Will some of the new Indies be like AA studios of the 90s?

>>383359682
no don't get you're hopes up

>>383359729
That was a bit fast, but okay.

>>383359682
Funny. To me indies are getting more generic and bland, not less. I haven't seen a new idea or twist on an old one in years. And no story has been worth a shit from an indie since probably Braid.

Then again I'm not a sucker for faux nostalgia. I'm old enough to have lived during the entire NES run. It takes more than shit graphics to impress me. Same with difficulty. And for that matter I find survival type games boring as fuck so I'm probably not the target audience for all these me too games.

>>383359682
>Will some of the new Indies be like AA studios of the 90s?

Not until they meet a few requirments.
>get more professional
>no more political agendas/commentary
>learn how to actually create good pixel art

Although to be honest it would probably be much easier for me to just say no.

>People praised them as the "new gaming renaissance"

Back then we called them shareware games.

>>383359946
Fair enough if it's not your thing. That said, it's not the only style of game being made. I mean, I would certainly say that Hollow Knight was more fresh than what's popular in the AAA space, which is mainly just more Last of Us style games or CoD Shooters.

I mean, everyone caters to certain styles of games when there are tried and trued practices. But I do feel a true sense of "game" in these latest indies rather than what I've been getting out of the latest AAA buzz.

>>383360220
How old are you

>>383360148
>learn how to actually create good pixel art
That's going to be awhile, anon. And that usually takes more than 3 - 4 guys sharing an apartment.

>>383360294
Older than you, I'm sure.

>>383360220
>I would certainly say that Hollow Knight was more fresh than what's popular in the AAA space

>>383360220
Hollow Knight is derivative and uncreative as fuck, it's the games biggest flaw. It's got great presentation and execution but it's absolutely boring if you've played too many videogames in the past.

>>383360539
Ah, I don't know. My only problem with it is that the upgrades early on aren't given fast enough and the charm system isn't a good replacement for standard powerups. Otherwise I think it was superb. I mean, you can't expect indies to have the most completely fresh game that's ever existed with brand spanking new mechanics that've never been seen before and have a game that has any sort of length or quality. There is always going to be some rehash and reused concepts. I mean, even Bloodborne (everyone's star child apprently) is full of reused ideas from games like Ninja Gaiden, Devil May Cry, it's own legacy of Dark Souls. I mean I like Bloodborne too, but it's not the star people make it out to be either.

So idk, I'm not too upset with what's being given there. It's a hell of a lot more impressive coming from extremely limited budgets of indies than what's pumped out by multi-million (or billion) dollar studios that have the sky's limit of resources, but refuse to do anything with it.

>>383359682
No. You should keep track of the actual single A and AA studios. Yes, they still exist, and i would say most good stuff is coming from them.
I mean, Red Project CD and the witcher 1 started pretty small but chokeful of love and effort. Look where they are now.
The guys who made the metro series also started rather small, even if backed up by a larger publisher.
Croteam if you like serious sam style.
I would go as far as say that Atlus and Platinum are AA devs, and they got some really big hits this year.

>>383361024
From Software is AA right?

>>383360895
Bloodborne does plenty of new things and completely seperates itself from those games.

Hollow Knight is boring because every boss in the game has been straight up stolen from different 2D games, they feel so similar to other games it's almost plagiarism. Not to mention the core gameplay is so derivative and simple that anyone could have made it. Look at say, La-mulana, for example, that games core gameplay is very unlike any other game. Hollow Knight's gameplay is very simple, it feels like something out of a newgrounds flash game because it's so "standard." It's kinda hard to explain, but the gameplay feels like its been done hundreds of times.

It's not that bad of a thing for new players, but it's definitely boring if you like creative games. There are still way more fun games in the genre.

>>383361204
Yeah I didn't mention La-mulana but that's a good example too. I mean, that's extremely indie too.

Bloodborne doesn't really differentiate anything as far as I'm concerned. It's the same style of dodge-attack repitition we've seen in Souls Dex runs and Ninja Gaiden before it. The only thing that's maybe arguably different was the insight system, but even that's very easy to quantify as it's underutilized and only really is basically a number counter that turns basic additions on/off in the game. I really think the only appeal it has for most people is it's lore. Because the people that played it never actually read books or played older games to realize where it was getting it's story from. So, no I wouldn't even argue that's new either. And the health regen on attack thing is literally any vampiric weapon that you've ever used in a game before. I mean, if we're being frank Monster Hunter does what Bloodborne does with bosses far better and more interestingly regarding weakpoints and breaks and just overall design.

And the boss fights themselves are unique in Hollow Knight. Oh sure, a couple feel samey compared to some Metroid game, but shit like Lost Kin, False Knight are pretty solid. I mean, if they were to try something "unique" as you call it, then it would probably result in a bad boss that doesn't work properly or isn't balanced well because this game basically took that difficulty as far as it would go with Dream bosses go. Oh and that Dream Nail is fairly unique and the health/magic system. I don't see other games doing that.

The best indie games are average at best. If cave story was released in the 16 bit era it would have faded into obscurity. The only reason people care about it at all is because people have 2 standards, one for real games and one for indies.

And that's the state of some of the best indies. Braid makes the shovel ware games on the SNES look good.

I just don't see indie devs having a long run. Sure, Playerunkown's Battleground is extremely popular now, but it'll be forgotten loooooong before its development reaches the finish state, as it always happens with these games. It's a meme game that cashes in on quick and hard but gets forgotten in the long run and have no future.

Indie pixel platformers are sterile. Most of them sell on visuals alone but the gameplay is always very samey and bland. Just today I saw that there's yet another indie pixel metroidvania on Steam that looks like it is heavily, uh, "inspired" by Souls, right down to the UI.
Again, nothing long term here. All the pixel games blur into one homogenized blob. There's nothing that stands out and so company names are not burned into the memories of the players like they were during the NES era.

>>383361974
Play La-mulana

>>383361162
>Dark Souls
>AA game
>Charge AAA price
LOL

>>383359682
All this Hollow Knight dicksucking has made me more and more reticent to even pirate that game.
Only a couple games overhyped by /v/ ended being actually good.

>>383359682
>arguing about indie games
>on /v/
Half this board still uses indie as a synonym for 8 bit transsexualism simulator
But yes, there's been plenty of good indie games coming out, ez funding and distribution through patreon/kickstarter/whatnot and Steam/GoG/whatnot helping a lot

>>383360539
Old man here. I've played a lot of Metroid clones and really enjoy them and had a lot of fun with Hollow Knight. I get that you faggots don't like it and that's fine but don't tell me it's boring if you've played a lot of video games before.

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>>383362558
Sounds about right to me.

>>383362279
>so company names are not burned into the memories of the players like they were during the NES era.
That may be an unfair expectation though, honestly. I mean, NES era was filled with shit that had never existed before, sure. But it also had access to the untapped idea bank of having more resources than ever in a market that was lacking in resources and didn't have any standards prior to that. The conditions that made NES work don't exist anymore.

Standards may be lacking on Steam but they exist everywhere else, and in fact are so prevalent that it's impossible to get away with something new without some semblance of the old. I mean, look at La Mulana, which isn't completely fresh either. It has a lot of new systems in it, but is seen by most as a "hard for no reason" game. Even though I love it, I don't disagree with that to some degree. Some bosses aren't fully realized or balanced. But despite it being an excellent and fresh game, people just cast it aside.

While the second game is certainly in development, developers are only working on a second game out of pure passion for it. I mean, they definitely didn't make enough money to make the second game on profit and playerbase alone, being forced instead to depend on kickstarter and other outlets to raise funds. And they still operate on junk food and crunch times in the development of the game.

I want the NES days too, but I just don't think enough new ideas are possible for good gameplay scenarios in the genres people love for it to be like that. At this point it's more like we need the best combinations and configurations of gameplay mechanics, genres and possibly new things given they can compliment the vision the game is trying to produce.

>>383362558
Well they certainty feel AA with those shit hitboxes.

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>>383362620
>it's popular so it sucks
When will this meme die?

>>383362810
word. I felt that it was the best metroidvania I've played in years. I don't understand why you can't just have a reasonable amount of new features. Why must it literally be this impossible standard of "FRESH NEW IDEAS" that literally no game has ever provided since NES days?

>>383362918
Dude, that shit feels A with those shitboxes. Some of them are so fucking bad that you literally get pulled into them like a fucking vacuum cleaner. Fucking Monster Hunter Freedom Unite has better hitboxes in some cases. And that shit was on a PSP for god's sake.

>>383363053
>Why do games have to be creative? They're fine being focus-group tested garbage.
nice one man

>>383362909
You are witnessing the rise of new studios becoming A or AA but that doesn't happen with a unique game necessarily and since there's no definitive line to officially say a dev has gone from indie to A , AA, or even AAA following a studio and waiting for that moment is like trying to watch water boil or grass grow.

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>>383363184
Nice putting words in my mouth. All I said is that you should have realistic standards fucker.

>>383363336
Fair enough. Nice way of putting it.

>>383362391
Kid. I have played every metroid, every castlevania, as well as countless other metroidvanias made by real companies. Many of these games I have played multiple times. And yet I still hunger for more games like them.

La-mulana is so boring and poorly made I could only play for about 5 minutes before getting too bored to continue. I would rather replay CotM for the 12th fucking time than go through that snooze-fest. Hell I would rather replay the worst metroid or the worst castlevania than play just about any indie metroidvania. That's how shitty their games are.

The same is true for all other genres indies make their boring games in. The best touhou game is worst than the worst cave game.

Indie games are basically student films. Comparing them to the real stuff is a joke.

The only reason anyone takes them seriously is because they are not aware there are better alternatives.

>>383363345
>My standards should be revolved around what the average developer can do.
"No."

>>383363135
So why do those games keep getting such high reviews when they are so obviously broken? It is pretty amazing the shit that reviewers will let slide for some games while scorn other games for the very same things.

>>383363053
What new idea did Hollow Knight have?

The game was so barren and featurless I found it running out of interesting things by the 3 hour mark. 6 hours in I completly lost the ability to play it.

>>383363457
Show me a better Factorio
Beware, your response may forever destroy your anonymous ecred

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>>383363457
>CotM is better than La-mulana
Went too far, it seemed like entirely realistic bait had you not completely thrown out any type of reasonable thought out the window.

>>383363184
Quit acting retarded
The best games are those that have solid foundations and then a bunch of new features, and don't try to create a new genre on their own
It's the same for many things humanity does, we compound ideas on top of each other and refine them with further iterations

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>>383363587
>The best games are those that have solid foundations and then a bunch of new features
But Hollow Knight only did the first thing though.

The best games are the games that do entirely new and creative things, though, like Majora's Mask or Killer7

>>383363468
>Expecting the impossible
>Still disappointed when it doesn't happen
You don't even play video games

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>>383363740
I'm not expecting the impossible, I'm expecting the things that games from the early 2000's could do and better, because games are now technically superior and easier to make than ever.

You're just making an excuse for developers to be lazy.

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>>383363457
>Hell I would rather replay the worst metroid or the worst castlevania than play just about any indie metroidvania
>literally will play worst games instead of indie despite quality
So basically you're admitting that you just hate indie because of the name attached to it. You just have it ingrained that indie is shit because you browse /v/ too much. Die a slow death, faggot.

>>383363529
Isn't that just a management game? I don't play those so I can't tell you what the good ones are. Every genre that I do know, the indie games are abysmal compared to the real games.

Like I said indie games are the equivalent of student projects.

>>383363547
Nice counter arguement there.

>>383363863
What I am saying is that the indie games that do exist are that bad. They can't even compete with the worst from the real companies.

It's like comparing student films to films made by real directors. The worst thing from the real director is going to be better than the students best work.

>>383364210
I disagree with the principle but I agree that 99.9% of indie games have literally no substance and are as deep as a puddle. That being said, "real companies" have done much worse. I'd rather watch a student art film over a focus-group tested piece of shit film, but I'd prefer to watch neither overall unless it was that good.

>>383364073
Maybe don't make blanket statements about all indie games if you don't know some of the best ones or don't even play all the genres

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>indie 2D puzzle game
>on kickstarter with a goal of $5000
>"if we reach $6000 we'll add VR support!!"

Also CD Projekt Red doesn't really count as they have had significant financial support from the Polish goverment to put Poland on the map with regards to IT.

The indies will rarely make enough after 3-4 games to go 3D, and if they do they usually fuck up bad time because they underestimate how much extra work goes into renedering and programming that extra dimension.

If they do succeed however, they immediately get bought out by the big sharks, see Arkane studios, Id, etc.

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>>383363502
Believe it or not but other then those few bugged hit boxes it actually has really good lore, gameplay.
And to answer your second question which is coming, I dont know why I like jumping around, dodging, hitting, running away, parrying, backstabbing. but its just so fun.

>>383361974
Let's not go overboard, Cave Story is alright but got most of its popularity for being a one man job at a time when competent indie games weren't as common, it's nowhere near the quality of some games you can find nowadays.

>>383364210
>It's like comparing student films to films made by real directors. The worst thing from the real director is going to be better than the students best work.
As someone in the film industry, this is fucking dogshit reasoning.

Students and indie filmmakers have created movies that shit on quite a few hollywood productions. "Lights Out" is a 3 minute short that is better quality horror than most big-screen shit. "ABE" tackled the story of a rogue robot better than a lot of big-budget shit in a handful of minutes. Hollywood can't seem to grasp how to make a decent Lovecraft movie yet several indie filmmakers made quality short films about it. Then there's Kung Fury.

Your opinion is full of shit and stems from ignorance. Experience more indie productions (games and movies both). You are speaking without knowing what's out there.

>>383363457
Nice double standards

>>383364347
I doubt there is a single person on this board that plays all genres, at least plays them all competently.

>>383364341
>I'd rather watch a student art film over a focus-group tested piece of shit film, but I'd prefer to watch neither overall unless it was that good.

And how often do you watch such student art films? Hell how often does anyone? There's a reason that none of those art films appear in theatres, dvd stores, or even virtual downloads.

Like the best indie shmup I know of is touhou 6. And that SUCKS compared to the worst cave shmups. I can't even think of an indie-platformer that's worth playing compared to real ones. Like there's zero.

>>383365050
Yes, but those people are fair enough to preamble their posts with "of the games and genres that I have played, ..." and don't claim things like "The same is true for all other genres indies make their boring games in.".

>>383364806
Again why do you think these shitty indie movies are never put up for sale? No one likes that crap.

>>383365148
It's a safe bet that if they can't even handle a simple genre like shmups or platformers than when it comes to the more complex genres like managment games it would be even worst.

It would be like expecting a group that can't even do a decent limerick could write epic poetry

>>383365257
>It's a safe bet that everyone is the same
cool

>>383365050
What's a "real platformer" then?

>>383365156
Ok

The charm system is trash, the enemies look too "clean" as in they have very little detail differentiating eachother. The magic attacks suck, early game is too bland in color

>>383363502
He's just bullshitting about the hitbox.

>literal double standards thread
>like actually two sets of standards held by one person

>>383365257
You are wrong and you have invalidated your opinions for this thread because you make big claims and can't back them up
Good luck next time

They already are.
Frictional games, Keen software, Wube, Coolmath, Robert Space Industries, Red Barrels and hundreds of others. Indie Renessaince has already happened a good while ago, and dozens if not hundreds of studios either replaced the former AA strata, or became an AA strata. I really don't know how the fuck did you people miss that happening, it's not more than five years since this has been going on.

>>383364073
Dear god you are an ignorant fucking retard.

>>383364425
>Also CD Projekt Red doesn't really count as they have had significant financial support from the Polish goverment to put Poland on the map with regards to IT.
Why the fuck are so many of you insisting on talking shit about shit you clearly don't know ANYTHING about?
CDPR only recieved governmental INVESTMENT (which is not the same as aid) on TW3. The thing that put CDPR on the map is the fact that CDPR started as a daughter company of CD Project: one of the biggest publishers and distributors of digital goods in eastern europe in the 90's. They were a massive fucking company supplying entirety of polish market with movies, games and music, one of the first distributors of CD's in the country (it's where their name comes from). That is where they gained their capital.

CDPR has been a pet project of the CDP founders and Witcher was co-published by CDP. Over time, as CDP diminished due to digital distribution going on-line, CDPR became the most profitable and important part of the company and eventually it's only main focus, while the rest of what once was CDP, a massive corporation, has eventually shrunk and basically transformed into GoG.

But it was digital goods and CD distribution that put CDP and their subdivision CDPR on the fucking map.

>>383364210
Did you try Lecarde Chronicle 1&2 ?

>>383365156
Just because they're not aired in cinemas worldwide (which is a specific system) does not mean they aren't good or they didn't kick careers into overdrive.

Again I'll mention Lights Out. The creator was pretty much destitute at the time he made it, using a dolly made out of PVC pipes and a light he bought from IKEA. Hollywood execs liked it and paid him millions to direct it. Budget was about 5 million, grossed 128 million and launched his career. He's now going to be one of your "real directors".

Again, you speak from ignorance and are talking out of your ass.

>>383365257
This is absolutely hillarious.
"I never play those games, I know nothing about actual creative process, I don't even realize that competency might differ from studio to studio, but I can say with absolute certainity that those games are trash. Because I'm actually THAT ABSOLUTELY brilliant."

JESUS KID, do you even read what you are writing? Is this a joke of some sort. What the fuck is wrong with you?

>>383360148
The new rise of indie Publishers like Devolver, Team 17, Raw Fury and Anapurina will probably help professionalize studios. Anapurina in particular since they are a branch of a film studio and they have a huge eye for polish. That will help indies reach the next stage which is adding the money and polish needed. You also have major publishers starting to dip their toes in like Bandai Namco and platform holders investing in titles (Though Sony has dropped their indie program and are only investing in VR)

>>383359682
90s is different then before. You just can't compare shit that happened two decades ago and expect the same thing to happen. Rise of Sony, death of Sega console business and using CDs for the first time shaped those times. It also helped that developing games was new and exciting before rather then the hellish crunch hours of today

I personally would have different expectations on what to expect if I were you

They already have.

No. AA games actually put effort into their visuals.

>look up this Odallus game
>it intentionally looks like an early NES game

barf

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>>383366547
indie game developers put effort into their games, but only the Japanese ones.

>>383367325
>Cherry picking at it's finest
Why do I even bother coming here?

>>383365425
No he isn't. I've seen webms. They all have awful hitboxes.

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>>383367325
Maybe don't have such shit tastes.
A lot of doujin games are pure cashgrabs just like indies, but they sell for a lot fucking more.

>>383368046

I call bullshit my friend.

Even if they were bads it's nothing near MHFU.

>>383369178
>Pitting one and two man amateur teams against fully staffed studios with 30+ members that have been in the game for over 20 years
Really nigger? Larian being considered "indie" is laughable.

Every critique of Hollow Knight boils down to

>yes yes it's a good game with solid art and gameplay but where are the completely new mechanics? new experimental stuff is what makes a game good, not gameplay

>>383370604
>>383369178

Furi is by a large team too
'indie" my foot

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>>383367325

>>383369251
One second let me try and find that bloodborne webm.

>>383359682
I refunded Odallus a few days ago. It was a bad game with horrible music and really amazing pixel art. A shame, really.

>>383369251
>>383371926
I can't find it but there are tons of webms of how bad those hitboxes are across all games. You are bound to see it eventually.

>>383359682
>didn't used

>>383359682
Odallus is simply great, despite the severe bugs.

I wonder what people find in Hollow Knight. My main problem with is is that all gameplay is stretched thin as fuck, everything happens several times and continues for a very long time. The first fucking stage is a perfect example: it goes on and on and on.

>>383372190
It's one of the best games that's come out in years. What was you problem with it?

Also, nobody but tumblerinas care about "pixel-art". Odallus is good because of how well paced it is, how well it controls and how well-realized the difficulty curve is in the game.

Not unless people are going to be willing to pay $60 for games like Hollow Knight, AA games still need a budget. The game didn't even do very well at $15 despite being worth way more than that.

>>383373112
Pacing was ok. Bosses could be killed on your first try without much effort. The subweapons system was annoying. Most enemies were ok. My favorite level was the frozen mountain, even with the ninja gaiden 2 snow fucking my shit up.

>>383364806
>Then there's Kung Fury.
Are you saying that it's good or bad? Because Kung Fury was just fucking bad. A one note joke that stretched on way too long. Of course, I also hate the, "Totally 80s!" wave going on by people who clearly grew up after the 80s and only heard stories about it; it's fucking Kafkaesque how simply off, even for parody, so many of these 80s wannabes are.

>>383373264
Steamspy is claiming they sold 423.000 copies in the first four-ish months after release. If every copy was sold for average 10 bucks (some were for more, but whatever), they earned well over 4 million. Let's say they lost half of that to steam and taxes, they still earned around 2 million in just first 4 months.

Game will also be released on consoles soon, where they will probably double that number.

It made a lot of money for just 3 guys working on it from Kickstarter money (so pure profit) and I'm sure they are very happy with it. I'm not sure which indie game sold that well recently unless really autistic ones like Undertale.

>>383373401
They sold about 150k before the sale, which is 1.5 Million for them after Steam and before taxes. That's not a disaster, but that's what I meant by "didn't even do very well at $15". It's nice that they sold so many copies during the sale though, that's should about double their revenue to 3 mil before taxes.

>>383373401
>from Kickstarter money (so pure profit)
They got some funding from Indiefund that they have to pay back as well.

>>383359682
Not quite following what you consider that type of game. To help me understand what are your top 10 games that you consider to fall under this description?

>>383359682
all the aaa developers were indie developers once

its just that people didnt call them indies back then, /v/s small mind cant comprehend this simple fact