>muh low skill floor educate yourselves

I'm trying very hard to understand what your point is and I've got nothing

I don't get it. Your pic doesn't at all support the implications of your text.

>>378606292
????????????

>>378606292
How many A presses is that?

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>/v/ is filled with idiots
of course

tell me then, this guy has a low or high skill floor?

>>378607068
low skill floor
low skill ceiling

>>378607068
Who the fuck is that. Does it even matter? High skill floor is only a problem for casuals.

What's wrong with a low skill floor and high skill ceiling? That way it's easy to pick up but extremely difficult to master, like how in Street Fighter 3 anyone can press a kick button and a kick would happen meaning anyone can have fun. But only pros can do amazing shit and compete at the highest levels.

It's like saying chess is shit because the rules are simple and easy to understand.

>>378606292
Gonna start a discussion because OP forgot to-

Skill ceilings and skill floors have an INVERSE relationship, the higher the floor, the lower the ceiling, ect.

Dota and lol is best example of this I can think of.

>>378607179
Literally nothing, only utter retards say otherwise. That's the ideal all games should strive for.

>all these "low skill floor" answers
basically proves my point. educate yourselves.

>>378607068
>make an ambiguous post that no one understands
>get called out
>hurr ur all idiots I see
>ask another ambiguous question without explaining yourself

what is this weird meta trolling?

>>378607179
Low skill floor= harder to pick up.

>>378607243
you're still not explaining yourself, just making ambiguous statements and calling everyone an idiot while making more ambiguous statements

>>378607223
this guy gets it. Junkrat has a high skill floor, in that he's effective even when a potato is playing him.

>>378607243
>completely fail to communicate whatever your point was
>blame everyone else
k

>>378607306
That's the complete opposite though. Low skill floor means the barrier to entry is low meaning that the game is pick up and play in terms of controls.

High skill floor is when the game is harder to pick up and understand. Pretty much the difference between learning how to shoot in CSGO versus learning how to punch and kick in Street Fighter

>>378607392
that would mean he has a low skill floor, anon

>>378607306
but that's wrong, you absolute fucking retarded nigger

>>378607459
how does that correlate with skill ceiling? show me a diagram

How dumb are the people in this thread?

>>378607447
>>378607530


Thats not what a skill floor means at all.

Look at the fucking graph.
Lower = less skill.
Higher= moreskill

Therefore- a lower floor = lower max skill = harder to get basic skill.

>>378607659
>lower max skill

but that's fucking wrong you imbecile, anyone in any competitive game would call you out on being retarded

>>378607223
That doesn't follow at all, they don't affect each other. Especially because there are so many aspects that could contribute to a high skill floor, like initially awkward controls or poorly explained, hard to understand mechanics that do not affect the skill ceiling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQ4BAG520LY&feature=youtu.be&t=3m24s

>>378607659
idgaf about that graph that the obviously retarded third worlder op posted

you don't get to redefine a term with a retarded graph

the term skill floor means the minimum level of skill required to be able to perform well enough to play the game at a reasonable level, i.e. actually contributing to a team in an online game or having a chance of winning a single player game

a lower skill floor means it is easier to perform at the basic level

this isn't fucking rocket science

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Skill floor = how much skill you need to be effective at playing a character. Think of it like input; necessary skill.
Low skill floor = You don't need much skill at all to learn it.
High skill floor = You need to be very skilled initially to learn it.

Skill ceiling = how much total effectiveness you can get out of a character. Think of it like output.
Low skill ceiling = Effectiveness of the character is pretty low.
High skill ceiling = Effectiveness is high.

A low skill floor + low skill ceiling character is balanced for new players.
A high skill floor + high skill ceiling character is balanced for experienced players.

A low skill floor + high skill ceiling character is unbalanced and will invariably become so commonplace the game is ruined.
A high skill floor + low skill ceiling character is unbalanced and will almost never be used.

>>378607605
Stop samefagging you fucking autistic faggot.

You need to come to terms with the fact that not everyone in the world has the exact same thought process you do. You failed to communicate your point accurately. Stop being a baby and samefagging that everyone else is a retard and re-word what the fuck you are trying to imply.

>>378607068
>playing shit games

>>378607835
>skill ceiling/floor discussion
>on a game that was designed to be as brainless and simple as possible for anyone to play

>>378607996
which makes perfect case for a "skill floor", don't you think?

>>378607872
>A high skill floor + low skill ceiling character
These characters exist?

>>378608065
In a lot of games. Especially older fighting games.

>>378607851
a skill floor is the level of play you get for being a mouth breathing retard. It is the minimum level of play outside of just jamming the controller up your ass.

A higher skill floor means the game is easier to play.

How is this fucking hard to understand

>>378608061
>don't you think?
>/v/
>"think"

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>>378608121

>>378608065
Not in any decent games that's for sure. They'd be broken trash that's never used by anyone.

>>378608189
So your gonna argue there is a level lower then floor, a term used to sum up the lowest possible value?

>>378607835
that dude is an idiot, the term skill floor has existed long before overwatch, and it had a definitive meaning long before overwatch

>>378608263
You're*

Stop making up arguments for the sake of it.

>>378607031
this would be 0 A presses, it requires the A button, but the release is not required, meaning you can use an earlier A press, carry it through this section, and then use the same A press for the next release.

That's amazing value given most people would need to do a FULL A press for this, you've saved 2 half A presses to use somewhere else in the run.

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>>378608316

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>>378608384
I'm not the guy you were originally arguing with btw.

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>>378608436

>>378608121
I kinda get the train of thought here (floor being higher up means you can reach the ceiling easier) but the definition isn't something that has practical application. If you say that a game has a high skill floor using your definition then it's a meaningless statement because how easy the game is to pick up and play would then depend entirely on the skill ceiling.

dont all games have a low skill floor? i mean isnt the skill floor when you first start playing? this enter concept makes no sense

>>378608065
think c falc in melee
highly technical with zero results

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>>378608489
I could continue this for 50 maxed out threads but I've got a dildo with my name on it. I bid you adieu.

>>378606292
People who think skill ceilings exist are often those with no brainpower to allow for creative thinking.

>>378608520
It is, but in the case of games with several starting points (different characters) some players can have a better result with the same zero skills.

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>>378608571

>>378608604
Skill ceilings definitely exist on simpler games such as Overwatch, anon. There are a finite amount of situations and scenarios due to their limited tools.

>>378608604
Skill ceilings obviously have to exist but most of the time you can't talk about them with any sort of accuracy. Even the best players in the world don't hit them because there's only so much humans can do. It's all hypothetical useless discussion, pretty much the anime power level discussion of video games.

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>>378606292
>muh half A presses
educate yourselves

>>378608778
Averages. Some characters are always more effective than others across the board. If you want a more accurate view of where the ceiling is take the best players in the world and combine their averages.

>>378607872
>Skill ceiling = how much total effectiveness you can get out of a character. Think of it like output.

What this isn't right at all. The Skill Ceiling is just the amount of mechanical skill needed to perform optimally. If I had two characters, character A requiring one input to perform 10 damage and character B requiring seventeen consecutive inputs to do 10 damage character B obviously has a much higher skill cieling but isn't doing anymore output.

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>that game that is impossible to master

>>378608754
Rarely is a there is a true skill ceiling otherwise everyone would be a pro player.

Often at the "skill ceiling" it's just a slightly sloped curve, so you need huge amounts of skill differential to be noticeably more effective..

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>>378609024
You're confusing the floor with the ceiling. I thought making the distinction between input and output would help you retardos grasp the concept.

>>378608502
Thank you for the good faith argument btw.

I get the other train of though too.
Its just.. wrong. Thats just not how the term floor or ceiling work at all in graphs/math/statistics.

If I asked 10,000 people to bench press, and 1 dude could only lift 15 pounds. He is the floor, the lowest (sample) value.

15 pounds is not the "ease of weightlifting" or whatever.

15 pounds would be considered the lowest possible value for human lifting.

You know.. the floor.

Applied to vidya-

The higher a skill floor, the easier the the thing is to do.

Basically any retard can pick engineer in tf2, build a sentry gun and have it do their work for them

This doesnt mean its not possible to be a better engi.

Imagine the same retard played the high skill classes, in tf2's case I will say the scout.

How well do you think he will do? He wont accomplish anything, thus a LOWER skill floor.

>>378609151
Oh, so you understand how the term is used and what it generally means, but are upset that "ceiling" isn't technically accurate?

>>378607887
That was my first post in the thread, which you'd know if you weren't dumb.

My understanding of it is the difference between the floor and the ceiling is how big a range of skill that given thing has.

Like the difference between somebody who's relatively new to a character, and somebody who's played them for hundreds of hours. The bigger a difference in capability of those two (beyond just the basics such as knowing how to play an FPS in the first place), the wider the gap between floor and ceiling exists.

For example, a character who after like an hour of play you're generally able to play them as well as someone with several times more experience with them than you. They simply don't have room to grow as the player's skill improves, so they have a low skill ceiling. In contrast, a character that just completely blows your mind out your asshole when you see them played well by somebody who knows the character in and out.

One of the first examples of low floor high ceiling that I can think of is the Soldier in TF2. Sure you can be relatively effective shooting rockets into chokepoints and killing people with splash damage, or you can be the guy who knows how to cross the map in like 2 seconds with pinpoint rocket jumps and knows exactly how to launch every other character in the game at any given point on the map and shoot them out of the air reflexively. There's a big fucking gap there.

>>378609472
The floor is higher on scout, it's harder to get higher up
Also these floors have nothing to do with eachother, they are used to tell people how difficult it is to be useful at a specific character. It's easier to get on top of a 1 meter high table than a 2 meter high table, but in both cases you are on a table which was the lowest requirement to properly play the game. Then you start reaching for the ceiling

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I never considered the skill floor/ceiling with regards to how OP a character is, only with the difficulty of initially learning and eventually mastering, I.E. a low skill floor is easy to initially learn and a high skill floor is more difficult, and low skill ceiling is easy to master and get near perfect with your inputs,
responses and decisions(regardless of how effective they are) and a high skill ceiling obviously being the most difficult master requiring shit like getting timing down to individual frames to get the full effectiveness of a move and or character.

>>378609924
>>378610037

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_floor

Minimum wage is a price floor, for example of the use of the term "floor" to define values.

Floor is the lowest value.

Higher floor= Higher minimum level of play.

Lower floor=Lower minimum.

High floor= Easy, Flow floor= harder.

ahurr adurrr.

Could you clarify what you are attempting to convey here, OP?

Skill floor is how easy something is to pick up. The ceiling represents how much room there is for growth and mastery.

Think of the old cliche "easy to pick up, difficult to master." That would be a game or character with a low skill floor and a high skill ceiling.

>>378609472
>If I asked 10,000 people to bench press, and 1 dude could only lift 15 pounds. He is the floor, the lowest (sample) value.
>15 pounds is not the "ease of weightlifting" or whatever.
>15 pounds would be considered the lowest possible value for human lifting.
No one. NO ONE. Uses the terms "skill floor" or "skill ceiling" in this way when talking about video games.
They're more or less always used as synonymous with "amount of skill-based barrier to entry" and "amount of skill needed to achieve mastery".
Please understand that words have different meanings in different contexts, then shut up.

>>378610234
but what if you flip the axes?

I think a lot of people here confuse "easy to play" with "easy to perform"

>>378610456
Then you are using the term floor and ceiling incorrectly and instead of adjusting your terminology to convey what you actually mean, you are sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming that your way is right.

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>>378610234
I disagree with that statement, a Steep learning curve originally meant hard or difficult to learn.

>>378609472
No one ever used that definition for games though, what's the point? It also gets kinda fucky because you don't have a clear numerical measurement of something like skill, so "lower" and "higher" aren't as applicable.

>>378607659
no. skill floor is the prerequisite basic skills. the less effort to get the basic skills, the better so that you can get going on learning the rest of the game

>>378610312
You are literally contradicting yourself there.
Lower floor means less skill needed to play well, higher floor means more skill needed to play well

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You can describe OP's pic in multiple different ways, and they'd all make sense and easy to understand. You can't say the same to those who claim "low skill floor = easy to perform".

>>378610737
>>378610732
>>378610693

see >>378610678

>>378610925
>use correct terminology
>no one understands what the fuck you're talking about and end up derailing any discussion
>use incorrect terminology
>potentially productive discussion without any confusion
You're the only person I've seen who refuses to accept this definition, it has never been a problem and most likely never will be otherwise.

>>378610678
As if notable philosophers got together to properly define skill floor and skill ceiling and both terms put into the dictionary so that all might know what exactly those terms mean. In other words, you should've defined your terms at the beginning of the thread rather than think that everyone agreed with your definition.

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Pretend I can draw curved lines

I don't think >>378610234
covers noob gains. Also just because your skill is rewarded with steep gains doesn't mean it doesn't plateau out

>>378610312

You're an idiot and this thread is stupid. I can only assume you're the same person samefagging constantly because I refuse to believe there's more than one of you that could get things so completely and utterly wrong.

>>378610678
>you are sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming that your way is right.
And you're whining about widely accepted and commonly used terminology that no amount of whining on your part will ever have a chance in hell of changing in the slightest.
You're basically trying to fight language.

Good luck with your whining though, I leave you to it.

>>378610916
Correct.
>>378611035
>>378611032
>>378611057
>>378611152

Refer to previously replied post.

>>378611054

A floor is the lowest point. You cannot have less skill than the skill floor. The same is true with ceiling.

>>378610925
You seem to not understand that this way of thinking about skill floors and ceilings has been around for years and has become the standard. It's not the same as some other floors or ceilings but that's how language works

>>378611404

Outside of this thread I have never heard it used this way.

Take hunters in wow. Most people I know constantly make fun of them for the high skill floor, because a drooling retard can still be somewhat effective with the class.

>>378610916

This picture doesn't even make sense. A bad Genji will just run out and die horribly, he absolutely does not have a low skill floor.

Similarly Lucio most certainly has a low skill floor because you can just stay out of harms way and contribute to a teamfight just fine.

>>378611396
>You cannot have less skill than the skill floor
Yes you can, there's the basement for mouth breating retards like that. Also everyone starts in the basement but anyone not retarded will reach the floor pretty quickly, assuming it's not too high up for them

>>378611574
They make fun of hunters having a low skill floor, now go back to /b/ with your shitty troll thread

OP have you tried Googling these terms in relation to video games?

>>378611396
Skill floor refers to the point where you reach basic competency from a starting point of no skill

>>378611590
Thats exactly what the image conveys you fucking retard

>>378611396
>A floor is the lowest point. You cannot have less skill than the skill floor. The same is true with ceiling.

Realistically a continuum. Rarely can you not play worse or better. It's just non linear at very low skill levels, a blind person vs a normal player is a bigger gap than a normal player to a pro.

Except in rare cases like CHess where grandmasters can beat 30 normal players while blindfolded

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>>378610234
I trust this settles the matter.

>>378611590
>A bad Genji will just run out and die horribly,
Which is why his skill floor is lower. Lucio's skill floor is higher, which means that an unskilled player can do well with him.

You're mixing up ceiling and floor like a lot of people

>>378611404
>that's how language works
show us in graph then how it should be, that way language won't matter.

>>378612067
Pretty decent singleplayer curve

overwatch from the point of inception was a terribly designed game with 0 effort or thought towards competitive gameplay

first tournament run by players featured 5 mcree's

then they patched in only 1 player per hero

their balancing has been dog shit, there are clear discrepancies and clearly some heroes are trash while others are OP as fuck

a lot of the game's netcode is extremely poor, but i might say they do surface a lot of information really well on PC atleast.

game is dead competitive wise, and just in general. while REAL actual competitive games like rainbow6 siege gets instant queues, overwatch takes 3-5+ minutes to find 1 match.

also, majority of players in overwatch simply tunnel vision, never speak to team, and never communicate or use actual tactics, the entire concept of overwatch is about braindead tunnel vision spamming fire and moving forward on 24/7 push maps with the most simple minded objectives imaginable.

overwatch is not a competitive game, the same way hearthstone isn't or any blizzard game. their balance is dog shit. they balance for success, not for competition.

real competitive modes like CTF on overwatch fail because overwatch isn't competitive.

The idea of a skill floor/skill ceiling is a bit ridiculous because there's no metric for "In Game Performance" or "Personal Aptitude".

It's purely hypothetical nonsense. In order to justify the concept of a "Skill Ceiling" or "Skill Floor" you need a way to measure to "Skill" in some objective fashion. There's no way to actually do that though. We can only discuss relative skill, and within that framework it's ridiculous to try and argue the existence of a skill ceiling or a skill floor. This sort of discussion is spawned out of the fighting game community which is especially autistic and likes to make character "tier" list so it's no surprise that it's retarded.

Any sort of skill floor would begin with literally not putting any input into the game, and there is no such thing as a hard skill ceiling where improvement is impossible. You can't even argue that there are diminishing returns on skill because all competition is decided by relative skill. The more skilled you are, the greater your odds of success. Improvement is always possible, even if it becomes much more subtle and nuanced at higher skill levels.

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>>378612067

>>378613551
>there is no such thing as a hard skill ceiling where improvement is impossible
Counterstops exist

>>378606292
It's possible to start below and above the skill floor.

Your drawing is not particularly insightful.

>>378613551
Being the best is the skill ceiling retard. If the best player beats you 100-0 then its a big skill ceiling. If a mid-tier players beats you 100-0 then its a big skill ceiling.
If a low tier players beats you 100-0 then its an enourmous skill ceiling.

>>378613673
It's not about growth retard

>>378613551
can't say about Overwatch, but
>In Game Performance
K/D
>Personal Aptitude
ELO

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>>378613570
>>378612067
For the record, I deleted my post, I thought it was from that one autist who thought a low skill floor=more difficult.

My apologies

>>378613551
>It's purely hypothetical nonsense. In order to justify the concept of a "Skill Ceiling" or "Skill Floor" you need a way to measure to "Skill" in some objective fashion.
But dude, you could say the same sorts of things about anything subjective, and with a piece of media, the subjective elements are going to be almost every meaningful aspect of them, such as "Difficulty", "Replayability", or "Mechanical Depth".

They are useful tools for conveying ideas in discussions of subjective shit, not precise scientific terms, and that's just fine. Calm the 'tism.

>>378607872
Low + low = sniper
High + high = meepo
Low + high = weaver
High + low = brood

>>378613738

I was under the impression that skill ceiling and skill floor referred to game design and not skill rankings. Which are an entirely separate debate entirely. Skill rankings are RELATIVE and not related to game design at all.

>>378614424
It's a subjective discussion with the intent of being an objective one, much like tier lists or metagaming.

In reality, skill is entirely a relative metric. We can only compare our performance to other people and most importantly, there is no such thing as a limit to improvement. We have a baseline obviously, since zero input exists, but there is no hard limit to growth in the vast majority of games.

>>378606292
>>378607068
ok retard

>>378612196

That's still completely nonsensical and comes off backwards. The floor is the baseline skill necessary to begin playing a character, so how does that correlate to "higher = easier to play"?

If we consider the skill ceiling to be a hard cap on what a character can accomplish regardless of the player's skill, then the reverse of that would be how little a character can accomplish despite the player's lack of skill. A character that literally only stands in place and radiates out healing waves for their team is going to play exactly the same no matter how good the person playing it is, so it has both a low skill floor and low skill ceiling.

This has been pretty damn good bait. I applaud you OP.

>>378615363

The key is it's not "easier to play' but "easier to play well", which is 100% bullshit but it helps explain the mentality. An awful Lucio can accidentally be useful and accomplish slightly more than an awful genji.

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>>378606292

>>378615510

>The key is it's not "easier to play' but "easier to play well"

But that's a completely different kind of argument. That's the fuzzy middle ground between floor and ceiling.

>>378615185
>It's a subjective discussion with the intent of being an objective one
again
>you could say the same sorts of things about anything subjective, and with a piece of media, the subjective elements are going to be almost every meaningful aspect of them, such as "Difficulty", "Replayability", or "Mechanical Depth".

Here, allow me to demonstrate:
BattleToads is a hard game.

>>378607068
low floor and ceiling
have you seen the way the game handles his sticky jump? it's this weird parabolic arc that limits it to one angle only, it's pathetic

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>>378609472
The bar on a bench press is 45 lbs or kg equivalent
If you can't lift 45 lbs, you cannot do anything on the bench press. This is the floor. If you only lift 40lvs, you cannot use the bench press.
Even though the bench press floor is at 45, the ceiling is much higher from anywhere between 300-600 depending on person.

>>378607179
What you're describing there is a high skill floor and high skill ceiling. Recently people seem to have gotten it mixed up for some reason, but skill floor has always been defined as the effectiveness at minimum skill level, whereas skill ceiling refers to the effectiveness at maximum skill level. You may think otherwise if only for the intuitive correlation of "low" being "easy" but you're still redefining a commonly used term which is an easy way to cause misunderstandings.

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>>378617537
Proof, because I've never heard it used with regards to how effective or useful it is only in the sense of learning, and the people I've heard or read it from the most, strike me as the most likely to use it that way and they don't appear too do that all even going so far as to mention skill floor/ceiling as a completely separate conversation and usually with regards to individual games.

>>378617537
>Recently people seem to have gotten it mixed up for some reason
Blame MOBAs, they adopted the terms "skill foor" and "skill ceiling" from fighting games and ended up getting the definitions completely reversed. LoL/DotA2 players frequently use floor to refer to the skill level required to play well, which in effect is the reverse of the actual definition, since a "high skill floor" traditionally meant "easy to play."

>>378618075
>since a "high skill floor" traditionally meant "easy to play."
Where the hell did you get that from? Even fighting games referred "high skill floor" to "hard to play decently"

>>378609472
>>378608502
I think people seem to be confusing skill floor with barrier of entry. A low skill floor certainly seems to point towards the game being harder to pick up. A low barrier of entry means you don't need much skill to be able to access the minimum level of play. I guess following this train of throught, the so called barrier of entry is the proverbial step from the "bottom" to the "skill floor"

>>378619882
>I think people seem to be confusing skill floor with barrier of entry
No one is "confusing" it. It's simply what the term has come to mean over time.

>>378619882
I can see how that could confuse people. The problem is if they use it in that way the term becomes meaningless and, perhaps most importantly, defined in a completely different way than its "ceiling" counterpart. After all, there's not a lot of debate on the definition of the skill ceiling: the point at which higher levels of skill grant negligible performance increase. It logically follows, then, that the floor describes the point at which lower levels of skill grant negligible performance decrease. As such: the higher the floor, the better you can do with minimal skill; while the lower the ceiling relative to the floor, the less room there is for growth.

Let's just imagine a game with only two characters. Jimmy can use a fireball attack that takes one button press to perform and deals 100 damage. Esmeralda Hirabayashi can use a fireball attack that takes two button presses with precise timing and deals 100 damage. At the highest levels of skill, there is no difference between Jimmy and Esmeralda Hirabayashi, so they have equivalent skill ceilings. But Esmeralda Hirabayashi has a much lower skill floor than Jimmy, as there is more room for error when performing her inputs, and so lower levels of skill can reduce one's effectiveness at playing her than they can at playing Jimmy.

>>378608520
The skill floor varies its position on the "skill" axis of the graph depending on what game is being talked about, or what character when applicable.
Usually games with high skill floors are bad because you don't want to demand a lot of high technical skill from new players just starting the game. But for the sake of example, I'd say Zelda games have low skill ceilings while Starcraft PvP has a high skill ceiling, because the technical skill and mastery of game mechanics demanded of the player by the game are so wildly different between the two games. Starcraft has its single-player campaigns to easy players into the gameplay, however.
Skill ceilings and floors are more often used to refer to difference characters in competitive games, usually fighting games.

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>>378619882
>stepping up to a low skill floor is harder than stepping up to a high skill floor
>implying that barrier to entry even fits the floor/ceiling analogy
>barrier to entry is not synonymous with skill floor

>>378610081
There's some general correlations between skill floor/ceiling and the tier rankings of the characters, but really there is no relation at all. I've seen extremely complex character be the bottom-of-the-barrel picks just because they take so much more effort and skill to meet the same level of play as other characters, so they aren't worth it, but I've also seen high-complexity characters dominate tier lists because the numerous options available to them in any situation compared to most other characters give them a significant edge, which skilled players can capitalize on.
It really depends on the game and the fine-tuned balancing the devs put into it all.

>>378621393
>barrier to entry is not synonymous with skill floor
Correct, it isn't.
>stepping up to a low skill floor is harder than stepping up to a high skill floor
Because you don't "step up" to a skill floor. You start at the floor. That's why it's called a fucking "floor". You can't go below the floor. There's no skill basement. A high skill floor means you can get shit done even if you lack skill, while a low skill floor means you can't get much shit done if you lack skill.

>>378611396
>You cannot have less skill than the skill floor.
Yes you can, it's called being so bad at the game that you can't properly contribute or compete with the given character that you've selected. In PvP games everyone starts below the skill floor. If a character has a lower skill floor, then it is easier to play that character in a competent manner. If a character has a high skill floor, then it is harder to reach a level of competent play with that character and begin actually contributing/competing.

See you think that skill floor and skill ceiling specifically take the effectiveness of a character into account, I'm saying that since those terms are often used with comparing games as well as characters, that how OP a character is, is secondary to the conversation that they're having about how easy to play/learn/master a character is, you're trying to plot a line graph, when most people think of it as a single vertical line, or if their smart two separate vertical lines since skill ceiling is about mastery and skill floor is more about intuitive ease of use.

>>378622418
meant to reply to>>378621774

>>378621984
>it's called being so bad at the game that you can't properly contribute or compete with the given character that you've selected.
Then you picked a character with too low a skill floor. If you picked a character with higher skill floor you would have been able to properly contribute despite how bad you are at the game.

This is probably one of those losing battles like "steep learning curve" = "difficult to learn" instead of the correct opposite, where the nonsensical definition that makes it literally impossible to graph becomes accepted by people who misinterpret the meaning of words. It's strange, since 10 years ago there wasn't much confusion over skill floors but there's been such an influx of new players misusing the term that we might as well redefine it to match the majority usage as the barrier of entry.

>>378622704
What is Quake, Counter Strike, and Unreal Tournament?

>>378615363
>The floor is the baseline skill necessary to begin playing a character
In OP's case, the skill floor is the the performance level any person could expect, regardless of their game knowledge. If I tell you all the controls to your character, you will perform no worse than the skill floor. There is no "skill requirement" for picking a character because anyone can pick it.

>>378623553
Replace game knowledge with "personal skill" before it turns into a tangent.

Genji has a high skill floor.
The skill required to play him at the same effectiveness as say, S76, is a lot higher than what it takes to play S76 at that level.

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>>378606292
I modified your chart OP. I agree entirely, but I've added something else too.
Let this be useful to everyone.

>>378608065
Olimar (Sm4sh), Rachel Alucard (Blazblue), and Aurelion Sol (League of Legends) come to mind.

Basically, gimmicky characters that are initially awkward to play but don't have much depth.

Skill ceiling is when you stop getting better results for being more skilled. So a character with a low skill ceiling reaches maximum effectiveness at a lower skill level than one with a high skill ceiling.

Skill floor is the opposite; it's when you stop getting worse results for being less skilled. So a character with a high skill floor is just as effective in the hands of somebody at the skill floor as he is in the hands of someone less skilled.

High skill floor =/= hard to pick up. Low skill floor characters are the ones that are hard to learn because they require some level of skill to reach an acceptable level of in-game effectiveness.

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>>378623734

>>378607223
A game can require an incredible amount of skill to be played properly, but then not test the skills of the player any further. Likewise, a game can be incredibly easy to learn and stay incredibly easy throughout, without ever allowing for higher displays of skills.

>>378618023
fuck off back to the reddit

High skill floors create a low skill ceiling.

>>378624743
High skill floors create lower performance differencials. The ceiling is independent of the floor.

>>378624743
No

>>378624923
>>378624927
Casual retards.

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>>378625017
>He never played a high skill floor character and reached the ceiling

>>378625209
I don't play kusoge with high skill floor characters/mechanics.

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>>378625336
>He can't git gud

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>>378625464
>>378625209
>avatarfagging

>>378625464
Do you know what high skill floor means you stupid ASSFAGGOT player? It means the game is easy.

>>378625543
Alright we're never going to agree on this point so I'll stop here

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>>378624280
I grudgingly accept your definition for skill floors in relation to your graphs and the arguments you presented, but would still mention the intuitiveness of low floor= easy to use, due to the confusion that would be caused if you were to start talking about games that have a high skill floor with a high skill ceiling.

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>>378607392
>>378607223
No.

Skill floor is how easy it is to grasp the basics of a game/character/whatever. Skill ceiling is how far your skill can take you.

A game that's easy to play even if you're retarded has a low skill floor, because even someone with low skill can do pretty well with it. A game that's really hard to play has a high skill floor, because unskilled people (i.e. those below the "floor") won't be able to play it well (if at all).

On the other end, a game that doesn't have any complexity beyond the bread and butter basics has a low skill ceiling, because at some point skill just stops making a difference. It's easy to "master" such a game. A game with a high skill ceiling usually has a god level of mechanical depth and complexity that puts a high emphasis on player skill. It's the typical "git gud" kind of game that requires genuine effort to reach the top (or whatever can be defined as "the top" in that game).

>low floor, high ceiling
The ideal game. Noobs can pick it up and have fun, while even pros can still find a challenge and learn new tricks sometimes.
>low floor, low ceiling
Most casual games. They're great for pick-up-and-go type of gameplay, but don't have much depth or competitive potential.
>high floor, high ceiling
A game that's hard to get into and may intimidate new players into just giving up, but is very rewarding for those who take the time to get good.
>high floor, low ceiling
This is usually the result of bad design. It requires effort to get into, but it doesn't do much to reward that effort. For example, a game that is difficult only because it has a bad UI and obscure/unintuitive mechanics, but doesn't have very interesting gameplay.

High skill floor = Even if you suck, you'll do well
Low skill floor = If you suck, it'll show
High skill ceiling = Git gud
Low skill ceiling = No matter how good you get at playing that character/role/whatever, you'll bet steamrolled by anyone who chose anything else

Is that the gist of this thread?

>>378611396
Isn't the point of the skill floor that it's the CHARACTER'S skill floor, not yours? I can't play something with a high/low skill floor and even though I've got all of 3 seconds playtime suddenly have enough skill to play someone with a lower/highter skill floor.

I understand what you're getting at, but if we working on a 1-10 scale of player skill, and we'll say I'm a 3, then any given character exists with a skill floor and a skill ceiling within this level of player skill. The gap between skill floor and ceiling is relevant on the player scale because suddenly a character that goes from say 2-4, is something relatively easy to pick up with a little bit of growth, but doesn't provide lots of complexity or options.

If you remove skill ceiling and skill floor from the "player skill" scale, then every character starts at 1 (bare minimum to play the character) and reaches to X (level of complexity from the bare minimum). Eg, there could be an "Easy to use, hard to master" (works of a very simple/basic level, but has lots of options available) character that has a floor:ceiling of 1:7, but a "hard to use, easy to master" (because the minimum requirement is already very close to the highest possible level of play) would have a floor:ceiling of 1:3.

On a scale of player skill (1-10), the first character might be a 2:8, and the second might be a 8:10. Using your definitions though, high/low skill floor and low/high skill ceiling effectively mean the same thing, and would risk implying that the latter is an easier character. Because what's the difference between a high skill floor and a low skill ceiling, if the only point of comparison is eachother? They both need a point of comparison which is player skill to function as a scale. Otherwise the floor is always 1 and the ceiling simply varies, without accounting for how difficult it is initially starting out as any given character, compared to any other.

>>378621774
>Because you don't "step up" to a skill floor. You start at the floor. That's why it's called a fucking "floor".
The word "floor" doesn't bear the implication that it's where you start off. Not every floor, nor every game, is accessible to everybody. Case in point: the ocean floor is very much inaccessible to most life forms.

Even if you use the expression differently you can't prove that the other use of the metaphor is inherently wrong, it's simply seeing things from a different perspective.

>>378625823
>High skill floor = Even if you suck, you'll do well
>Low skill floor = If you suck, it'll show

It's the other way around.

The skill floor is the minimum amount of skill you need in order to do well.

>>378625823
The gist of this thread is that no one agrees on the meaning.

>>378607068
No skill floor, low skill ceiling.

and to think this character rips off demoman who takes a ton of skill

>>378625886
It's the other way around.

>>378625812
It's funny that your graph perfectly illustrates why your definition of skill floor is retarded, yet ironically the actual line you plotted shows the correct definition of skill floor since you drew that you're always above it even with no skill.

>>378625812
Why are you reddiotors so fucking dumb.

>A game that's easy to play even if you're retarded has a low skill floor, because even someone with low skill can do pretty well with it.

games that are that easy to play competently have a high skill ceiling because they are shallow. Basic play is close to the highest possible level of play. They are always linked, they don't exist independently of each other. easy to play hard to master is fucking Orwellian double think.

>>378625840
By your example, say you have a skill of 3, then a character with a skill floor of 5 will make you perform as if you have a skill of 5 (instead of 3). Conversely, if you have a skill of say 8 and the character has a skill ceiling of 6, you'll always perform as if you have a skill of 6. It's that simple.

>>378607835

I dislike the way he describes a skill floor.

>easier character means higher skill floor
>aka the lowest the effectiveness can be assuming 0 skill

That would be an effectiveness floor.
Skill Floor would be more of need a certain amount of skill to play the hero to any effectiveness at all.

Low floor = easy to play
High floor = harder to play

High skill ceiling and low skill floor are synonyms. Just think of a house. this isn't hard.

>>378606292
counter strike started off as a game with lowest skill floor out of all popular shooters back in early 00's

other popular multiplayer titles from back then
- quake
- brood war
- unreal tournament
-rainbow six 2
- some smaller deathmatch games like soldier of fortune, etc - yet these provided no bigger depth or teamplay and were considered random +forward shooters
- return to castle wolfenstein

I'd like to see the 55IQ 15 year old ITT wrap there head around a positive and negative correlation.

>>378606292
If the red line represents your performance at your worst, shouldn't it coincide with the horizontal axis?

Oh wait, that would mean admitting that if you interpret the metaphor this way "high floor" and "low floor" basically mean nothing, because from your perspective they're both the lowest point (0) anyway.

Oh man, this is like /v/ arguing over the term Pay 2 Win. How the fuck can you ever be right when arguing dumb shit like this?

>>378625812
All three of your categories, "literally impossible", "the fun zone", and "literally unplayable" stretch across the entire skill axis. No surprise since your "skill floor" contradicts the entire point of the term.

>>378606292
What the fuck does the graph means ?

>>378626314
at that time cs was looked down upon by people from other games that called it a '2d shooter' thus naming it with lowest skill ceiling, mainly because of calling the shooting system 'point and click' with no tracking needed, and maps having 1-2 perfectly parallel floors

>>378626449
movement - wise cs has nothing to offer either and is mainly about positioning

If you're between the Skill Floor and Skill Ceiling, aka above a Skill Floor but below a Skill Ceiling, you're doing good enough to play, but you're still doing as good as how much skill you have.
If you're below a Skill Floor, you aren't up to the task at hand, and can't perform.
If you're above a Skill Ceiling, then you're doing as well as someone who has a skill that aligns with that Skill Ceiling, and someone whose skill is above yours. People above a Skill Ceiling will all play as optimally as each other.

>>378626106
>easy to play hard to master is fucking Orwellian double think.
Nah, think of fightan games
Anyone can button mash, but characters should have enough depth that it takes a lot of time and dedication to memorize one's moveset and learn to implement it effectively.

>>378626365
>If the red line represents your performance at your worst, shouldn't it coincide with the horizontal axis?
no, let's say going to the extreme to emphasize there's a character with an autotracking turret revolving around him. this makes the character having a high skill floor because even if you do nothing you perform at some competency (by the merit of the turrets) and therefore not zero, which is the same as someone playing another character with lower skill floor at that level properly. what the graph doesn't tell is that there's a minimum "effort" level in which you at least play the game properly.

>I AM ANGRY
>ANGRY ABOUT WORDS
>/v/

>>378626656
I'm not defining skill floor as "ability to play" as that is redundant. It's the ability to play competently, while the ceiling is the highest possible play. It's nonsense because every game is technically "easy to play" if you are pressing buttons you are playing the game. They mean easy to play well. And if a game is easy to play well it's easy to master.

>>378606292
I've only seen it used synonymously. I agree that it shouldn't be used synonymously, but what OP is suggesting leaves the definition of a skill floor up to too many variables and subjectivity. And I don't trust idiots to use it properly. Its the same with skill ceiling but people intuitively understand that.

>>378626106
>games that are that easy to play competently have a high skill ceiling because they are shallow

Not the guy you're replying to, but you're mistaken because you're implying that shallow games allow for players to be incredibly skilled and make complex moves and do amazing shit in.

It's a shallow game for a reason. You can get into it easily AND master it easily and feel proud of yourself. See mobile games that non-gamers play.

Yes, there are games that are easy to get into and difficult to master, but you can't describe then as shallow bevause they do have depth for you to grow your skills in.

>>378626532
I think the main point of this thread is the definition of a high/low skill floor, namely low skill floor=accessible versus low skill floor=inaccessible, skill ceiling is high=requiring a lot of skill, low=requiring very little skill.

>>378626695
is there anything /v/ isn't angry about?

>>378626825
No. Moron Shallow games are skillless. The ceiling is low/floor is high because there is no amazing/complex/high execution stuff in the game. at least nothing useful.

>>378626159
Yeah, I understand what you mean. And the point of contention here is definitely with the skill floor term, because what you have is EXACTLY what I mean by skill ceiling.

I guess when I think of it I think of skill floor as semi-synonymous with "level of complexity". To use fighting games as an example, anybody can hit punch/kick/move/block/jump, which is usually an option available to ALL characters in the game no matter what, and all players at skill level 1. At which point the question turns into "how good do you have to be to play [character] instead of just a punch/kick/move/block/jump machine with a different skin that technically qualifies as a character?"

How far removed from level 1 (player skill floor) is the being able to do the basics of what makes a character unique/different from the core systems the game revolves around (like you said, "skill basement" doesn't exist, because at that point you aren't even playing the game or making any inputs)?

A character with only punch-punch-punch/kick-kick-kick combos is very close to the player/game skill floor, because you require no extra skills to do "what that character does" as opposed to simply using the core game. punch-punch-pause-punch etc. would be higher, because it's more complex and harder to perform "what that character does". A character that can only fight at super-close range requires the player to be skilled enough to even effectively make use of "core" abilities, by use of careful spacing and dashing/dodging which might be more complex mechanics in this theoretical game.

You have some good arguments, but the terms seem to have come to mean the opposite over time even if they are technically wrong. Do you have an alternative term for "minimum skill required to play [character]..." than "[character]'s sill floor"?

>>378626887
Yeah, and if the skill floor's low, that means there's less room for someone to not be good enough to perform, as how much skill they need to reach that skill floor is low.
And if the Skill Ceiling is high, that means that the game rewards more players whose skill is high.

>>378626925
>games that are that easy to play competently have a high skill ceiling because they are shallow
>Shallow games are skillless. The ceiling is low
You're contradicting yourself

>skill floor = baseline competence required to not be a flailing retard
>low skill floor = easy to pick up and play
>high skill floor = casuals need not apply
>skill ceiling = potential for growth
>low skill ceiling = short step from competence to mastery, noncompetitive
>high skill ceiling = casual players and hardcore players are practically playing two different games, highly competitive
Anyone saying otherwise is wrong.

>>378627191
you are wrong

>>378608065
Kensei and Berserker in For Honor have a high skill floor and low skill ceiling.

>>378627227
Actually, you are wrong

>>378626925
The person im responding to said that they have a high skill ceiling
Now you're saying
>The ceiling is low/floor is high
Why are you agreeing with me by criticising me?

But I disagree with the floor being high. Its shallow and easy to get into. Its not supposed to have a high skill floor. Skill floor is low enough to get into quickly and the ceiling is low for you to feel like a champ after playing for an hour.

>>378627367
His definition of a high skill floor is that it's easy to get into.

>>378606292
skill floor: skill required to begin using effectively

skill ceiling: the highest skill level you can perform at due to constraints of the game

understand?

>>378626673
What you said doesn't address my point.

Let's take your example:
>a character with an autotracking turret revolving around him. this makes the character having a high skill floor because even if you do nothing you perform at some competency
If you do nothing and perform at some competency, then you can't really do worse, right? There is no lower "in-game competency" than that. This means that as far as this game is concerned, that should be the "zero" of "in-game competency", lowering the red bar (and the blue one with it) to coincide with the horizontal axis.

>>378627570
It's not zero in-game competency because there are other characters that can perform lower than that.

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You're a fucking retard OP, you're measuring skill floor and ceiling on the wrong goddamn axis and throwing a hissy fit

>>378627527
Oh okay. Kinda makes sense but then then there's the whole issue of definitions, so yeah.

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>>378627714
I love you

>>378606292
After reading this thread, I can't decide if it's a gigantic bait feed by people madness or a true chism between generation on the use of a general term

It's impressive really

>>378627714
Do you think it's possible for in game performance to increase before hitting the skill floor?

I know that your definition is that improvement comes once you've hit the skill floor, but in game skill should surely have room to fluctuate a little before you reach the skill floor?

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>>378607126
>Who the fuck is that
Have you been living under a rock? What kind of bait is this supposed to be

>>378627671
If the graph represent an individual character, then the bar must represent the zero (you can't perform worse than the worst).
If the graph represents the game, the bar also represents the zero (regardless of which character it refers to).

>>378628198
Meant "in game performance should surely have room"
Not in game skill ffs

>>378628212
It represents an individual character, but let's say you put two lines representing two different characters on the same graph. What would happen then?

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What are some high skill ceiling weapons in otherwise mediocre skill ceiling games?

>>378624236
>sol
sol mains actually have one of the highest winrates compared to other champs. Vayne is a better example, a good vayne can do a lot of cool stuff, but shes just so bad in lane you can never do those things.

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>>378628326

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>>378627714

>>378628658
Fucking BR

>>378628320
But the graph in the OP doesn't represent two characters, it represents one game.
Also what if there's only one character and one difficulty?

>>378607872
It doesn't say anything about balance though
You can have a low skill floor, high skill ceiling char that's underpowered, and a low/low one that's overpowered
Skill ceiling just designates how much you can improve when playing that character
In terms of boardgames:
Tic tac toe is low/low because it's incredibly easy to learn and doesn't have any room for improvement beyond the very basic patterns you can learn
Go is low/high because it's easy to learn, but you can become incredibly proficient at it
Chess is low-moderate/high, because there's a little more to learn than say go due to different move patterns, rules like check and en passant and stuff, and you can get incredibly good at it also

>>378618075
>since a "high skill floor" traditionally meant "easy to play."
Just no anon

>>378607105
Wrong.

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>ITT: "If the floor is higher that means you need less skill to reach it, guys! That totally makes sense, like how in real life it's easier to reach higher if you're shorter, right?"
Is this the same backwards ass methodology that DnD's 2E was founded upon?

>>378627714
But skill floor isn't the basis for improvement, it's the minimal level of skill required to perform a task

>>378627714
This anon is correct

>>378630258
It means less height when you fall, since average people have average skill, which is in the middle. Oh wait, you don't, so that's why you always need to "climb to the floor". kek.

>>378631025
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKjxFJfcrcA

wow /v/ literally doesn't know what skill floor means

who could have guessed

>>378631290
No OP you're just wrong

>>378631427
not OP bub

>>378631716
Doesn't even matter

>>378626809
CHESS YOU BLITHERING FOOL

>>378628198
game performance can change depending on circumstances

for example if i haven't slept in 48 hours my performance at the time can be lower than my actual skill

>>378606723
>>378606790
He's saying to git gud