Does Sonic need more than these characters?

Nope.

>>383644313
I liked Shadow in Adventure 2. If he stayed dead I think people wouldn't hate him so much. It would have been better if they waited awhile until bringing him back. His game portrays him out of character but that's what he'll always be associated with sadly. Hopefully he's handled decently in Forces. The best thing for Sega to do right now is just have Taxman and his team make classic 2D games while Sonic Team makes 3D modern games with the same amount of care as Modern's stages in Generations.

>>383644313
>need
Definitely not.. I don't see the problem with more characters though so long as well implemented into whatever game they're in though.

>>383644690
>His game portrays him out of character
Getting the perfect ending kind of really fixes his character, but nobody acknowledges that.

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Absolutely

>>383644313
No

>>383647464
Still the diversity of endings meant that Shadow lacked a solid and definite personality, unlike his portrayal in SA2, who was just more or less a lonely guy who was delusional into believing he wanted revenge but really wanted redemption. Not to mention, only one of those many endings are actually canon.

>>383644313
Remove Tails and everything is good.

>>383644313
I think Sonic Advance pulled off the "multiple characters" thing really well.
fuck the Amy redesign though.

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>>383647616
Glad someone else can appreciate best sonic girl.

>>383647964
What's wrong with Tails?

>>383644313
You really only NEED Sonic and Eggman desu, but variety's good too.
Sonic's friends aren't an issue when they're actually playable and change up the gameplay without deviating too far from the core mechanics. Looking at you Big.

>>383644313
depends if silver sonic, mecha sonic, and egg robo count as characters

if not then thats probably enough maybe add more when they can think of other playstyles that compliment sonics physics.

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>>383647464
Yeah, but all the marketing, the intro, and the forced cursing cemented his character in most peoples mind as being a extremely angry, murdering pyscho.

>>383644313
Yes he does you piece of shit, yes he does. Out of touch neckbearded virgin balding 40 year olds need to stop criticizing my Sonikku

>>383644313
>Classic Era
That isn't really a representation of it. Characters were added willy nilly even back then. The Chaotix, Bean, Bark, Fang, Mighty and Ray. They disappeared but they also popped back up too just the same as some modern ones.

Before someone points out these are the ones who reccuringly appeared consistently after their introduction, that eliminates Amy (CD, then Fighters) and Metal(CD, Fighters, Chaotix) who aren't in Sonic 3 or Sonic and Knuckles (unless you count Mecha Sonic, which you shouldn't, because now Metal Sonic should then be considered Silver Sonic, which he isn't).

If you include those who make one main console platformer appearance and then multiple misc appearances then Espio (Chaotix, Fighters), should be there as well, and really if you get really meticulous about whether it's a platformer and who did what, there goes Amy because she wasn't even vital to anything until Adventure.

So to answer your question, OP, no.
Sonic doesn't really need anything outside of better direction with whatever it does or does not include. There is no real necessary or essential cast. You can even make games sans appearing or playable Sonic as Tails, Knuckles and Shadow demonstrate.

And just look at Sonic Boom: Rise of Lyric as an example where we have this imagined " classic core cast" as the main ones there and they're poorly utilized in the "game" and the "story". There is no reductionist fix to directing these games.

Saying all that, there'd better be fucking Chao returning at some point.

>>383644313
There's nothing inherently wrong with Sonic's extended cast, just the way they're used.

>>383644313
>Does Sonic need more than these characters?

>no bat tats
>no eggman

???

Technically it doesn't "need" any more than Sonic and Eggman. Having more characters was never the issue, having garbage characters was.

>>383650470
This!

>>383650674
>Eggman is right there
>Implying Rouge is relevant

Drop Metal Sonic.

>Sonic: The hero, the title character, the one who does everything, the world's fastest supersonic hedgehog.
>Eggman: The genius archnemesis.
>Tails: The best friend, gadgeteer genius, flying thing. Grants Sonic some semblance of social contact.
>Knuckles: Previously a rival, now a friend, probably because the idea of him defeating Sonic is laughable at best. Further expands Sonic's social circle.
>Amy: A stalker. Provided absolutely nothing of value until Sonic Advance where she actually had some interesting gameplay mechanics. Since then, she's returned to being pointless since all she ever really does is stalk Sonic.
>Metal Sonic: Created to be a worthy adversary to Sonic. Is anything but. With each new appearance, it becomes more and more pathetic, desperate to defeat Sonic in any way it can and failing miserably every time. Its entire character (when it's allowed to have one) is its sheer desperation in achieving its futile, fruitless goal. If it could actually talk for more than one game, it might have a halfway decent character. As it is, it's honestly just another tool.
>Big: Provides absolutely nothing of value, has basically faded away into obscurity.
>Shadow: An actual worthy adversary to Sonic, fulfilling the role that Metal Sonic couldn't.
>Rouge: Was something of a foil to Knuckles, though that aspect of her character has since largely faded away. Now she exists to be the closest thing Shadow has to a best friend.
>Blaze: A surprisingly ideal foil to Sonic, creating a rather interesting balance between the two.
>Team Chaotix: Comic relief.
>E-123 Omega: Is essentially the successor to the E-100 series robots.
>Silver: Worthless.

Metal Sonic is actually kinda interesting. In comics, OVA and TV shows, it's consistently shown as a major threat at best and worthy adversary at worst whenever it appears. In the games, however, it just comes off as sad, depressing and ineffective at any of its attempts. Sonic himself barely seems to remember it exists.

>>383651335
Thats Robotnik you faggot

>>383651335
Where's the Eggman anon?

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>>383644313
Not at all. Mind you I do like Sonic's friends, but these six characters alone could carry the entire series themselves. Also can we get rid of Iizuka as a director? That'd be great.

Would like to see another Mania with either

>Knuckles Chaotix gimmick with better levels
Or
>Shadow, who has ice skating physics but in exchange can teleport

>>383644313
You need tits the bat at least.

Sex sells.

>>383644313
Shadow are Rogue are fine if done like SA2 characterization. Would like to see them in a Mania game with different characters out the ass

>>383647616
>>383648038
This. From the modern characters I only like Blaze.

>>383644313
You don't """need""" anybody you fucking classicfag retard.

Not even Sonic, you could make a perfectly good game about Knuckles by himself.

But it IS desirable to have more characters than your status quo of twenty fucking years ago, you nostalgic moron.

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>>383651523
>>383651548

>>383651914
Shadow, ez pz
The rubber band thing is inherently dumb.

Reminder that knuckles chaotix is good and fucking kino

>>383644313
Mecha sonic
Vector
Gamma
Big the cat

>>383651914
>Knuckles Chaotix sequel
I'd rather just have Espio and Vector be playable in a potential Mania 2. The ring system in itself is flawed and annoying.

>>383652537
>Mecha Sonic

Why do people like this one again? It doesn't even fulfill the one qualification of being a robot duplicate of Sonic: going fast.

>>383644313

Yes, if you don't plan on making the same game over and over again for 20 years.

>>383652864
He's cool looking

>>383652285
>Adventurefag furry mad that OP is right
It's called character bloat, faggot.

I think Shadow can be cool as long as he's either being used as a deliberate contrast to Sonic, or if he's competing against Sonic or something. He's an ideal archrival, but he's never utilized for that purpose anymore. And unlike Metal Sonic, he never really comes off as weak and ineffective, and exudes just as much confidence as Sonic does.

>>383652508
Agreed. Best special stages in the series.

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>>383644313
>main cast
>OG Chaotix
>Team Hooligans
that's all there should be. rest is post-adventure era trash
pic related

>>383653520
It doesn't matter what meme name you call it, that doesn't make it correct.

Individual games may have too many characters. Most probably won't since that is a pretty autistic concept that relies on the idea that each character must have a specific role and attention quota rather than just showing up and servicing the story//protagonist and then getting lost like in any other kind of media.

A series cannot have character bloat. Characters appear, then they disapear, it doesn't matter. Clinging ridiculously to a small set of specific characters because of status quo instead of using characters as they're needed is fucking retarded and always leads to character rot.

>>383655105
lmao we sure do NEED Big and Gamma! I liked Gamma's story, but it has almost nothing to do with the plot.

>>383644313
Sonic can have as many characters as sega wants.
Just don't shove in 400 half baked gameplay styles.

You could easily make an argument that it literally doesn't need anything more than Sonic himself, and arguably Tails/Eggman.

But if you're gonna pair it down to bare fucking basics then yeah that's not a bad list. Get rid of Metal Sonic though. He's cool but I mean, Eggman's always building shit. He's had robot sonics before and afterwards, if he wasn't so popular in the fanbase he'd have just been another one in the line.

>>383644313

The cast in the OP is more than enough for main appearances. I'd include Shadow and Blaze as well. Beyond that, everyone else isn't mandatory or can straight up be removed from existence.

>>383644313
>femhog
it was all down hill from threre. glad she wasn't included in Mania.

>>383644358
fpbp
this OC cancer needs to go and stay go.

>>383655846
I bet she'll cameo somewhere

>>383644313
Yes. Of course.
Flicky, Picky, Ricky, Rocy, Cucky, etc
More new animals for each games
New badniks
New robotic bosses
Some side-characters for very small roles, like Amy, are fine. Like the Sonic Band just for the sound test, or Madonna for something.
But for MAIN characters, you only need Sonic the Hedgehog and Dr. Eggman. Miles and Knuckles are just a welcomed bonus.

>>383647964
*unsheathes katana*
I'll remove YOU from existence first, anon. Heh.

>>383644313
There are no characters that the franchise needs. Not even Sonic and Eggman. There have been games centering around characters other than Sonic, and there have been games where characters other than Eggman have been the main villain. The franchise "needs" any character that works with whatever game they want to make at any given time. The franchise has enough variety in characters that they should not think of only making one Sonic game every two or three years or whatever, but expanding the game's world into multiple sub-series like Nintendo did with Mario/Donkey Kong/Yoshi/Wario/etc.

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>>383655846
>it was all down hill from there
*blocks your path*

>>383644313
They just need to give the ones they already have bigger titties.

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>sonic team will never make more sonic advance sequels
the advance trilogy was the only time any of sonic's friends were interesting or useful.

>>383656103
Curiously, this was a thing occurring in the '90s, to an extent.

Sonic had his games.
Tails had two titles on Game Gear (only one of them is actually good)
Knuckles got a title on the 32X.
Robotnik got a re-skinned Puyo Puyo, because SoA wasn't sure it'd localize well over here.

>>383655760
I'd include Cabletrunks the Hedgehog as an occasional appearance, he'd be one of the better Sonic characters if he wasn't inexorably linked to what is objectively the worst mainline Sonic game bar none, if only because it's pretty much impossible to fuck up Future Trunks as a character.

>>383656146
>the edgehog
can't think a a better example of everything wrong with modern sonic plots

>>383656421
>can't think a a better example of everything wrong with modern sonic plots
Are you stuck 10 years in the past, anon? Sonic hasn't been edgy garbage in forever.

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>>383644313
I'd argue Nack, but that's really about it.

Everyone introduced after 1994 never needs to return.

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>>383656270
>tfw we could have got a 3D Knuckles game but got Shadow the Hedgehog instead
Still hurts, thanks a lot fanbase.

>>383656421
Shadow was perfectly fine in SA2, he wasn't even all that edgy, just an antagonistic science experiment seeking revenge. The problem was they brought him back and flanderized him into the stupid edgy bullshit he's known for today.

>>383647616
She was okay.

>>383656767
>We will never get a Robotnik the Scientist game

>>383650050
Metal Sonic at the end of Sonic Heroes looked a hell of a lot like Mecha Sonic and it pissed me off that they didn't just merge them together at that point canonically.

>>383656774
This. As much as I don't care for Shadow I think he was handled pretty well in SA2. The problem was that they didn't keep him dead like they were originally going to.

>>383650050
Everything you said is pretty much irrelevant.

The only characters added "willy nilly" to the series before Sonic & Knuckles were Mighty the Armadillo or Ray the Flying Squirrel in the arcade game.

Everyone else (save for Fang) was introduced to the series in 95 or afterwards, which is after the classic series (1, 2, 3, K, and sometimes CD) was released.

So it's much less that they've been adding characters since the beginning, and much more that 1995 was the beginning of TOO MANY FUCKING CHARACTERS.

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>>383656935
Now I'm really upset, thanks.

>>383656935
>a real time strategy where you need to prevent the freedom fighters from destroying your base

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>>383656695
>Everyone introduced after 1994 never needs to return.
>Big needs to return
>Cream and Cheese need to return
>Silver needs to return
>Jet, Wave and Storm need to return
>Chip needs to return
>that human girl from sonic 06 needs to return
>Amy needs to return

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I really like metal sonic

>>383657174
>freedom fighters
Who?

>>383657246
Amy is 93 bro

>>383657246
How did you quote it right, but read it wrong?

>Need
not unless it's a spinoff
Also Metal Sonic, though rad, is not essential. As lost world showed, Knux and Amy are also expendable

Don't mind others for spinoffs and the like. Advance games make a good argument for Cream being main cast material

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>>383657249
I like him too but he's basically spent now since Sonic Heroes

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>>383657246
Characters from 1994 and before, in order of conception:

Sonic
Eggman
Metal Sonic
Amy
Tails
Ray
Mighty
Knuckles
Fang

Every other character is after, and they're mostly shit.

Bean and Bark are cool though.

>>383657552
I think they could go back to him being self-aware. Change the costume though, the crotch guard and butt cape look pretty dumb.
Kind of a shame we never saw him doing anything in that form.

>>383657649
He is self-aware. He's motivated primarily by his desperation and inferiority complex. He created a long and convoluted plan just to challenge Sonic to a board race, just so that he could say that he beat Sonic in SOMETHING.

>>383657079
>and much more that 1995 was the beginning of TOO MANY FUCKING CHARACTERS.
In your opinion

This idea you can narrow down some cast cut off point, that also just happens to meet your preference, is nonsense.
The absence or presence of any particular character or number of characters, "1994"ers or otherwise, has never been vital.

Games like Rush, Unleashed, Colors and Generations function just fine with the secondary characters being just that or barely appearing at all emphasis, function. Nitpicks about the games or gameplay essentially have nothing really to do with the cast address nothing..

>>383657254
the canon group of furry faggots who devoted their lives to fighting eggman

Need to learn how to use all of them well first

>>383657246
>that human girl from sonic 06 needs to return
Well none of that happened, so there's no reason for a return.

>>383657826
True, but I mean the whole "taking matters into his own hands" thing. He seems mostly obedient besides that last Riders game.
I would like to see him go over the edge again. It feels kinda bad that he doesn't get anything interesting considering most of Sonic's other rivals do.

>>383656767
>>383656935
No point.

>>383645558
I think their biggest issue is trying to put too many characters into a single game. They haven't done it for a while, but it seems they will be with Forces.

Personally, I'd say limit each game to no more that three playable characters and any additional characters should be only there if required by the story. That is, stop shoe-horning in Chaotix.
I'd also be happy if Knuckles didn't show up unless he was playable or story-centric. They've dropped his Guardian of the Master Emerald shtick something fierce since Adventure.

>>383657826
There was a lot of wasted opportunity of Shadow and Metal Sonic to have meaningful interaction of what it means to be a rival and live in Sonic's shadow (oops) all the time

>>383644313
Yes

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>>383644313

>>383657828
>This idea you can narrow down some cast cut off point, that also just happens to meet your preference, is nonsense.

It's easy. Every character released after the last classic game is shit.

>>383657828
The only thing the secondary characters did in Generations was constantly chime in during the final boss fight and get a quip in when you beat their level. Would've been a holistically better experience without them.
Not that I'm arguing against Sonic's friends, but they need a reason for actually being there.
>>383658104
Did Shadow have a point?

>>383658274
>knuckles
>tails
>metal sonic
>good

>bee
>armadillo
>teakettle
>good

>>383658103
That's because, when you get right down to it, he's just a robot. He doesn't even have a sophisticated A.I. like Orbot and Cubot do. All he can do is try to fulfill his original objective in any way he can.

>>383658223
Shadow's not trapped in Sonic's shadow. He's got far too much confidence in himself for that, and he's the second-most popular character in the franchise.

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>>383658274
Mostly agree but you forgot Egg Robo

>>383644313
Sonic's cast should go like this

Friends
>Tails
>Amy
>Cream

Rivals
>Shadow
>Knuckles
>Blaze

Allies
>Rouge
>Silver
>Team Chaotix

Enemies
>Eggman
>Metal Sonic

That's it. This is what the main cast should always be aside from new characters from new games or spinoffs that stay exclusive to those games, like the Babylon Rogues.

And the best thing about this cast is that every single character has been playable at some point in time so they each have their own distinct gameplay styles. So if SEGA ever wanted to make any of them playable again, they already know how to do it, except Sonic who they can't even decide if he should Spin Dash or Boost.

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>>383658123
It's weird that Adventure portrayed him as guarding the Master Emerald 24/7 when in 3&K he just hid it in Hidden Palace Zone. Him being a treasure hunter was a big part of his character back then too, which wouldn't really make sense if he just sat at the altar all day.

>>383658424
>>bee
>>armadillo
>>teakettle
>>good
The image labels them as okay for spin-offs, not flat out good.

>>383658448
Yeah but him doing more would be neat.
Doesn't have to be all the time, it would just be nice to see him have some menace again. He went from one of the most intimidating rivals to kind of a jobber. Poor bastard was the first rival boss in generations, and thus the easiest.

>>383658223
Shadow isn't really Sonic's rival though. I also don't think he cares about being in "Sonic's shadow." He's not a hero and doesn't care about fame or being liked.

They just look similar, have similar powers and have once been on opposing sides.

Metal on the other hand is fucking obsessed with Sonic and defeating him.

>>383644313
No but I don't see a problem with more if they're cool.

>>383658523
Yeah, I kind of miss Knuckles' goofier personality.
Besides, it's not like he wouldn't notice it getting broken, the island would still fall. Hell it would give him even more reason to be rivals with Rogue because they are both after treasure.

>>383644313
>it gutta bee jus sanic and ehgman and itl be juzt like when i was playin it on muh childhood for the firs game urinates on self
literally anyone who expresses this talking point needs to be sent to a literal death camp

Need? No. But I don't really mind some of the other guys introduced in the classic era (Chaotix, Fang the Sniper, Bean the Dynamite, etc)

>>383658523
I think in 3&K he was actively going after Sonic to protect the emeralds. First thing he does when Sonic shows up is immediately take the emeralds from him, effortlessly.

>>383658704
I just want them to stop making characters that do nothing and then stop existing.
Shadow and Rogue were fine, the characters in Adventure 1 were alright I guess, Omega was cool, but past that they have been really bad.
>Black Doom
>Silver
>Actually everyone in 06 really
>Chip
Really the only good recent additions were Orbot and Cubot, they work as henchmen really well. Hope they stay.

>>383658561
But he was never that intimidating and he always jobbed. Metal Sonic was never meant to be Sonic's equal; he's supposed to be a second-rate duplicate. It's just that everyone else never got the memo, so they expect him to be some kinda badass machine of death who can give Sonic a run for his money. He's not. He is, was, and always will be Sonic's inferior. That's the entire point to his character.

>>383658776
From what I can tell, this is a misconception. The Chaos Emeralds were never Knuckles' responsibility, and aren't even limited to Angel Island. While the Chaos Emeralds are connected to the Master Emerald, the Chaos Emeralds have never been referred to as Knuckles' possessions or under his protection, ever.

>>383644313
Yes, but not as main.

>>383658704
Literally everyone added post adventure 1 was garbage.

>>383644313
Need? No. But the other characters don't really hurt. It's the shitty gimmicks, poor design, and lack of polish that hurt his games, not his friends.

>>383659119
This. Big's mechanics of fucking fishing were awful, but everybody was upset to see the Token Retard go.

>>383644313
I think that the male characters need some clothes.

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>>383656103
>you don't live in the universe where Blaze got her own game

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>>383659026
His race was hard for me as a kid
Then again I was also really bad. I might just be too attached to him being important because he looks really cool. Sonic CD being one of my earliest games is probably why I like robots so much even now.

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>>383659114
Nah.
>inb4 furfag

>>383644313
Maybe a new evil every now and again, but no new friends.

Cool one-off robots like Gamma and Omega are neat though.

>>383659026
>It's just that everyone else never got the memo
You can probably thank the Sonic OVA for that.
Honestly though that shit was hype as fuck when I was a kid. Still pretty entertaining for cheese factor desu.

>>383648610
Had the game been about Shadow fucking losing his mind and just brutally murdering every Sonic character before time beinf reset and him getting locked up, I'd have ironically enjoyed it.

>>383659184
They all have shoes and gloves on.

>>383658274
>Pink Sonic
>Good
How does this meme persist outside fap hungry idiots? Name one game outside Advance.
She's as important and good as the throwaway animals you saved in all the other games.

I liked the change up her gameplay in Adventure provided, but like Gamma I didn't think at any point that it was what Sonic needed. Tails recycling gameplay in SA and SA2 did nothing to make me feel him needing a role beyond flying the Tornado. No comment on Big, should have been a mini-game is all I'll say. At its core the initial Sonic and Knuckles concepts were really the only two styles in that that legitimately seemed to have a solid direction, both however went on to have very questionable execution as it went on but at the very least I could see its purpose and how both incorporated uses of the shared level design well in SA and in SA2, well that's another matter entirely.
>Metal
I love the guy myself, but he's never been good for nothing. Silver and Mecha Sonic provided more polished and purposeful boss battles. I'm counting his Heroes stuff here too, the stationary and flying dragon crap was less interesting than Chaos and Biolizard who had much less to work.

Getting right down to it Sonic, Eggman and Knuckles only when they have some fucking idea what they're doing are factually good.

And if you were talking about personality or something like that you can just leave that chart blank.

>>383659283
Ah, forgot about her since she was introduced in mobiele games. Her, Cream and that raccoon or whatever are fine. Everything else is shit though.

>>383659402
They are wild beasts. Free to feell the wind hitting their butts.

Why is Blaze so popular?
She's never been that important, nor does she have much personality.
Unless she does in the comic, I read that as a youngin but I jumped off almost a decade ago now I suppose. I heard there was a metal sonic pirate or something and that sounds neat.

>>383659283
mah nigga

>>383644313
There is nothing wrong with expanding the roster indefinitely as time goes on, so long as they're expansions on the core game, rather than completely different games stapled onto the side.

Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Amy, Mighty, Vector, Espio, and Charmy have already seen the roster expanded in different ways, within the classic gameplay style, among the Silver Age roster. I'd be interested in seeing Ray get some love in that department.

Characters like Eggman, Metal Sonic, Fang, Bean, Bark, Eggrobo, Metal Knuckles, and the Tails Doll are all serviceable as recurring enemies in the form of boss battles.

>>383659429
Read the Mega Drive comic, shows exactly how Amy fits perfectly with the rest of the Classic cast.

As much hate as there is for Big's gameplay in SA, which is completely valid, it was cool as shit to have a fishing boss fight.

>>383659476
Kitty titties

Srsly tho, it's because she actually plays similarly to Sonic in all the games she's been in.

>>383655912
Don't try and use Madonna and Miles to look intelligent about the games you autistic fuck.

>>383657174
Holy shit and units consist of every fucking badnik ever.
>occasionally a secondary villain will attack you, Chaos, Mephiles, Gaia, Zeti, what the fuck ever else, but just for variety
>Metal Sonic is OP as fuck but can be used once a game and for one round only

>>383660052
PERFECT

>>383660052
Get out of there Mighty, no one invited you.

>>383660005
>Metal Sonic
>OP as fuck

What universe is this?

>>383644690
Shit was cool giving shadow a hero's death but then sonic heroes retconned it by giving eggman a wharehouse full of shadow clones

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>>383660281
>shadow clones

>>383660264
One where Robotnik is winning?

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>>383644313
Blaze isn't in that pic so yes.

>>383659593
>Name one GAME outside Advance and even there it's just gimmicks
>"Read Flynn and Hesse's middling nostalgia milking secondary material"
I rest my case

>>383658395
>Did Shadow have a point?
No and it was a boring game.

>>383656774
I'd argue Sonic 06 restored him back somewhat, though he felt more like a Solid Snake pastiche.

He has the best story of the three at least.

>>383659754
Sorry I triggered your autism and I'm sorry you weren't able to properly convey what triggered it in your nonsense post.

>>383661793
Okay maybe you don't know the backstory but Sega held a vote for who the next Sonic game should be about and Shadow, being the new cool edgy guy in town won the vote.
Are you really gonna tell me a Knuckles game in the era of hammy Knuckles raps would've been worse? Or even a Tails or Robotnik game?

>>383662105
I do know.
A Knuckles, Tails, or Eggman game wouldn't be better. They don't even know how to make good Sonic games, no way they can make good spin-offs.

>>383662235
If you say so man.
At least we got edge memes I guess.

>>383661793
>boring game.
Poorly put together, yes. Not really boring in of itself.
The ideas were interesting enough. If you repainted it a Sonic game, somehow, it would be mostly tolerated like Sonic Heroes. It was its excess and schizophrenic self-awareness that made it stick out.

>>383658104
Who cares if it has no point? The Sonic franchise is a fucking meme. Might as well go all out wild.

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>"a-anyone remember me?"

>THE ONLY CHARACTERS THAT MATTER TIER

Sonic
Eggman

>RECURRING MEME TIER

Tails
Knuckles

>HONORABLE MENTIONS TIER

Shadow
Cassia
Thunderbolt
Metal Sonic
Mecha Sonic
Snively
Naugus

>LITERAL 0/10 GARBAGE THAT YOU ONLY LIKED BECAUSE YOU WERE 4 TIER

Amy
Rogue
Vector
Espio

>INSTANTLY TURNS EVERYTHING TO SHIT TIER

Every freedom fighter
Charmy
Big
Your OC

>>383658482
I like the idea of Blaze being a friendly rival to Sonic. Like once in a while she visits his dimension and they race each other.

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>>383663317
REMEMBUH ME?

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>>383663751
What tier does Blaze fall under?

>>383644313
No

>>383658274
This, I would love a classic and modern Sonic game with just Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, and Amy playable while Eggman and Metal Sonic are the main antagonist. I like how Mario just has Mario, Luigi, Peach, Yoshi, Toad, and Bowser, along with the Koopalings and Bowser Jr. Sonic needs to do the same.

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>>383664271
No idea, not sure about Silver either. Where you rank someone who goes from worst Trunks impersonator to best boi in one issue?

>>383658274
What the fuck do Heavy and Bomb even do besides instakill everything that touches them?

>>383664019
Blaze doesn't really seem to care much for competition. She just likes Sonic because he (and Cream) taught her the value of friendship. He's the only one she can trust her back to.

It should just be Sonic, Eggman, Tails, Amy, Metal Sonic, Knuckles, Espio, Charmy, Vector, Fang, Cream, Blaze, Rouge, and Shadow

Everyone else can fuck right off

>>383664441
Wow it's unusual to see Sonic snap at someone. At the same time though it feels refreshing and adds depth to him.

>>383644313
The only solid way to make a big roster is to give each character different air jump abilities and the odd unique trait:

>Sonic
Insta Shield and Drop Dash
Super Peel Out
Elemental Shield Jump Abilities

>Tails
Flying
Carrying

>Knuckles
Gliding and Climbing
Breaks Walls
Shortest Jump

>Mighty
Wall Jump

>Espio
Climbing
Fastest Climbing

>Vector
8 Directional Air Dash and Climbing

>Charmy
Flying and 8 Directional Air Dash
Infinite Flying

>Amy
Double Jump
Can't Roll

Outside of Amy and maybe Charmy I'd be opposed to giving characters basic melee attacks, since that's basically what rolling is supposed to be. More than that and it would bog the pace down unnecessarily.

And then if we wanted to expand to the modern roster, it's still pretty straightforward and not inherently damaging to the core gameplay:

>Cream
Flying
Cheese

>Blaze
Hover
Boosting

>Big
Bounce
Carries more momentum, being larger

>Shadow
Homing Attack

>>383664909
>Tails
I'd replace Carrying with Swimming or just add it on.

>>383664909
Hell no. Tails already broke the game to pieces, Knuckles even more so.

>>383665034
Feels redundant to add, since it's just Flying underwater.

>>383664909
Sonic has the Homing Attack and Boost, though. He doesn't need those other things.

:)

>>383665093
He has historically had access to them in the past. He doesn't really need them going forward to set himself apart, though.

Blaze and Shadow, on the other hand, need to be more distinct in different ways. Modern techniques for modern characters.

>>383665092
Oddly enough he can't carry Sonic while swimming, which should be a lot easier than carrying him while flying. He weighs a 10th of his original weight.

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>tfw I liked the Archie/SatAM cast

>>383644313
Shadow and Blaze are fine.

>>383665159
Sonic is faster. Blaze jumps higher. Shadow is Grand Theft Auto.

F A N G

>>383665295
They don't even look like Sonic characters. Honey does but I think it's from virtua fighter?

>>383644313
You know what, fuck you guys. Theyre great but theyre great BECAUSE OF HOW THEY WERE USED. Very subtle, minimal, cool looking (they actually look like the same art style of sonic) and barely in the games with no dialogue. Theres no reason more characters cant be introduced but merely used how they were. The problem is Sonic started taking itself super fucking serious as a melodrama and the characters became laughable.

>>383665363
All Shadow needs is the Fire Shield's Jump Dash as a native ability and Sonic 4's Homing Attack. No need for GTA shit.

I think what they should do is try to start using the other cast members again by experimenting with certain types of games. Make games with Sonic in them, but also starring another character alongside him. Focus the game on just those two characters.

So, for instance,
>A Sonic/Tails game with a higher emphasis on vertical movement. Sonic is faster, jumps higher and can wall jump. Tails can fly, swim, and can use various gadgets.
>A Sonic/Knuckles game with an emphasis on exploration and finding treasure. Once again, Sonic is faster, can jump higher and has limited vertical movement via wall jump. Knuckles can glide and climb and has greater aerial control than Sonic's Homing Attack.

As long as Sonic's in the game, it's guaranteed to sell, and they can use the data they collect and see what kinds of gameplay styles work and what doesn't.

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>you are Taxman
>you're making Sonic Mania 2
>Sega is forcing you to add the pic related to the game as playable characters

How do you implement them?

>>383666045
make eggman the hard mode character, goes incredibly fast and can either die in 1 hit and hold no rings or hold only 1

let ray hover like peach

let metal sonic have that cool charge attack, be slightly inferior to sonic in all regards (moving, jumping, etc)

no idea for the rest of them

>>383644358
fpbp

>>383666045
The Eggrobos are already in the game.

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>>383644313
It doesn't NEED them but I enjoy seeing new ones as long as they're done well. Shadow was alright in SA2 before they went full edge with him, Blaze was cool, and Chaotix are GOAT and technically classic characters since they appeared on the 32X

>>383666045
ALL of them?
Alright I guess
>Robotnik
I suppose the only way this would work would be a different game entirely
Mean bean machine
>Squirrel
I used to know who this is, and I forgot
>Metal Sonic
Obviously plays a lot like Sonic, but perhaps give him more of a focus on higher risk and higher speed. Make him unable to spindash while running, making him more vulnerable to normal enemies, but make his speeds faster. Also give him a jet boost similar to the peel out.
>Egg Robo
Contra
>Knack
Best would be a bouncier, more horizontal based stage design where he bounces on his tail to gain height off enemies, and uses his gun to knock out small fry
>Bark
No clue really, doesn't do much
>Bean
Puzzle solving with block breaking
>Tails doll
Le epic scary meme
>Metal Knuckles
Slower, more aggressive knuckles. Make him able to punch in front of him in a wide arc, but also make him gain speed slower and glide with more of a drop. In return, give him something really nice like spike immunity.

>>383644313
Knuckles was the original hardcore Vegeta-nigga. He was cucked into being Yamcha when the king of Edginess, Shadow, was introduced.

That's never sat right with me. I'm not saying I hate Shadow. I'm just saying he's a huge faggot and the only reason people like him is cause he's the dark edgy Sonic.

>>383666587
Knuckles was Piccolo.
Shadow was Vegeta.

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>>383664909
Espio actually just runs on walls (and ceilings). His head also becomes a hitbox when he's running at full speed.
>>383663751
>Honorable mentions
>Archieshit
>Espio, Vector, and Amy in 0/10 tier
This is some quality bait.

>>383666715
Amy Rose is as if AIDS grew legs and chased you around.

>>383666587
I always considered Knuckles to be the Piccolo of the series.
Yeah like this guy >>383666703 said.
They're both basically the cool ass nigga.

>>383665748
Shadow has so many powers though, feels a shame to not give him the ability to toss chaos spears. Or maybe if he picks up the invincibility powerup he gets the added bonus of having all enemies freeze in place.

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>>383666859
Amy's just a cute fangirl. I recall someone mentioning she works well because she shows that Sonic's popular even in-universe, something that's not really established otherwise. Besides, she has her usefulness with her hammer.

>>383664909
I thought about most of these earlier in the thread when constructing an argument for why character necessity isn't in the vocabulary for Sonic games and recognized not even this level of trying to customize the characters makes the roster's size justified.

See with wisps, shields and item boxes Sonic can gain almost any power someone else can.

The only time a character becomes truly unique, not necessarily necessary but just no longer Sonic+, is when trying to apply their gameplay onto Sonic impedes his. The only reasonable decent case for this, as things like the Mech shooting aren't really a great example of a concept done well, would be emerald or item hunting and the Werehog stuff as it would or has been shown to require slowing Sonic down and altering how he traverses the level. Ergo outside of Knuckles and Rouge you'll have a hard time providing a convincing case why anyone else but Sonic as the player character plus item perks and Eggman as the antagonist are needed for anything more. Outside of course of preference or colorful choice.

So in conclusion people shouldn't get too eager grinding their axe to chop off what they see as extra fat, because if we get down to it you'll find yourself stopping when you get to a glistening piece that looks appealing to you personally and not because it really needs to be there. Sonic games could be completely barebones of superfluous elements spoiler]hell there was a time they didn't even need voice actors[/spoiler] without any issues, so while I understand people's reservations for the return of some characters who rubbed players the wrong way earlier or the inclusion of more characters on top of the rainbow puke pile I don't think anyone should think too simply that their favorites are exempt of the same process of elimination if Sonic Team really wanted it.

>>383666045

Plot overview: a virus has corrupted Robotnik's badniks, turning them sentient. Only Metal Sonic and Egg-Robo have independence. The badniks plan to steal the chaos emeralds to create the Godnik, an invulnerable badnik possessed and powered by proto-Chaos.

>Robotnik
Half speed of Sonic, functions similar to Mario, with butt-slam attack.
>Ray the Flying Squirrel
Same base function as Sonic with added tail-whip and can use as a spring.
>Metal Sonic
Same base function as Sonic, reaching max speed allows you to create an optional temporary invincibility shield.
>Egg Robo
Same speed as Eggman, can fire laser just above height of Sonic, also has double jump and down-smash kick.
>Nack the Weasel
2/3rd speed of Sonic, 1.5x the jump height. Uses popgun to attack a spread area in front of him at any time. Jumping turns this attack into a circular burst.
>Bark the Polar Bear
Same speed as Robotnik. 2/3rd jump height of Sonic. Can pick up and grab badniks and throw them at enemies as in Super Mario 2 US.
>Bean the Dynamite
Can throw bombs in any direction moving or looking. Same base movement as Knuckles, but instead has a short dash-glide, which additionally drops 3 bombs below him.
>Tails Doll
Same base movement as Tails, but with permanent invincibility to damage via touch, and twice as long flight. Can only be killed by pits, bullets and squashing.
>Metal Knuckles
Same base stats as Knuckles, but can fire his fists ahead of him like Rayman. Has the ability to glide upwards for a short distance.

>>383666045
>Eggman
A level building mode. You don't actually play as Eggman in-game, but it's themed as if you are Eggman designing the levels.
>Metal Sonic
For test mode of the level builder. Plays the same as Sonic.
>Egg Robo
Stand-in for Eggman for the test mode of the level builder. The boss fights are slightly customizable. In the final levels it would be Sonic fighting Eggman.
>Fang the Sniper
Chases you in special stages.

>Ray
>Bark
>Bean
>Tails Doll
>Metal Knuckle
Refuse. They would add nothing of worth. They're not even good characters.

>>383666587
The issue with Knuckles is that his overall character profile is extremely limiting. First off, he's a character who, originally, lived alone on a floating island guarding a giant rock all the time. That's it. In SA1 and SA2, the first Sonic games to actually feature some manner of plot, he constantly needed an excuse to leave an island and team up with Sonic and pals. That's why they ended up quietly sweeping that whole deal under the rug. Angel Island and the Master Emerald still exist, but they generally just ignore it when it's convenient for them so that Knuckles can actually go out and do shit without expressly NEEDING their involvement.

Second, the whole stubborn "Sonic's a faggot but I'll only work with him when necessary" schtick would have gotten old really goddamn fast, especially since they always inevitably end up teaming up anyway. So they had a minor sub-arc with him where, at first, he treated Sonic like a potential enemy, then started to accept that maybe he's not such a bad guy after all, until finally they end up as pals. They didn't really call much attention to it, but you can see subtle differences in how Knuckles treats Sonic in SA1 and SA2: Suspicion, then begrudging respect, and finally friendship. Because after all the times Sonic saves his ass, if Knuckles continued to treat him like a villain all the time, he would have lost a fuckton of appeal, coming off as an ungrateful jackass at worst. Subsequently, this ended up expanding Sonic's social circle considerably, since up until then his only friends were an eight-year-old fox and a twelve-year-old stalker.

>>383667201
>Sonic Style mario maker
>Testing stages has you play as metal sonic in a simulated environment
>Neat

>>383666045
Metal Sonic doesn't have any of Sonic's abilities, he was only designed to match him in speed. And he also has a very hard time stopping and turning. Wouldn't it make more sense to go with the robot with Sonic's moves from Sonic & Knuckles?

>>383667275
>n SA1 and SA2, the first Sonic games to actually feature some manner of plot,
Stopped reading there

Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Amy, Robotnik, Knack, Bean, Bark, Espio, Charmy and Vector are the characters I'm cool with and never mind seeing.

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>>383667352
I think designing Mecha Sonic would be hard, he has Sonic's moves but he has a very large frame and his way of moving (crouching and letting an engine carry him) would be kind of awkward looking on slopes and hoops

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>>383666045
>Eggman
Slower than Knuckles but still general pretty fast. Can't spin jump but can stomp on enemies a-la a traditional platformer. Can roll like the rest but it doesn't damage enemies.
>Ray
Faster than Knuckles but still slower than Sonic & Tails. Glides like Meta Knight.
>Metal Sonic
Fast as Sonic. Can't spin jump but can slowly descend. Rolling instead does his Black Shield thing from SA2B and would be able to use V-Max like a super peel out.
>The rest
B O S S E S

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I sure hope Metal Sonic is in Stardust Speedway in Mania with a way better race course

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>>383644313
Nope!
>>383644358
fpbp

>>383667625
I wouldn't mind it being the same race but he cheats with several traps he put there in the past
During the race you can go to the past with the sign posts and break the traps,
then cut to the future again and have Robotnik freak out about them being gone.

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>>383667760
Metal doesn't need to cheat to win. That's more Eggman's shtick.

>>383658482
this

>>383667843
I meant more Robotnik was cheating and you undo it to get a fair race back. Then have him freak out and get really angry when you win.

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Sonic/Tails/Knuckles/Amy
Robotnik/Metal Sonic
Espio/Charmy/Vector/Mighty
Knack/Bean/Bark

Literally all the characters the series needs.

>>383667843
>Metal doesn't need to cheat cheat to win

I dunno. I mean, he's never actually won before either. Frankly, cheating might be the only option he has.

Am I the only one who hates that only Sonic has been going super lately? I'd love to see other characters reach their full potential.

>>383668242
I mean, the only other ones were Knuckles and Tails, who needed Super Emeralds to do it, Shadow who is basically just edge sonic, Silver who is just Trunks, Mecha Sonic for some reason? And arguably metal sonic.

>>383666045
>>383667469
Sonic is fun to play because you have Sonic's very flexible and very distinct moves, deep and rich physics for him to mess around with, with a bunch of really unique levels that test him in different ways. New levels are the most important part, not new characters. New characters don't matter at all. The more cplayable haracters you add that all play really differently, the more bland, messy, and open your stages have to be. The levels should be designed just for Sonic, you can take that in a lot of directions that wouldn't work for other characters. Tails and Knuckles only work because they're the same size and speed as Sonic and have all of his necessary moves, like spindash and spin attack, but even then you have to slow down development to design levels around Knuckles' abilities. I think the three we have now are as far as Sonic should go without resorting to exact clones.
Some characters weren't designed around being playable at all. Eggman would have to play differently form Sonic, he's big and fat and uses giant robots. He can't fight badniks or free animals from himself, he can't fight his own bosses, he is less fun as a playable character than he is as a boss. You could do some bullshit thing like "Sonic and Eggman are fighting a common enemy" or "Eggman lost control of his own robots" but that just cheapens that character. Same for Metal Sonic, he is a boss fight and if you had to make him playable you would have to fundamentally change the character. Some would argue that making Amy fast and strong like in Advance makes her less unique and interesting compared to her appearances in CD.

Sonic doesn't even need those characters. Nix Amy and honestly maybe even nix Knuckles.

>>383658482
So would Knuckles be to Shadow, what Piccolo is to Vegeta?

Shadow in Sonic 06' was the best version of him.

>>383668832
No, because knuckles doesn't have a PHD

>>383668905
Piccolo does not have a doctorate.

>>383668242
I wish we could see Super Sonic do other stuff besides be invincible and fly into a final boss. Darkspine Sonic was alright because in that form he acts a whole lot more violent and made the scripted bits at least a little more interesting. I'm mostly speaking on behalf of the 3D games. Super Sonic is fine in the 2D games.

>>383668852
But what did he do in that?
All he did was chase an edgier sonic around and spout shitty exposition.

>>383668976
leave

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>>383668976
Clearly you are off your meds anon, someone give this man a dose.

>>383668242
I think it's because Sonic is the most skilled at accessing their full potential. In Sonic Adventure, Knuckles mentions that Sonic's probably the only one capable of defeating Perfect Chaos. According to Sonic '06, it seems that Sonic's the only one who knows how to share their power with others.

>>383669009
He wasn't even all that edgy in the game. He was a nice calm and collective friend and rival to Sonic.

>>383669043
>>383669056
Piccolo never got a doctorate. Take a daily dose of reality.

>>383667121
>botched spoiler
Lovely, anyway just to clarify something like Silver's psychokinetic gameplay is eliminated under the clause that the thing that makes the character unique can't just be different but also function competently.

It needed far more polish and at the end of the day like the Mech shooting even if it were refined it doesn't really feel like it brings anything to the table for the Sonic level design, you could just make another game for it. It was just a physics engine gimmick carried over anyway.

Now admittedly the Emerald Hunting stuff was so-so itself and had its failings, and more importantly it's only a 3D thing aerial traversal and moving along walls are something Wisps can do so climbing and gliding aren't Knux or Rouge essential either, but its integration into the standard 3D Sonic format is at least visibly functional. The Werehog thing I feel could be done without but I can see how it was a step towards mitigating what Sonic Heroes and Shadow the Hedgehog failed in introducing combat sections and more elaborate platforming. It still needs work though and I'm not sure the effort in refining it would be worth the cost. After all do you need to play diet GoW that bad?

Speaking of Shadow the Hedgehog I'll meet Retropolis Zone half way and say that some parts of it show using long range weapons can help to do things the conventional attacks can't, adding just a smidgen more to the game design not just with combat but puzzle stuff. Still that feels like something you could fold into Sonic's item inventory rather than requiring a character like Shadow for.

After all what left an imprison in fleshing out the gameplay of Sonic there, the inclusion of a dark character picking up scarcely useful firearms or the specific mechanic of long range attack options?

These are the small but important things that gauge reception, throwing shit into the pot and hoping it sorts itself out has not really worked out.

>>383668714
>maybe even nix Knuckles.

End yourself.

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>>383669134
Hmm

>>383668852
agreed i like him in sonic battle,i cant stand him in the other games

>>383657602
Wait Sonic 2 came out first why was Amy and Metal in conception before Tails and mighty and Ray were made alongside Sonic

>>383669296
Sonic CD was originally going to be Sonic 2, but the team split in half and put the work into 2 separate games.

>>383669213
You should be OD'd by now.

Each Chaos Emerald collected should give you a new ability that you have to input a command like in a fighting game to use, with the final one simply granting you Super Sonic. The individual Emeralds haven't no power is fucking bullshit at this point and you know it.

>>383668242
It's because Sonic is shit compared to his friends who can run fast and come with extra powers. So Sega does everything they can to make Sonic look stronger.

>>383669574
They do hold powers on their own, it's just that sonic is a doofus who can't tap into that power outside of curscene chucklefuckery in SA2. Honestly I think the current system of getting all 7 to earn SS works best since adding other minor abilities one at a time is something that really adds up if you get 6 powers + super when you have them all, making characters way too OP

>>383644313
get rid of metal sonic. he's a piece of junk

>>383669370
Then how about Vector? He was going to be in Sonic 1 in a sound test remember?

>>383644690
sonic doesn't need a rival, he has knuckles already

>>383669140
I don't think ranged weapons work that well in Sonic. Like, in order to make it viable, you have to gimp the Homing Attack and make everything take longer to kill.

The perfect Sonic game would be one that has Sonic, Knuckles, Shadow, Blaze and Silver as the playable characters.

>>383670628
>Shadow, Blaze and Silver
you had me till you mentioned these shit characters

>>383670202
A case was sort of made with the Air Fleet stage when you chase the President's escape pod and progress through the stage while firing at it. It's different from the Mech and Tornado case because it's not quite as unintuitive given you're still given the mobility a Sonic character normally would have.

I completely agree though that it only works in special cases, and if built around firing at regular enemies instead of specific bosses, obstacles or targets it would likely get grating. Still the idea was that it can have its small little spot in shaking things up slightly without breaking the flow if and when done right.

Then again that sort of mantra applies to just about anything so I get how it's not worth much as a selling point.

>>383670628
Short of Blaze being playable that's Sonic Rivals, and they're not perfect Sonic games. No, it's not because they didn't have Blaze

>>383644313
I want more CD Amy. She's cute as a button and was only used once.

>>383669574
>>383669693
I think his idea would work better for characters who can't go super

I feel like, if you really want a Sonic game with multiple playable characters, you should try to limit it to a small number like three. If you really must have more, then I guess you should give them all similar play styles with just minor subtle differences. The less characters you have to work with, the more focused you can make the stages. Make the characters too gimmicky, and you have to make all the stages work with all of those gimmicks.

For instance, take Sonic and Blaze. It's easy to build a game around them because they're really similar characters. Sonic is a bit faster, Blaze can jump a bit higher. If you really wanted to differentiate the two, you could add a few other supplemental abilities, like double jumps and such.

On the other hand, if you were to add Tails into the mix, things would get more complicated, since you'd need to accommodate his flight ability.

>>383665712
>they don't look like Sonic characters

Pre-reboot I agree, after that they fit in nicely. And given the Lost World/Boom/Forces character designs, I'd say Sonic design consistency isn't exactly at its high point right now.

>>383671435
Take a game like 3K or Mania. There's already 3 distinct playable characters who have the stages built around them.

Mighty, Espio, and Vector in Chaotix were basically loose expansions on Knuckles (levels already balanced around), and Cream is essentially Tails with a free Super Flicky. Charmy's just an even more busted Tails, and would be perfectly serviceable as an unlock.

Amy strays the most while still being reasonably balanced, and Advance 1 has already shown that she's really easy to implement.

Remember, the core of the gameplay is sloping level design and pinball physics to generate momentum. That's a really simple foundation that can see all sorts of subtle solitary platforming quirk without rocking the boat too much.

be honest with me /v/ how long until they pull the Sonic mmo trigger?

>>383671725
Knuckles needed to have new stages made for him because otherwise, there's very little that Knuckles can do that Sonic can't. Even Tails' flying ability was largely superfluous. Because Sonic 3 was designed so that Sonic could go almost anywhere and beat everything, the ability to fly, glide or climb can end up entirely unnecessary. They just add a bit of flavor at best.

>>383671892
That would take actual effort.

>>383644313
Yes he does but there has to be standards. Blaze, Shadow, Silver and Bigs for example are fine. Whatever that fairy thing from Unleashed are not.

>>383671892
I guess it depends on how well Forces does, but even then I can't see it being something they'd jump for when Sega has Phantasy Star Online.

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>>383644313
Short answer no. Long answer is the games can add more characters, just way less talking and more action. As you can see in the Forces gameplay, Sonic's friends talk 24/7.

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There is nothing inherently wrong with new characters/an extended cast beyond the "main" ones. Fucking Mario introduces new characters and species between each main entry and no one bats an eye.

The actual problem is that Sonic Team has no fucking self control whatsoever. You want characters other than Tails, Knuckles, or Amy? You're getting ALL OF THEM then, with no rhyme or reason as seen with Forces. Removing friends is just a short term fix to a much bigger problem.

>>383672885
Sonic isn't Mario.

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>>383671892
They've been doing that for years though.