Why did SS13 die?

It uses BYOND.

But it didn't..

>>378539889
because the world is a shitty place

>>378540476
this

>>378540512
/tg/ and /vg/ station are dying, all that's left is furry roleplay shit like Baystation and Paradise

>>378540654
Oh shit there's furries in Bay?

BRB ss13

>he doesn't play on Lifeweb

>>378539889
Endless drama
Slow development
FUCKING BYOND

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>>378539889
Because of all the autists that think rules set by anything but the current match's guidelines are more important than having fun.

>>378540875
>paying $15 to play on some Russian autist's playground

No thanks

>>378539889
Because griefing, the only sure fire way to have fun, is now a perma ban in any decent server

>>378539889
there's more players now than ever

unless you mean specific branches, and that's because stagnation and circlejerking

>>378539889
Because nobody returns to ss13 after getting into lifeweb

>>378539889
1. BYOND
2. High skill floor (ie harsh for noobs)
3. Only certain type of people find it fun
4. Worked on for free
5. Griefing

>>378543860
Griefing is what keeps the game fun, anon

Everyone in this thread is wrong.

The real answer is: everyone learned all the secrets of the game.

Yep. That is it.

Now that everyone knows everything, all the servers are basically powergaming and TTT.

Unless you can find 50 new people willing to start playing the game, you won't ever have the 2011-2012 SS13 experience again unless a new Lifeweb comes out.

>>378540476
This.

Game has great potential. If it was on steam or hell even origin it would get more attention and more love.

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>>378539889
because as time goes on byond becomes less and less fucking tolerable

the moment this shit got a following competent coders should've immediately jumped ship to another platform

I haven't played in years solely because I'm fucking tired of byonds shitty netcode and fucking 2001 ass interface

>>378544448
>t. greytider

>>378539889
reddit

>>378539889

Awful client.

Has anybody else made something similar that's on Steam or some other game distribution service?

>>378540476
>>378540905
>>378543860
>>378544967
t. literally zero technical knowledge

BYOND does everything SS13 will ever need. There's no lag anymore and you can run a server in 60 FPS with no lag if you want to.

>>378544926
It's always reddit

>>378545145
As far as I know all off-shoots that were inspired by SS13 either went nowhere or are currently in the process of going nowhere.

>>378539889
The /tg/ server is basically Counter Strike in space

The /vg/ server has a bunch of discord twats in charge of metagaming

Rest of the servers are complete shit

Space Station 13 doesn't need a big community. It's prefect as a small game not yet full of fucking normies. The shitty engine deturs anyone who is a fag. If the community gets bigger this game will be ruined.

>>378544516
Lifeweb has plenty of undiscovered secrets thanks to lack of wiki and the communities culture of no spoonfeeding

Why does /v/ hate roleplaying in this game so much?
This is the only community I know of that hates servers where it is enforced.

>>378545556
becuz roleplaying is for figs lemao

i got the urge to play ss13 again so i installed byond and joined yogstation (which was to my mind a medium rp server) and joined as janitor since i just wanted to get used to the awful controls again

as i start heading towards medbay to clean up the blood, the mime slips me with a banana peel, steals the garbage bag that i dropped and started pulling my janicart away at the speed of light

i instantly remembered why i stopped playing ss13, faggots that just grief for literally no reason and honestly this is what kills it

>>378545556
Because I should be able to RP a killer but I'll get banned if I do it. Fuck your meta.

>>378545556
Because /v/ is a bunch of shitters that don't mind playing a round where everyone just murders everyone for the 1000000000th time in a row because "dude basic game rules are for fags lmao"

Speaking of Lifeweb, I'm one of those people that play migrant all the time.
It's the right balance between comfy and chaos living in the caves.

>>378545819
You can do that when you get antag

>>378544516

This.

Even trying light RP is impossible, because everyone is just fucking valid hunting

I've only ever played /vg/station and I've played for since I think last November.

What other servers are worth trying out and how much faggotry goes on on said servers?

>>378545973

i cannot fathom how anyone would enjoy murderboning people if they are past the age of 16

you kill maybe 2 people then get permabanned, or you just ruin the round for everyone on the server if you are free to kill people

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>>378545556
Hard RP servers contain the most degenerate autists on the internet. Every interaction is cringe and the round takes hours because they decide to hold a court case over a fucking fist fight in the bar. The only way to have tolerable RP is to visit servers with a good balance between gameplay and RP which /tg/ and /vg/ used to fall under until metafriending and admin drama became the norm and now everyone is displaced because literally all the servers are irredeemable shit

>>378545973
>dude its because im CRAZY

fuck off idiot

>>378546289
There be none. /vg/ used to be decent, but it's turned into shit.

>>378545993
I should be able to do it regardless

>>378546521
You're playing as a normal employee in a space station. Unless you're an antagonist, you have no reason to commit murder.

>>378546521
Everyone else thinks that too. That's why you can't.

>>378545784
I'd suggest bashing him over the head a few times with a fire extinguisher to teach him a lesson but that might get you banned depending on the server and whether he's part of the 'metaclub'.

>>378546521

>dude why i cant i just kill people and ruin the game for them???

unban william now

>>378546940
Never ever.

>>378546815

considering i already got permabanned once from yogstation like 2 years ago because i put another mime (what the fuck is it with cancerous mime faggots) into critical because he was pretending to be the cmo and stunning and handcuffing people and locking them into the patient rooms in medbay and NONE of the admins gave a fuck that he was doing this so im 99% sure the guy was a friend of the admins and that is just fucking pathetic

>>378546654
I finally snapped and went crazy BAM

I always thought one of the worst things about some of the servers, specifically the ones that were less RP intensive, was that nobody went with random names. Every game you'd see Bigpenis McFuckface running around doing the exact same shit with the exact same people and its all just one big circlejerk metagame-fest.

>>378547094
I believe "MY CHARACTER IS CRAZY!!11" was specifically listed as a shit excuse to do so, actually.

>>378547164

i think that true high rp servers are worse because it attracts utter turbo autists and then you have paradise station which is full of disgusting fucking furrys ERPing in the bar

because byond cant connect to any servers on 90% of computers

>>378547225
And that's why the game has gone to shit, thanks, Reddit

The only joy left in this game is grade a clown grief on public servers or becoming a turbo hero as security, 1v12ing all of a cultist uprising and such.
Robust has two flavors.

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>>378539889
Every server I have ever been a regular on has eventually succumbed to badmins, and I've been playing since around when goon was on donut. I stopped playing after /vg/ started going downhill, it was the last decent server. It's a shame, because the game is fun as hell.

>>378539889
meta gaming

byond

power crazy admins

>>378547305
Yeah both ends of the spectrum aren't so good. Servers with a happy medium between the two are where I've had the most fun.

Also every fucking server has powertripping admins no exception.

byond horrible engine

>>378547460
>dude why can't everyone just kill each other lmao

this game clearly isn't for you faggot

>make invisible wall as mime
>get banned

Barotrauma is pretty good when you have 8-12 people. Any less makes the sub feel a bit empty and any more means there there is pretty much guranteed to be a griefer and you might not be able to find an oxygen mask or diving suit when the sub finally goes to shit.

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>>378547941

>>378548016
>make invisible boxes to trap people as mime
>get banned

>>378539889
Because it's on BYOND and all the admins take rounds waay too seriously

Why is it always retards who have copped a perma for minor ic crime and/or murderboning that make these crybaby threads?
Really precludes me to pondering...

>>378541058
Once you play it, you never go back. Its worth it. But you'd probably get banned anyways.

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because people like this exist

>>378540654
>roleplay shit
Thats the only thing that SS13 is good for.

Paradise is pretty shit but Baystation is good.

>>378547579
when did VG "start" going "downhill"

>>378540875
>Lifeweb
How the fuck do you join anyway. Cant find shit on it

>>378540654
Tg and Vg arent dying.

Maybe don't get perma banned or be a literally who

>Contact an admin to clarify if a robot has violated the NAP meaning I can kill him
>Admin isn't sure he did not violate the NAP.
Having legitimate cause to kill people is way better than murderboning.

>>378539889
Its quite the opposite of dead.
It has some problems, but high RP servers are fun to me.

>>378544516
>the servers are basically powergaming and TTT.

This is why I quit. There's no point in trying to do your job when a bunch of powergamers go around trying to win the round themselves.

I got so sick of people breaking into my areas, taking my shit, and then telling me I'm not doing my job.

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>>378545784
If people grief me I just bash their head in if it gets too much.
I don't give a fuck if I get banned which luckily has never happen so far.
I can just make a new account and have a dynamic IP adress.
I'm not gonna be the punching bag for some autists in an autistic space simulator, circle jerkers can kiss my hairy ass.

>>378544763
>the moment this shit got a following competent coders should've immediately jumped ship to another platform

They've tried, but nobody bothers to finish it. Our best chance at getting a decent interface went to work on Starbound.

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>>378549203
>Maybe don't get perma banned or be a literally who
>don't be a literally who
>being "someone" is a prerequisite to play

>>378545281
Don't even pretend that byond is a suitable engine for ss13. It has it's own forced built in lighting which is absolutely fucking shit, When any modern day TOASTER could do pixel perfect 2D shadows effortlessly. And since it has such an amazingly shit appearance and rendering system making a true shadowcasting lighting system is literally impossible.

It's a 2D sprite only engine that still manages to fuck up and not be able to render things clientside easily and efficiently despite this being the easiest rendering setup you could possibly have.

>>378544763
I play a bunch of rounds once a year every year. They have updated a lot of stuff. The UI being SLIGHTLY better now.

cat people, catpeople, lizards and waifus. Fucking disgusting.

>>378547941
>I require hand holding and a safe environment
>Posts on 4chan

Cancer

>he plays ss13
>he doesn't play the best byond game

it's not lifeweb

>>378540476

fucking this, needs to be standalone/on steam

Dwarf Fort BYOND game when

>>378550031
>Structure and order is the same thing as hand holding and structure is bad.
>Posts in America
Back to Anarchism for you, you commie fuck.

also the game makes no fucking sense

Gotta get my valids.

>>378550189
Go on then you boner, what is it

>>378550384
Eternia: Prologue

>>378550325
Ok post 95 baby. Do the world a favor and kill yourself.

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>>378550325

>>378550567
Disgusting, that game is awful

>>378550821
Hippity hoppity get off my property.

>>378550325
this is how faggots think

>>378550341
It's confusing at first and the control interface will bug you but picking something intuitive like Chef, Cargo Tech, or Roboticist will help you out. You can't really screw up too badly with them as long as you have a guide open to check.

>>378544516
Im new to SS13 and played 3
4 rounds as cargo tech so far. I really felt that people figured everything out about this game. Being new isn't fun at all.

>>378540654
>furry roleplay
Time to get back into SS13

>>378549465

but thats the thing, why would i bother playing on a server that allows this sort of utter faggotry? just a waste of time

>>378550273
Dwarf Fort gamemode for SS13 when

>>378551989
https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Lava_Dwarf

is there a game like ss13 playable with a gamepad?

>>378552358
i can't believe i missed this
i have a MIGHTY NEED

>>378552485
game is too complex, requires too much typing and too much precise clicking

>>378552651

Yes but is there something similar to it playable with a gamepad?

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>>378539889
Because the engine is horrible. The game is abysmal to play.
The stories centered around the game are more fun than actually playing the game.

>>378551941
It doesn't happen as often as people here like to pretend.
Also if you can't defend your department against some retarded clown or grey this game might not be for you.

>>378549203
>or be a literally who
>you need internet meme cred to play the game
This is why generals need to be purged

>>378539889
It's a game where griefing gets you banned but the only thing to do is grief or be griefed.

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/vg/ has been in funny wifey stagnation mode since june 2014. the staff doesn't care and neither do the players.

>BYOND is good enough
kek'd

>why ss13 dead?
its not but I still haven't joined /vg/ server cause all I see is drama and I don't have patience to deal with assholes anymore, even if they feel justified.

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>>378549626
It just works.

With all these lines of code /vg/station runs using 50% of the CPU at peak. The only thing SS13 would benefit from moving to another engine is better and instant atmos.

>>378539889
Nigga what? Its not dead at all

>>378539889
HONK

>>378555950
WOOP
WOOP

I AM THE LAW

>>378555482
How is it that literally every general on /vg/ turns into waifufaggotry eventually? It can be any game, but it always happens.

>>378556045
HALT!
SECURITY!

>>378556114
I'm pretty sure /rlg/ has never done so and it's been up for a very long time

come play hippie you faggots

>>378556261
/rlg/ doesn't get waifus cause thats relegated to enona+ and the main thread for that is on /jp/.

>>378556356
Elona+ is a garbage game to begin with
You can only play a slutty musician so many times before it gets boring

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>>378556501
>elona+ is garbage

>>378556623
No

>>378540654
>Baystation
>furry roleplay

Baystation became serious business military server

>>378556261
/rlg/ is deeply infested with those autists and their completely off topic and forced tumposting and other 2hu variants. It's awful.

how do i into lifeweb?

>>378557025
Get invited to the discord
Wait until the weekends

>>378556823
I don't know what you're talking about, I just looked at the current thread and nearly every single post is on-topic
You must just be overly sensitive

desu i think the goonstation server is quite fun.

>thinking into creating a SS13 wannabe game with a different setting but concerned with the amount of work

>>378557792
>but concerned with the amount of work
You should be. Building a SS13-like from the ground-up would take forever, especially if only by one person

>>378539889
The tranny coders ruined it

>>378556261
STALKER general has no waifufags either, because there's literally no women in the game. This is proof that women are the cause of all cancer.

>>378558175
>women are the cause of all cancer

Testicular cancer only affects men.

>>378558736
Epic my friend.

>>378558736
They cause that too.

>>378539889
Elitest Cucks combined with a steep learning curve.

same as fighting games arguably.
/thread

>>378559028
>post that shows you obviously have never played the game
>threading your own post
>"cucks"

>>378559028
>ss13
>steep learning curve
I agree the interface was obtuse but it was retardedly easy to get used to it

>>378559162
>he pretends that what I'm saying has no value because he doesn't like hearing it

fuck out the inbox goofy.

>>378559326
I actually agree with you, you just type like a fricking dummy

>>378559259
The interface is like smalltime, theres weird shit like using and combining items, and all the various things that you can do with objects besides just hold them and hit people with them.

Its not a game you would play with your little sister so don't be surprised when normies and even slightly ascended normies don't like it.

>>378559493
yeah well you ARE a fricking dummy

SS13 has plenty of players, but its issues number in the hundreds and no one is interested in fixing them.

Chief among them:

1) The game itself requires constant 24/7 micro-administration, forcing the appointment of administrators who micromanage every single aspect of the game indiscriminately and suffocate any kind of fun.

2) One of the game's primary fun things is utilizing all of the engineering systems to build cool things or accomplish large goals, yet rounds last an hour at most. Like building sandcastles right beside the waves, your fun creations will be washed away by the tides of the escape shuttle before anyone has time to enjoy them.

3) The game's development went sour a long time ago. Space Station 13 used to be a serious game. There were no clowns or poop or space carp or memes scattered throughout the game. It was a serious noir-style wolf among sheep experience. There was comedy, but it wasn't forced or even intended. The comedy came from the juxtaposition of bizarre unserious things happening on board the serious environment of a commercial space station. The HoP throwing mutineers out the airlock, the nuclear operatives stealing the Captain's genecode and disguising their entire team as him, the engineers ejecting the engine department and building their own mini-station around it, etc.

All of these things are funnier than things developers forced into the code specifically to elicit cheap laughs. And crucially, they do not ruin the atmosphere of the game like cheap gags do.

>>378539889
Was playing it yesterday. High-RP is still cancer. Almost got banned for doing my job.

>>378554269
>>378549563
Spotted the <100 connection toddlers lol

>>378559927
play hippie faggot

>>378559927
>doesn't want to rp
>plays an rp server
hmm

>>378559994
>have more connections than people who have been playing on the serb since it started
>have literally used the same character name for the past two years
>tfw nobody knows your name

>>378559994
Go suck an admin's dick, cuck. Follow the rules like a good goy.

It died the moment goons started adding "fun" jobs.
Like clown.

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>>378557912
This is why I thought on scaling down the interactable elements and number of classes at first and adding them over time if the game is successful.
Instead of a space station, it would play with horror movie tropes, so no need for mechanics, engineers, geneticists and chemists at launch.
Captain = Mayor
Security = Cop
Botanist = Farmer
MD remains the same
Assistant = Student
Traitors = Serial Killers

>>378559826
yeah real shit, theres no right way to play that game because the admins are either on full alert all the time or they let people run rampant, I think the best way to play that game is to get like a discord or teamspeak running and play with some people you know by name so you can at least call them out by name when they're being cunts but the game is too big for that at the same time.

>>378560172
>implying I play anymore

Stay mad griefcuck

Megurine Luka!
Caleigh Stall!
Trinity Prewitt!
Zalika Salib!

>>378560121
How many connections because I doubt it's a lot

>>378560032
Killing people randomly and blowing shit up is only fun for so long. Sometimes I like playing on servers where the crew acts like a crew.

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~Guide to Space Station 13 Servers~

1/2

-LOW ROLEPLAY SERVERS-

>goonstation

a closed-source, high quality, low-fat codebase with a touch too much coriander and two scoops too many aging yuppie administrators who get off on asserting their retarded liberal wills over tweens and young teens

>tgstation

an ultra-dense neutron star of compacted human feces. the codebase is a horrible mess where old important systems and interactions are neglected in favor of flashy new bullshit that completely breaks the game's tone, like 'devil mode' and 'magical monster hunter mining'. a convincing argument for why coders should be given zero power and should be 100% beholden to the users' desires. [they have literally tried to add auto-aim to the game after a coder died on his traitor round due to missing a lot](https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/pull/11786)

the atmosphere is almost as suffocatingly political as goonstation - despite claiming to be a 4chan server, 99% of the current userbase is from tumblr or reddit and saying 'nigger' or 'tranny' is bannable. this server is basically rome in its latest days, except you can't fuck little boys there (sadly)

>vgstation

a codebase with some cool features which don't excuse the fact that it's a literal dinosaur - years behind every other codebase and not getting any better.

this too is not your average 4chan server, i would say the primary distinction about the userbase of vgstation is that it's extremely 'namefag-centric'. there are a lot of persistent personalities on vgstation who love to kick up retarded drama and try to get each other banned whenever they feel their peers are soaking up too much of their attention.

>hippie

supposed to be the 'lax rules low-rp robustness' server now that nox is dead, yet it has a glacially slow movespeed like it's baystation. i have no idea why people play here

>colonial marines

aliens vs humans deathmatch with 200ms+ of lag, the worst possible codebase for deathmatch gameplay,

>>378560121
I seriously doubt that nobody knows you.
I've been playing on /vg/station for two months now and people certainly recognize me.
Last week I got scolded because I didn't know how to treat a plasmaman even though I played Medical Doctor so often.
Fuck non-humans, get out of my medbay you vermin.

Maybe you are just good at what you do and don't stand out negatively so nobody calls you out.

>>378560629
- (baycode), and, by a landslide, the worst staff of any space station 13 server.

it is headed by a brain damaged military veteran who doles out permabans for any criticism of the server, which is staffed by moderators who range between 14 and 18 years old and constantly spawn themselves in as a godmode class and kill dozens of humans and aliens whenever they're feeling bored. avoid at all costs. this is the closest thing to a Garry's Mod 'darkRP' server you'll find on SS13, inbetween the hormonal staff members and the laughable implication that this deathmatch could be called a 'roleplay' experience

-HIGH ROLEPLAY SERVERS-


>baystation, polaris, aurora

these are all exactly the same thing. the only reason they are even split up is because the primary recreational activity on high ``roleplay'' servers, drama, often leads to community schisms.

the codebases are ultra-casualized, if that word can apply here. the move speeds are lowered to levels that disallow intelligent dodging, the stamina and armor systems are adjusted toward statistical attrition so that the more heavily geared party wins 99% of the time, and in that other 1% where something narratively interesting happens, the losing party will batphone their administrator friend whom they are erotic roleplaying with in a Discord channel, at which point said administrator will inform you that it is illegal to harm furries on this server and you are no longer welcome here

some say that good roleplay is like a collaborative writing experience, like dozens of skilled authors all working on one great book. if you like books where there are 100+ flawless furry ego insertions all trying to be the main character, where there is no antagonist or villain plot because having bad things happen to the characters hurts their writers' feelings, and where reality is generally suspended in favor of constructing the ultimate velvety-gloved comforting social chat environment, you're in luck.

>>378560610
5k

>>378560743
You forgot lifeweb

>>378560894
Lifeweb amazing near the beginning, today it's a wretched hive of meta-cliques and bizarre pay-to-win shit. You can pay the creator $100 per month to spawn with all kinds of overpowered gear, and people do this.

As someone who used to be an admin for several servers, I think I can help shed some light here.

>SS13
>Dead

Literally just yesterday /tg/station had 93 players on one server and like 60-80 on the other. That's like, the opposite of dead.
Colonial Marines pulls in like 140 players all the time. SS13 is very much alive, however some servers with shitty communities, shitty code, shitty admins or all three are starting to die.

This includes high roleplay servers like Apollo Station, which rarely gets more than 9 players, and even then, all anyone does is sit in the bar and circlejerk, or Hippie Station, a shithole plagued by lazy, biased admins, notorious powergamers, and one of the absolute most whiny playerbases I've ever seen. Hippie is struggling to get more than 40 players at a time, I see it normally average around 25-35.

Even Citadel, the literal fucking vore station gets more players than either of these servers.

tl;dr, no, SS13 is not dead or dying, only shitty servers.

>>378561032
Oh gee, you can spawn with a 30 cm dick.
So op.

>>378560743
Only have experience with aurora. Avoid that place like the flu. They expect you to know rules they don't publicly list. And will ban you if you break them.

>>378561141
No, you can spawn as a 'crusader' class that has full steel armor and magical special snowflake abilities to sense cultists. Oh, and insanely good stats.

>>378560828
>>378560828
Little baby lol

I quite like playing this game when I have a gimmick in mind. Earlier today I was a stereotypical Japanese detective and had a blast following the pirate Mime calling him Luffy and asking botany for rubber fruit.

Staticnamers go home.

>>378561236
i've literally only ever seen a crusader once, and I usually play incarn

>>378561269
>roleplaying by referencing anime is good
>roleplaying by static naming and making an original character is bad

WHAT THE FRICK?

>>378539889
It's not on steam, BYOND is inconvenient.

The learning curve and skill ceiling scare away noobs.

Furries are too rampant.

Mods are cancer.

>>378561236
Crusader has no chance against a censor, or any gun for that matter

And he has stats that barely let him wear his armor. His sense is really flawed too, and it gives lots of false positives

>>378561269
>Wowie I'm going to pretend I'm a Japanese detective and make anime references!

Yeah you're autistic

>>378561269
I played a traitor round as an autist who hit on female members of the crew, got rejected, and then autolathe'd a bunch of speed loaders and went on a shooting spree
I even drew up my own manufesto

>>378559259
That's what the phrase "steep learning curve" means. It's steep - you do all the learning very quickly.

>>378539889
Most players initially try it out because they see the amazing stories that come out of it but upon trying to play they find complex and vague rules that vary by the server and constant warnings that they will be banned if they do anything fun. Essentially having fun in SS13 means never knowing if you're going to be breaking rules so players either get scared off or banned.

>>378560743
Despite your politically motivated nonsense about /tg/station and goon, you're actually spot fucking on here. The HRP servers are literally all the same, except sometimes they have different maps and different snowflake races. Outside of that, they're just the same server. Play one, you've played them all. I do admittedly play on HRP servers from time to time because shitting the place up is fun, and the slow nature is fun to chill out to sometimes. Very, very rarely sometimes, but still sometimes.

Join the ss13 discord https://discord.gg/VGS6yCB

>>378560629
Good old times when lighting wasn't dogshit.

>>378556823
It's just a couple of times per thread, faggot, and usually when the thread needs bumping.

>>378556114
Last time I checked /domg/ was "clean" too.

redpill me on ss13 and it's tumultuous situation

>>378562281
its fucking fine, people are just being niggers

>>378561486
>Judging how someone plays a retarded space station roleplaying mudd

who's really autistic senpai?

>>378562281
Read
>>378561102

Can someone explain to me or send me a link on how to connect or play Lifeweb?
I tried to do it years ago when it was new but server was constantly down or doing shady stuff.

>>378562523
You are, for keeping this shitty game alive

>>378562281
Basically >>378562514.
/v/ is crying wolf again even though nothing is really happening.

>>378562514
>>378562657
as expected

>>378562587
yeah, it's fucking nothing as usual

>>378562781
People would do this on hippie, they'd get banned and start shit and be like "SS13 IS DEAD, THE ADMINS ARE TRASH, EVERYTHING SUCKS, THE SKY IS FALLING"

Then get unbanned and shut up.

Now that Hippie is legitimately dying I think he's one of those fags trying to say the game is dead just because he's too shitty for even a containment server.

>>378541764
this!

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>>378541764
I miss the old ss13 where griefing and getting griefed was fun because everyone had the Dwarf fortress FUN mentality, now its just admin drama, my feelings and butthurt

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>>378561379
Making an original character is fine but I think people playing as themselves or not roleplaying in the least is a problem for SS13. Could be wrong though.
>>378561523
Honk

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I miss hayday 2010 tgstation

mai emershon here.. who remembers burer? also 2beard and dante

I miss starting massive station wide fires with atmos

>>378540875

>muh sekrit totally awesome club

Fuck that, /tg/ has given me enough gold for years as is. Like the time I unwittingly let a monkey criminal escape from the monkey pen and wreck the entire station

>I want a server with no rules! Bring back the good ol' days!
>Server turns into a deathmatch
>Le epic singularity in less than 8 minutes. So creative.
>Repeat every round

>Admins put in some rules to prevent deathmatch
>Various people complain. People leave and others fill their place
>The newcomers who enjoy the rules are more sensitive
>Make complaints about griefing

>More rules are added to compensate
>Cliques start to form
>Old and new guard admins start bickering as towards the enforcement of some rules
>Admins begin picking favorites
>Drama starts popping up everywhere when cliques and favorites collide in regards to enforcement

>Server becomes hugbox
>ERP begins

Every server. There's no winning.

>>378560629
>yet it has a glacially slow movespeed like it's baystation
Uh... why don't you log in to Hippie right now moron? You are definitely confusing Hippie with Paradise.

>>378564107
That was written when hippie had bay-tier movespeed, maybe it's higher now. Don't think anyone cares, Hippie is dead.

>>378564196
Hippie is dead you are right, but you are wrong about it ever having that move speed, I've been playing there since December of 2015. Also if you're interested in why Hippie is dead take a look,

https://hippiestation.com/threads/descending-the-death-spiral-the-death-of-hippiestation.6667/

>>378564313
>unironically posting a sarca forumpost

>>378564521
I am Sarca, and I am right. Please offer a counter argument.

>>378558175

Pretty accurate. Hell, if I play solely STALKER all day when not at work, I never need to jerk off either since I have nothing to arouse me at all. Feels good man

>>378549101
I can invite you
>>378563720
It's a real shame that one Russian drug addict coder make a more feature heavy, every week large updated, artistically consistent with great sprites heavy RP server with ZERO rules where RP is forced only by gameplay and community server. Something that no other ss13 server with big teams managed to achieve.

Best part? He is also making more money.
Kys Americans.

>>37856496
When the frick is your server going up?

>>378563094
Servers like that still exist, it's just that more people want rp.
Go play on lifeweb, it has zero rules and admins never talk to anyone, even ahelp doesn't exist basically, only report for shittery.
Good luck grieffing though, you will get rekt fast.

>>378564968
It's like there's a difference in quality and commitment between having financial incentive or "doing it for free" or something.

>>378563965
Lifeweb

>>378564968

While I agree americans should collectively commit Sudoku, I disagree that anything made by russians is worth a damn. Also the theme is shit-tier compared to the pure sci-fi feel of "regular" SS13. Suck a dick, fag

>>378565614
Ever hear of Tolstoy?

>>378564601
>I am Sarca, and I am autistic. Please pay attention to me

ftfy

>>378565308
Only new fags have to pay 15$ once, and that's because they are cancer. Accounts created after 2015, fuck off.

That being said, consider the fact that he is actually an extremely poor, almost starvation mode druggie Russian in outer circles of Moscow that managed to get that whole thing going and his server was already better then others before he was getting good money. People are donating because he keeps his source secret and no one can compete.

>>378565697
Not an argument.

>>378565614
You haven't played lifeweb
Ss13 has no theme compared to lifeweb

>>378565697
Sarca is just a poor man's Solarious desu, Sad!

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>>378540875

>tfw pissed off an admin so much they crippled my characters so I can't play

Russians have thinner skin than I thought.

>>378539889
>playing /tg/station
>roboticist
>doing my job, making some neat shit, making a gygax as the parts come in
>chaplain asking for flight suit
>fuck no go ask the captain I'm not wasting materials
>miner already asked for a flight suit, was making them for all 3 miners and then one for myself
>greyshirt asks for flight suit
>no
>comes in because he has access for some reason
>Kevinz (an admin) was playing at the time, he was the only sec officer and was in robotics politely waiting for a flight suit
>greyshirt starts trying to push me down and shove me in the trash can
>what the fuck dude come on
>he grabs a flash and starts stunning me to put me in disposals
>officer is doing nothing
>pull down welding mask so he cant flash, grab a toolbox and start beating his shit because he's being an asshole
>officer just says to cut it out after I asked him to do his job and help me
>guy guns me down, kills me, gets himself a flight suit
>I get revived and healed in medbay
>say over commons the dude murdered me for no reason
>"He was building a gygax to destroy the station with"
>lolno
>ahelp it, Kevinz responds, says I wasn't doing my job
>k
>finish gygax, get grenade launcher, nuclear engine, and repair drone
>round was extended, so station was building DNA vault to win
>they needed two more things
>activate gygax's koolaid man legs and destroy DNA vault
>gun down entire station
>say "All the other kids with the pumped up kicks better run better run" over commons before I destroy the comms consoles and bomb the arrivals shuttle and r&d, then suicide in space blowing up myself and my gygax
>get banned
>ain't even mad

powergaming and admins that enforce it ruined the game.

>>378566050
Fuck off Kali Casterly

Is there a single remake that didn't turn into vaporware?

centration?
dead

primulus?
dead

some thing we got an xbox 360 teaser trailer years ago?
dead

that remake from the guy on the other chan?
fucking dead

what the fuck

>>378566050
Fuck off cancer

>>378565812
Neither is writing meaningless textwalls, but you don't have an issue with shitting Hippie up with walls no one reads, do you?

>>378566076
10/10

>>378566494
Not an argument.

>>378566226
I think their mistake is trying to copy and paste current year ss13 all on their own. That's one hell of an en-devour and it's no surprise they get drained of will in their projects and give up. Just slap together the skeleton and let the community fill in the rest over time like it was originally. We don't need full autistic fort building, genetics, cult & rev, ghetto tool crafting, and 20+ random event scenario buttons on launch. Just get atmos and lighting done, role rolling, and minor work on a station/ship. Let the autists fill it up over the next decade on their own time.

>>378566619
yeah because i'm right

>>378566791
Not an argument.

>>378566775
The fun part is that all of those remakes started with that same idea of just doing the barebones but then just fucking died for no reason admin help

>>378566352

>the elitist circlejerk is calling me cancer

LOL stay mad

>>378549203
Maybe the reason SS13 is dying is because people like this are elitists and scare away newcomers.

>>378567280
Telling people not to break rules blatantly to be permabanned isn't elitist though. Having rules isn't necessarily elitist. If you want elitism, look at Apollo, Polaris, or Aurora stations.

The game isn't dying you mongoloid.

>>378561102
>playing /tg/ station

LOL

>>378567140
>Being so trash that you get punished in a game with no rules
Are you a
Brazilian?

>>378567442
Oh, I was just commenting on the "literally who" part, I agree that following rules is important. I've honestly never played SS13, I have BYOND downloaded but I get bad feelings whenever I join a server, like some kind of stage fright at the thought of a public RP. It looks fun but I've just never manned up and just done it.

i'd play lifeweb but there is so much hassle to go through just to join the server apparently

lifeweb was amazing last time I played it but jesus christ, I wish it wasn't attached to those fucking russians that only allow non-RUs to once a week

>>378567659
Have account older than 2015 Feb , that's it

Used to play a lot on /vg/ and I still go back there every now and then, but I play mostly colonial marines nowadays. I just wish it wasn't so god damn laggy. The delays when using the interface is outright torture.

>>378567781
can't play then i guess

>>378567726
No, everyone plays only once a week, including Russians.
It's part of lifewebs pretentious theme that all good things must end and life has value only if there is death and pain.

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>>378556114
>Like Factorio, go to Engineering Games General.
>They've created a god of engineering called Clang and worship it.

>>378567948
you can if you give randy the jew money

>>378567948
You can pay 15$ to play if you are a new fag, but whatever.
I can't say if it's worth it or not but it's better than any byond game. It has complex fully working combat system with actually complex rpg stats, combat styles and moves like kick or bite, life system and organs are actually fully done to the point where you can dissect ever part of the person from skin to his meat and organs, survival mechanics and diseases actually work and make sense because of a working life system and that's just base mechanics.

lifeweb is decent, very nice roleplay happens without any intervention due to how hard it is to get in and how harsh the punishments are, plus there's a ton of depth and the theme is really consistent. however, it's really edgy and everyone hypes it up way too much

bay is probably fun if you enjoy legitimate roleplay and all the less-than exciting parts of it. (sitting around in your office, doing paperwork, etc) combat is pretty fucked too, you're supposed to do shit like threaten people and take hostages and all that, but sec or someone in your team usually can just take that as an opportunity to open fire while everyone else is typing

hippie is 2D space TTT

TG used to be like /vg/, but it was overwhelmed by people that didn't give a shit about roleplay and now it's just slightly above hippie in terms of RP. it's TG instead of /tg/ because they had officially separated from any association to 4chan

/vg/ is currently going down the shitter because of refugees from other shitty servers, distrust between coders and players, and horrible administration

the ERP servers are pretty much glorified furry chatrooms

did i miss anything?

>>378568964
/vg/ has good administration now

>>378569310
Go away Mai Pai.
Congrats u shit

>>378545281
>There's no lag anymore and you can run a server in 60 FPS with no lag if you want to.

I'm sorry what ? did you played the fucking game ?
Provided you're not in the US you are doomed to play on servers with shitty framerate, the game would run more smoothly on a fucking toaster.

Anyone who pretends that BYOND is merely decent needs to shut the fuck up.

>>378539889
Byond is hilarious, when you are banned they place a signature on your hard drive and from then on you can't play with it, you have to get a new one.

>>378570625
>not using CID spoofers
https://xom.party/unbanmeharder-1.0.0.0.zip

Have fun griefing all you want. Grab a proxy and new ckey and go to town.

>>378539889
Metaclubs on /tg/ and now /vg/ killed it

>>378571642
>/vg/
>metaclubs

hahaha

>>378569310
Didn't they just give trial admin to two horrible, horrible candidates just because they were consistent?

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>>378544516
17th post best post.

>>378572553
keep coping

>>378555568
that number isn't nearly as impressive if you remove all item/object/entity stuff

>>378572553
its just a polite term for circlejerk

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>>378566076
>tell a cool space station story that actually happened
>some autist says that it was impossible and could never happen
>explain why and how it happened exactly
>nope. things that never happened
>it was on tgstation, come play if you dont believe me
>LOL tgstation ive never played that shit and never will

I just want to share my stories without someone saying their experiences and stories are more valid than mine because they play on a different server

>>378574394
i want to hear your story anon

>>378539889
wasn't the game unfriendly to new comers?

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>tfw still banned from Paradise Station

>>378568964
yogstation

>>378559826
>want mainly to chill and do fairly long-term projects
>it's inevitably a wizard round wrapped up in 10 minutes or an AI that spergs out
>try an extended server, and it's full of some of the most hardcore circlejerking imaginable

>>378575105
It's fucking Paradise, Jesus Christ, play on another server.

>>378567635
I understand complteley anon, I had the same problem because I was worried about playing so badly I would ruin the experience for other people. Play as janitor and just focus on cleaning stuff until you learn more about the game.

watch a couple of online videos to learn how to interact with everything. There are a lot of weird things you can do.

>>378550025
The waifus can stay

>>378566226
im telling you there is a """""""remake""""""" in progress that's a bit different from the others, and its being approached in a way so that it isn't overscoped.

its based on idtech1

im set to do the campaign and maybe some misc feature development. its gonna be a multiplayer focused wad, but the campaign will serve to not only be a "tutotrial" for the game to teach you how to play many roles and perform basic tasks, but also deliver a ton of background.

i have a tendency to piss off the main man by talking too much about it/releasing internal vids, so i'm just gonna leave it at that. you might have seen webms of it before if you've been around a while.

i'm also working on a spin off for it based on a reverse engineered copy of Wasteland (the precursor to Fallout from the 80s) that ties into the campaign. here's a really early (very boring) snapshot i made of it some months ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkz13YYhYi0


satisfied?

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>>378539889
What is dead can never die!

>>378575953
fuck off metaclubber

>>378567781
BYOND account? Sheeeit my second one is from early 2003.

Played a shit ton around 2010-2013 and regretted that greatly due to failing two years worth of courses due to playing 24/7
When /tg/station dissappeared for a few months around 2013 I kind of throttled down my playing

>>378574810
well alright, heres the story in question. Its been a while though so details are sparce

>playing as assistant, all the jobs I wanted were full
>down in engineering for some reason, cant remember why
>hanging out with the mime
>comms died, but I didnt realize, just figured it was a quiet round
>go out into the hall with the mime and see mosins everywhere
>like, every space has a mosin or two on them
>FUCK YEAH lets fuck some shit up
>all empty
>well shit ill just carry it and hope to find ammo
>suddenly wizard
>OH SHIT
>*click click*
>oh yeah
>wizard pulls out a rifle
>shoots me in the chest, I dont have body armor so im slow from the damage
>with lightning speed, he throws the rifle away after one shot, spawns a new one in his hand, and shoots me again
>repeats this process until me and the mime are dead
>as he disappears, I catch his name
>"Second Amendment Wizard"
>I ghost around and watch as he finds people alone, guns them down like dogs, and disappears
>he does this until most of the station is dead, somehow no one could catch him. He is pretty robust.
>He kept the chef alive for some reason though. He was giving him intel or something
>all the wizard said to him was that he couldnt cook, and he'll let him live
>round is nearing its end
>comms is back up
>see in comms "FUCK YOU WIZARD IM COOKING"
>wizard almost immediately teleports into the kitchen and guns him down
>"im sorry friend" is all he said

I dont really remember what happened after that. It wasnt that good of a story compared to my slippery bird clown story or the one where I was chaplain and got tricked into helping the lings win storu, but that was the only one that got autists riled up

>>378576857
glad theres some other poor sap who got addicted to the point of borderline mental illness in the traditional sense

>>378562281
every server is turning into a competitive furry ERP secondlife land and nobody has the gonads to speak out against it

>>378564968
How is the communauty? that kind of server can be either good or bad depending on it and what you are expecting.

>>378566912
>>378566619
>>378565812
T
U
R
B
O

>>378540476
this and meta gaming, power tripping moderators who will ban you outright when you robust one of their discord buddies

>>378544516
this isn't true at all because all the servers have different rules for the jobs

>be captain on some extended RP server
>go around being a faggot and trying to get some kind of station olympics going
>no takers, but have a nice chat with the QM
>get rekt by Officer Beepsky on the way out
>manage to escape the cuffs and head to sec to figure out why they want me
>turns out the magistrate (a head of staff with jurisdiction over court proceedings) got teased by sec for being old and set them all to arrest, including me for some reason
>have a trial, HoS wants to send him to the chair
>admonish the magistrate for engaging in a serious act of sabotage, and send him to the brig for 20 minutes
>he insists that the proper charge for such an act of sabotage is at least 30 minutes
>fair enough then
>HoS butthurt as shit
>magistrate is taken away to permabrig, and I scamper off to sample the cook's new pie
>a little later get a warning that the station is entering a cloud of space carp
>head to the armory to reinforce our brave boys in red with the pest control
>HoS tries to tell me I can't take a gun from the armory because I have my own gun
>tell him that gun is a valuable antique not to be used except in the most dire of occasions
>spend the best part of an hour dashing around the station and killing about 15 carp all told
>buddy up with the female sec officer for extra tactical fireteam action
>eventually there seems to be a lull in the action
>head back to the armoury to recharge and replace the weapons
>HoS still pissy about the fact I took guns from a place I have access to
>Someone radios over a carp location
>"shit, looks like there's a little more to do"
>"If you don't return that gun, I will arrest you for theft."
>"Ok fine, you're the boss."
>try to yakkety sax my way out, get tazed in the back
>HoS stands over me, cuffing and stripping me with his subordinates surrounding him
>"see men, this is what happens when power corrupts"
>get thrown into perma

>used to be admin on /vg/station
>ended up leaving because the community became more and more shit
I don't miss it, it just became about drama and waifus

>>378545281
>plasma leaks
>game shits itself and becomes a laggy mess

>>378579780
Go back to factorio and dorf probe.

>>378580476
I'm not probe but I am talking to him right now

>>378560743
Now review the furry/ERP servers. I want to hear you tear into those.

>>378580532
Proofs

Also tell him to convince greymond/axx to play again.

>>378579668
>meet magistrate there, he's somehow still playing despite being left in perma for over an hour now
>pretty soon after, HoP gets thrown in too, tells us he volunteered to be perma'd in protest at my unlawful imprisonment
>within 5 minutes he is begging to be released
>whatever, there's no radio contact but an AI projecter is in perma, call up AI
>tell her the situation, insist she contacts nanotrasen and reports the hostile takeover of Space Station 13
>AI acts a little non-commital, but promises to send the message
>settle in for an hour-long brigging
>try ahelping a few times, get no response
>after an hour goes by, it becomes clear that no help is coming
>every now and then, a sec officer checks on us, and we get the impression from them that the station is going to hell without us
>demand to be released, no sec officer complies
>discuss with my fellow prisoners our situation
>a member of the crew has systematically eliminated all his superiors and peers on-board using unlawful imprisonment
>the station is essentially under rebel control
>while some sec officers have expressed concerns about the situation, none have acted
>they are all complicit in the rebellion
>the station status is unknown, but likely in crisis
>Nanotrasen are either on their way, or non-contactable
>order must be reinstated at all costs
>I will not be the captain who let his station fall into enemy hands
>gather together to come up with a plan

>female sec officer comes by
>plead with her to see reason, to release us and help retake the station
>she refuses
>magistrate and HoP suddenly start brawling in the perma
>I get clear from them and move to the door
>sec officer comes in, stun baton raised
>she trusts me enough to stand with her back to me
>a mistake
>I relieve her of her baton, and strike her head
>about to take another swing when the flashbang she was priming goes off
>everyone is down, she's screaming over the radio, it's a pure test of reflexes once we stand up

>>378549096
When faggots like you started whiteknighting.

>>378546150
Try Alium DeathTrap 13, its hardcore pure RP thats enforced

>Mai Pai was made an trial admin

How short /vg/'s memories really are.

>>378581450
Also xevonix and a guy that works for nasa.

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>>378566076
>do anything silly or fun
>get banned
it's these sort of stories that turn me off from this game. what's the point if the game is so full of salty admins?

>>378581527
>Yahir AND Mai Pai

Christ, maybe it is time to move on.

>>378580706
>I win, beat her bloody and we drag her into the toilet as two other sec officers come running down the hall
>both slip on a bar of soap hidden under a prisoner jumpsuit
>drag them into the toilet for beatings
>female sec officer manages to flee naked out the door
>finish off the two responders, and get kitted up in their gear
>find the female officer trapped in a double airlock without her ID, and finish her off
>go through into the main hallway of security with magistrate, HoP still getting fully prepped
>three officers charge us, we light them up
>it's a brutal brawl of tazers and harmbatoning, but the magistrate and I dominate after a good early salvo
>the hallway is coated with blood, corpses litter the ground
>emergency doors close on us. Doesn't matter, they're almost out of dogs
>suddenly hear a very load sound effect
>BANHAMMER
>no, not after all this
>sure enough, the magistrate collapses with a glazed expression on his face
>prepare for my own banning, but it doesn't come
>eventually see someone on the other side of the doors
>they are dressed in a black robe
>armed with an energy scythe
>ID tag gives a job title of Reaper
>"Hey there! Did Nanotrasen send you?"
>"I was sent here to judge you..."
>"Well okay, a bit late but"
>"But it seems that won't be necessary"
>"Oh yeah? Alright then, come and fucking get it!"
>emergency doors open, the man turns invisible
>manage to get a hit off with the stun baton, but it clearly doesn't drop him
>get downed in two hits, and quickly finished off

>>378581527
>nasa
stop this meme

>>378567280
This. Although I don't agree that it's dying I agree with the elitism that exists in it. I've played ss13 for a good 40 hours and know a few jobs pretty well, but the other day I tried something completely new and when I didn't do everything right in the first 5 minutes, the fucking ooc was full of retarded manchildren yelling "JOB BAN NOW".

>>378581738
The current headmin is insane but he is also smart. He knows these two wont make it past a month and is doing this as a "we tried it before, they both sucked so much ass they wi never get another shot", since he already stated they couldnt squad, do nothing and get admin. Those two dont have the people skills to actually deal with a single dindu, especialy xevo the netagrudge focused walmart janitor.
>>378581835
What meme, he does work for nasa, doesnt he?

>>378562117
>its only every thread
>faggot
>>378557286
>every single post is on-topic
>you must be sensitive

Found the shitposters.
>>>/rlg/178173958
>>>/rlg/178237229
>>>/rlg/178239865
>>>/rlg/178255451
>>>/rlg/178265463
>>>/rlg/178282875


This is actually a decent thread, there are usually over five times more posts like these per thread. No thread is safe, here or in /vg/.

>>378582446
>>>/rlg/
wew, what a fuck up

thread's nearly gone past 300 anyway

>>378581778
What a lousy end to a good story, bet the admin was the one playing HOS.

Reminds me of the one time I played captain and similar happened to me, slowly every single sec member and leadership turned on me when I did nothing wrong. They were running around with improvised weapons going "huehuehuehue" or whatever that shit is. Ahelped multiple times with no response.

Rounds ends with me in perma, they were mostly admins and regulars just having shits and giggles.

>>378539889
The game's not dead, it's just super stagnate since there's every round is a binary choice between:

>Go around stealing shit before valid hunting
>Do your repetitive job until something happens, then you valid hunt

The metagame has evolved to the point where the dominant antag strategy is just to sneak around and hide the entire round unless it's Nuke or late-round Cult, and since griff has been cut down to the point that any "natural" trouble leads to near instantly getting banned/jobbanned most rounds just come down to waiting for stuff to happen now.

Mind you it's still a fun enough game but it's a fun enough game where 90% of most rounds is waiting for stuff to happen if you don't roll antag or want to play babysitter as Sec/Heads.

>>378581778
>enter the saltiest deadchat I've ever seen
>"WHY DO YOU HAVE TO RUIN EVERYONE'S ROUND WOW YOU FUCKING ASSHOLE"
>tell the traitors to fuck off, and demand an admin tell me why the magistrate was banned
>"he just wanted to murderbone"
>"So what? He had an IC reason to kill everyone he killed. We had exhausted our IC abilities to resolve the situation non-violently, ahelped for about an hour, and then finally had a ten minute discussion where we discussed IC whether we should be willing to kill sec officers, in which we came to the conclusion that our mission was too important to risk non-lethal methods."
>"yh but he told me when i asked that he wanted to kill so i banned him"
>watch every last filthy traitor get cloned while our corpses are dumped in the morgue with the sec officers take parting shots all the way
>log off after calling the admin a stupid faggot, and probably get banned
>forget exactly which server it happened on so I can't even direct my fury properly

What could have been the best round ever, with a perfectly executed jail break and a trial for all the implicated sec officers after their cloning, became a badmin cutting off the most interesting thing happening on the station with an invincible edgelord.

>>378582642
It would make sense, really, particularly if the other officers knew he was an admin and didn't bother trying to move against him as a result.

>>378576935
I remember that wizard spell, it was fucking great but ridiculously OP like all the other wizard spells, so it really wasn't that bad.

>>378582915
Dang, it hurts to read that anon. Did you atleast get to play on a new server that doesnt suck a metric ton of dicks? If its a rp place that isnt as slow or worse than bay, a recomendation would be nice, been meaning to look nto playing a more rp focused server that isnt furry land or stupid as fuck bay tier.

whats the best guide to ss13 secrets?

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>>378582915
I think I just died a little on the inside after reading that.

>>378546390
This.
>citadel has /vg/ refugees on it
>people in /vg/ talking about playing other servers all the time

Time to move to barotrauma

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>/vg/ has /tg/ refugees
>lifeweb has /vg/ refugees including avada rin morena and bill and dizor

Feels fine to me.

>>378586287
t. nigger
t. faggot
t. fuck you
t. retard
t. shill
t. wumbo
t. consolecunt
t. pckek
t. videogamer
t. toon
t. xd
t. spurdo
t. riff raff
t. interior like fisheggs

How do I get into ss13?

>>378586778
refugees implies they've fled their server of origin

>>378586863
You don't.

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>>378586863
You rape the headmins dog to assert your dominance.

>>378545553
I don't mind lack of spoonfeeding but it took me like 30 minutes to figure out how to fucking drink water, and like 3 hours to find out what my Vice did because I hit random vice and got one that apparently required praying in church and whipping myself

>>378560629
>tfw I made this meadbay
feels good

>>378580635
Literally who
Also no proofs