Are video games the best medium of storytelling?

The book will always be the best for the story, but game is the best way to explore a universe

Generally no, but it depends on the story you want to tell at the end of the day and your skill at working with the medium.

>>380596089
Anyone else here have to play vidya at 0.5x speed? It goes too fast for my brain otherwise.

>>380596868
So you play at 30 fps ?

>>380596089
>completely average writer
>witcher games give him gigantic exposure and fame for free
>continues to be a dick towards CDPR

No because players' actions have a very low chance of following the author's intentions to the last detail

No one medium can make the best story, the best story will be a of maximizing it's own media within that genre.

Books are video games.

>>380597084
he's a dick to them because he sold the rights to the games for 10k

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Literature>Visual novels>Video games>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>flicks>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>television, the lowest form of entertainment

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>>380596089

In their fully realized form years down the line from now? Potentially. Not in their current limited state, however, and not so long as D-Grade writers and directors dominate the medium with the occasional higher grade writer/director from the film industry attempting to create a game that's just a movie, rather than treating it as something wholly unique.

Even leaving aside the hypothetical future, all mediums are capable of telling stories and presenting said stories in a manner that other mediums simply cannot by their very nature. I would argue that there is no "best" medium for storytelling in general; what medium is the "best" is dependent entirely on what specific story you're attempting to tell.

>>380596089
Geralt and Ciri are much better characters in books. And politics in games does not make fucking sense at all.

Visual Novel is, but the west doesn't see anyone using its full potential.

>>380596089
>HarryPotter.png

>>380597225
*he's butthurt because he sold the rights to the games for 10k

>>380597359
>as videogaming grows, we will grow
>as videogaming dies, i will die

>>380596089
They are definitely a unique medium that has different strengths than books and movies.
Narratively speaking there are some things you can only do with video games which create an experience you can get nowhere else.

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>>380596089
since when Sapkowski became a meme?

>>380596089
Where's tv series? In terms of telling a complete story it's only second to books

>>380596089
No. They are a good medium for storytelling, but they do different things than books or films. You are asking whether a screwdriver is a better tool than a saw.

>>380596456
>The book will always be the best for the story,
I disagree, a book is a pre defined story, a game is an interactive story, so a game will always be better at story telling and letting the player make up their own journey.

like>>380597169
this

>>380597556
>In terms of telling a complete story
It's shit.

TV shows are USUALLY fucking horrible, because they stretch shit across twenty episode seasons which go on forever. This is American TV, of course. But even other TV is hampered by nonexistent budgets and, let's be honest, b-list talent.

>>380597598
>a book is a pre defined story
With the exception of weird metafiction, yes.
>a game is an interactive story
With the exception of cinematic experiences, yes.
>so a game will always be better at story telling
No.

>>380597276
This, by Zeus.

Games are terrible for story-telling. In most mediums, the writer can dictate the exact pace of the story. You can't do that in a video game since the audience controls the protagonist and can go at whatever pace they want.

>>380596089
They can be, usually just some casual fun though.

>>380596089
They do the most stuff, but practically everything is shit about them besides interactivity.
>Shit music.
>Shit VA (usually).
>Shit stories.
>Shit visuals compared to film.
Pretty much on par with musoc videos.

>>380597823
To be fair you can say the same thing for film and television and watching on 1.5 speed or having a slow/fast reading speed for books.

Games have the POTENTIAL to be the best storytelling medium, but no one has even come close to realizing that potential. And no, Shadow of the Colossus and The Last of Us are not the Citizen Kanes of vidya.

>>380598451
>but no one has even come close to realizing that potential
Yoko Taro
Tetsuya Takahashi
Hideo Kojima

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>>380597482
>he's butthurt because he sold the rights to the games for 10k
Hahahahaha, fucking retard, he deserves to be as butthurt as he is

>>380598637
>Hideo Kojima

pfffhahahaha

I hope you aren't being serious.

>Are video games the best medium of storytelling?

No, but stuff like the Witcher works way better as video games than they do as books. As a book the Witcher is a pretty generic young adult story; as a game where you get to make choices in a very morally muddy world the Witcher is great.

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>>380596089
Word count:
>War and Peace: 561k
>Planescape Torment: 1M

bookfags btfo

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>>380598760
>it's a /v/ pretends MGS2 is bad episode

>>380596456
I think it's more on a game-by-game basis. If we're talking strictly about book to game vidya, it's really up in the air, but generally speaking, the book will be the best to TELL a story, while games are better at SHOWING.

While it's entirely possible for a game to be the best medium for storytelling, often it falls to the wayside in favor of gameplay. So things like exposition and 50 minute talks between characters without any development tend to meet the curb.

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After playing mgs5 I think they are.

>>380598974
>>380599017
Good concepts marred by hokey writing and over-the-top characters. Also it's a story that would work just as well in the form of an anime or a movie.

>>380597276
what's flick?

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>>380597359
So NOW you give a fuck about Adam West, so NOW you dont hate him like you bigots did for over 30 years...
Ugh

>>380596089

It has the potential but so far there hasn't been anything that's done it to the fullest.

>>380596456
fpbp

>>380596089
>best medium of storytelling
>main character has to be a blank tard
>everything has to stop and wait for the player to do 1000 sidequests before saving the world
>nothing can react to your actions realistically beyond a few programmed choices

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>>380599175
>Also it's a story that would work just as well in the form of an anime or a movie.

>>380598760
well, he did try in the first four games. Only the last one was shit.

and yes, I know about MSX you autist

>>380597182
Holy shit! Someone actually gives a good answer?

The problem with modern gaming is that it has no idea about the specificity of its own medium. This is why any desire for photo realism and "cinematic" qualities is usually bad for gaming. It typically indicates a mind-set that wants a game to be something else.

>>380599246
MGS4

>>380598923
Now compare the quality of writing

>>380597359
Stop fooling yourselves, video games have had their best eras already. It's going to be downhill from now since the budgets of games are too big to create "experiences" that aren't predefined. All video games from now on are going to focus on cinematic aspect.

>>380596089
Nope. Games are just that, games. Trying to force them to be something they're not is how you get 'cinematic experiences'.

>>380599281
Moments like Psycho Mantis and the end of MGS3 where you're walking through the river are cool but they don't actually add that much to the story or the characters.

>>380597276
>Visual novels>Video games
It's time to kill yourself.

>>380599521
I was specifically talking about MGS2.

>>380599298
>This is why any desire for photo realism and "cinematic" qualities is usually bad for gaming.

How are they bad for gaming? They're storytelling tools that can be used for good or ill, but they're still viable tools. That's like saying movies shouldn't have soundtracks and should leave audio to music.

>>380598637
>>380599017
>>380598974
I am laughing for real if you people really think Hideo Kojima's bullshit comes anywhere close to good literature.

>>380597359
This quote is from the 80s or something, isn't it?

>>380599598
Joke's on you I've never played MGS2.

>>380599708
We're talking about his unique way of storytelling in MGS2. That's all.

>>380597598
A story is something that is told to you. A game cannot be better than a book because you either have gameplay driven player experiences or a watered down movie/t.v. show.

>>380599806
Constant cutscenes?

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>>380599795
>not playing in release order

>>380599351
>era of experimentation and creating new experiences and mechanics and shit is over
>we're in the era of trying to be movies and failing
th-thanks

>>380599349
>War and Peace
Russian propaganda written by a drunk old man. No one today cares about it or has read it.

>Planescape Torment
A look at how terrible immortality would be, the existential absurdity of "reality" and the nature of men.

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>>380599795
>commenting on games you haven't played

>>380597650
Animelation exists you know
It's also the superior medium, and I don't just mean Japanese anime, I mean animation in general
As a medium it is wholly superior to anything live action simply by not being constrained by reality
Animation is the best non-interactive storytelling medium, ttrpgs are the best interactive medium, video games are a great balance between those two

everything depends on the people who deliver it

>>380599351
>>380599925

t. autismo

Games haven't hit their cap yet. I'd argue that the current MUH CINEMATIC meme is still just more experimentation, this time aimed at blockbuster movies.

We haven't even started to scratch the surface.

That feel when no one can truly experience games like Xenogears unless they play the game. Us gamers...

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>>380600027
Like it makes any difference, I was never going to change your opinion anyway.

>>380600065
Animation is good, I agree. It's potentially on par with literature.

Of course it's not the best, however. You would have to be entirely ignorant of literature to think such a thing.

>>380600123
what unexplored potential do you think there is?

>>380599968
Whining about immortality is boring tripe that's been done to death
Planescape made gold out of a boring subject

>>380596089
They have the potential, but we're 200 years too early, specially with the cinematic experience faggots pushing the media on the exact opposite direction it needs to go to tell stories.

>>380600230
>Planescape made gold out of a boring subject
How did it do that unless the writing is excellent?

only retards read books for the story

>>380600193
Why is literature better?
Animation is literature plus images and sounds
Literature is more respected simply because of its age

>>380599349
I'm Russian, so I've read the original. It's quite shit, boyo. Tolstoi is a second-rate propaganda writer who really, REALLY wanted to blow Ortodox Church the fuck out and become a new messiah. War and Peace is atrociously written garbage with completely melodramatic plot and tacked on exploration of Russian history. Dostoyevski and Goncharov shit all over Tolstoi in terms of talent, hell, even Turgenev is a much better writer, despite completely lacking in range. Read more if you think Tolstoi is anything worthy of mention.

>>380596089
If they get good writers it could be.
I really liked Witcher: hearts of stone. Even though there are a lot of books with better stories I think hearts of stone was a step in the right direction for a fun mystery story

>>380596089
Video games generally aren't that good for storytelling, simply because it is not their main focus (gameplay) and making a good story that works well with gameplay without getting in its way is much harder to do than write a story for a book.

>>380600307
It is
War and peace instead is the opposite as it squandered excellent potential

>>380600383
Not the same guy but literature has the advantage of not being constrained by time or storytelling conventions. Even the best animated movies and shorts have to follow some kind of story structure and keep the pace moving. In literature it's not uncommon to have entire chapters divulging on details that have nothing to do with the main plot thread, but enhance the overall story nonetheless.

>>380599968
>A look at how terrible immortality would be

Not really. The Nameless One has a very specific and extra shitty version of immortality.

>>380600502
>DUDE FAUST LMAO

>>380600551
I'm not talking about movies, you can make a series and do whatever you wamt, wasting hours just to drive a point home
Remember endless eight?

>>380600503
>gameplay and story are inherently at odds with each other
How? Explain.

>>380596089
It has the potential to be, but most people don't know how to use the medium properly.

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>>380600219
>what unexplored potential do you think there is?
See that kid Milo up there? You can show your dick to him

Seriously, once we are already reaching photorealistic graphics, and after that the AI will blow our minds, Imagine the things AI in 10 or 20 years will be capable of

>>380600383
>Why is literature better?
As a medium it's not better, it's just different. However, literature has been around a lot longer, and also it's WAY easier to write a book as a poorfag loner artist than it is to make an animation, and the end result of this is there's a hell of a lot better literature than animation.
>Animation is literature plus images and sounds
You are ignorant of literature.

Literature provides very long-form art, allowing the extreme of character development. It also allows you to see inside the worlds/heads of characters, or the narrator, &c., and allows non-visual metaphors -- basically it does a lot of things animation can't, just as animation does a lot of things literature can't.
>>380600543
Umm, sweetie, hating Tolstoi is MY thing.

>>380600587
I said a fun story, not a deep or original one.

>>380596089
In theory, yes. In practice devs are just too lazy to make the best use of their narrative potential.

>>380600587
>hating on not one, but TWO (2) great works of western literature

>>380600795
I don't hate Faust and W&P is trash, so your argument is factually, objectively incorrect.

>>380600661
Not him but sometimes a story in movie or book can be fairly non-eventful in terms of anything you could make a video game out of but still a great story. There Will Be Blood would make an awful game.

>>380600383
If your argument that animation is better than live-action is that animation is not restrained by reality, then literature would follow as even better as it is not constrained by reality or production.

>Animation is literature plus images and sounds

It is not. There is artistry in how language is used. The description of a flower can be more beautiful than the image of one, because how it's described is unique and gives insight to the one describing it.

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>>380599758
>>380600123

>>380600219
I think he's basically referring to the nonexistent video game equivalent of a Faulkner novel or an Emily Dickinson poem, where every single pixel, mechanic, and every other element that goes into making a game has a reason to exist that can be defended, and is used meticulously for the construction of a greater narrative
>>380600383
But the best literature can create images as fleshed out and pronounced as any animation, sometimes with only a few words, and the phonetics of the words it employs can be manipulated to produce a certain type of sound as well as enhance the image or concept created by them; there are multiple literary devices that deal with this concept specifically

>>380600898
I was talking about Goethe and Marlowe you uncultured fool.

>>380597359
/lit/ has arrived

>>380596089
No. Because real writers, directors, or creative types, aren't going to make a game.

>>380600551
In other words, a lot of literature has bullshit filler rather than getting to the point.

A truly skilled writer tells a story in the least amount of time possible. Superfluous detail is often compensation for poor prose or bad characters and plot.

>>380601109
Not the original German storybook based directly on the folk tale? I'm disappointed in you, pleb.

>>380600685
>once we are already reaching photorealistic graphics
We're already pretty close, and photorealism doesn't make a better game, just better graphics, and even then only on a technical level.

>and after that the AI will blow our minds, Imagine the things AI in 10 or 20 years will be capable of
AI is a tool in game making, not really meaningful on its own. If you have the best AI ever in a game that's boring as shit, what have you accomplished?

If your goal is to make a life simulation, that's not a game.

>>380599208
God, Dobson doesn't know shit about comics.

>>380601221
Only a brute would deign to read anything written by that barbarous lot.

Goethe doesn't count because he was basically a woman.

>>380601060
This line of thought is a legitimate way of outing someone as a blowhard retard with only passing knowledge of the medium. For fuck's sake, retards who never delve deeper than surface and proceed to cry that '[medium] is ded!!!111' make me furious.

>>380597598
No because vidya is much more restricted by tech and money/time

>>380601214
Wrong. It's actually fairly attractive. Not sure why. I mean it's good, because vidya is a good medium.

>>380601348
>implying he wasn't hitting Schiller's cute bussi somewhat fierce
>implying he wasn't the alpha in the German literary pack
You're delusional

Anyone who thinks their precious little toy is art should read Roger Ebert's article on this.
Fucking kids these days

>>380597598
interactive stories will always, always be worse than predefined stories. The best video game stories aren't interactive at all, just gated behind gameplay.

>>380601356
Blame conservatives. It's them who push this EVERYTHING IS GOING BAD narrative at every turn.

>>380596089
>reading books doesn't hurt my eyes
>playing video games does
Anyway, an idiot player would still skip every cutscene and dialogue, and/or just beating records completing the game, or/and pretend he liked the game because he liked it "it's fun!".
Same as an idiot reader who would only read the blurb or only the first chapter, or reading 1 page per second pretending he did understand anything.

>>380601356
This era of cinematic experiences really is taking the medium in the wrong direction though.

>>380601463
I would like to remind you that we are talking about the "man" who wrote The Sorrows of Young Werther.

>>380597084
it's a shitty argument anyhow, because his little novellas got exposure because of the 90's television series and the comic books, and it just went on from there.

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>>380601220
>muh brevity
t. Brainlet

A truly skilled writer understands that there is no universally correct way of telling a story and that conventions are meant to be pushed.

>>380601491
Roger Ebert can't even into film criticism, you think he's got anything meaningful to say about vidya?

>>380596089
No.

Games are actually by their nature averse to traditional storytelling, IMO. Giving the audience agency means you either lose control of how the story is delivered, or you just restrict their agency during story segments which kind of squanders the medium.

In a book, you can control how you describe a scene in every aspect to affect the reader perfectly. In a movie, you have less control, but you can still setup the scene and capture the shots and performances you need to sell the feeling.
In a game, the player might run in circles while jumping and shooting wildly during your deep emotional scene and ruin it for themselves.

>>380601220
>A truly skilled writer tells a story in the least amount of time possible.
That's not necessarily true, a writer can theoretically take as much time as they need or want to tell a story, but every word they use has to have some sort of purpose; purple prose can be good but it needs to have a purpose, even if that purpose is the linguistic depiction of nothingness or a lack of purpose. There is meaning in the concepts of purposelessness and nothingness. Essentially, if the writer needs to defend the right of every single one of his words and punctuation marks to exist on the page; if he can, the writing is good no matter how long the story is.

>>380601491
Roger Ebert doesn't know shit about video games. Why would I care to hear him talk about something he doesn't know about, when he's often even retarded on movies?

In any literature worth reading the story is superfluous.

>>380601735
See, you technically just agreed with him. That would be in the least amount of time possible. It's just, that anon thinks "least amount of time possible" = "a short amount of time".

I think in order for games to hit their potential they need to stray away from the 'blank slate main character/YOU are the main character' format they keep insisting on, give you control of characters that have their own values, and let the player decide whether to follow or go against those values.

The Witcher is a good example of a game that comes close to that style, even though it's an RPG with dialogue choices, Geralt is very much his own character, and you can decide to do things that are out of character for him and the people around him react accordingly, especially people that know him well like Triss or Yennifer. It doesn't *quite* hit the high notes that it could though, since Geralt is mostly neutral by nature, but t's in that ballpark.

The idea that you can make a great, nonlinear story where the player is the main character is flawed because playing as yourself isn't that compelling, after all we read/watch/listen to stories to see the world through someone else's eyes. A game that truly filters its universe through the eyes of someone with their own unique take on said world would be amazing.

Like, and this is a shitty example, imagine a game where you played as a racist, paranoid drug dealer in new york, almost like a Travis Bickle character, and in the game, everyone would seem like they're looking straight at you, blacks, jews and all the like would be blown out of proportion to be racist stereotypes, maybe the game would control differently based on the drugs you took or the mood your character was in (sort of like NARC), and so on.

Games have so much potential to make you FEEL like someone else but they seem to waste it on cookie-cutter experiences.

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>>380601439
Has there ever been any articles/essays or speeches on how to use gameplay to tell a story as opposed to using cutscenes and post-it notes and books of lore?

>>380600661
>>380601026
Narrative dissonance is incredibly common in video games. For example: in GTA you can have dialogue between characters discussing violence and cruelty only for the player to start gunning down civillians a few moments later.
Creating a story that is good and makes sense both during cutscenes and gameplay is very difficult because there is so much to consider.

>>380601796
Quite. I read literature for only the highest ideals: the tasteful cover, the smell of paper, and impressing the girl at the Barnes and Noble counter.

>>380600685
>and after that the AI will blow our minds, Imagine the things AI in 10 or 20 years will be capable of

AI in games hasn't advanced since the 90s, I doubt we'll see any improvements in the coming decades.

>>380601796
How do you figure? At the very least, the story has to act as an effective vehicle for whatever elements you consider valuable.

>>380601940
Probably.

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There's two directions you can go with games.
Either you can tell the story of the player's play-thought or you can force the player into the story.

"Cinematic experience" directors seek to push the games into the forcing the player direction because it's all they know how to do.
They just write a book, and expect the player to act like an actor, playing his role on the book, and every time a playtester don't play the role as the director expect, he limits more and more until most players play the role as he wishes em to.

>>380596089
>implying books have more to them than film
Fucking lol, and it's not supposed to be contest of volume.

>>380597524
i keep seeing that yellow and green badge, what do it represent/mean?

>>380601992
dip

>>380601946
What about non-sandbox games?

>>380601796
I know I only read the pages numbers.

>>380601818
But to say a writer needs to tell a story in the least amount of time possible implies that there's a singular objective of finishing a single narrative. What about something like Infinite Jest wherein it's just a bunch of anecdotal stories with no central plot? You could conceivably add an infinite number of extra stories onto that (no pun intended) and they could still be just as valuable.

>>380602034
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoshinsha_mark

>>380601576
Cinematic experiences literally run surface-deep. Have you ever tried 30's mainstream cinema? Faggy jazz singers and infatuation with sound recording everywhere. It happens in every medium, technology makes a break and grubby businessmen try to siphon money from gullible idiots with it. It will blow over like any other fad, because the next generation of people will break into the industry and do some good, before inevitably aging and also becoming grubby businessmen. For now, all you have to do is look a bit deeper than surface. And, unless you're trying to be a prominent game designer, don't worry about the industry, it will sort itself out.

>>380602181
Then it wouldn't be the same story.

>>380602049
The important part is tobacco?

>>380601785
>when he's often even retarded on movies
Not that guy, but can you give some examples?
I think that he can write really well when he wants to, did you check his review of Tati's movies? I love them.

>>380602235
But it's not even one story. There's no beginning or end to it. The words, ideas and characters simply exist with no structural context. That's why literature is such a powerful storytelling medium, because "stories" like that can exist.

>>380602184
oh that's neat, thank you :)

For fuck's sake. Games are a theatrical art form, they don't rely on tightest plots as much as they do on meaningful character interactions and interesting characters representing different viewpoints of game's overarching thematic narrative. Games will never have stories as tight as movies but that's great and in the 90's and early 2000's many games, especially Japanese ones, had marvelous writing.

>>380601818
Yeah, you're right. I was arguing against that anon's definition of "least amount of time." See, this demonstrates the possibility of writing as a medium right here. "Least amount of time" had multiple interpretations as to its meaning, and depending on which meaning you choose to dispute, you may accidentally end up agreeing with the one you oppose because of these multiple meanings.

>>380600383
Vision for starters.
Anime still has to be approved by investors.
Also, anime is limiting because the story has to be told in tidy chapters or in a movie.
On top of that, Japs just aren't good story tellers and tend to stick to cliches. Even shit people here like to fellate, like Berserk, fucking blow.

>>380596089
I don't think so. Too many games have shit gameplay and interesting stories. So you have to ask yourself. Play a shit game for bits of story here and there or read/watch something and get nothing but the story.
Here's my example
>playing an Arkam game
>realize I have to go through about an hour of shit gameplay to get some story
>quit and go back to reading the comics instead

>>380596089

>Muh books

Books bore the shit out of me. It's not even a matter of needing visual stimulation, I just hate how so many authors write.

>>380601948
Try themes, m8. Read for themes. The difference between fiction and philosophy is superficial.
>>380601992
But aren't necessary, see above. It's just one way of many to express an idea.
>>380602163
Judging by your post I'd say you read the likes of JK Rowling, Stephen King, or JRR Tolkien. To that I'd say, reading the page numbers is infinitely more valuable than reading their work.

>>380597276
Tv is getting better than movies senpai.

>>380602464
It's still a story you dongle. Even the most hardcore metafictional pseud can't escape it.

To put it another way: if you remove a story from Canterbury Tales, it will become a different story, because each story changes the implications &c. of the others.
>>380602643
Themes arise from story. Also story doesn't = plot on /v/, because it has to refer to EVERYTHING non-technical or gameplay-related in a video game.

>>380602659
TV is still shit, don't even try this garbage. You will be 'better' when you have a 100 of years of actually interesting shit going for you, not Quentin-tier 'HBO philosophy'

>>380602756
>literally arguing that a medium being older inherently makes it better and more artful

>>380596089
For storytelling, if you've got one creative bone in your body, then a book is the superior medium. The reason I bring up the creative bone thing is that as a reader you'll be cooperating with the writer of the book create the world. You're suspending your sense of disbelief when what you're really doing is just looking at symbols on paper and you're allowing those symbols to create a world inside your mind. I think there is something magical about that.

>>380602728
>Themes arise from story.
No, as previously mentioned the story, in the case of fiction is a vehicle for the theme or themes. Also, as previously mentioned, this is not necessary for expressing the themes and ideas one wishes to express. Therefore, it is superficial.

>>380601785
>>380601716
Hahahah you dense fucks
Yes actually, his viewpoint is very refreshing and sensible. But since you never expose yourself to anything that contradicts your worldview you also never get wiser

>>380602016
The problem with "Cinematic experience" is that they rely on cutscenes as a crutch, with gameplay just being the thing you do to get to the cutscene, the challenge for linear games isn't to get good writers who can write a movie or a book, it's to get writers(preferably good ones) who can think outside the box to tell a story using the gameplay it self. I don't even know if that's possible or not. Maybe people are too dumb to "get" a story through gameplay.

>>380602843
Not inherently, just realistically. Literature has everything from Gilgamesh to some po-mo babby's fart.

>>380602843
I'm not arguing for older=better. I'm arguing for the fact that what TV fags praise as great is still utter garbage. Name me 10 TV series that give as much to the viewer as classic cinema does.

>>380602643
How do you deliver themes without a narrative of some kind?

>>380602534
>in the 90's and early 2000's many games, especially Japanese ones, had marvelous writing

Name five(5).

>>380602116
Dissonance still exists, because you have moments like in DMC3 where you can beat vergil without taking a hit and then in the cutscene that follows he is all like: "nuh-uh, that didn't happen" and stabs you in the gut.
Honestly, games have an even greater potential for storytelling than books due to their interactivity. The main problem is that, trying to make a good story takes away dev time that could be used on other things, which is why story focused games don't play that well and the average game plot is a dumpster fire.

>>380602947
How could someone talking about literature have practically illegible syntax? Not him btw.

>>380602947
This is classic pseudism. Anon, you can't subsist entirely on memes.

Would you seriously do away with Achilleus' rage and Hektor's terror?
>this is not necessary for expressing the themes and ideas one wishes to express
I suppose that's true. You could write an essay.

>>380602852
But you can read stuff in games no? Like fallout, there is a ton of stuff to read.

>>380602984
>>380602985
Oh, so the argument is that old shit that survived the test of time while other things did not because they were garbage, is better than better than new shit where you can see everything that's available, including the garbage?
Or do you care to compare modern film to modern TV?

>>380600219

I'll let you know in the next 30 years.

>video game better at storytelling than a good book

Absolutely no chance ever. Stop trying to make your basement dweller hobby credible.

>>380602992
Directly, I would say. As in philosophy. Look at GWF Hegel's Phenomenology of Spirit, as an example.

>>380603157
>Oh, so the argument is that old shit that survived the test of time while other things did not because they were garbage, is better than better than new shit where you can see everything that's available, including the garbage?
Yes.

>>380596995
This explains so much

>>380598748
What's funnier it was 10k pln about 2k dollars today, about 1k dollars at the time

>>380602951
I am Socialist and I read Fascist literature.

What was your point?

>>380603056
I just think you aren't used to reading. I've encountered this many times in the uninitiated.
>>380603108
I said unnecessary not obsolete.

>>380603125
you're fucking kidding me? fallout, skyrim all those shitty games have astonishingly bad writing in those 'books' that lay around, read a proper book instead.

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>>380596089
A picture can paint a thousand words. Most films are shown in a silky 20 pictures per second, for 2 hours straight. Games are 60 pictures per second for up to 80 hours.

Books absolutely pale in comparison.

>>380596868
I typically use the speedhack in cheatengine to go faster. 2x, 3x, sometimes even 5x.

>>380603373
It's not unnecessary. It might be unnecessary in an essay, but it's not unnecessary in fiction. Iliad isn't the Iliad without the rage and terror (and many other things besides), and the same applies to all other non-weird literature.

>>380596089
Best medium is comics, followed by animation.
Problem is 99.99999% of them are SHIT

>>380602947
You are conflating plot with story. The story is formed by all the elements including the plot and themes. It can only exist through and cannot be separated from the pieces that compose it.

>>380603373
No, I've read a great deal actually. But feel free to speculate without grounds -- either way that doesn't change your god awful syntax. Never put the pen to paper again, anon.

>>380600132
Lol, people actually think weeaboo shit have good stories

I don't fucking understand why you shitters want videogames to be "art" or compete with books or whatever. I just want to play a game with good mechanics. You just ruin the industry, fuckheads.

>>380603376
Maybe he means 1 and 2? I've never played them but they're CRPGs so

>>380602969
Its very hard to get a story from gameplay. Lore and the universe as well as well as background sure, but a story? Thats very difficult. Let me ask you. Has DnD and other tabletop roleplaying games created a better story through gameplay? Its hard to judge for me because that same gameplay in those games is brought about through words and roleplaying by the players and the DM. The simple mechanics of a game (rolling the dice) with no other context for telling a story is hard for me to see?

>>380602951
the best thing about Ebert is that you can go back and see how wrong he was when he reviewed movies back in the day. he gave a lot of negative reviews to movies which are now considered classics and masterpieces, even he himself backed down and admitted his mistakes. spineless, jawless fag. stand by your argument if you even had one. he apparently did not. fucking idiot.

>>380603583
Troglodytes should be killed.

>>380599190
a self contained movie

>>380603620
>stand by your argument if you even had one
Dumb

People can change their minds.

What's pertinent is that he had such dumb criticism in the first place.

>>380599190
non-kino

>>380597276
I don't like reading so literature is for me lower than tv

>storytelling should be the goal of video games
>storytelling is what makes something art
>other such dumb bullshit
I mean, they can do it if they want, and in ways other mediums are not capable of, but shouldn't the focus be on the interactive systems, the game mechanics and shit?

>>380603728
stopped reading right there

>>380603620
>>380603680
How dare he disagree with the consensus.

I can't beleive people are unironically disscussing this. 99% of videogame stories are stupid as fuck

>>380603520
No, you miss the point yet again. Fiction, or in this case a mythoi, is not such without story, I don't deny this. What I am positing is that to express a theme or idea, as Homer did, the story is not necessary. The story is the plate, while the themes are the food.

>>380603760
>but shouldn't the focus be on the interactive systems, the game mechanics and shit?
You STEMfags honestly disgust me.

Game mechanics ARE story. And no, there is no "should". Read Stirner, you fucking pleb. Eventually you'll realise he was wrong but you need to do it anyway.

>>380596089
they are the worst, story telling in a game only makes for a boring game

>>380603728
>spends 12 hours a day reading shitposts on 4chan
>doesn't like reading

Pick one.

>>380603620
He also gave some really mediocre movies a high score

>>380603680
they can, but if I had a point back in the day which was founded upon whatever the fuck was bothering me I would stand by that and not back down, because a lot of other people agreed upon something else. Movies, music, art in general are subjective, so you can't be wrong. I doubt that he changed his mind about all those movies that he scored so badly, retroactively agreeing with the hive mind just looks better.

>>380603843
Themes come from the story.

Without the story there are no themes.

Yes, you can use an essay to relate those themes. Well done. You could also use a film, or a painting. What you are positing, if this is really what you are positing, is not worth taking up a post in this thread.

>>380603843
>Still at it with shitty syntax and grammar.
Christ anon, don't ever try to write.

>>380603552
>The story is formed by all the elements including the plot and themes.
How could you expect me to know your malformed, esoteric definition and assume it over more commonly accepted definitions?
>>380603569
It depends what you've read. Maybe you've only read drivel like King or Tolkien. Who is to say.

>>380603873
>Game mechanics ARE story
Tetris is not a story.

Shouldn't you /lit/fags be, like, reading a book? Instead you're just reading comments about not playing videogames. Pathetic...

>>380596089
Visual Novels.

>Policenauts made me contemplate if I would ever feel such feels after beating a game ever again

>>380603012
Western:
Thief 1-2 (wonderful post-modern reworking of noir themes)
Fallout 1 (2 went too far with pop culture)
Alpha Centauri (motherfucking Lal alone elevates this game into stars)
Grim Fandango (again, noir theming, a very different type of it tho)
Marathon/Sanitarium/The Longest Journey (take your pick, whatever)
Jap:
killer7
FFT/Tactics Ogre/Suikoden (Japs love political shit and generally work better with it than Western shitters)
Legend of Mana (I've never seen a more thematically angled storytelling in any other game)
Vagrant Story/Silent Hill 1-2
FF9

Wasn't hard at all. If you answer with 'oh, but those are all shit' I'll know full well you don't understand what storytelling in games is and how it works. These threads don't promote discussion anyway, so I preemptively bestow upon you the title of 'massive fag'

>>380596456
Just because we don't see actually good writers working on a game story doesn't mean "the book always wins".
Perhaps the only downside is the fact that your imagination isn't working as hard, which isn't that good for kids, but is completely irrelevant to adults.

>>380604093
Wrong. It's your struggle against inevitable failure, among other things.

>>380603838
disagree all you want, he stopped disagreeing later though, weird, right? fucking shiteating ebertfan, be quiet.

>>380596089
I unironically think it is. No other medium has the same ability to put you in the story.

However, no video game has actually utilized the full potential of the medium yet, and surface level pleb shit like Uncharted and Witcher 3 is hailed as "good".

>>380604038
That is not true at all. I'm not sure you know what a theme is. Sorry, but you are totally wrong here.

>>380604079
king and tolkien are still miles better than planescape, fallout or whatever the fuck else you consider to be good writing in video games.

>>380604150
Is Poker a story?

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>>380596089
If it's a game that truly utilizes the full potential that games as a medium have then yes, I fully believe that to be the case.

>>380604110
Shouldn't you, like, be playing a video game bitch nigga?

>>380604049
Learn to read, or point out a specific flaw other than "shiddy".

>>380600417
You're retarded.

>>380602609
Brainlet

>>380604079
>How could you expect me to know your malformed, esoteric definition and assume it over more commonly accepted definitions?
Because I already told you. >>380602728
>or Tolkien
Bloom wants a word with you, pleb.
>>380604249
King really isn't better. He's actually quite a bit worse.
>>380604206
No my friend, you.

Videogames have the unique quality of being interactive. It's like a stage play that you partake in.

That alone separates it from other mediums where you are an observer.

>>380603620
Why don't you just read what he says about the topic instead of trying to illegitimize him

>One obvious difference between art and games is that you can win a game. It has rules, points, objectives, and an outcome. Santiago might cite a immersive game without points or rules, but I would say then it ceases to be a game and becomes a representation of a story, a novel, a play, dance, a film. Those are things you cannot win; you can only experience them.

While there is a part that is "experiencíng" in games, those elements can always be reduced to the traditional storytelling, or visual or whatever. What makes you really like a game is it's mechanics, and that's that same as like Chess.

>>380604254
Yes, but now we're getting dangerously close to my personal autism re: everything has story.

>>380604156
I agree that he shouldn't flip-flop to save face, but you're a fucking retard if you think it's wrong to think something is shit just because most people think it's good.

>>380604249
I haven't once mentioned well formed written expression in video games. But King and Tolkien are the scum at the bottom of the barrel, considering their writing actually hinders the development of a reader.

>>380602659
Problem with T.V is that most shows don't encourage actual growth for character development and instead involve characters staying mostly the same and gaining small skills to overcome obstacles they didn't expect.

It's more about staying the same rather than changing for the sake of character growth.

>>380604465
The fact you think Tolkien is part of that cesspool suggests to me that you are a pseudypoos.

>>380604429
>but now we're getting dangerously close to my personal autism
re: my goal

So now that it's over, why did we never find the Heaven Sward?

>>380604376
>Because I already told you.
Then why should I accept such a nonsensical definition?
The fact that you cite Bloom shows how far standards in western literature have fallen.

>>380604528
The fact that you hold Tolkien in high esteem tells me you don't really know what you're talking about.

>>380604586
>Then why should I accept such a nonsensical definition?
Because descriptivism > prescriptivism, kid.

>>380604465
And they're still better than videogame drivel.

>>380599703
>an audiovisual medium shouldn't have audio
Meanwhile, cinematic qualities, like cutscenes, take away from the one thing that make video games unique, the interactivity.
Cutscenes are the cancer killing video games.

>>380604319
>thinks Tolstoy, the original pseud, wrote anything worthy in his life
>calls someone else retarded
>>380604427
Ebert did not understand and did not care to understand the difference between traditional and electronic games. Single-player electronic games are quite literally theater plays with a specific set of rules devised by the director. You are playing and experiencing at the same time since you are both an actor and the audience. His argument is also retarded since at this point game narrative was a well-established thing, both in classic games and in sports. Shows how intellectual burger critics are.

>>380604675
I don't hold him in high esteem, I just don't hold him in low esteem, either.

You really do sound like someone who popped over to /lit/ for a few weeks, inhaled the memes, then never actually read any literature.

>>380604249
>king and tolkien are still miles better than planescape
Go virtue signal somewhere else. Tolkien is fucking kid's writer, King has some decent stuff, but neither of them top PS:T.
At least mention someone like Strugatsky brothers, Pelevin or Philip Dick if you want to talk about good writing and context.

>>380597276
>Visual novels

99.9% of all VNs are shit though

W O L F E

>>380604789
You think the same is not true of books?

>>380603350
No fucking, way, he sold it in poland money?
How awful did his books sold

>>380596089
A video game can in fact do anything that either films or books can do. Books cannot do what films or games do. Films cannot do what books do.

I play a lot of cutscene heavy games.
I play a lot of text heavy games.

>>380604760
>thinks War and Piece is a piece of propaganda when it was something so novel that when it came out critics and people didn't even know how to cathegorize it.
You're a fucking retard and a massive pseud.
If you think saying "he's awful because" and namedropping two other popular writers is an argument you should kill yourself immediately.

>>380603873
Game mechanics have nothing to do with story. Swinging a sword with no context isnt story. Choosing a dialogue option with no text isnt a story. Playing a game with no images (rolling a dice) isnt a story. Prove me wrong?

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Manga>>>Anime>Literature=>Video Games>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Film>>>>>>>>>>>Television>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Comics

>>380603157
Contemporary film is no worse than older works in the medium. Television is part of the same medium, but it's a different format and that has consequences. Many would argue that television greatly benefits from the longer runtime but to me it's neutral at best and a limitation at worst. Film is primarily a visual medium, a film without pictures is a radio play, not even film anymore. Television has to be produced at a different pace from feature films and as a consequence there's less care put to each scene, shot, frame and so on. You can work around a limited budget but you can't cheat with time. If you break down a television series what you get are short, 30 to 60 minute long films.

>>380604780
PS:T is absolutely garbage fiction that reads and looks like a second-rate Moorcock thrash.

>>380605017
Play a game nigga

>>380596089
Name one (1) game with good story.

>>380600685
>Imagine the things AI in 10 or 20 years will be capable of
Killing humanity in real life.

>>380605020
you have to realize the irony in this post right
comics and magna are literally the exact same medium just with different writers and artists

>>380604687
You may think you're saying something intelligent, but you're saying nothing at all, as you fail to understand the concepts you reference. You like to accuse others of being, as you put it, pseudointellectuals, but here you reveal a damning trait.
>>380604779
If you ever decide to learn about what you discuss you'll see why I show disdain for Tolkien, but you seem content in your idiocy.

>>380605059
Not an argument

>>380604780
>Tolkien is fucking kid's writer
That doesn't detract from his work.

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>>380604121

>>380596089

i would say VG are certainly the way of the XXI century considering the communicative paradigm has shifted to focus on interaction.

Both movies and books provide a fixed story so how great it is depends on the story teller.
VGs are interactive but so far are plagued with useless stuff and full of restrictions.

Once we reach the point where the player decisions have actual consequence on shaping a story it would all depend on how good the player is as a story teller (and how good the devs are at adapting the game capabilities to a story telling they can't know so it still provides surprises and thrills for the player) then games would actually become something else.

Right now however, while games have the interaction going for them they do nothing more than take story telling from other media.

>>380600383

Literature is better because no one who is any good at writing decides to become a video game dev. There is also usually a huge team working on a video game and that ultimately dilutes any real vision.

>>380604760
So basically a polished visual novel? I'm still standing by the point that games are just including other forms of art on top of a set of rules. And the set of rules is what actually matters makes you wanna play.

You are right though that it is a very new thing and the whole partaking and watching at the same time is a relatively new experience for us.

>>380605272
So dwarf fortress is the greatest game to tell stories of all time then?

>>380605142
That only enhances the shitposting fuel imo

>>380597598
No, a book will have the best story because the only author can focus on it solely. A game has more things than story and requires a fuckton of people to develop.
If we are talking about infinte money + no time restrictions games are superior to anything else, but since we live in reality they won't.

>>380605272
What we need is a sandbox game with true AI. Imagine a game like that, you give it the rundown of your setting that you want to play in, design a few characters if you want to, and then you play.

>>380604079
You can't point to any individual bit of a narrative work and say "That's the story right there!". Characters are characters. Plot is plot. Symbolism is symbolism and so on. The story is formed out of putting these pieces together in a cohesive manner to express something.

Tabletop games are the best storytelling medium.

Never really been to /lit/; does it have such a thread where the objective is to use your knowledge of writing and the philosophy behind it in order to create the most convoluted shitpost you possibly can?

>>380605734
I think he means just the basic narrative. Just the sequence of events.

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>>380596089
I honestly believe anyone who's asking this question to be trolling. I honestly refuse to believe that anyone above 18yo is thinking this.

Video games are full of elements of disctraction. Menus, grinding, item tetris, side content, collectibles etc etc. Almost all elements that make a game what it is, have nothing to do with actual story telling.

A medium which puts such a heavy emphasis on distractions will never ever reach sufficient levels of storytelling. Video games are unbeaten when it comes to EXPERIENCING a story, but as far as story telling goes, they are behind traditional media like books which tell their stories without any distractions.

Plus even the games that try to focus on story telling, do so by emulating other media like the aforementioned books or movies(muh cinematic experience.) Video games have yet to figure out their place and best way to tell stories, but ultimately they lack the focus of other media

>>380605734
Who told you that this is how you define story? You're simply wrong, you are making up a definition and acting as though it were a fact.

>>380597276
Comics fall below television. And I'd put poetry down there at the bottom too.

>>380596089
nah, the interactivity will pretty much always work against the author's vision.

However video games are an infinitely far greater medium for experiencing "a story" because of said interactivity.

And we haven't even unlocked like 1% of the true potential of interactive experiences which will probably get really fucking dangerous at some point.

>>380604079
>Assumptions without grounds.
Wrong actually. I've actually never read Tolkien aside from the Hobbit and nothing by Stephen King except for The Shining/Dr Sleep. But I've read the entirety of DFW and Joyce recently, and I'm currently reading Don Quixote.

>>380604313
Overuse and clumsiness of commas. This is actually a fairly amatuer mistake that is disruptive to flow, articulation, and syntax. However, any literature or English professor, even an volunteer at a creative writting class, would pick up on such sloppy comma use.
It's quite telling.

>>380604962
Shut the fuck up, you fucking mongrel. War and Peace is awful for a myriad of reasons and all of them stem from the fact Tolstoi was a crappy novelist and an even worse person. The text itself is almost unreadable in Russian because Tolstoi is, plain and simple, bad with words. He stoops to the lowest of cliches and portrays motherfucking Napoleon as a frothing idiot, because otherwise he wouldn't be able to prove his 'masses make history' point. He literally couldn't prove his point without reducing the guy to a DRUMPF-tier caricature. WOW, SUCH TALENT. Zweig wrote a better Napoleon in his one short novella that barely involved the guy. Tolstoi reduced a bunch of other well-documented historical characters to shitty nobodies, because he wanted to glorify Kutuzov, which in itself is fucking contradictory to the message (masses make history, but they are able to make it not because of a MASS of generals and officials, but because one of those generals is a fucking prodigy, who somehow posesses supernatural knowledge). Don't even start me on the fictional characters, their stories are pure Brazilian tele-novella tier bullshit. WOW, Bolkonskiy is so awful to his wife, woops, she's dead, now he's sad! OMG, so profound! Natasha is a fucking non-character reduced to a breeding machine in the end, because that's Tolstoi's big fetish. Petya and Rostov father are just there to die so that we feel bad for the Russian nation. Pier is especially infuriating, because through him Tolstoi just mocks everyone who opposes him, tumblr-style. Oh, you're a freemason? Too bad, you're such a lazy cunt! Oh, you're Christian? Too bad, you're such a stupid fag, shouldn't have kicked me out of your church. Masses wield the power, son, because I have to live in my manor now and look at those peasants plowing fields all day every day. Tolstoi didn't understand aristocrats, church, peasants, war or Russian spirit. He wrote shitty melodramatic fiction for idiots.

>>380596456
Wait until you have neural implants that can send stories with smell,sight,touch,though,taste and sound directly into your brain

>>380606137
>criticizes others of their writing
>an volunteer
Embarrasing, desu senpai

>>380598214
no

>>380605907
>distractions
They are game elements. In many cases they can detract from the overall experience, but this is because they are bad, not because they distract from the experience. They ARE the experience.

>Video games have yet to figure out their place and best way to tell stories, but ultimately they lack the focus of other media
Why should the goal be to tell a story? Something like R-Type has plenty of focus, and the story is more or less garnish.

>>380606137
So you've been on /lit/ for a few weeks and picked up some cherished memes. Seriously, kid, get off the internet for a while.
So no actual criticism, just a vague complaint. Way to stick to your guns.

>>380606141
Tolstoy bascially has very bad novels (War and Peace, Karenina) and great ones (Kreutzer Sonata, Death of Ivan Ilich). He's still a rather medicore writer when compared to Dostoyevsky imo

But I replying to some obscure /lit/ pasta, am I not?

>>380606159
And from that day forward, there was only porn.

>>380606330
Casualty of phone posting.
Also:
>"criticizes others of their writing"
lol

>>380605508

Pretty much yes in a way. As far as story telling goes but it lacks the audio visual aspects and the immersion.

I would say whoever likes stories on their games most likely want to feel like they are part of it. One identifies with certain characters and whatnot, more a more people is asking for a specific customization options to self insert or, at the very least, be who they want to be on that kind of setting or story.

I think, even though i don't like it's "games" that the closest one on that regard would be what Quantum dream is doing. It's far more limited than Dwarf fortess on story telling but it is closer on the immersion.

Still playability would also be a factor since is not just about being there, in the story, but being able to affect it without breaking the immersion. VR is still not there even though that with the right headset to block the real environment a player can feel... disoriented.

I think different games are discovering different things and that eventually pieces will start to fall into place.

>>380606475
No, I just really hate Tolstoi because I'm Russian, I've read him since I was 6 and I can't for the life of me understand world's infatuation with him.

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I heared the rumor that Saltykowski killed of Geralt in his last witcher book because he was butthurt that non of his other books were succesfull and fans kept asking about new witcher stuff

>>380606531
How else was I supposed to make a shitpost if I didn't reduce your point to nonsense?
Keep up, anon.

>>380606441
My complaint is you write like shit, and it's not at all vague. It's hard to take you seriously when you can't even parse out a couple sentences without sounding retarded.

>>380606772
It is still vague, but you don't have substance so it is purposefully so.

>>380606747
It least make legible shitposts.

>>380606143
>/sci/
What?

>reading books for the story/plot
>playing games for the story/plot
Literally the most retarded

>>380606141
>He stoops to the lowest of cliches and portrays motherfucking Napoleon as a frothing idiot
He only starts portraying Napoleon at a bad light when he historically goes full retard with the Moscow invasion, before that he's seen as a glorious man that is compassionate even towards his defeated foes.
Even then when in the Russian invasion campaign he's more portrayed as a sick man than anything else.

>because he wanted to glorify Kutuzov, which in itself is fucking contradictory to the message (masses make history, but they are able to make it not because of a MASS of generals and officials, but because one of those generals is a fucking prodigy
More bullshit, the only difference between Kutuzov and the other generals is that he's portrayed as one that understands the importance of troop morale and their will, but that's largely irrelevant because his portrayal is both historically and thematically accurate: he was a way better general than the emperor, and his understanding of what makes an army an army drives the Russian to victory at Borodino.

I'm not even going to comment on the rest of your fucking retarded post, calling the drama on War and Peace tele-novella tier bullshit when it's far more focused on than most Dostoevsky novels is dumb as fuck, Brothers Karamazov as great as it is -and better than War and Peace- has more pointless drama and retarded characters.

And all of this is going over the point of War and Peace. You're judging it like is just a piece of historical fiction when it isn't, it's barely a novella, the main themes of it are written and expressed through spoken word, much like an essay, and the story is just supplementary material that is there to drive his conclusions about the philosophy of war and ruling and historiography forward.

>>380603475
Pokemon is much funnier at x3 speed

>>380606879
Make me.

>>380605918
What's wrong with my definition? It's not any different from wikipedia's article, for example.
>Crucial elements of stories and storytelling include plot, characters and narrative point of view.
Hardly contrarian or unique.

>>380606862
It's quite cogent.
Now I'm starting to think you're the one that hasn't read anything.

>>380606502
TOTAL.
GLOBAL.
MASTURBATION.

>>380606921
>is both historically and thematically accurate: he was a way better general than the emperor, and his understanding of what makes an army an army drives the Russian to victory at Borodino.
What I mean with this is that the loss of Austerlitz according to Tolstoi is attributed because the people fought for the wrong reasons, howerver historically the most popular opinion is that it was lost because Alexander was a terrible general, albeit a good politician.
In Borodino they win because, according to Tolstoi, they start fighting for the good reasons, but according to popular historiography, because the emperor was more absent.

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Yes but few games actually capitalize on the story telling methods offered in video games. Dark Souls, Zelda 1, Sonic 3.

Most modern games are over the shoulder cinematic experiences filled with cutscenes and while that works fine for a movie. The literary narrative does not play to the strength of video games. At the end of the day, in film or novel. you are always watching events happen to another person. Where as in video games, you are the person undergoing those events. Having control taken from you or being forced to sit still and have an NPC tell you why you should care is a case of bad story telling in video games

>>380606960
That's not your definition. You said themes are intrinsically tied to the story, or something to that affect.
>>380607004
It is not at all. I see you're trying to force me to move on, nice try. Your critique doesn't stand up, I'm afraid, you'll have to do better next time.

>>380596089
Honestly if done right I'd say it is... You can combine the level of detail and complexity of a book while also having the visual aspect of films, you can theoretically have the strengths of both without their weaknesse

>>380607295
You're literally overusing commas in your reply, and it's a trademark of a novice. You have one too many in the last sentence.
You write like someone who only has a vague understanding of how to use a comma, and has never been educated or critiqued.
And of course my critique doesn't stand up to you; you're completely blinded by bad habits.

>>380603728
>I don't like reading
How to spot a brainlet 101

>>380606915
They hold themselves in higher regard than /sci/
likening them to people who have just left the cave and them selves to those who have grown accustomed to the light.

>>380607226
What do Zelda I or Sonic 3 do right?
Zelda 1 barely has a story at all, and Sonic 3 has in-game cutscenes essentially and a very simple story.

>>380606915
It's the whole humanities vs. STEM thing again

>>380607983
/sci/ is actually pretty shit though. The smartest board on 4chan is /biz/.

>>380607939
I love it when uneducated people are so self assured. You have absolutely no idea how a comma works, or how the English language works. You're either very stupid or American.

>>380608149
Which is surprising considering the board that birthed /biz/.

>>380608235
The Drumpf board?

>>380608226
>English is not my first language.
>No reason given for piss-poor fragmentation.
I think I've got it now. We're done here.

>>380608052
They don't use cutscenes and NPCs to communicate their story to the player. When you see a cave, you don't think "I need to go in there to get the magical ring for some faggot in the village". You go into the cave because you as a player genuinely want to

>>380608523
>They don't use cutscenes and NPCs to communicate their story to the player
But Sonic 3 does do that.

>>380608506
Will you two finally kiss and make up right now?
>I-it's not like I LIKE your syntax or a-anything, you u-uneducated troglodyte!
>>380608226

>>380606159
the future is behind a medium that will send raw information directly to brain with minimal interference, allowing it to create visual and sound stimu.. wait wtf we already have that. Its called books and imagination

>>380608325
/v/ became obsessed with stocks immediately following tortanic, not long after /biz/ is born.

>>380608506
You really don't understand the language at all. This is hilarious. I'll show this to my class tomorrow.

>>380608643
Absolutely not. At no point did Eggman start waxing about his evil plans or Knuckles go on about how mad japes. There were no on screen text boxes telling me to gather the chaos emeralds, I did so because I as player wanted to. The absolute closes you got were two second long scenes with stuff like the world collapsing or some such shit

When you get to the crystal palace, not a single word is share between, you, Eggaman or Knuckles but you are able to clearly go through the fight scene with knuckles then watch him fight Eggman and know clearly what has happened

>>380607295
My post, which you evidently didnt read as you couldn't even quote it, stated that story is inseparable from the themes that compose it. That is not the same as saying that themes are inseparable from stories, which I didn't claim. Your argument which I was responding to was that stories are superficial because they are just vessels for themes, and I disagree. Themes are not very compelling by themselves, they need the power of storytelling. In addition, having a theme isn't enough to make a good story. All stories have themes, it's the storytelling itself that's compelling, when it's done well that is. You should try appreciating the art itself rather than just the select few ideas it can convey that align with your views.

Daily reminder that the mean IQ of /v/ is below 100.

>>380609443
>implying /v/ is that much smarter than /lit/

>>380609096
>stories are superficial because they are just vessels for themes, and I disagree. Themes are not very compelling by themselves
We aren't talking about what is compelling. By saying themes aren't compelling by themselves you aren't at all contradicting what I said.
Care to explain why "compelling" is better?

>>380609443
Daily reminder videogames/film/books are a hobby and should be treated as such

>>380596089
In theory, yes. However, it is exponentially more difficult to make a novel-scope story in a single game.

>>380600765
>>380609963
Glass half empty/half full

>>380609670
>We aren't talking about what is compelling
What ARE we talking about?

>>380609689
By going to other boards and acting smug about what we do to keep our hands busy when not working?

I think Morrowind is the pinnacle of gaming

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>>380609080
>Eggaman or Knuckles but you are able to clearly go through the fight scene with knuckles then watch him fight Eggman and know clearly what has happened
That's an interactive cutscene, sort of like in Half-Life, which, yes, is a huge step above non-interactive cutscenes (at least when they're things happening and not just people talking at you), but they are still cutscenes.
There are also non-interactive cutscenes anyway, like the zone transitions and shit. Did you run up the spiral thing in this image and jump to the Death Egg because you wanted to?

Also, you're telling me that Knuckles fighting Eggman conveys the story, but both of those are NPCs in Sonic's story. Previously, you said:
>They don't use cutscenes and NPCs to communicate their story to the player

>>380610240
I really need to play this one day. From everything I read, it seems like the non-embarrassing version of Oblivion/Skyrim.

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>>380596456
>The book will always be best for the story
Lord no. See the trainwreck that was Game of Thrones made me think books are just a waste of trees.

Go digital or go fuck yourself

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>>380606159
>wait until you can imagine things

>>380610147
Whether or not story is necessary to express themes.

>>380601732
This assumed traditional storytelling is already the apex of storytelling.

>>380610521
And they're still better than the TV show by a landslide.

>>380610649
No shit. The TV show is based on that bloated crapstain. Of course it's also going to be shit.

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>>380610365
it's the best but the gothic kids will get butthurt

>>380600174
then why bother posting

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>what is better pure text or text combined with visuals,music,interactions and all kind of stuff that lets the author mediate what he wants to the audience.
Only old farts would say Books are the best medium for storytelling.

>>380610549
Not as strong as directly feeding the data to the brain, the only thing that come close today to it is lucid dreaming but it can't be used for story telling and needs a lot of work to do.

>>380610576
They are not, and that's not why I joined the debate.

>>380610365
>miss
>miss
>miss
>go to the create a spell menu
>make a soul steal/stat self buff spell
>cast at wall
>stat has permanently increased
>do this for other main stats
>more missing
>still more missing
>relevant skills to what ever class you picked or made are now maxed out
>bland NPCs just like oblivion and skyrim
>worse DoF
>better armor
>best lore
>best setting
>can grab projectiles from the air if you git gud

There I summed it up for you with no spoilers, now you can make an informed decision as to whether or not you want to play it.

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What about Legacy of Kain

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>>380611230
>missposting

19th century is the century of the literature
20th century is the century of the film
21th century is the century of the video games

>>380599905
Self referencing gameplay and that the protagonist is supposedly the author's interpretation of the player. I remember reading an article on it that argues that it's a post modern masterpiece, though I can't recall the link and it might just be drivel anyways.

>>380596089

They could be but games have too large a target audience and the plots are often childish.

I have to dumb myself down to enjoy the stories in most games

>>380611182
Then what are you trying to say?

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A video game story is at its best when it's utilizing the medium to its fullest. That means the game should just focus on being a game. It shouldn't try being a pretentious artsy fartsy movie. it's why, for example, games like Super Metroid will always be better in the storywriting department than disgusting trash like Final Fantasy, ALL OF THEM. No exceptions.

>Super Metroid
>character fighting monsters
>good pacing
>story is entirely dependent on my travels through the game
>I get to dictate what emotions I feel from it
>awesome, well balanced gameplay

>Final Fantasy 6
>DUDE CRYING ANIME KIDS THAT CUT THEMSELVES LMAO
>30 minute cutscenes which are unskippable
>boring trash gameplay designed to be palatable to a 5 year old

>>380596089
No, but they could be

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>>380611617
nah man 19th century litterature is overrated, the best works of litterature were produced between 800 BC and the end of the XVIth century.