Grimiore Heralds of the Winged Exemplar!?

bumping for interest

Dungeon crawlers were always shit.

>>380820843
>le shit graphics nostalgiacuck cashgrab
lol, it's amazing how people always fall for it

>>380820843
Neat. I've been interested in this, although honestly I will probably take forever before I actually give it a play.

>>380822689
my guess is it'll actually go on sale quick so be sure & grab it when it's out before the price get's jacked up

>>380820843
turn based combat?

I just bought an assload of CRPGs off the gog sale.

>>380821924
>Dungeon crawlers were always shit.
This. Dungeon crawlers are anachronistic pieces of trash because they were failed attempts at simulating the tabletop RPG experience. The were failures because they simulate only the dungeon crawling aspect of PnP RPGs, yet have no actual roleplaying where your character can solve various quests and encounters in various ways that befit your character, based on how you've defined your character through the RP system. Dungeon Crawlers lost the right to exist the moment Wasteland 1 and Darklands - actual RPGs with actual roleplaying were made.

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>>380820843
Holy shit.
I'm pretty sure the first time I heard about this game was before 4chan was a thing.

>>380823774
>I just bought an assload of CRPGs
You mean you bought an assload of h&s trash and dungeon crawler garbage. An "assload of CRPGs" doesn't even exist.

>>380824035
sure m8

>what is darklands

>Might & Magic

>THE ENTIRE WIZARDRY SERIES THAT EXPLODED IN THE EAST

>Dungeon & Dragons for MS-DOS

>>380824274
That's not an assload.
You've never even taken a big load into your ass, have you?

>>380824274
>what is darklands
An actual RPG.

>Might & Magic
Dungeon Crawler trash.

>Wizardry
Dungeon Crawler trash.

>Dungeon & Dragons for MS-DOS
Dungeon crawler trash. The fact these games bear the D&D name does not magically turn them into RPGs.

So, in the end, you bought one RPG and a heap of trash.

>>380824035
>M&M 6 pack, Wizardry 6+7 and 8, all the gold box games, Arcanum, Darklands

???????

>>380824510
>trash
you know Grimrock 1 + 2 were GOTY material right?

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>>380824679
>Grimrock 1 + 2 were GOTY material>>380824646
>M&M 6 pack, Wizardry 6+7 and 8, all the gold box games, Arcanum, Darklands
OK, you bought 2 RPGs, since you've also bought Arcanum. The rest is either h&s or dungeon crawler garbage.

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>>380824863
How about you suggest some games instead of busting my balls.

>>380823662
yeah it seems like it here's the old demo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03_ewGl5Fcc

>>380820843
I like dungeon crawlers but I really can't get behind a disgusting UI like this being done on purpose.

>>380825114
>How about you suggest some games instead of busting my balls.

Actual "classic" RPGs in chronological order of release:
Wasteland 1
Darklands
Fallout 1
Fallout 2
Planescape Torment
Arcanum

That's the entire list, by the way. Everything else is either h&s or dungeon crawling trash.

>>380825281
clive's been working on it for decades by himself m8 about the only thing I dislike is the inventory screen being a green man

>>380825401
>That's the entire list

Really? I already own and played through most of those save for Wasteland 1 (came with Wasteland 2) and the ones I just bought.

>>380823952
>>380824035
>>380824510
>>380824863
>>380825401
>the games that literally invented the CRPG genre aren't RPGs because I say so
Here's your (You), feel free to stop being wrong now.

>>380825917
I mean I get that it looking like shit is sort of the novelty of it but after Wiz 8 and more recent jap crawlers I just have a hard time going back to this. The art itself is nice enough its just fuck so much wasted space on purpose.

>>380824035
do you even KNOW what makes an dungeon crawler m8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDgbyvcKCiI

>>380825401
>No Ultima

Lemme tell you how I know you are underaged.

>>380826012
>dungeon crawler trash "inventing" anything
Oh, I'm laffin'. Dungeon Crawlers themselves are the eralist and flawed attempts at simulating the PnP RPGs. I say "flawed", because none of them feature any actual roleplaying, since none of your character generation and advancement decisions matter outside of combat. Computer RPGs were "invented" by PnP RPGs and nothing else.

>>380826359
Might & Magic had open world exploration and noncombat character skills. You are wrong and a shithead.

>>380825401
>not even including krondor, the original storyfag game

shit list, shit poster

>>380826318
>No Ultima
Why should I include dungeon crawler and h&s garbage on a list of RPGs? Or are you trying to argue that Ultima games have actual roleplaying?

>>380826559
you clearly haven't played an ultima game

>>380826506
>Might & Magic had open world exploration and noncombat character skills.
Name me 3 instances of roleplaying in the entire M&M franchise, shithead.

>>380826318
This. Please explain how Ultima isn't a crpg because it doesn't confirm to your arbitary definition of what makes a crpg.

>>380821924
>>380823952
>>380822034
What the fuck are you even doing in this thread then if you hate the topic of genre to begin with? Just so you can mouth off and vent your underage opinions and ramblings because your mind is still at it's age where being a contrarian feels good?

Is this a common occurrence now on nu-/v/, if you hate something you just have to voice your opinion about it in a thread that is discussing the very thing?

>>380820843
I haven't been following it that much, but it looks awesome.

>>380820843
My brother, I did not know this existed.
Now I do.
You have done me a solid.

>>380820843
>IT HAS A RELEASE DATE
I can't believe it. Not even exaggerating, I literally don't believe that it's ever going to be released.

>>380826551
>story
>having anything to do with RPGs
LMAO.

>>380826672
>my definition
>arbitrary definition
No to both. Now, let's see what a RPG actually is:

>I do not, and I stress NOT, believe that the RPG is "storytelling" in the way that is usually presented. If there is a story to be told, it comes from the interaction of all participants, not merely the Game Master--who should not be a "Storyteller" but a narrator and co-player! The players are not acting out roles designed for them by the GM, they are acting in character to create the story, and that tale is told as the game unfolds, and as directed by their actions, with random factors that even the GM can't predict possibly altering the course of things.

I'll let you figure out who said this yourself.

>The players are not acting out roles designed for them by the GM, they are acting in character to create the story
>acting in character
>to create the story

Acting in character - playing in a way that corresponds to your previous character generation and advancement choices.

The passage "to create a story" means that a RPG is interactive by very definition, so that players should be able to progress and solve quests and encounters in different ways.

Combine these two things and you get the definition of a RPG: a game where you can progress in different ways while staying in character or, in other words, a game where you can progress in different ways based on your previous character building choices.

So no, none of these games like M&M, Wizardry or Ultimas are RPGs. They're all either dungeon crawlers or h&s.

>>380826962
>>380826793
You don't understand.
I thought I was going to get to play this for my birthday.
In 1998.

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>>380826986
Even the most lauded games about choice on your list have a paltry amount of real choices available and only rival the shittiest of railroading dms. I'm not seeing the problem that some games offer less.

>>380826986
Seems like you just have bias against the D&D/Fantasy settings.

Can someone help me remember the name of a old dungeon crawler? When you start the game you enter a keep or a castle of some sort and you pick your party members by looking at paintings of them on the walls. I played it back in like 98~ and i can't for the life of me remember the name.

>>380827689
Dungeon Master my dude.

>>380827471
>have a paltry amount of real choices available
The amount of choices available is irrelevant, when it comes to determining whether a game is a RPG or not. What matters is their presence. If the number of character generation and advancement choices that provide the player with alternative ways of solving quests and encounters is paltry, it does not mean that the game lacks roleplaying, it just means that the roleplaying is limited in scope. That's the main difference between computer and tabletop RPGs: the scope of roleplaying, since in PnP you have a degree of reactivity to your character generation and advancement choices that is limited only by the DM's imagination. The definition of roleplaying is the same for both cases - being able to progress in different ways, based on how you've built your character.

>>380827626
>bias against the D&D/Fantasy settings.
Yeah, that's why I'm quoting the father of all D&D.

>>380820843
But will it run on my shit PC that I play those old games on because it can run them?

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>>380827093
Actually, it looks a hell of a lot better than 1998 dungeon crawlers. Pic is 1996, but same general time period.

>>380827747
YES that is the right one! Thanks for the aid my friend.

>>380827793
A quote for Gygax about what he feels sets rpgs apart from other types of games was definitely not about what kind of computer games totally suck because aren't rpgs because gary gygax said so.

>>380827793
Whatever dude, a crpg can never be a real rpg to begin with. The simple fact you're picking choices someone else wrote means it isn't really role playing.

>>380822034
This thing has been in development almost since those graphics were considered current.

>>380828089
It certainly does. Huge ass maps. Character options out the ass.
I used to play dungeon hack all the time as a kid, and I still have a copy loaded.

>>380828198
I fail to see how Fallout and Arcanum do not fall within that.

>>380828198
>a crpg can never be a real rpg to begin with
Define a "real RPG". Because a computer RPG sure as hell fits the definition of what I've quoted earlier.

>>380828164
>A quote for Gygax about what he feels sets rpgs apart from other types of games was definitely not about what kind of computer games totally suck because aren't rpgs because gary gygax said so.

Obviously, Dungeon Crawlers being shit is my opinion and I've never tried to present it as anything more than that, but there is a difference between Dungeon Crawlers and RPGs and it's very profound.

Quick build a party!

>>Half elf Fighter
>>Dwarf Cleric
>>Halfling Rogue
>>Human Barbarian
>>Human Ranger
>>Elf Wizard
>>Elf Sorcerer

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>>380820843
>4:3 game in 2017

>grid-based

*yawn*

wake me up when they're making a new Might & Magic game

>>380828757
>Male Human Cleric
>Female Half Orc Barbarian
>Male Elf Wizard
>Female Dwarf Fighter
>Female Halfling Thief
>Male Human Archer

>>380828757
Human male Barbarian leading via bold actions and reckless courage.
The silent and competent half elf male Fighter who constantly reminds the barbarian to temper his recklessness and has to save the the party from engaging things that are way out of their league from time to time.
Human female Ranger slut who flirts and blueballs everyone in the party and smells of wet dog.
The stout Dwarf Cleric wielding a greatshield and a hammer engaging his enemies in melee and is always right beside his barbarian and fighter pals to support them with healing and buffs without delay.

>>380829008
>he doesn't know about Might & Magic X.

Lucky bastard.

>>380828757
8x eyeball man class

>>380829087
>and smells of wet dog.
Why?

>>380829368
Because she would rather fuck dogs than men.

>>380829202
Ah, I see you are a man of taste as well

>>380823952
>Wasteland 1 and Darklands
lmao

>>380829412
Ayyye, I'm a druid gurl. You wanna upgrade to horse?

Are the classes/races listed anywhere? I need a couple weeks of autistic min/maxing before I'm ready to play the game.

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>>380820843
Is this the game Codex is losing their shit over?

>>380829575
What's so funny about those, you do know that Wasteland 1 has actual skillchecks that allow you to solve some non-combat situations in different ways, right?

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>>380829202
>Entire group of silent blinking eye guys
>makes every interaction with npcs awkward and uncomfortable

>>380826359
It doesn't matter, anon. They were RPGs of their era. Your historical revisionism doesn't work like that.

>>380829754
Just laughing at a retarded pleb who thinks Wasteland was the beginning of skill checks, while also believing it is the mechanic that makes a game an RPG. Just funny desu.

What are good classic dungeon crawlers for starters?

>>380829910
>Wasteland was the beginning of skill checks, while also believing it is the mechanic that makes a game an RPG
Nice strawman. Skillchecks themselves are not what makes a game a RPG, they are a tool to implement the concept of roleplaying. Skillchecks themselves are worthless froma roleplaying PoV, if they do not provide you with actual mechanical consequences or alternative ways of progress. For example, skillchecks that result in cosmetic flavor text are not something that makes a game a RPG.

>>380830121
nice job not reading faggot

>>380830185
Oh, but I've read your post precisely, no need to backpedal after pulling a strawman.

>>380820843
Huh.
Interface reminds me of Eye of the Beholder.
On that note, The Beholder looks like the best goddamn party member in that pic. More games need weird races.

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>>380829812
>party face is an eyeball paladin of odin, rocking a massive charisma score
>has no mouth, and thus no way with words or personal presence despite being the sexiest eyeball in all the land
>can't even wink suggestively because he doesn't have a second eye

>>380830106
Might & magic 6, Wizardry 8, Grimrock 2

remember to download the double combat speed mod for W8

>>380830287
no need to deflect after failing to understand english amigo

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>>380824274
Have fun my dude. Might and Magic 6 is my fave RPG of all time.

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>>380830328
No need to pretend you have an argument when you actually don't.

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>>380820843
>this is a big deal
HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA

>>380829812
>they just stare at the NPCs until they tell them what they want to know

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>>380830407

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> 20 years to make

When you decide that your game is too out-of-date and obscure to release, so you decide to wait until a new release platform with global access is developed and a wave of retro-gaming style is popular among the people laiden with too much money and too little entertainment

>>380830327
I happen to have Wizardry 6-8 in my Steam library from a random old bundle, will try it out.

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>>380830327
I'm amazed more games didn't copy Wiz8's character creation. Fuck your carefully written companions I'll play the game once and hear them divulge their life stories to me, let me fully create and customize companions with personalities and voices that will then play off of each other and comment on what's going on in the game.

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>>380830507

>>380830540
Wizardry 8, Might and Magic 6, and Jagged Alliance 2 talking heads will always be my favorite. Shame no modern RPGs do anything like that to give the game some character.

>>380828757
>Quick build a party!
7 dwarves of various classes and a human female peasant

>>380823952
So you're arguing that the dungeon crawling aspect of rpgs is trash in isolation? Or are you arguing that because they didn't accomplish their stated aim, then what ever they did accomplish would be trash regardless of what it was?

>>380830705
>implying that dwarves can be anything but miners and merchants

go back to your gold mine, dirt grubber

>>380830530
>too little entertainment
In a land where 40% of people's games on steam are unplayed that's a funny statement.

>>380830886
racist

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Whenever I get bored, I go and dig up an old abandonware DOS dungeon crawler. There's hundreds of them, and a lot of them are actually super weird and unique.
The jap stuff in particular can be really strange.
Take The Screamer, for instance, which is the original source of 'DEHUMANIZE YOURSELF AND FACE TO BLOODSHED'
There's a wonderful sense of discovery and exploration playing a game that very little has been written about in english- there's not really any guides for you to fall back on.

>>380831020
just hope there arent any language related puzzles

>>380830846
>So you're arguing that the dungeon crawling aspect of rpgs is trash in isolation?
Pretty much, yes, because dungeon crawlers are monotonous, pointless shitfests where you navigate the same fucking brown and grey corridors while fighting shit with a combat system that lacks any form of tactical depth. Of course, not all dungeon crawlers are the same, I was talking mostly about blobber trash where you have a first person view and an entire party is superposed onto a single "character" during combat, so no tactical movement with separate characters is possible. There ARE good dungeon crawlers out there, but they are not blobbers. A good example is Vagrant Story - a very non-traditional 3D game that fits the definition of a dungeon crawler, but plays nothing like it. The BBI portion of Dragon's Dogma also comes to mind.

H&s games are another issue, because h&s games can be really fucking good due to the fact that you can have tactically rich combat systems. I've played a lot of h&s games like Icewind Dale games or even Diablo back in the day, but the really early ones before these titles are just shit.

>Or are you arguing that because they didn't accomplish their stated aim, then what ever they did accomplish would be trash regardless of what it was?
The fact that the did not manage to accomplish their initial goal of being RPGs is not really the fault of the devs, at least when it comes to early dungeon crawlers, since it was really fucking hard to make an actual RPG back in the day due to budget constraints and tech limitations. The problem is that the dungeon crawling aspect is shit by itself when disconnected from the roleplaying aspect.

Of course, these are all strictly my opinions and are based purely on my tastes. Some people may like these kind of games, but then I just call them shit-eaters, heh.

>>380824510
get out idiot.

>>380831554
Was your mother raped by Wizardry or something?
There's plenty of strategy in blobbers- most of it is party composition, threat prioritization, and resource conservation, and they definitely advanced in complexity as the genre matured. Wizardry 6 has a ton of tactical options, for instance- multiple attack modes for every weapon and different block/dodge types. Tons of classes and spells to choose from, and class changing let you do even more. Just because you don't have a fancy grid to move around on it doesn't mean it's completely braindead.
The real joy of the game, at least in my opinion, is mapping out the dungeon and solving the assorted riddles and puzzles within it rather than only the combat system, though.

Is it because you're bad at orienting yourself in first person dungeon crawlers?

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>yfw DRPG kino is going to BTFO late 90s RPG imitators

>>380826214
That UI is a holdover from when computers weren't powerful enough to draw graphics across the whole screen, so they had to use large menu and UI elements to cover up for the tiny view. This is a positively prehistoric design choice.

>>380831020

The Screamer was released before turn based combat was commonplace in JRPGs. Pretty unique title.

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>all these stats

What the fuck? How are you supposed to know which ones to pick?

>>380832280
Yeah, the Screamer's unusual combination of first-person dungeon crawling and sidescroller combat is oddly charming. I'd love to see a modern take on it.

>>380831015
Yeah! They can be drunks and soldiers too! That's all though.

>>380831996
>threat prioritization
Something that any game with a combat system where you can fight multiple enemies has.

>resource conservation
Has nothing to do with the tactical depth of the combat system.

>multiple attack modes for every weapon and different block/dodge types. Tons of classes and spells to choose from, and class changing let you do even more
How is this any different from any party based RPG with good combat or even good h&s games?

Blobber shit lacks tactical movement with separate party characters during combat, compared to non blobber turn-based RPGs and h&s games. That's a HUGE chunk of tactical depth torn out of the system that will never allow any blobber shit to match games with movement during combat when it comes to tactical depth.

>>380825401

How exactly are Baldur's Gate 1, Baldur's Gate 2 and Icewind Dale 2 not classic RPGs?

>>380832423
Is FEL feeling?
Is DEV devotion?
I don't even have a clue what MET and DES would be.
God, look at all those damage types and status effects too. Is Galvanic damage a thing? What does system resistance do?

>>380832423
Holy shit that looks good...

Proper send in to oldschool RPG, not this modern bethesda trash.

>>380832423
Have you tried not being stupid? If so then just turn youself off and on again, your off switched is attached to the end of a gun and only works when the other end points to your face.

>>380832613
>How exactly are Baldur's Gate 1, Baldur's Gate 2 and Icewind Dale 2 not classic RPGs?
Name me 3 instances of roleplaying in each of these games or at least one of them so that we may have an argument.

>>380832726
Woah, buddy, don't run with that edge.

>>380832726
Please educate me on the importance of MET and DES, O Enlightened One

>>380820843
I bet you can't even have custom portraits in this. Why even play a dungeon crawler without them?

>>380832648
Galvanic would just be lighning, no clue about system.

>>380832423
...Is DES supposed to be Destiny or something? Is it a pretentious way of saying luck?

reminder to report and ignore codex shitposters
you can spot them by their use of the words blobber, incline, decline, popamole, as well as other codex references

>>380833291
>reminder to report and ignore codex shitposters
You've been out of the loop, buddy. Codex dumbfucks now consider BG2 - a pure h&s game, to be a top5 best RPG ever made. nuDex is a fucking joke.

>>380832837
>>380832840
Shut up and suck cleves dick

>>380833537
perfect example of a codex shitposter
avoid these people at all costs

>>380833537
So you're proud of being too much of an asspie for even Codexfags to tolerate? That would be impressive if it wasn't so sad.

>>380832810
>BG1
Choosing between the fishermen and the witch.
Deciding to help out a nymph or its captor.
Help some guy kill a bear, and if you are charismatic enough you can convince him to give you something better.
>BG2
Interactions with Anomen changes what he becomes.
Convincing that one guy in Watcher's Keep until he turns sane.
Deciding how to infiltrate the Cult of the Eyeless.
>IWD2
Your skills determine if you can accomplish something.
Your race determines interactions.
Your alignment determines interactions.

the graphics look like sh*t, why would any1 be excited for this?

>>380833882
>BG1 and BG2 instances

All of these are general C&C that have nothing to do with roleplaying, since none of your choices depend on your previous character generation and advancement decisions. As an example, I'll throw you a bone and name one instance of roleplaying from BG2: the stronghold quest, since the type of stronghold quest you get is determined by your class choice during character creation.

>Your skills determine if you can accomplish something.
>Your race determines interactions.
>Your alignment determines interactions.
Nonono, you name me exact instances, like you did with BG games, so that we may see what kind of consequences your character generation and advancement choices have. Do they allow you alternative ways of progress or some other clearly mechanical consequences that actually matter or maybe they're just meaningless cosmetic flavor bullshit? You don't need to name me all of them, just several concrete examples.

And, if you're going to argue that general choice and consequence that does not take into account your character build choices is somehow related to roleplaying, you're wrong.

When a game presents you with general dialogue decisions that in no way depend on your character generation and advancement choices, i.e. on the choices you've made while defining your role, it's not roleplaying, it's just that - general choices and consequences that have nothing to do with roleplaying. If general C&C could be considered roleplaying, then visual novels would be the best RPGs ever made, as they usually present the player with a superior number of actually meaningful C&C, compared to most actual computer RPGs, but that's not the case. Visual novels are not RPGs, because there is no roleplaying system involved that would allow the player to define his role himself, the player character is pre-defined and all the choices you make simply contribute to the general C&C.

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Suprised that no one posted that.

>>380826718
>What the fuck are you even doing in this thread then...?
Rightfully telling you that your taste is shit.

>>380834609
>does it have an adaptive plot that responds to player choice
So Visual Novels are the best RPGs ever made? "Roleplayers" in a nutshell.

>>380834550
>what kind of consequences your character generation and advancement choices have. Do they allow you alternative ways of progress or some other clearly mechanical consequences that actually matter or maybe they're just meaningless cosmetic flavor bullshit?

Your definition is beyond asinine. Is Super Mario Bros 2 a cRPG? After all, each of the four "builds" you choose greatly determines how your play turns out in that given level, sometimes to great effect. In fact, your advancement choices also mean something, because you can skip levels with potions, but you miss out on the goodies in-between.

>>380826718
I love these types of games, enjoyed Grimrock. Just wanted to say, any idea worth having, should hold up under scrutiny, and you should welcome the naysayers and smite them if your games are so great with well-crafted arguments. Or the latest meme

>>380834550
>And, if you're going to argue that general choice and consequence that does not take into account your character build choices is somehow related to roleplaying, you're wrong.
Goddamn you're retarded. You're saying that making an in-character choice in an actual pen-and-paper RPG isn't roleplaying?

>>380835441
>Your definition
Wrong, see my previous posts.

>super mario bros 2
Nice attempt, but you don't define your role in SMB2, you just pick a character and these characters have different abilities and movesets. By using the same "argument", you can conclude that even fighting games are RPGs.

No, a RPG allows you to define your role and then complete quests and encounters in various ways based on how you've defined your role. Now, you may try to present an "argument" that such a definition excludes games from PST from being RPGs, since your character is set in that game, but you would be wrong, since PST and other RPGs with set protags like Witcher 3, for example, allow you to some measure of character generation (initial stat distribution in PST), and advancement (subsequnet stat, skill, perk distribution when you level up).

all of the autists in this thread need to kill themselves right now

>>380835242
Yep. The same reason why a game like GTA manages to be a better simulator than some real simulators. Different genres which focus on different things. RPG with adaptive plot will be better than anything a visual novel can offer. A filthy slasher on the other hand is a worse RPG than your average VN.

>>380835578
>making an in-character choice
When you make a choice and your degree of success or failure depends on your previous character generation and advancement choices (i.e. your role definition), that's roleplaying. When you make a choice and your degree of success or failure is independent of your role definition via the game's roleplaying system (stats, skills, perks, background, whatever), that's just regular C&C.

If you try to argue against this, then you will have no way to argue against a claim that VNs are the best RPGs ever made, since they usually have shitloads more general C&C (i.e. choices that do not depend on your role definition) than any computer RPG.

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>>380836267
>Yep.

>>380834609
Also, I know this is a shitposting image, but the part about "responding to dialogue in three different and opposing manners" is actually a good point, except you should replace "dialogue" with "arising problems, quests and encounters". If you've played PnP RPGs, you may have heard of the "triple S rule", which basically means that any good GM should present the player with possible archetypal solutions to any problem, quest or encounter they take part in. These solution archetypes are Sneak, Speak and Slay and represent three different approaches a well made quest or encounter should have.

>>380834550
People might take you more seriously if you weren't desperately trying to argue that it's not roleplaying if a character sheet isn't involved.

>>380835987
Explain how Diablo 2 does not fit within your definition of cRPG. You have an initial character choice, you have advancement and you make decisions and consequences based on these factors. A fire sorceress isn't going to be killing a balrog since she has no way to deal with immunities, and thus ulterior movements must be made.

>>380837881
>it's not roleplaying if a character sheet isn't involved
It's not, because even the very first iteration of D&D had stats that were used to define the character's role. These stats were alignments and the GM could use them when determining the potential non player character reactions in the game and the type of rewards a character might get.

>>380838074
>Explain how Diablo 2 does not fit within your definition of cRPG
Because none of your character generation and advancement choices matter outside of combat. The only way you get to solve things is via combat, i.e. the only solution archetype available to you is "Slay". What if I want to play a cheeky rogue who bluffs and beguiles people instead of bashing their brains in? I can't, because Diablo is a h&s game, something very well defined by Gygax himself:
>As false to the game form as the pre-scripted "story," is play that has little more in it than seek and destroy missions, vacuous effort where the participants fight and kill some monster so as to gain more power and thus be able to look for yet more potent opponents in a spiral that leads nowhere save eventual boredom. So pure hack and slash play is anathema to me too.

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Is this the game by that insane RPG CODEX poster who claims he is a neanderthal?

>>380838334
Wrong. Diablo 2 has all solution archetypes.

>Sneak
Cloak of Shadows or teleport allows you to avoid almost everything in the game. Just like in PST, you cannot sneak by certain bosses, but it does work in most cases.
>Speak
Mind blast or conversion. Just like in PST, you cannot speak by certain bosses, but it does work in most cases.
>Slay
Just line in PST, you can slay just about everyone.

>>380838605
>Cloak of Shadows or teleport allows you to avoid almost everything in the game
And what's the point of that? Do you get to kill Diablo by sneaking around? You don't. In fact, you won't even make it to diablo if you try to sneak around the dungeons, as you won't get any xp and the higher level mobs will just eat you alive. In actual RPGs, you get XP for solving problems in general, not for bashing in brains exclusively, which means characters can progress by solving problems via any solution archetype.

>Mind blast or conversion
Again, what does this solve? This is not a solution archetype, you don't get any xp for ignoring monsters in Diablo apart from some very few quests, that can be solved by not killing anyone, but they are very few of them and you won't be able to level for shit. In fact, you won't even be able to reach some of them without killing shit and leveling up.

This is a very weak and forced argument and I don't even understand why you're even trying to present it.

>>380838439
Yup, he is a cray motherfucker and it is fun to watch anything he does. I look forward to his post-release rants and madness, assuming it actually releases.

>>380838439
>>380839641
He's also a golden retriever trivia expert, kek.

>>380838916
And what is the point of sneaking in PST? You avoid enemies, but you are missing out on EXP. What is the point of sneaking in FO1?

>>380839907
>And what is the point of sneaking in PST?
The point is to provide you with alternative ways of solving quests and encounters and by "solving" I mean actually solving them and getting the reward, not just ignoring content:

>Sybil is a thief who has entered the Tenement to plunder but is afraid to go any further. She will also tell you about the large gang of thugs in the main room. But she can give you a hint about how to get out without having to fight all the Thugs: You have to take the key from the Mage on the top floor at 19 and use it to open the locked door at 23, and sneak behind the boxes in the main room to the exit to the Alley of Lingering Sighs at 28. To complete this quest, you must either successfully sneak out without the Thugs in the main room noticing you, or you must kill all the Thugs. You get 1,000 XP for completing this quest, and the Tattoo of Tenement Shadows becomes available at Fell's Tattoo Parlor.

>What is the point of sneaking in FO1?
Sneaking in Fallout is related to Stealing as well and Fallout 1 has quests has quests that can be solved via the "Sneak" solution archetype, where you need to steal shit from someone without killing anyone. An example of this is a quest that requires you to steal a necklace from the merchants in the Hub in FO1.

You see, the difference between Diablo and actual RPGs is that actual RPGs actually reward you for solving problems in different ways and have opportunities where you can solve the same problems in different ways, based on how you've built your character. In Diablo you don't solve anything without killing.

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I came into this thread expecting autism.

You did not disappoint.

>>380838170
Congratulations, you're stupid as fuck.

>>380842739
Congratulations, you don't have an argument.

>>380843646
Yeah, I do, you're just way too retarded to understand it.

Hint: Roleplaying wasn't invented by Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson.

>>380844418
>Roleplaying wasn't invented by Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson.
Hint: the word of the father of D&D on what roleplaying is > your retarded opinion.

Real talk. You guys all know this game is gonna suck right? Not because of muh rpg qualities, but because former vaporware never fails to be hilariously disappointing.

>>380844761
It's a fucking blobber, of course it's going to be shit.

>>380820843
jesus christ this has to be the worst ui design ever. also when the fuck are we getting a non tile based game like that again?

>>380844753
It's not an opinion. Roleplaying predates D&D.

>>380845014
>Roleplaying predates D&D.
I'm sure you have better credentials than Gygax to define what roleplaying is. Please post them so we can all swoon over them.

>>380845229
Somehow I doubt Gygax would claim that freeform roleplayers or improv theater actors aren't actually roleplaying because they don't have character sheets.

>>380845229
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/role-play
>first recorded in 1945-50

>>380823952
>what is UU / Arx Fatalis

Dungeon crawlers are fine.
Gridbased Blobbers are questionable.

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I'm going to pirate the shit out of this

>>380845708
>freeform roleplayers
Uhh, you don't get to come up with meaningless, non-existent terms and pretend they actually mean something.

>>380845889
That says nothing about either PnP or computer RPGs, but nice try. Maybe you'll be able to present an argument at this rate eventually.

>>380824510

>Wizardry
> Dungeon Crawler

You've never played the series, right?

>>380824510
(you)

>>380824510
>MM Isle oft Terra
>Dungeon crawler trash

Geht fucked m80.
MM3 is an extremely solid RPG

>>380846051
>You've never played the series, right?
Oh, but I did and that's exactly what it is.

>>380825401
>no ultima
>literally one of the most interactive rpgs ever

You are an idiot
Get out

>>380846015
I didn't come up with shit. Freeform roleplay has been around for ages and is still roleplaying no matter how much you want to pretend that it's not.

>>380846138

So how exactly is Wiz 6 & 7 a dungeon crawler?
How does the conversation system tie into this, the alternative ways to do stuff, the fact that there are many ways of achieving the goal rather than going through tons of monsters?

>>380821924
>>380823952
>>DECLINE

Yeah, how should you feel immersed with grid based movement and when the world isn't filled with npcs who constantly suck yourt dick and breadcrumb every step for you. Glad we have modern masterpieces like Masseffect Androgena and Fagout.

I bet you think the infinity engine games are old school, you fucking newfag.

DECLINE

>>380846238
bake bread/10

>>380846265
>Freeform roleplay has been around for ages
So it's not related to videogames or PnP RPGs? Thanks for destroying your own argument, now I won't have to do shit.

>>380846238
>interactivity means it's a RPG
LMAO.

>>380826986
>a game where you can progress in different ways while staying in character or, in other words, a game where you can progress in different ways based on your previous character building choices

How does ultima not allow exactly that you goon? It had one oft the first deep morale systems additionally to having one of the first fully interactive item combination systems that allow exactly that. You can approach different problems in different ways without getting away too far from the Charakter you like to play. Yer fucked in the head mate

>>380825401

> No Ultima
> No Magic Candle
> No Daggerfall or Arena
> No Realms of Arkania

This really boils my noodle

>>380846547
>So it's not related to videogames or PnP RPGs?
Yes. That's literally the fucking point. Roleplaying existed long, long before D&D and can exist without character sheets or game mechanics whatsoever. If you weren't extremely fucking autistic I wouldn't have to explain this to you.

>>380846525
>>380846547
Nice arguments niggers

>>380846986
Wow, it's almost like you think you're worth the effort to correct.

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>>380829753
Aye, we are currently on page 1068 in the new thread