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Realising that Toby Fox had created Undertale by the time he

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Realising that Toby Fox had created Undertale by the time he was 24, It fills you with...
>>
>>382674527
No wonder it was so trash
>>
Looks weird
probably a jew
>>
reminder that no matter how many undertales he makes he still looks like a cuck
>>
>the only thing you want to really accomplish in life is to make a game
>a game
>something that people will use for a few hours of escapism and never think about again

Try to strive harder, anyone that is jealous of this guy
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>>382674913
Exactly, Undertale wasn't the most amazing thing ever either, even its aspect ratio is weird
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>>382674527
John Keats DIED at twenty-five.

Who gives a shit about Fox?
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>>382674913
What is higher? He made (and still is) making a killing out of something he enjoyed.
That is pretty damn good
>>
I still have a few days left, help me /v/ whats your million dollar idea
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>>382674527
undertale is utter shit, a game maker mashup of like 5 different games.
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>>382674913
>and never think about again
Yeah that's totally how it went down.
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>>382675108
Welp, time to get paid for shitposting on /v/

Somebody mail Todd Howard
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>>382674527
semitic face
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>>382674913
Like how an actor does something that people use for a few hours of escapism and never think about again?
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>>382675154
This, I enjoyed Fallout: New Vegas more than Undertale and that's saying something
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>>382675143
>its an FPS
>but to create ammo/reload you need to type words
>each bullet is a word and when it hits another person they will hear that word
>>
>>382674527
undertale is meme game for retared tweens
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>>382674913
You sound pathetic and have no goals in life, at least he did something and it paid off highly in his favor even if he didn't mean for it too.
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>>382675520
Typing of the Dead?
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>>382674527
it explains why its such reddit trash
underage liberals really flock there
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>>382675520
Typing of the dead is a thing
>>
Indifference.
>>
undertale is utter garbage
>>
>>382674527
DETERMINATION
>>
>>382675739
Reddit hates it.
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>>382675642
>>382675760

Not quite. You type your own words to shoot at other players.I'm sorry I wasn't that clear
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*teleports through time*

heh, Take back what you said about Undertale... or else ur gonna have a bad time
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>>382674913
I look at it differently. A successful game could provide financial independence in a short time. You could potentially become a millionaire within a week of launching your game.
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>>382674527
the only thing I'd be jealous about is the music. he didn't program a single line for the game and the sprite art isn't exactly jaw dropping

still a lot more than I will ever do with my life though
>>
>>382674527
Whats he done since then? Legit curious.
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>>382675598
You sound like someone who's so eager to mock and attempt to create suffering and blame in others that you don't notice he's peacefully standing his ground against a deliberate attack on the average character
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>>382675520
>>
Probably an hero before I reach that age.
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>>382676329
Chilling in Hawaii with millions in the bank
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>>382676408
I want to see what an elephant looks like in this world.
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>See this man in public
What do?
>>
the desire to make a game, too, and make it better than he ever could
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>>382676478
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>>382674913
you need to learn that the great ideas of mankind were first acted out in action, later in images

videogames aren't any different from that, you can say a lot with very little in a medium that combines some of the most profound mediums there are into a single entity
>>
>>382674726
Reminder that most people can look decent+ if they have a good hair cut, shave and exercise.
>>
>>382676434
Didn't some turbo-autist furfag basically fund the KS single-handedly desperate to get his shitty fetish OC in the game?

Don't give a shit about Undertale, but i'll tip my hat to the dude, he hit a sweet spot of autism at the right time and raked in the bucks FNAF style.
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>>382676329
Various Undertale-related Jeweries. Managing translations, porting to playstation and vita, selling merch.
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>>382676636
>Flednant
>>
>>382674527
i still feel empty.

if you watch sports its not uncommon for 18 year olds to make millions of dollars and win championships and sponsorships before they even turn 20.
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>>382676039
Rapid fire just type "fag"
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>>382676749
Yeah but the kickstarter wasn't very successful. It was the release which was wildly successful.

And tbf Ava's Demon writer got her OC in there too.
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>>382676481
Skip
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>>382674913
this 100%
believe in yourself anons you can do much better
>>
Determination!! xD
(undetale refference)
>>
>>382676270
the writing and characterisation is amazing though, and thats his. like papyrus, sans etc (the list could go on)
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>people shutting on him
I've never played the game. I doubt I ever will. But I'm assuming he's a ducking multi millionaire at 24 and will do whatever he wants for the rest of his life.
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>>382675402
>not enjoying fallout new vegas
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>>382676481
literally worship him
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>>382675107
Toby Fox is much more of a genius than Keats. What he did was SO MUCH harder and more impressive
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>yfw he's now gonna get even more money from sonybros
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>>382677086
The true pacifist ending ruins everything unfortunately
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>>382675154
>Monet is shit, all it is is a mash up of paints
>architecture is shit, its just a mash up of stones
>>
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>>382674913
There is more than a few generations walking this earth right now whose lives are forever changed by the games they have played as children.

I'd say thats a lot better than working 14 hours a day for your corporate master then going home and being bitter on a chinese basket weaving forum
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>>382674527
>>382676779

It fills me with really make me thinks.
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>>382674527
Indifference.
>>
>>382674527
...nothing
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>>382674913
Ahahaha says the virgin who probably works at McDonalds.
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>>382674913
Well when you put it that way it sounds lame, but so does pretty much any other job would too. If you can enjoy what you do and get payed for it I'd say that's pretty good
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>>382676749
Toby Fox is legitimately talented though (as a composer). FNAF is total garbage.
>>
disgust and contempt
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>>382676408
>that bear
THICC
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>>382674527
The desire to make my own games honestly.
I actually really liked Undertale despite it's shortcomings and that's reassuring.
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To be honest, I have absolutely no desire to play Undertale or FNAF. Not simply because of fanbases or what /v/ tells me of them, but it's because I'm legit jealous.

I'm hitting a weird point in my life where I'm not able to sit and waste my time (essentially what video games are) playing someone else's work. I don't mean to say I want to make my own video game because fuck video games, but there's this mental block in my head. I hate the fact that these games were made by literally one person and that they've made millions. And that I'm sitting here wasting time playing other people's creations when I want to create something of my own.

It really fucking bothers me.
>>
>>382679484
>I'm hitting a weird point in my life where I'm not able to sit and waste my time (essentially what video games are)
Stop buying into mainstream societies bullshit. You're doing this to yourself.
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>>382679205
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>>382679430
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>>382679642
No, not to sound like a tired gamer but when you hit age 32 when you've done nothing with your life since you were 18, it really makes you think differently. Probably some biological clock shit where your brain/body is telling you "get a wife, go make kids, have a house, picket fences" even though I don't want any of that. I wish I could sit on my ass all day and play video games, but something in my brain is telling me that I need to make or do something other than suck on the tits of someone else's work.
>>
>>382674527
>whoa, hey guys, welcome to EB games
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>>382678548
he has the DIGNITY of not pandering to furs
his parents are PROUD
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>Turned 24 last week
>Depressed, suicidal NEET alcoholic
>Tried to kill myself two months ago
>Had to move into aunt's house since my roommates fucked me over and left after not paying rent for a few months

So what's a good way to learn how to make a game
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>>382680051
I'm 25, been here for 12 years and I feel like I really need to do something that I can be proud of at this point. What sucks though is that I've spent all my time on this site and playing videogames since age 13 that I have absolutely no fucking creative skills. Can't draw, can't compose and can't program.
I'd start now, but it sucks being shitty for 2-5 years before you git gud and are able to make something half decent.
>>
>>382681054
Learn Unity, a simple, yet powerful engine.
Start doing "babbys first gaem" projects like breakout and work your way up.
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>>382681054
Gain a little programming experience and try experimenting in something like Unity.
The most important when you learn to program is to play with it and have fun, or else you'll feel like you're learning nothing important or useful.
>>
I was thinking he looked familiar and it just dawned on me he looks like a young Anthony Birch
>>
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>Turned 23 last month
>Speak English, Japanese, German, Dutch and Spanish
>Have a bachelors degree in both Electrical Engineering and Electronics Engineering
>Have girlfriend of 4 years
>Loving supporting family
>I'm also the saddest piece of shit alive that wants to kill himself every day

I'm 100% sure depression is just genetics and you were born unhappy or happy. Seen tons of people on welfare 100% happy as shit. And tons of people like me "successful" while also addicted to drugs and holding a gun to the temple at least once a month just contemplating eternal solace.
>>
>>382681054
Only way from there is up, anon. Keep pushing through it, you'll get there. I don't know why 20 year olds act like everything is falling apart around them. Most people don't hit their stride until they're mid 30s. Just be sure to stock away a little bit in retirement funds and personal savings/money market accounts, anon. Even 2 or 3% of your paycheck now when you're young goes a long way when interest on your earnings is involved. Find a nice cheap hobby, eat healthy, and have fun, man. You'll get there, I promise.
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>>382682060
>It will never get better because genetic lottery said "fuck you" and dictated you will feel like an emtional husk and want to die everyday no matter how much you achieve

Welp, time to try and kill myself again
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>>382682060
it's the fucking school system telling everyone that the key to ultimate happiness is to go to college for 4+ years and then work some awful job that you hate because it costs too much money to learn something else
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>>382674913
Oh sure, the average consumer idiot might just play it to play it, but to influence artists and writers or even next game devs is really the most satisfying part of making a game because you get to see other people make content for it, to build on the world you made or even be inspired to make their own using yours as inspiration.

But sure, anything that isn't a doctor or an engineer is a worthless goal. I don't think video games are for you, stick to Skyrim.
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>>382682060
>perfect life
>still sad

lol kill yourself
>>
>>382674913
>>something that people will use for a few hours of escapism and never think about again

Undertale sold 2.5 million lad, he's rich now
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>>382674657
Game is filled with kike mythology, so you're right
>>
I can't really hate a man who's Ranfag. Godspeed Toby.
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>>382674527
Indifference. Just a case of right place, right time. Lots of indie developers make lots of games, and they go nowhere. He happened to be lucky, and his game caught on. Every now and then, it happens. Good for him I guess, but I barely give a shit.
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>>382674527
Incredulity how this freeware tier trash not only sold anything, but sold as well as it did
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>>382674726
t. fatty
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>>382679642
t. NEET
>>
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>>382685341
>25
>SO OLD TOO LATE TO LEARN NEW SKILLS I AM AT MY PEAK IN LIFE

Guess you'll just have to kill yourself.
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>>382685849
Hey you, what's that sound? Everybody look what's going down.
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>>382685849
It's possible, but you don't learn in the same way you do when you're younger.
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>>382685341
You could be pretty good at art or an instrument about 3 years from now, but you'd have to work/study your ass off. I'm talking like 12-hour days. This is only doable if you're NEET though.
>>
imagine being so uncreative that you have to steal game mechanics from other games in order to fuse them into one "original" and "unique" idea
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>>382683074
the lol really sells it
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>>382686124
Yeah you learn even better at an older age.
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>>382686817
>steal game mechanics from other games in order to fuse them into one "original" and "unique" idea
If no one did this your favourite games wouldn't exist to begin with.
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>>382687350
The way Undertale did it was like taping several things together instead of synthesizing something creative yet inspired.
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>>382674527
i bet this nigga gets hella pussy like tumblr girl pussy fat tit kinda girls.
>>
>>382681054
You're not going to make it.
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>>382674527
>working on my own game
>tfw going to be 19 in a few weeks
Welp
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>>382682473
>choices are just illusions and everything is actually dictated from the moment you are born
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>>382688228
Do you thinking knowing about this changes it then? Why do anything at all if you have a specific fate?
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>>382674527
Absolute nothing.

A lot of people in his age and younger achieved even more and I don't care for them. Why should I care for him?
>>
>>382674527
Ugly and fucking boring game that is
>>
did he make it alone?
>>
>>382688345
>Do you thinking knowing about this changes it then?

No, just makes me acknowledge that I'm universes puppet.

>Why do anything at all if you have a specific fate?
Because we don't know the destination before the journey.
>>
>>382688761
>Because we don't know the destination before the journey.
Right, the destination is already determined and whatever you do will get you there. So why try doing anything if you'll get the end goal regardless?
>>
>>382688669
Mostly, though he got help for nearly half of the art because he's desperately bad at drawing.
>>
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It's fine. I started work on my magnum opus when I was 20. It will be done, someday.
>>
>GameMaker game, couldn't even write his own engine
>artwork is atrocious. Not even pixel graphics could hide his lack of skill. The only good looking assets were drawn by an artist he hired
>music is baby-tier with short loops and the most painful possible chiptune sounds. Worked in a ZUNpet at some point because he wants to be like ZUN so very badly, but he is nowhere close
>game is ancient dialogue trees with amateur danmaku (muh ZUN, please notice)
>story is try-hard quirky, "deep" and "dark" even for indie standards
Reminder that this hack collected 50k from Kickstarter begging. This ugly piece of shit actually had a budget, and you can't see anything of it in the final result. Even if he did use his funds to pay for another artist, composer or programmer, the game was flawed to begin with.
>>
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>>382674527
...Jealousy, to be completely honest. He succeeded in realizing the vision he had for his game and even managed to be successful as well, not only financially but also critically.

You know, I'd like to make my own game someday, a visual novel to be exact (yes I know VNs aren't exactly games) and although I'm slowly writing the script I always have this thought, that let's assume the stars allign and I actually do manage to complete and release it, and I put my all in it, giving everything I got and putting all the effort I can, what if I've been out of touch all along and it'll just end up being mediocre or downright shit? I'm scared to run that risk, I find more comfort in the idea that ''This game WOULD be EPIC, I'm just too lazy to actually make it''. I'm working on this lil' project of mine in small bits but at least I'm doing *something*. I'm not expecting to ever finish it and in the unlikely case I do I'm expecting to get either destroyed or ignored
>>
>>382682060
Kill yourself
Töte dich
自分を殺す
Dood jezelf
Mata a ti mismo.
>>
>>382675363
Nu male reply
>>
>>382674527
The thing you have to understand with Toby is that he had a built in following because he was the most popular member of the Homestuck music team. Of course, that was a small group compared to the Undertale fanbase, but he already had an "in" to get him going. That's something any other schmuck doesn't necessarily have. And since he was part of Homestuck, he knew every way to appeal to cancerous Tumblr teens.

Plus he's fucking great at music, that's probably 90% of why Undertale was so popular, Megalovania, with Sans along for the ride.
>>
be honest bros , what's the point of no return im 24 , neet , no studies , nothing ..... am i gonna make it?
>>
>>382674527
>Realising that Toby Fox had created Undertale by the time he was 24, It fills you with...

With the will to do something better than this putrid shit.
>>
>>382690715
You could, but I strongly doubt you would put in the effort to achieve anything.
>>
>>382674913
>meanwhile accomplished anon grins in his darkened room, satisfied that he will never know the shame of having created something enjoyed by millions of people
the delusion on this one...
>>
>>382674527
this post made me want to go to /pol/ for the day
>>
>>382690715
It depends on how much effort you're willing to put in.
>>
>>382690715
where do you live?
>>
>>382674527
meh

Buddy Holly was famous and went down as a legend when he died in a plane crash at 22.
There are numerous little shitters who scaled Everest at 13, sailed around the world at 16, learned to recite Mozart at 10 etc.
This guy in comparison is not really that much to be jealous of. In comparison Zuckerberg earned his first billion at 23.

There's always a little shit who's better and younger than you. Always.
>>
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>>382674527
Dread.

Seriously, I like games. I really do. But I'm a writer. I can only write, and it's all I do well. If I wrote a book that wasn't a heap of YA shit, the odds of people actually reading, enjoying, and finding something meaningful within it are slim to none.

Our lowest common denominator culture demands that if you want to reach the greatest amount of people, you need to make games, and it sickens me.
>>
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>>382691482
Amadeus should be a mandatory film for every aspiring artist.
>>
>>382691576
Toby's skill was literally only making music. He couldn't program or make art. But you can't let that stop you.
>>
cum
>>
>>382682416
Too many people buying into the early starters propaganda that's been shoved in our face all the time. You see people achieving almost everything before 20 and here you are mid twenties without an accomplishment in your life.

We're really setting a whole generation up to think the only thing in life is to be someone well renowned and talented and that there's no life outside that. Very very unhealthy attitude and one that'll ruin a generation if this propaganda doesn't stop.
>>
>>382674913
>those grapes sure are sour
>I will instead do something that even animals can do, that is, breed a couple of worthless degenerates and be proud of it
You will never be half as human as he was at 24
>>
>>382674657
>>382683598
What? You mean jews are real?
>>
>>382674527
Profound indifference. Good for him I guess? He's rich now and can do whatever he likes. Should be selling merch of it too, couple hundred of thousands he could easily make probably.
>>
>>382674527
Realize that my one hit wonder meme game is the only thing I will be known for.
>>
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>Furfag manchild's crown jewel by the age of 24 is a generic pixelshit lolsoquirky indie game
I guess I'm not doing that bad
>>
>>382690715
you could get a minimum wage job right now. if you can just do that then the rest will come with time
>>
>>382674527

Orson Welles wrote, directed and starred in Citizen Kane when he was 28.

It's not the greatest film of all time but it had some of the best directing of all time.
>>
>/v/ actually gets buttblasted about kid games
>>
>>382675107
who is john keats?
>>
>>382681050
go buy a meal with some of your parents' "pride". go pay your bills with some of that "dignity"
stupid valuesfag
>>
>>382674913
who cares if people think about it later or not? as long as i got the dough.
>>
>>382693057
What else is new.
>>
>>382675520
>semi-automatic nigger guns
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>>382674527
>Toby Fox gets prime gamer grill pussy
>More than you could ever get in your life
>Based conventions filled with nympho gamer grillz

How does it feel knowing this /v/? Feel pathetic now?
>>
>>382674527
Indifference
>>
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Mild respect.

Only mild because it's clear he could have done better if he didn't fucking sell out and polished it to a mirror sheen instead of banking on the autism.
>>
>>382682964
>undertale
>an earthbound clone
>being the influence for future artists and game devs

Great, more hacks in the business.
>>
>>382695883
Let's be real here, would you fuck that Asriel?
I know some chubby chasers would shag that Dinkley looking motherfucker, too.
>>
>>382674527
Relief, because I'm not a huge faggot working on shit that I'd be ashamed to show to other people.
>>
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>>382696721
maybe
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>1999
>chris sawyer creates roller coaster tycoon by himself, using just one additional person for music
>codes it it assembly by himself
>receives mild acclaim

>toby fox makes undertake with pixel graphics half as good as rct
>does it with an engine already complete to make it babby mode for vidya enthusiasts
>GREATEST GAME EVER MADE

ask me how i know videogames are dead
>>
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>>382699663
Sawyer also had to hire a graphics guy. But that doesn't make him any less based.
>>
>>382699663
When has the value of games ever been about how technically impressive they are?
>>
>>382700005
really? cite me on that, i didnt know. also toby did the graphics himself, and, wew, you can tell
>>
>>382700093
when they were good, so, not for about 10 years
>>
>>382699663
roller coaster tycoon was pretty popular
>>
>>382699663
Go create a game yourself and make a ton of money. Pretty simple, everyones doing it.
>>
>>382700228
mild acclaim, not none. you see rct topping any charts like undertale is?
>>
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>>382700095
Simon Foster did the first game's sprites, and you can really fucking tell that he was dropped for RCT2's expansions.
>>
>>382700095
He didn't do all of them. He had both a character designer and a pixel artist helping him.
>>
>>382683598
Such as what? I'm legitimately curious. Only thing I could detect as being Jewish inspired was the name Mettaton but the SMT games also use that name.
>>
>>382700616
dont worry, its /pol/ shits up yet another /v/ thread episode. remember, the pol boogeyman dosent exist!
>>
>>382700401
neat, didnt know that
>>
>>382674913
well, a game could inspire others and could change someone's life
plus, he probably enjoy his work while making shit ton of money
>>
>>382676739

Wrong, bone structure + facial aesthetics + dick size determines your overall attractiveness.
>>
>>382682060
that's because you're too smart
never be too smart
>>
HEY MARGE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utHpb5udZU8
>>
>>382682060
>while addicted to drugs
there's your problem chump
>>
>>382682060
You just have meme depression. You have no actual reason to be depressed.
>>
>>382682060
There has to be something wrong with you on a chemical level or something
ever tried a doctor or pychologist?
>>
>>382674913
You must be the most shallow boring person.
>>
>>382674913
Yep, literally worse than wasting your life on /v/.
>>
>>382674527
LE DETERMINATION XD
>>
>>382682060
>it's so hard being at the top
just fuck off with your non-problems and get some meds for you chemical imbalance faggot
>>
>>382700684
Oy vey, ich wunder who could be behoind this post
>>
>>382674527
respect.

The man made and released a game, and managed to not give a single flying fuck about the haters.
>>
>>382692185
No dude, Undertale is just a game
>>
>>382702474
see?
>>
>>382689727

How old are you now?
>>
>>382702181
this cuts like a knife
>>
>>382702482
>people who havent mined the salt from tobys twitter
lol
>>
>>382682060
what kind of a loser virgin falseflag bullshit is this?
Ive a degree making 70k a year and Im absolutely fucking happy as fuck. rents my own place, owns my own car and can buy all the shit i want. All of my friends from school are like this some are even getting married next month.
I never seen a degree holder struggling with life
>>
>>382703105
You could go to Starbucks and see the people with Art degrees
>>
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>>382674913
>he works in an ear swab factory 8 hours a day
>to make cleaning tools for people who have ear wax

top kek
>>
>>382674527
Relief that I never have to deal with such an obnoxious fanbase for the rest of my life. Could you imagine what it must feel like to know you were partially responsible for stuff like this getting made?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utHpb5udZU8
>>
>>382703604
i have several art degree friends working as art appraisers, in advertising, graphic design, 3D modellers, the dancing degree ones work in theatre as choreographers, they all make mad dosh and super happy but dont hang out in starbucks. I hung out in starbucks sometimes when i studied tho. Are you mistaking poor and bitchy college students as degree holders working their field?
>>
>>382704321
Holy kek, that's so bad it's hilarious
>>
>>382674527
Amusement. Undertale still causing asshurt to this day, almost two years later.
>>
>>382704321
This isn't "cringey fan stuff", its the result of cynical market-research

THIS SHIT however
https://youtu.be/co5Zo6Ng9-c
>>
>>382674527
>kickstarts game
>actually finish and release it
>make millions of dollars
>doesn't make a huge shitty faggot out of himself after his success
He did good
>>
>>382686124
Stop making excuses against improving your life out of laziness
>>
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>>382674527
Ball Game.
>>
>>382674527
Get pisses that this fucker won the internet over with memes and shitty characters instead of a world full hardships and back stabbing friends. Also some pretty good music. Dingaling must be pretty salty
>>
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>>382690012
>couldn't even write his own engine
I don't even have to read the rest of your post. You're an idiot.
>>
>>382703604
As a matter of fact one of my top earning friends is an art degree holder currently working with Apple in their product design department. 350k per year.
His final year project in college was a working prototype of a dualscreen flip phone with components taken out from 2 iphone 4s's. with some dark magic he managed to make it as slim as a regular iphone tho.
>>
>>382699663
>ask me how i know videogames are dead
Video games aren't about technical achievement, they're about design. Always have been, even non-digital games like sports and board games.

You're basically a graphicsfag.
>>
>>382704712
Knew it was German even before I clicked the profile. No sense of cadence of rhythm at all.
>>
>>382681054
i love you bro. hope you are okay.
>>
>>382681054
Make great music, try making pixel art shit, add forced memes and shitty puns and you should be rolling in the dough in no time.
>>
>>382706103
>its still a worthy game if you have fun hammering your dick with a tire iron
technically. but at the end of the day...
>>
>>382674913
>the only thing you want to really accomplish in life is to write a book
>a book
>something that people will read for a couple hours of escapism and never think about again

>the only thing you want to really accomplish in life is to make a movie
>a movie
>something that people will watch for a hours of escapism and never think about again

>the only thing you want to really accomplish in life is to paint a painting
>a painting
>something that people will watch for a minute of escapism and never think about again
>>
>>382707739
jokes on you, I save peoples lives with brain surgery
>>
>>382674527
Despair
>>
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>he made a game with only wet noodles and a few bucks living in the basement of Andrew Hussie
>becomes top seller and GOTY
>meanwhile his master upstairs who had millions of dollars from backers in only two days couldn't get his game done in five fucking years, and got over half of a million dollars stolen freely from The Odd Gentlemen.
>>
>>382674527
MOTIVATION, DEPREDATION, CONSTERNATION, INUNDATION, AGGREGATION
>>
>>382707904
Crushing minorities' skulls with an icepick does not count as brain surgery, Evginy
>>
>>382693196
>>>/lit/
>>
>>382708339
>/lit/
A bunch of hipsters jerking of too Ayn Rand and Lovecraft.
>>
>>382709768
>complains about lit
>fails to spell two 2-3 letter words correctly
wew
>>
>>382709940
:^)
>>
>>382710083
>passive aggressive emote posting when blown the fuck out
>>
>>382674527
Hope for the future that my own personal projects will generate appeal, of course. What kind of loser would be mad?
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