport, nor build your game around the idea. That particular gravy train is already out of the station, your game doesn't have a ticket, forget about it.
4 - Avoid meta-bullshit like in AoE 3 and Dawn of War III - it undermines the core of the game and makes it less interesting.
5 - I want fucking innovation. You're just as smart as your competitor. Do what you want and do it your way, and keep doing it if you can turn a profit, even a modest one.

>>383697217
>single player RTS
Absolutely disgusting

Less SC2 more DoW and Supcom

>>383705598
>Do you want to constrain a game, specially an RTS that needs so much variety to an IP that has set lore, story and concepts, and as such it will be harder to make units for it?
Yes? There's a ton of strong IPs out there. If even 10% have the roster size for a good RTS, that's still enough.

>Fucking look at Halo wars and how badly THAT did, because the fans of halo don't understand the appeal of RTS.
Halo Wars failed because only the stupid half of 12 year olds like halo and they don't play RTS, and RTS fans don't play a game that was dumbed down for consoles.

>Established IP or not new RTS will have a hard time no matter what, if anything, getting an IP
Sure it's not easy, but at least you have better chances succeeding when there's a clear artistic vision already present compared to unfocused messes like Grey Goo or Planetary Annihilation.

>fucking it up is even worse than just a bad game
There I agree

>look at how DoW3 is crucified because it took the name DoW instead of trying to be a spinoff or something.
Dawn of War 3 was crucified because they already had a fucking formula that people liked, and they shat on that just to be different, and unlike DoW2 which did the same thing they didn't even produce an acceptable end product.

>>383705962
>Avoid meta-bullshit
What do you mean by that?

>>383705962
>>383706183
Third anon here, I assume meta bullshit refers to pre-game decisions influencing the game, like the Homebase deck in AoEIII.

Honestly I think that model could work, because it's basically an extended race selection, but it needs the same transparency as picking a race. Selecting a Main-God in AoM for example wasn't too far removed from AoEIIIs system, just implemented much better.

>>383694667
Less real-time for strategy, mostly.

>>383706182

>There's a ton of strong IPs out there
Name me 10 IPs that can turn out a good RTS, with the least amount of "OC units that never appear in canon"

>when there's a clear artistic vision
Just because you have a established ip doesn't mean the work is done for you, again, you seem to not understand how hard it is to make not only an RTS but how to NOT piss off the fans of a established franchise

>Dawn of War 3 was crucified because they already had a fucking formula that people liked
Yes, and if it was named, Sunset of Conflict and was established as something different, noone would have even cared, they would have ignored the game and move on with their lives.

>>383706528
real time strategy is the only real strategy genre there is though.

>>383694667
Offer what they already know they like with better graphics and sound.

Most RTS players just want to play the same shit with a different story and better graphics.

>>383706590
There is grand strategy being done by paradox.

But my point was real-time strategy games are too real-time and not strategic enough. APM should not matter more than strategic decisions.

>>383705854
I do, but MoM isn't what i go for. Euls SB gives a shitload of speed and setup.MoM often fucks me up for the fiery soul stacks

>>383706183
Things like the card/unlock/xp system in AoE 3, the unlockable heroes and upgrades in DoW 3. The existence of the system, as the third anon says, isn't bad in itself. Its lack of transparency can be a problem but there's a design priority that can get in the way. 'All builds have to be viable.' So, if my 25 card deck has to be equally useful, or sufficiently useful, no matter what I put into it, there's only two ways to go about it. Either the cards are so homogeneous that the choices don't matter, or the whole system is so carefully neutered that none of it matters. Players have to be free to fuck up for a system to have both variety and depth. But that crashes into the same problem Diablo II did as the years went by - the system gets solved, sooner or later. The result is a reduction in the possibility space of play, not an expansion.

>>383707291
Can that even be avoided, no matter what a dev does a system will eventually get "cracked" and the optimal choices will always be figured out.

>>383707439
If your game is deep enough, no. SC1 continues to see subtle meta changes a decade later because the game still has not been *mastered*; it still isn't been played to maximum/perfect efficiency. Once a game is mastered mechanically, it will be figured out eventually.

>>383698965
Grey Goo was cool.

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>heavy focus on an engaging single player campaign
>goofy FMV cutscenes
>sluts / waifus
>low skill floor (SP campaign), high skill ceiling (optional for SP, MP)
>favour turtling in SP
>forgiving macro, optional micro in SP
>large variety of scernarios, ais
>easy modding (remember red alert rocket grenadiers?)

essentialy making singleplayer babbys first RTS playground and let the multiplayer scene develop by itself. just like in the old games which where successful.
it is not rocket science. just don't try to emulate SC:BW korean scene and you are good to go.

RTS need to have the potential to be comfy as well as competitive

Ignore Koreans

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>>383694667
While I have nothing against RTS games and do enjoy C&C, Starcraft and WC3 from time to time I've since realized that RTS is an inherently flawed genre.

The number one valued trait in RTS games is not strategy. It's reaction time, AKA the ability to micromanage. In a competetive environment, as skill levels increases strategy becomes less valuable than micro because the entire real-time aspect lends itself to the person who is capable of doing more things in less time. In 99% of cases, a person with a great strategy and mediocre micro will lose to a person with a poor strategy but great micro. Strictly speaking, there isn't anything inherently wrong with this being the case, but many people who enjoy or try to enjoy the genre are generally drawn to it by the strategy aspects and as such are disappointed when that becomes less relevant in upper levels.

Now, the above is assuming a competetive multiplayer environment where each player is on equal footing. This doesn't neccessarily need to be the case, and you could opt to make an RTS that focuses on singleplayer or multiplayer co-op games versus the AI. Strategy suddenly becomes more valuable again because the entire difficulty about such scenarios is about outsmarting the AI (who is often given significant advantages) because it's very difficult to outmicro a computer. But even here we still see micro becoming more valuable as the game becomes difficult because every good strategy can be complemented by being able to execute it swiftly. While micro is less relevant in AI games, it still becomes important to have good micro as AI/scenario difficulty increases, which generally goes against what more casual players want. It's impossible to really fix this "problem" because doing so would require you to remove the very aspect that defines the genre, which is the game being real-time.

To summarize: Turn-based strategy was always the superior genre.

>>383706571
>Name me 10 IPs that can turn out a good RTS, with the least amount of "OC units that never appear in canon"
IPs without prior RTSs:
Mass Effect
Elder Scrolls
Might and Magic
The DnD stuff
EVE
XCOM
Magic the Gathering
Starsiege/Tribes
Worms
Dragon Age
Quake
Dominions

IPs that already have RTSs, but could definitely support more or better ones:
Game of Thrones
Lord of the Rings
Star Wars
Star Trek
Battletech/MechWarrior
Warhammer 40k/Warhammer Fantasy
Homeworld
Halo
God of War (even though this is technically just Mythology)

>Just because you have a established ip doesn't mean the work is done for you, again, you seem to not understand how hard it is to make not only an RTS but how to NOT piss off the fans of a established franchise
If you're not a retard, it's quite easy. In fact, good will because you respect the IP can carry even a mediocre game to lack numbers. Look at Battlefleet Gothic.

>Yes, and if it was named, Sunset of Conflict and was established as something different, noone would have even cared, they would have ignored the game and move on with their lives.
Yeah, and even though people didn't care, it still made money due to the name. Overall having DoW in the title was beneficial for the game, despite the negative publicity. If this didn't have the name, it would have died a silent death.

>>383707439
It's a mathematical thing. Go's full possibility space still hasn't been mapped even with super computers, and some think it might have an infinite number of possible states.

If it cannot be avoided, the best thing to do is to cultivate as many viable solutions as possible without infringing on choice. Those two things are in almost perfect tension with each other, so it's like saying, 'find the golden goose, but don't force it to lay too many eggs.'

>>383694667
Nothing I'm still having fun
casuals and normies can get fucked

>muh singleplayer missions

only people that want this are people in silver/bronze leagues with 25 APM who still click the hotkeys with their mouse

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everything about dota's balance is awful now, the nonstun support effectiveness window and scaling, how most heroes are absolutely gimped compared to the usual easy tier 1 heroes every game and bracket.
I still play it rarely, to see every patch getting worse.
timing heroes used to be more rewarding when played well, easy heroes less, regression to the me(me)an

/get blogged

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until you have been to korea playing broodwar with a korean waifu in your lap and a bottle of soju next to you, please stfu about rts. it's understood that both sc2 and mobas are meant to contain the casual shitters, except now they're trying to casualize broodwar as well with hotkey rebinding. the only thing killing RTS is the casual "LE HARDCORE GAYMERZZZZZ" that aren't autist enough to actually play a hard game

>>383709448
>Dominions
Dominions as in the dominions 4 thrones of awakening dominions? desu i would kill for a RTS with 3d graphics and all of that but it would be next to impossible to do al nations.

>The DnD stuff
There is a game called dragonshard, it was... something, i guess it wasn't a bad game just weird.

>If you're not a retard, it's quite easy.
You really underestimate the autism of some people when it comes to established franchises, specially people like the trek fags, lotr, halo, etc.

Also again, wanna know why there aren't that many RTS based on big names? IPs cost, IPs like the last 10 you mentioned also cost a lot because of how recognizeable are.

RTS are dead cause you all know you are shit at them

People keep talking about how much games pander to casuals nowadays, but that really isn't true for most multiplayer games.
Most multiplayer games pander to the """"""competitive"""""" scene.

>>383710873
ya except shit like quake champions and sc remastered right? xD

>>383710570
>rebind keys is casual
3 q
4 q
5 q
always bind to qwer

>>383710570
your favorite game will have a decent ui and it'll now let you rebind your hotkeys so you don't have to fight your keyboard instead of fighting the enemy
I hope they add drones automining and better pathfinding for dragoons too :)

>>383711001
yep, that's the way it'll be now unless there's enough outcry for them to not add it in

>>383710760
>Dominions as in the dominions 4 thrones of awakening dominions
Yes
>but it would be next to impossible to do al nations.
Yes. You could chose some, though.

>You really underestimate the autism of some people when it comes to established franchises, specially people like the trek fags, lotr, halo, etc.
trek and lotr fans liked the RTS that were made.
Halo fans disliked Halo Wars because it was a bad game

>>383709448
What about cartoon inspired RTS?

>>383711192
Sure.
As I said, there's tons of potential.

i want an anime RTS with broodwar's mechanics but with girls with bouncy boobs and short pleated skirts instead of zerglings and zealots. im convinced that it would be very popular in the east

>>383710963
Naw, even those games are pushing how competitive they will be.

There's a difference between a game with simple or easy-to-grasp mechanics and a game pandering to casuals that don't even remotely care about high-level competition.

>>383711253
I dreamed about Avatar: TLA real-time strategy game.

>>383711336
UE4 is free and there's plenty of premade projects and RTS tutorials.

+5 Epic points deposited...

>>383694667
keep away from anything resembling a hero unit so the wrong crowd doesn't show up

>>383694667
warcraft 3 hd

dawn of war 1 hd

company of heroes hd

stop making shit new original gameplay and just modernize the graphics of old, good games thank you very much

>>383711570
how intuitive is ue4?

>>383711696
CoH2 is better balanced than 1 now buddy.

>>383694667
PCs would have to become popular again.

So, only real option is to make them really good on Mobile so normies can play on their smartphone.

>>383711525
I dreamed about my nuts getting stuck between the cushions of my couch, but your idea is good as well.

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>>383711926
>PCs would have to become popular again.
I think you've been participating in too many consolewar threads.

>>383711792
mucho, there's visual scripting blocks that show you most of the codebase as well as being easily transfered, compiled, and run simultaneously with C-+ files.

>>383696610
it actually fits the theme though
It shows that todays playerbase has a lot of retards that can't even grasp the pros and cons of a single unit they control, therefore even more complex control of a dozen or more units won't ever find a big audience again.

tl;dr even the retarded cousin of rts, moba, is too hard for wide parts of todays audience

>>383694667
Make them?