Why'd they ditch the Estus Flask system from the Souls series?

Cause it's a different universe ya dipshit

Same reason you can't rest at lanterns, to artificially make it more similar to Demon's Souls

>>382359108
Because it doesn't fit with in-universe stuff.
There are no bonefires where you can refill your emerald flask with searing hot bone ash.
Here you have blood instead.
You can either use a vial or you can just slash open a foe and bathe in his/her blood for some healing.

>>382359108
Because this is not a Souls game

>>382359108
It's not muh universe like autists are saying. It was an attempt to fix the running-past-enemies problem.

>>382361428
>It was an attempt to fix the running-past-enemies problem.
Did someone from From actually say this?
Because this sounds like something some /v/tard would make up so he can later shit on it for being stupid.

faster paced game combined with the blood bullet system

>>382361428
>>fix the running past enemies problem by making it even more favorable to run past enemies since healing is limited and costs echoes to replenish, so you just sprint to the boss fog so you don't waste consumables.

What did he mean by this?

Blood vials are dumb in any event. They're not scarce in the slightest, if you dump your boss souls on them and bullets every so often you will literally never run out, it's just an unnecessary soul tax the same way being forced to level adaptibility was in Dark Souls 2.

Having to invest a limited resource like humanity to kindle up bonfires, and only then by a limited amount until you'd gone to the catacombs, was a much better system.

The estus and undead bone shards in 3 are just fucking annoying to gather. Makes rolling a new character an utter chore since even if you plow through the bosses you still have to go on the damn scavenger hunt all over again.

>>382363042
>They're not scarce in the slightest,
Half of /v/ will disagree with you judging by the amount of 'OMG WHY DO I HAVE TO FARM VIALS IN BB' threads
>it's just an unnecessary soul tax the same way being forced to level adaptibility was in Dark Souls 2
Retarded comparison. Not leveling ADP leaves everyone with shitty dodge for the whole game while not buying vials doesn't affect anyone who isn't a half asleep retard trying to heal spam through shit instead of learning how to deal with it.
>limited resource like humanity
>limited
>rats respawn forever 20 meters away from the first bonefire after tutorial
And don't give me the 'but new player wouldn't know that' bullshit.
>much better system.
Which allowed shitty and lazy players to chug forever because 'lol free estus' without any punishment.
No, spending 3 humanity per bonefire isn't punishment.

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>>382359108
Because whats more fun then having to travel back to the first lantern to grind blood flasks everytime you die because you didn't perfectly dodge the giant flaily-armed dog's 25 claw swipe combo?

>>382364526
All is does is waste time.

>>382365106
This, it wasn't hard gameplay it was punishing gameplay which isn't good.

shit game
overrated series, how can people enjoy this depressing shit?

>>382359108
Because they created the rally and visceral systems, additionally the use of blood bullets and bloodtinge in general.

The estus system wouldn't have worked for Bloodborne, the same way blood vials wouldn't work for Dark Souls.

>>382359108
Because muh Demon's Souls. That's literally it. Same reason why there's a level-up NPC. It's not because they're mechanically superior (they're obviously not), it's not even because the setting demands it, it's just because of Demon's Souls.

Estus was a superior system. It forced the areas to be balanced around the assumption that you'd have a set amount of health you would be able to regenerate. Farming consumables like in BB and Demon's Souls lets normies grind their way through encounters.

>>382363042
Blood vials aren't scarce when you play now but on release you could carry only around 60 iirc. That would make you think more if you should use it or not and it would compliment overall tone of the game. By raising it to 600 they threw that away just cater people who complained about having to farm them. And those same people still complain.

>>382359108
Not a souls game ya dingus

>>382365843
>it's not because the setting demands it
Actually, in the case of blood vials, it is.

>>382365782
Your post is a non-sequitur, please explain why exactly those systems prevent the implementation of estus.

>>382359108
because

grinding is cool

>>382359108
So that they could actually have items drop from enemies since they couldn't be assed to create armor/weapon drops for enemies.

>>382366046
Oh please, the lore is built around the gameplay, not the other way around. They could have easily made up a reason why blood vials were replenishable.

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>>382365375
>someone typed this comment and it was most likely unironic

How fucking terrible do you have to be at Bloodborne to have to grind blood vials? So many enemies drop them.

Because they're bad people and they want to hurt me.

>>382366405
There is a segment of individuals on this board who, believe it or not, are absolute shit at video games but don't realize it.

>>382366405
Yeah, up to Gascoigne you're set for life with that shit.

>>382359350
>you can't rest at lanterns
this was just bad game design in all honesty

>>382366114
The rally system is a complimentary healing system; having refillable health items AND the ability to regain health from enemies is redundant. When the game originally launched, blood vials were more limited than they are now, and the rally system was necessary if you wanted to save vials for bosses. It's a little less important now, but the idea is generally the same; your healing items are limited, so be more aggressive and learn to regain health from enemies.

Estus system would undermine that even more than having 300+ blood vials in the trunk does. You'd be able to tank your way through levels like Dark Souls, instead of learning that you're supposed to be both aggressive and evasive.

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>>382366405
Fucking this, I hit the 600 storage limit by the time I started NG+

>>382360961

Easy to fix. Eg Add Bloodstations at lanterns that refill your blood estus.

eg2 : Killing people fills up the blood estus.

I know you could pick holes in each of those examples. but if they had designed the game with them in mind, it would be a better game.

>>382366929
Or they could limit you to less than 20, since having that many undermines the point in the first place.

>>382359108
>why isn't this exactly like dark souls!!!!
because it's not, fuck off

>>382366794
want to heal? now you have to endure 2 console loading screens.

>>382366929
Except blood vials are not "limited", you have 20 of them, which is more than enough to tank through any boss that you're not massively underleveled for. The issue isn't the short-term, it's the long-term, when you slowly use up your stock of blood vials while not managing to find new supplies. For plenty of people this doesn't become a problem, but the fact that it can even become a problem in the first place is a flaw with the game.

>>382365853
>It forced the areas to be balanced around the assumption that you'd have a set amount of health you would be able to regenerate. Farming consumables like in BB and Demon's Souls lets normies grind their way through encounters.

Except... for the entirety of the three DaS games you only ever did have a set amount of health in the first few areas of DaS, before accessing Depths and farming Humanities from rats. So your argument is complete fucking bullshit.

>>382367273
FUCKING THIS

>>382367350
>muh rats

False equivalence, you're pretending that a big problem is the same as a small problem. A Souls sequel could easily just not have common enemies drop humanity, but there's no way to get around the farming grass/blood vials problem.

Because it's a shit game with awful design decisions. If this were another developer, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that it was an intentional callback to Demon's Souls. But we're talking about the people who consistently either fuck up the same way over and over or fix something and then fuck it up again anyway in the next installment.

Why can't you rest at lanterns instead of being forced to go back to the dream? Because terrible design decisions. Why do enemies pretty much stop dropping consumable healing items after you leave central yharnam? Because terrible design decisions. Why does a game which tries so hard to put the emphasis on attacking have standard, regular enemies with hyper armor in every single attack? Because terrible design decisions. Why reduce your defensive options to rolling or parrying and yet make parrying cost ammo? Because terrible design decisions.

I'm convinced that liking Bloodborne is a meme. Easily the worst souls-like fromsoft ever made.

>>382367478
(You)

>>382366405

I had to grind vials three times: on Papa G, OoK, and Defiled Hotdog.

>>382366996
>somebody actually spent hours grinding the two bridge werewolves.

>>382367478
(You)

>>382367478

Well it's got an incredible atmosphere, and the combat is much faster and tense than DS. That's why people like it. Great graphics + music too

>>382364526
>while not buying vials doesn't affect anyone who isn't a half asleep retard trying to heal spam through shit instead of learning how to deal with it.
>Which allowed shitty and lazy players to chug forever because 'lol free estus' without any punishment.

And that's another thing: if you ever thought souls players were insufferably smug for claiming a difficult game isn't actually difficult, talk to a bloodborne fan.

>>382367016
I mean, no, blood vials were fine. You really only had to struggle to keep your supply up for maybe the first hour, past that you should be swimming in them. Unless you really suck.

>>382365782
>try to rally back your health
>out of stamina before getting most of that health back
>inevitably get schlonged by the mob of enemies that gathered around
>don't have the blood viles to heal even if you weren't dead before half of their attacks landed
>but get le gud xD

Bloodborne.

>>382367315
>when you slowly use up your stock of blood vials while not managing to find new supplies
How? Practically everything drops them, they're scattered all over the place, and they're cheap as fuck.

>>382367475
>False equivalence, you're pretending that a big problem is the same as a small problem.

I'm refuting the false claim that limited health between bonfires ever was a significant factor in DaS.

And I'll add that Humanity farm was the norm only for PvPers and other tryhards because Estus allowance was incredibly generous once you got past the initial learning curve of the game, and basically replenishing health was hardly ever a problem.

>there's no way to get around the farming grass/blood vials problem.

There was a problem?

Because they needed it to be "not dark souls".

Too bad blood vials are ass compared to estus and any differences it has to it are just for the worse.
Same as with resting on warp points, since there is no in-universe reason resting would heal you they chose to put it into loading screen instead to discourage people from using it that way.

>>382367478
>Why can't you rest at lanterns instead of being forced to go back to the dream? Because terrible design decisions
Agreed.
>Why do enemies pretty much stop dropping consumable healing items after you leave central yharnam?
This is false. So false. There's really no argument besides calling you a liar.
>standard, regular enemies with hyper armor in every single attack
False, but I see where you're coming from. The only thing I can say is you should try paying attention instead of playing it like it's God of War or something.
>Why reduce your defensive options to rolling or parrying and yet make parrying cost ammo?
Because parrying is easy as shit and highly rewarding. It has to have a downside or people would abuse it. Luckily, you can make blood ammo (and even regen the hp with a rally), or get it back with viscerals + runes, or pick up ammo along the way, etc etc so it's actually not a big deal.

But it seems like you're hellbent on being butthurt over mechanics you don't understand so whatever.

>>382366302
>he actually can't tell the difference between hard and punishing
since dodging is free it's not hard at all to stay out of harm's way, but if you don't you get hit really hard
it's there to increase tension but the balance of difficulty-reward is very skewed

>>382367997
If you go into an area where they're a rarer drop, just get unlucky, or if you make the mistake of tackling the chalice dungeons at the same level you acquire them. Also if you're just bad at a boss and keep dying to it over and over, which is a perfectly legitimate issue that can't just be dismissed with "git gud". In Dark Souls if you had trouble with a boss you could just keep fighting them and eventually you would succeed. In DeS and Bloodborne if you get stuck you will eventually run out of healing items and have to go grind, that's not good design.

Again, for plenty of people this never becomes a problem, but it CAN become a problem, and it's a problem that was already solved in DaS.

>>382359108
Because female's menstrual blood is a finite resource

>>382368002
>There was a problem?

Read the goddamn thread.

>>382366405
If blood vials are so plentiful that you never run out then why not just have infinite source of them?
the shift from grass to estus was considered an improvement in just about every way. bringing back the grass mechanics was just bankruptcy of good ideas.

>>382365853
I'm confused as to why you have a problem with somebody worse than you being allowed to finish the game. Besides, running out of grass was rarely the problem in DeS. The challenge is that enemies can do a lot of damage to you, and quickly. No amount of full moon grass is going to help you if you get grabbed by those jailers in Latria. 5-2 is the only place I can think of that's a straight-up matter of grass attrition if you didn't bring enough royal lotus.

>Beat boss
>Level up (or don't)
>Spend the rest of the Echoes on Blood vials

By the time you get halfway through the game you're stocked, literally not a problem whatsoever. Especially with all the vials you pick up on the way.

>>382366929
The problem with the rally system is that being more aggressive isn't hard at all as enemies are really vulnerable.
If something, it just rewards reckless play where taking damage and then spamming R1 allows you to get through shitty encounter with 100%.

>>382368580
>If you go into an area where they're a rarer drop, just get unlucky
That's a bit hyperbolic though, it's not like you can go hours without seeing any vials
>tackling the chalice dungeons at the same level you acquire them
Blood vials are SO plentiful in chalice dungeons it's unreal.
>Also if you're just bad at a boss and keep dying to it over and over
You should be able to pick up vials along the way from enemies, unless you're avoiding them; if you're intentionally avoiding drops AND you keep dying over and over without stopping, it's small wonder you're getting fucked on vials.
>that's not good design
Eh it's fine design if you don't play like an idiot. Your posts basically boil down to:
>I can't faceroll and/or avoid everything at my leisure infinitely

>>382368580
You're assuming I get hit.

>>382368757
I think they used the vial system for people like >>382368580 who keep dying to bosses without making progress. Eventually the game needs to steer the player away somehow.

>>382365853
Grinding rats is a massive pain compared to grinding grass or especially blood vials.

Both DeS and BB suffer from a similar problem, most of the time you have too much healing items trivializing the difficulty or occasionally you run out and then you're fucked for a while.
Dark Souls 3 has the best estus mechanics single-player wise, where you start with some and then get more later on, but never too much.

>>382368975
This desu. You don't NEED to level up, but you do need vials. Don't blow all your echoes on another useless level when you only have 10 vials in the bank.
It's not like the game hides this information from people, they just continue to make knowingly bad choices and then blame the game for not being like Dark Souls.

>>382366929
>having refillable health items AND the ability to regain health from enemies is redundant.
Agreed. Regain is so underutilized. Maybe they should've made it so that using a vial when you have a yellow section will only refill the yellow section, instead of the usual 40%, encouraging players to nut up and hit back.

>>382369534
That's just retarded. So you're having trouble with boss, so instead of trying again til you git gud you're supposed to grind the easy enemies for a while?
It would be unfun and unhelpful.

>>382367534
>>382367647
>I won't or more to the point can't provide counterarguments, so I'll meme it up and hope that his opinion is unpopular enough to make this a viable strategy

Righty-o.

>>382367706
The areas are well designed and I'm sure I'd enjoy the atmosphere an awful lot if it weren't physically painful to play. I don't think it's the framerate itself. Maybe the frame pacing? Some kind of motion blur? Whatever it is, I have to touch the game in bursts or spend the rest of the day with a throbbing headache.

>>382368462
Thank you for providing arguments, but I disagree with them. For starters, it's not like I'm playing with my eyes closed or some shit. I am paying attention, but when every enemy travels in groups and I can't stun them both at the same time, trying to hit one is condemning yourself to being hit by the other. The best you can hope for is a visceral to grant you some momentary invincibility, but unless you've managed to manipulate the enemies to be further apart somehow then the time it took you to shoot is all the time it takes for the other one to be already elbow deep up your ass. And when defensive options are reduced to rolling and parrying, of course people are going to try parrying more. That's just a given, and punishing that is ludicrous. Granted, bullets seem to be a more frequent drop than blood vials so it's not as big of a deal, but I'm against that on principle.

>>382359108
It kind of does.

>Dark Souls 1 you can have up to 20 Estus uses if you got the bonfires upgraded to max. Recharges when you die or rest at bonfire.

>Bloodborne you can carry up to 20 blood vials(or up to 25 with a rune). Restocks when you die or return to Hunter's Dream as long you have any extras in storage.

Works the same way almost.

>>382359108
Because blood vials drop from like every other enemy.

>>382369798
>instead of trying again til you git gud
I mean, you can. You can do that up to 30 times. Past that maybe you need to stop and do something else.

My biggest problem with the vials and bullets is that you don't get any of the ones you used back if you die. And then you're forced to grind again before you make another serious attempt.

>>382369753
What they should have done with regen is make it last longer than 3 seconds. In other games 3 secs would be a long time but in slow-paced games like this you get a hit in if you're lucky and just spam R1, not by trying to be smart with getting damage in without getting wounded.
When the most favorable strategy is also the easiest, you have some critically flawed core design in your game.

>>382368002
I'd argue it's not a problem in DeS because online world tendency already pushes you to +2. Enemies drop grass with greater frequency than do Phish fans who spotted a cop.

because they're retarded and never understood what works or doesn't work from each souls game. they just add or remove features from the formula without ever thinking about how it affects the overall gameplay experience.

>>382369984
Because every bl30 player facing a mid-game boss they have trouble with has 600 vials stacked.

Get real, it's like lives in old games, good players have 99 of them all the time and the bad players who need them the most have the least. The whole mechanic serves nothing meaningful for the gameplay as all it does is further hinder the players already having trouble.

>>382368757
The only legitimate reason I can think of is player psychology. Making it a finite resource adds a layer of stress on the player which contributes to the overall horror-inspired atmosphere of the game.

>>382365106
Why you grinding vials when you can just farm and buy them in bulk?

>>382369863
>every enemy travels in groups and I can't stun them both at the same time
BB is a poke and run game. Dodge in and get a couple hits when it's safe, then dodge out. If you're consistently getting swarmed you need to rethink your strategy.

>>382370037
>And then you're forced to grind again
Why is this such a big deal? How much time would you say you've spent grinding for vials? Across multiple playthroughs on multiple characters up to NG+++, easily hundreds of hours, I'd say I've spent -maybe- an hour total actually looking/grinding for vials.

>>382369195
>That's a bit hyperbolic though, it's not like you can go hours without seeing any vials

You can go hours without getting enough vials to replenish the amount of vials you're expending.

>Blood vials are SO plentiful in chalice dungeons it's unreal.

Not my experience, at least in the very earliest ones.

>You should be able to pick up vials along the way from enemies, unless you're avoiding them; if you're intentionally avoiding drops AND you keep dying over and over without stopping, it's small wonder you're getting fucked on vials.

You're assuming that every area is like the earliest ones where vials are extremely plentiful. Vials still drop but the rate slows down a lot. In any case, having to waste time farming vials between bosses is not fun. People skip past enemies for a reason, it's because they want to fight the boss again, it's not something that needs to be dis-incentivized.

>>382369423
Considering the rally system is built around the fact that players get hit, that's a pretty fair assumption, yes. I'm sure it's theoretically possible to do a no-hit run but that's not something expected of the average player.

>>382369534
I actually had very little trouble with the bosses in BB, I was just highlighting a fundamental problem with BB's mechanics. Just because I have a criticism of the game doesn't mean I thought it was difficult, "git gud" is not an argument. The hardest spot for me was Unseen Village with its respawning enemies that dealt half my health in damage. DLC was a cakewalk by comparison.

>>382370276
I hate to admit it but this. Gameplay wise, what made DaS and DeS good seems more like luck than intentional design. Their skill and care at gameplay design is rubbish in comparison to their visual, level, world and lore design.

>>382370378
If you're having trouble to the point where you're out of vials you should probably go somewhere else in the game or take a break or something. You can argue that you should be able to infinitely bash your head against a boss until you get good RNG and eke out a win, but that doesn't sound fun to me. Vials are the game's way of saying "dude, just stop"

Reminder that a very vocal minority pushes the blood vial scarcity. The early enemies pre-sundown all shit out vials that you should have more than enough. I do not get this meme honestly.

I'm gonna admit straight up that I was really bad at BB, but I spent upwards of 3 hours fighting ludwig over and over and had to grind like once. Do people really just grab 20 vials and then think "yeah time to take on that boss again" and then get mad that when they die again they have to go back to get more vials? Why not grind till you have enough for a bunch of runs and then go fight the boss you're stuck on?

>>382370469
I am an average player that rises to the challenge. There's no excuse for anyone else other than them being lazy.

>>382370806
Hell, even if the night enemies don't just shit vials, they drop enough blood echoes that you can just buy more.

>>382370469
>You can go hours without getting enough vials to replenish the amount of vials you're expending.
You must have a bugged version where vials drop at a tenth of the normal rate.

>>382370671
>If you're having trouble to the point where you're out of vials you should probably go somewhere else in the game or take a break or something.
How is that supposed to help in any way at beating the boss you need to beat?
>Vials are the game's way of saying "dude, just stop"
Vials work the way they do because they couldn't copy dark souls design so they used the only other system they really knew. It doesn't benefit the game's design in any way, but it is technically different which was important to them.

>>382370806
This, in Central Yharnam all mobs apart from townsfolk, crows and the sewer crawlers drop vials in stacks of 2+, with body pickups of 6 vials littered through cathedral ward.

How is that not enough

>>382370895
The point is that it's a dumb mechanic. Grinding isn't fun. If it just reset you to everything you had before the boss like every other game, it'd be fine.

because it was easily the worst part about dark souls

xbox was a mistake

>>382370990
In my first playthrough, I got annoyed that the cap was 20 because I had so many vials automatically taken to storage. These "grinding for vials" posts are pure bait.

>>382370895
The issue is more about why is the game ever designed to put you in a spot where grinding makes sense when in the whole rest of the series it's almost completely unnecessary as well as ineffective.

>>382371089
>How is that supposed to help
I guess it doesn't, you should just keep running into that wall then bro.
>Vials work the way they do because
Nice, I didn't know you sat in on the design meetings at From. Tell me more.

>>382363042
>Having to invest a limited resource like humanity to kindle up bonfires

Humanity ain't limited. You can farm them from rats in the Depths and then return to the bonfire that is in the Depths and rinse and repeat.

>>382371238
>>382371108
Seems like vials exist to stop you from infinitely repeating a boss with no variation in strategy, since that's really the only way you could ever plausibly run out.

>>382371279
>wall
>implying
You can defeat the bosses massively underleveled if you know their moves.
Even the dumbest fuck can figure out a pattern eventually, why would you want to discourage them if they want to keep trying?
>Nice, I didn't know you sat in on the design meetings at From. Tell me more.
Oh the irony.

>>382371089
The vials are designed (imo) to actually stop people from grinding boss fights, forcing you to think about the fight and not tanking hits.

Why so many people feel the need to not dodge I don't know.

>>382371662
>Why so many people feel the need to not dodge I don't know
A parry system that encourages you to stand still?

>>382371637
>You can defeat the bosses massively underleveled if you know their moves.
Exactly
>Even the dumbest fuck can figure out a pattern eventually
You're right
>why would you want to discourage them if they want to keep trying?
Because if it gets to the point where they run out of vials, which are literally the cheapest and most plentiful resource in the game, they probably need to wake up and do something different
>Oh the irony
No you're right, obviously it was designed the way it was because they're hacks and they knew it. Crawl out of your own ass, please.

>>382371471
By the time you've kicked capra demon's ass having a lot of slow healing items is barely beneficial. Useful in a crutch but no replacement for estus in combat. Overwhelming majority of players having trouble with the game would instead return to bonfire instead of spending humanity.

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>Struggle through the game on enemies like Ebrietas and some other areas with assholes and poison.
>Need to grind Blood vials like 20 times
>Underleveled and leveling up wrong
>After getting my shit kicked in i decide to do the last 3 essential CD
>mfw one level gives me enough Echoes to buy a 100 vials and level up like 6 things
>mfw i could have just killed like 5 enemies in the CD and i would have money to buy 100 Blood Vials
>mfw i reach Gerhman with 130 SL and 400 blood vials
>mfw i suffered on Ebrietas that fucking slut with retarded tentacles for nothing

>>382371905
>obviously it was designed the way it was because they're hacks
seems more likely than your retarded assumption considering nothing in how the system works supports it.
>they probably need to wake up and do something different
again, grinding easy enemies is unfun and unhelpful, so why?

>>382372146
>nothing in how the system works supports it
Except for examples that you and I both gave. Your arguments for "people might suck against bosses" is EXACTLY why I feel they were designed to be finite.
>grinding easy enemies is unfun and unhelpful, so why
Again, running into the same boss time and again without changing strategy is unfun and unhelpful and autistic so why?
>b-b-b-but what if I really suck, why won't the game hold my hand and let me fight the same way over and over and over and over and over and over and over until I finally win? Why doesn't From want me to try infinitely without variation?
Fucking retard.

>>382367540
Fuck Orphan of Kos. That boss keeps kicking my ass even when I have people co-oping with me. First phase isn't bad but the 2nd phase which it transforms pisses me off because it never cuts a break which make it almost impossible to evade and heal.

Old Hunters expansion can eat a dick. Fuck Ludwig, fuck Maria, and fuck Orphan of Kos and their spastic AI which can get you killed fast.

>>382370446
>farming vials
>farming echoes for vials
whats the difference?

>>382371662
20 vials give you so much room to just keep tanking hits though.
it's not like fighting artorias in das where how much estus you brought doesn't really matter as you barely get a chance to heal anyways and avoiding damage in the first place is the key, while vials are quick to throw and getting out of harm's way to do it is easy.
capping how many vials you can bring lower but making them more effective would have been better if you ask me. you'd have to think more when to use one and also take potentially bigger risks with letting your health drop more to get more effective use of them.
>>382372517
>"people might suck against bosses" is EXACTLY why I feel they were designed to be finite.
So people who suck can try less and suck even more? Nice.
>
How is grinding easy enemies variety in strategy? Your answer doesn't excuse the problem in the design in any way.