Was removing shields a good addition or a bad addition?

>>378995656

This game is a faceroll fest for the most part so I think removing shields was bad.

But Miyazaki hates people who take slow tactical options over facerolling so fuck.

>>378995656
It was good because the game wasn't made for shields. Shields are good in souls games because they were made for them in mind. Is any of this going to go to your thick skull or not?

>>378995981

In a world where dark souls 2 doesn't exist sure.

But sadly Dark Souls 2 decided that shields should be completely useless.

>>378995981
>Is any of this going to go to your thick skull or not?

simmer down a little young buck.

>>378995656
It was alright until enemies started doing levels of damage that made gray health pointless.

>>378995656
Considering how this game generally has more enemies around to attack you, some even moving around, and how they hit harder and much faster than in other Souls games using a shield would be a good way to find yourself backed into a corner.
So yes it was a good idea to remove them. Enemies are much more mobile in this game so why would you want to stand in one place blocking when you could be making use of your weapons combos to deal with groups more efficiently?

>>378995656
I didn't mind it because it helped emphasize offense like the combat was designed to do.

>>378995656
>no shield
>parrying is easier
let's say it's still an equivalent exchange

>>378996152
>shields are completely useless
got guardbroke a few too many times kiddo? stop holding that L1 for your life

>>378995656
Bad, now instead of being able to distribute your stats more evenly you basically have to pump Vitality. Also the game sacrifices variety but doesn't make up for it at all, sure there's some new weapons in the DLC but by the time you get there you probably already have a weapon maxed out, they only exist for flavor.

Also 99% of enemies are designed the same way, autistic spazzes that focus all their attacks in the front, so your best strategy is to just dash behind them and go to town. With DeS/DaS you could approach them head on if you wanted, in BB that's suboptimal at best and a death sentence at worst.

>>378995656
It was a great decision.
>no shields
>parrying is easier
>dodge is faster

The game is a lot faster than Dark Souls and better for it.
I don't really like the way they've tried to use BB mechanics in DaS 3, while keeping the Souls tropes like Estus - it makes the game at odds with itself.

>removing
>addition

>>378997018
came here to post this

>>378996152
Have you ever fought Sir Alonne?

Oh wait, you're holding L1 while the dark spirit guard breaks you and ripostes you. Fucking hell. Shields in DaS2 were fine.

It's the easiest soulsborne by far so i'd say bad. More options is better, this is from a pve standpoint anyways

>>378997343
>easier is bad
You have more options - like the gun.

>>378995797
>le slow = tactical maymay

There's nothing even remotely tactical about Dark Souls or using a shield. Literally hold L1 and release after blocking the blow.

>>378996967
>now instead of being able to distribute your stats more evenly you basically have to pump Vitality
The fuck are you talking about? Nothing's forcing you to pump in vitality, especially when there are four other more useful stats to level.

>Also the game sacrifices variety but doesn't make up for it at all
It more than makes up for it by making each weapon unique, all of them viable for both PvE and PvP and lot of them having two movesets that can combo into each other by switching. Or would you rather the game to have countless clones of more simple weapons like in Souls?

How does Bloodborne manage to have a worse character creator than DeS and DaS?

>>378997792
By not playing the game.

>>378995656

If you used shields in any other Fromsoft game, well I just don't know what to tell you

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shields only slowed you down in the other souls games.

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Every single Souls game is made infinitely better when you realize that hiding behind shields slows the pace down to a crawl and draws out fights longer than they need to be.
When I first learned to drop the shield and just two-hand through the game it was like I just reached fucking enlightenment and I never went back. The only time I ever use them now is for aesthetic purposes and parries. I can't remember the last time I pressed L1 while a shield was in my offhand.
Before developing Bloodborne they realized this and dropped them from the formula, which was entirely for the best.

I like shields but having them in Bloodborne wouldn't make sense for the setting so I'm glad they're not prominent.

>>378997792
>BB uses it's own special shaders in-game
>leave these shaders out of the character creator so you have absolutely no idea what your character will look like in-game compared to the character creator

what did they mean by this.

>>378998170
To be fair, every Souls game does this.

>>378998241
I never really had that problem with any of the Souls games.

>>378997662
>Nothing's forcing you to pump in vitality

I would have agreed with you until Unseen Village's fodder enemies started taking half of my HP per hit and could stunlock me to death. To say nothing of the hunter trio that is on a whole different level. Eventually I decided to just replay the game and focus most of my levels on Vitality instead. Had a MUCH easier time, ridiculously so, night and day difference. And I would argue the game is built around having high amounts of Vitality considering how the rally mechanic works and how enemies are designed.

>inb4 git gud

I beat the whole game and the DLC and a good chunk of the chalice dungeons. There's nothing to git gud at, the gameplay isn't deep enough to require any kind of serious mechanical skill (to be fair this applies to the other games as well), and the framerate is atrocious. No point trying to abuse the dash's iframes when getting more HP is much more effective.

>>378998313
Nah, Dark Souls 2 and 3 both did it as well.
Not sure about DaS and DeS but i'm pretty sure they did too.

>>378997519
Literally more tactical than pressing R1 100x to beat a boss since there was fucking zero challenge in this game. It was honestly laughable how easy it was.

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>>378998040
lol nerd

>>378997792
I really hate that Bloodborne doesn't have classes, sure the backgrounds are similar (basically just starting stats) but they're thematically less interesting and they don't have their own starter weapons.

>>378995656
It removed the third pillar of combat which I think was a bad move.

In Dark Souls
Parry - High risk, high reward
Roll - Medium risk, medium reward
Shield - Low risk, low reward

>>378995656
I prefer the combat in BB so I'd say it worked out.

>>378998320
>beat the game without blatantly pumping vit
>some random idiot claims you have to pump vit to play the game

really makes me think........

Shields work just fine in Bloodborne.

The wooden shield is great for blocking bullets

The loch shield is great for blocking spells like call beyond and executioner skulls

It makes it impossible for those tools to pressure you.

>>378998040
>slows the pace down to a crawl and draws out fights longer than they need to be

how is it slower to parry an enemy and kill them in 1 hit?

>>378998918
I mean using them to actually block.
You know how the newbies do it, block forever until they're absolutely certain they can poke an enemy before going back to blocking again.

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>removing gameplay options
>reducing build variety
>ever a good idea

>>378996152
Shields are great in Dark Souls 2.
In fact, the Greatshield might actually be too strong.

Good move.

Guns are more forgiving to parry as well as easier to do than shields ever were. It actually made the game easier by removing them and giving you guns with unlimited bullets.

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>>378995656
>removing something is an addition

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>Using shields in souls games for any purpose besides passive buffs or aesthetics

>>378999065
Oh I see what you mean now.

Well that was definitely a big problem in DS1 but it's less of a problem in 2 and 3.

Even with a very high stability shield, it will still take less stamina to roll than it takes to block a hit.

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>>378996152
What the fuck are you talking about shield worked perfectly fine in DS2

>>378999104
I never understood this build variety shit people spout about the souls games. It's not some deep rpg, you pick a weapon then max a couple stats, calling it a build is a bit generous.

You're either strength dex or a caster. In BB you're strength skill or a arcane.

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Are gun only runs feasable in BB?

t. Plays DS with 3 Avelyns

>>378999353
No.

>>378999353
I dunno if only, but you can get really respectable damage on bosses with a blood build.

>>378998515
The problem is the base mechanics of Dark Souls are so bad that none of that matter. Every fight degenerates into you literally standing in fire because of how broken poise is, and smashing r1 because the game is full of infinites.

>>378999236
Yeah but people still do it regardless. Like the Wooden Shield's description "Shields are nice, but not if they engender passivity"
People still turtle like hell behind their Shield of Want in DaS3 even though every time I just kick them down and riposte them, and they never learn. I appreciate BB in that it's a crash course on not being a shitter if you haven't learned already.

>>378999353
:)

>>378999353
Gun ONLY? As in from the first minute? No way.
But maybe for NG+ with the right tools it might be possible.

>>378998762
How many times did you die though? Be honest.

>he can't stand that someone is criticizing his sacred game so he has to shitpost

In DeS and DaS you had a lot of defensive options, BB removed a major option (shields) so it goes without saying that the remaining options had to pick up the slack. Pretty much every BB thread has agreed that Endurance is useless beyond a small threshold, and a maxed out weapon will give you better returns than stat increases and does enough damage to last you the whole game. You only really need Strength/Dexterity/Bloodtinge/Arcane to satisfy stat requirements, and that's only if you really want to use a meme weapon. Vitality is by far the most valuable stat in Bloodborne.

>>378999353
>>378999441
Simons Bow with 50 BLT absolutely shreds.

It's actually the easiest way to kill bosses in cursed chalice dungeons. It makes amygdala a joke.

>>378999469
The thing is that BB still has most of DeS/DaS's mechanics in place, it just made a few tweaks, not enough tweaks to be perfectly honest.

>>378999353
Don't listen to this idiot >>378999416, it's possible. However it requires immense planning, and you will need to probably want to allow yourself to visceral.

>>378999705
No infinites and no poise are pretty big tweaks to how you actually play the game. Like enough to completely change the game.

>>378998320
>I would have agreed until Unseen Village
Yahar'Gul is just a profoundly shitty area. The area is significantly harder than what one finds before and after that point.

So to the people who feel that shields needed to be in BB, lemme ask, how else would the game define itself? BB is the fast, aggressive Souls game but if they added shields so you could hide behind them all day then the game would ultimately just be the same and lose some of its identity. Should we add INT and FAI along with Blood Arrow/ Great Blood Arrow so you can have muh build variety back?
Do you just want Dark Souls 4 and not Bloodborne?

if you played dark souls without a shield it made it too fucking easy
>health from counterattacking
>parrying is the easiest shit
like i get they wanted people to be agressive but it ruined the difficulty

>>378999236

It's way less of a problem in 2 and 3 because shield breaks allow for ripostes, now. So turtling has to be managed or it will fuck you hard.

>>378999340
It mixes it up and Bloodborne bloodtinge and arcane are more side things if anything
>>378999353
It obliterates most humanoid enemies

>>378997662

>combo

There's no such thing as combo in Souls/Bloodborne, no matter how far you try to stretch the definition. A combo occurs when you cancel the attack animation and immediately switch to another move, creating a chain of hits.

>>379000239
I don't think arcane is a side thing, you can make almost any weapon in the game scale off of arcane.

>>378999353

There was that one guy who only used the blunderbuss, but he did visceral.

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>using shields ever

>>378997519
>slow tactical maymay
It's about as valid as the fast=good maymay that BBfags regurgitate constantly
>he thinks switching between weapons makes it complex
>>378999469
>mashing r1
Sounds like Bloodborne, except it's encouraged in BB

>>378995656
i don't get /v/
everyone bashed on dmc2 yet this is called by some the best souls game.
dmc2 = bloodborne

>>379000247
>A combo occurs when you cancel the attack animation

Maybe in your head. Combos originated in fighting games, and cancelling attack animations has never been a requirement for something to be a combo. You just have to hit a guy with one thing and then another before he has any chance to do anything.

Very good. Going back to shields in DaS3 was jarring and the gameplay felt trash in comparison.

>>379000346
That's sound pretty boring desu. Technically you're right but it's not really changing how you play you've just made it scale with a different stat

>>379000247
That's not true at all. A street fighter combo involves more links than cancels usually and a link doesn't involve any animation canceling.

Good, but it didnt go far enough, BB should have been faster

>>379000847
That's almost every build in the souls series though. What's the difference between a strength character or a dex character? They both just melee shit to death.

>Shields are more tactical!

>hold L1
>press R1
>hold L1 again

At least when dodging you have to time your button presses properly and aim your dodge in the right direction, especially in BB and DaS3 since the bosses have lots of combos that punish panic mashing the button.

>>379000936
>what's the difference between guns in a shooter game? You just point and shoot shit to death
hmm.......

>>378999564
>how many times did you die though
Hell if I know, a lot though on my first playthrough.

>maxed out weapons give you better damage than stat increases
Bullshit, you can ignore stats and beat the game certainly but how in the world do you come to the conclusion that a maxed out weapon with weak stats is better than a maxed out weapon with high stats? You can abuse beast pellets and shit, sure but you have to be good at the game if you're going to make it far enough to utilize a maxed out weapon while keeping your combat stats low.

>you really only need every other stay in the game if you want to use a meme weapon

Ah yes, the meme weapons I completely forgot that the best weapons are actually just meme weapons. What kind of statement is that to make? "You don't need these stats but if you want to play the game like this then you need them" yes this makes perfect sense.

I'm not going to sit here and pretend the game is as mechanically deep, challenging and overall as good as something like NGB (which I'm sure you haven't played) but it certainly isn't as simple as you make it out to be.

Also, you were projecting heavily in your post. I never said it was sacred, I was just pointing out that you're argument is completely up to preference and playstyle, which, considering the game is an RPG, is pretty varied. Like any other souls game you can get a strong weapon, max vit and beat everything but that doesn't suddenly reduce the entire game to one simple method or solution.

I loved it. I think shields were done best in DS2. Turtling is a shitty experience in pvp, although can be balanced by significantly reducing such builds offensive capability.

It didn't work well in the souls games, but it's some thing that can be done right in the future.

>>379000959
>BB punishes panic dodging
no it doesn't. Stamina regenerates very quickly and you have 20 blood vials+rally to gain it back

>>379001313
are you retarded?

>>378995656
Would have been good if they added more options than gun.

>>379001407
no u

>>379001182
The weapons play differently and that's fun, but let's not pretend DS is some deep rpg series.

You decide what weapon you want to do then you just hit the softcap on damage for that weapon and grab health and either endurance or whatever third stat depending on the game. Congrats dude you just "built" a character.

My point is that the weapons define the variety not the stats, those are barebones as fuck.

>>379001313
What I mean is:
>get hit by first move of combo
>start mashing the button
>get hit by next move of combo because it's intentionally delayed to hit you right when your i-frames end
>rinse and repeat until you learn your timing
This is especially prevalent in DaS3 where nearly every humanoid boss does it.

>>379001456
He's calling you retarded because you take a bunch of additional damage if you get hit dodging, it causes a lot of bosses to oneshot you if you're not overleveled and fuck up a dodge.

>>379001456
What does having healing items and fast stamina regeneration have to do with getting punished? You still get punished even if you can heal you fucking idiot.

>>379001313
>Casual enemies kill you in 3 to 4 hits and stun lock you
>Special enemies and bosses can all one-shot you

No, you moron, bb punishes you hard as hell for panicking. And they even put in enemies like lanterns and sharks who are specifically designed to induce panic the first time you encounter them just so the game can rape you if you don't control yourself

>>378997083
>came here to post this
Came here to post this.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
:^)

>>379000820

>t. Someone who hasn't played DS3

DS3 gameplay is literally the same, but with less retarded R1 smashing

>>379001514
>let's not pretend DS is a deep series
I'm not but it's nice to have more variety than Bloodborne had and that's what makes it feel boring in the long run. Dark souls had a lot more weapons and magic and while this did give it a lot of fluff it also made each play through feel at least a little different if you decide to use a different weapon or magic or whatever
>>379001532
I haven't played 3, but In Bloodborne it works like this
>get hit
>boss kills me in with is constant clawing or whatever
or
>boss hits me
>escape it's autistic spasms
>go hit it for health or pop a blood vial

>>379002063
For me I actually find BB to have more variety because most weapons have unique movesets, but I don't really rp or anything so I know some people get a lot of runs out of that.

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>>378995656

It was a shit game all round. Filled with poor design choices and plagued with technical limitations that made the poor design choices even more glaring.

Before any of you poor as fuck console only cucks start up, there's my ps4 and bloodborne copy. I own it, I cleared it, it was shit

>>378995656
Must of been a good idea because the game is better than Dark Souls

>>379001976
>DS3
>less R1 mashing than anything

>>378995656
Good. Real men don't use shields.

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>>378995656
Good, shields and blocking in general are for pussies. Dash/dodge is so much sexier.

>>379001721
Because it gives you a lot of second chances
>>379001746
>bosses can kill you in one hit
Special enemies like sharks and winter lanterns are very few and far between and you don't have to dodge winter lanterns. Most bosses have pretty slow for Bloodborne telegraphed attacks, the one hit kills for the most part

>>379002063
>it also made each play through feel at least a little different if you decide to use a different weapon or magic or whatever
And the trick weapons don't have enough variety to make playthroughs feel different enough?

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So do you fags just exclusively dodge, or exclusively block?

Why the fuck is shield vs. rolling a thing? You can use both depending on the situation and enemy.

What the hell are you fags trying to prove?

>>379002291
I find it less so for its lack of weapons and magics.

>>379002609
Does it really increase the enjoyment for you having 12 straight swords with essentially the same moveset? I'm not chirping I'm genuinely curious.

>>379002531
Why block when you can dodge and parry?

>>379002709
Why only dodge and parry when you can do all three whenever you want and not be a judgemental child about it?

>>378995656
It didn't really affect anyone, nobody with a brain used shields in Souls games anyway unless they hated fun or just used them as a parrying tool for aesthetics.

>>378995656
Shields destroy all strategy in dark souls. That being said, you can simply choose not to use shields. You can't really choose not to dodge in BB, and the dodge buff basically turned the game into Kingdom Hearts.

So it depends on what kind of game you prefer: a more slow-paced, strategic action RPG with some overpowered options, or a fast-paced, dodgespam action game, like KH or the new Nier.

>>379002453
No. There's fluff in Bloodborne weapons too. Like the two cleavers and beast hunter saif or kirkhammer and LHB and some weapons are boring like tonturis or blades of mercy

>>379002437
Having a lot of second chances doesn't mean you don't get punished. What games do you play where getting punished results in instant death everytime with no second chances? Giving the player multiple chances in a game where recognizing enemy attack animations and patterns is integral is good game design.

>>379002753
Blocking breaks the flow of fast combat. It's also riskier to dodge and parry.

>>379002832
>Tonitrus
>boring
nigger i'll cut you

removing estus was the worst decision. blood vials are garbage in every way

>>379000346
The problem was that getting gems that made that worth it was near impossible.
90% of the gems in the base game are only for physical damage. And even if you do scale into arcane, most weapons are set up so that 25 25 str skl is going to always do way more damage than 50 arc.

I'm doing an arc build rn, even at 38 arcane 16 str and 12 skl it would be way better for me to just unslot my fire gem and use fire paper unless I'm fighting someone with a fire weakness more than 10%

>>379002678
Well yes because BBfriends generally overblow the amount of similar weapons in Dark Souls. There are more unique weapons in dark souls than Bloodborne because of sheer quantity alone funnily enough.

>>379002939
Tonitrus is fucking garbage you tard

>>379002979
After buying 700 blood vials to max out my inventory and storage box, I'm okay with them now.
I was only ever in danger of running out early on in the game.

>>379003047
Movesets arent as interesting tho

>>379002979
I agree, it's why I gave up on Orphan, which I regret. I was fucking tired of grinding for more vials and there was no way I was going to beat him without any.

>>379003051
Tonitrus is objectively the best arcane weapon until you get cauliflower form

>>379002979
>waaahh I should have infinite healing and not be punished for being garbage

>>379002531
Nothing, Bloodborne's combat philosophy is faster combat compared to the Souls games. Having shields be super powerful would utterly break the flow of the game.

>>379003194
Arcane is garbage you tard

>>379003254
Arcane is objectively one of the most fun builds

>>379003205
Fuck you im not bad

>>379002864
But I don't get punished in BB by bosses all the time? They're fairly lenient
>Having a lot of second chances doesn't mean you don't get punished. What games do you play where getting punished results in instant death everytime with no second chances?
This is a contradictory statement I think
>>379002939
I liked it, even used it for a play through or two but cmon anon

>>379003338
Then you should never have to grind for vials you tard

>>379003321
still garbage compared to everything else

>>379003409
you are racist

>>379003409
if the intent is that you never should grind for vials then why not make them act like Estus?

>>378995656
A positive, Bloodborne removed all the cheese in DaS, however it was replaced by different kinds of cheese. Specifically the rally mechanic and the fuckhuge window for parries.

As for which one is better, that's debatable, but I do think Bloodborne has the better base model, all they have to do is nerf rally and make parries harder.

>>379003130
What's interesting about saw cleavers, kirk hammers and boomhammers movesets then?
>>379003205
Why should he be punished by dying for being shit instead of having to tediously grind or go through two loading screens when he runs out?

>>379002390

Than BB, yes

>>379003409
if you never had to grind vials you might as well say that the game was piss easy

>>378995656
definitely a good decision, in DaS and DeS you could just hide behind a 100% damage reduction kite shield with a spear from the start

>>379003659
>rallying and parry windows
>cheese
you do not know the meaning of that term lad
>>379003729
Yeah the game's piss easy, every Souls game is, and thus any human being with an IQ above 30 should never have to farm vials, so it's an irrelevant criticism.

>>378995797
fast-paced gameplay is literally more tactical you mong
there's way more possible decisions per second

>>379003714
BB isn't an R1 mash unless you're a retard. Any decent player knows their transform combos, and any mashing of R1 has more than it's fair share of O taps in between.

Standing still and mashing attack in bloodborne is death. Any enemy aside from the most basic trash mob has "Fuck you get away from me" hyperarmor attacks to discourage mashing.

>>379003438
Wrong.

>>379003438
>he hasn't run a pure arc build
>he hasn't bullied Maria to death with the Augur
>he hasn't used tools and and arcane gem'd saw spear to shit on the whole game

How are you such garbage?

Why the fuck is making a decent looking female character in Bloodborne fucking impossible.

>character looks good in creator
>looks like shit in-game

>>379004643
why do you care?

>>379004891
>third person game
>gotta look at an ugly motha for half of it, or always if you don't want to wear a headpiece
cool

>>379005137
>looking at your face in a third person game
I can understand if it's for fashion but if it's not for that then it shouldn't matter too much

>>379005305
Everything should look good. The character creator is lame in these games.

>>378995656
bad for pvp, good otherwise

>>379005305
It's always for fashion. Not having the game shaders in the creator really fucked up the process. I'm having more trouble in Bloodborne than I ever did any of the Souls games trying to make something that resembles a human female.