The trick to fool Akechi was easily the most bullshit thing

It really wasnt. I caught it and was mad they didnt catch it only to find out they actually did

It was nice seeing competent characters for once

>>382987954
Akechi didn't even know that his father saw him as a threat, it isn't hard to trick him.

idk what the opposite of "dramatic irony" is called but yeah it was great fuck you op

>>382988123
Explain the whole shadow Joker situation then. Shadow Joker gets killed and nothing happens to actual Joker. By the logic of the game up until this point the real Joker should have suffered a mental shutdown and perhaps death.

>>382988314
also wondering this

>>382988314
>>382988359

It wasnt Jokers cognitive version of himself. It was Sae's. If the real version in HIS mind is killed he dies/mental shutdown but it was SAE's version of him

Are y'all retarded?

>>382988359
>>382988314
literally dsp tier kill yourself

>>382988314

Not his shadow.

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>>382987954
DEFEATED BY PANCAKES.

>>382987954
I don't like how MC's scheming was hidden from the player. Not a good way to write a self-insert character, it creates a disconnect.

>>382988416
To expand on this, just like how ann BTFOd shadow ann in her dungeon. That was kamoshidas version of her, not her own.

>>382988314
There was no mental shutdown because that wasn't Joker's shadow (he doesn't have one becaise fuck Jung theory). It was Sae's cognitive version of him that was killed. If you want to pick away at the whole sequence you should be asking why the Guard and Joker's bodies didn't dissolve immediately after being shot because that part made no damn sense.

>>382988496
They explained this. The drugs they were giving him fucked up his memory which is why we couldnt see his plan

>>382987954
The most BS thing was how it ended.

>we beat god! we will never give up!
>okay time to let the authorities win.

God Akechi makes Adachi and Strega look so much better by comparison.

What the fuck happened to Persona 5?

>>382988416
This.
But since he's a persona user he can't have a palace or a shadow form of himself. Morgana explains this.

Also shido has a cognitive version of akechi that you could theoretically kill without it affecting the real akechi.

So there is a difference between cognitive versions of people and shadows of people.

>>382988314
Persona users don't have shadows. It was Sae's mental cognition of him, like Shadow Okumura's version of Haru's fiance.

How fucking retarded do you have to be to not understand something so simplistic?

>>382988556
>Guard and Joker's bodies didn't dissolve immediately after being shot because that part made no damn sense
was gonna refute this by saying it didnt happen to Okumura until I looked it up again to notice his shadow immediately dissolved after being shot. No excuse for that

>>382988556
>why the Guard and Joker's bodies didn't dissolve immediately after being shot because that part made no damn sense
The game was rushed?

They were lucky that the hero managed despite the drug, that Sae's cognitive world is fairly normal, that Akechi failed to realize his phone was bugged, that Akechi outed himself in the beginning

>>382989141
yeah akechi was pretty sloppy for someone who's an "ace detective"

>>382988839
maybe its different for cognitive selves and shadows?
or its just plot, whatever

>>382989282
His reputation is built upon fraud, no surprise.

>>382989282
Isn't that the point though?
He was never an ace detective in the first place, so him slipping up seems rather believable

>>382988314
That was the whole point of Sae not being allowed to know their plan, it was her cognition of him, not his own shadow.

>>382988123
They got lucky though. Not really a matter of competency. I bet the P3 or P4 crew would have caught it too

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>>382988314
>>382988496
How can an anon be this fucking retarded?
Game specifically explained this thrice,
that same anon complained P5 to hand holdy too much explaining,

YET HERE HIMSELF BEING A FUCKING RETARD.

>>382989141
To be fair, they made that plan after being in Sae's cognitive world so they already knew it was fairly normal. That's why they checked out the underground room, to make sure it was far from the area she had distorted views on.

>>382989689
P3 crew didn't even detect Ikutsuki

>>382989689
They're lucky because Morgana.
I dunno how P3 would manage that, since they can't even detect ikutsuki.
And P4 wouldn't know until the end since they're too trusting with their team.

>>382988670
Adachi actually manages to pull off a good crime spree.

Strega messed some people up but they didn't really have much of a plan.

>>382989689
Getting lucky is putting it lightly. That whole plan was essentially a suicide mission.

>>382989842
He was lucky to find and use Namatame

>>382989838
Ikutsuki hid himself better, to be fair.

P4 at least had Naoto. I'm just surprised Phantom Thieves can get anything done with Ryuji and Ann there. Probably two of the clumsiest characters in Persona.

>>382988839
The cognition's behave depending on their surroundings you stupid idiot. If they are in a realistic environment they behave realistically, it's like how the more real a gun looked the more threatening it was to a shadow. The more realistic the scenery the more realistic the death.

Cognitive Ann and Shadow Okumura vanished immediately because there was massive distortion where they were killed.

>>382989940
They had the best God damned hacker though

>>382989940
Naoto was pretty dumb though, only the main character realized Adachi was the culprit

>>382990015
and makoto

>>382990049
Adachi hid himself far better than Akechi. The damn ace detective gave himself away every moment he was with the PT

>>382987954
What was bullshit about it? Every element of the ruse had come up earlier in the story and then it was all explained in excruciating detail later.

Ikutsuki's puns vs Adachi's cabbage vs Akechi's pancakes, who win

They really should have made Akechi into a normal party member earlier in the game. His Confidant progression made it too obvious.

>>382990694
they should have made sae replace goro after he leaves the party

>>382990831
She has a shadow, she doesn't have a persona.
I don't know why in 5 people with shadows don't have persona according to Morgana.

>>382991283
Because continuity no longer seems to be a thing with the writers.

>>382988314
It seemed confusing to me at first, but on a second playthrough I noticed they very clearly establish an aspect of the plot in every new dungeon.

>Kamoshida's castle explicitly establishes that the slaves are cognitive humans and are different to both Shadows and the real versions, to the extent than ANN KILLS KAMOSHIDA'S COGNITIVE ANN as soon as she transforms.
>When you first enter Madarame's museum, Morgana, the being who SPECIALIZES in the Metaverse is transported there without even noticing for a minute or so. This establishes that the app can be activated without all participants knowing it.
>Sae's casino has a pretty extensive scene at the beginning where EVERYONE (strangely enough even Akechi himself) notices that when the Metaverse activates, only the location of the distortion changes; the rest of the "world" is more or less identical to the real world version.

>>382991283
>>382991404
Futaba has a shadow, yet she still got her Persona.

>>382991283
But the story about her castle and everything could lead to her having an awakening about who she really is, and she probably has a metaverse app given that she's been to the cognitive world. I would've appreciated an adult party member.

>>382991481
Probably wouldn't fit the 'fight against the adults' theme of the game thoguh

>>382991283
Because when you get your Persona, your shadow disappears. Shadow only exists as long as you don't accept what it is. It's why Futaba gets her Persona the same way everyone in Persona 4 did: by accepting her Shadow as a part of her and absorbing it. Sae having a shadow doesn't mean she couldn't have gotten a Persona later.

>>382991626
So I guess what they mean is awakened persona users don't have shadows?

>>382991571
>Woman in a male-dominated industry stone-walled by her asshole boss and inducted into an honorary member of the PT when she agrees to fight the power with Joker

I dunno man, it feels like she could make a statement about social reform if she tried

>>382991720
Yupp thats exactly how it is.

>Jung is rolling in his grave right now.

>>382988314
People complain, that the game explains everything to the players too many times, and here you have this fucking retard, that still can't understand shit

>>382991728
Her story is pretty much told though. She unfortunately wasn't really mean to be on your side entirely.

There's some hidden disc dialogue that was cut that made it seem like she was a romantic interest though

>>382991838
Yeah and her moaning.
Like, why would they need that?

>>382991626
I find it really interesting that Futaba's shadow actively wants to join back up with the main version. It's probably something to do with the fact that she wants to die so instead of saying inflammatory stuff about the darkness inside her, it's trying to help her survive so it can fulfill its desires and become part of the Persona. The Shadow isn't self-destructive, after all.

>>382991913
probably getting hit sound effects

>>382991838
the fact that her Confidant jumps from level 6 to 10 says that a bunch of shit was cut from her story

>>382991963
Exactly why I ask why?
What did they planned for her to actually need that voice before scrapping it of?
Potential party member?

>>382991838
There's no better candidate for adult party member, though, and there's nobody who could have a better story in the context of changing society. Her Confidant-link is just her learning to trust Joker instead of opening up and sharing a real mutual bond, which was disappointing.

>>382992105
either a boss fight or party member
seriously, sae as a fucking party member man, her shadow's true form was obviously supposed to be like the P4 shadows that turn into persona later

>>382992156
It was pretty important, though.

>>382991462
She had shadow which became her persona

>>382992156
I think the writers realized that her being a member of the party kind of screws with the theme of the game. Especially when they seemingly cut a huge swath of her confidant link.

Maybe they'll change it by Crimson, if it comes.

>>382991283
>>382991404
>>382991462
You guys are so fucking dumb
Have you not been paying attention?
Even if you've never played Persona, you should have a basic understanding of Jungian psychology.

ALL HUMANS
okay
HAVE BOTH
a shadow AND a persona
They're originally not gameplay mechanics; a persona is a "way" you present yourself to other humans. With no humans, persona do not exist. With no humans, shadows do not exist. A shadow is the exact opposite of a persona; it is all the little secrets and past that you deliberately don't tell people.

All humans in the Persona game series have a shadow that may or may not appear; they all potentially could get a Persona but due to circumstances they may or may not, such as Sae. Technically, even if you had a Persona, if you ended up distorted, your Persona could revert into its Shadow form, just like how a Persona can evolve into a more powerful form after an epiphany or resolve.

>>382992156
Imagine if there's a scenario where PT got kidnapped by unknown entity and it's up to the adults to save them.
Sojiro, Sae, Tora, Iwai, Ohya, Kawakami got a persona to bring the PT back.

>>382992236
Ever considered people never read Jung as well?
Thanks for the psychology lecture though.

>>382992203
Makoto was a post-apocalypse-flavoured biker. What would Sae's design and flavour be? What's the visual depiction of her style of rebellion, with a design flavour because it's cool?

>>382992384
>ohya
eugh, no thanks

>>382992384
I can't see Kawakami or Ohya having spirits of rebellion adequate to summon a Persona. Sojiro would probably be the Operator.

>>382992236
>you should have a basic understanding of Jungian psychology

I'm not a barista, I took actual useful classes in college

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>>382992236
>you should have a basic understanding of Jungian psychology.

>>382987954
My biggest issue with it was Futaba. I fucking hated her character in the main plot, being the "ultra jesus hacker that can almost do anything" made the whole trick feel so cheap. And everything up to that point made it so unbelievable that the group was able to come up with a plan like that, just felt like a giant asspull than a genius plan. I don't have issues with the "cognition" logic tho, but being able to control it? Nah that was too much.

>>382988496
Yeah this too.

desu the biggest bullshit of P5 was the entirety of last half, or last 3rd. The build up just wasn't backed up and there was a lot of misdirection that served to detriment the experience in the end.
Great game still

>>382992236
A persona user should still have a Shadow. Persona 1 and 2 got this correct since following the Jungian theory you actually present yourself in multiple ways (like wearing different masks) as a way to protect your true self. Thus your Persona is merely a way to protect the real you from the world and yourself from the true you. In P1 and P2 the casts all wield multiple Persona's and are shown to have Shadows. Modern Persona's completely disregarded these facts.

At least now I know you can split the velvet room attendant into lolis.

>>382992532
Ohya is hot blooded reporter. She's all about fuck your rules I'll find the truth.

>>382987954
I'm still upset you never get to see Shido get his ass taken to jail, or that nobody really reacts to him admitting his crimes.

>>382992789
Eh, I prefer the modern Persona take on giving more clear rules to the shadows and Personas. Plus character Personas representing the characters better. Characters having multiple masks just mucks up the theme of each game

>>382992701
control what?
She can't control the cognition world what the fuck are you smoking?

Why do the MC allies start getting persona that fits the MC persona theme? Any game explanations for that?

>>382993008
>Why do the MC allies start getting persona that fits the MC persona theme?
I would If I can understand what you're saying.

>>382988314
Arsene is Joker's shadow, dumbass.

>>382992405
>>382992686
>>382992698
Alright, I apologize for my obstinance, but I feel it's wrong to complain about the game's failings when it's actually following a pre-established canon. No offense, but if you're over, say, 21, you should have read about stuff like this. Basic psychology, body language, basic history and politics. You don't have to do a class by any means, you can learn it all in a couple of books.

>>382992789
You're correct; the word "persona" literally means "mask", not the way we think of it today. The idea comes from the fact that you act differently in front of your mother than you do in front of a girl at a bar or with your guy friends. We wear different "masks" for each social outing, so really all characters should have the "Wild Card". But I understand why they don't in terms of game mechanics.

One more thing; so a shadow and a persona are one in the same; but given that in these games a human can stand there and summon a persona like a stand, there's no reason why you couldn't have yourself, (ego), persona (superego) and shadow (id) in the same room; and a shadow's "persona" could similarly manifest as a sort of mind-trick.

>>382993056
I think he means, why did everyone get trickster thief Persona's to match the MC's instead of someone randomly getting a normal deity or something.

>>382993224
Aside from Goemon, none of their persona are trickster thief. I don't get what you're saying.

>>382993305
Depends on what you consider a 'trickster'.

>>382993419
I only repeating what the other anon saying.
Why should I be the one who define it?

Is it possible to get a persona based on a still living person, say like Putin or Chuck Norris?

I'm glad real people were Personas in 5, really helped me to explain that Personas, when wielded by humans, aren't necessarily the REAL deity, just manifestations of a particular type of belief and feeling that people have. Odin IS real, but when you summon Odin it's just a character manifesting a personality that would lead to Persona taking the form of Odin, like anyone can do.

>>382992986
She actually can but she didn't do anything of the sort for the master plan.

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>>382988314
I still cannot believe people could play through 60odd hours of the game at that point and didn't understand the mechanics of how the metaverse cognitions and the plan worked.

>>382993502
In theory. Personas are just a type of cognitice construct that rise from the collective consciousness of humans.

>>382993008
There's not really a reason. If you think about it, in every single Persona game, what characters the Personas manifest as don't even really matter, except Thanatos and Arsene.

>3
Orpheus doesn't really have any relevence, only a tenuous connection between "muh MC likes music" and "goes to Tartarus, like, once"
Io got raped by Zeus like Yukari got raped by...oh wait no one.
Hermes is kind of a dick like Junpei.
Polydeuces liked punching things so bad he got his hands replaced with metal implements, like Akihiko and his protein??
Penthesilea...is a woman, like Mitsuru
Lucia is an autist like Fuuka
Aigis has Palladion which is... a statue... like Aigis...?
Ken's Persona is actually Nemesis, a female god of revenge - it's his mother come back from the dead, pissed as all hell
Koromaru gets Cerberus cuz he's a doge
Shinjiro has Castor who's Polydeuces' horse-riding brother who dies

>4
Main guy gets Izanagi who created Japan because Atlus tried too hard
Yosuke gets Jiraiya cuz they couldn't think of anything
Chie gets Tomoe who no one ever heard of
Yukiko gets some lady who died in a fire
Kanji gets some god of lightning
Rise gets some other lady who died in a fire
Naoto gets a really small deity because she's...short I guess?
Adachi gets palette-swap Izanagi because Atlus are lazy, seriously they used the entire Japanese pantheon except, I don't know, Tsukuyomi? Fuck

>5
MC gets Arsene who steals shit
Morgana gets fucking Zorro, funnily enough Zorro means "fox" and he's a cat
Ryuji gets Captain Kidd who got unjustly executed
Ann gets Carmen who never existed but is a foreigner who beat the shit out of some dudes
Yusuke gets Goemon who is GOAT
Makoto gets a female pope no one cares about
Futaba gets Necronomicon because KNAWLEDGE
Haru gets M'lady who is like the three musketeers but a woman
Akechi gets Robin Hood but it's a trick to make him seem good - he gets Loki which fits him pretty well and actually ties into the story

So, and this might be more of an SMT question, but were the deities and demons real before humanity perceived them, or is the cognition of them what made them real? Barring YVHV, of course, because he's too big-dick OG to have been made by humans.

>>382993502
I mean, I guess? But I feel like the thing that makes a Persona so important to the brain is that they're an "icon"; they're not done until their lives are complete, even if they were never alive.

>>382993775
Have you read anything about Orpheus?

>>382993216
I do think one interesting possibility about Persona's and Shadows is that it should be possible to create a new Shadow or bring back an old one if a significantly powerful event were to happen in your life (like say if one of your parents dies). Things such as depression should also dramatically affect your Shadow, Maki in P1 is a great example of this since she may have multiple shadow's depending on how you look at it.

>>382993809
Since Yaldabaoth was able to fuse the Metaverse and the real world, the answer to your question would depend if that had ever been done before, which we don't know.

>>382993503
You're not wrong, but I feel it goes a little deeper. Essentially, when all three protagonists summon "Odin", for example, they're summoning from the same source; the same collective cognition of that icon. However, to some people, they may look or behave differently, which explains why some Personas are in different Arcana between games, or why Loki's design is different in 3/4/5. (Like, we know why IRL, but in-game it can be explained too).

Is it just me or did this game feel unfinished?

It was like there was a massive rewrite at some point and they had to get the game out as fast as possible.

>itt
>retarded anons ask stupid fucking questions about the plot of the game
>game explains everything they asked about
>these are the people who complain about games being hard to understand or being too long
>call it weebshit and laugh
>/v/

>>382993960
The most interesting thing in P4 is that one guy who lives his life without a public face, so his Shadow isn't built of any characteristics. P4's Shadow stuff is really inconsistent and poorly-explained, though, so the idea isn't explored properly.

>>382988571
But the drugs they gave him didn't fuck up his memory regarding which book he read, on what day he did the reading, and what part of the book he read, including what sort of impression it left.

Why is the only thing the drugs fucked with was the absolutely crucial information for saving his own life?

>>382993809
It's deliberately unclear.
Given that every religion/belief system has a world creation scenario, it's obviously impossible for them all to have happened, though. In SMT I can't say, but for Persona it seems they lean more on the side of it being completely and entirely fabricated by the collective human consciousness. Consider also that Nyx is literally a primal force of death living in the moon. That's canon. That doesn't disappear in Persona 4 and 5.

>>382994103
There were plenty of re-writes but it didn't feel unfinished at all.

>>382994103
Just because it didn't go exactly like you want it to, doesn't mean you can called it unfinished.

>>382994116
Because it's crucial, that's how the brain works. The important part are the easiest to manipulate.

>>382994115
>P4's Shadow stuff is really inconsistent and poorly-explained, though, so the idea isn't explored properly.
I couldn't agree more. The TV World is such a good idea; it's a great way to visually represent the way media influences and coalesces human perception, but they didn't actually explain that at all and just made a yellow world with some TVs in the background that lead to stage levels.
They needed to explain how:
>Humans tend to believe new information unquestioningly (like on TV)
>The human collective consciousness would be a mish-mash of weird symbology and popular culture (like how the Hableries resemble the Rolling Stones logo)
>Human cognition may even passively influence the physical world more than we know
>Everything about Shadows and Persona

Palaces definitely felt like a refined version of Persona 4's thing. So was the TV World the natural habitat of Shadows, or what? Palaces give you a suggestion as to how they manifest, whereas the dungeons in Persona 4 are just sort of there. They didn't even mention how they tie in with typical TV show sets, which would fit the theme of the game.

>>382994142
I didn't think it was physically living ON the moon. I thought it was more like the primal idea and fear of what the moon represents is where the entity of "Nyx" resides.

Nyx is a force of death that only exists in the physical world during the Dark Hour anyway, so it's still a Shadow, made up of the collective desire to die just like Yaldabaoth is a shadow made up of the collective desire to be controlled and live in an assured society without the risks of mistake, or Izanami being a desire to be protected from the truth with lies. They can't exist in the same world as humans except in certain states where the boundaries are broken. Nyx comes out at midnight because it's perceived as a spooky time of sadness, Izanami appears in the fog because it's perceived as a shroud hiding the truth, and Yaldabaoth can only exist in Mementos because it's perceived as the same as the Subway, ie a place for wage-slaves to go on the way to being controlled by society,

>>382994116
He doesn't actually tell Sae every little detail, as can be determined from the fact that you know all your team members' names and yet when it flicks back to the current time she's like 'ARE YOU GOING TO TELL ME THEIR NAME??" Basically, it's set up the way it is for an "in media res" opening and a flashy, tense way for you to enter your name.

>>382994186

That's not it at all.

It just feels like something is missing.

Akechi's motives make no sense, and the fact he also has the wild card is never fully explored, like has he ever visited the velvet room? Could he? Did he have any other personas?

And Shido is pretty much forgotten about after his boss battle, and we never hear anything about him again.

The jump to going into mementos, then jumping to the velvet room, and then Tokyo and fighting an evil god is jarring and all over the place.

The final goodbyes on the last day didn't feel as powerful as the last games either.

>>382994116
I chose to believe that the flashbacks are not 100% literal, I mean leveling up the judgement in the future allows for better fusions in the past, it's a gameplay contrivance.
I'm at two minds with the whole flashback vignetting anyway, on the one hand it removes player adgency, but on the otherhand that's kind of the point because up untill that point who you target is sort of controlled by others.

>>382994538
Last two of your point is just you being subjective about it.
The other point is just you for speedreading.

>>382994631

What point is me speedreading?

I was correct about the Shido and Akechi stuff never being fully explained.

>>382994723
it got explained, you just speed reading it.

>>382994538
>Akechi's motives make no sense,

He explains his motives, which are flimsy by design because he's a stupid dumbass who is incapable of forming legitimate bonds because he keeps up his mask constantly and lives a lie to act out his revenge plan.

>like has he ever visited the velvet room? Could he?

Normally no, given that Nyarlothep wouldn't invite Yaldabaoth's champion to hang out with him, but Yaldabaoth might have had him there as Fake!Igor. Given the thing with Lavenza, though, almost certainly not.

>Did he have any other personas?

Yes, Robin Hood. But because he wasn't able to open up, he couldn't gain more Personas like Joker. This is why Loki is so powerful, but he still loses to your team.

>And Shido is pretty much forgotten about after his boss battle, and we never hear anything about him again.

What? They go to Mementos BECAUSE of the public's inability to change their perception of him.

>The final goodbyes on the last day didn't feel as powerful as the last games either.

Maybe not as powerful as P3's ending scene, but definitely more than P4's, in my opinion.

>>382994538
>And Shido is pretty much forgotten about after his boss battle, and we never hear anything about him again
Yeah except they talk about him all the time up to the moment Joker leave prison

>>382994494

Nyx is canonically an alien that gave the human race a conscious mind.

>>382994494
>I didn't think it was physically living ON the moon.
It is, man. If anything, the way the moon descends in such a timely manner and opens up like a construct would suggest that it IS the moon, or that the moon was made for it or built around it.

>I thought it was more like the primal idea and fear of what the moon represents is where the entity of "Nyx" resides.
I can't find any evidence of that. The symbology is definitely there but you can't explain P3's finale other than "the fucking moon literally descends to earth". I would expect a traditional idea of "hell" beneath the earth to apply if that was the case.

>Nyx is a force of death that only exists in the physical world during the Dark Hour anyway
Where is the evidence of this? If Nyx were just a Dark Hour thing, death would not happen outside of it. The Great Seal would only be needed one hour a day. Remember that the Dark Hour expanded during The Fall beyond its normal limits.
>it's still a Shadow, made up of the collective desire to die
That was Erebus. Erebus is humanity's shadow, Nyx is merely a force of nature. If Erebus makes contact with Nyx, all humans die, but Nyx isn't evil, and perhaps not even sentient.
>Yaldabaoth is a shadow made up of the collective desire to be controlled and live in an assured society without the risks of mistake
That's right, but is a Treasure demon the same as a shadow? I suppose it basically is.
>Izanami being a desire to be protected from the truth with lies.
You're not wrong, but I just wanted to point out that nothing in Persona 4 mentions that Izanami is not the actual, literal Izanami from legend.

There are scattered hints that some things exist outside the human cognition; the fact that evokers require Nyx feathers to work for example. Izanami I can buy being a shadow and Yaldabaoth explicitly states where he's from (but interestingly not WHEN - is he millennia old, or did he pop up after Persona 4 - making him like 2 years old?)

>>382994552
>I mean leveling up the judgement in the future allows for better fusions in the past
It actually doesn't.
You don't get any bonuses to fusing Judgment Personas until after Sae's Palace.

>>382994843
>which are flimsy by design because he's a stupid dumbass who is incapable of forming legitimate bonds because he keeps up his mask constantly and lives a lie to act out his revenge plan

This characterization of him makes no sense to me at all.

He was a TV star, but he's pissed nobody likes him.

He got along well this group even if it was all an act.


>But because he wasn't able to open up, he couldn't gain more Personas like Joker

Couldn't he just talk to them like Joker?

>What? They go to Mementos BECAUSE of the public's inability to change their perception of him

Yeah, but we never know what happened.

We don't get to see people's perception of him afterwards or any statements from Shido after he was arrested, he's just written out of the plot.

>>382988314
It was Sae's version of MC, not MC's own version.

>>382995149
>He was a TV star, but he's pissed nobody likes him.
Ever heard the phrase "You can be lonely even in a crowd"? Just physically being surrounded by people doesn't magically make you one of them, accepted by them, it doesn't make you like them or them like you. He wanted interpersonal relationships but was unable to cultivate them, mostly due to his upbringing.
>He got along well this group even if it was all an act.
That's true, there should have come a point where he realized he could have just loosened up and been a part of the team. There's another phrase; "Fake it till you make it"; if you pretend to be something long enough (a prettyboy detective) you'll eventually become it. He was basically there, he just needed to work through some things.

>>382995149
>We don't get to see people's perception of him afterwards or any statements from Shido after he was arrested, he's just written out of the plot.
There's literally scene where cast hear people asking when Shido will be back because Japan can't be without prime minister.

>>382994975
>The symbology is definitely there but you can't explain P3's finale other than "the fucking moon literally descends to earth".

"What happens in the Dark Hour stays in the Dark Hour", basically, is what I assumed. That's why planes don't go down, cars don't crash, etc.

>The Great Seal would only be needed one hour a day. Remember that the Dark Hour expanded during The Fall beyond its normal limits.

Never played The Fall, just read about it. I assumed that the Seal was a metaphysical thing rather than a physical door, and while Door-kun's body died the perception of him and how he helped everyone past their loss is what stopped Erebus, the desire to give in to despair, to meet with Nyx, the desire to die that we all try to suppress (and the failure to do so manifests in Apathy Syndrome), and make everyone on the planet kill themselves. I'm not as informed as I could be, I admit, so I apologize if I'm wrong on some points.

> If Erebus makes contact with Nyx, all humans die, but Nyx isn't evil, and perhaps not even sentient.

I don't think any of the Shadows/Demons/Personas are inherently evil. They just reflect desires and beliefs of the human race, and are only as much of a problem as we make them.

>You're not wrong, but I just wanted to point out that nothing in Persona 4 mentions that Izanami is not the actual, literal Izanami from legend.

I know, manifestation of humanity's innate desire or conception of something.

>is he millennia old, or did he pop up after Persona 4 - making him like 2 years old?)

I took it that he was as old as the human race, but only became powerful enough to be a problem after there was some shift in society that caused more people to desire the ability to surrender their free will.

>>382995361

He's on good enough terms with Sae to ask her out to dinner.

The fact he had no friends at all before your team is bullshit, he's clearly got the motivation and social skills to at least try, and his personality and status are enough to be liked by at the very least one person he'd try and open up to in his life.

>>382995465

I meant after you "fix" them.

>>382995149
>He was a TV star, but he's pissed nobody likes him. He got along well this group even if it was all an act.

But nobody knew the REAL Akechi. It was all an act. He felt isolated because he was unable to make friends with his real self, because he felt he was worthless except to take revenge on his father.

>Couldn't he just talk to them like Joker?

In a word, no. Unless he showed them his real self, talking to them wouldn't make them have their epiphany that they're actually part of the human cognition.

>We don't get to see people's perception of him afterwards or any statements from Shido after he was arrested, he's just written out of the plot.

Joker goes to jail because of him, dude, come on. Just because he doesn't physically appear after that point doesn't mean it doesn't count.

>>382995636
>He's on good enough terms with Sae to ask her out to dinner.
She's his co-worker, I don't even think Sae considered him as friend.

And no, I don't think he had no friends at all, it's just that he doesn't have friend that close to him you know? Why would I even need to explain this to you? Don't you have that friend where's you're close to, and other "friends" but just to hang out with?

>>382995826

So you're saying he wanted someone to bro shower with?

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>>382994494
Forgive my autism but I made this chart a while back to try and sort all of this stuff out. I was real tired when I made this so there are probably a couple of spelling errors and it's a clusterfuck.

>>382995579
>"What happens in the Dark Hour stays in the Dark Hour", basically, is what I assumed. That's why planes don't go down, cars don't crash, etc.
They don't make that clear unfortunately. Some have suggested that electronic equipment simply freezes in space, but that doesn't make much sense. But if that were the case, Shinjiro's Persona going apeshit and smashing buildings and killing Ken's mom wouldn't have been much of an issue.

>Never played The Fall, just read about it.
The Fall is the end of the game?

>I assumed that the Seal was a metaphysical thing rather than a physical door,
Uhh... well again, it's not made clear. It's sort of manifested in a weird half-cognitive space, but it's definitely physical on some plain of existence because Elizabeth is shown going back multiple times. You're not wrong, man, I think the dissonance just stems from a lot of it not being clear where the conceptual stuff begins and ends.

>I don't think any of the Shadows/Demons/Personas are inherently evil. They just reflect desires and beliefs of the human race, and are only as much of a problem as we make them.
I agree, it's kind of a deeper point as to why you can summon Lucifer. Kind of cheated with shit like Izanami later on, but hey.

>>382995963
This is a clusterfuck, dude holy shit.

It also doesn't really carry across a hierarchy at all when Persona Users are at the bottom, and so are Assistants and the Sagiris. Especially since Persona Users are theoretically the strongest beings on this chart, and someone with a strong enough cognition and belief is stronger than Nyarlothotep and Philemon.

>>382995963
Man, the existence of alien civilizations would totally fuck the Persona series.

>>382996180
>The Fall is the end of the game?

I thought you were referring to the content from FES that everyone seems to fucking hate where Yukari tries to save Door-kun. My mistake.

> because Elizabeth is shown going back multiple times

I don't take Elizabeth's actions in a literal sense, considering she has a fucking Wild Card and she's not even real in the sense that she doesn't possess a cognition. She's clearly some level beyond what a human could consider.

>Kind of cheated with shit like Izanami later on, but hey.

Persona 4 is weird and muddies a lot of its own lore, let alone the greater series.

>>382996251
>Especially since Persona Users are theoretically the strongest beings on this chart
There would be hierarchy for persona users too. I mean Erebus was considered tough boss for p3 team but it can be one shoted by vr attendants. And then Yaldy is stronger than them and even stronger than igor but got fucked by Joker

>>382996334
I could see it working. Psychic Aliens discover Earth, find that they're not alone in the universe as primordial soup starts to evolve creatures, they try to make the beings of Earth sentient and accidentally genocide them as the newly-psychically awakened beings of Earth cause a meteorite to strike the planet, their perception of Earth as a dead wasteland leads to the formation of Nyx as they fuck off forever. The human race emerges millions of years later with a form of mild psychic ability that allows them to manifest the demons of the metaphysical realm into Personas and shadows through subconscious psychokinesis and groupthink.

>>382995906
>Yaldy is stronger than them and even stronger than igor but got fucked by Joker
*by Joker with humanity willpower
fix that for you, Joker can't do that alone.

>>382996442
>I thought you were referring to the content from FES that everyone seems to fucking hate where Yukari tries to save Door-kun. My mistake.
Oh yeah, The Answer. While we're on the subject, I recommend you play it; it's very good. It has a bad reputation because basically in the first half an hour Yukari is taking out her grief on everyone and it's very hard compared to the main campaign. This leads to people giving up and calling it shit, even though if you actually keep playing, it explains why everyone is acting the way they are, it explains a lot about Tartarus and Shadows (it's actually the first piece of media that confirms outright that Shadows = Persona) and clarifies what happened with Nyx. The only thing I would argue is that it's a little superfluous because P3's ending is just fine and poignant the way it is. Can't complain about having the option of a second perspective though.

>I don't take Elizabeth's actions in a literal sense, considering she has a fucking Wild Card and she's not even real in the sense that she doesn't possess a cognition. She's clearly some level beyond what a human could consider.
Yeah that's true as well. Well, I don't know. It's just that it's made clear that P3MC's consciousness goes somewhere that is visually represented by a door, and that door's influence forced the moon back into orbit along with whatever lays within it.

>Persona 4 is weird and muddies a lot of its own lore, let alone the greater series.
I'm with you on that. It's not even a bad game, just misses the points that 3/5 do so well.

>>382996575
> And then Yaldy is stronger than them and even stronger than igor but got fucked by Joker

Every single human on Earth was rebelling against Yaldabaoth and believing in their saviour at that point. Joker was just the lightning rod for it. Just as Yaldabaoth became god-like because of the public believing in him and desiring him to take control, the public believing in Joker and his ability to break the chains of their ruler allowed him to manifest as Satanael. In a way, Joker IS the public's Persona now, just like Yaldabaoth is the public's Shadow.

>>382996721
Well Sinful Shell is basically spirit bomb but still Satanael is Joker own power and he's stronger than Yaldy to the point Yaldy can't even hurt Joker and his team

>>382996887
Not that guy, but see the post above you.

>>382996721
>>382996763
One point Persona 5 didn't really address is this;
At what point does "rebellion" become mainstream? Is it still rebellion if everyone is doing it? There was a time when the punk movement meant something; now it's seen as a funny little joke. At what point is rebellion justified/serious/a threat? Surely at the end, Yaldabaoth was the one rebelling against humanity? It's kind of implied that rebellion is always a good thing, so whose rebellion is more righteous? Rebellion is important for societal evolution, but surely that can be exploited (as it is in P5)?

Don't mind me, just pissing in the wind.

>>382988839
Maybe because Akechi thought they were real people, they didn't behave as cognitions in his presence?

Compare to Cognitive Ann, who everyone knew was a fake so she disappeared like a fake.

Was why they were still able to enter Sae's palace after it crumbled explained I cant remember

>>382997271
Because it never crumbled.

They defeated Sae's shadow, but had prepared a fake treasure - the briefcase you carry in the opening. Palaces only crumble when the treasure is taken.

>>382996758
>I recommend you play it; it's very good.

I plan on it. I started with P3P because PPSSPP is a godlike super-emulator, but I've been meaning to play FES anyway. If I recall correctly FES adds direct control, and you'd have to be a sicko to play without direct control, so the original is out.

>The only thing I would argue is that it's a little superfluous because P3's ending is just fine and poignant the way it is

I've seen parts of Yukari vs. Junpei, and that's pretty fucking poignant. I want to experience it just for that, honestly.

>I'm with you on that. It's not even a bad game, just misses the points that 3/5 do so well.

I'm glad I can meet someone who thinks P4 has narrative problems without getting shat on by angry fanboys. P4 fans are so twitchy and angry usually, like any attack on it is a personal affront. Generally anyone who defends Marie is safe to ignore forever, I've found.

In any case, I feel P4 is the weakest entry overall of the big 3. I still think it's phenomenal, with more polish than most RPGs that get released, but in a narrative sense, its themes characters it's simply not as strong. I fucking hate Yukiko and Rise acts like a fanservicey idiot who trips over your dick constantly, even after her S-Link should make her stop acting like that, and it shows that they clearly wrote her character out of sync with the main game and it's super visible. I can't think of a single example of the disconnect between story and S-link that Rise shows anywhere else and it's fucked up. They clearly hadn't had S-links for party members figured out yet, because Yosuke's S-link is about his jealousy of Yu which never shows up in the main story either. It's an awkward transition period between P3's method and P5's method, which are the perfected versions of both.

>>382997356
Oooh yeah you're right
Thanks

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>>382996763
Satanael is Joker power. He only used people hope's to create Sinful Shell ( when he siphons those golden orbs)

>>382997017
The issue you brought up is solved by the constant upwards momentum. You start off ultra-small with a teacher at a school, and then a semi-famous artist, and then a small-time mafia boss, and then a CEO of a company, then the law system as a whole, through to the loyalty of the entire country. The only place upwards from there is Yaldabaoth, a God that represents the opposite of rebellion. So there's never a point where the Phantom Thieves could be supported by everyone and thus become the common conception, except arguably with Okumura Foods but because he had so many lackies and employees and shareholders he had a bunch of people on his side too, that relied on him. He'd just launched overseas, even, and clueless foreigners had no idea that he was being unethical and supported him too.

Yaldabaoth is incapable of rebellion like fire is incapable of being cold, it's humans who are fighting against him constantly.

>>382997557
Satanael is his true self, like Thanatos to Door or Izanagi to Yu, but the supercharged version is because of the public cognition empowering him.

>>382997357
>If I recall correctly FES adds direct control, and you'd have to be a sicko to play without direct control, so the original is out.
I actually love not having control of the P3 team. At the very least, I think you should unlock control mid-social link as your minds grow closer, certainly not from the get-go. Besides, the reason Personas have 8 moveslots is specifically so your team can't fuck up by doing some stupid move. That's just my take, though. It felt more real to me.

>I've seen parts of Yukari vs. Junpei, and that's pretty fucking poignant. I want to experience it just for that, honestly.
Don't get me wrong, the character interaction is totally worth it, it's just the whole Erebus thing puts a spin on the Nyx thing. Not bad, just different - and I consider P3 to be a masterpiece on its own anyway.

>I'm glad I can meet someone who thinks P4 has narrative problems without getting shat on by angry fanboys.
Ahh, I'm very harsh towards Persona 4. I don't want to start an argument but I could tell from the get-go how lacking it is. I was relieved when on a stream Matthewmatosis said something to the same effect; Persona 3 lives and breathes it own theme. For a while I chalked it up to the fact that Persona's theme is "Death" which is a very important tarot card and Persona 4's theme is "Truth" which is not only not a tarot card but has no real relevance to anything else in the game system, but P5 kind of disproved that - unless you say that Persona 5's "representative card" is the Devil. Not too far of a stretch considering Satanael.

>>382987954
Nah, it's more BS that Akechi didn't check or even replace his phone when Futaba, a member of the team known for hacking, swiped his phone for a few minutes under the kind of obvious pretense of checking out his phone model.

Guess he was too full of himself and thought the rest of the phantom thieves are retarded compared to him.

>>382997759
Igor said that he already got power to oppose Yaldy. He didn't say that he need people to power up him.

>>382987954
Worst bullshit in P5 is that you can't fugg the twins.

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I don't care about possible plotholes or whatever, what pissed me off and ultimately made me drop the game was how the game fucking Heavy Rained me.
Fuck off with "lol drugs", I'm not buying that he happened to forget literally every important conversation, plan and setup but not how he drank shitty juice every sunday.

>>382998110
Well I fucking agree with you.
Fuck made me mad realizing it.

>>382997893
Futaba's swipe was canonically about a minute. Akechi isn't super technical so he wouldn't have realized that was enough.

Incidentally, it's perfectly possible to hack a phone that quickly if you have it in your hand, unlocked, on a network, and prepared a virus ahead of time. Simply turn on developer mode and connect to your special URL, then install. Full control.

>>382998367
See>>382994238
Even in health knowledge, it makes sense.
Ask your nearest expert.

>>382997969
Oppose =/= beat, though.

>>382998607
Well yeah. He still need power of shitposting to create God killing ammo but still Satanael>Yaldy in terms of power

>>382998489
I'm not super smart and even I saw it coming that Futaba took his phone to hack some sort of surveillance program into it.

I actually saw very little of the revelation stuff coming but I still never trusted Akechi.

Nigga went full-on Adachi in the first 5 seconds of asking Sae for sushi, he had "Massive fucking traitor" written on his forehead from that point onwards

>>382998489
>>382997893
Remember the thing about Akechi?

He caused the mental shutdown and psychological breakdowns, and then solved the cases himself, leading to him becoming known as "the Detective Prince". He doesn't actually have any good deduction skills or above average intelligence at all, because he set it all up. When he has to actually do some sleuthing on his own, he's late to the party.

>>382989517
>>382989546
His actual plan was pretty fucking well executed though except for the pancakes slipup

>>382998928
That's because you already know who Futaba is.
Try looking it at Akechi's perspective.

>>382999105
That was mostly because of Shido's, probably.

>>382991571
It isn't "fight against adults"
The theme is fighting against corrupt people in positions of power.
They could have used more young people but it just happened to be adults

>>382993809
It's generally the latter. Nocturne makes it pretty clear.

Of course that doesn't explain things like DDS's sun apocalypse.

>>382999459
Akechi knew who and what each of the phantom thief members are capable of since all the moment leading to his "betrayal" are all according to his and Shido's plans.

>>383002904
Even the part that Futaba is Medjed?
Look at my post again and try to understand it this time.