We can all agree on this, right?

Is this loss?

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Wrong, here's the best.

Depends. Do the stars represent shit to collect or exits?

If the former then yes, otherwise bottom right is best.

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I guess. I prefer pic related tho.

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>>383072995
MGS4 / MGS2-3
MGS1 / MGSV

>>383073157
Baby's first doom WAD.

>>383072995
Replace best with multiple z levels, and it'll be good.

The best levels are those that were obviously built to be a realistic, believable environment that is then merely tweaked slightly to fit the players' needs as a level.

>top left
FFXIII
>top right
Persona 3 & 4, Tales of
>bottom left
DDS 1 & 2, Nocturne
>bottom right
Persona 5

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>>383073157
bitch please

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>>383072995

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>>383073587
let me show you power

COD Metro

Stalker Far Cry 3 onward

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>>383073392
Wow it really is like that.

Depends on item and enemy placements, you can't judge it purely on the construction of the level. A straight corridor could be good if it paces you well with interesting encounters, puzzles, or platforming. "Best" could be shit because that could potentially just have arbitrary detours that have nothing worth exploring.

>>383073392
MGS1 was the most linear of them all. The entire game is a straight path from room to room, with sometimes an elevator where you need to go down and get a key to go to the next linear room.

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Get on my level of hell

>>383074145
Im actually surprised elder scrolls threw that away. That was pretty revolutionary as a z level design.

>>383074240
It turns out random dungeons with random loot and the same rooms over and over get really boring.

Oh wait, I mean everyone's favorite part of Bloodborne was the Chalice Dungeons right?

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Could YHVH Universe be considered babby-tier?

>>383074437
It's just tedious like most of Strange Journey.

>>383074240
>Im actually surprised elder scrolls threw that away
The map is pretty much useless but it adds to the fun of getting lost

>>383074393
>implying that is a bad thing
Every TES did the same thing but a smaller scale.

>>383074437
Got that was beyond annoying

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>>383073708
the fuck?

>>383074585
>Every TES did the same thing but a smaller scale.

No, the other games had hand-designed dungeons.

>>383072995
What are the black rectangles supposed to be?

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>>383073157
Fucking casuals

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You are like a little babby.
Watch THIS

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Enjoy being lost forever.

>>383072995
Do you still play the first Diablo?

>>383074692
Maybe Morrowind, but it more or less the same. Oblivion is a blasphemy copy and paste and the reward are fucking shit.

>>383074692
which were all about as interesting as randomly generated dungeons

>>383073157
>>383074771
>>383074873
Mazes are just complex versions of number 1 with more backtracking.

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Might and Magic 6 had some of the comfiest dungeons.

>>383074873
where do you start

>>383073517
>P5 is open world
Are you unfunctionally retarded?

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>>383073157
Thanks autism.

>>383075525
I love this. I'm surprised nobody has done a version where there are empty compartments that form Loss.

>>383075525

I was expecting this to leave parts of the maze untouched to spell out "FUCK YOU" or something.

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>>383073708
NIGGER

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>>383074771
>2 solutions
What mainstream casualized troglodyte faggotry is this?

>>383076328
>dungeon design literally ruined by the constraints of square boundaries

nope

>>383077189
This. Wizardry was shit because of this.

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>>383075301

>>383075525
If I squint my eyes at the end it almost looks like loss.

>>383073157
>a regular maze
>not a warp maze

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>these extra massive ridiculous maps
Please don't stop

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>>383072995
lol casual

>>383082527
>buy_the_strategy_guide_goy.png

>>383082527
>Not mindlessly flailing at the walls every time you enter a new room

>>383082527
Don't forget to make that item essential for the true ending.

>>383083356

>regular weapons can't break the wall
>only explosives
>explosives are limited

now what

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>>383072995
Nope

>>383082527
That would be fine in a game like Dark Souls.

>>383084287
People overstate this sector's difficulty.

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>>383083356

>mfw humping all the walls

>>383084302
that wouldn't be fine in any game
old games did it because they wanted to sell guides
new games do it because old games did it

>>383073387
psychonauts

>>383084648
Eridanus is difficult
Grus is annoying and Horologium is just bullshit

>>383084138
Cheat Engine

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>All these babby tier dungeons
>MFW most people posting on this thread wouldn't exit Wizardry IV's first room

>>383084648
It's the game's first major difficulty jump, of course people are gonna find it memorable. Let's not forget Oroboros' bullshit ailments, either.

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>>383084287
You are like baby.

Watch this.

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>>383080404
Look up "The World's Largest Dungeon", a 3rd edition D&D adventure. To fully display the map you need to use it as wallpaper. I can't find a high resolution image of the full map, but it's in PDF form somewhere.

>>383073919
MGS2 was literally just linear hallways to pods which were essentially just linear hallways inside.

>>383088320
Yeah, but at least you could go two different directions instead of just one.

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>>383087767
>tfw in all three of my playthroughs Ouroboros's Disaster Cycle always whiffed or inflicted some weak shit like poison.

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>>383075525
>No swastica

>>383087252
wizardry 4 was bullshit levels of bad design

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Are there ANY modern games where you can get lost in a comfy dungeon? I'm talking 2010 and onwards. Why are dungeons so fucking shit these days?

>>383088203
That's not that bad if you think on it.
>The "Center" is a cuboid room suspended in the center of a larger cuboid room
>North South East and West are the walls of the outer Cube while Top and Bottom are its roof and floor, all are a "floor" for all intents and purposes that you can walk on
>Double is the only one that can really screw with you since its indicators are screwed up, T should be bottom left, B should be top left, and C should fill one of the other slots
Double is more or less being in the cube room and the cube within the cube simultaneously, but not exactly.
And in addition, the Tesseracts naturally wrap. If you continue in a direction and keep using Switches indefinitely, you will pass through the Center and 2 other rooms of each Tesseract (sans Double) indefinitely.

>>383089258
legend of grimrock. just one big comfy dungeon you can wander for hours.

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>>383088251
>tfw your a lazy GM and instead of using maps you crudely doodle some walls and usually have 2 branching paths and a hub area
>enemies are usually squiggles colored the same as walls
>you keep using underpowered prebuilt enemies so your players destroy them instantly and your only solution is to have them fight more of them at once
>Players keep asking about what happened to various NPCS but you forgot they exist so you say they're busy doing something

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I still wanna make this game, but I've been led down a path of developing-tangents.

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>>383073157
nigger

>>383073157
I know they were fairly simple but I always liked the Pyramid and Sphinx mazes in Ragnarok Online.

>>383075159
Don't you mean when?

>>383073708
>>383076328
>showing off your autistic DM's campaign for friday night in a thread about good level design in video games

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>>383089523

>>383089523
Nebraska propaganda pretending mice, or anyone at all, actually likes corn?

>>383090158
>he hasnt played one of the best dungeon crawlers

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i want to make maps now, how and where do i get started?
i want to make a game that involves dungeon crawling

>>383072995
I fucking love Dangerous Dave

>>383090747
>where do I get started
Just start doodling.
For a game, go do a billion tutorials.

>>383090524
corn's great. just don't boil it like a retard

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best maze

>>383090524
>corn is bad
holy shit i've never said this to anyone before but eat a fucking bullet.

>>383072995
The best one is the top right.

>>383090158
with how shitty video game level design has become over the years, tabletop map design is a god send

>>383072995
Except Tutorial designs should be like the top left, then afterworlds it should be like

>>383073517
Except FF13 is like the top right dude. The first two chapters are top left, but the rest up till chapter nine is like top right. Then it's more of an open space with things to do.

>>383088251
In this life and the next I shall call you my nigga
>>383088203
That's radical as well

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map thread?

>>383089523
Are you kidding me?
Why would someone make this.

>>383089438
>He can't recall every NPC in his 600+ session campaign
I can honestly let the rest slide.
>>383089523
>Just saw the goat
Oh, fuck.

making incomprehensible mazes is good map design: the thread

>>383093070
More choices means it better!

>>383093579
This game is the shit. I wish more people were into it these days.

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It was fun, but a bit too linear sometimes.
that infinite bomb jumping challenge can go fuck itself

>>383089440
This would benefit a lot from variable size shapes, starting the selection from the biggest ones.

>>383075525
all you need to do with this, is when a path reaches a dead end, it changes to blue and goes in reverse until it hits a cross roads and stops.

There by leaving the longest path (or path to the exit).

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>>383076328
i won't tell, but i know what you've done

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>>383074873
bravo

>>383073708
What game?

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Look at this maze, imagine doing this without a map
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejt0jsg8-gA

>>383093070
>incomprehensible

Depends on the genre. Top left is the best for beat em ups, top right is the best for FPS.

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>>383087252
>>383089086

>>383089086
Wizardry IV was a brilliant joke. You either laugh with the devs or they laugh at you.

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>>383096245
my strategy for the earlier mazes was to always hug the right wall, and you'll get there eventually. mfw i spent 3 hours running in the dark before i figured out that it looped back and I was running in circles.

>>383074993
Morrowind is just as bad with the copy paste dungeons outside of handful of quest dungeons.

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>>383074437
No. I found myself wandering around a lot and even charting shit on pen and paper.
Was kind of annoying in the final stretch cause literal hordes of Metatron were a normal encounter.

>>383089086
t. mad cuz bad

>>383072995
The optimal map would be a straight line to the objective with tons of optional side mazes to get lost in

>>383097845
Breath of the wild?

>>383097908
my nigga

>>383087252
>Wizardry IV
Tell me where to get it and I will beat it.

>>383089843
lel

>>383074771
>copy paste this into paint
>use fill tool
>mfw

Holy shit, you got me.

>>383098130
Abandonware. I hope you have 3 to 4 months of spare time, anon.

>>383073392
If anything it's
MGS2 / MGS1
MGS4 and MGS3 / MGSV

Anyone that claims MGS1 is nonlinear is retarded.

>>383072995
What the fuck is best supposed to be? Pitfalls or random objects blocking straight path to star

>>383098130
>I will beat it.
You are like little baby. You won't get far after you have to spend a while learning the interface.

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>>383098379

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>>383074873

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>It's a warp maze
>warps to other warps
>warp you get off at also warps some where else
>an initial warp is a required progression warp
>only one way into that room

>>383084302
>souls fans actually believe this is a good thing

>>383095729
It's not loss.

>>383098379
Something like the recent Prey game where you have a place you want to go and a multitude of ways to reach that place.

If you wanted to get into a locked office you could use the security station to find the name on the door and search their body for the key. Sometimes the ceiling was broken open and you could platform your way in. Strength characters might be able to move a heavy object blocking a broken window or you could do similar with explosives you found in the level. Alien characters could use the mimic transformation to crawl through tiny cracks. Or you know a lot of rooms were only locked from the outside so you could carefully angle the otherwise useless nerf gun to rebound off the back wall and unlock the door. Sometimes remote hacking would do it.

>open in paint
>select paint bucket
>fill a wall pixel

>>383074145
>those inaccessible rooms
That shit is why I always get stuck in dungeons, I can't find the goal because it probably spawned in one those rooms

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>>383099467
PLEASE NO NOT AGAIN NO NO NO NO

>>383096245
Looks pretty sweet. What other games have the best mazes, preferable games that aren't as shitty as TW2

>>383098891
is there anyone out there who honestly enjoys warp mazes or at least can find a game design based reason for there inclusion, or do they literally exist to pad game time by 20 hours.

>>383100519
Pokemon RBY?

>>383100519
If you can mark them ingame like in Etrian they can actually be kinda fun. It's when you have to autisticly remember it all from start to finish.

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>>383092234

>>383100519
They were okay in Wiz IV, but only retrospectively. Killing time on a shitty computer in 2000, trying to get through that game was a spine-crushing experience. But after looking back at it I can confirm that game is the essence of never ever giving one singular fuck and is simultaneously the best and the worst Wizardry game.

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Try beating this game without a guide.

>>383099310
>Prey
That actually sounds pretty cool. IIRC games like Deus ex and Bloodlines played like that too correct? Maybe next paycheck ill check it out

>>383100519
Any maze of any kind is garbage. It's why I dont understand the autism over dungeon crawlers. Double the fact all their dungeons are just recolored hallways

>>383101371
nu-prey is casual garbage, i would not recommend it at all

>>383101718
Don't listen to this fag. nu-Prey is as close as gaming has gotten to replicating Thief and SS. Pathetic, but that's all we have for now.

>>383101172
I found my way to all the effects all on my own, but I never would have thought that you had to fucking drop them in the hub to actually reach the ending had I not looked it up.

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>>383101172
Try this, nerd

>>383101843
Listen to both of these people. Prey is pretty good when it comes to the exploration and having puzzles with multiple solutions. But there's also nothing for enemy variety, the combat is kind of shitty, and the story is god awful.

>>383102583
>Prey is pretty good when it comes to the exploration and having puzzles with multiple solutions
yeah, the problem is the puzzles are so easy it's like they aren't even there

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>all these casual baby maps

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Bigger ain't better. A good map memorable, aesthetic, intricate and contains at least a good amount of optional content.

It ain't just about being a Gordian Knot.

>>383102857
That's kind of the problem with that sort of design. If the lock on your door can be opened with any sort of key then it's a shitty lock. And it is disappointing once you get morph and realize every other skill you bought and gimmick you found is totally worthless now. But the more difficult they want to make it the fewer alternate paths they can take and if they want to give you a real choice or an illusion of choice picking your skills they can't even have something like a 2-step lock like needing max strength to force open a door and then hack the generator to provide power to the area.

>>383072995

What's an example of "best"?

>>383098307
what is it

>>383101278
Absolutely beautiful.

>>383100519
Wild Arms 2 had a really simple warp maze when the villains tried to trap you in a fold in spacetime

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>>383104975
That inadvertently made for a good screen cap when it happened.

>>383096442
Yeeep this spells out everything I hate about that game. It's literally hard mode if hard mode was a baby mode and decided to upgrade itself to hard mode cause it didn't think it was hard to begin with.

>>383100519
There was a good one in Blood and Wine DLC for Witcher 3.

There was environment hints as to which direction is the right way.

Same with the forest in OOT. Good warp mazes have some small audio/visual cue to the correct path.

>>383095239

nice

you're cool

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>>383105279
wew I crapped the same shot

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>>383097908
>Breath of the wild

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>>383073157
>>383073587
>>383073708
>>383074771
>>383076958
You're smalltime.

>>383103582
Thief 2.

>>383106192
that looks like someone used the one fractal argument in a procedural generation

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arrows are one way only - you can't go back
map warps on edges (so when going east from [19,1] you'll end up on [0,1]

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>>383074437
The areas are needlessly expansive and take ages to walk through. It'd be a good dungeon if it was squashed down a bit.

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Real best map

Are you people masochists or am I missing something?

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>>383098375
Except that chart doesn't refer to linear plot progression, it refers to map design. As in, there were multiple ways to traverse the rooms of mgs1 (entering Shadow Moses, for instance) where mgs4 had a singular path per segment and mgs2/3 often had you backtrack multiple times through the same area in different ways.

That last guy nailed it, dude.

>>383106395
Don't forget that you have three different objectives on this level: reach a pentagram, reach the stairs and map out the floor to get that goddamn key to the penultimate riddle (if you can call that a key)

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>>383073157
>>383073587
>>383074771
>>383076958
>>383075301
>>383089523

>>383106634
>extremely long, windey, and wide
>suddenly gets extremely skinny
>even if you do make it through, half-way into it you just automatically lose
>level 4 doesn't even exist
Fucking bullshit

>>383090747
Doombuilder 2

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>>383106649
you tell me

>>383074875
This didn't get as many replies as it deserves, so I feel like that monstrosity deserves explanation.

>Dots at intersections are spinners that point you in random directions.
>Every hallway is identical, you can't tell which way you've been spun by looking.
>There's no animation or sound effect for spinners, you have to figure out they exist on your own.
>The map loops, so there's no edge to navigate by.
>Most of the doors are fake and exist solely to keep you from navigating via landmark.
>There are invisible teleporters on the map specifically to keep you from accidentally wandering to the exit.

>This is a fairly forgiving level by Wizardry 4's standards.

>>383107020
>casual who couldn't make it detected

>>383094157
tfw stuck on Ridley in Axiel Edition
I just wanted to see Tourian and quit...

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>>383072995
>finding the key before finding the door

Amateur hour in here.

>>383092418
>>383092432
What am I supposed to be seeing?

>>383072995
are there any good dungeon games on PS2? already got Nightmare of Druaga and both Gauntlet games on deck.

>>383107089
I'm glad I'm not forced to play it.

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>>383096442
If that's not "artificial difficulty" then nothing is. Jesu Christo.

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damn....

>>383107089

Jesus

>>383107259
It's goatse in maze form.

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>>383107089
What force of evil designed this?

>>383072995
No. Some games are better suited to some things than others, and restricting variety is a fool's errand. There are exceptional examples of each of those out there, and it's best to appreciate each for what it is.

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>>383089523
>It's even got the ring

>>383107089
Every time I read about the early Wizardry games I have to wonder what compelled the devs to make them like that and why people actually enjoyed playing them back then. Just sounds like a bunch of bullshit.

>>383107867
80s PC gaming.

>>383107914
The only games I know that have benefited from corridor design are rail shooters.

That said, I'll take corridor levels over open world anyday.

>>383090747
a video game? If so I suggest you gamemaker (which is free and easy to learn)

If you're going this route, first look up tutorials about arrays (both 1d and 2d), then ds_lists and ds_maps. Once you understand how these work you need to understand how to fill them with data. This is where the "for" loop comes in, read it up. Then, learn how events work (especially create, step and draw) so you can draw and see your map, move character, etc.

you can make it anon

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The top right is the best design.

Having alternate pathways and key items between rooms is great for teaching the player how to manage resources like time, space and health.

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>>383107729
Looks like skyrim. Is that skyrim? Fucking skyrim.

Here's some random thing from oblivion.

>>383107813
>>383107972
Holy fuck now I see it
Subtle
If nu-/v/ wasn't just loss edits, we'd have more shit like this

>>383073327
Love picking up useless foliage and rocks. me love video game

>>383107729
>skyrim was in the filename
sorry

>>383108332
What is "loss" that everyone keeps talking about?

>>383107997
1. There was very little else available at the time.
2. Part of the culture of the time was to treat games less as experiences to be enjoyed and more as puzzles to be solved. Players were expected to hand-draw maps and start the game over dozens of times in order to try out new solutions, and game length was measured in weeks instead of hours. By those standards, more obscure was harder to figure out and thus better.
3. These games were made for personal computers, at a time where you had to have legitimate technical knowledge to use a computer, and a good amount of money to have one for recreation. That is to say, the target audience for these games was adults with lots of free time and a high tolerance for bullshit.

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>>383108202
>>383108360
It's okay. Here's another one.

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>>383108492
I'm at a loss as well, can some one please answer?

>>383108202
The problem with Oblivion's maps was the exact opposite of Skyrim's: there was fuck all to do in them because they were all labyrinthine sprawls full of level-scaled nothing.

>>383108686
>labyrinthine
More "had 2-3 environmental assets between them".

>>383106395
What happens if you enter an inescapable room like [14,2]?

>>383108850
Another problem, yes.

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>>383108574
here's some sewers

>>383108686
I agree, and some parts looked exactly the same as in other dungeons. I still love these dungeons though, and there are some bits that are truly unique in them. Also with the mods I have they are perfect for spelunking.

Oh also in skyrim every dungeon still looks the same anyway.

>>383107148
Tourian itself is some kind of giant puzzle (nothing too hard). Its kind of fun, but the escape sequence can be tedious for some people.
they give you 15 min iirc
obligatory slow water platforming
rising lava halfway the escape
the ship isnt where its supposed to be
i enjoyed it

>>383106684
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40QSd6ZtZfk

>>383075159
Top left. Exit is at bottom right.

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Don't mind me, just bringing out the truth bomb.

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>>383110203

>>383110157
>everything's optional, just walk to the exit

Please don't do level design.

>>383073696
Capcom remakes ghouls and ghost

>>383110341
But it's the optimal system. Win prizes with exploration but you can go ahead and speed through if you want to, and if you know where the exit is. Also not overly complicated so you don't need to trek back and forth to explore the whole level when and if you took a wrong turn at some crossroad.

>>383110203
Where's the roof? There's clearly a stairwell at the top right of floor 5 leading up.

>>383093579
Game? I'm assuming the filename doesn't have something to do with the game

>>383110203
Were dungeons in Phantasy Star always this straightforward? I remember them being fucking enormous.

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>>383110583
You exit the dungeon from there and can fly to the final dungeon, fighting a boss on the way.

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>>383110735
The first Phantasy Star dungeon weren't that bad I thought. Though the first person perspective makes it easier to get lost sometimes. Phantasy Star 2 has the really crazy ones.

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>>383108904
there is one item that lets you escape this trap room just once

>>383099467
Fuck, came here to post this

>>383110886
Damn, Phantasy Star 2 also looked more dull than I remember. Every dungeon in the game is either all pipes, generic sci-fi labs in washed-out colors, or this depressing castle structure with the same 2 dragon statues as far as the eye can see.

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>>383106919
A-at least we got to the end of the maze, right?

>>383111309
Yeah, and there's only the one battle background too. I still like the game, but it could have used more variety in the graphics.

>>383089523
now this is OG trolling I hope this is from a newspaper/book


also all this talk about loss and no one has made some OC maze yet for shame nu-/v/

>>383111518
It's almost 2 in the morning here, sorry.

>>383082527
>Game punishes you for hitting walls
>Certain puzzles require you to find breakable walls

>want to play dungeon crawler RPGs
>give M&M 6 and Wizardry 7/8 a try
>lose interest because I have an attention span like a goldfish and dialogues are TL;DR for me

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>>383108593
this comic

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>>383110157
Ftfy

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>>383072995
Going to agree tremendously, going from Arkham Asylum to Arkham City, huuuuuge drop in quality, have to force myself through it because of how much of a chore it is to play, don't even feel like playing it much.
Fucking open world meme, they went from a Metroid style world which was very enjoyable to explore to a fucking GTA travel and race across the city to your destination over and over and over again, they threw away all sense of structure and good level design out the window in favor of what's trendy.
Fucking why!

>>383072995
>bad
linear games arent always bad. i depends on the game.
>better
yes, because i can't get enough of indie horror games.
>best
again, depends on the game.
>worst
open world games are the best, though. no man sky was best.

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>>383082527
>>383111638
:^)

>>383074145
>when daggerfall dungeons were so bad todd just gave everyone a set of cheat tools you could use to save yourself when the RNG fucked you over

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Best

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>>383106919

>>383112028
Ah, I was expecting this sooner

>>383111802
I Literally can't play as catwoman because she activates my almonds hard

>>383076328
grimrock 2 was goty

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>>383110157
I've always preferred level design like this.

>>383112478
That's pretty good.

>>383110617
looks like the 1st floor of ultima underworld

>>383112478
darksouls

This thread reminds me why open world is shit. You cant have nice structured design in a place that lets people go where ever they want.

>>383072995
no anything is fine depending on the game, and open world is definitely not the best, being able to run somewhere instead of selecting it in a menu or a world map doesn't make a game better.

>>383112478
That's cool, though I dislike branching paths as they just generally force the player to go from point A to point B then back from B to A so they won't be missing out on anything major from not using the other path. And secrets suck unless they're made visible, like an unaccessible pathway up high and a lever or a levitation item hidden somewhere ~nearby.

>>383112972
Yes you can, you just need to be better at level design because you can't force the player on the intended path.

>>383113253
>game tells you to find a certain amount of hidden secrets to get a big reward
fucking D44M, one thing I hated in that glorious game

>>383113527
Not true. The best way to do level design in an open world game is literally to railroad them into a more structure space. Provided, you can have some architectural design in leading people places with nature-orientated design. But it's the most boring and unrealistic level design considering how out of place it is compared to dungeons that are man made.

>>383112972
It's not the open world that is the problem here.
It's lack of mathematical background in bad devs.
People think that they can just make a good, balanced game without basic statistics, without thinking of the map as a graph and without thinking of exploits and tricks the player can pull off.

>>383113641
How is it out of place to have interesting locations that invite you to explore them?

>>383113635
>game tells you to find a certain amount of hidden secrets to get a big reward
How about Arkham Asylum? Gather all of these 120 Riddles trophies! Oh, you found them all? Here's a 20 second audio clip as a reward. Hope you had fun!

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>>383113253
I some what disagree on the secrets and I say that as a player that would directly benefit from a designer doing such a thing.

>>383113776
I never said that. I just said that most open worlds lend themselves to lazy design like modern adventure games because they use it as an excuse to skimp out on it.

>>383113253
Well yeah, nobody really liked oldschool FPS secrets of "hump the goddamn walls until something shows itself".

That said you don't have to lead them by the nose or anything.

>>383113873
Well that's obviously true. I thought you were saying it's impossible to have good design in an open world setting.

>>383072995
>BEST
>find the goal
>have to backtrack to explore the rest of the map to make sure I didn't miss anything important
fuck that

Labyrinth by Shintaro Kago

>>383073587
t. Someone who's never designed a video game in their life.

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>>383113973
How would you go about designing an open world? What general rules/guidlines would you keep in mind to make sure it didn't result in either a patchwork clusterfuck or a content desert?

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>>383073450
Did I upset you?

>>383114226
literally just make a lot of content. Thats how old crpgs got back. Guys spent months working on dialogue and stuff to find out in the world. That art was lost as devs got lazier and more business orientated. A shame too considering we're in the day and age where you can do a whole lot more and yet the only person doing it is toady with dorf fort.

>>383074145
Does Daggerfall have Passwall?

>Baphomet's dungeon in Ragnarok
holy kek

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>>383073708
>tfw used to autistically handcraft maps and shit for every area and plot out specific enemy encounters/loot/everything when I first started DMing
>group soon devolved into "fuck this, kill/rape everything"
>would actively try to avoid every encounter/quest I offered if it didn't involve murder or it had the slightest hint of exploration to it
>didn't want to railroad them so let them do whatever
>now I just think up generic little encounters/simple maps or just pull up an old one I did with slight variations because they always spend like five minutes doing shit in them and then leave or bitch that the dungeon doesn't have whores to rape if they have to spend more than two rooms worth of time in it

>>383114226
Depends on the movement options the player has access to.

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>>383112478
I'd prefer something like this 2bh

>>383106919
predictable

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disagree

entirely dependent on the kind of game
>racing
>a is good
>b's best (secret paths etc)
>c is fucking shit fuck you burnout paradise
>d is the same thing

score attack
>a and b are best again

>twinstick shooter
>d is best
>c's alright
>a and b are worst

>singleplayer FPS
>b and c are pretty good
>d can actually work well, too, as in the case of FC2 at least
>a works as well

>RPG
>d is the best

and so on and so on

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>>383074145
>quests were timed
>quick traveling uses up days and money
>huge dungeons with tons of enemies to kill and treasure to find
>it could take in game days to find quest objectives since rest was balanced toward taking up large amounts of hours
Why was daggerfall the only fucking TES game that felt like an actual game. It's almost as if you can't fail a quest in Skyrimjob and a majority of quests in Oblivion and Morrowind.

>>383107729
>>383108574
Do you have Shalidor's """"Maze"""

>>383084302
Dark souls never limits your ability to backtrack though, at least after some time

I enjoy maps similar to those in pokemon games. I don't know why, but I enjoyed gen 4 a lot.

Also the only collectathons I like are games where it becomes relaxing to get shit and explore.

>>383115727
That's great too. You can like both.

But yeah I haven't seen oldschool FPS levels in forever.

>>383117242
Halo is probably the best FPS design we're going to get ever again.

>>383099618
teleporters

>>383112028
What is this?

>>383098861
How long did it take paint to do that?

>>383118293
Took Paint.net about 4 seconds after I clicked.

>>383110575
>Breeze through the level with no real challenge, no danger, and no need to pay attention in any way
That's boring as shit.

>>383117182
So you mean linear maps?

>>383110935

That description is pretty scary. Remind me of Waxworks.

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>>383073157
Wrong

>>383073157
I unironically agree. Big maze. NO AUTOMAP. Best design.

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>>383072995

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>>383120249

>>383120249
Can't Cirno fly

>>383072995
OP Is not a faggot.

>>383073156
VERY underrated

>>383121093
Needs some work but pretty much

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>>383110334
I say old chap, that game looks rather decent, eh wot!

>>383102470
not to mention that this game is constantly being updated with new areas added/removed so the guide is no longer 100% accurate

>>383110735
Yes. They're actually not that bad at all. But the game doesn't give you an automap so you're entirely navigating those in first person alone. It's fucken perfect, honestly. Having super complex dungeons would make making maps neccesary or you'd tear your hair out, and having a map for a straightforward dungeon would spoil it. Phantasy Star hits that perfect sweet spot where the dungeons are the perfect size and complexity to do 100% mapless.

I mean the map in the post you're referring to is THE toughest dungeon in the game, and that's nothin' insurmountable.

>>383117572
A literally autistic Japanese janitor drew that over the course of like ten years or something.

>>383100963
>it's raining in city of tears because of the blue lake above

>>383110157
Nice

>>383072995
Depends on the game.

>>383120249
just go there by the outer rim

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>>383073157
>maze like dungeon
>no map
>only 1 way out, look like a cave path
>time limited
fucking atelier

>>383072995
"Better" is fucking retarded, I hate games where I never know which way you should go to avoid backtracking because some cunt wanted to put a specific item to the side for some reason. Just make it either linear or specifically tell the player somehow that an item is needed and it's "off the beaten path" without making you fucking backtrack.

>>383123214
Why don't you just watch Let's Plays then

>>383123214
A little backtracking never hurt anyone.

>>383110157
They are both different kinds of bad.

>>383123862
It's a bad way to make the game seem longer than it actually is.

>>383112028
Spot the caped baldy.

>>383106395

>The answer is right in front orf you!

>>383072995
I guess gothic 2 really is the greatest rpg ever made.

>>383090524

corn syrup is found in most food products sold within the united states

>>383114230
>The joke

>your head

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is time

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>>383072995
>Oblivion Lost early alpha builds
>Clear Sky
>Shadow of Chernobyl
>Call of Pripyat

>>383073157
Someone post the map of that clusterfuck of level from SMT Strange Journey or whatever game it was

>>383127285
Ignore my post I'm a huge faggot

>>383097671

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Post actual vidya maps.

>>383127539
Oh, Aquaria? Man that game was empty and shrill.

>>383072995
These all look like DCSS dungeon floors.