Why do MMOs feel so empty now?

Every MMO but WoW and FFXIV are ghost towns unless you play on some donate to win private server

FAGGOTS WITH THEIR VENTS AND FUCKING CHAT SERVERS AND SKYPE

FUCK YOU GAME KILLING FAGGOTS EVERY DEV NEEDS TO PATCH IN SOMETHING SO THESE THINGS CANT WORK WHEN BLAYING THE GAME

FUCK YOU GAME DESTROYING FAGGOTS USE IN GAME THINGS TO BUILD COMMUNITY FUCKING REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>>380988617

Someone resub WoW with me and lets meet in moonguard Goldshire

>>380988738
Get off vent or I'll have you bent

>>380988617
What are you talking about? Runescape towns are still very active, stop playing on low pop servers.

And with WoW, the game world has quintupled since Vanilla, the playerbase halved, and queues have been added, so that's just a matter of poor game design on blizzard's part.

There are still many MMOs that do "community" very well, just go look for them

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ffxiv is pretty active

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>>380989015

So glad I stopped playing MMOs. Christ alive

>>380989220
I bet you dont even enjoy the time youre not spending playing mmos.

>>380989015

yea but its slow and fucking boring.

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They had to cut out all of that pesky gameplay to allow people to properly enjoy the gear treadmill.

>>380989350
just like your mom in bed last night

Blizzard saw the success of EQ and thought, "What if we took EQ and made it completely soloable and extremely casual?".

Blizzard then released World of Warcraft to great success enticing people who normally couldn't dedicate enough time to MMOs before it.

The issue here is that World of Warcraft broke all the rules of what makes MMOs MMOs.
>No need for player interaction
>Extensive use of built-in fast travel (not player run)
>No penalty upon dying
>Monsters aren't difficult to kill nor pose any danger
And it only got worse from there as the game went on..
>Cross server content
>Dungeon finder
>Portals in every major city to every major city
>Flying mounts

WoW turned modern "MMOs" into Facebook/MSN/Myspace.

Now every other AAA publisher saw what Blizzard did and wanted to make a quick buck as well. So for the next 10 years we got these HUGE budget WoW clones expecting to build up the same subscription numbers as Blizzard. Well it turns out that the target audience wasn't as big as these companies expected and almost every single one of these games crashed and burned.

Meanwhile anyone still playing MMOs before WoW are growing up. They don't have 8 hours a day to put into FFXI/EQ/DaoC/etc. They start playing WoW/WoW-clones as well. Younger people have no idea what MMOs were before WoW and play WoW-clones as their "first" MMOs.

We'll never get another true AAA MMO, but that's okay. There are some niche games coming from veteran developers who worked on the classics. Pantheon, Ashes of Creation, Camelot Unchained, etc. And bigger publishers are starting to get more experimental, but unfortunately still playing it too safe with how casual the games are. We should be happy with that. In the meanwhile, private servers like project99 are extremely populated and great fun.

It could be a while, but there'll be a return of true MMOs.

>>380988617
Catering to normies. This is literally the reason. Back in the day the only people who really had time to play MMOs were teenagers and NEETs. Thus, in order to keep them playing doing anything required a huge time sink and multiple players, making real social connections.

But There's only so much NEETbucks to go around and blizzard realized designing everything to be as time consuming as possible was scaring normies away. So they casualized it, starting slowly and increasing until things just got easier and easier, focusing on solo content because getting a group going to do that raid took too long. This made it so normal players could actually log in a few hours a week and get things done. It just had the side effect of destroying everything special about the games to begin with. Unfortunately there is no turning back, MMOs have seen the money that comes with this sort of design and unless you yourself are still a NEET you probably don't even have time to play one of these games any more.

Just keep fantasizing about the good old days anon. You can never go back.

>>380989463
basically sandbox mmos went extinct because modern players don't have the patience for them. we live in a age where everything is fast paced and delivered instantly.

>>380988885
my fucking sides were blown apart you summarise that entire post with a golden meme

fucking IQ of 250 over here guys unbelievable

>>380989463

None of this was true in vanilla. Everything went to shit years later.

>>380989301

It's less miserable and that'll have to do.

>>380988617
Game worlds became too big and centred around specific locations.

>>380989628
>No need for player interaction
>Extensive use of built-in fast travel (not player run)
>No penalty upon dying
>Monsters aren't difficult to kill nor pose any danger
These were all true in Vanilla.

>>380988617
Fuck me, I wanna play Warcraft 3. Why am I so shit at RTS?

I would kill for a new good MMO to come out, years ago when I was in school I wanted to have a paid off house in the woods living a simple life and playing WoW stress free, now that I am at the point where I can afford a place to live and have my financials under control I'm totally burned out on WoW.

>>380989417
What gameplay?
More recent mmos are starting to have decent gameplay, the problem is most of them haven't put as much though into enemy and encounter design. So you end up getting shit like black desert where the gameplay is great but the mobs are the same braindead no challenge shit as every other mmo.

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Because they decided to give everybody convenience and instant gratification, which means you don't need to interact with anybody anymore.

Back then.
>Go to a big city to buy and sell shit at the auction house
>Go to any town to sell trash loot and craft items
>Hang out in whatever town that's closest to the dungeon, so you can run there quickly.

Now
>Instantly buy or sell anything anywhere using the auction house menu button.
>Instantly craft anything anywhere because you can summon anvils and cauldrons and shit
>Find a group for a dungeon by clicking the dungeon button and get automatically assigned and teleported into the dungeon from anywhere in the world.

the problem is that people have unrealistic expectations from mmo development teams. they want content faster than it can be created

>>380989750
>No need for player interaction
Except grouping for quests was common
>No penalty upon dying
Objectively false, the degree is different but it is still a pentalty.
The others are various swathes of subjective and travel systems are an incredibly hard to thing to tune properly, I think Vanilla got it right with 1 or two per zone.

maybe because 12 years ago you didnt have as many MMO's as you have today

>It's another /v/ discusses mmos thread but are completely fucking oblivious to them and still clinging onto decade old nostalgia and dreams

>>380989998
>Except grouping for quests was common
The only quests you needed to group for were dungeon quests.

No one would ever group of quests because you'd get an extreme hit in exp from mobs which can be easily soloed.

>Objectively false
Losing durability and having to run to your corpse for 30 seconds is not a penalty. That's a privilege.

>>380990096
>It's another WoW-babby pretending he somehow knows better than people who have been playing MMOs for 17+ years.

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Come play on Project 1999. We had a wedding and a huge PVP brawl last night. 1000 players average during US Hours, 1500-2000 during peak, always groups to pick from.

Classic EQ.

>>380990298
>playing MMOs for 17+ years
that's not something to be proud of you retard, you wasted your fucking life.

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>>380989654
>less miserable

>>380990358
And there goes your shitty argument right out the window!

>>380990494
just like your life went out the window long ago mr.mmo loser

>>380988617
because everyone knows MMOs are an endless grind to get gear to defeat encounters to get gear. the only way out is to break the cycle.

>>380990196
>The only quests you needed to group for were dungeon quests.

There were a few vanilla quests here and there that had elite NPCs that needed a group to kill.

>LGF OTTO AND FALCONCREST

>LFG BORELGORE AND DUSKWING

>>380990672
MMO's that exist right now are like that, they don't have to be though, they don't even need to be about combat or raids.

>>380989463
oh non the wow boogey man

>>380990196
>The only quests you needed to group for were dungeon quests.
>No one would ever group of quests because you'd get an extreme hit in exp from mobs which can be easily soloed.
Outright false
>Losing durability and having to run to your corpse for 30 seconds is not a penalty. That's a privilege.
Semantics, still not in tune with reality.

For WoW I understood the dungeon finder, it was retarded spamming general chat in hopes of finding a group.
Looking for Raid was the absolute worst decisison however. The first raid tier since its introducion the game lost its mystique.
There was no revelation of your first raid clear with your guild, everyone had already seen the raid in lfr. The first experience you got to a raid was this shitfest with strangers you hated.

Raiding was always the end game, you always had something to look forward to which meant there was content you could experience. After LFR no, you saw it all, why bother anymore.

>>380990196
>i didn't play vanilla

MMOs died with City of Heroes.

>>380989618
Thanks, I try

>>380990932
>thread is about mmos "now"
>"but vanilla"

>>380988617
>Why do MMOs feel so empty now?
Elysium and Anathema vanilla wow servers are so packed that I fucked off to a less populated one.

No idea about retail wow, other than if you wonder why everyone left it it's because it systematically ruined everything that made it fun with each subsequent expansion and patch.

>>380991139
>>380989750
You can't backtrack on that.

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>MMOs are dead, empty, and extin-

>>380991139
try reading who i'm replying till you figure out why i mentioned vanilla shill

>>380990845
>Semantics
Semantics are facts now? Interesting.

>Outright false
What? Did you play vanilla? Being in a party induced a HUGE exp penalty to mob exp.

>>380988617
you can only do the repetitive grindfest so many times before its dull, reroll different classes builds, play other games and do the same shit, after 10+ years of that shit its gotten to a point that it feels like a job instead of enjoyable.

I started playing tekken 7 on steam to get my mmo pvp fix without having to grind for 14 hours a day for the best gear

>>380990932
I played from release through BC and quit in WotLK.

The game was always casualized from the start. WoW-babbys just like to think that they were part of "real MMOs" because they played vanilla.

>>380990196
>The only quests you needed to group for were dungeon quests.
If you deliberately waited until you were grossly overleveled to do said quests, but that's missing the point.
>No one would ever group of quests
Okay you have no clue what you're on about.

>>380990894
>For WoW I understood the dungeon finder, it was retarded spamming general chat in hopes of finding a group.
I still prefer using chat channels, personally. It encouraged you to build a group of contacts you could rely on to help you... err I mean make friends.
>Looking for Raid was the absolute worst decisison however. The first raid tier since its introducion the game lost its mystique.
Raiding without a consistent guild would be incredibly dull. One of the things that makes vanilla raiding so great is that everyone collectively improves week after week as they all get used to each other.

>>380991459
>you objectively lose durability and objectively lose time
>t-that's not a penalty it's a privilege
You are outright basing your argument on semantics.
>muh exp penalty
Cool, that doesn't means people didn't group for shit, afterall the value in quests was the turn in exp and the rewards themselves. Did you play vanilla?

>>380991139
Vanilla still exists today, pleb. Hell, it thrives.

>>380991585
>Okay you have no clue what you're on about.
see
>>380991539

>If you deliberately waited until you were grossly overleveled to do said quests, but that's missing the point.
You didn't have to. The game was fucking easy.

>>380991539
>it took 30 seconds to run from any graveyard to your corpse in vanilla
sure thing mate you did play vanilla
not even the fucking mc corpse run was 30 seconds and its the shortest one i remember

>>380991675
Losing time and durability is not a punishment opposed to losing gear, experience, your body, 6 hours, etc.

I know it's hard to imagine for you WoW-babbys but death used to be a very scary thing in MMOs.

>Cool, that doesn't means people didn't group for shit
You're right, they grouped for instances.

>afterall the value in quests was the turn in exp and the rewards themselves. Did you play vanilla?
Did you? Quests were a nice bonus to the EXP you got while doing them but you couldn't rely entirely on them or you'd end up grinding all day and it would REALLY hurt you late game 55+ when the number of quests were nearly non existent and you spent all day grinding in WPL.

>>380991686
>it thrives
just barely. nostalrius shut down, elysium has corrupted mods and is donate to win, and every vanilla other server has low population.

>>380991697
You know, you're the only one arguing the difficulty of the game so let that one sink in for a bit and come back with relevant points.

I'd say it's mostly because of "min-maxing" culture in games. Previously achieving a rare weapon in MMO was something only few could do with the help of their guild/friends. Nowadays everything can be done if you only watch a video on YT or check some datamined information from the game.

There is no feel of adventure anymore and no need to experiment when you have everything said to you on the internet.

This + fast pace need of new games caused the fact that MMOs can't exist at this point. This genre is dead.

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>>380991539
Ulduar to ICC was the pinnacle of MMO genre in any case.
No LFR, amazing lore heavy design, good number of bosses, I enjoyed the top guilds competing for world firsts. Absolute joy.

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>>380988617
because of dungeon finder/ we've all grinded through an mmo already, so theres an elitist mentality to leveling, nobody wants to explore.

>>380991697
>>380991539
>I played from release through BC and quit in WotLK.
Then you either suffer from memory loss or overleveled for each zone in a painstakingly dull way so as to ensure that you would be ready to deal with new quests.

OR you played as a hunter or warlock. They had no trouble soloing elite mobs unlike other classes.

>>380991931
And you're the only one arguing difficulty as well. What's your point? If you played MMOs before WoW you'd know what difficulty actually was.

I have plenty of points, did you even read my post?
>>380989463

>>380988842
Moonguard is unironically the best server. You actually see people wandering around the most remote parts of towns, it actually makes you feel like it's 2007.

>>380991905
>Losing time and durability is not a punishment opposed to losing gear, experience, your body, 6 hours, etc.
>I know it's hard to imagine for you WoW-babbys but death used to be a very scary thing in MMOs.
>I-IT'S NOT A PUNISHMENT COMPARED TO THESE OTHER PUNISHMENTS
Desperate as fuck, google what Objective means.
>the grouped for instances
And quests with elites, maybe also at times when it was particularly busy.
>you couldn't rely on them
Shitter detected, the optimal way to level was going to different zones to clear the quest hubs.

In the case of WoW cross server bullshit and instancing. Cant even do a proper city raid these days because the raid group ends up in different instances of the servers

Fuck this shit

>>380992063
>Then you either suffer from memory loss or overleveled for each zone in a painstakingly dull way so as to ensure that you would be ready to deal with new quests.

Nope, I just played MMOs before WoW so I didn't have to be handheld through the already super casualized leveling experience.

Come back when you've spent 2+ days grinding levels in a group of all real players against mobs that will actually kill you if you fuck up.

>>380992029
Maybe you could have a system where you can only enter 5man dungeons with your guild mates, but otherwise the process of finding a group was tedious and shit. Even if you have few guildies to go with its annoying to start looking for the remainder from chat.

>>380992070
Yes and everyone else has pointed out they're outright retarded.

>>380991927
>just barely. nostalrius shut down, elysium has corrupted mods and is donate to win
2016 called, they'd like their conspiracy theories back.

Every mod who was accused of doing that shit long since left the elysium team. This was several months ago. You've been living under a rock or something.

Every modern MMORPG is optimized such that people no longer have to communicate with eachother nearly as much as they used to in order to get ahead in the game

>>380990305
i'd join but i've never played EQ in my life, and small communities are always dicks who never want to help a nigga out

>>380992157
>the optimal way to level was going to different zones to clear the quest hubs.
When did I ever say anything differently?

Did you even comprehend what I said? You can't skip out on quests in vanilla or you'll be extremely underleveled and have to grind extensively.

>>380988617
Dalaran is constantly busy, RP servers have people in every city, moonguard goldshire is packed to double capacity, and trade chat is constantly overflowing with conversation about topics ranging from gun rights to government mind control plots to game discussion to [Thunderfury, Blessed Blade Of The Windseeker].

People don't talk in dungeons, but that's because dungeons have become so easy a blind retarded female could run them without knowing what's going on and cross realm play has killed any sense of community.

>>380992253
>Everyone else has pointed out they're outright retarded
Where? I mean I know it's hard for WoW-babbys to accept the fact that their game was made for 11 year olds who just logged off call of duty, but it's the truth.

>>380992326
So the value in them was the exp and the rewards, thanks for agreeing.

>>380989421
AAAYOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

>>380988617
Everytime i want to commit to an MMO i keep being haunted by the feeling that its gonna be such a waste. You spend tons of time, effort and perhaps even money on an MMO then one day, the publisher could just pull the plug and all those will be washed down the drain.

>>380989865
Or where the player classes are trimmed down to literally just do their role with maybe 1 or 2 moves that support the party, so the devs basically don't have any wiggle room to make weird encounters where classes have to use specific shit like crowd control or mana burning or kiting

>>380992447
thats why i never cared for achievements grinding

>>380992356
>Dalaran is constantly busy
Sitting AFK waiting for dungeon queue to pop isn't what I'd call "busy"

Busy usually refers to people interacting with one another.

>>380992198
>Come back when you've spent 2+ days grinding levels in a group of all real players against mobs that will actually kill you if you fuck up.
Yeah that's vanilla wow. I've been playing it the last few months. Mobs do kill you if you fuck up, unless you're playing on some sort of undertuned piece of shit like kronos.

>>380992447
it's not about the destination, it's about the journey

>>380988617

Elder Scrolls Online is pretty active.

>>380992423
Agreeing with what? What is even your argument? You've gone on this huge branch off of the original points which was that WoW was a casual shitfest for babbys who never played an MMO in their life.

You don't need groups, you don't need to put in any actual time. You just log on, play the game solo without interacting with anyone and log off wishing you were dead. That's what WoW was outside of endgame.

>>380992284
you can still "donate" real cash to guilds to give you anything you want endgame wise and the mods do nothing about RMT

>>380992417
>i'll call them wow-babbys and say the game is easy, that'll make what I got wrong true
Sort yourself out lad.

>>380991975
>Ulduar to ICC was the pinnacle of MMO genre in any case.

Ulduar and ICC were the pinnacle.

TOC was trash and we all know it.

>>380992525
People would be more inclined to interact with each other if they were only allowed a limited number of alts. Everybody has all the professions at this point, so why would you bother talking to anybody. The problem is made worse by the fact that you can start training current content professions from level 1 instead of having to go through all the same work that older players have had to put in. LFG just makes the problem even worse.

That said, I still throw my professions up in trade chat and say LFW.

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>>380988617
ESO is actually really good, best loooking mmo, quests with full voice acting, dungeons are tough, pvp is unique, map is huge, your class isn't shackled to one weapon, etc.

why does it have a bad rep again?

>>380992630
But as has been shown time and time again that is objectively false, you can't feign ignorance when all i've done is rebuke whatever you say.

>>380992527
>Yeah that's vanilla wow
AHHHHHHAHAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHHHHAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHH

AHA

AHA

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Okay thanks for confirming that you didn't even play vanilla WoW. Holy shit a not even WoW-babby trying to "prove" WoW took any actual time or group involvement to play.

Holy shit wow. Are people really this delusional?

Jesus fuck neo-/v/ is a fucking joke

>>380992637
You're talking about an existential problem that all servers in all MMOs have. All suspicious gold trading in game on their servers results in bans.

Look, if you got butthurt because someone got your favourite name before you or you were mercilessly ganked in the first contested zone you wandered into I get it, that sucks. But grow a pair and stop talking shit you have no understanding of.

>getting buffs from people in town before going off to battle
>tipping people for buffing or crafting things for you
>having to sell things by yelling in public chat channels just like everyone else because no marketboard exists
>having to find/form parties by talking to people in local chat

you will never experience these things ever again

>>380992709
>that'll make what I got wrong true

What did I get wrong? See my original points. They may be hard to comprehend for someone who hasn't touched a non-WoW clone, but they're the real deal.

Because everything is instanced now.


There is no world anymore, only hubs. There isn't a reason to interact with anyone on your server that isn't your Clan/Guild/Free Company because you will probably never need to do anything with them due to everything being instanced.

FF XIV is a perfect example, nothing relevant exists outside of instanced shit.

I fucking miss FF XI

>>380988617
Because that's how they were designed. It's all about convenience, socializing takes too much effort.

>>380992735
Wasnt ToC when blizz started testing the waters with different difficulty levels? It was a precursor to LFR.

>>380992918
But they're outright false

>>380992137
It's the best server if you have an unlimited amount of free time.

>see people wandering in random towns
>oh wow this is great the world is so alive
>want to approach somebody and ask if they want to do some quests or trade cloth for leather
>get roped into a 45 minute RP in-character conversation
>Not really interested in RPing but I don't want to be rude and I figure they're probably really lonely

>>380992178
fucking this, cross-realm was a giant mistake, it killed server community and realm forum posting. I remember guilds you to talk shit on the forums and then schedule wpvp battles, was fun.

>>380992795
>why does it have a bad rep again?
Did you somehow forget the abysmal state of the game at release?

>>380988617
grow up and move out of your mom's basement.

>>380992735
Ulduar was the pinnacle.

ToC was hot garbage and horrible.

ICC was mediocre. Better than ToC, but not nearly on the same level and as innovative as Ulduar.

Ulduar is probably the best raid Blizzard made. It wasn't super serious, the environments were amazingly cool, hard modes were a fucking fantastic idea that made fights a lot more exciting, Mimiron and Yogg-Saron were top tier boss fights, especially firefighter Mimiron.

Blizzard had awesome raids before this like Karazhan, but Ulduar definitely is the best one they've ever made.

>>380992178
Hopefully it only works for people trying to invade Stormwind.

>>380992832
Thanks for confirming that you've forgotten how hard vanilla wow is, also that you're slightly unhinged.

>>380992178
>>380992990

cross-realm was blizzards grand idea of merging servers without having to officially announce mergers (bad PR) while still profiting off transfers.

blizz gives fuck all about community as long as it buys their shit

>>380988617
No consequence for dying ruined mmos and it is blizzards fault. Once that was introduced normies came and mmo vets had a hard time going back to xp loss item loss etc.

When there is no sense of loss for making errors there is no thrill to victory.

It's a shame. I just started playing with a couple buddies of mine and people just don't talk. I'll run into some random person in the mi8ddle of nowhere and I'll try to talk to them and they'll just ignore me.

Even in dungeons everyone is silent. It's sad

>>380993012
i actually don't, but why is that relevant now? i just remember streamers hating on it because it wasn't a WoW clone and it wasn't your typical ES game, and everybody followed suit.

>>380993227
Samefagging your post, sad.

>>380992882
you're fucking retarded and didn't even read my post. I said RMT as in real money trading, not trading gold. Top guilds have been exchanging loot carries and shit for paypal cash for a long time now. Private server mods are fully aware of it but do nothing. Any normie with money can get decked out.

>>380993227
There's nothing to remember about vanilla WoW difficulty.

The game was soloable to max level. Explain to me how anything soloable to max level could be even remotely difficult?

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>>380993012
>games, especially MMOs, never get fixed and will eternally stay in the state of it's launch

>>380989463

Pretty much.

Same thing happened to FFXI, and thus FFXIV was made, which is just a WoW reskin.

>>380992795
I actually tried it with some friends recently, not even a month ago. Neither of us had ever played it before, but the questing was so completely braindead due to non-existing difficulty that we just stopped, it was simply much too boring to just follow the quest marker and have exactly 0 challenge. I fucking swear listening to the voice acting of some quests takes longer than actually achieving the objective if you don't count the time it takes to run to the marker. Fucking terrible design. I'm sure the game has to get challenging and difficult later on but it's so boring early that it was impossible for us to push through that shit.

>>380989015
>ffxiv is pretty active
FFXIV is literally filled with weeb furries and pedophiles. I'd rather be alone.

>>380993379
Any game with an XP mechanic is soloable to max level. No MMO is difficult during leveling, with the occasional challenge spike in dungeons. The only challenge in an MMO is in end game or PVP.

>>380993295
>>380993415
>why is that relevant now?
Because that's what people remember. They remember how awful it was when it first came out. Most people don't follow games they dropped.

>games, especially MMOs, never get fixed and will eternally stay in the state of it's launch
Who said that? He asked for a reason why the game gets a bad rep.

I like ESO. I play ESO. You people are fucking worse than reddit when it comes to being desperate for persecution.

>>380993363
>>380992882
>You're talking about an existential problem that all servers in all MMOs have. All suspicious gold trading in game on their servers results in bans.

>>380988617
Why bother talking to someone when you won't be able to communicate or do anything with them when you finish this instance that you are in? Queues and the removal of downtime killed MMOs.

>>380993537
>Any game with an XP mechanic is soloable to max level
Is this what WoW-babbys really believe?

Holy shit.

>No MMO is difficult during leveling
Can you just please admit that you've never played a MMO before WoW. It would explain everything and we could all stop bothering replying because your opinion is invalid.

>The only challenge in an MMO is in end game or PVP
See above.

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>>380988617
MMORPGs have been appealing to the solo player more and more as time goes on. It's part of the Themepark philosophy of MMORPGs. That you're not really on the rides for other people, you're on the rides to experience it yourself.

This works for low-levels where people will rapidly burn through content, but dries up as time goes on. No one cares about the epic story about the player being the only chosen one and blah blah blah. Who the fuck cares. MMORPGs think you're going to be engrossed by the setting and world that a billion other MMORPGs and video games have already done, so they think that is what will stick you around for the ride. They don't ever once consider that you're playing the game with other people and maybe it should have activities geared toward playing the game with other people.

Nope, back on the rollercoaster citizen. We need to tell you more about how you're the only one true jesus returned in a game where everyone is also told the same thing.

And surprise, it sucks. These games now train people to play by themselves in a world populated by people, who them go on to be solitary and not play with other people, which results in the world dying. Because of course it does, why would you play an MMORPG to play the equivalent of a single-player game?

The single biggest failure in my mind as of late has been Tree of savior. A game promising to be a Ragnarok online sandbox MMORPG but then threw players into the themepark seconds of starting the game.

It sucks. I want MMORPG companies to get their heads out of their asses. Yes I'm mad.

>>380993438
well of course questing is going to be easy if you're grouping, seems like you guys just wanted to power-level/not pay attention to whats going on in the game and it's story. that mentality is what killed mmos.

>>380993537
Nah a lot of the earlier MMOs were borderline impossible to solo but I don't know if tuning a 60% of the random ass world mobs around a group can be considered difficulty, more just tuned around a group.

used to be at least the illusion you could affect the game world. Now they don't even bother

>>380992795
Because it isn't Elder Scrolls. You can't steal or rob or murder NPCs or players, and nothing has any flavor to it. it's just a bland brown and green mess.

>>380993625
real GMs ban people caught trading real cash for carries.

elysium GMs don't ban people caught trading real cash for carries.

>>380993529
Do you know where the fuck you are?

>>380993681
I've played literally hundreds of MMOs. Which successful/relevant one can't be solo'd to max level?

>>380993438
I also played ESO and the quests are the dumbest "fetch eight deer asshole" fetch-and-kill quests ever. The story isn't even that good.

People always say that Morrowind would be great as a multiplayer game. I think they took the idea wrong.

>>380993773
>You can't steal or rob or murder NPCs
You can do both of those things..

>or players
You can kill players in Cyradil

>and nothing has any flavor to it.
The game has like 400 hours of story content

>it's just a bland brown and green mess.
What? You didn't actually play the game then. It's only $10 on G2A. You should try it out. If you're a WoW-babby I wouldn't though, it's not your usual formula.

>>380988617
Players without the time to play whined and complained on the forums that the socializing aspect of the game should be bypassed by adding automatic grouping components to the game. Any sense of community has been dead since they Blizzard added that to the game. You can also extrapolate that to any of the other major changes to the game such as classes not mattering anymore etc.

TLDR Normies

>>380993775
>elysium GMs don't ban people CAUGHT trading real cash for carries.
>CAUGHT
proof.

kgo.

>>380993925
I played it in beta and at launch. I dropped it because of all those things.

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>>380992795
They fuck up any chance for a lorefag to join in
>INBEFORELOLSTORYINMMO

>>380993887
>Which successful/relevant one can't be solo'd to max level?
Any EQ-clone?

So nearly every non-UO clone before WoW..

>>380993773
>i'v never played the game

>>380994030
Yeah the game was shit at launch.

>>380994012
the elysium mods deleted the threads on the forums long time ago

>>380994062
>Any EQ-clone?
But wow is an EQ clone.

>>380993537
>Any game with an XP mechanic is soloable to max level.

That depends. It's technically true if you're a robot or an insane autist.
The point of parties is to make the grind manageable. You're not mindlessly killing mobs by yourself in an open field; you're doing the equivalent of going drinking with friends or talking with them over discord chat while also doing a repetitive task.

At one time, parties were made to mingle and meet other people, not just to jerk off the content. You commonly talked with other people whom you were grinding with, and they would respond in turn because everyone was a community. Everyone had the same goal and was trying to complete it together.

Now look at MMOs. A game where everybody plays together and everyone is alone. I wonder if someone seriously thinks that's good design.

>>380993434
Not originally. FF14 was basically a FF11 reskin. It wasn't until ARR that they made it WoW-like.

>>380994173
see my post like 60 posts ago calling you out for the conspiracist you are.

No evidence? Fuck off I don't care and nor does anyone else.

>>380994062
You could solo to max level in EQ and in FF11. I won't claim to know of the others as those are the two I played.

Now did you really want to do so? Probably not. BSTs are fucking weird anyways.

>>380994175
>But wow is an EQ clone.
Is this what people actually believe?

FFXI is an EQ clone.
>Both require groups to level
>Both require player interaction for travel
>Both have huge non-instanced zones with end game bosses
>Both have Tank, DD, Heal & Support classes
>Both have content outside of end-game
>Both take many months/years to reach max level

WoW is not an EQ clone.
>WoW can be played entirely solo to max level
>WoW requires no player interaction to travel
>WoW features exclusively instanced dungeons/raids
>WoW only supports Tank, DD, Heals
>WoW's content is only focused on end game
>WoW takes, even at vanilla, maybe 1 month to hit max level

The only similarity between WoW & EQ is that they both feature hotbars.

>>380988617
Fast travel and instance queues killed the open world. Back before WoW and maybe in the early days of WoW you could go to a leveling spot and spend all day there and the nearest town would be a hotspot of player activity.

The local dungeon would also be filled with players but WoW instanced all dungeons to have 5 player limits and every new game followed the same. So I'm gonna have to blame the lack of level grinding for the lack of community. Korean grinding MMOs were popular for a reason but we live in the age of mobage now.

>>380994365
>You could solo to max level in EQ and in FF11. I won't claim to know of the others as those are the two I played.
>Now did you really want to do so? Probably not.
Same is true of vanilla wow. Not for speedrunning but the last few levels are much more fun spent getting prebis and finishing raid attunements at the very least.

>>380994205

Somebody must. I remember leveling through barrens and looking for groups to run wailing caverns because I still needed a quest in there for that sweet blue staff. I remember when servers were vibrant, and everybody who actually participated in the server eventually got to know each other to some extent. When bad behavior and bad play got you ousted from groups because you earned yourself a bad reputation. The state of WoW kinda sucks community wise right now, but that's what guilds are for I guess. Learn to be social, make some friends, and play with a group of 50 people instead of potentially thousands. I guess it's always sort of been that way, but it's not quite the same being ganked by someone you'll never see again.

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>>380994290
whether you like it or not, shit still happens. moderators censor it to avoid losing players and potential donator cash for their server fund

>>380994365
>You could solo to max level in EQ and in FF11
Yes, but to do so you had to abuse game mechanics and it was only possible with maybe 2 jobs. Not only that, it was infinitely slower than doing so in a party. I'm talking like 10 times slower than leveling in a party.

>>380994562
>Vanilla has no content outside of "end-game"
>wow has no player interacted fast travel system
>muh time to level
>muh you can solo to max even though you can do it in other games
So you only managed to bring up 2 actual differences.

>>380991312
wow, so I guess this answers the question:

How many furries are left over after you fill a server with them?

>>380994562
>WoW features exclusively instanced dungeons/raids
Azuregos, Kazzak, 4 dragons, Anachronos
>WoW only supports Tank, DD, Heals
Buffing/Debuffing/CCing/Kiting
>WoW's content is only focused on end game
What is vanilla wow for 800 thanks
>WoW takes, even at vanilla, maybe 1 month to hit max level
Yeah that one is true. 1 week in game time, 1 month of playing a good 6 hours a day, with pretty great strats will get you there.

>>380994835
I brought up at least 6 differences and those were fundamental ones off the top of my head.

People who say WoW is an EQ clone have never played EQ.

>>380995031
Except I just knocked 4 of them off right away.

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>All the RPG elements were removed
>There is no WORLD anymore.
>The character progression with different stats and talents all became one big number called itemlevel on your character panel, no other stats matter
>You'll wander into Ironforge for the first time again and then that horn hits you [/spoiler

>>380994930
ask your mother

>>380994205
>>380994680
All they need to do to fix parties is have parties give excellent leveling and questing benefits, and then remove any kind of party finder and have everyone join a 'Looking for Party' channel on login.

People will be forced to party with other people, then. They will because it will be the optimum thing to do. It's really sad because solo'ing in most MMOs is usually the optimum thing to do, now. It's become that way because the only person the soloer has to worry about is themselves.

post mmm moments in mmorpgs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7eCZwKc79w
>was trying to find a boss battle

>>380990096
>>380990096
>>380990096
>>380990096
>>380990096
>>380990096

>>380994972
>Azuregos, Kazzak, 4 dragons, Anachronos
All of which no one did because none of them had relevant equipment.

>Buffing/Debuffing/CCing/Kiting
Yes those are abilities that some WoW classes had. None of them being dedicated support classes. I know it's hard to wrap your WoW-babby head around, but there used to be classes entirely dedicated to snaring, debuffing, buffing, etc.

>What is vanilla wow for 800 thanks
What's the answer? Vanilla WoW was "quest until you run out of quests" -> "grind until you hit max level" -> Run LBRS/UBRS/Strat/Sholo until you have tier 0.5 -> Run MC. Which part of this isn't focused entirely on end game or reaching end game as quickly as possible?

>>380990096
>>380995243
Everything posted so far is accurate. Stop being a fucking contrarian and educate us if we're 'wrong' about them.

>>380995110
Which? You didn't provide any arguments. You just green texted with no examples.

>>380995243
see
>>380990298

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>>380988617
Cata was fun

>>380995354
I thought you were the MMO master man, you should be able to figure out the things I green texted with ease.

>>380992975
You could argue that Ulduar was the first time with multiple cases of toggling hard mode on some boss fights, but ToC fits your description better

>>380995278
should have farmed when they were added and not during naxx

>>380995278
relevant? some of them had BiS vanilla gear lol

>>380990358
>STOP BEING KNOWLEDGEABLE ON THE SUBJECT MATERIAL /v/ IS FOR MINDLESS SHITPOSTING

>>380994719
Read the two sentences after the next one and only one that you read: I already covered that.
>>380994565
For WoW it was both acceptable and encouraged to solo. For EQ and FF11 it made you a pariah. Something you don't want to be in an older style MMO.

>>380995432
You literally copy/pasted what I said. If you disagree with my comparison between WoW & EQ, you can provide an argument with evidence and we can continue discussing. If not, don't bother.

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>>380995317
>>380995354
FFXIV is doing better than your dead mmos. End of story

>>380995278
>All of which no one did
They're always highly contested because most of them drop great gear.
>>380995278
>there used to be classes entirely dedicated to snaring, debuffing, buffing
As opposed to Buffing/Debuffing/CCing/Kiting holy shit they have as much if not more utility then you could come up with it's almost like whatever shit your defending isn't as complicated or interesting.

>>380995278
>Which part of this isn't focused entirely on end game or reaching end game as quickly as possible?
Not my fault you're too autistic to run dungeons with people while you level.

>>380995442
Yeah they have the theme of testing difficulties out.
Ulduar was the best possible way to do it with hard modes and ToC was the absolute worst way. Unfortunately the latter was easier to implement so we never got an ulduar #2 and it probably didnt fit their lfr vision to have hard modes

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just play on warmane icecrown
it's the best wotlk server out there and has like 4-5k people on at peak the site says like 12k but it probably lies and multiboxing is allowed so there's a couple multiboxers

i started a guild with my friends and we're going through all the wotlk raid content with gear intended for the raid. we just finished naxx 10 last night
most other people just run fos/pos until they get good enough gear for heroics then farm frost until they can get icc though or just buy their gear and then expect every single person on the server to have 5.5k gearscore for runs that drop gear equivalent to 5k gearscore

>>380989919

>auction house

Fuck that, Greater Faydark was the best system.

>>380989919
When I stopped playing (right at the launch of the expansion) people were still hanging out in LA. Always full during the afternoon.

Did that stop as well?

>>380995595
>FFXIV Just had an expansion release and is doign better *at this moment* than MMOs released ten years ago

HOLY SHIT BATMAN
YOU DON'T SAY?

Hey how was FFXIV about three weeks ago before Stormblood hit? Pretty fucking dead, I know because I play it, too.

When people burn through the shiny new content FFXIV will go back to being exactly as it has been for the past two years: fucking empty.

>>380995568
>I already covered that.

Then what is your point?

There's a huge difference between two of the 25+ jobs/classes being able to slowly solo at 1/10th of the pace of other people in an already extremely slow leveling grind vs WoW's every single class can solo to max level and is expected to.

>>380995570
>copy/pasted
Objectively false. Is it too hard for you to figure out? Fucking brain-babbys, why don'y you form a group to figure out the answer?

>>380995493
You're not knowledgeable, you're just a loud git with nostalgia goggles and an overinflated sense of self importance.

The only good MMO was shadowbane, and it failed because there isn't a market for accomplishment, there is only a market for gibs me dats.

You don't play MMO for the competitive aspect, fuckstain?
Wow I wonder what're video games about.

>>380995614
>great gear.
Again, none of it was good or worthwhile.

>As opposed to Buffing/Debuffing/CCing/Kiting holy shit they have as much if not more utility then you could come up with it's almost like whatever shit your defending isn't as complicated or interesting.
Believe it or not, they did things other than that as well.

>Not my fault you're too autistic to run dungeons with people while you level.
That falls into questing, which every single dungeon had multiple quests accompanying them.

>>380995791
>You're not knowledgeable, you're just someone who has been playing these games waaaaaay longer than I am and is probably older and more experienced with them as well.
I can practically feel the newfag dripping off of this post. It reminds me of the pre-pubescent tards who used to roll in thinking they were experts at 4chan because they read ED for a few hours.

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>>380995748
this webm was taken 3 weeks ago on a "dead" server

>>380991459
>Being in a party induced a HUGE exp penalty to mob exp.

Which didn't matter due to the amount of mobs you'd be killing in a big group quest anyway. Stranglethorn Vale, the Plaguelands, Hinterlands... Tanaris, the higher end Barrens, Stonetalon Mountains, Desolace...

All of these zones and more in vanilla encouraged grouping and most couldn't be completed without it.

>>380995884
Whats the point of mmos if you dont play a lot?

>>380995790
I'll wait for your argument and evidence.

>>380988617
Modern WoW yes, because everything teleports you on click and cross servers destroy any server community anyway. Good privats with high player numbers are the only way to get any sense of a community, because you see them more than once

>>380995748
t. mateus player

>>380996043
Still waiting on yours, faggot.

>>380995774
It means >>380994062 was proven false: It can be done, even in EQ1. You're trying to change the subject here.

>>380995791
>You're not knowledgeable, you're just a loud git with nostalgia goggles and an overinflated sense of self importance.

If someone has been playing these games longer than you have, then they are by definition; more knowledgeable. You cannot argue that. Experience = Knowledge.

>The only good MMO was shadowbane

Great, tell us why it's the best MMO ever made then instead of drive-by shitposting while admitting that you have very little knowledge on the subject matter?

>>380995954
>he's not respecting my appeals to authority
>boo hoo hoo hoo

I was just wondering if I should go back into GW2. PvP used to be sort of fun with the guild, and they would probably take me back in if it still exists.

Any thoughts?

>>380996112
see
>>380989463
&
>>380994562

>>380989015
FFXIV is filled with the worst variations scum. Quality>Quantity

>>380993696
We didn't want to power level. The questing design is just retarded due to how easy it is. It's beyond stupidly easy, the guy playing melee literally couldn't even get in range to hit most mobs because casters/ranged would already kill it, the guy who played healer was complaining that playing healer is useless since he never had to heal. Named quest boss enemies die in <10s and regular mobs are so pathetically weak that they're barely worth mentioning.

The game just seemed designed particularly to cater to the play style you complain about, not paying attention to anything at all.
>no incentive to read/listen to quests since the quest marker tells you everything you need to know
>no incentive to pay attention to your surroundings since it's irrelevant, you just follow the marker you don't need to understand the map
>no incentive to play carefully since everything is pathetically weak
>no incentive to work together with different players/classes, everything is too weak for it to matter
The game is too easy for anyone to focus on it. Playing well doesn't matter and doesn't reward you when the difficulty level is so low. The story was too uninteresting and generic in any case and even if it were the best shit ever a story is never an excuse to have crap gameplay, ESPECIALLY not in a MP game. As I've said I'm sure it has to get challenging later on, but the beginning is just terrible.

>>380995983
Oh you got a WebM of a dozen players jumping around before tackling a raid.
Hey what does this prove, exactly? That you can find a dozen people to complete end-game content? I'm not exactly impressed. I'm sure more than a dozen people still play EQ and RO despite those games being deader than shit, too.

If you've ever tried using party finder during prime time as anything other than a healer or tank, you know exactly how dead this game can be. Don't even pretend that you don't.

>>380996294
>behemoth
>raid
now you're just posting nonsense, if you don't even play the game then fucking say so.

>>380996294
That was a world raid in the middle of the day during NEET time.

Important thing to note is the ones on the behemoths are original players.

>>380996178
Maybe if you weren't a newfag you could tell us a little about MMORPGs, but again; you've already admitted that you're a newfag to them so what the fuck do you have to say that's important?

Are you going to regale us on these games you haven't played and tell us why you know better than people who have been playing for years?

Why does nobody ever fucking chat with eachother in game? There's people all over but no one is talking. It's sad

>>380996114
How does that prove it false are you autistic?

I could pick up pennies for infinite time and I'd eventually become a millionaire, yes. That's true. That doesn't mean that's what the world you're put in encourages you to do.

>>380996248
>both posts that got horribly btfo over and over because of being outright false
Sad.

>>380988617
The devs listenes to casual faggots and made everythingfucking easy by adding dungeon finders and auction houses.
I still remember people spamming chat to sell shit in old runescape or people actually putting in some effort for finding parties and keeping them together in WoW. Basically they watered doen te social aspects to please the adhd shitters.

>>380996409
No shit it's a fucking world raid. Get your head out of your ass, cretin.
>>380996448
The boss that used to make the server tremble can now barely find a dozen people to complete it. Don't act like I haven't done this dance, either.

>>380996479
why the fuck should I talk to random people when I could be talking to my friends on discord, steam, facebook, etc?

same shit applies to real life. why bother talking to people next to you at a train station when you could be on your phone.

>>380996479
see >>380993679

>>380996571
>outright false
You keep saying this but you've yet to provide any argument or evidence to prove otherwise while I've provided large amounts of both.

Still waiting.

>>380996674
>You keep saying this but you've yet to provide any argument or evidence to prove otherwise while I've provided large amounts of both.
Objectively false.

>>380996531
Because it can be done. This means its the opposite of can not.

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>>380994972
I spotted the guy who didn't play Vanilla LOL.

Point 1: Anachronos was not an outdoor raid like the others you mentioned.

Point 2: Buffing/Debuffing/CCing and Kiting are sub roles many classes are responsible for, and don't constitute a true "Support" role. WoW is a trinity setup to a T.

Point 3: WoW had always been focused on endgame content. There were many paths to 60, and it took months back then, but the game truly opened up at 60 with endgame Dungeons, which in Vanilla were 10 to 15 man raid affairs (UBRS, LBRS, Scholomance, Stratholme, Etc.), and only after slogging through these dungeons and piecing together your 8pc Dungeon set could you find yourself prepped for the challenge of Molten Core's 40 man content. There was never an incentive or focus to backtrack to mop up old grey quests especually in the base game where no achievments or rewards existed for completing such tasks.

Point 4: Vanilla took anywhere from 1 to 3 months to cap for the vast majority of people, certainly leaps and bounds longer than the mere days it takes today, assuming you ignore the fact you can cheese and buy your way to max with a boost.

WoW and EQ were almost completely different and it was intentional. Blizzard wanted to make the traditionally harder core MMO genre more accessable. Greater audience = more money. It's why every change and small quality of life improvement has been to make the access point lower and lower.

The cost has been world depth, story, and impactful gameplay.

It was an accomplishment to even ding a level back then. Now it's one of many checkpoints you merely blast through as quickly as possible to reach endgame and start your gear treadmill.

>My Vanilla Sylvanas Face When

>>380996595
>world raid
again you're clueless.

>>380996116
>experience=knowledge
What you're saying is time played = knowledge, and there are people that have done the same thing for decades and still suck at what they do. Further you don't know anything about me or my history, so you can't say you've been playing longer than I have.

>>380992905
Getting Lineage 2 flashbacks here. GOD was a mistake desu.

>>380996726
>Objectively false

Then what is:
>>380989463
&
>>380994562

None of the statements I made are false. They're all facts.

>>380996479
same reason you have people acting like dickheads in this very thread.

Being a dickhead has way too many benefits than downsides. You can make people do the things you want, think the things you do, and say the things you say. All because you were an asshole to them.

People who don't talk in MMORPGs don't talk because they don't want to socialize, they don't talk because they've been through this before. Most people playing MMORPGs now have played them in the past, and they know that exposing their hand just results in people shitposting them or demanding things from them. People who don't take "Hey I want to go to bed" or "Let's just party for this one quest" as an answer.

Needy, greedy, stupid people ruined MMOs.

>>380996829
Except for the fact that if you read even half of the replies you'd see that they are not true at all.

>>380996453
I've played far more MMOs than you have buddy, been at this shit since fucking MUDs were still a thing and you were paying by the hour or by the data.

>>380996745
Yep, sorry you can just start all the rest of your posts with "I'm a fucking autist who doesn't understand the difference between EQ & WoW's fundamental leveling design"

>>380996601
100% this

>>380988617
>Why do MMOs feel so empty now?
They're still the same, you just grew up.

>>380996885
What is not true? Please point out specifically is not true and I will provide evidence that it is.

Every single one of your posts so far has been
>This fact is wrong
>But I have no evidence as to why and I wont even tell you why this FACT is wrong

Still waiting

>>380996762
>What you're saying is time played = knowledge
Are you going to argue that experience isn't actually knowledge? Especially when it comes to video games? Are you seriously going to argue that you know more about the genre because you read some articles about it at one time instead of actually playing it for yourself?

No, seriously. If you say 'Yes' to any of those questions you're a fucking parasite that's ruining /v/.

People who think they are experts at video games despite not playing them are the true cancer killing /v/. People glad to give their stupdi uneducated opinions because they watched a youtube video about them or listened to a podcast about a genre.

You're no exception if you think differently.

this thread sucks, come play stormblood with us.
>>380990057

I hate MMOs for the gear grind.

>Finish leveling
>Start endgame content
>have to do daily quests for 2 weeks to unlock gear strong enough to do low-tier dungeon which you have to do an average of 50 times
>Use gear from low-tier dungeon to do mid-tier dungeon, which you need to clear an average of 100 times
>Use gear from mid-tier dungeon to do high-tier dungeon, which gives current best in slot items, which you need to clear an average of 1000 times, and also rng enchant/enhance the gear
>Repeat every expansion

I just described 99/100 MMOs that are out now.

>>380996976
No you're just underage

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>>380989463
Dungeon finder is more of a slippery slope of casualisation than most realize.

>It takes too long to find a group!
Here's a cross server party finder system so you never have to talk to anyone or even travel to the dungeons anymore.
>Hey all these people I was automatically matched with are fucking retarded since I didn't pick them myself!
The dungeons are now super easy, designed to be swiftly run through without any thought whatsoever.
>The playerbase has devolved into a mass of drooling idiots and the content is so easy nobody is bothering to learn their class for the actual somewhat challenging content!
Let's start homogenizing the classes and make things much simpler, then.
>The overworld is dead because everyone just sits in cities leveling through dungeons all day...
Let's neglect or outright remove parts of the overworld then. It's all boring singleplayer now anyway. Maybe a skip potion for those who want to go right to endgame..?

And so on.

>>380997040
Why do I need to do what everyone else has done over and over again? You're literally arguing with another guy that something can't be done, but it actually could be done and then you deflect with
>T-THEY'RE STILL DESIGNED DIFFERENTLY
Subjectivity and semantics are your only arguments and none of them are right.

>>380996887
>I've played far more MMOs than you have buddy,
Then fucking tell us why Shadowbane is the best MMO evar.

Go on, stop being a shitposter and tell us what separates it from everything else.

>been at this shit since fucking MUDs were still a thing and you were paying by the hour or by the data.
Hey, what a coincidence, me too. I still have an Aardwolf account.

So again, stop pontificating and start explaining.

>>380988617
because there are more games than gamers now

:(

>>380997175
I wish, my anonymous friend.

>>380996289
You just fried that bitch nigga.

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>>380988738
That's actually pretty true. Everyone has their own faggot mumble, discord, vent server for their shitty little guild with only 5 people. Its fucking retarded that shit should be built into the game like second life you talk and everyone can hear you and you can mute anyone.

>>380997215
No one has provided any evidence or argument with facts.

They express their ignorant opinion and that's it. If they want to provide facts against my facts, that's fine.

I'm still waiting for your argument & evidence.

>Subjectivity and semantics are your only arguments and none of them are right.
I've provided facts. Facts are not subjective nor based upon semantics (which I'm starting to believe you don't actually understand the meaning of the word).

>>380997141
Gear Treadmills is what make me quit MMOs. I'll play to enjoy content with other people, but when the game starts insisting I have min/max grinds for gear that I will replace in two patches anyway, that's when I quit.

That's why I quit WoW, that's why I quit GW, that's why I quit TERA, that's why I quit almost every MMO in recent memory.

>>380997209
Unrelated, GS is a fag for not tapping that. Anvils > Cows

>>380997110
I would if i didnt have to wait years to get in the game and get a 90k error immediately after

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>>380989015
>flashy colors and bright lights needed to hold the attention of retards
FF14

>>380997141
>tfw two of my favorite mmo (or one, the other being pseudo) have such low require to get the gear that you could just get them and do endgame stuff
There also SWGemu but I just waiting for space travel

>>380997406
You haven't presented a single fact other than that EQ had actual support classes and had little in the way of instancing for a while. No, the two post you continually back link do not contain the """""""""facts"""""""""" before you do that again.

>Good MMOs don't exis-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lK_MkcxRUL0

>>380997349
You are redditfriend you just want to be apart of the discussion in spite of your lack of actual knowledge

>>380997406
>No one has provided any evidence or argument with facts.
Not him, but people who walk into threads filled with things you can easily cross-reference from google and screech "NO ONE IS BACKING THEIR OPINIONS UP WITH FACTS AND CITED SOURCES!" are dumb.
What the fuck did you click on the 4chan thread and expect? A works cited at the very bottom with links and descriptions to books and articles on every post? Do you want [citation needed] next to every argument?
I mean fuck, what did you expect even posting here?

>>380997425
GW 2 you mean. Gw 1, you could just buy 1.5k armor and be set for life, or be really cheap and collect bear ass and give them to collectors for them.

>>380997736
He ironically wants his hand held whilst complaining about WoW handholding.

>>380997591
Every single statement in both of the posts are facts. Again, if you'd like to disagree please provide an argument and evidence.

You still seem to be stuck on this
>I disagree with this fact, but I have no evidence or argument.

>>380997389
This is actually a very good point.
Discord and Teamspeak have made it where there's no reason to talk to those around you, because people whom you actually know are a pushbutton away.

>>380997754
Yes, I meant GW2.

>>380988617
MOBAs took a good amount of MMO players

A lot of people are on discord and don't use in game chat

A lot of MMOs use queues now and that makes the players have less interaction

>>380997241

Shadowbane was the best because of the basic design. Forced cooperation, limited resources, and and end game based around players instead of some bot script. You couldn't go it alone and succeed, but because the way the system worked guilds were happy to take you because more bodies equal more work done. Your guild built a fortress and fortified it, you defended your resources and technologies, and you grew as a team. Eventually factions get too large and encroach on each other and wars break out. It was all very organic and incredibly player driven, and still managed to have fun combat.

>>380997656
>your lack of actual knowledge
I wish, my anonymous friend.
Ignorance is bliss.

>>380988617
You know why the new game Sea of Thieves has inbuilt mechanics that are purposefully inconvenient if you're playing solo? This is why.

Stuff like auction houses, automatic group finders, and the complete downplaying of profession users needing to advertise themselves in chat has totally eliminated the NEED to ever speak with anyone. You don't need to talk to anyone to find groups, you don't need to talk to anyone to make money, hell, once you're in a guild you don't even need to talk to anyone to make "friends" and gain comrades.

Keep in mind that anyone is guild is more likely to be talking with his own people on voice chat or simply in guild chat. He is incentivezed to do so because these are the only people that matter to him now. This means that communities in this game are virtually guaranteed to become insular and secretive as fuck while the broader, general community withers and dies.

It's all about convenience. An MMO needs to be inconvenient to thrive, and people need to be essentially forced to put themselves out there to get anything done.

>>380997425
Damn, thats why I quit. But how would you make money as the dev without it?

>>380997736
What do you mean what do I expect? I expect people who make outright false claims to provide their evidence to them.

Too many people on /v/ read these threads and actually believe what WoW-babbys are saying as truth.

It's sad.

>>380997893
>MOBAs took a good amount of MMO players

apples and oranges

>>380997849
>EQ and FF11 cannot be soloed to max level
>EQ and FF11 can be soloed to max level
>BUT MUH DESIGN
I have to think you're either practicing for a career in politics or are just baiting (You)s because nobody is that retarded.

>>380997141
This, honestly. I got so fucking sick of having to do the same instances 30 or 40 times just to have the one piece of gear I needed FINALLY drop and get snatched by someone else. And all just so I could do a different instance 30 or 40 times.

At that monotony to how GOD DAMNED AWFUL the community has become and you end up either searching endlessly for a decent guild that doesn't fall apart immediately or you get to PUG with an endless cast of clueless morons.

>>380988738
It annoying when people start using it as a requirement for raids

>>380996289

This. You can't even ignore the markers, quests don't actually give directions - you are just expected to follow the dot.

Doesn't help that the leveling is ass backwards. You start able to play everything at once, then later on you have to focus or be useless

@380997960
You shan't be receiving any more (you)s. Please remember to not comment on matters you have no knowledge in next time

>>380996754
>Anachronos was not an outdoor raid like the others you mentioned.
He was a legit raid encounter for the AQ questline, I don't know if that's what you meant or not.

>>380992178
Not like they could do anything better in their austical PR minds, 50 empty servers connected to each other or 8 full servers?

That's how dead wow is.

>>380998001
All you've done is make statements that people have proved wrong though (no. i'm not listing every reply to your two """"""""""fact""""""" posts, read those yourself), deflecting WoW-babbys doesn't suddenly make you right.

>every thread comes down to who fagged away most of his time in vanilla
kek
WotLK peaked because it was the perfect balance between autism (vanilla, BC) and casuals (WotLK+), after that it leaned more and more towards casuals while forgetting about autism

aka WotLK>all

>>380997985
There's a lot of ways for devs to make money without treadmills.
For one, more boss content, more land content, more party content. I think MMOs have this weird philosophy that you must give out gear in order to have progression, because its ingrained that gear = progression.

That's not really the case. You can have progression without having to hand out gear. Like for instance give points to their guild or advance the story. Or even give items that are unrelated to the gear they're currently wearing.

Even if they have the gear treadmill, they could have the treadmill be a collection of sidegrades. So the gear you're wearing is pretty good, but the gear you could get from this boss is also pretty good. And it makes you glow orange or something.

The carrot and stick approach works no matter what t

>>380988617
literally SEVEN MILLION less players
you do the fucking math

>>380998061
Crafting is still an underestimated thing in MMOs and is an absolute shame because you can actually done fun stuff with it if you try whilst also bringing relevance to the gear it can give.

>>380998027
EQ & FFXI were designed to be played in parties to max level, yes.

There are ~2 jobs in XI which can abuse game mechanics to level solo at the rate of 1/10th of which parties would.

You could level in a full party in WoW only grinding mobs as well. That's not what the game was designed to support.

You seem to be stuck on semantics rather than the overall point that WoW is a game built around leveling solo and EQ & XI are built around leveling in a group.

Nothing you can or will say will somehow change these facts.

Oh, an MMO thread.

Since there's so many MMO players here, maybe one of y'all can help me out here; I'm looking for an MMO with a good summoner class. I've tried a good number of MMOs, and so far the only one I've found that's close to what I'm looking for is PWI Venomancer, but I don't want to go back to PWI.

Basically, I want:
>Summoning is the main focus of the class
So, not TERA Mystic, which is really a healer, and not FFXIV Summoner, which is really a DoT Mage
>More than 7 summons
So not Blade and Soul Summoner
>Summons are not all useless throwaway trash mobs

Is there any MMORPG out there which does these 3 simple things, and is NOT a Diablo clone (I think the term is ARPG?)?

>>380988617
if you ever see me ingame don't ever dare talk to me you beta pussy

>>380998292
It was also followed-up by one of the worst expansions ever made for an MMO.
Blizz can't have one good move in a series of blunders and expect praise.

>>380998372
Yes and you claimed they couldn't be soloed to max, but they can so your were wrong.

>>380998196
Just that they haven't.

They haven't provided a single argument that has proved anything I've said as incorrect.

You can't "prove" facts wrong. How hard is that to understand? These are general statements about the design of the games.

I'm sorry WoW isn't as hardcore as you may believe it is. It's not. I'm really sorry.

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>>380988617
Play oldschool runescape.

Literally the best MMO of then and now.

>>380998478
>You can't "prove" facts wrong.
For a fact to be right you need to prove it first and you have never done this, in fact people have continually demonstrated the opposite is true. Also see your back to projecting on difficulty, a point only you have brought up

>>380998413
FFXI

>>380998464
See and here you are doing exactly what you claimed I was doing, arguing semantics.

I'm glad you agree that WoW is a babby's first MMO where player interaction comes second to a solo leveling experience for casuals.

I think Mmos suck now because of 2 things.

1, the grind isnt worth it. You do boring shit all day for an 'endgame' that might be dead by the time you finish grinding boring shit. Unfortunatley, mobas do it better. The endgame IS the main part of the game. Aka pvp combat. This is why mobas didnt kill rts, but actually killed MMOs.

2. Every fucking game now is online or has an online component. People are spread thin across these games. Even games that should be singleplayer have some kind of online shit. Thats why people are suddenly clambering for the return of better singleplayer games over MMOs.

I remember back in the day MMOs were a very exclusive thing. Hardly any games had online multiplayer. So they were a very real novelty and many people played them to be social.

Nowadays, every fucking game has online multiplayer and social media is a huge thing. MMOs no longer have a purpose.

>>380998183
Yes, for a questline, but IIRC he didn't drop loot like the other true World Bosses did.

>>380988738
>shit existed before WoW
>claim it killed WoW
kek

>>380998413
I like FFXIV's summoner class. You get different types of summons, and you double as a caster so you're not necessarily reliant on your pet. FFXI has an excellent summoner class that fulfills what you're looking for, but:
>No trash mobs

Also:
>Summoning is the main focus of the class
So that disqualifies FFXIV

May I suggest Aura Kingdom? You get at least 50+ summoners who all help you in battle, but you're never really a 'pure' summoner.

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>>380998334
This lead to another point. People boast how X mmo has millions of players but most of the time, they're usually in their own little world and hardly interact with other players. What the point of having all these numbers if they don't interact with each other?

>>380998351
I still miss how craft is important in a mmo like SWG

>>380998575
>make a statement
>it's wrong
>BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT I MEANT
Write what you mean or don't write at all.

>>380998573
>For a fact to be right you need to prove it first
You don't need to prove a fact right, because it's a fact. It's already right. Are you dumb? Is this your first go at logic?

>>380992795
his name is not important

>>380998652
>This lead to another point. People boast how X mmo has millions of players but most of the time, they're usually in their own little world and hardly interact with other players. What the point of having all these numbers if they don't interact with each other?
This.
It's like the person claiming FFXIV is the most 'ACTIVE GAME EVER THAN YOUR DEAD SHIT MMO', but you can't even find a party during prime hours with the party finder because everyone is doing guild content or world content.

>>380998682
So you're literally arguing semantics again now. Everyone know what was meant when I posted it. WoW-babbys vultured a literal semantic that doesn't change the point at all.

I'm glad you've conceded the argument. Thank you.

Towns are full and bustling in ESO

>>380998650

I mean, I guess I could give up "No trash mobs" if the point of the class was to summon like 50 of them to fight for you at one time, but I dont think any MMO does that either, do they?

>>380998639
Outside the AQ quest he would stop the fight and disappear when you got him to 20% health and I think it would give a shitload of negative rep with the bronze dragon faction whatever that was called. If you did have the quest he still didn't die or directly drop anything but I believe the quest itself gave some high level loot.

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>>380998413
Guild Wars 1, but that is due to the fact that the Necromancer was a brainchild of a dev that use to work for Diablo 2

@380998696
>You don't need to prove a fact right
Confirmed baiting so you get no (You), I guess science is useless.

>>380998763

reminds me of how much I hate daily quests

>hey buddy, we got most of the group just need one more come help us out. Then we can get keyed and join the raids.
>sorry, brah. got to do my daily quests first.

fuck wildstar

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>>380996976

>>380998796
I'm arguing the facts of what you wrote though, how is that semantics?

>>380998016
I mean if you ask any MOBA player on reddit or on their forums, they'll have a MMO background

The golden age of MMOs was between 1999 and 2006, back in that age there were no MOBAs, at least not like how big there are now

>>380998879
No. And Aura Kingdom's strength is diversity in your summons.

Also I think max allowed is 2 Eidolons (your summons) at one time.

>>380989814
Tower spam every map.

>>380988617
New expansion/content pushes the hub world to a different area.

It's only natural that the hub for 110 players is 110 Dalaran; there's next to zero content in old world for max levels.

>>380989750
what are you talking about? Did you ever even play?

>>380996927
Sounds to me like you are admitting you made an error.

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Because of shitheads like in pic related.

>>380998915
A fact is something that has already been proven right.

I don't need to provide evidence when I say 2+2=4.

>>380999027
>how is that semantics?
Oh wow so I guess you really don't know what the word means.

I posted one thing, with a very clear meaning. You understood that meaning, realized that the way I WROTE IT could in interpreted a different way, completely unrelated to the topic, and argued about it.

That is literally what semantics is. You're arguing about the meaning of words rather than the point which was brought forward.

I'm glad I could teach you something today.

>>380999079

I'll check it out, thanks anon

>>380997141
I think runescape spoiled me because I can't stand the average MMO's end game content, it just bores the shit out of me. I don't mind repeating content but MMO endgames literally revolve around doing daily quests and doing dungeons/raids on cooldown and that's all the content there is unless you enjoy PVP and I haven't enjoyed any MMO's PvP since GW2 at launch.

I should give FFXIV a try but when I saw the combat I was immediately turned off.

>>380999159
Yes. If you follow the thread before replying, you'd realize I did.

@380999267
>A fact is something that has already been proven right.
To be called a fact it must be first proven, all you've done is make statements and call them facts, kill yourself.

>>380999254
>anti social
>genre is massively multiplayer

This is like someone with agoraphobia going coordinated skydiving with 300 strangers.

>>380989463
theres a new frontier out there somewhere. lets not get so old that we cant see it.

>shitters claim grouping was big in vanilla
It always is in new MMOs and especially for younger players.

>>380999417
Not him, but people who try not to use the quote system because they don't want to continue the argument should just admit defeat and leave the thread. Nothing is keeping you from continuing the argument, and you're a fool if you think not giving them a (you) is going to result in them not seeing it.

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>>380988617
the people who played those meme games finally realized that you are autistic as fuck and went to play a real game

>>380998170
Nice counter-argument to my initial statement.
Sure shows how knowledgeable you are.

>@
And also how willing for a decent discussion you are.

>>380999473
Did you read the post?

>And bigger publishers are starting to get more experimental, but unfortunately still playing it too safe with how casual the games are

>>380999267
>Oh wow so I guess you really don't know what the word means.
>I posted one thing, with a very clear meaning. You understood that meaning, realized that the way I WROTE IT could in interpreted a different way, completely unrelated to the topic, and argued about it.
>That is literally what semantics is. You're arguing about the meaning of words rather than the point which was brought forward.
>I'm glad I could teach you something today.
You're arguing that your words mean different things than the words themselves mean, the dude who argued that you can reach max solo in EQ and FF11 was literally arguing the very fact of the claim you made ergo what you wrote, which is not semantics.

I see all of your arguments but... should I resub to WoW? I need that roleplay again.

>>380999548
It's not a matter of not seeing it, it's a matter of not giving them a red dot and he said something so retarded I just couldn't help it.

@380999570
Considering you posted the same comment 3 times in a row I'm not sure how you can claim you were looking for a decent discussion when it's clear you're just desperate for attention

>>380999697
ffxiv roleplaying is better

>>380999625
I just explained why it's semantics. You even greentexted it. Please re-read until you are able to comprehend. It may take some time, but at least be happy no one is banning you from this 18+ site.

>>380999362
clearly you fucking didn't

>>380999759
>>380999417
>>380998915
>>380998170
>>380998915
>Being this upset that you're losing three different arguments that you resort to reddit posting and arguing solely semantics

>>380999802
No, he argued the exact point you wrote, which is not semantics. This argument itself is semantics, but not the max level one.

>>380999880
There's nothing you can say that will somehow make me have no played the game.

I'm sorry it's hard to accept.

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Right in the feels man.
I used to play a ton of MMOs when I was young, FlyFF, Maplestory, WoW, Silkroad and probably a couple more that I already forgot about.

The big problem in my opinion is that people don't want to wait, people don't want to go up 1 level in a week, everyone wants to be max level as soon as possible and hit the end game content, not enjoying the road that brought you here.

And designers realize that and give the people what they want, every MMO out there is just a quick grind fest where people ignore each other until they hit max level, and when they do they are at max level with no friend so they either quit or look for people from outside the game (I.E reddit, friends).

I still remember back in the day how busy all the low level PG and GQ were in FlyFF and MS, and how you met people and grouped up to do dungeons that were way above your level in WoW but you did it for the heck of it.

Another big problem is all the data mining and information leaking out.

You know whats up in the game even before it released, you already know how to beat the boss step by step before it even reached the game, that kills the charm of it.

>>380999782
It's okay.

>>380999697
Check out FFXIV and TERA. TERA has an rp server.

@380999893
>losing
>EVERYTHING I SAY IS FACT
>losing

>>380999759
Posted a quick opening statement, all I got is I'm underage and reddit, no counter I can expand from.
If you just wanted a circle of faggots jerking around your own exact opinions you should have said so in the first place.

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>@

I don't know about you other niggas but I'm having fun in FFXIV. People in-game on my server Exodus are friendly as heck which is a surprise coming from WoW and other MMOs where the community would bark shit at you.

>>380999948
The point is WoW is a game deisgned to be played solo when leveling where as EQ/XI is designed to be played in a party when leveling.

He argued that because there are two extreme cases in either game where a job/class can be played solo to max level at an extremely slow rate, it somehow invalidates the fact that the games were designed to be played solo vs group.

That is arguing semantics.

I know this is a big boy word for you, so please look it up before continuing to respond.

@380999893
When your arguments are so bad you resort to namecalling and completely changing the context of things your wrote prior this is what happens.