Why do bosses in shooters (FPS or TPS) suck compared to bosses

Because genres like RPGs and hack'n'slash can do ridiculous concepts with bosses, while shooters basically need to be "shoot the thing until it dies" unless you're playing something with environmental puzzles or the ability to just run away.

FPSes are made by westerners and AAA western developers view boss fights as a waste of resources.

I dunno what you're talking about, when I did my pure soulbeam run in DaS it was a pretty fun TPS

>>378605193
First post best post as always.

Shooters shine more in their level, enemy and encounter design than boss design.

Doom (original) shows this pretty well where there is clearly more design space in those three areas than in boss design.

>>378605193
>>378605563

what do you guys think of DOOM 2016's boss fights?

FPS developers are just the least imaginative people on the planet. How many helicopters need to be shot out of the sky, how many waves of goons must be sent forth before that shield of ignorance finally falls and the take advantage of their genre to do something unique?

>>378606124
Until cod and battlefield stop making money. There is some innovation titanfall 2 is just fun to run around in. Movement mechanics are the future for shooters.

>>378604259
I thought Lost Planet had some really cool bossfights. Although to be fair it's pretty much just a sci fi, TPS version of Monster Hunter

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>>378604259
>he doesn't know about the greatest boss in video game history

>>378605898
I'd say they're a step in the right direction but still nowhere near great.

There have been shooters with good bosses, most FPS/TPS devs just tap out for some fucking reason on AAA titles. It's weird. There's just some goofy abstract design idea that waves of mooks are as intimidating as a real boss. Or god help us, cutscene "bosses." Far Cry 3 ripped me off with that shit, god damn.

MDK and MDK2 fucking dominated the entertaining boss fight scene for TPS. Dead Space is generally entertaining. Hell fucking Resident Evil can usually get the job done no matter how you feel about the modern sequels. How about Ratchet and Clank games? Up Your Arsenal has one of my all time favorite boss fights in Dr Nefarious. Turok 1 did FPS bosses really solidly. Just fast and kinetic enough to be threatening but not overwhelmingly so, even with literally a T-Rex chasing you down. Jeep and Campaigner were vicious. It was great. Goldeneye usually didn't do bosses, since enemies were generally limited to Human types, but errybody that played it remembers the damn antenna cradle.

So clearly it can be done but at some point some dumb fuck dev sits down and looks at Songbird in Bioshock Infinite and says "ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. that's A LOT of work!"

>>378605898

shit mmo-tier

>>378605193
This kinda, only shooters can still theoretically have good bosses. Just look at the Metroid Prime series, Resident Evil 4 through Revelations 2, Vanquish, Kid Icarus: Uprising, and Splatoon. Haven't played DOOM 2016 yet but I've heard good things about that as well.

Shooters having shit bosses is just way too steeped in Western game design philosophy. They're uncreative and unskilled at crafting good boss fights in shooting games so that's probably how the genre will stay.

Is the Cyber Demon in Doom 3 the worst FPS boss ever?

>>378604259
Dying light had some good bosses, that colosseum fight thing was great.
But then they go and make the final boss a QTE.

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>>378611208
>QTE

>>378612414
It made absolutely no sense whatsoever and it was terrible.

>>378613339
How's the game itself though? I generally tend to not like zombie theme, so usually avoid games with them.

>>378604259
FPS - just like fighting games - tend to favour symmetrical combat, where the player and the enemies have the same skillset. That's why boss fights tend to be underwhelming.

However, I'd also argue that boss fights don't fit in every type of game. e.g. if you're playing an FPS going to realism it would make little sense for bosses to survive a fuckload of hits to the head.

>>378613614
Pretty great, it's a good parkour game, movement is great, world is beautiful.
Going out at night is genuinely terrifying.
Haven't finished the following expansion and it's pretty different from the base game, less parkour more drive around and do shit.

I pirated the enhanced edition but it's probably worth a buy.

>>378613614
Dying Light is the shit. It was by far the best western game of 2015. Only beat out by MGSV and Bloodborne imo. Dying Light is super ambitious and actually manages not to be boring, janky euro-trash.

They're not really too much different from linear jrpg bosses, they could be great with buildup, theme, characterisation and distinct in gameplay with some kind of limited gimmick tied to health, damage, healing or some other quirk of the game. FPS games lack in the preceding, non-gameplay features and do they are underwhelming.

>>378614840
>super ambitious
It's literally urban dead island with a straight steal of nu far cry features, it's safe as fuck

>>378604259
wtf is that!?

>>378605193
That's as true as saying that all hack n slash bosses are just slice them until they die. It's all in how you design the boss fights and the game mechanics. A fight with 2 bosses that move fast in unpredictable ways and have a wide variety of projectile, aoe and melee attacks could be fucking awesome for example.

>>378605898
First FPS bosses in a long time with actual boss mechanics. Huge stride in the right direction, if a bit too easy (or at least Cyberdemon and Spider mastermind were easy).

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>>378608828
it was a swing and a miss. More or less the Yhorm the Giant or FPS games. There's many ways to give a boss a gimmick, but when that gimmick is "only this weapon can hurt it," things get boring fast.

>>378617274
You're obnoxious. Stop posting.

>>378605860
only the spider mastermind is bad
>>378605898
pretty bad and easily abusable just like the game in general

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Because shooters by definition are severely constrained by design.

There are very few areas from which these games can grow depth -- gameplay loop starts and ends at "shoot that pixel!".

First person shooters are even more ridiculously constrained because on top of being crippled by focus on shooting they also limit view AND force player to make a choice between actually seeing where he's going or shooting what's attacking him -- you absolutely can't have both.

Because of shooting working from afar there is also little to no need for advanced mobility options -- and in case of first person perspective advanced mobility options are basically blind jumps most of the time which renders any attempts to bring depth to movement moot.

The only 2 shooters worth paying even a cursory attention since Doom were Splatoon and Vanquish -- because they tried to give more importance on movement.

>>378617620
explain your low energy aggression

>>378618306
You get boring fast when your gimmick is "it's boring because I say it is"

>>378618274
This game looks like gears of war but fun.

>>378604259
Western boss fights in general are absolute shit.
They treat them more like a normal enemy just with larger health and more bullet sponging.
There's no learning curve to boss fights like in Souls or DMC you just spam your attacks as hard as possible in order to win.

>>378619349
>dmc
>dark souls
>learning curve
bad examples, though BB and DeS make the cut
DMC is piss easy unless you care about the style system, and even then I find it merely tedious

>>378619554
>DMC is piss easy unless you care about the style system.

Nah, DMC1 and DMC3 are legitmately tough games.

I feel like FPS games could still have plenty of mechanics in a boss fight. Like say, Borderlands. Shit writing aside, it clearly shows you can bring in skills, passives, and item procs into a FPS and then introduce actual boss fights with various mechanics to overcome while, well, shooting it to death.

I think it's not really a case of inherent constraints of an FPS, but limited examples. Even though we've had FPSs for a very long while, there are still ways for a FPS game to surprise us in the coming years.

>>378618901
Was the Doom 3 Cyberdemon fun to you? Was Yhorm any fun? Was waiting for either the soul cube or the storm ruler to get going fun to you? Wouldn't you rather be able to just actually fight the cyberdemon rather than grind through some worthless imps to power the cube before wimpily throwing it at the boss? Wouldn't you rather be able to attack Yhorm a little faster and not wait an eon for the clouds to start forming?

I like my bosses not bogged down by their gimmick. I understand liking variety, but "use this weapon to only" feels very limited and constrictive. Try to see why others would like/dislike things rather than mumbling angrily at them.

>>378605898
They're exactly what boss fights should be and are the type of fights you think of when you think "video game boss fight"

>>378620532
Shut up bitch, yhorm was shit because it didn't have the buildup and mystique of the sky king, and the area was too small, and the gameplay too easy to make obtaining the stormruler tense or difficult. Try to take the dick out of your asshole, gameplay is not always as important as other features. You might have realised this if you didn't read a guide and watch several youtube playthroughs before you played a game. Cyberdemon was fine. Yhorm was not because he was rehashed from a superior iteration without retaining the supreme features of DeS. Fuck you if you think that the buildup to bossfights are insignificant.

>>378605898
Could be better but I enjoyed it. Miles ahead of Doom 3's boss. Run around the rosy shooting imps in one shot with a shogun for the sake of charging the cube to attack Cyber Demon, Repeat 3 times.

>>378605898
DOOM16 bosses were ok, I wouldn't go as far as to call them good, but certainly fucking better than most western boss fights.

Way too heavy on the telegraphing though, made them super easy.

>>378620532
I just want devs to try and figure some <<interesting>> gimmick instead of another boss fight. I want to like Yhorm, but yeah, it is kind of lacking.

>>378621059
The Hell guard boss fight/s when the two of them started to appear was pretty good at distracting you from the telegraphing attacks.

I might be the only person that likes Nihilanth boss fight. But I actually think HL2's bosses were better generally speaking, especially in episode 2 if you count them as bosses. Fighting the helicopter with only a gravity gun, fighting the two antlion guards, and the final strider fight were all pretty memorable.

because games have a hard time balancing bullet sponge bosses with "shoot twice and he dies" bosses.

Destiny would be way better if the bosses had half health but more gimmicks and adds and shit so you're constantly changing tactics and priorities.

>>378605193
>>378605860
Except first post ISN'T best post.

He's objectively wrong. In the modern age, boss battles in FPS games have achieved a lot. More recently, in Doom 2016, you had the few bosses in it which were pretty good to amazing.

The boss fights in Serious Sam games while simple are still amazing for their scale, there's the boss fights in Turok 1 and 2, the boss fights in Shadow Warrior 2013, and hell, even Bulletstorm:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUOcUOkIJhM

As usual /v/ is full of fucking morons that don't play video games.

>>378621059
>hurr I'm an autists weeb

Yea, we get it.

>>378622347
>Saying japs are better at designing boss fights is now weeb.

Fuck off.

>>378622347
>shoot obvious weakpoint
>move around, admire visual effects
>shoot another weakpoint
>you win
nice boss battle

>>378621021

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Hello?

>>378622857
>>378622534
>use ultimate galaxy-ending special move on final boss
>use it 3 more times as your character sits there for his turn
>yay you win

nice boss battle

>>378621290
I'm starting to think they'd make a fun early level souls boss, if you think about it.

>>378622957
epic

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>>378612414
>game does QTE's
>They are actually fun and hype as fuck

is Asura's Wrath the only game that did this

>>378622857
>shoot obvious weakpoint
>move around, admire visual effects
>shoot another weakpoint

You just described every single Japanese shooter's boss battle.

>>378621171
><<interesting>> gimmick

that's the tricky part indeed.
When's the last time you fought a boss whose gimmick was fresh and interesting? I honestly can't think of many who weren't just my first encounter with the type setter.

>>378623060
other genres have changed the formula and used unique mechanics that only work in said genres. you're oversimplifying it, which makes it obvious you don't play videogames at all.

>>378623145
hello?

>>378623207
>you're oversimplifying it, which makes it obvious you don't play videogames at all

Oh, so does that mean I can say that to you now since you're being a cry-baby who's oversimplifying things because he doesn't like that I threw his retarded argument out the fucking window?

>>378623068
Thinking about it, yeah.

Honestly, most boss fights that uses two enemies are great.

>>378623321
feel free to show me one boss fight in an fps that doesn't involve bullet sponges, qtes, shooting a weakpoint, or 100 other universal mechanics in fps games

>>378623397

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvTAZL-Fz9A

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>>378604259
Other genres potentially aren't as limited; they can impose different limitations and control schemes on the player to make more varying interesting boss fights that are designed around those particular mechanics. A red-blooded FPS can still have alright boss fights, but it feels a bit more mechanically limited with what you can do with them.

>>378618927
That's Vanquish.

>>378623487
Hell guards (All phases) > Cyberdemon Phase 2 > Spider Mastermind > Cyberdemon Phase 1

>>378623487
>wow i move around and shoot gun
nice.

>>378623610
That's a better boss fight than just about any soulsborne boss though.

>>378623610
It's more about how you move around.

FPS' strength is movement and boss fights should reflect the movement mechanics the game lays out.

>>378623610
Get some better b8, man

>>378604259
the fuck is so good about ANY jrpg boss?

>>378623397
>100 other universal mechanics in fps games

What did he mean by this
any boss fight should operate on the mechanics established by the game

We should compile a list of things that makes a good boss fight in each genre. Easy one to start off with

>Hack and slash
The boss has the same moveset as you.

>>378624026
music

>>378624026
In FPS the bosses don't have hitscan detection shit where you take unavoidable damage I guess.

Well as we see with DOOM16 FPS has a lot of potential for bosses, but can slower paced shooters also have great bosses seeing as how your movement is limited?

>>378623397
>>378623610
>I move around and slash the boss with my sword

Wow, Souls has such deep, complex, thrilling boss fights! Wow!!!

How about you find me a metroidvania where you don't use any items, weapons, or optional side missions to defeat the boss! Yea, that sounds like fun!

>>378624180
>In FPS the bosses don't have hitscan detection shit where you take unavoidable damage I guess.

They should, but they should also be required to have a way to notice when they're about to use it so you can take cover.

>>378624191
order of ecclesia has a boss where you have to absorb the essence of their soul to defeat it.
i'm not even a soulsfag.

>>378623397
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UCJHOMXRLQ

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>>378623397
>show me a boss fight in an fps
>without fps mechanics though

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>play ranged class
>use tps cam
>suddenly tps game with good bosses
Play Ranger today!

>>378624315
>order of ecclesia

And Quake has a boss fight where you have to platform onto switches which activate electrical rods that eventually kills it.

What's your point? He was referring to the fact that his demands were arbitrary, nonsensical, and generally stupid.

>>378623995
The music you fucking pleb

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWE0nlhpdq8

>>378623151
That spiderman game

>>378605898
Feels like they were inspired by Ys and it shows.
Cyberdemon is basically Pictimos.

>>378605898
I felt they were appropriate. Big room, banging music, rip and tear.

>>378624654
0:33 reminds me of this one fucking JRPG's OST, which was literally batshit insane....It sounded like a thousand different instruments playing at the same time....Can't remember the name of the track for the life of me, "something Market".

>>378608024
>Resident Evil
resident evil boss fights have good concepts, interesting setups but suffer from massively overinflated hp and lack of a proper way to tell if you're making progress

In RE 6 for example, even though there were plenty of okay bosses, the fact that you could never know when it was time to actually kill them and when the game wanted you to run away was super annoying.

In RE 7, the game makes it really obvious when it's time to throw down instead of running, which is good, but bosses took so much fucking damage to die, and there was no feedback telling how effective your chosen weapon was.
Like I beat the game and I still have no idea if the flamethrower did more damage than the shotgun or vice-versa.

>>378619349
God of War bosses are cool, but yeah, you can cheap them out with any attack or magic.
Lords of Shadow bosses were cool too but had the same problem as GoW (except for fucking Pan :()

>>378606124
Like what? Name it and chances are its been done and sucked.

>>378624803
Why, because of the spikes which form a narrow corridor, which has been done in games before Ys Origin?

>>378621021
>gameplay is not always as important as other features
>in a doom game

u wot m8

>>378606124
>Infinity Ward are just the least imaginative people on the planet

FTFY, since I know you didn't want to sound inbred stupid, knowing that games like BLOOD, Heretic, Turok 2, and Half Life exist.

>>378604259
Vanquish bosses are alright. Resident Evil 4 to 6 too. I also liked the ones from Lost Planet 1 as someone said. Portal has a good one. Borderlands were good even if not extraordinary. Jet Force Gemini is old but still remember it being cool.

Does someone played the order? I think I've read it had good gameplay but don't know if it had bosses.
Any Metal Gear counts?

>>378625113
He also has a similar air slash move and he also launches a delayed air attack that covers entire screen, only with rockets instead of laser beams.

>>378625146
Doom 3 is not a doom game

>>378625426
it has doom in the name

>>378625369
>he also launches a delayed air attack that covers entire screen

That's in so many fucking games.

>He also has a similar air slash move

You mean the air slash that you have to duck and jump over? Yea, that's not similar at all actually.

>>378624458
what game

>>378604259
Japs don't make FPS.

>>378625514
That's one of the few things it has to do with Doom.

>>378618274
What's with this meme? They are not severely constrained by design, that's absolutely ridiculous. Pointing and clicking at a pixel by itself offers a lot of depth because there are fuck ton of different pixels you can point to, making them significant via different destructible body parts and emphasizing that element would already give the games a fuck ton of depth even if it's just a rail shooter. But then you have a huge variety of different possible weapons to play around with and all sorts of different movement mechanics you can think of. The boost from Vanquish could just as easily work in first person for example (or even better because the game would have to ditch cover and focus on fast paced shooting even more), as could wall running, grappling, wall jumping and all sorts of other indepth movement mechanics that make for fun dodging. You could even create combo systems for weapons if you wish, just make them more or less effective depending on the distance and allow you to switch between primary/alt firing modes to create different effects like parry, stagger, launch, guard break, keeping enemies in air, etc.

>>378625834
>named doom
>has guns
>is an fps
>stars a space marine

seems pretty doom to me

>>378625983
>No speed
>Mostly dark hallways
>No satisfying gun
>starts not doomguy
Even when you think of Doom 3 as a survival horror spinoff in the franchise, at least for me, it still fails. It's not tense, not scary, not fun.

>>378626241
It's a shitty game for sure
but it's still doom

>>378604259
>Why do bosses in shooters suck compared to bosses in other genres
It's mostly about the animations. Bosses work best when good animations are involved.
FPS is a western genre and is more likely to have bad enemy animation because animations are a low priority in the developers' minds because they don't need to animate the player character. Then they just start relying on mocap for realistic shooters, throwing all manual animation out the window, they barely even need to hire anyone who have animation skills. On the other hand if the game is BUILT around lots of animation then the bosses will be more likely to be good because there will be talented animators involved.

Japan loves third person. Japan loves animation. Japan loves bosses, in fact it's probably a japanese concept in the first place. They're also not afraid to make a game "video gamey" (as a faggot would put it). That's why their bosses and those genres are better.

by the way DOOM 2016 was animated by japanese LOL

piss easy

>>378604259
>jrpg bosses
>good or really better than anything

Maybe once you remove the 95% of them that are just damage sponges, I guess.

>>378624942
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGJbuHUbw8k

?

Halo 2 and 3 had 2 ok boss fights 2bh.
2 had super powered Tartarus in the final level with his Smough hammer and 3 had the Scarab where you had to cripple it's legs before boarding it.

>>378604259
The final boss of Vanquish was kind of cool if I'm remembering it correctly

What are the typical signs of a shitty FPS boss?

>only has 1 attack
>never moves
>circle straving is all you do

>>378629698
>plays like a regular enemy but has souped up health

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KF2 has two bosses that can be ridiculously deadly and fun to fight. It helps that the AI isn't total shit and can respond to different situations.

Serious Sam:TSE had decent boss fights

>>378604259
Because you've never fought Nineball, faggot.

>>378629698
There are a fuck ton of hack and slash bosses that are like that.

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>>378604259
Goddamn, Soulsfags are fucking retarded.