Where did it all go so wrong for the "modern" MMO?

if you die has a dps, you're shit or the tank is shit.

>>383404718

Whenever pets that heal you get released allowing you to have basically a pocket healer 24/7 forever.

Im looking at you, Realm of the mad god.

>>383405168
Or it's a raid and the healer is really bad.
There are plenty of MMO raids with unstated DPS threshold time limits and unavoidable damage. If your healer isn't paying attention you can get situations where the boss launches a wiping mechanic due to their not even trying to assist in DPSing (XIV) or the DPS will slowly die from accumulated damage.

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A decade of trying to copy WoW without realizing what made the game great. This new decade devs are just trying to make a boxed product with mass appeal. Dedicated teamwork and comradely along with quickbar point-n-click games are going the way of the dinosaur, unfortunately.

>>383405168
>if you die has a dps, you're shit or the tank is shit.

t.shitty healslut that's dating the tank

>>383404718
>ill lose dps if i move
fucking dps, I used to play WoW in a top NA guild and the DPS still act like this even at those levels. That was the point where I quit wow for good.

>>383405667
>tfw Stormblood largely made XIV worse in an attempt to cater to WoW fans.

When every MMO started doing raids like WOW. It's boring as fuck. Runescape was literally the only properly structured MMO which had you relying on the economy for your money and the resources to level rather than shitty 4 hour dungeons.

>>383405737
how the fuck I'm dating the tank if i said that he's shit? If the dps dies it's because the tank can't keep the aggro.

>>383405891
>Party-wide damage isn't a thing
>DPS mechanics aren't a thing

>>383405884
Raids can be fun depending on the game, but I'd prefer a system that ditches the trinity and has a lot of fun oversold puzzles, challenges and other bullshit that encourages creativity.

>>383405891
except you know when the boss does a mechanic that forces the dps to move out of the fucking way and he refuses. FFXIV has a shit ton of mechanics that requires everyone to move, regardless of aggro on boss.

>>383404718
> i'm dating the tank IRL

Fuck that drama shit on every guild where there's a girl dating someone there. The boyfriend is ALWAYS a white knight that gets mad with anyone for the slightest thing

>>383404718
The holy trinity is stale garbage

>>383406462
It's literally impossible to deviate from it.

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>>383405891

>>383406175
They can be but rarely are, especially when they're the focus of every single MMO

MOBAS are the new fad

>>383406547
No it isn't you moron. Just do something different.

>>383406189
Speaking of FFXIV, I bought it november of 2015 but haven't played since. Was lvl 50-something if i recall correctly. How much as it changed? I've been thinking of getting back to it

>>383404718
I wonder what the guy who drew that gorilla is doing right now

When everything outside of dungeons/raids is built for solo play and even dungeons/raids are nothing but rotation button pressing simulators. MMOs shouldn't get by with their shitty cooldown and tab targeting gameplay anymore. I can't go back now that action RPG combat is actually really good.

>>383406175
While not really an mmo Destiny does this

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>>383406895
And here we have a good example of a very successful MMO that tried something different

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>>383407125

>>383406969
The recent expansion changed some of the skills classes get, and now cross class skills are job roles. Meaning all tanks get the same cross class skills ect.

PLD are a lot more fun now
DRG less so
MNK has no idea how to feel
SCH ass blasted
SMN feels more like a SMN but people hate the rotation
WHM feels pretty good
NInja getting nerfed so good
Samura ditto the ninja
RDM is major fun imo

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>>383404718

When focus switched from players fucking each other up in the wilderness to players grinding bosses.

>>383407125
GW2 is shit though. They dumbed down the gameplay and skill system so much from 1 it boggles the mind how it can still be an unbalanced mess.

>>383406547
Middle ground?

In Star Trek Online is there's 3 classes. Your dps, tank, and your healer/support/debuffer/cc

But players are not superlocked into a role depending on their class (in space at least). You picked the dps class? You can use a ship that's meant for a tank and not be a pure glass cannon or you could go with a ship that matches your class and don't go full dps spec like a retard thinking someone is going to save you.

Not saying they did it the best but if you're willing you can find a way to get out of the trinity

>>383406895
>Just do something different
The trinity is too broad and balanced. You're only adding coats of paint to the same three chess pieces. MMO combat will always deviate towards the trinity roles because it's too optimal.

>>383407471
>>383407268

>>383407559
Runescape has every single role built into your character when it comes to combat.

>>383407471
Wow did have support/utility roles but they were unfun to play.

>>383407757
And it's infinitely more fun than splitting it up into 3 roles

>>383407882
Even in games where you have access to all of the roles people will deviate towards one of them for optimal play.

The trinity is present in every MMO, at most you get combinations among them or all three together, or a pitiful attempt to make it a square by adding "support" which ends up being a miserable role to play 99% of the time.

It's cancer but it is what it is.

>>383407882
>>383408118
>people will deviate towards one of them for optimal play.
Wow didnt have 3 strict roles
Tanks had to dps, healers had to dps, sometimes dps builds did tank roles like kiting or they helped with healing.

>>383408315
Good thing I included combinations then.

>>383407269
I was a DRG. Do they still have 50 active skills to use on rotation? I thought I needed 3 hands to play this.

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Did any other MMOs try copy GW1?

>>383406547
Except you can easily make a Holy Duo.

>>383408581
sounds like somethin ya made up desu

>>383406547
no
rework threat and add collision

>>383408524
But what kind of combat system doesnt include a combination of tanking healing and damaging?
What is a non-trinity system? Is there an example of one?

>>383408759
DPS + Tank
In place of a healer, healing and buff items and potions instead.

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>>383404718

>>383408776
There's also buffing and debuffing but nobody actually enjoys doing that.

how come no game has copied runescape's economy model? it's the single solitary functioning in game economy

>>383406547
You can easily remove tanks. It makes no sense that a huge ass monster would focus his attacks on a single tiny target for long periods of time. Every attack should be AOE and everyone should simply be moving out of the way

>>383408776
>But what kind of combat system doesnt include a combination of tanking healing and damaging?
earlier editions of d&d
healing shouldn't be done during combat

>>383408776
FFXI had pure support classes and they were great

>>383408863
https://youtu.be/f-5AGFf_IOg

Theres an example of a combat system where you cant tank, healing is only done by potions and all you do is dps while kiting.
Superior fun.

>>383408923
>boss casts AoE on his own location
>doesn't move
>melee can't hit him

Yea, I'm glad you're not a game designer.

>>383409075
Still a deviation :^)

>>383409101
Every boss has a down time

>>383406689
I play healer exclusively so I can let those people die over and over, bonus points if the game has a penalty for death. It's more fun than the actual battles at this point, seeing the tears flow like a river of salt.

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>>383407268
>dragon scimmy
fucking nice
>tfw only ever had a poisoned dragon dagger ++

>>383408893
guardian was cuck + bull in aion

Why is dps so popular in mmos?
I usually try to play the 3 different roles in mmos but always ends up as tank or healer because of shorter queues and tanking is in most of the time the same as dps, the only extra thing you need to do as tank is to pull the mobs and tank the boss in a good stop (if even that)

>>383409484
Tiny damage numbers and boring rotations

How to fix mmos
>>383408923 is step 1
step 2, casters can cast while moving, taking slightly longer to cast spells than standing still (think of it like this, standing still you have wow's 1.5 second casttimes, while moving you have 2.5 seconds, like ff14's GCD)

tanking is obsolete, mmos rely too much on an all powerful being only wanting to hit one person, but if you want it to be better (and yet somehow realistic) then bosses should be aoeing all players, not focusing on 1 to smack around between casting spells. for more magic based bosses they should be casting aoe spells constantly, players can dodge because you can cast while moving, and for melee bosses they will cleave and constantly change targets.

>>383404718
microtransations, followed by all this min max meta fuckery instead of playing the game.

>>383409484
I like tanking because I can compete with dps and its similar to dps with some minor extra responsibilities
Healing feels completely different and requires different skills so I never got into it.

>>383409426
Fucking how? You could 100k in a few hours picking flax

>>383408914
Being support is like giving a condom to a guy who wants to fuck your wife.

>>383406547
I remember playing Lineage 2 and it was pretty ok. Just grab a appripriate buffer and go all deeps. For big targets a destroyer would be a regular meatshield with mild healing from buffer. Not sure how the later patches look tho.

How are the "dead older mmos" such as rift and lotro?
I kinda feel like playing a mmo just to do dungeon runs and I had some found memories of those two

>>383410137
Rift is way too similar to WoW while being much worse.

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>>383409752
I was not a smart child
>go to al-kharid duel arena
>flexin' my new granite maul out
>some girl walks up to me and challenges me
>bets her maul against mine
>lmao2maul
>no magic no weapons no armor
>getting ready to kick this shit out of this cunt for a free maul
>she whips out a magic shortbow and I die like a bitch

>>383409484
Less responsibility and more results. The other two roles involve preventing the failure state of death so if they can't do their job then everything else goes to shit. However, the point of the game isn't so much to stay alive as it is to make sure the other things are dead. That's what damage dealers do, and can continue to do regardless of how inefficiently, so long as there are good enough support players to keep everyone in the party alive.

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>>383410265
>no weapons
>msb

>>383410235
I played it before it went f2p and it was better than wow then

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>>383410380
no melee weapons I mean. I also kept asking people how to wear goblin mail until one of my friends finally told me you couldn't

>>383406547
Blade and soul did it?

It just lacks in other areas. But it's PVP is phenomenal.

>>383410681
>how to wear goblin mail
I think everyone did that, anon

>>383405659
>>383405168
You identified a problem here without realizing it.

There's a sudden need for unavoidable AoE damage, sometimes constantly just to keep the healers awake. The only way to make healing more challenging is to throw stupid amounts of damage everywhere because the job is a complete snoozefest otherwise.
Is bad design though. Healing should be more thoughtful and not this constant reactionary game of whack-a-mole where you bop the low health bars and repeat for 10 minutes.

They should be proactive where you can anticipate and respond do damage using combos that you set up in the down time. The obvious problem here is that this catches shit healers off guard so those playstyles never work and people go back to bopping and the developers are forced to design around that so every fight needs to take place in lava now.

It's bad.

>>383409484
DPS gets to rotate their buttons over and over again whilst tank and healer get the actual hard jobs

>>383410860
Tank presses 2 buttons
>Taunt
>AoE threat generation
Healer presses one button while hovering their mouse over red squares

>>383404718
WotLK killed it. TBC laid grounds to everything that killed it, but it was WotLK that killed it by caving on everything in favor of the whiners, ten year olds, scrubs and single moms. What's really amazing is that the zombie of WoW is still going on. They got people addicted real fucking good. Though I suppose I don't get to look down on anyone because I'm still feeling phantom pain from vanilla.

>Tanking is about threat
Hahahaha. You are smalltime.

Mitigation theorycrafting is 200% more engaging and thrilling than anything relating to DPS, if the game is complicated enough to allow it. Maximizing defense and perfectly timing your active mits while generating only the minimum required threat is the patrician's pursuit.

DTPS meters is honestly the metric that matters the most.
DPS is okay, but it's objectively worthless because the highest DPS is only attainable with pocket healers and raid collusion. Not to mention luck and latency.

And of course HPS is pointless. Raw heal over effective heal is fun to compare, at least.

>>383410681
>>383410768
You could, you just had to become a goblin first.

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>>383407125
>Notice that the trinity is stagnating the genre
>Decide to remove it from your game
>Forget to replace it with anything else
>Team composition doesn't exist at all
>Every fight is a mess

>>383409484
It's the easiest to do


also healers aren't really characters in other mediums, while dps are ever present, just different kinds of dps.
Legolas is bow dps, gimli is axe dps, aragorn is sword dps.

>>383410816
Healing should be a profession skill instead of a main mechanic. As in, healing (other people) shouldn't be castable in combat. That way you can give the healing equipment whether its food, bandages, hell even regen spells, to any class.

No combat should ever require healing to pass. It just promotes dead "whack a mole" gameplay for some % of the population.

>>383411270
nice try fag but you're like 12 years too late for me to fall for that

>>383411403
A lot of people enjoy playing support roles though and I think they have a place. I do think healing shouldn't be the only thing healers ever do though and they shouldn't just be blasting those heals out.

If fights were designed that people died far slower than they currently do, so that they could be steadily regenerated by a healer while that healer does other things such as buffing individual players or even attacked the boss.

That would be more interesting to me.

>>383411580
>During the Land of the Goblins quest the player can turn into a goblin using a transmogrification potion in the Goblin Cave and must dye some goblin armour, each of the colours listed below in order to access restricted tribal areas. The only exceptions are red, green and pink, they have no tribes in those corresponding colours (The red-wearing Thorobshuun and green-wearing Garagorshuun tribes can be found in Goblin Village and it is unknown if there is or ever was a pink-wearing goblin tribe).

http://runescape.wikia.com/wiki/Goblin_mail

I just had a dream, I was playing a mmo of sorts as a priest, and while the action happened on my screen, I had a tablet, The tablet had icons for everyone in the raid, and then I had my spells in an action bar, my character would move automatically, and it wasn't exactly hard, but it was somewhat refreshing? to not be glued to the screen, it was more like any old school rpg or jrpg where you don't move during battle but still can die and things can go wrong.

The graphics were nothing like this, but the action was KINDA like this I guess.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLbaki_Tc5s

I don't know, I've played too many mmos, and I don't hate the trinity, but I think some improvements can be made, I loved shit like valkyrie profile or xenogears, I don't see why we can't have something like that in a more evolved form in an mmo.

>>383411403
Monster Hunter, basically. Don't get hit, hit it until it dies.

The reason healing and tanking exist as separate "roles" is because of the nature of latency in online games. Damage becomes unavoidable because it's based simply on who targets whom with what attack, so it becomes necessary to have someone who can survive those attacks and another who can recover that lost damage. Technology has advanced enough that we can have action RPGs that don't require you to get hit. That's not to say players can't make characters designed for support or damage mitigation, but they shouldn't be required to make or bring along characters that only serve those functions.

>>383410816
But if you do it like that then girls can't play. So it's a no-no.

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>>383411842

>>383408570
Nobody

>>383411950
Just make the cooking professions more interesting to appeal to them.

Deciding to be an MMO. MMOs could easily fix themselves if they stopped being MMOs.

>>383409484
Tank and Healer's failure are more visible. You need a third party program to determine if the dps you brought into the group fuck suck or not

>>383408554
DRG is like 10 buttons now.

>>383411724
Honestly I would rather if support roles only increased team mates supply.

As in, Instead of giving back hit points, they gave mages more mana, rogues more energy, and so on.

Instead of making the team lose slower, supports should make the team win faster.

Holy Trinity in mmos was fucking garbage. mfw these plebs never even played games like UO or SWG

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>>383409484
I like being a good DPS and doing twice the damage while taking none and, if game allows, do shit that other members of the party don't like doing. Also finding the rival who does equally or better than you is the best.

>>383412605
These are the type of players that circle jerk to trendmill gear grind and increasing level cap because they don't know how to have fun with the stuff they have and want more numbers.

>>383405667
>A decade of trying to copy WoW without realizing what made the game great
>what made the game great

There was something that made WoW great?

>>383412293
I haven't played Rift in a while so their Bard class may have changed from what I remember but it was actually great and what I'd like all healers to be, they weren't good healers - but if fights are constantly throwing damage at everyone then a bard could get by. They could top health up if they really needed.

Other than healing they were something like a ranged rogue, they would build up combo points and spend them. Your spenders were largely utility based - debuff the enemy to increase the damage they take, buff your allies to increase theirs. You also had some short buffs like bonus haste or regen which could be maintained throughout the fight.
It was some fun shit.

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>>383408893
fixed

>>383412868
>building on an established franchise and lore
>excellent webcode and great technical execution all around
>shitloads of content developed during the long development time of the game
>fantastic audio work
>good understanding of how to make the world feel huge and pace the content accordingly
>scalping designers and players from older MMOs to create top quality end game content
>timing the market

I can go on and on and on. I haven't seen a single other MMO that can get even half of these right and they all wanted WoW numbers.

>>383407268
I'm actually playing this right now.

I've played a lot of different MMOs, and for whatever fucking reason, runescape is the only one that digs its hooks into me.

It's so simple and there's none of that stupid ability bar bs but I think it's a great game.

>>383411724
>A lot of people enjoy playing support roles
I'd love to play as a support class that doesn't heal. Something like Shadow Priest in WOW:TBC where it worked like a mana battery

>>383410360
>less responsibility
Depends on MMO.

The only job a Tank has keeping aggro and anticipating tankbusters which is a game of memorization since bosses have a fixed rotation. DPS are the reason that make or break an encounter since they are responsible for 90% of mechanics alobg with healers.

If you play a tank in FF14 you are pretty much afraid of taking actual responsibility of the encounter.

>>383404718
WoW, killed the MMO market by casualizing it and making direct design choices to pander to normalfags making every game copy the WoW formula.

Same thing Overwatch is going to do to and already has done to teambased FPS games

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>>383404718
They have QTEs now

https://youtu.be/vvzy-tPaxvI

>>383404718

Trying tanking any encounter with more than one enemy then come back to me about dps' job being harder.

>>383412776
>because they don't know how to have fun with the stuff they have and want more numbers.
You remind me of a time when I played WoW a long time ago and gear found insisde random chests around the world were actually pretty good to level up with.

I miss those times where even a single increment in a stat (like going from 14str to 15str) was actually pretty good and gave you a small but noticeable advantage

>>383412868
>There was something that made WoW great?
The entire lore and 2 factions living in 2 different continents.

>>383404718
MMO were never good

>>383414164
I tried a tank during a free trial and it felt like the entire thing was on my back since I had to lead us through the dungeon and wasn't great at keeping aggro that early, but that must be because I hadn't gotten to the memorization part yet. It might be more accurate to say that DPS is a more welcoming role for beginners early on.

>>383412868

Community + feeling of being in a living world and not a large lobby. Unfortunately one of these are outside of any game to "fix" or do right, just gotta roll those dice.

>>383412868
Yeah it was a game fat fucks and their pig wife could play after getting home from work without needing to memorize any actual skills.

>>383414149
So I'll just point to this again: >>383412934
Bard played like a shadow priest but where the whole point was to buff people in more ways than just extra mana.
It's a great idea - but the real kick is that it's difficult for the developers to balance.

Often times the benefits gained by the support unit isn't greater than if they were just another DPS instead. So raid teams don't use support at all and just bring more damage.

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>>383414406
Thematically that feels very cool to do as a Tank.

It's also a tiny portion of the entire Susano fight.

Kungen did a very good video on why MMO's are shit atm.

>>383414406
>That image
Not cool, he was one of my favorite characters.

>>383414760
Regular dungeons are irrelevant since they arent hard more challenging. You also lack the aggro stances which make tanking depending on class challenging (until 30)

You only really see at max Level during Extreme Trials and Savage raids the most squeezed out of Tanks/DPS/Healers since encounters are unforgiving and a single mistake will reset an entire fight.

>>383412934

Sorta like a lotro burglar/loremaster? Loved being a debuffer

>>383415242
*nor challenging

>>383404718
WoW is the literal monkey's paw for MMOs. It made the genre ludicrously popular, yet now its success and fucking terrible design has permeated into every other MMO, so the genre is stagnant and decaying. It shouldn't even really be called massively multiplayer anymore, not like there's ever much overworld interaction between players after main story quests are finished. XIV is one of the worst culprits of this shit, they make these sprawling areas, and then do fucking nothing with them because WoW did a duty finder type thing, so we have to also. Nevermind that FFXI did a tight knit community and overworld leveling just fine, WoW made billions, ergo original ideas are pointless and we must follow their playbook. Now quietly sit in your Free Company house where you quietly hit up Duty Finder to quietly do an instanced grinding dungeon with 3 other quiet people you will likely never meet again because they're from totally separate servers.

MMOs just need to go comatose for a while. Wait until a developer when some balls tries some much needed innovation to resuscitate it.

>>383415361
I dont even know anyone on my server because theres no reason to socialize.

And now that we have Cross-Server shit theres even less reason to give a fuck about anyone.

>>383415361
The fact that MMOs have shrunk their Massive so much - to where most content is done by a group of 4 or 5 players.
Combined with the fact that most other games are now integrating pseudo-multiplayer elements where you see other players in the world and can communicate with them, even though you don't necessarily play with them.
Together this is really blurring the lines to where either any game or no game can be considered an MMO.
It's a rather meaningless term now.

>>383415582

>I dont even know anyone on my server because theres no reason to socialize.

Back in vanilla people knew me that I never talked to, and I knew people I never talked to. There was word of mouth and especially on a smaller side sever everyone knew everyone end game. Miss that kind community in an mmo and it's what really puts me off modern day ones.

>>383406547
what about GW2?

>>383415910
Back in Vanilla on an RPPVP server I had a Human rogue named Margerine. Found out later I pissed off someone so badly they made an orc rogue named Butter cause they wanted to prove they were better than me.

You just simply can't have pointless dick waving contests like that any more in MMOs.

>>383416176
He probably should have added "and make it not a piece of shit."

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Mmos are trying to be too many things, thats the problem. WoW is simply diablo but in mmo form with how fluid the action system is. And diablo was just a casualization of the dungeon crawler formula for more action orientated players. What you're probably asking from mmos is more of a place to be rather than a place that treats you like you're in an amusement park. But as long as the current industry exists, you'll never have someone risk millions of dev dollars to try to appeal to older gamers that aren't attracted to shallow mechanics.

No country for old men.

>>383404718
When they tried to balance for both PVE and PVP and effectively turned the game to shit.

>>383416332
GW2 is fine though. It's not the exact same game as GW1 but thats why are you are still able to play that game.

>>383415910
In FFXI and XIV 1.0 if you were a shitty human being, word got around pretty quick about your status as such, and you were blacklisted from the high end linkshells real fucking fast. Because MMOs used to mirror real life as far as communities were concerned. You wanted kind people around you, and you pushed away shitters. Now who fucking cares, no one talks because cross server means they're all total strangers anyway, and even if you somehow miraculously manage to be known on your server as a shit person, you can just wait for fights to get added to the duty finder.

MMO developers need to learn that convenience is not always a good thing. If players are not forced to interact on a massive scale and play nice together, they just won't even bother, and your game is going to be a fucking ghost town in months.

>>383416176
That game went back trinity so fast

>>383408920

Till they fucked it up.

>>383416683
Problem is that GW2 is absolutely nothing like GW1. Even the setting and theme changed.

>Log back into vanilla wow
>Oh wow there is another AV going!
>join in
>Slowly realize it is the same game I left yesterday

>>383416827
You can say this, but the reality is that the people paying for these games WANT to be in their little circles. You forget that a lot of people are anti social by nature and not having to talk to people extends even into this virtual world. Thats why no matter what you say, no dev will ever listen to the crowd who asks for more work because the casuals who are constant subscribers rather not work. Mmos are not about challenge any longer. This isnt the everquest years.

>>383416860
how so? the only thing thats really set in stone in the meta is on raids you have 2 chronos for speed and 2 zerkers for might. generally no dedicated tanks or dedicated healers.

>>383417006
I mean, it's a different game. If they wanted to make something with the same setting and tone they would have just made another xpac for GW1

>>383405884
>Runescape is good meme

>>383417513
>If they wanted to make something with the same setting and tone they would have just made another xpac for GW1
Old anet wanted that. NCsoft meddle with the company and told them to make GW 2. Then kill City of Heroes thinking GW 2 and Wild Star kill WoW

>>383417667
Runescape did borrow from Everquest which was the true sandbox mmo.

I like the way LOTRO does the spread of usefulness between classes. You need to have a tank healer and dps, but at the same time you need a buffer, debuffer, and crowd control for larger group play. That and the ability to off heal off tank and off dps as one of the other class types lets you turn around a would be wipe when the tank or tanks die, which would be impossible with the "holy trinity". That and support classes are often times more engaging than the others because you need to keep in mind how long buffs/debuffs/cc last, who has them, and who you'll be able to put them on.
That's just my opinion because I like the game though.

>>383405659
Reminds me of a dungeon I did where the tank wasn't doing his job and I died as a DPS and the healer refused to res me calling me lazy and saying that healing is not their job.

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>>383418115
>be in WoW
>healing is #1 priority. Do not fuck up. Do not dps
>be in FF14
>if you arent dpsing as a healer, you arent doing your job

Is it because the game is so casual that everyone wants to dps?

>>383417907
I would literally suck the dick of any Captain since early on very few played them despite them making every one 200% more comfortable

>>383410816
Like using shields and regen fields like in XIV?

>>383418358
This was in WoW though that was the problem, we ended up beating the dungeon with no side objectives complete and 2 team member quits by the end because the tank didn't understand that DPSing as a bear is not effective.

>>383418704
Well, earlier WoW did make tank role more of a hybrid. Back then, the roles weren't too set in stone. Everyone was a hybrid, though relatively simple.

>>383419196
This was legion though.

>>383419306
Im not surprised.

mmos are shit because mmo players don't even like playing video games. all they want is a 3d chat room where they can convert grinding into e-peen. just look at how many mmo players can't even think outside the basic class triangle. you tell them all you have to do is remove healing and aggro and they can't even imagine how it would work.

>>383405810
>tfw topping the dps meter while simultaneously bottom of the damage taken meter

Fucking everyone was jealous.

>>383419672
In older mmos, you had pullers and someone to keep the enemy grounded enough to where it couldnt reach the dps who killed it down. The AI wasnt very great back then, either, so the essential strat was to have a "tank" taking damage while everyone hit it and the healer kept him healthy. So the trinity is more of a natural form of things in the end.

>>383404718
casualization and the lack of a real community
insta-queuing for raids and dungeons was a mistake, also there has been a lack of innovation in MMOs for the past decade and devs are too afraid to let world PvP happen some recent examples of this are ESO and BDO

>>383420728
league, overwatch, and hots proved that world pvping isnt coming back. At least in those games, you are given an equal chance of fighting with a team. World pvp in wow simply became a guerilla fest. It also doesnt help that most of the game isnt tailored around world pvp but rather leveling content with pvp tacked on.

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Wow is still the best tab target mmo in existence, everything else just tries to copy and fails.

Action combat was the only gamble any mmo companies tried recently, Tera combat is incredibly fun. Black Desert is pretty good too.

>>383404718
Why do you say mmo when you mean mmorpg you autistic cuntflap?

If you can solo level in your "MMO" You're doing it wrong.

What about this : Make healing in combat virtually impossible because it necessitates concentration and whatever, find an excuse. But make dodging much more important and I guess make it so nobody dies in 1-2 hits. Also really reduce out of combat regeneration and have huge cooldowns on pots. That makes healers necessary but more so people can keep fighting between battles. To not make healers useless in combat though you could just slap the healing abilities on some particular spellcasting classes or just have your generic cleric that can hold its own during a fight, maybe sprinkled with some very fast casting shields, like you see a teammate isn't gonna make it out of the AoE in time, slap your 0.1 second cast time shield that has a 2 minutes cooldown on him.

I think the trinity is fine for the most part, it's just the gameplay of each class has grown very stale.

>>383404718
When the class system barely changed. If the difference between two classes is essentially; 'Class #1 is the melee DPS class and class #2 is the ranged DPS class', you know it's going to be garbage.

I can't believe I'm saying this but maybe take some inspiration from Mobas. While the characters in those games can be summed up by their role and you usually have a balanced number of roles on the team, their individual effectiveness varies actually based on what their teammates picked. Use that intentional synergy to allow MMO classes to create a variety of different builds depending on the composition of their party. Guild Wars managed to slightly do this as you could adjust your build to compensate for the lack of a monk but it needs to be taken further with multiple damage types and party compositions that can take advantage of each one.

>>383421201
Thanks for your opinion BDO shill, you may now return to your cubicle and $0.01 will be awaiting in your bank account

MMO playerbase is retarded

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>>383406547

>>383404718

>Where did it all go so wrong for the modern MMO?

When FFXI wasn't the standard but WoW was.

>>383423560
FFXI still runs, lots of people still play it.

2k people online atm on my server right now.

That's why I like Destiny's "everyone is dps" structure. Lots of boss fights force players to swap roles on the fly and after doing a fight twice everyone can do so seamlessly without any player communication.

>>383406547

>Dungeon Fighter Online
>85% of classes are raw, unbridled DPS
>10% of classes are magicky/summoner gimmick classes, still DPS
>5% of classes are ultimate god-tier supports that are must haves in your parties.

>Said 5% doesn't fucking heal for beans minus the Crusaders (Male and Female), but you don't get them in your parties for healing, you get them in your parties for the extra 10,000-15,000 attack and stat buffs that make you inevitably steamroll hard content.

>This has gotten to the point in which the devs have announced that partying with "Top tier classes only" (including said supports) in hardest content will NERF YOUR PARTY PERIOD, while playing with undervalued/useless classes give you said stat buffs instead of the saders/nen masters

There's no tanks, and the healing generally comes from items unless you're in a real shitty situation. Trinity defied. GG. I'm still laughing at how they just can't stop the sader train without making partying with them unattractive

>>383424002
It's easy to do that in shooters where you can avoid damage from hiding behind cover

>>383424002
Hearing destiny is coming to PC, I might get it. Im just afraid of all the microtransaction shit they're going to throw at me.

>>383424216
>>383423480
>>383422962
>>383423068
what gaem

>>383407278

PvP is shit though. Why would I play some lame latency-bogged shitfest when I could play something like INSERT A FIGHTING GAME HERE THAT ISN'T A MMO!

I mean as much as I love Age of Wushu, the fact that you have to either get one of those hacker routers or buy a VPN/Pingzapper just to PvP with an edge is and will always be retarded.

>>383407125

>Players do dungeons by running a specific wing multiple times fast as fuck

>It's efficient, it's fun!

>NERFED INTO OBLIVION YOU FAGGOTS NEED TO SEE THE REST OF WHAT WE WASTED TIME MAKING FUCK YOU NIGGERS

Dropped that like a hot potato when combined with the guild dissolving due to drama.

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>>383405168
I've had a lot of deaths that were from nothing but raid wide damage and targeted damage, with no healing in between. Part of me thought that maybe keeping the tank up was so intense that they just had to let me die, but once I started healing for myself I've noticed just how fuckin lazy and/or selfish a lot of healers are.

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>>383424389
Evercraft.

>>383412075

>Cooking gets nerfed and made useless due to exploiting fags on streams

Thanks Kripp.

>>383406689
>sizzle text
MODS

>>383424882
lul

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>>383424212
>>This has gotten to the point in which the devs have announced that partying with "Top tier classes only" (including said supports) in hardest content will NERF YOUR PARTY PERIOD, while playing with undervalued/useless classes give you said stat buffs instead of the saders/nen masters
So they've finally completely lost it over in Korea, is what you're telling me. They just can't stop Saders, so they have to indirectly nerf them in high end content. I'm not surprised that this happened before they fixed them, too many whales were invested in their Saders and if you piss them off too much you lose a lot of money. It really is funny though.

Any MMOs anymore that involve more social interaction and immersion and less pixel grinding and "questing"?

Can someone please give me a good MMO, I'm fucking bored of """"""""competitive""""""""""" multiplayer games

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>>383425335
dark souls

>>383410816
they attempted to do something like that with discipline priests in WoW, it alternates from being overpowered to nerfed depending on the expansion.

became my new main after i got bored of tanking on a warrior for burning crusade and wrath after a long period of leveling god damn everything to find something that clicked.

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>>383404718
Because no-one else emulated FFXI Online's golden age, which was the pinnacle of the MMO experience. Instead devs went for just copy/pasting the WoW system because they're only interested in making a quick buck, not making a good game with good mechanics and gameplay.

>mfw most MMOs have only Healer/Tank/DPS shit

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>>383425192
>pedophilia

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>>383426346
keep your perversions to yourself

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>>383426669
>>383427096
>no fluffy tail to touch
Give this poor doomed soul what he deserves

>>383425335
FFXIV

It's comfy.

>>383428908
>have to pay each month to play
no thanks

>>383429137
You won't play for more than one

>>383429137
There aren't any good free or b2p MMOs

>>383424212
>>This has gotten to the point in which the devs have announced that partying with "Top tier classes only" (including said supports) in hardest content will NERF YOUR PARTY PERIOD, while playing with undervalued/useless classes give you said stat buffs instead of the saders/nen masters


This never happened.

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>>383404718
Tera solved this while retaining the Trinity.

The key was making healers have to aim heals, deal light DPS to debuff, CC, and use support abilities like mana regen / power buffs.

Tanks had threat abilities but it was mostly about dealing damage from the front while avoiding / blocking hits. It was more about holding aggro through slapping shit hard and fast to control the boss.

DPS generally did what they usually do but they would pull threat and bosses would immediately do a big sweep AoE animation attack to the back DPS and start mauling them.

Healers and DPS also had to dodge decent amounts of unspecified 0% threat abilities bosses threw out on targets or general AoE attacks that needed to be iFramed through or ran from.

Strong DPS / Tanks rarely needed heals on fights without inherent AoE you had to take, which led to more Healer DPS, buffs, debuffs.

Definitely going back after console release for whatever optimizations they make.

When will MMOs start taking notes from Oldschool Runescape regarding questing? I don't care what the whiny "i do monkey madness for le dscimmy only i am pk god xD" say the quests there actually felt like real quests. Hell if you didn't like to quest there were treasure trails which are still more fun than the average uninspiring quest/instance in any MMO these days. Isn't the whole point of a MMO to go on and adventure ffs and not bring 60 quillboar tusks to some fucko Mankrik because of "muh wife wuz killed" or some shit. Why did WoW have to implement this faggot ass quest design.

>>383411403
They kinda did this in Blade and Soul where you had a potion that heals for 30% of hp on a 1 minute cooldown and that was it besides self heals. There was no dedicated healer and combat is focused on I-frames, invincibility, and dodge/block/parry. All players were DPS and whoever deals the most damage is the "tank."

Too bad NCsoft is a shit company.

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>Delete the trinity
>Have each class have its own unique way to mitigate damage and recover health
>MMOs saved.

Trinity is a failure state of the devs to make a good AI. There is no reason a boss wouldn't slap a healer around instead of a tank

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T*gole B*tties and the other poopsockers from Everquest went on to make WoW and encouraged more poopsocking game design. Thank god pic related is combating this horseshit

>>383430192
>Definitely going back after console release for whatever optimizations they make.
>Want to go back
>Don't want to deal with having zero new content because I don't play a female character
>Don't want to deal with playing slots to make my raid gear usable again

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>>383430897
One of the things I like about Monster Hunter. You can play little roles if you want, but for the most part, everyone's just responsible for themselves and the common goal

When devs decided that all of the game's content needed to be accessible without a guild or any sort of static group, let alone a reasonable level of skill.

Don't get me wrong, the vanilla WoW/BC design of "hit level cap, get dungeon gear, proceed to not have any viable form of progression for two years unless you commit to a 12-20+ hour/week raiding schedule" wasn't perfect either, but the ideal point is a balance between that and the current standard of "all content is doable in PuGs where nobody actually knows what the fuck they're doing."

heres how to fix mmos
delet tank or make it just play like a dps that generates extra threat and has less group utility outside that so people dont stack them
delet unavoidable group damage and give healing classes more damage spells, FF14 exemplifies this but it needs to be pushed further
healers should spend most of their time doing damage but be the ones tasked with healing the dps fuckups when they get hit by the avoidable stuff, along with keeping the tank up from the bosses autos
mmos fixed

>>383414406

eh, FFXIV's QTEs are fine because they're rare enough to still be a cool gimmick (last I checked they've only done them in three fights so far?)

It's not like WoW where every time the encounter designers got a new toy to play with they'd use it so much (and usually so poorly) that everyone fucking hated it before they scaled it back a bit (prime example: vehicles.)

Design a raid (or other end-game content) that does not utilize the tropes that MMOs do today.

>>383433790
Did someone cast a Vaseline spell on her or something?

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>>383434238
Something like that.

>>383424304
You're going to have to pay for 80% of the game via DLC

As someone who doesn't play MMOs, please enlighten me.

Is the whole party usually super anal about the maximum DPS efficiency or is that just the people doing DPS? Are people fine with the DPS being less efficient as long as they themselves try to dodge damage and let the healer focus on say, the tanks?

>>383435765
depends on the fight. Gear checks bosses are usually reliant on dps.

>>383435765
If you dont have the DPS for a boss thats when people get anal about it

>>383435765
Most people don't care as long as the encounter is beaten, desu.
If the group is having trouble with an encounter, the least efficient player of whatever role is having trouble is usually called out or kicked until the encounter is completed.

>>383404718
This is why GW2 is GOAT.

>>383435765
More serious parties care more. (And more serious parties do the most difficult content.)

As time passes, and easy content gives out better gear, casual players go back and do the earlier fights.

>>383435765
It depends on the context, but for pugs and guild shit middling dps is more like an excuse to kick you than a reason. If it's not exceptionally low and you're not drawing attention to yourself by being and idiot or an asshole no-one will mind unless you're wiping on a dps check.

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>>383423560
This

MMOs went to shit when everyone started jamming dodge rolling in there.

>>383425116
Who is this semen demon

>>383435765

Outside of serious progression groups, the only three metrics people use for how good a DPS is are

A) Are they dying to avoidable mechanics
B) Are they doing enough damage that the group is passing "do X DPS or fail the encounter" checks
C) Is their DPS above the "so embarassingly low that they're obviously either phoning it in or just completely clueless" theshold (the line here is generally the tank/healers' DPS, though there are games/circumstances where one or both of those roles could be higher for reasons other than the DPS being bad)

Basically, DPS has a low enough skill floor that outside of the most serious content as long as you have the basics of how to not be bad figured out nobody cares if you're doing the maximum damage you can theoretically do.

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>game follows the trinity pretty loosely
>tanks don't have perma aggro on every single mob but have to target key enemies to prevent group from being gutted
>healers keep people topped off and have a few ohshit buttons but generally maintain a steady hps throughout a fight while simultaneously dealing damage
>dps do the usual but are responsible for their own asses as far as survivability goes and have to be smart about it

Best MMO I've played in a long ass time and I've played a fucking lot of them.

>>383436794
>ffxiv
>crowd control
the creator of that image and those who saves it clearly hasn't played ffxiv

>>383404718
They kept imitating WoW instead of the far superior Vindictus

>>383437723
Vindictus is not an mmo.

RAIds

Never played FFXIV

What class should I play? I don't mind playing Healers, but I need to be able to decently solo since I can't commit long periods of time to groups.

>>383437351
what gayme?

>>383414146
Enjoy it while you can. Jagex has shown that they're absurdly inept as of late and honestly it's time for Runescape to die. Ever since the Gower's left Jagex has been king shitters. Like they had a good thing going once but every thing they do they ruin.

Warhammer online did classes very well: each faction had their own unique classes that only kinda sorta had a counterpart. Each class played unique and yet was still roughly one of the holy trinity.

Aion followed the trinity and tab targeting, but the more action-esque combat with skill chains was refreshing.

TERA did combat really damn well, as well as the world building, but dropped the ball on raids and pvp. It feels so close to a perfect mmo / "The World" but fell flat on too much.

Is any mmo even worth playing nowadays?
WoW seems impossible to go back to, its too far gone from what it was when I played.
FFXIV feels slow and like a "WoW killer"
BDO is P2W endless grind


Fuck I just want a world to explore and live in to escape this shitty one.

>>383438276

Arcanist levels Summoner and Scholar simultaneously. I don't remember if the jobs have to be leveled separately after 30 since I haven't played since HW but I want to say they don't.

>>383438451
ESO

>>383438553
ESO

>>383424672
>>It's efficient, it's fun!
>fun!
>f
>u
>n

Running to a corner and spamming your aoe skills until everything died was not fun, nor interesting nor worthy use of time.
Also trying to experience dungeons for the first time was literally impossible. "What you don't know exactly the best optimal speedrun strat trough this dungeon and made a mistake, kicked, banned, reported and assassins sent after player."

>>383438553

Warhammer Online has a pretty good private server, Return of Reckoning.

>>383438553
Yeah I really like the Mark Jacobs mmos factions specific classes. It's the main reason I'm more hyped for Camelot Unchained than Crowfall and Ashes and all those other upcoming games.

>>383438553
I honestly think FFXIV is the only MMO worth a damn at the moment. WoW really has gone to shit. Legion is literally Diablo: WoW

>>383438673
Never played ESO. Might try it eventually.

>>383412293
Buffers/enchanters need to be a thing and healers need to be scrapped. I don't remember playing any mmo as a healer where I wasn't glued to the health bars of my raid or party.

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>Used to only play DPS
>Got bored of it
>As WoW got less interesting I switched to tanking
>But then tanking got easier, and it's mostly about mitigation which is predictable and clinical in most cases
>Switch to healing
>Healing is just seeing healthbars go down and make them go backwards to full, and dispelling debuffs every once and a while.
I don't think I ever played WoW for the gameplay, I think I just played it for the people, and for the loot. Once both of those stopped being present or necessary, I just kinda faded out.
At least demon hunter was fun while I was just playing again, but then it just became "Generate shards, use demon spikes, use all your moves on cooldown, and use wards if they use magic, might need to jump in order to move the boss around" and continue that for 1000 hours

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>>383407278

This.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the holy trinity. It's everywhere precisely because it works perfectly.

The actual problem comes from trying endlessly to appeal to that shitty crowd, you know the one, that one whiny faggot that went on the forums all the time to cry how he has 500 jobs and 1893 children and therefore he is entitled to the same outcomes as other people who forsake everything else to play the game.

By doing this, they completely removed attrition and the sense of risk, which in turn has completely destroyed any semblance of an actual adventure you could possibly had. Every is padded out, everything is already planned before hand, you have one road set in stone, no, do not look to the sides, there is nothing there. Follow this quest chain, we will give you every gear you need in order to keep progressing non-stop and we've pinpointed exactly where you need to go. Do this raid, there is one set in stone way to do it and no, you don't need to socialize with people, we've made matchmaking automated for you. We've also put arbitrary limits to how many times you can do said content on a daily basis all so nobody can advance past you and everybody gets to be a winner. We've also made sure have every activity done inside an instanced safe space, all so you could never get challenged by other players.

Now run the same raid the exact same way you've done before and do your dailies with fixed rewards. Re-run said raids so you can gring for gear in order to grind for gear, even though there is no actual point. Once the next DLC arrives, please do everything again because we've just invalidated all of your equipments. That's right, they are bottom of the barrel trash and guess what? You can't even sell them on the market to newer players because in order to increase the sense that you're in a single player game with mute people on the background, every item is soul-bound!

Enjoy your adventure!

>>383424212
DUNgeon fighter online isnt your typical mmorpg

>>383438842
Go play tank in a vanilla server

>>383409426
i grinned pure essence for months saving up for a dragon 2h, people made fun of me

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>>383438814
Not him, but I tried FFXIV. I played a white mage and leveled for a while. I loved working towards white mage and unlocking it was super satisfying, but eventually leveling began to feel like a slog. Enemies didn't do much, and the story was kinda dull. Then I was told you have to complete each DLC's story in order to go to the next one by a friend, and I realized I would be alone in old content for a while, and I just dropped it.
Also I hate anime aesthetics, but thats besides the point.

>>383409572
So you haven't actually played a modern mmo, because the bosses constantly do aoe shit, ether avoidable or just raid wide damage to be healed.

>>383438976
Tanking in vanilla was also kind of dull, but I would have the community back again I suppose.
But damn I played on Elysium and I got tired of being whispered by gold farmers every minute or so. Without fail, always getting them constantly. The same one, forever, under different names.

>>383438842
Sup demon bro.
I was on the same boat too, I loved both havoc and vengeance until shit like demon blades became pretty much mandatory.

>>383439303
Yeah, momentum was fun because it actually took work to pull off.
Too bad man.

>>383439293
Well I tried tanking Deadmines at low level and it opened my eyes to how difficult and engaging old WoW was compared to Legion.

>>383439434
Yeah, it's tough. Late game though tanking isn't that interesting.
But the leveling is much better, considering you can actually die, unlike live wow where if you die before level 100 you did something wrong.

>>383438814
>I honestly think FFXIV is the only MMO worth a damn at the moment

Love this meme. This shit is the exact same trash as every other wow clone and completely unremarkable in every way. In fact it's even worse because there is literally no pvp whatsoever outside of that shitty arena nobody gives a fuck about.

The only nice thing it has is the profession system, which isn't even close to being enough to carry a game on its own.

In the end of the day, it's the exact same garbage that >>383438863 pointed down and doesn't bring absolutely anything new to the table.

>>383410235
>>383410594
People always say vague shit like this. "Like wow, but better or like wow or worse", but without going in any details it's impossible to know what they mean, as mmos are kinda big games with lots of elements.

So if everything is shit, what is good?

Is City of Heroes private server up yet?

>>383439638

Nothing, that's the point.

This is a genre that has completely alienated its core fans and has completely lost itself. There isn't a single MMO nowadays that is worth it and that isn't a rip-off of some other more famous one, specially WoW.

>>383439638
>So if everything is shit, what is good?
Nothing really.
Most people still playing MMOs are just sticking to the shit games they are familiar with and too attatched to to let go, i.e. WoW.

I don't understand the appeal of XIV, i subbed for 3 months and iv'e had enough. The fucking endless PotD grinding is terrible and not even the netflix meme can save you, the gap between expacs is the worst though 100 filler quests just to get to HS is bullshit. PvP is terrible too. It's just endless grinding to get to the fun stuff and even then the fun stuff wasn't worth the hours of endless boredom it took to get there. Shit game you only like it because of the c@s

>>383439720

Or the people still in that denial phase hoping to "find the one" and jumping from shitty wow clone to shitty wow clone, as well as the faggots ERPing.

>>383439638
Ask the guy running tequila. He could but he doesn't want to

>>383439749
Name brand, it FF11 2

>>383439749
The only upside it has is that it runs really well. That's it. It's still the same old wow-wannabe with endless and utterly pointless carrot-on-a-stick gear grinding.

>playing tera with a buddy
>10 man raid
>we take a balloon early while the rest of the party isn't in the balloon so they show up to the next boss late.
>rest of the party decides "fuck those guys lets all just watch them die."
>10 minutes later the boss that is supposed to take 10 people is down to 80% of it's health just from the two of us fighting it.
>team finally realizes we are allowed to troll because we are better than them.
>proceed to steal loot we can't equip

>tfw no MMO with Space Station 13-level immersion, Black Desert graphics, and Guild Wars 2 gameplay.

>>383440105
Honestly the best MMO would only have ~3000 people on but would have GMs actively curating events in a sandbox setting like SS13

>>383440105
>Black Desert graphics
Yeah, enjoy those pop-ins.

>tfw everquest next would have legitimately been the most interesting post-WoW MMO

when copying minecraft is more exciting than raiding dungeons its safe to say the genre is dead, its time to let it go

>>383439749
What the fucking endless PotD grind? Just by following the story and doing mandatory dungeons and some roulette here and there walks you into end game.

XIV is only mmo where I've gotten anywhere beyond beginning as it understood that using a story can make the 50 levels of tutorial gameplay and fetch questing just interesting enough to keep me going.

>>383440040
they asked for it, you did the absolutely correct thing

>>383406547
Yeah, if you keep the roles rigid. Create hybrid roles and you get the following:
>healer
>tank
>dps
>healer/tank
>healer/dps
>tank/dps
There, I just double the amount of possible roles in the game. You could even expand it further by creating a super hybrid role of all 3 in which they're a jack of all trades. I loved playing a Shaman in early WoW for this reason but they made the roles rigid so now that class sucks.

>play tank
>have to constantly juggle dps and aggro because if you don't do enough dps, you're shit
>dps constantly hitting same enemy and not using aggro reduction skills
>healer refusing to top you off before tank buster
>have to watch boss mechanics and use CDs wisely to avoid party wipe

>play dps
>spam rotation over and over, sometimes moving out of the way of an AoE

wew

>>383440557
>healer
>tank
>dps
>bad tank or bad dps
>bad healer or mandatory healer
>bad dps or best tank

>>383439070
they recently introduced jump potions now so you can skip story and levelling, though each is sold separately and is about 25 dollars each iirc
it's a shitty solution sure but it's there, though it's not one i'd personally go with even though i enjoy the game

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>>383438553
>Warhammer online
I will NEVER forgive EA for ruining that.

The fact that those niggers refused to let it go F2P in the end because it would be admitting failure is even worse.

>>383440557
>>healer/dps
>>tank/dps
That's what every healer and tank already is. Literally everyone has some capacity to deal damage, and as long as their main objective "no one shall die" is fufilled, they should be outputting as much dps as they can.
The trinity is defined by their primary role, not by everything they can do. Red Mages in FF XIV can throw out heals and even res dead party members, but are still dps job in the game's eyes. So those kind of hybrids already exist.

>>383441346
So the OP was wrong, there are deviations from the trinity.

>>383441827
Well, op's image was bull from the beginning, and never though it to be argument to be taken seriously.

Also minor deviations don't change the main nature of the three roles. Healers main job is to make sure that everyone stays alive, tanks job is to keep enemy's attention eating heaviest hits and position them favorably and dps' job is to make sure that as much damage is dealt as possible.
But in minor ways the roles can help each other's jobs. Dps can have skills that lower enemy's damage helping tanks, tanks can have skills to make enemy weaker to incoming damage to help dps, healers can have protective shields that again help tank and then there are support skills that don't fall in any role, like giving party members additional mana.

>>383430445
*actual Runescape before gower brothers left and it all went to shit
OSRS is missing most of Runescape's best quests.

>>383441346
>>383441827
>>383442495
I think OP just want to have an MMO discussion. When threads just start with WHAT MMO ARE YOU PLAYING, no one respond.

>>383435765
when you realize that mmo players don't actually like playing mmos it all makes sense. higher dps means faster clears. faster clears means less time spent actually playing the game.

>>383442845
Having an MMO discussion is impossible on /v/ because of the final fantasy niggers

>>383442906
Well no shit, and there was a weekly discussion in /vg/, but that dead because of GW 2 fags.

>>383442906
You mean because of wow niggers.

Final fantasy niggers post their ERP logs.

>>383438673
buy to play AND monthly sub, lol no

>>383442967
Have the mods even tried to do something about that bot?

>>383443136
No, the final fantasy niggers who won't go on /vg/ like they belong, because they're incapable of self-moderation, hijack most generic MMO threads.

>>383442906
What? People want to talk about a mmo they play?
Despite the memes XIV is popular enough to have thread filling amount of players in /v/.

I think the real issue is, what function does generic mmo thread have? Most people play one mmo at the time and that's the thing they want to talk about. "Mmos used to be better" nostalgia threads on the other hand are their own thing.

>>383443260

>bot

Is that why the /gw2g/ thread is completely nonsensical conversation?

>>383443419
/gw2g/ resident try to take over the general like FF14 fags with the mmo threads here. What end up happening is their bot follow them. It still pisses me off that they HAVE a working Discord chat, but got greedy with /mmo/

>>383443517

Why does a bot follow them? Why is a bot even spamming them in the first place?

why can't they make a mmo with class types from non-rpg class based games? like the typical slow but strong class and the fast but fragile one.

>>383443382
>What? People want to talk about a mmo they play?
>Despite the memes XIV is popular enough to have thread filling amount of players in /v/.
Which means it belongs on /vg/ you dumb nigger, you faggots hijack both generic MMO threads and nostalgia threads..
>B-but but there are ERPers there circlejerking, or whatever retarded excuse you faggots use to claim you have the right to ruin /v/ threads
So report them and crosslink the specific rule violations.

>>383443613
If I recall, the person that made the bot hated the resident of the general. Your typical waifu spam and all those retarded shit. I think he doesn't want them to be in /vg/ at all and will kill anything that would allow them to talk about guild wars 2 in /vg/

>>383443726

Autistic as fuck. Does he bypass captcha somehow or just keep buying passes after getting banned?

>>383443648
What is funny is that is the exact excuse the GW 2 residents use when they try to defend themselves at /mmo/ when they're told to leave, despite risking the destruction of their general with their bot, which it did.

>>383405168
Except there's plenty of times I've been low hp because of unavoidable aoe damage and have not gotten a single heal for over 10 seconds then die to the next unavoidable aoe damage.

>>383405624
I miss old realm

>>383443648
Wow has a general too and it doesn't prevent making threads about it. Talking about games that have generals in /vg/ has never been against the rules and for a game that just got a new expansion less than a month ago and new content less than week ago, being talked just makes sense.

/Vg/ has always been a circle jerk containment ground, /v/ is proper place for video game discussion, and that's what happens when people talk about XIV here.

>>383443795
Bot find the thread with key words. I just made this thread. Watch it get botspam

>>>/vg/182202336

>>383444119
>Wow has a general too and it doesn't prevent making threads about it
But you don't exclusively make threads.
You hijack them.
You can pinpoint the exact moment you faggots arrive in a thread when it suddenly gets a lot more active but all of the posts are about your shitty MMO.
>/vg/ has always been a circle jerk containment ground
This is entirely the fault of improper self moderation.
/rsg/ is clean as fuck now of circlejerkers and furfags, and other generals like /egg/ never even had that problem in the first place.

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>DUDE GET RID OF THE HOLY TRINITY LMAO

You fucking morons realize some of the smartest game designers in the world cannot even solve this, right? It's not as easy as giving everyone the ability to heal and tank. GW2 did that and it died after a few months because the actual multiplayer content required no coordination between players. It was literally just "ZERG HERE ZERG THERE HURRR".

You're a lonely, virgin NEET loser. You certainly don't know how to solve it.

When they lost the sense of adventure and community. Things that used to take a long time in MMOs like travel, keying for dungeons and raids, dungeons and raids themselves, gearing appropriately etc. All these things gated players.

These things used to be challenging and they forced you to forge alliances and work together, which fostered a sense of community. It would take a while to reach your goals but you would make friends along the way which became an even greater reason to login than the phat lewtz.

Shit I can still remember what it was like to be standing around in orgrimmar pre AQ, decked out in full tier 2 and purples, and people would walk up to me and inspect me and send me tells about how great my gear is. They saw the fruits of overcoming those challenges and were spurred to take them on themselves.

Then somewhere along the line someone said "I shouldn't have to spend my life on this game to be as awesome as this person that spends 12+ hours a week raiding. I'm cancelling my sub" and blizzard said "whoa whoa wait a minute goyim let me cup your balls a little", and gradually things got easier and easier and easier to the point that we're at now. Where you sit in a queue until the game let's you play, and you saunter down a hallway punctuated by loot pinatas with 4 people you don't even have to talk to and will never see or play with again. Where the only danger and challenge you face is staying awake long enough to dodge the one boss mechanic that will actually wipe you.

Basically casuals ruined MMOs. Casuals and women.

>>383418358

Depending on game. damage and restictions.
Some games let a healer have downtime like outhealing the boss or cooldowns. Then you can focus on dealing some damage untill you have to heal again.

>>383443648
Kill yourself. /vg/ killed /v/ and even boards like /a/ and /sp/ have been effected by that cancerous abomination of a board. /vg/ enablers need to be gassed.

>>383444469

Trinity doesn't need to be "solved". If anything, add Support to it and make them equally valued.

>>383434498
Does Tera really have pasties?

>>383444609
Every role already has party-wide support if you're playing a semi-competent MMO

>>383444683

There should be strict debuff/buff/crowd control class(es) that is required for competent group play. DPS, tanks, and healers should not be doing support (or it should be very limited for solo purposes).

>>383444542
That's the same argument as some people use to defend bad table top rpgs, saying it's not bad as their great group has had lot of fun with it. But the game is still bad, even if the people playing it have fun because they are spending time with friends.
Making game tedious and time consuming to "build a sense of community" is just bullshit. You can find people anywhere, doesn't even need to be an mmo. I already have irc, I don't need a fucking cookie clicker added to it.

Any of you ever play Darkfall? The last MMOs I played were UO and SWG, and the new iterations of Darkfall sound appealing to me. To my understanding Argon is run by amateurs who aren't really developers, where as New Dawn does have actual devs, and is taking its time to release. So is/will DND be worth it?

Mortal Online also seems really good, but it seems to have corruption similar to Aragon.

>>383444834
So basically DPS classes would go from doing damage, managing buffs, and party utility to just doing damage.

>>383443795
>>383444283
Huh I guess it just the person finding the thread, then place the bot

>>383444609
The trinity consists of

>make good things happen class
>make bad things unhappen class
>make bad things happen slower/in a controlled fashion class

You propose adding

>make good things happen faster class

That's not particularly revolutionary.

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>>383444609
>Trinity doesn't need to be "solved"
>but add Support to it

>>383444980

Yes. Why the fuck is a Rogue managing buffs? Party utility, like picking locks an shit? Sure.

>>383410816
I remember Paladin healing being fun as fuck in Mists if you went shit like Selfless Healer and Holy Prism so you actively dealt damage to buff your own healing, and I feel like that'd be a solid approach in a lot of games.

>>383444059
Same

>>383445134
Poisons, pocket sand, kick in the balls, lots of rogueish tricks that can act as debuffs for opponent.

>>383445134
Have you never played an MMO?

>>383424212
pay to win bull shit. you dont even need sader if u dump all ur cash into the game.

>>383441136
and now it gets managed by a bunch of autistic monkeys running a private server

>>383445258

They can have all that shit yet still pale in comparison to the debuffs of a primary support class. Everquest did support class well. Enchanters, Shamans, Bards, all primary support but always welcomed in groups.

>>383439708
>alienated its core fans and has completely lost itself.
It's core fans are still playing you retard. What do you think core means?

>>383425130
f2p osrs.

>>383444469
you are stupid. it isn't "solved" because developers don't know how, it's because dumb shit mmo players don't want it to change.

>>383445541
Even still those supports ether make things die faster (dps) or make party members not die (healers and tanks).

>>383444997

The bot arrived.

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Healer and tank are superfluous and MMOs force you to take them along like those 3rd wheel kids.

>>383445921
True. Sword Art Online proves this

>>383445884
Sadly yes

>>383445686
>osrs
>socialisation instead of autistic grinding
last time I was on varrock was barren but there was an endless list of level 3's at the karamja fishing spot.

>>383444639
No.

>>383404718
what does it say under the fire?

>>383440040
>10 minutes later
>80% health.

fuck no.

>>383416241
That sounds like a really good time. Sometimes I feel like I should try going on one of those really old MMOs that still have small, dedicated playerbases, but I hear they often have their own problems like overly-clingy players who try acting super nice to keep new players from leaving.

Wonder if I should just go back and play Project1999. Everyone is probably max geared though...

>>383445237
That's how Disc Priest plays right now

How about this

>players have shields and health
>there is no direct healing, only abilities that increase the rate of shield recharge
>these abilities charge as you do high enough melee DPS
>shields only recharge if you haven't taken damage recently or if the most powerful shield charge is used
>all players have melee and ranged attacks
>ranged damage is higher DPS than melee
>aggro is based distance to enemy (closer is more aggro) and DPS rate (higher is more obviously)
>the entire party is rewarded with a DPS boost the longer no one's shields are depleted (a reward for good healing that might not be immediately noticeable in pure numbers)

I'm sure there's lots of problems I'm over looking

Both the industry and players have no idea what each other wants, or even what they want.

This is very clear from WoWs progression as a game.

>>383447537
Blizzard wants to keep selling expansions and subs while maximizing profit and blizzdrones want the community that had fuck all to do with the game itself back but was destroyed by QoLshit.
Neither has anything to do with actual gameplay elements, of course.

>>383447707
Blizzard has, time and time again, cited players and feedback as a primary motivator for its change.
Now this is bullshit as money is, always, a factor. However, it is feedback and market research that deems that QoL improvements were a "must."

Many of these were called for by the players as well.
Even then, WoWs gameplay was always shifted towards market trends. Its launch was just "copy EQ as hard as possible, but simpler" to feed off EQs age and product tiredness. Asherons and DoC also fed into its rise.

>>383445237
This was what Chloromancer did in Rift: DPS recycling.
You had to maximize damage to heal the most, but it had to specifically come from life damage or it would barely heal. You lacked the tools and CDs of the other healers, but you could sustain a tank/aoe for basically infinite.

>>383447707
Honestly Legion was the best place to end WoW and launch WoW2.

But they are so fucking lazy and retards continue to throw money at them they are doing a "world reboot" next expansion yet keeping the same old shitty engine.