>durr 499 us dollar hurr show me a cheaper 4k capable PC faggot

>>379954450
Why is no one talking about how god fucking awful the name is? Worse than the Wii U.

>>379954615
X
BOX
ONE
X

XBOX for short

>>379954450
It wont do 4k, not in a playable state anyway.

You will play a game in 4k once, then after a few minutes of denial you will turn it off because you cant play at 21 fps

>>379954741
Not worth it, like, at all.

>>379954450
It won't do Native 4k 60 fps, just look at the PC hardware equivalent compared to xXboneXx

>>379954741
Brilliant

>>379954741
So now we have the Xbox, Xbox 360, Xbox One and the XBOX.

Bravo

File: Screenshot (3).png (770KB, 1920x1080px) Image search: [Google]

770KB, 1920x1080px

>>379954450
But does it have......... GOOD GAMES?

>>379954741
Xbox is One word

>>379955565
And we have the short hand/conversational names

Xbox
360
Xbone
xXboneXx

>499 Ms console
>Can't run Ms-Paint

File: laugh_0.webm (299KB, 310x464px) Image search: [Google]

299KB, 310x464px

>$500
>+online fees
>+overpriced games
>being less than a equally powered PC

>>379954741
fucking kek

File: 1497220478696.png (56KB, 279x203px) Image search: [Google]

56KB, 279x203px

PS3 2006:
>Show me a six core pc thats less than $599 AND that can play games at 1080p!

XboneX 2017
>show me a cheaper 4k capable PC faggot

>>379954450
>PC's are only for gaming
K

File: scalebound_1517023.png (926KB, 650x842px) Image search: [Google]

926KB, 650x842px

I can't wait to play Scalebound in 4K

>>379955638
Don't think that really matters because even on PS4 none of the exclusive made it into the top 10 most bought games last year

My PC is 4k capable and it's a piece of shit I built nearly half a decade ago. Faggots like you who think the XOX is going to match a PC running games at 4k/60 at high settings are fucking retarded.

This console gen is so shit that after the bonex announcement fanboys try to shit on PC instead on their competition.
Really teraflops my hardwarespecs.

>>379955867
DELETE THIS

>>379955907
The Top 10 most bought games last year were almost all multiplayer games meaning there's even less reason to buy a more expensive console when it's the least popular.

>>379955773

Desktops are, yes.
It's 2017 normans have smartphones and tablets now.

4K is a meme especially on a console where you're gonna get 4K 30fps.

File: 1476316399109.jpg (23KB, 330x561px) Image search: [Google]

23KB, 330x561px

Does it have the always online shit?

4K on console*

*Games shown running on what is comparable to low settings on PC
And by games we mean pre-rendered "ingame" footage
Or indie pixel shit

https://pcpartpicker.com/list/ZVxYKZ

File: 49584785B.png (65KB, 200x248px) Image search: [Google]

65KB, 200x248px

>>379954450

>Built a $1000 build
>Can do 4k/60 in all games at different settings since 2013
>Can do work it
>Recouped the build cost within a month by actual work with it while playing games on weekends
>Can retain 60-70% of the value after 2 years, can easily be resold for around $600-700 depending on the build
>spend only $200 just to update build.

Xbone X

>$499
>0 Exclusives
>Can't do 4k@60 at all games
>Has to pay extra for $60 for XBL and hard $60 for games
>Shit Resell value, Gamestop will just laugh at you if you try sell it at 70% of launch value after 2 years to them

I don't think you're very smart, Anon.

File: PS4 Pro.png (738KB, 1000x1007px) Image search: [Google]

738KB, 1000x1007px

>>379954450
I bet Sony will make the PS4 Pro $100 cheaper tomorrow just for the sake to piss off Microsoft.

>>379954741
And the next console will be

X
BOX
ONE
X
ONE

XBOX ONE for short

>>379958161
You're trying too hard. So you regret your PC purchase, get over it. Stop trying to justify projecting your low self-esteem on to a bunch of random anons. If you feel insecure about buying your PC then get something else. And then get some help. Good luck.

>>379958169
>sonygga detected

they have no reason to and they won't until ps5

>>379959361
Joke on you, I just predict Sony being arrogant, again.

>>379954450
>minecraft at 4k

>LOLZZ IT CAN HAZ FOR KAY GUISEEEE

>>379958169
Y'know, I would love to see that just so I can laugh at M$'s pain.
Too many Xbox shills here at the moment.

>>379954615
X gonna give it to ya!

File: 16757567767.gif (162KB, 500x379px) Image search: [Google]

162KB, 500x379px

>>379955748
It never ends

>>379954450

>Need an 800$ GPU to play at 4k acceptably.
>Hurr durr this whole this is 500 and magically the same!

Sit as close to the TV as you do to a monitor and see how fucking shitty it looks.

It ain't actual 4k
You can't pirate games
Online is behind a paywall
No exclusives

When will the console meme die?

File: huh.png (87KB, 300x297px) Image search: [Google]

87KB, 300x297px

>>379958747

Xbox One X is a PC that you still have to pay $50 to play games online. Lol.

>>379960064
>>Need an 800$ GPU to play at 4k acceptably.
Kek
A $200 GPU does 4k as well as a XBX m8.

>>379954741
3 THREE fucking Xs on a console name for fucks sake

Show me an xbone that costs less than 499 and has games

>>379955290
With a console developers know the exact hardware the game is running on, so they can optimize the game to a significant extent to get far more power out of the hardware than you can on PC were only general optimization is possible with the infinite number of hardware configurations.

>>379958747
>dude explains why the xbox scorpio is useless
>This somehow means he regret's his PC

That's some seriously massive mental gymnastics right there.

>>379961207
Its 2017, its not the 90s anymore. 99% of games are multiplatform now (outside of nintendo). The 1% of console exclusives are irrelevant. Its about which console is best not what games they have, they all have the same games for the most part.

>>379961440
>The 1% of console exclusives are irrelevant
get a load of this guy

>>379954450
PC can do 4k for less. the problem is you can't get a PC to do 4k60 for that much, and that thing can't do it either. Best you'll get at that framerate is racing game, fighting games, and 2d indie garbage. Stuff that has a very limited amount of polygons and shit going on at any given time.

File: Untitled.jpg (272KB, 797x660px) Image search: [Google]

272KB, 797x660px

>>379960712
>>379961264
Sometimes I seriously worry about the mental health of individuals that use this board. Are you guys ok?

>>379958747
I have a 1k pc from 2015 that cant do 4k/60. Consoles are much more cost effective than gaming PCs, that's why they exist. A 4k/60 capable card from 2013 would cost about as much as a OneX, and thats not getting into the rest of the parts which would cost more than that in total.

>>379958747
>So you regret your PC purchase,
>He said specifically he built it.

The only one trying hard here is xX_BoX_1_Xx

>>379961606
>Spending 400 just to play uncharted.

>>379954450
>Xbox X
>XX
It's double garbage

>>379954450
Show me a $499 4k capable XxXboneXxX first.

>>379961832
Deep down that anon knows he spent way too much time and money on a sub-par gaming experience, so now he's trying to soothe his ego by ragging on anons that didn't fall for the same trap. But he's just projecting his insecurity outward and making it really obvious that he's hurting. I feel bad for him.

>>379961859
Will you be alright?
>>379961779

File: 3079321-horizonzerodawn_e32016_aloy_vista_1465873612.jpg (76KB, 1280x720px) Image search: [Google]

76KB, 1280x720px

>>379954450

Literally dreamcast all over again.

Dreamcast was ZOMG amazing specs
And It got obliterated by the Playstation and N64 because nobody could be arsed to make games that took advantage of it when they could sell it on existing platforms.

And when PS2 came out a year later it died. Died horribly.

No way this 500 dollar door stop beats PS4 which costs 200 dollars less and will play the exact same games barring Halo. And nobody have given a shit about halo in 10 years. Master Chief is literally Sonic at this point.

>>379962523
Well, I'm not an xbonner so I don't need to have a meltdown. Keep your chin up, you can still watch TV on it.

>>379962645
But the Xbox One S literally plays the exact same games as the X and is over $100 cheaper than PS4
If power doesn't matter in the face of price, then S is better than PS4
If price doesn't matter in the face of power, then X is better than PS4

>>379961440
Like half of the best games of 2017 are exclusive to a single platform (Persona 5, Yakuza 0, Breath of the Wild).

no bloodborne lol

>>379954450
I can show you a more expensive build that will hold a steady 30 fps and have higher quality graphics. instead of staggering frame rates, and "eh" graphics. 4k can look like trash with low graphics settings, which will essentially be the X....BOX ONE.....X.

>>379963234
Persona 5 isn't exclusive to a single platform.

>>379963154

You can do all the calculus you want. But 4 > S÷X.

This is a mathematical truth
At this point PS4 has been out long enough to have built up a library of exclusives and set thr development standard around its specs.

Microsoft should focused on the XBone rather then running with this hairbrained idea. Scalebound anyone?

>>379962645
In the N64 generation almost all games were console exclusive, so it was very important to have good games. In 2017 99% of games are multiplatform and maybe only 1% are console exclusive (outisde of nintendo). It was also significantly harder to make a game utilize higher end specs back then, today its not difficult.

In fact I would expect the opposite issue to be true. Developers want to develop on a powerful machine that can get the most out of their game. I would expect a drop off of inclusion on PS4 for not being up to par, like what we have seen with Nintendo consoles for a long time now.

>>379954450
You can make plenty of pc's of similar spec upscale to 4k too. Only 2 titles they showed were native 4k. All other were "True 4k"

XxBOXxX

>>379963234
>Yakuza 0
8/10 Weeaboo game, dont care.

I said outside of Nintendo in regards to BoTW. If you want to make an argument for Nintendo based on this then OK, but by the same token most multiplatform games dont run on Nintendo so it evens out and youll need another platform to play those. The argument cant be made for PS4, which mostly has the same games as Xbox.

Consoles always have the upper hand no value/price on release. They are quickly taken over by PC though, which will definitely be the case in a year or 2 after 1070/80 and RX's drop in price.

>>379963585
Yeah but it's exclusive to Sony in the Sony vs Microsoft debate, which is what matters. You know what I meant.

>>379963904
No one cares what you like or not, it's still one of the top releases of this year.

What I'm saying is that this idea of "exclusives don't matter" is retarded.

Though I will add: PC is pretty much a separate marker, so a game that is exclusive to Xbox and Windows should be counted as an Xbox exclusive.

>>379962645
But the PS4 Pro is the Dreamcast in this scenario. The "ZOMG AMAZING SPECS" console getting BTFO a couple of months later by an actual powerhouse.

I have no idea, why anyone would buy a xbone x, all the games are also going to be on windows 10, i brought a xbone at launch (a regret) before switching to pc, and i have touched it in years, xbone x seem like a complete waste for i would say 60 percent or more of the gaming audience its targeting, most people who have 4k tvs have a pc that can handle 4k now.

>>379963664

Developers want to sell their games. Not make ego projects. You think EA gives a shit what their games look like? Fuck no. If it sells its good.

Nintendo is an exception because they have an enormous library of exclusive titles. Microsoft does not have this. They have halo. And that is pretty much it. Little effort was made to develop microsoft game studios and supporting secondary developers to make killer apps like Horizon Zero Dawn. They have nothing to fall back on.

What is Microsofts console seller? Nintendo has Zelda breath of the wild. PS4 had Bloodborne, Horizon and Final Fantasy
What is Microsoft offering as its gateway drug to their console?

A console that is hundreds of dollars more expensive then its competition?

>>379964301
4K without having to install Win10 or buy an expensive graphics card.

Why would something capable of so much more with cheaper games and cheaper upgrades not be more of an investment?

Stick with your immediate self gratifying ways console pleb

File: 1393469205472.gif (134KB, 340x340px) Image search: [Google]

134KB, 340x340px

>>379954741

are we talking 4k ultra 60fps? impossible Bioware's Tantrum or whatever the fuck was running at like 20-30fps

I don't think a 600 dollar 4k machine would be impossible if games are ran at medium 30-40frames. Nudoom runs at about that on a 1070

>>379964462
Enjoy all the multiplats running at <30fps

File: 1324262612344.gif (1MB, 200x195px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 200x195px

>>379964301
>most people who have 4k tvs have a pc that can handle 4k now.

>RX 580 (which the xbonex is based on) is 200$
>similar low clock CPU 50$
>8gbs RAM 50$
>everything else 100$

You can build an xbonex equivalent PC for 400$.

>>379964489
When people say you can be anything, generally they don't mean you should be projector. Considering how much you're forcing this shit, your feelings are kind of obvious.

>>379964685
Enjoy your $800 component.

>>379963664
Except that the most powerful console has never sold the best

>>379964301
Because, contrary to what /v/ thinks, most people don't care enough to get a gaming PC. The X will outperform any similarly priced PC. The second you realize that the audiences for Windows 10 and Xbox One don't compete is when you realize why people would want it, and why Microsoft keeps advertising those 22 "exclusives."
Also
>most people who have 4k tvs have a pc that can handle 4k now
This is completely retarded.

>>379964338
Its simple, the games on Xbox and PS are mostly the same, there are as you mentioned some Jap games that Americans dont care about and so there is no effort made to bring them to Xbox, but outside of that its mostly the same.

The xbox is more powerful than the PS4 with better graphics, but its 100 dollars more expensive. Its a matter of preferecne, are you willing to spend 100 dollars more for a more high end machine? If so buy Xbox, I am well off and that is what I am going to do. If you are poor and cant afford the extra 100 then buy a PS4, PS has always been the "every man" console, Xbox is high end luxury. Its like Toyota vs Mercedes. You get it.

>>379964489
>The fucking sentence on her underwear.
Brilliant. This meme just gets better. It's like the "The Game" all over again.

>>379964849
I am, I've enjoyed vidya more than I have in my entire life by far since building a gaming computer

>>379964489
I hate this meme

>>379954450
>original xbox 1 comes out
>durr $499 cheaper than peecee
>xbox 1 x comes out
>durr $499 cheaper than peecee

>unless you are just now entering the current generation of video games, (why the fuck would you be on /v/?) you already own another console or pc
>and the most likely scenario of someone buying this would be upgrading from xbox 1, meaning the actual cost of this generation of one console is $1000, more expensive than a pc, and 1/3 at most of the lasting power in terms of needing to upgrade

File: 1497149920471.png (8KB, 650x650px) Image search: [Google]

8KB, 650x650px

>500
>all games are compatible with original xbone
>4k will be garbage upscaled 30fps low settings
>doesnt come with elite controller
>console looks exactly like xbox one s
>4k is a meme anyways
Who is this for?
If you want xbox games get a xbox one s for half the price
If you want exclusives get a ps4
If you want 4k upscaling get a ps4 pro
If you want microsoft games get a cheap gaming pc

>>379961963
>PS4 is $400 not $250
learn to math

>>379954450
>Buy a 1000$ PC
>Play whatever you want, you can get almost every games for free

>Buy a 500$ console
>Buy 10 game
>You're already at more than 1000$ spent

Playing on PC is cheaper

File: 1369252991875.jpg (25KB, 694x563px) Image search: [Google]

25KB, 694x563px

>>379965095
>Xbox is high end luxury

The Xbox one X is retarded and so is anyone actually defending it. It's a 500 dollar piece of shit that's only pro is 4k resolution. Most people don't have 4k TVs. Why the fuck would anyone spend more money to play the same games as everyone else on a resolution that their TV likely doesn't support? This console is going to flop ridiculously hard.

>>379965095
>$100 is the difference between the rich and the poor

More like $800 plus being able to delay self gratification enough to research and build it instead of needing games NOW despite (multiplats at least) running like shit

>>379965469
>pirate cucks

>>379958747

You really should have read his whole post before jumping to argue with his comments. Is this what they call triggered?

>>379961209
and when has this ever equated to >30fps?

>>379965469
Dayum, I thought I was guna have to pay $60 to play assassins creed on the Xbox but looks like I can get it for free on PC.

>>379965648
Since when normie audiences - who are the target for the Xbox One X, and not the PC gaming master race crowd - cares about 60 FPS?

>>379955982
It has the gpu equivalent of a 1060-1070. That gpu alone costs $400.

>>379961209
>optimize
It's not a magical word, it can't change the laws of physics.

>>379965540
Dude they're aiming for 60fps

I'm not here to defend the console but it's definitely better than a ps4pro

You just sound like a salty Sony shill

File: 1457128351150.jpg (38KB, 510x498px) Image search: [Google]

38KB, 510x498px

In all seriousness, I am trying to build a PC that can do 4k60. I haven't been able to find one that has less than 2 SLI gtx1080tis, unless it can be done with just one?

>>379965820
What? I didn't compare it to the ps4 pro you fucking idiot. Your post doesn't address a single thing I said.

>>379965764
1060 is $240, 1070 is $350.
But there's no way it has a 1060 equivalent in there, much less a 1070, don't be retarded.

>>379965648
The hardware in previous console generations has really been garbage. They put garbage hardware to make them competitive in pricing and put it on the developers to heavily optimize for the console. They also make developers do this by enforcing strict performance requirements they must meet before being allowed to release. The XboxX Hardware is actually comparable to high end modern graphics cards, Ive heard like the 1060/1070. This is quite remarkable.

>>379965837
If you want native 4k, yeah, for modern games you'd need only a 1080ti, and there may be a few games that won't be able to hold 60fps.

If you mean console 4k, just buy a 1060/1070 and upscale from 1440p.

>>379965837
You could also play with console settings, there even a 1060 can hold 4k 60fps in a lot of games.

>>379965761
>1070
No
More like 1060/480 wich are around 200 bucks

>>379965764
Performance optimization is a real thing, it can be done on the software side and you can do a much better job of it when you know what hardware you are working with. For example it helps in parallel processing, you now the number of cores you have and their capabilities.

File: 1492907229018.jpg (4KB, 160x200px) Image search: [Google]

4KB, 160x200px

>Console
>4K
Sure Anon Sure

x_bone_x

>>379966207

Is just one ok? I was going to get this

https://www.asus.com/us/ROG-Republic-Of-Gamers/ROG-STRIX-GTX1080TI-O11G-GAMING/

and just swap out my 980 ti

>>379966620
It's still not magic, you can optimize until you hit the gpu's limits, then there's nothing you can do but lower settings.
>inb4 lower settings is optimization

>>379965761
>1070

Not even fucking close

>>379954450
Is it hacked yet? It would be worth it if it's hacked.

File: 1484682291338.jpg (102KB, 1200x629px) Image search: [Google]

102KB, 1200x629px

>>379954450
xBoXoNeX

>>379955191
but forza motorsport 7 is already confirmed 4k 60fps

File: D3E0A8BD-1674-434E-9A43-BFD27EF49D86-2558-00000340E6273B48.jpg (4KB, 232x128px) Image search: [Google]

4KB, 232x128px

>>379954450
Lol you can build an one x with a 8gb 480/570 rx slightly OC'd to get to 6tflops, throw in 8gb of cheap $40 ddr4, that cheap ass kaby lake pentium with hyperthreading (would still run circles around the Xbox one CPU), cheap case, hard drive, 300w psu, and some $40 motherboard and you have a pc that will run games at the same fidelity as that xbonex, but probably faster because the cpu is much more efficient (even with only two cores, four threads) Being anpc, itll do much more too, all for around 500

>>379954450
>XboXoneX666 has joined the game
i'm out

>>379966620
I guess that's why xbox 360 versions of multiplatform games look and run exactly the same as the xbone version, they just optimized the fuck out of the games until they ran the same in weaker hardware.

But if that's the case, then what's the point of making new consoles? Just keep optimizing games for the old hardware everyone already has.

>>379965757
>Literally all everyone is talking about on twitter, facebook, redit, and all the other normie sites is 60fps.
>Since w-when do normies c-care

Since this in-generation upgrade garbage started a year ago motherfucker. Don't participate in topical discussions if you're not up on topical subjects you fucking moron.

>>379967086
>there are people who actually believe the 6tflops spec

>>379966795
Just because a GPU is running at 100% utilization does not mean you are using that GPU efficiently. Saying "its not magic" is not a technical argument. You can program your game to use a GPU as efficiently as possible if you know what you are working with, you cannot write a program that runs at 100% efficiency on a bunch of completely different GPUs as you have on PC, that is impossible. Not to mention the problem of trying to test performance optimization on PC, you obviously cannot test on every configuration out there, only a small handful. With a console you can test on every configuration out there, becuase there is only one.

>>379967347
I'm glad I managed to trigger you so much that you keep coming back to shitpost me with same image that keeps getting deleted over and over.
But you should seek help.

> Be dev
> Want to make game for XBone One X
> Microsoft: NO! Your game must support weaker peasant tier XBone One S
> Alright, I'll just make my game inferior to work on both.

No wonder they got 4K/60FPS running the games are going to neutered.

>>379967352
The fuck you're on about.

Normies care more about graphics than performance. 4K has always been more pushed than, say, 144Hz.

And we are seeing this now. Normies would rather have 4K 30 FPS than 1080p 60 FPS, which is why both the PS4 Pro and Xbox One X are being marketed as 4K machines.

>>379967134
You can optimize to get the most out of a piece of hardware. It gets to a point where getting the most out of it still is not enough and you need to upgrade your hardware.

>>379955720
nigga, new games cost $60 for years.
I fucking bought Mario 64 for $60

>>379967812
>Be dev
>want to make game for PC
>NO! Your game must support weaker peasant tier toasters
>Alright, I'll just make my game inferior to work on both

>>379955982
This, it'll be 4K/30 for most games and 60FPS games will look like dog shit, just rendered in at a massive resolution that will show off just how shit they look.

>>379967608
And the gpu is a piece of shit, no amout of "optimization" can make it run better than the hardware can handle. The fillrate alone makes high resolution gaming in older gpus impossible, how do you optimize that?

How do you make a modern game run on an older console that didn't have the same level of shaders?
How do you make a modern game run on a gpu that can't handle more than 60 million polygons per second?

>>379967927
>The fuck you're on about.
Stopped reading, get your shit together.

>>379968598
Measure how much marketing importance has been put on the new consoles hitting 4K instead of hitting 1080 60 FPS and you'll see why you're fucking wrong.

File: FE9E5739-DE4B-48B3-B989-5A43D713DF23-1406-000002AF90C7D6BE.gif (80KB, 592x415px) Image search: [Google]

80KB, 592x415px

>>379967457
Its not unbelievable. Theyre using amd hatdware, which has always had higher theoretical floating operation points that nvidia, but much lower graphics performance overall. Itll probably perform like a 470/480 at 4k, which is to say youre gonna see a lot of low/med settings on games which isnt different from current consoles. You wont be seeing 1060 performance or higher like some of the dumbasses in this thread are saying

>>379954615
But it's a new console or... what? If this is a new console then they're pulling a Wii U move... and that is totally idiotic IMO.

>>379968367
I am not saying that any GPU can run any game with enough optimization. I am saying with the kind of optimization you typically see with console games you can get better performance on a game with worse console hardware than what you would get on PC with a similar or better (to a certain degree) graphics card. Graphics card A that is highly optimized t 95% can outperform a better graphics card B optimized at 70%. There does come a point where the PC graphics card is so much more powerful than the console one that it will perform better even with poor optimization.

Esentially Console makes tend to be cheap with hardware and pass on the cost of that to developers who have to spend more money to optimize the game to get it to run acceptably. With PCs developers often dont spend a lot of money optimizing a game and even if they did they would be limited in what they could do. So Developers basically pass on the cost of performance to customer, who has to overcome this poor optimization by spending money on very powerful graphics cards that will run a game well despite poor optimization.

>>379960606
It will keep living as long as plebs keep buying.

>>379956120
Not if you want to show off madden on your 65" 4k TV that you bought on special to all your bros

>>379969750
Thats somewhat true, but theyre using amd. Those polaris gcn cores theyve been using are the same ones the xbone has, so it should perform pretty identical short of unforeseen driver issues or cpu overhead. Before this generation, your arguement would have more substance since the gpus were heavily customized and not mostly off the shelf like this generation.

>>379965761

>it has a GPU equivalent to these 2 completely different performing GPUs

>>379954450
will this do anything for the XBone version of the Witcher 3? Will it now be 4K 60fps?

>>379972085
no, developers have to make a patch

File: ztq5ft3l4ibx.jpg (83KB, 881x758px) Image search: [Google]

83KB, 881x758px

>>379962379
Why would I feel bad? I'm not the one who is wasting money on consoles and paying XBL fees. I did mentioned that I recouped the money I spent on my last PC by doing my job on it and built a better one, which you can't do on consoles.

>>379972413
thank you for clarifying.

>>379972085
lmao

>Bought xbone just for Raiden 5 and Halo 5
>Raiden 5 is getting enhanced edition for PS4/PC

I think I'm gonna sell it. Halo 5 is definitely one of the best multiplayer experiences I've ever had, but I want play some jrpgs and exclusives that aren't fps/tps

>>379972085
Who cares?

>>379954450
>4k capable
Care to elaborate?