YOU ARE SUCH A BAD DOCTOR

>>382114382
thanks for telling me Hitler's Jewfort server is still up and running in Australia, other anon

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problems with tf2 classes:
>Scout
has some broken as fuck unlocks.
>Soldier
so versatile you never have a reason to not pick him since there's no risk of being soft countered.
>Pyro
Too good against bad players when used by a bad player, too bad against good players when used by a good player, buggy, basically a worse version of every class when it comes to doing useful things.
>Demo
stickies are slightly too good on defense compared to their offensive capabilities, slowing down the game.
>Heavy
Uninteresting to play as and against (a slow, low-counterplay, hitscan high DPS damage sponge). low skill floor and low skill ceiling; too good on defense, too weak on offense.
>Engie
Low skill floor and low skill ceiling; too good on defense, too weak on offense.
>Medic
Absolutely mandatory to win, which means you're forced to play him, even if you don't enjoy it, to have a chance. Suffers from "One Viable Loadout" syndrome.
>Sniper
Low-counterplay design, there's very little you can do to deal with a Sniper picking you off from long range. Balanced due to his skill requirement, but inherently unfair.
>Spy
Worse version of Sniper when getting picks for most intents and purposes, since he has to get into close range to do what Sniper can do from long range.

How to fix these things? Hit me.

>>382115812
I think you've made some good points

What mode are you talking about though? Are you talking about a standard 12v12 control point / attack/defend thing or the 6v6 comps that no one plays?

I think that if you're thinking about fixing the game you should define what mode you're talking about first.

One thing I'll say is that the game being balanced entirely around one class (medic) is a thing, It's just you have healing/ubers or you don't. Either I guess you have to accept that that is going to be the design of the game, or you have to A)Make strategies that can counterplay medic strategies without having a medic or B)Make it so there's another healing class

>>382115812
>Scout
mostly fine, he's a glass cannon with glass bones and paper skin but he can deal a lot of damage to people who are unaware or who can't aim.
>Soldier
No idea what to do about him, the problem is that he's very good for both pushing and defending, he can literally fulfill any role.
>Pyro
Well, you can start by fixing his glitches and returning the degreaser + axetinguisher combo
>Demo
Just fine, he takes skill
>Heavy
His incoming buff might fix him
>Engie
He's fine
>Medic
You right, a team that has a healer has a huge advantage over a team that doesn't, but that's not really a problem, nor should you remove this advantage. It is possible to win a game without a medic especially on defense, but it is much harder.
>Sniper
Balanced because skill requirement, you can counter him by going sniper yourself or spy
>Spy
Pretty awful overall, but I don't know what could be done about him. He's a very hard character to balance because he can turn invisible, disguise, and insta-kill people. Any changes to him risk making him too powerful

>>382116179
I'm talking about the game holistically, over all playercounts and all modes of play. In some modes, for example Payload, Engineer and Heavy may not have those listed problems, but in other modes like 5CP, CTF and Koth they do.

In fact, Engie and Heavy's current state, plus the removal of all-class grenades (not that I'm saying they should come back) ruined Capture the Flag as a mode for TF2, when it worked amazingly in Quakeworld Team Fortress Original and Half-Life Team Fortress Classic.

The shift to greater defensiveness on Demo's, Heavy's and Engie's part is why TF2 symmetrical modes are so stalemate-prone, except Koth, of course.

>>382116806
>but that's not really a problem, nor should you remove this advantage
Let's say you want to play a game of TF2. Now, naturally, you want to win, but you also want to play a certain class on that day that isn't Medic.

The other team has 2 Medics. Yours have none. And nobody on your team wants to play Medic, either, because his design isn't very popular for most. They want to do their own thing.
So you're forced to play a class you don't enjoy, or be guaranteed to lose.
That's not a good game design there. We can do better.
>It is possible to win a game without a medic especially on defense, but it is much harder.
This is why making Engineer, Demo, and Heavy more offensive and less defensive will reduce the absolute necessity of having a Medic.
>you can counter him by going sniper yourself or spy
Oh yeah, absolutely, I'm just complaining about his low counterplay if you don't want to play as Spy or Sniper that day. I can't really see what can be done about it, though.

>>382114382
LAUGHTER REALLY IS THE BEST MEDICINE!
>I'm good!
SEE?

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>>382114382
>that feel when Espionage mod will never be finished

>>382115812
>Pyro
I always felt like pyro was fine because new people need an accessible, low-skill ceiling class to play before moving onto something better, but retarded noobs just play sniper/spy only.

>Medic
Make him actually fun and satisfying to play like Overwatch healers so people will be more inclined to be him on each team.

>Spy
Add any combination of these:
-Cloak makes you move faster
-Cloak has light damage resistances (10-33%)
-Cloak can phase through people for significant meter cost
-Decloak sound is quieter/gone
-Buff or create a revolver that does extra damage against buildings

>>382117854
I feel like we also have heavy available if people need a really basic class, and yeah, it seems like retards prefer sniper/spy.
>Make him actually fun and satisfying to play
good solution; how would you go about doing it, though?
>-Buff or create a revolver that does extra damage against buildings
enforcer might be a good candidate since right now it's fucking useless

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>>382115812
>sniper useful half of the time instead of 1%
>demo not on the same tier soldier is
>Spu "Worse version of Sniper"
>pyro " too bad against good players when used by a good player,"

You don't know SHIT
About Team Fortress 2

>>382115812
>Scout
Crit-a-cola is getting nerfed to a reasonable level, which is good. Other unlocks didn't really need that much nerfing, but apparently they're getting it anyway. As for primaries, I'd say FaN has too much oneshot potential. Maybe lower its damage and instead have it reload faster?

>Soldier
There's no going back. You can't exactly delete his versatile array of unlocks and you can't introduce a meaningful counter without overhauling the game. At best you can lower his damage a bit, but as if that would ever happen.
>Pyro
Don't you worry, Valve is on this job!
>Demo
Stickies are fine on defense, they're supposed to be traps in the first place. Maybe increase their hitbox so a single shotgun blast takes out more of them.
>Heavy
An opportunity was already lost here. He would have benefited more from the charge maneuver, instead the scotsman got it.
>Medic
He's too powerful, plain and simple. But he's such a holy cow that Valve is afraid to nerf his heals in any way.
>Engi
He's mostly fine, the only issue is wrangler giving him way too much tanking potential. That weapon could use a different secondary effect.
>Sniper
Every rifle should have a trail and it should stay in the air longer, warning everyone about a sniper sightline.
>Spy
Make him lean toward a pick/support hybrid. Sapper is already the first step.

>>382116806
wait, they killed degreaser/axetinguisher? why

>>382118432
Because for everyone but the heavy, it was as if Pyro became a Spy who could frontstab on demand.

>>382114382
>tfw heavy wont play you a day to remember song.
FML

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>>382118089
>>sniper useful half of the time instead of 1%
If you're good. We are of course talking good players here, because you balance around good players. Sniper is strong enough in the hands of a very good player to sometimes get used full-time in competitive play, and in Highlander he's considered the strongest class.
>>demo not on the same tier soldier is
Demo is considered the weakest competitive class, which makes him the 4/9th strongest class in TF2. He's got no straight upgrade to his melee (unlike Soldier with the Escape Plan/Disciplinary Action), and he's soft countered by Scout, thus running a selection risk, while Soldier is soft countered by nobody.
>>Spu "Worse version of Sniper"
Yes. When you learn how to spell Spy, maybe you'll learn that a pick class who has to be in melee range and have surprise to attack is generally inferior to a pick class who can attack from far away, without the element of surprise, quicker and more safely.
>pyro " too bad against good players when used by a good player,"
Yes. If you disagree you have never tried to use Pyro against good players as a good player. Which, judging by the rest of your hilariously smug AND incorrect post, you haven't.

So in fact, it's incredibly ironic that you say I don't know shit about Team Fortress 2 when I'm probably among the most knowledgeable people in the world on this particular game, and I just proved you wrong on every point, fagola.

>>382118432
Because it was better than Pyro's
Unfortunately, they made two mistakes.
>1: They nerfed it by giving it active downsides (which make the weapon less effective and more boring), instead of passive downsides (which make the weapon balanced and encourage you to use it),
>2: They forgot to buff Pyro's Flamethrower to compensate for their nerfing of one of the only things keeping it relevant.

Axtinguisher is actually balanced in-slot now. However, it is not interesting to use, and Pyro is an underpowered class still.

>>382114382
Team Fabulous 2 was Kitty's magnum opus and it still manages to make me giggle like an idiot even after 5 years.

>>382119582
Ikr he's friggin talented at making stupid funny videos.

>>382118131
>As for primaries, I'd say FaN has too much oneshot potential
Nah, FaN is actually one of Scout's weaker primaries. The top Scouts in the game hardly ever touch it, despite it being unbanned, because the only place it's better than Scattergun is point blank, yet its entire shtick is knocking people further away! It's not a problem.
>At best you can lower his damage a bit, but as if that would ever happen.
True.
>Maybe increase their hitbox so a single shotgun blast takes out more of them
I like this idea a lot.
>That weapon could use a different secondary effect
What would you suggest?
>Make him lean toward a pick/support hybrid
Nice, that would let him step out of Sniper's shadow a bit more.

>>382114382
AND I FEEL LIKE I'M SO ALONE ON THIS 15 HOUR DRIVE

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>>382114382
Would you fucc?

tfw ran tf2 maxed out at 150fps+ at all times back in 2009-2012 and now cant get past 120 on medium settings with dips to 40s

what the fuck happened?

>>382115812
>that spy comment

Spy is basically good if your not a pro sniper, the ambassador is basically a sniper, and you can get better angles because of your cloak and disguises.

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>>382120851
I want her to step on my face and use me as a footstool the entire time she commentates on the matches.

Older women with heels are top tier, especially when they take them off.

>>382119658
He WAS friggin talented.
F

>>382121426
We're talking about good players here. An Ambassador Spy is inferior to an actual Sniper, who outputs much better DPS and actually has a scope, since Spy isn't built for Sniping. Disguises rarely work against skilled players, and any Ambassador Spy trying to get a "better angle" is going to get rushed down by the Scouts immediately.

>>382119546
the problem with pyro melee is that the powerjack is the only choice

the runspeed is just too useful for flanking and getting around, it needs to be nerfed or (ideally) baked in before any other melee choice can be used

People who want the game balanced around high level / competitive need to fuck off to a different game

Fun fact, the TF2 classes match the Quake 3 Arena weapons in basic attack style.

>Melee/Melee/Melee: Gauntlet, Knife.
>Object/Burst/Ranged: BFG10K, Level 3 Sentry Rockets.
>Object/Burst/Close: Grenade Launcher, Grenade Launcher.
>Object/Sustained/Ranged: Rocket Launcher, Rocket Launcher.
>Object/Sustained/Close: Plasma Gun, Syringe Gun.
>Hitscan/Burst/Ranged: Railgun, Sniper Rifle.
>Hitscan/Burst/Close: Shotgun, Scattergun.
>Hitscan/Sustained/Ranged: Machine Gun, Minigun.
>Hitscan/Sustain/Close: Lightning Gun, Flamethrower.

>>382123821
Make sense because the TF1 classes are based on the Quake 1 arsenal

>>382123614
too bad, because Valve is going to balance the game around competitive, and there's nothing you can do about it.

Either get on board with us, the people who are trying to negotiate balance so that both pub and comp players are happy, or get left behind.

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>>382123897
Yeah, it's really cool to see how they line up, how the playstyles have sort of been passed down all the way since Doom's (and Wolfenstein's) rockets, plasma, shotgun, minigun.

Team Fortress as a mod was inspired by a Doom .wad called FORTRESS.WAD, whose layout was used in 2fort, and the concept of classes in Hexen: Beyond Heretic.

Lads

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1W5DU4zmAA

>>382125356
>hats aren't the only way the art style has changed

>>382125356
honestly the viewmodel medigun looks nicer
but yeah, what the fuck

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>>382125356
Jesus, I didn't realize there used to be so much detail

>>382125356
the Knife and Sapper changes honestly aren't that unreasonable; performance is a valid concern, and nobody notices missing Sapper gibs.
same goes for that weird grunt on falling.

>>382125914
How is the knife change reasonable? The spy was clearly animated for the bigger model

>>382125356
>doesn't show how there was a hidden ultra high texture option

>>382115812
Pyro needs to straight up counter Demomen, give him like a vacuum cleaner that sucks up stickies/pills and shoots them back in the new Pyro update.

For Spy, he shouldn't be countered so simply (not being a braindead noob), quicker and quieter cloaking would be a good step to start. Straight up nerfing the DR/Ambassador is not a good direction to go (not saying Im against changing them, but nerfs should be compensated, like if the DR cant recharge with ammo anymore, it should recharge a little quicker on its own)

>>382118089
You're an idiot and a faggot.

>>382126053
the bigger model looks weird, like they made it slightly too large on release and came back to fix it later.

The old knife is so big it clips right through his cuff and hands, and is way too bulky to do butterfly knife tricks with.

Look: https://youtu.be/w1W5DU4zmAA?t=124 Meanwhile the new knife barely clips with his hand at all.

You're just trying to find fault with Valve, you should give them credit when they do the right thing, and it'll make your criticism when they do the wrong thing more meaningful and listened to.

>>382126570
I disagree with your first para, since Demo already has a counter (Scout) and it wouldn't be good to give him another (then he'd be countered by 2 classes), but agree with your second. DR and Amby should get reworks, not nerfs.

>>382123164
yeah, I think the Flamethrower should be buffed so that Pyro doesn't rely on Powerjack to prop it up, and then we can nerf Powerjack

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Which is best?

>>382128347
"gggggyggly"wash

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>>382117489
They said on facepunch (apparently) that they actually want to make it real but on the Source 2 engine eventually.
Also it's really sad, i always wanted a Trouble in terrorist town standalone game.

>>382119336
>Demo is considered the weakest competitive class

Wrong

>>382129872
Who is considered the weakest cookie cutter class then? Enlighten us, anon.
>>382129585
Yeah it's a bit depressing, the design document they had laid out looked great.

>>382114382
[Boo noises]

I've been sitting in competitive queue for the past 7 minutes. Is this mode dead? I get like instant queues for casual.

>>382129985
Scout by a long shot

when you off class you drop a scout not the roamer or the demo

you iron league fuck

>>382115812
The main issue with the spy is giving him something that rewards skill.
If you give him passive buffs, you enable the already colossal legion of shitters that play him exclusively

>>382130483
You're literally retarded, scout is considered the strongest class and medic the most indispensable, (you) iron league fuck.
the only reason you don't drop demo is because he's classlimited to 1 (to prevent stalemates due to his defensive usage) so you'd be losing what he brings to the table entirely if you replaced him, whereas you can replace a scout with an offclass and still have another scout.

>>382125356
>That awful grunt sound when falling

Good, fuck off with that crap sound effect

Only truly lame thing i miss is the bottle breaking

>>382130540
what if you gave him passive buffs that only help his teamwork abilities, rather than himself in getting kills

>>382130748
>scout is better
>still the sub class

The only time scouts are god tier is on open maps or when you have an aimbot on your team

demo gets damage more consistency and is near impossible to shut down if the pocket has better aim then the opposed scout pair

>>382130898
Maybe a throwable sapper, like in Meet the spy? Ideally it would recharge in a similar way to the flying guillotine, sacrificing spam potential for utility.
Would punish engineers who rely solely on awkward angles, force pyros to not just hug nests, and allow a spy to cause havoc in a push without being blatantly obvious.

>>382131180
>>scout is better
>>still the sub class
Since you're not capable of reading I'll reiterate. scout has a duplicate to sub. demo doesn't. you can have offclass/demo/scout (good, well rounded), or you can have offclass/scout/scout (not well rounded, lose your defensive element).

Scout will the majority of the time beat demo and soldier and medic in a straight fight, and is the only class who benefits from the recent medic tether buff.
>demo gets damage more consistency
damage is not the only factor in how good a class is considered. in fact since the nerf scouts and soldiers outdamage demos a lot more often.

Scout is TF2's best DM class and best objective capping class.

One last thing I forgot to mention is that when matchmaking dropped you'd often see teams of 6 scouts when limits were removed. not once did i see a team of 6 demos, even when playing against top rank people.

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>>382114382
I FEEL ASLEEP WITH THE LIGHTS ON
AND I CAN SEE THAT YOU'RE THE FIRST ONE IN A LONG TIME
THAT HAD SOME FAITH IN ME

Favorite weapon and favorite map

>Vaccinator
>cp_steel

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>>382134770
LITERALLY me

>>382134770
you must like complex things? i like loose cannon and cp_process

How bout they buff pyro to become a specialized soldier killer?

>>382125356
What the fuck, you can't pick up weapons for ammo anymore?

>>382135731
maybe but then if you make pyro the soldier softcounter, who is soldier going to softcounter

id rather just buff pyro in general and buff spy in general (which would be an indirect pyro buff), thus making both of them more relevant in their softcounter loop

>>382136224
Players now drop a medium ammo pack plus a weapon you can pick up from the ground to exhange with your own.

>>382135696

Complex as in vaccinator or steel? Vaccinator can be a bit complicated at first I suppose, steel isn't that hard to figure out though.

>there are people who are starting to bitch about the vaccinator being op

here we go again

>>382136753
it's mostly comp players bitching about it being difficult for low level players to get used to.
I say let them learn it.
This is the one case the 6s community aren't being elitist when they should be.

Also they complained about it having compensation for uber disadv., but I don't think this is really a legit complaint since its miniubers are like 2.5 seconds each and you always have mixed damage sources in 6s.

Vaccinator's a great design and should be buffed if anything, it punishes class stacking, encourages teamwork, and it's Medic's most skilled and interesting Medigun that actually takes brains to use effectively.

>>382136753
Oh and it counters hackers.
So it's good all-round.

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>>382128347
>one of my favorite maps
>still not played in 6s or HL
Side note: there seriously needs to be another constantly used koth map that isn't fucking product.

>>382137681
>Side note: there seriously needs to be another constantly used koth map that isn't fucking product.
true, if only bagel and ramjam wasn't shit.

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What happened?

>>382136753

I've been using the vaccinator since near the time it first came out and it's been pretty much my exclusive medigun. In the right hands of a good pair it's incredibly powerful, especially if both are skilled and know how to downplay it's weaknesses, but with that said I hardly ever run into anyone using it and most people I see using it are absolute garbage. I'm not trying to inflate my dick, but I've just never run into anyone using it at the level me and my pocket do and if you're not excelling with it you're probably better off with another medigun. It's also pretty much best against bad players, a good player could counter it a bit.

>>382137959

Map has a nice aesthetic, but isn't balanced at all, Hydro goes one of two ways, a complete stalemate or one team dominates the other.

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>>382137959
someone set up us the stalemate.
main screen turn on.
it's you.
hello mentlegen.
all your territory are belong to us.

>revert mym changes, unlockables balanced for 12v12 play and not for comp
>comp is to be played stock only bar some skins (gun mettle/botkiller skins allowed, but the original not)
>Make TF2 the greatest in the niche of highly chaotic multiplayer game like before
There, TF2 is saved. Now comp is determined fully by skills and not by gimmick unlocks and casual is pure fun.

>>382138692
here's that (you) you wanted

>>382138789
-30 Internets
No arguments pro or against are found

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>I's a "guy on enemy team gets super salty" episode

>>382137959
They designed the perfect map. Perfectly balanced. No team could gain an advantage and win.

>>382139062
30 is harsh dude. Stop.

>>382125356
I dont give a fuck what this faggot thinks desu

>>382140950
You can't stop me, cause I already did it.

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>>382140216
>get a couple of lucky headshots on enemy sniper
>he accuses me of hacking
>starts using an aimbot himself

>>382142046
Thanks for standing still

Wanker

>>382125356
Why the fuck would they change the revolver animation???

>>382117489
That janitor is just Cave Johnson

Deepest lore

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surprise

>>382129585
I always wanted to love TTT but everyone that plays it is a goddamn paranoid prick/asshole, I've played it for a while and I still never managed to kill anyone not even by accident, while they can kill me seemingly in one hit from across the room

>>382115812
heavy is the best class and people who can't figure out how to play him are cucks

>>382143282
The old one made it cover the screen.

>>382144276
BUTTSECKS
BUTTSECKS
B-B-B-B-B-B-B-BUTTSECKS

>>382116806
>implying sticky spam takes skill

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>>382144805
finally some sense within this madness.