And people say Dark Souls 2 has bad level design..

you just nitpicking nigger

>>378094959
>A fucking bridge and transitional area that isn't part of any dungeon or level

Made me reply

>>378095075
>>378095148
>Literally two bonfires 10 feet from each other for no reason

>>378095213
bro stop nitpicking. thats some minor shit

>>378095213
Blood borne had that also but everyone likes to pretend that game is better.

>>378095405
It looks like shit. They literally drag and dropped the boss arena there and forgot to take out the bonfire. Simple as that, they made no effort to make it blend in in any sort on way. It's not minor if its extremely noticeable. It doesnt make the game bad, but breaks immersion and reminds you you're playing a game with how bad it looks.

It does.

DaS3 also has some pretty bad level design at times, but not as bad as DaS2.

>The fucking Salt Fort bonfire that spawns you with two archers shooting you in the face
>The connection of environments that makes no goddamn sense (elevator up to Dragon Aerie, elevator up to Iron Keep)
>Multiple shortcuts in the area where you fight those Skeleton Lords that are made useless with bonfires right after it

Fucking stupid shit.

>>378095868
But you are playing a game. Why don't we add a hunger system, and a fatigue system. How about hygiene? Surely the Ashen One works up quite a sweat in his daily life. Or how about enemies stay dead forever, or how about they don't swipe through your iframes when traversing fog walls?

Fuck out of here with this bullshit.

>>378094959

>the worst thing ds2 bros can say about ds3 is that there are two bonfires close to each other.

Really makes me think

>>378096292
You are a literal shit eater, defending this fucking trash to the end of the world

>>378096292
what a dumb and inaccurate analogy
read a book

>>378095213
I'm pretty sure level design is composed of more than whether or not bonfires are really close together occasionally, though.

>>378096419
SHIT SOULS 3
>the most linear of all the games, even compared to DeS and BB
>nostalgiafag reference pandering out the ass
>rehashed characters
>Lowest Boss count after DeS
>Half the bosses are gimmicks
>Boss weapons shit as usual, despite having 4 games to draw experience from
>weapons in general are 90% quality based
>these quality weapons are also usually the best weapons in their class
>some weapons have retarded stat requirements where they don't even scale with said stats, which also happens to be quality
>armor system a horrible imbalanced mess
>the heaviest armors are the heaviest they have ever been in the series, while offering basically no additional defense over medium/light sets
>poise implemented in such a stupid way that only Greatswords and Maces get the most bang for the buck
>Some UGSs, GAs, and Hammers weigh more than entire armor sets
>Equip load is now done by VIT, which for some reason gives LESS per level than fucking dark souls 2
>Souls required to level up not adjusted for splitting stats into two
>a majority of the small weapons sped up to bloodborne speed, but some of the larger weapons have been made SLOWER and consume MORE STAMINA
>rolls cost next to nothing with extremely fast recovery and many iframes
>magic is garbage
>faith is garbage
>FP system is weird
>Too many useless fucking stats
>WAs are mostly just special r2s or powerstance moves copypasted with an explosion or two at the end
>MLGS is the worst its ever been
>awful covenants
>covenants are stickers which can be changed on the go
>shitty rewards
>Dragon form the worst its ever been in both aesthetic and practical sense
>community now filled with normies who hold hands with their SL 800 Friends to get through the game
>invaders have the most disadvantage compared to all other games in the series
>First DLC was a 1.5 hour long disappointment with a rehashed arena
>Second DLC had no end despite being the very last dark souls thing we'll get for the forseeable future

>>378096852
BTFO

That's dumb but it's not an actual problem of the game, it's just an absurd rigidity in following the games own rules.

> every boss makes a bonfire
> every level has a bonfire at the start

it looks dumb as hell, but it doesn't really have an effect on gameplay. Removing one of them wouldn't make the game any more challenging or interesting. The actual problem is the abundance of bonfires inside levels, Farron Keep us ridiculous.
> Road of Sacrifices
> Halfway Fortress
> Cruxifivtion Woods
> Farron Keep
> Whatecer the one in the middle of swamp is called
> Perimimter something

that's not even including the 2 boss bonfires. They are all so close to eachother it feels like checkpoints in a regular game and not at all like the Respawn points thee series is known for. If it were Demon's Souls, Bloodborne or Dark Souls 1 you would have had to make do with Halfway Fortress bonfire for the entire thing.

>>378097016
This is true, and I like Ds3 less than 2. It's such a minute thing to get worked up over especially when Ds3 has actual flaws. Ds2 shitposters are the worst.

>>378094959
>And people say Dark Souls 2 has bad level design..

Because it did.

>>378095213
>not using the Dragonslayer Armour bonfire for Prince Lothric
>inb4 needing to use the bonfire for Prince Lothric

>>378094959
Why is bonfire placement so fucked in every game but the first? I preferred what Demon's Souls did over how Dark Souls II & III did it. The levels themselves in 3 are fine, aside from maybe the first couple where there's very limited choice on which direction to go, which is unlike the previous games.

>>378095670
>pretend

>>378095213
Dark Souls 2 had this too. In the castle. They could have put a ladder instead or something.

>>378097273
Demon's Souls, Dark Souls and Nioh have evenly placed, balanced bonfires/shrines

Dark Souls 2 had a bonfire that was in a pit that was just low enough you couldnt get out of, somebody got the webm of this?

>>378097273
>bonfire placement in two
>that one shortcut in Huntsman's copse which lets you skip basically nothing
>there's no need for the shortcut anyway because there's a bonfire right after it.

>>378096676
You sound like a literal miserylord, like everyone yelling 'you'd eat SHIT on a PLATE if it was from -insert game developer-'
Your perfect flawless game will never exist, if it ever did

>>378097434
I know the one, in the lava castle place right? Yeah, they did that to make you have to climb the ladder and go through the PvP zone. They should've just put a fucking fence there or something, that pit did look retarded.

>/v/ loves open world shit
>/v/ suddenly becomes autistic when it comes to level design in Souls games
Pick one, hypocrites

>>378097256
People say that but what they often mean is that Ds2 had bad world design. The individual level design wasn't stellar but it wasn't horrible.
also the world design was only bad because Ds1's was so good

>>378097478
>will never exist, if it ever did
your poor english teacher

I tried skipping the boss bonfires once

>Beat boss
>No health, no bonfire
>Move ahead to the next bonfire
>Can't light it
>INVADED BY DARK SPIRIT
>My dramatic, climactic victory over the boss ruined by a fuckhead without even trying

I'll take the bonfires, thanks.

>>378096852

>nostalgia

I think youre just mad ds3 is a direct sequel to ds1 and that ds2 is a shitty spinoff.

>implying im gonna read all that pasta you call an argument

>>378097273
I miss the days of just having the archstone be after a boss

>>378097446
The shortcut was made so you could backtrack to the hex trainer, guess they later stuck a more convenient bonfire by him and left the shortcut in. Makes some sense.

Shaded Woods definitely doesn't, there's two within 30 seconds of each other for no reason at all.

>>378097613

Maybe. I have many, many problems with DS2, and probably the least of them was the level design. Thinking back on various points of the game makes me utterly, utterly disinterested in playing again, and shit level design is certainly part of that.

In all, it's not difficult to see why people see it as a bastard child spinoff

>>378097705
Knew what me meant though, at least my capitalization

I miss how simple the levels of DeS were
>three areas with a boss at the end and a fourth endboss at the end of the level
>levels are linear and separated, but you can go in which ever one you want
>no extra bonfires, just an archstone after each boss

>>378097757
Mad, disappointed, whatever you feel like calling it. I don't like that Ds3 adopted NONE of the good things about Ds2. I don't like that it wallowed in the story of Ds1 while providing very little satisfying closure to open ends AND created new open ends that no one cares about.
I don't like that it took the speed of Bloodborne and applied it to a series that previously had been far more diverse in the build variety.
I also don't like how most of the bosses suck, how few bosses there are, and how of those few, nearly half are gimmicks.

>>378097434
>>378097517

it was blocked off as an incentive to fight smelter demon since you get a bonfire half way through the level for beating him. otherwise you could just run through it all

a lot of the strange bonfire placements actually have a purpose for being there, like fast travelling to NPCs for their questlines

>>378097267
The shortcut design in the grand archives felt pretty awkward.

>Elevator that takes you to right after the crystal sage bridge
>Ladder to the top floor you can kick down
>Can reach the top floor using the elevator and ladder in about 30 seconds
>Another elevator that goes directly to the top floor 20 seconds away from the ladder you just kicked down
>Another elevator right before Lothric

>>378098165
PS4 remaster/port, with either new levels in the now fixed broken arch-stone, or even a all of the Dark Souls levels and bosses , when?

>>378098243

>the bosses suck

Which bosses from ds2 do you like? I feel like vordt is better than most of the bosses in ds2. I can only think of 2 gimmick bosses the dragon and the giant. What other gimmicks are you on about?

>>378097434
I actually thought that was a cool design choice, because it encouraged you to go through the PvP area. You can grab the immediate relief and rest at the bonfire, but by doing so you're signing up for a potentially very challenging area

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>tfw you enjoyed DaS 2 and 3 despite its flaws and realize /v/'s hivemind is one big bukake party, everyone is full of shit but tries to put an even bigger shit on someone else

>>378098782

I like both as well. Its just that ds2 bros like to shit on everyone else and we need to put them in their place .

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>>378094959
>BBfag says BB has the best level design

>>378098392
The bonfire you get after beating Smelter was a worse placement than the one in the pit imo, its far too close to the first bonfire. The one in the pit should have had a ladder to kick down after you make it around for the first time and that should have been the last bonfire before the boss. That's the thing I really didn't like about Dark Souls II & III, that the bonfires were so close to the bosses. Demon's Souls did it right imo, long levels with no checkpoints, just shortcuts. Proper resource management and good level design would have to have been both implemented by the developer and utilized by the player for success, Demon's Souls fails in that department because of all the grass you can carry at once, all they'd have to do is replace the grass with Estus, giving the player more or less depending on the length of the level.

>fast travelling to NPCs for their questlines
Part of what the first game did really well was having the player being able to traverse the easily and through memory without having to use the, in my opinion immersion breaking, fast travel which makes you feel a disconnect between the player and the world but I guess that's more of a preference thing.

>>378098708
Ds2 bosses I like:
looking glass knight, demon of song, smelter demon, Vendrick, Velstadt, Sinh, Ivory King, Fume Knight, Sir Alonne, lost sinner (pre nerf), giant lord, and executioner chariot (I know it's a gimmick, I don't have a problem with them when they are few and far between)

Gimmick bosses in Ds3: Wolnir, Ancient Wyvern, Deacons of the Deep, Yhorm, Crystal Sage.
Vordt is a trash boss, as is Oceiros, Champions gravetender/greatwolf, and Aldritch.

>>378099196
>>378094959
>A-team actually produces shit.

We all agree that DS1 / DS2 are good, and BB / DS3 is shit?

>>378099063
wonder why the Ds2 faggots shit on everyone else... what could it be...

>>378099338
To be fair, Deacons of the Deep is a better Prowling Magnus and the Congregration.

>>378099729
Look I'm not calling the prowling magus a good fight but there were 3 different enemy types in that fight and the order you got rid of them was what gave the fight the little bit of depth it had. The deacons are just a gank fight, every mob behaves the same until the pope shows up, and then every mob but the two big ones behave the same while the 2 big ones attempt to heal the pope so poorly that the best option is always to spam the pope to death. the gimmick doesn't add anything interesting to the fight.

>>378094959
>HOLY SHIT
>IS THAT STAIIRRSS?? LEADING TO MORE STAIRS IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION?
>JUST FUCKING WAIT TILL THOSE DS3 FAGS ON /V/ HEAR ABOUT THIS

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>>378099338
>You have a shit taste

Good boss fight

BB

Gehrman, The First Hunter
Ludwig, the Holy Blade
Lady Maria of the Astral Clocktower
Laurence, the First Vicar (Amazing soundtrack)
Father Gascoigne
Vicar Amelia
Orphan of Kos
Yharnam, Pthumerian Queen
Ebrietas, Daughter of the Cosmos
Mergo's Wet Nurse
Watch Dog of the Old Lords
Rom, the Vacuous Spider
Darkbeast Paarl
Living Failures
Moon Presence
Micolash, Host of the Nightmare
Martyr Logarius

DS3

Slave Knight Gael
Abyss Watchers
Soul of Cinder
Lothric, Younger Prince
Gundyr
Sister Friede
Nameless King
Dragonslayer Armour
Darkeater Midir
Pontiff Sulyvahn
Demon Prince
Dancer of the Boreal Valley
Yhorm the Giant

DS1

Chaos Witch Quelaag
Crossbreed Priscilla
Dark Sun Gwyndolin
Gaping Dragon
Great Grey Wolf Sif
Gwyn Lord of Cinder
Ornstein and Smough
Artorias the Abysswalker
Black Dragon Kalameet
Manus, Father of the Abyss

DES

King Allant
Penetrator
Old King Allant
Storm King
Tower Knight
Old Monk
Flamelurker
Fool's Idol
Phalanx
Maiden Astraea

DS2

Sir Alonne

>DS2 to be the worst in the series, the level and world design to be horrible also, boss designs and battles to be boring for the most part.

>>378097273
they were designed differently since there was no fast travel until halfway into the game
that forced them to place the bonfires more deliberately since players would have no option but to walk from place to place

>>378100302
>Rom
>Micolash
>Wet nurse
>Yhorm
>gaping dragon
>storm king
>phalanx
okay calm down there buddy, those are pretty objectively shit fights

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Oh boy, here come the DS2 babbies with their "DS2 is better than DS3"-bullshit.

>>378100302
>Chaos Witch Quelaag
this was not a fun boss

>>378100716
see >>378099475

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>>378100716
What about Das2

>>378100872
>That bonfire is in a pit! How am I supposed to get out? uhg idiot devs

>>378100872
I feel like people just don't remember DS2. If you go back and play it today you'd realize that it's beyond garbage.

>>378101206
objectively incorrect

>>378101206
I literally didnt really remember it.

This whole time I thought I only got like 1/4 of the way through the game but when I played it again and saw where I was, turned out I was near the end.

Weird desu

>>378101206
>play Ds2
>It's good
>not as good as Ds1
>this will only cause incessant, neverending shitposting on /v/
I saw the future the week Ds2 released

>>378097273
>Why is bonfire placement so fucked in every game but the first?

>bonfire in spider-chick room
>bonfire in front of Demon Ruins entrance, just steps away from the former
>yet another bonfire down in the ruins
>defeat Firesage for a bonfire that is also next to a shortcut to the first bonfire
>another fucking bonfire with Solaire after Centipede Demon

I think the worst thing about ds3 is there's no shortcuts where you hit a little snowball down a snowy hill and it turns into a big snowball that then plugs a gap in a broken bridge

>>378100302
>liking gimmick bosses
Sure thing, pal :^)

>>378102208
Well, the original did it the best. Unfortunately Demon Ruins was just a real shit zone, with a real shit boss. People say it went to shit after Anor Londo, but I think Demon Ruins is the only real bad part of the game, outside of Blighttown on consoles.

>>378102208
That's one unfinished area of a game, stupid to compare that to the entirety of other finished games

>>378102031
what caused the never ending shitposting is that from couldnt deliver on what they showed in the trailers, people dont like being lied to
and while i dont think ds2 is a terrible game, i think parts of it were actually quite good, its still not what they were advertising and many people wont be so forgiving for that reason

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>>378102385
As if anything in DS2 was finished.

Hell, just look at King's Passage with its countless graphical issues and even placeholder textures from DS1 they forgot to replace.

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>>378100716
Dark Souls 3 brought back what I had come to expect from Souls level design. The areas had a excellent sense of scale and use of vertical space. They felt like interconnected parts of an organic world, rather than the "video gamey" hallways we got with Dark Souls 2. I really appreciated that it took a page from Bloodborne, and divided every single bossfight into phases, with attacks and patterns that varied throughout. It made every boss feel unique and purposeful.

>>378102614
Ok, they're all unfinished games. Still doesn't make sense to compare the one area to an entire game

>>378102208
spider girl was a fire keeper and also a covenant leader so it would make sense that she would get her own bonfire
the one at the entrance to lavatown could have been a little further away, sure, but if youre not going to see quelaan then you wouldnt think to teleport to her bonfire, you would be looking for the closest one to izalith, and she is still technically in blight town

>>378102728
Ds3's world is too widespread to appreciate any interconnectivity it may have had. The various areas are all next to each other, except for Lothric castle. There are no shortcuts that take you to an entirely different area, I would hardly say it takes advantage of the vertical design the Ds1 pioneered.
Also fuck the idea that every boss fight should have multiple phases.

>>378103105

>Also fuck the idea that every boss fight should have multiple phases.

Yeah, I like it just fine in other games, but not Dark Souls for some reason. Maybe just because it's not what I've come to expect after DS1 and DS2. It's not a huge issue though, just a nitpick.

>>378103105
>fuck the idea that every boss fight should have multiple phases.
If I think of the bosses one after another, having multiple phases pretty much means you're shit out of luck trying to beat it in one try. But remember bosses are spread out, and you won't fight the same boss again until a new playthrough, I find it great for replays since I can easily forget a lot of a boss's moves

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>>378102728
Yes, I like for boss fights to have phases. I think it helps build tension and makes the boss fight feel unique instead of it being all the same.

>>378104026
Which is fine, but when nearly EVERY boss has multiple phases, they stop feeling unique, yeah?

Another thing I rarely see people talk about is phase changes that don't really add anything to the fight. Take the Curse rotted Greatwood for example. What does falling down into the pit do for the fight, except look cool? The tree has an arm now, but the arena is functionally no different.
The Dancer of the Boreal Valley will set the church on fire with her attacks, but it's purely visual. Standing near the fire doesn't damage you OR the boss, and there's never any structural damage to the church as the fight progresses. It's all for show, no substance.

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>>378102728
>>378104026
>I really appreciated that it took a page from Bloodborne, and divided every single bossfight into phases, with attacks and patterns that varied throughout. It made every boss feel unique and purposeful.

Yep totally.

Vendrick is a boring fight. Without a change in strategy, you are basically staring at the screen, unblinking, until you succeed at doing one thing enough times without a mistake. That is boring.

>>378099338

>>378095670
No one needs to pretend BB is better than DaS3

>>378097803
what the fuck happened

>>378104296
That's like saying every boss is hostile, the obvious choice is to kill them. They stop feeling unique

Not saying you're wrong, but get some better examples. Dancer pulling out two swords and doing faster attack strings is plenty of substance that you seemed to ignore for the sake of your thesis

>we never got a custom map maker for das
all i ever fucking wanted

>>378104764
I don't want to play your shitty maps.

>>378104730
The dancer example wasn't really specific to phase changes, thats my b. She'll set things on fire the whole way through, it just doesn't add anything to the fight.
And yes, her phase change does make the fight different. But when every boss before has had the same thing happen, I start to expect the phase change. They're less effective when they don't surprise you. The 3rd stage of Friede was great because it tricked you into thinking you did it, then pulled the rug out with a visually impressive attack that also was dangerous. When a similar thing happened with the Demon Prince, it was less effective.

>>378105140
no one's making you

>>378105140
>implying you could resist
just imagine
one room
thousands of crates, pots, and barrels

>>378105141
Demon Prince got me pretty good, since I thought the first phase was hard enough to beat for me

>>378094959
It's because of the boss bonfire spawn rule.

The next bonfire is used for a whole fucking area which is pretty cool.

Also Cathedral of the Deep bonfire use and level design is god tier.

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>>378104541
phases is always cool.

>>378094959
There were several instances in DaS2 where a level was just a 1+n corridors like Aldia's keep.
It unquestionably had some really bad level design.

>>378095213
Probably a cut game mechanic or some shit since there was talk about sacrificing for a bonfire.
Similarly to why every boss has 2 phases because of another cut mechanic.

>>378096419
There's a fair amount more to say about it but DaS2 shills can easily start a 400+ replies omitted thread with this shit.

>>378097016
Bonfire warping to every bonfire ruined the souls series. At least in DaS2 every location was connected by some kind of physical journey (Aside from the DLC and memories) regardless of how disjointed that was.
None of the transitions in DaS3 feel worth mentioning in any way because you just walk 5 feet and there's a bonfire and you never do it again.

>>378097721
You can activate a bonfire even if you get invaded.

>>378099729
In Deacons every enemy acts mostly the same (aside from one having a lunge attack and the blue ones being curse guys if you don't fight the boss fast enough) and is at the same height but with differing health values.
Vordt's ring also exists in this game which makes every single mob encounter pointless because of the billions of health you get from spinning weapons.
Congregation is just a mob boss but the composition is at least different, with enemies at varying heights and with different abilities.

>>378102728
>Every single boss has two phases based on health%
>That makes them unique

When you compare it to DaS2 where quite a few bosses had more varied ways of having the fight be unique as well as having health% based phase changes
it falls flat.

The world design in DaS3 ruins the organic nature any levels may have cultivated and the interconnectivity is limited to adjacent levels where the game only bothers to make 2 connections 3 times and there's no reason to ever use those passages other than to collect the otherwise inaccessible items inside them.

>>378106089
Bad example. What does Yhorm being on fire change about the fight? His fire AoE doesn't do damage, and all his attacks are the same. You still fight him the exact same way, with the gimmick sword.

>>378094959
Dark Souls 2's problem was 2 directors, troubled development, and the publisher selling chunks of the game as DLC

Here's how the Souls saga worked:
-Demon's Souls was a collab with Sony's 1st party studio JapanStudio, however a certain Sony lead didn't see the appeal of the game and thought it was a wasted effort, so even though it was pretty much a 1st party titles (technically 2nd party I guess?) Sony didn't publish it outside of Japan. Atlus and BandaiNamco picked it up due to it getting a cult following in the west.

-While developing DaS1 FromSoft knew it couldn't rely on Sony since their last game just got ditched outside japan, so they looked for another publisher out of desperation (even though Sony co-developed their last game) and a contract was sealed with BandaiNamco for 3 games published under them

-After DarkSouls1 came out, or even before then, the Sony lead (Shuhei yoshida) knew his dismissal of the franchise was a huge mistake and so offered to fully support FromSoft once more, this time without retarded publishing restrictions.

-DaS2 and Bloodborne were now in development. BandaiNamco's contract was already obsolete at this point, since FromSoft always had a better publisher to begin with (albeit stubborn) but now they are forced to shit out 2 more games because of the contract

-FromSoft finishes shitting out the other 2 half-hearted milked DarkSouls games, while the leads actually focus on the JapanStudio collab projects.

That's it. There's no reason for FromSoft to partner with BandaiNamco now that they know Sony won't act retarded like they did with Demon'sSouls. Sony not only publishes games internationally but also helps the studio itself developing the game, building the engine or offering sound recording studios, composers and orchestras (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yncMReF8QA) and Sony doesn't force FromSoft into making sequel trash, they can create any IPs they wish

Unless FromSoft wants to make multiplats they have no reason to go back to Bandai when Sony is clearly the better right hand

>>378106268
Still Very Good, LUL
>>378104541

>>378106462
>Charge storm ruler
>use storm ruler
>repeat 3 more times
>"very good"

>>378106589
>It's a clever design
>Butthole face giant in DS2 was a load of crap

>>378095213
that is everywhere in DAS2

In this thread we list things Dark Souls 2 did that were far better than Dark Souls 3. I'll start:

>No bonfire and no death challenge where you can beat the game without resting at a bonfire or dying to gain a reward and bragging rights

>Non-linear first half of the game allows you to rush straight to the areas of the game that contain the items for your build

>Chugging Estus immobilizes you, and the heal isn't instantaneous meaning trying to chug while someone is sticking close to you will result in death

>Stamina regeneration is tied to weight, so a character at 10% burden will recover their bar faster than a character at 70% burden, giving an advantage and a reason to make a low burden character

>Poise exists and armor provides relevant, but not overpowering damage reduction, giving an advantage and a reason to make a high burden character

>Phantoms and Dark Spirits cannot chug estus, spirits can only heal via spell useage which is slow. This makes fighting outnumbered even without mob assistance possible since any damage you do sticks

>Can only perform four rolls before running out of stamina

>Can only perform 5 attacks of a rapier or straight sword before running out of stamina

>Parrying has longer recovery frames and consumes more stamina, making parry fishing riskier and makes parrying require higher skill

>Power stance allowing for unique combinations of dual wielding and unlocking an alternative moveset for weapons

>Being able to use the full moveset of a weapon in your off-hand including running, rolling, backstepping, etc. attacks rather than just being able to do a basic R1 swing and blocking with the weapon as it is in Ds3 (lmao who would ever want to weapon block)

>Bell Tower covenant providing two unique optional areas to PvP for Titanite Chunks, Slabs, and Twinkling, making farming for upgrades fun

>Bonfire ascetics to replay bosses you like and or gain items from NG+ and beyond without grinding through the whole game again

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>>378106101
>You can activate a bonfire even if you get invaded.
You're right, I remember it wrong. I just couldn't sit down and heal. So I was scared.

Webm for ants related

>>378102728
DS2 is just a mess of individual levels loosely connected by shoddily made area portals with its giant boring empty cube rooms and hallways.

>>378096852
best post
dark souls 3 is shit

>>378096852

Adding to my list of anti DS3 pastas I can use to trigger DS3 babbies. Thanks friend.

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>>378099196
>>378094959
I have not yet played DS3, I want to shortly, but Bloodborne was fantastic. DS2 SotFS was utter shit.
I'm hopeful.

>>378108687
> Pic related
Best DS3 boss.

>>378106101
>Similarly to why every boss has 2 phases because of another cut mechanic.
Which one was that?

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Dark Souls 2 is the worst Souls game, but it's still the 5th best video game ever.

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>>378109017
Not attacking your opinion personally, but why are people so fixated on deciding which Souls game is the best/worst? They're all pretty badly made. They're all untested, unfinished to varying degrees, lazily written, tedious, repetitive circlestrafe simulators with muddy visuals and a cancerous playerbase.

It's like arguing which turd in the septic tank is the least stinky.

>>378094959
DaS 2 doesn't have bad level design overall.
It has horrendous interconnectivy (e.g. world design) and, especially in vanilla, terrible enemy placement.

>>378109228
Man, this guy is going all out.

>>378096852
>faith is garbage
opinion invalidated with just three words
impressive

>>378094959
it does, it's just that Dark Souls 3 is even worse

BB>DS>DeS>DaS2>DaS3

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>>378109228
Because it's a thread about ranking Souls games.

>>378109534
Why does that warrant making a thread about, is what I'm asking. I've played all the Souls games except DeS, and I just don't see the point. Enlighten me.

>>378109617
Maybe if you werent a millenial you'd understand that the world doesnt revolve around you.

>>378109720
That's why I asked you to enlighten me, nigga.

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>>378109617
Because people want to talk/discuss/argue/shitpost about it. What other reason do you need?

>>378109804
Just strikes me as fucking pointless. I can understand discussing stuff from individual games, as they do have their interesting points, but impotently screeching about which rotten apple in a pile is the least rotten is just fucking retarded. They're all equally rotten. And most posts in this thread don't even offer any substantial arguments. They're just arbitrary rankings.

Is this supposed to be constructive? Or am I supposed to watch a YouTube "lore" video to get the full story of this thread?

>>378094959
all Dark Souls games have horrible level design. the fact there is no map because MUH DIFFICULTY XDDDD makes it even more retarded.

>>378106268
Doesnt he do different stuff in NG+?

>>378109421
He's right though.... Healing miracles are redundant because you never run out of estus, offensive miracles are all pathetic apart from Dorrhys' gnawing, you don't even get the Lightning Clutch until Archdragon Peak.

I've completed the game a dozen times with every build and faith is both the least fun and least effective

>>378106101
>Similarly to why every boss has 2 phases because of another cut mechanic.

What did he mean by this?

>>378110057
>The newest generation of people who play games need a constantly updating minimap (possibly even one with objective markers) or they get lost in these simple-ass levels

>>378094959
And people say these games are good..

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>>378109984
Someone started the thread because they had an opinion and felt like voicing it, and all responses thereafter are just people choosing to partake in voicing their own opinion through the aforementioned talk/discussions/arguments/shitposts, be it for a chance to discuss the merits and faults of the series or to just rustle jimmies/respond to being rustled.

Arbitrary ranking are that poster's way of saying "this is my opinion on the series" and allows others to chime in to agree or disagree, driving forward the talk/discussion/argument/shitposting.

It's not supposed to be constructive or destructive, it just is. No one's going to change anyone's opinion here, they just want to voice it because it's a place where they can.

>>378110312
Similarly to the sacrifice for a bonfire mechanic I remembered reading about some kind of more dynamic boss phase system though at this point I don't remember a source or much about it.

>>378109775
>nigga

holy shit lmao

>>378096852
>boss weapons shit as usual
What the fuck, thats one of the only things ds3 handles better
So many of the boss weapons are super fun to play with, the more anime they get the better

>>378109228
you are completely right, but you fail to realize these games are mostly popular with a generation not familiar with ps1/ps2/n64 era arpgs

>>378099196
>>378099196
I know this is most likely bait, but i am actually really fucking sick of this stupid meme.

DS2 is fucking shit and always has been, that's why it was so hated when it came out

DS2 is shit for far too many reasons for me or anyone to really list out but the obviously gigantic problems are the horrible tracking enemies have, too many mob bosses, giga sized hitboxes/shockwaves, dodge roll iframes being fucked up, shit level design and layouts.

Also the game is very ugly graphically and stylistically, like way worse than DS1 looks and even worse than DeS.

DaS2 has great FPS and performance, but the world and the main character feel and look so fucking bad. It's like they're made with play doh. Sword swinging, drinking estus and sprinting animations feel like they are going "HERE! I WANT YOU TO KNOW THAT I AM DOING THIS ACTION"

In other souls games the animations feel like they just happen, and they are less floaty. And the worlds feel sharper and more inspired

>>378110139
No?

>>378111020
Not saying you're wrong, but I find it fucking ironic that DaS2 is also the one game that's the most technically polished. Animation meshing is implemented properly for once, you don't get full i-frames on object interaction, clip planes are actually aligned with the terrain, etc. etc.

Then DaS3 rolled back most of those improvements because people kept bashing DaS2 (for other reasons entirely). It's astounding how From can be so incompetent and still remain afloat.

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>>378111020
>Also the game is very ugly graphically and stylistically, like way worse than DS1 looks and even worse than DeS.

Honestly, the only real things DS1 has over 2 are the lighting and overused filters - otherwise it looks just as shit.
Just look at the mess that is Undead Parish with its broken geometry, awkward draw distance/LOD (seriously, why the fuck can't I see ANY of the gargoyles up there from the ground, not even the actual statue ones?), glitchy elevator chains, 2D sprite trees, etc.

>>378102728
I am in Drangleic castle right now.
Ds2 feels like a chore.

>>378111464
There's a glitch if you look at the Church rooftop while walking around the courtyard

>>378111020
>are the horrible tracking enemies have, too many mob bosses, giga sized hitboxes/shockwaves,
This is shared by 3, you know.

>>378111689
All the Souls games, actually.

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>>378111020
DS2 is my least favorite souls game, almost purely because of the level design and the poor texture work kinda seriously hurts the atmosphere.

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>>378111906

>>378111906
>>378112039
>>378112075
kys

>>378111464
What's wrong with its geometry?

>>378111978
>goes from 99999 souls to 0
PFFFHAHAHAHA git gud kid

>>378111978
>Finish SotFS once
>Never want to go through it again

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>>378112180
>if you look from the outside through the windows you can see straight trough walls
>lighting textures of windows are misplaced and are below windows
>there are windows on the inside that aren't on the outside due to texture issues

Also, if you want to see something somewhat funny, try shooting arrows at the drake from the black knight tower.

>>378109984
>>378109617
>>378109228
Edgy.

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>>378112479
And do yourself a favor and never look down to Firelink Shrine from the roof of the church.

How is it like playing souls with keyboard and mouse?

>>378112646
Like playing an FPS with no aim assist with a controller.

>>378110245
When was the last time you played Dark Souls 3? Faith has been ridiculously good since TRC.

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>>378111978
>I don't really care.

>>378106101
>When you compare it to DaS2 where quite a few bosses had more varied ways of having the fight be unique as well as having health% based phase changes
Are you seriously trying to imply that DaS2's bosses were a step up from 3? Even if we factor in the DLC that is laughable.

>>378095670
DELETE THIS. BUY A PS4!

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>>378112719

>>378112479
Neat to see this kind of stuff to preserve FPS.

tfw I enjoyed DaS2 a lot and I didn't find a problem with the level design

Like, I get it that the fortress of lava atop the tower is dumb, but that's the only really egregious example I can think of and you can just pretend there was a volcano behind the tower and it doesn't matter anymore (I know there's not, but my point is that it's not bad design in the level itself when you play, not something in the game itself).

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>>378113160
>that's the only really egregious example

What about the elevator at the docks in Lost Bastille?

>>378113160
what about no man's wharf not being bellow sea level?

>>378113245
>>378113314
Or how you end up in Zhangjiajie National Forest Park after travelling through a spooky mansion.

>>378113314
What about Ash Lake being at lava level but having no lava or rocky structures whatsoever?

>>378113534
Ceaseless Discharge wasnt in Ash Lake

>>378113534
What did he mean by this?

>>378113160
>>378113314
>>378113443
If someone didn't make a video pointing this stuff out, I would never have noticed it.

I blame my shitty sense of direction. But it's hardly noticeable unless you're looking for it

>>378113245
>>378113314
I honestly didn't notice this stuff while playing. I just go on to see the next cool area.

>>378113749
>hardly noticeable

Bullshit, man, c'mon. You go up a damn elevator in Earthen Peak and then lava everywhere. You travel down a small tunnel in Majula and boom you're at Heide's.

>>378113749
I noticed the elevator into lava castle, that was pretty glaring.

Also the fucking door to the shrine of winter being locked behind four great souls when there was a path blocked by a single pillar right next to it. That was a really bad design choice.

>>378113802
>cool area
>ds 2
The game looks like ass. The art direction was all over the place.
Dragon Aerie & Amana looked great though.

>>378113815
I'm thinking about the enemies to kill, a boss fight and constantly turning left and right to navigate hallways. Not bullshitting. I would not have noticed it.

>>378095213
DS1 had the Demon ruins and Daughter of Chaos Bonfires being right next to each other.
I usually dont even bother lighting the ruins fire cause Spiderlady is a firekeeper so her bonfire can be kindled higher anyway.

>>378113534
>lava level
holy shit

>>378113960
To be fair, Daughter of Chaos bonfire is behind a hidden wall.

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>>378113698
Ash Lake is placed at the same height that the Demon Ruins and Lost Izalith are at.

>>378113931
Well as you said you have a shitty sense of direction.

>>378113960
Her bonfire is hidden behind an illusory wall. Big difference.

>>378114023
The game does a better sense of tricking you with the descent through the Great Hollow, though. You can just imagine that all the lava around LA is due to the demons.

>>378114023
Yeah I know that I just wanted to say that. Now I can say what I really want to say: Ash Lake conceptually is at the bottom of everything. This is not new information.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yggdrasil

We've been mentioning this shit since 2011. There's a world of difference between something like Ash Lake and the world design of DSII.

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>>378113960
That one could be forgiven in that you could completely bypass Daughter of Chaos if you didn't know it was there, and then that's your bonfire until Firesage (those 2 are still pretty close).

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>wanted to like lord of the fallen but the gameplay sucked
>be exited to the news of them making a sci-fi souls
>the surge finally comes out
>reviews are meh
>watch a dude speedrun the game in under 40 mins
>ask if he would recommend the game
>no
IT KEEPS HAPPENING

DS1 is fantastic
DS3 is like a direct continuation of the story, with familiar places you revisit and cool things
I don't care that its worse, its still fun and cool.

Its like that dead space 2 thing with the ship

>>378114119
>it can not make sense because it's a reference!
Eh. Then i can say "time and space is convoluted in Lordran" and it would make just as much sense.

>>378114310
Do you mean Drangleic? Or did you forget what that ugly-ass kingdom was called?

>>378114297
What places from DS1 do you wish were revisited in DS3?

>>378114310
Now you're just being a pedant. You don't deserve anything more than a copy/paste of what I already said. So here you go:

Ash Lake conceptually is at the bottom of everything. This is not new information.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yggdrasil

We've been mentioning this shit since 2011. There's a world of difference between something like Ash Lake and the world design of DSII.

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>>378114086
Pretty much.
It was also hinted at through the Tomb of the Giants.

Meanwhile in DS2 you travel through a tunnel and apparently end up on an entirely different continent.
Absolutely nothing around Drangleic Castle resembles what you've just travelled through, none of the areas you could see the castle from are visible and not even the giant aqueduct is anywhere to be seen.
Instead you got some mountains/islands in the background that aren't visible from the seaside areas.

>>378114391
Not that anon. But I want new londo (londor). Alas my hope will never be fulfilled.

>>378114385
I actually did.

>>378114397
>it can not make sense because it's a reference!
Eh. Then i can say "time and space is convoluted in Drangleic" and it would make just as much sense.

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>>378114485
Ash Lake conceptually is at the bottom of everything. This is not new information.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yggdrasil

We've been mentioning this shit since 2011. There's a world of difference between something like Ash Lake and the world design of DSII.

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>>378114448
Even fucking Zeno Clash 2, a game made by a bunch of Chileans got that right.

>>378114391
Of like to see fire link
Which I think is in the dlc anyway
Anorlondo was crazy
Also oolacile forest turning to shit and dead shroom made me feel bad
So did spider girl

>>378096852
I was kinda angry reading this at first but you're actually right. I guess I'm just deluding myself thinking that DS3 is a good game. The linearity and absolutely no build variety up until endgame is the worst thing to have happened to this game.

>>378114543
>it can not make sense because it's a reference!
Eh. Then i can say "time and space is convoluted in Drangleic" and it would make just as much sense.

>>378114448
Yeah reaching Drangleic Castle and having it be a weird hallway through mostly empty rooms surrounded by empty mountains was somewhat of a letdown. Cool rain effects and a nice boss, but yeah, every area feels completely separate from all other areas.

>>378096852
You forgot that due to the spammable rolls, enemies are much cheaper and the mob ganks and ambushes make DaS2 child's play in comparison.

>>378094959
>3 sets of stairs
wtf why

>>378114661
I don't even feel bad about muling weapons across characters, everything before Abyss Watchers is the same thing every time, and everything after that is a line to the finish anyways. You can only branch off a few different ways, and you can't even fight Twin Princes until you have three other Lord Souls.

>>378114680
See, that doesn't hold water. The flow of time being convoluted is solely used to justify the summoning and invading features. It wasn't used in DaS to justify misaligned geometry, and it wasn't in DSII either. What you are doing is inferring something that isn't there because...you don't want to lose an anonymous argument?


Ash Lake conceptually is at the bottom of everything. This is not new information.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yggdrasil

We've been mentioning this shit since 2011. There's a world of difference between something like Ash Lake and the world design of DSII.

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>>378114684
>Cool rain effects

They couldn't even get those right.
In King's Passage the rain cuts off halfway down, you can't see any rain through the windows, in the back of the elevator there are still textures from Undead Burg that don't have any rain effects applied to them since they are just placeholders they forgot to change, if you look up in bow mode you can see the borders of the rain mesh that hangs in front of you and they even fucked up the sound effects since if you jump around on wet surfaces it sounds like you're cannonballing into a swimming pool.

>>378113160
>you can just pretend there was a volcano behind the tower

In a series with:
>illusory walls
>illusory sun in Anor Londo
>illusory Silver Knights
>illusory Gwynevere
>illusory magic that can turn you invisible or into a vase
>magic that teleports you into a fake world inside a painting

But when an elevator takes you to a seemingly impossible place, it MUST be read literally?
>no magic illusions allowed guys, this is Dark Souls after all
>there must be a LITERAL lava castle in the sky and the B-team just forgot to add it to the skybox lmao

>>378114947
Why didn't they fix this in the rerelease? Wasn't that the point of it?

>>378115034
The point of the rerelease was to get more money. You can tell how much they cared by watching the Falconer soldiers walk animation.

>>378114947
True, but it looked pretty impressive coming out into LGK's arena.

>>378111978
This is the first time seeing DS2 since playing Bloodborne, and its kind of crazy how frankly lazy the art design work is here.

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>>378115034
The point was to get 20 more bucks out of you.

>>378115108
Now try playing Bloodborne and then playing Dark Souls 2. I felt like throwing up from the four way movement system.

>>378097434
there's one further up in the flaming bull head room
didn't know this the first time I played it, but I beat the OIK on my first try anyway

Dark Souls 3's levels are just a series of large rooms, with a few enemies placed in the middle. DaS3, is perhaps the most arcadey feeling of the games. Just run into one room, kill the obvious enemies, run into the next room, kill the obvious enemies.

DaS3 caters to people what want to play action games, without the pesky exploration and preparation and patience. Just run in a single direction, do a 6 hit combo with the long sword and keep moving. If you get in trouble, then spam the roll button 10 times until your safe. Or just sip up in enemy's faces, because you drink faster than gravity can pull liquid down your throat.

Say what you want about DaS2, but at least it gave you a reasons to closely observe your surroundings and be cautious.

>>378116205
Run into the swamp area into group after group of undead worship dudes. Go on.

>>378116205
>Say what you want about DaS2, but at least it gave you a reasons to closely observe your surroundings and be cautious.
Dark Souls 2 had way worse level design than Dark Souls 3. That's what I want to say about DaS2. Your statement is nonsense and doesn't take into account how DaS2 is exactly the same thing. Run into one room, kill the obvious enemies, run into the next room, kill the obvious enemies.

The only areas that don't do this are the DLC zones like Brume Tower which utilize puzzles.

>>378116318
Which area are you talking about? You'll have to refresh me, because I haven't played DaS3 more than once.

>>378116369
I disagree. I find myself being surprised far more often in DaS2. There's always a twist or turn, or some details to an area force you to observe carefully, lest you fall into some trap, or stumble into some enemies. Nothing like that in DaS3. Or at least very little. Every area is so open and square, it honestly feels like they built levels on some kind of grid system.

>>378116740
I was surprised far more often in DaS2, but it was retarded surprises like the three zombies who try to ring the bell in the Crypt, or the fucking mummies who would pop out of the walls out of nowhere just to break all your gear.

>There's always a twist or turn, or some details to an area force you to observe carefully, lest you fall into some trap, or stumble into some enemies.
You can literally apply this to DaS3. You come across as really out of touch and biased, given that you haven't played the game more than once.

Also the more you pay attention to the areas in DaS2, the more you notice how trash the layouts are. Looking at you, Shaded Wood.

>>378116740
The Road Of Sacrifices, come to think of I just found another example. Going down it, you encounter those erratic winged enemies of the dark. Should you blindly charge forward, you'll nab more than one on you, spelling death. There are also 3 hidden in corners should you pass by instead of carefully going around. In the swamp area of the Road Of Sacrifices, you have hordes and hordes of Undead carrying big wooden sticks. If you run in blindly, you'll attract more than one. Spelling death. This was actually something already present in DSII, yet here it is an issue?

In the three story house in the Undead Settlement, there are tucked away thieves hidden around waiting to surprise you. etc. Friend, you played the game once. You shouldn't be criticizing anything about it to be honest because your memory will be unreliable, and your judgment biased.

>>378117043
>>378116903
How can my judgement be biased, when I have no interest in either games, beyond pure entertainment? I don't think you fully understand what bias means. yes, I played one game more than the other, but not because I can't play DaS3, it's because I don't want to. In fact, I lost my copy of DaS2 for PS3 after only a few months.(I'd beaten it that time) and then years later, I get DaS3. Played it once, decided it was mediocre and forgot about it.
Then just recently, I started thinking of DaS2 again, and bought SOTFS. I'm enjoying it a good deal.
DaS2 is just a more enjoyable game, imo.

I'm not going to say Das3 doesn't have it's good moments. But they're sparse. Not enough hits, and too many misses. I'd take some wacky surprises that keep me on my toes, over whatever DaS3 is.

>>378117851
>How can my judgement be biased, when I have no interest in either games, beyond pure entertainment?
Because all of your claims about 2's level design superiority could be applied to 3, and even some of your critiques of 3 could be applied to 2 (for example, the "boxy level design" critique - that shit is glaring in DaS2).

Given how unfamiliar you are with 3 I'm just not interested in discussing its level design with you in too much detail. You're going to find minimal support in thinking 2's level designs are superior, though, and far less support regarding the bosses.

>>378114851
>The flow of time being convoluted is solely used to justify the summoning and invading features
The character reaches the first location by traveling through a magical vortex.

>>378118028
Having opinions that don't match how you *think* reality is, isn't bias. Because, again, I don't have any other interest in either games. There is no reason for me to dislike DaS3, other than it didn't entertain me as much as I wanted. And I believe the game's lacking level design is a good portion of the reason why it didn't entertain me as much as I wanted.
Conversely, I have no more reason to like DaS2, other than it entertained me to a satisfactory level.
There's no bias.

>Given how unfamiliar you are with 3
I beat the game. I'm familiar enough. I can still trace some of the maps in my head. There's just some spotty parts of my memory.
But regardless, I can still remember the impression the game left on me, without fulling remembering the game.

>>378118501
>There is no reason for me to dislike DaS3, other than it didn't entertain me as much as I wanted.
Right, but your unwillingess to go back to it is a bias, given that you're criticizing it while also being woefully lacking in knowledge or insight about the game's environments and mechanics. It makes this conversation a waste of time for me, because you are clearly unfamiliar with the topic and are admitting you don't care.

>I'm familiar enough. I can still trace some of the maps in my head.
Genuinely don't believe you, and so this is the last reply you get.

>>378117851
>How can my judgement be biased

Because you didn't even acknowledge the examples I gave and instead tried to defend your character. The proverbial "caught red-handed."

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>>378118818
>Because you didn't even acknowledge the examples I gave
I did. I said "I'm not going to say Das3 doesn't have it's good moments." You gave a couple of good examples, how can I argue them? But they're just a sparse few examples, among a large game.

>and instead tried to defend your character
Because you called my character into question. Plus, displayed a misunderstanding of the concept of bias. Listen up, the both of you >>378118760
I gave the game a chance. I started with Demon's Souls, then Dark Souls, then Dark Souls 2, missed out on the whole Bloodborne thing, and then got into Dark Souls 3. So it's not as if I'm unfamiliar with the series and it's concepts. I can tell withing 50 hours, whether the game has good or bad level design. If I was being biased, then I would be prejudging the game, or acting on some unrelated interest that goes against one game or favors the other. But it's nothing like that.

If you want to stop talking to me, then fine, I don't give a shit. But to do so on the false idea that I'm biased, is nothing but a poor scapegoat.

>>378112776
In some ways yeah.
Name 3 bosses in DaS3 where you can change the way that the boss fight works other than by reducing the HP of the boss to a certain % to change the phase to the next one. Once you get past knocking the legs off of the Stray Demon (Who has been featured in this series a whopping 5 times if you include vanguard) you can count Pontiff when you kill his phantom and he reverts to his harder moveset but otherwise the closest the game comes to offering an alternative to health% dynamic changes is to not use the weakpoints on the boss (Yhorm, Wolnir, Greatwood, Plunging attack dragon) and do chip damage to it instead.
DaS3 doesn't even step back up to DaS1 levels of good in some aspects since cutting tails off of Dragons is nothing but a shitty reference in 3.

>>378119582
>. So it's not as if I'm unfamiliar with the series and it's concepts. I can tell withing 50 hours, whether the game has good or bad level design.
So then how the fuck do you consider DaS2's levels better designed than DaS3?

Maybe you genuinely do have experience with DaS3, but if that is the case you just have horrendous opinions on level design.

>>378119787
>Name 3 bosses in DaS3 where you can change the way that the boss fight works other than by reducing the HP of the boss to a certain % to change the phase to the next one.
Well, two are from TRC (Demon Prince and Spear of the Church), and there's also gimmick fights like Abyss Watchers where you can rely on waiting out the boss for a better advantage to strike.

Stray Demon isn't even a boss in DaS3, its a miniboss (a concept that DaS2 forgot about), get a grip.

Meanwhile, name 3 good bosses in vanilla DaS2.

>>378119820
Because I like *adventure* games. DaS2's level designs force me to carefully observe, explore, and discover. Half of DaS3's levels are giant rooms, with everything splayed in front of you, and obvious enemies. DaS3 is arcadey. DaS2 is adventurous.

It's like the difference between playing Metroid and Metal Slug. Or Rondo of Blood vs Symphony of the Night

>>378120224
>DaS2's level designs force me to carefully observe, explore, and discover.
Weird, I felt that about DaS3.
>Half of DaS3's levels are giant rooms, with everything splayed in front of you, and obvious enemies.
This isn't really true, though, and it comes across again like you're exaggerating to prove a point.

>It's like the difference between playing Metroid and Metal Slug. Or Rondo of Blood vs Symphony of the Night
Not really. You're comparing games that are completely different genres. DaS2 and DaS3 are both RPG's, one just has better levels and bosses than the other.

>>378120224
Oh yeah, Heide's Tower Of Flame with its giant knights presented directly in front of you each time really caused me to be cautious. The rooms preceding the Ruin Sentinels in the Lost Bastille with their 8 Drangleic soldiers that you funnel into the door outside these rooms. Yeah, man. This is all coming from someone who loves DSII to death, by the way.

>>378111978
Environments are completely devoid of atmosphere and the world itself is a disjointed mess, the boss fights are bland and uninspired at the best of times, and it relies on throwing larger numbers of enemies to increase difficulty, it's the worst in the series

>>378120383
Have you played Symphony of the Night, or any of those styles of Castlevania games? They are super closely related Dark Souls. Dark souls is really just 3D Castlevania if you think about it.
A more accurate comparison to Dark Souls 3, would be Order of Ecclesia. But whatever. That's neither here nor there. The examples weren't to make *exact* comparisons. OBVIOUSLY, you can't draw exact parallels from one game to the other. The point was that 1 game is more basic and straight forward, while the other is more complex.
You never really have to think about where you're going in Dark Souls 3. You just keep moving forward, and killing, until you stumble into a switch or lever or ladder. Which activates the gimmicky contraption, which in turn allows you to progress.
Then take DaS2's path from Majula's well, down to the grave of saints, down to that one dark area(forget what it's called), down to the gulch. All those twists and turns, and secrets along the way... It's a great trip.

>>378120224
Aldia's Keep to Dragon Shrine is literally three areas with nothing but straight hallways and enemies in front of you.

I like Da2 but your dismissal of its flaws while being hyper critical of DaS3 is really obnoxious. Shrine of Amana is the only truly creative and fresh area in 2, the rest is derivative and uninspired; tiny areas that lack meaningful shortcuts.

>>378121051
B-but muh Bowser's castle

>>378121016
>Have you played Symphony of the Night, or any of those styles of Castlevania games? They are super closely related Dark Souls. Dark souls is really just 3D Castlevania if you think about it.
I have indeed. And I think that's somewhat of a flawed comparison. Dark Souls games are similar to SOTN-style CV games in 3D, but it is really nothing at all like the classic Castlevania games.

>You never really have to think about where you're going in Dark Souls 3.
And again, this is where you lose people. Because you make really careless blanket statements like this.
Good luck beating Farron Keep just "running forward". Meanwhile Dragon Aerie was such a shitty area that they blocked it off with stone statues in SOTFS and made it optional, where you just walk down a straight line to clear it.

>>378121254
You don't get the Ashen Mist Heart from the "dragon" anymore?

>>378120815
Yeah, Heide's Tower is pretty shit. Not even going to defend that area. But it's short and tolerable.
But the room preceding the ruin sentinels is interesting, because after you're finished dealing with the horde of enemies, you can open that door that seemingly goes to nowhere. After you inevitably die, you can run off an upper ledge, down through the door, taking you *behind* the horde, and letting you get into the ruin sentinel fight relatively undisturbed. It's best to do this from the blacksmith bonfire, which you can open up by carefully drawing out the enemy near the barrel, and then pushing the barrel down the stares, in order to blow up the wall.

That whole area is super fun, because you can approach it from different sides, and unlock a lot of parts of the level, if you know what you're doing.

Captcha: matlapa cuckmere

>>378121487
I'm aware. I played DSII as well. I'm simply bringing up a point against your "cautious" angle.

>>378121428
No, you do. You're thinking of Dragon Shrine (which was also changed because the area from vanilla DaS2 had godawful enemy layouts, so they just changed it to a series of obvious 1v1 fights). The Dragon Aerie was the cliff segment before it. In the original game you had to navigate the whole area, but in SOTFS they start you with the shortcut unlocked, so you just climb a ladder and zipline across to a bridge, making it a 30 second straight walk.

>>378121632
Really? That's kind of lame. Navigating the Aerie was interesting.

>>378121051
>the rest is derivative and uninspired
And DaS3 isn't? It's nothing but rehashed material from DaS1.
Aldia's structure is an example of how to make a small area interesting. Yes, it's clear that you only need to go through the straightaway, but roadblocks force you to take all of these side paths, where unknown danger lurks.

You got to admit, that gimmick with the eggs and the bridge was pretty cool. But yeah, Dragon Shrine is lacking.

>>378121809
Yeah, I agree. I think overall SOTFS is a better game but a lot of their decisions come across as bandaids rather than legitimate fixes for flaws (see: Agape Ring!).

>>378121895
Derivative in terms of the areas themselves(way too many cathedrals in 3), but not in terms of layout. A simple area like Cathedral of the Deep has more depth to it than most of DaS2's areas, barring exceptions like Lost Bastille and Fortress of the Giants.

>>378121895
>Aldia's structure is an example of how to make a small area interesting.
Aldia's Keep was pathetic. You can like DaS2 without gobbling its cock, you know.

> Yes, it's clear that you only need to go through the straightaway, but roadblocks force you to take all of these side paths, where unknown danger lurks
What, all the sidepaths? All TWO of them? HOLY MOLY!

By the way, this was changed in SOTFS. Now you don't need to go down one of the sidepaths. So your defense is out of date.

>>378121254
>but it is really nothing at all like the classic Castlevania games.
It's similar in the sense that progression of the game is almost entirely linear. And the levels direct and simple.

>Good luck beating Farron Keep just "running forward"
Oh right, this level requires a very advanced level of navigation to get through: Circling the area in a clockwise motion, until you find all the torches.
Meanwhile, watch out for all the enemies that are just splayed across the swamp very obviously. oh no a big wizard dude. Oh no, a face fuck dude, oh no curse frogs. Who knew all of these things just... stand around in the middle of the swamp. So much to see and discover.

>>378121629
Well it's a bad point, because 1, you can avoid drawing all the enemies if you're cautious. Only pulling groups of 2-3 at most. And 2, you can get a nice shortcut that allows you to get around the enemies if your observant.

>>378099447
>We all agree that DS2 is good
No? Nobody would ever agree with that.

>>378122501
>It's similar in the sense that progression of the game is almost entirely linear. And the levels direct and simple.
OK, by that bizarre logic, DaS2 is just like 3D Mega Man. Because you pick one of a few linear paths and then have a final few linear areas too.>>378122501
>Oh right, this level requires a very advanced level of navigation to get through: Circling the area in a clockwise motion, until you find all the torches.
Or, you know, looking up and finding the torches through the skylines. Or getting elevation from the tower and navigating from there.

Also if you're going back to the "DaS3 sucks because of obvious enemy placements" card, you're going to need to address how often that occurs in DaS2.

>>378122772
>you can avoid drawing all the enemies if you're cautious
This is the case of every single Souls game except for the giant sarcophagus filled with giant skeletons in Dark Souls 1. Your bias is still showing. Jesus.

>>378122772
>you can avoid drawing all the enemies if you're cautious?
In Heides? Not really. Every big knight will aggro you.

>>378122051
>Cathedral of the Deep
Are you fucking kidding? That's the area I think about most when I say the game has bad level design. All the areas are unnecessarily massive, and obvious enemies in the middle. The scale of this level makes no goddamn sense. This is emphasized by how many of those little dudes crawl along it's surface. It's really just plain silly. What's the point of these massive rooms for a couple little dudes, or a couple knights?

Cathedral of the Deep is pretty much Anor Londo, with even more wasted space. You have more walking on roofs, more walking of rafters, more opening up giant double doors, another giant chick in bed(except this time she's gross).

Don't even get me started on the boss room. I'm not going to say only DaS3 does this, because DaS2 is an offender too. Where the boss room is maaaaaassive, compared to the actual boss. It comes across as though they first constructed the levels without any clear idea of what the content should be. So you have these elaborate giant beautiful boss rooms, that was clearly made well before they knew what boss was going to be placed inside. And because the room is so gigantic, the environment never plays a part in the boss fights.

Go back to Demon's and DaS1, the bossrooms were always custom tailored to the boss itself.

>>378123581
>Are you fucking kidding? That's the area I think about most when I say the game has bad level design.
Alrighty then.

>Go back to Demon's and DaS1, the bossrooms were always custom tailored to the boss itself.
Its hilarious you say that, because the boss room in DaS3 is actually pretty great for the boss. It punishes people trying to hide behind the coffin from spells with the second stage projectiles and the curse buildup.

Its also hilarious how you left DaS2 off that list. One of the only things DaS2 did well was having the DLC boss arenas be

>>378123913
One of the only things Das2 did well was having hte DLC boss arenas be creative and unique, like the gank squad.

There we go, I left my post unfinished because I was shaking my head at your post.

>>378122204
Aldia's Keep was fine. I'm not saying it's great level design. But it's interesting. You got those side rooms with environments that you might find in the keep of a mad scientist. There's some strong enemies that can escape confines, and a weird NPC that you don't know if you should release, but you do it anyway, only to regret it, and dudes hiding behind wall paintings, and the annoying rats stalking you in the front yard. And the dragon skeleton.
It sucks it wasn't what it was supposed to be. Back in the initial preview of the game, the lighting gave it such a special atmosphere.

>By the way, this was changed in SOTFS. Now you don't need to go down one of the sidepaths. So your defense is out of date.
Yeah, I haven't played Aldia's Keep in SOTFS yet. Still working my way there.

>>378124103
the Jekyl and Hyde npc is also great, although not counting towards the level desing I guess. Still, they managed to cramp a lot into "one corridor" without making it tedious.

>>378124103
>Aldia's Keep was fine. I'm not saying it's great level design. But it's interesting
A hallway. An entrance hall. A second hallway. A side room with a hallway leading down. A side room with a couple enemies. A wall that you can break to find a weapon you will never use.

There is nothing interesting about Aldia's Keep. It is wasted potential and the fact that this was one of the first completed areas shows what a fucked up development DaS2 had and the lasting impact of having two directors with two very different mindsets on what DaS2 should be.

>Aldia's Keep was fine. I'm not saying it's great level design. But it's interesting
Why am I even talking to you?

>bring up Heides
Yeah thats not a good area
>bring up the dragon areas
Yeah those aren't good areas
>bring up Aldia's Keep
Yeah that isn't a great area

You're so fucking full of shit on DaS2 having good level design, you can't even stick to your guns in your original posts. I don't get the impression that you even understand what constitutes good level design.

Here's a fucking hint for you: Shrine of Amana has a pretty level design. Do you understand why?

>>378097267
You only need the bonfire from the Dancer's room for the entire Lothric Castle + Grand Archives because of the elevators, but they completely fucked up.

>>378122837
>OK, by that bizarre logic, DaS2 is just like 3D Mega Man.
Come on, dude. Castlevania has more similarities than just progression. What about themes? Visual design? Settings? Combat? Melee is a lot different than guns.
Also, you comparison is wrong because Mega Man doesn't tie level progression to the items you've collected. Like, you'll never need a key in guts man stage, in order to unlock a door in cut man's stage. Also, you select stages in Mega Man, so you're never required to complete a stage, in order to access another.(until the end stretch)
Man, you're not good at this analogy thing.

>Also if you're going back to the "DaS3 sucks because of obvious enemy placements" card, you're going to need to address how often that occurs in DaS2.
DaS2 has both obvious enemies, and tricksy enemies. DaS3 only has obvious enemies. And it's almost offensive how many rooms have enemies put right in the fucking dead center. Like, not every enemy needs to be secretive or tricky. Just not so blatantly front and center like you can almost see the developer's hand placing them.

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I enjoyed DS2 for how wacky it is. Wacky enemies, wacky levels, best PvP in souls

I enjoyed Demons Souls and Bloodborne for the serious dark atmosphere and artstyle.

I enjoyed DS1 for great interconnected level design and original bosses.

DS3 is just eh, it tries to do everything and fails most of the time.

>>378122901
Yeah, but DaS2 thought to put them down the hall, so you don't immediately spot them coming, and thus you might step too far and trigger more than you want. DaS3's enemies are like
>"Here we are, asshole. Come fight us. Or not. It's ok, we understand. Tell your mom we said hi."

>>378122913
I was talking about the lost bastille.
Heide isn't the best area. You can avoid aggroing the knights if you just travel slowly though. They don't aggro on sight. They aggro on proximity. So just don't get close to one while you're fighting the other.

And the three in the center area will fight you one vs one in honorable duels, if only you don't run away. If you run, they all come after you. But if you only hit one, then the other two back away.

>>378124927
>Also, you comparison is wrong because Mega Man doesn't tie level progression to the items you've collected.
Neither does Das2. You beat the four great ones(or grind enough) and move onto the next section of the game, where you go through three linear levels followed by three linear levels.

Kind of like how in Mega Man, where you beat a set amount of bosses before moving onto the Wily stages.

>Come on, dude. Castlevania has more similarities than just progression. What about themes? Visual design? Settings? Combat? Melee is a lot different than guns.
None of this relates to the actual design of the levels themselves beyond the finishing touches like visual design. We're talking about level design, remember?

>>378125424
Heide's is a trash area. And yeah, they aggro on proximity. When was the last time you played Das2? Tell me how you can avoid aggroing the sledgehammer knight in front of the gate.

You haven't even beaten SotfS. Maybe get on that.

>>378123913
>It punishes people trying to hide behind the coffin from spells with the second stage projectiles and the curse
There's so much space, that there is zero reason to hide behind the coffin. other than simple curiosity. Like, "the room is so big, they must be hiding something back there. Nope, nothing. Aaaaand their attack nonsensically clips through the giant coffin. Great."

>Its also hilarious how you left DaS2 off that list. One of the only things DaS2 did well was having the DLC boss arenas be
I haven't gotten to the DLC yet. But in the main game, boss rooms are pretty shit, and huge for no go reason. LESS SO than DaS3. But still bad.

>>378125761
Oh wow, you're actually saying something about DaS2 is flawed? I simply can't believe it.

>>378094959
One guy went with the idea of "let's put a bonfire for every boss" and another guy went with "let's put a bonfire at the start of every level" and then both of them went "nuh-uh, I ain't talking to you" and worked in their corners, ignoring each other as they did their things.

>>378124607
>A hallway. An entrance hall. A second hallway. A side room with a hallway leading down. A side room with a couple enemies. A wall that you can break to find a weapon you will never use.
it's not about quantity. It's the fact that you were exploring an actual place, that felt like a real area. And not just another giant overscaled masturbation session by the 3D artists.
Aldia's Keep makes me wish there was more. Cathedral of the Deep makes me wish they cut out more.

>Why am I even talking to you?
Because I'm one of the few posters on the site that isn't shitposting.

>Yeah that isn't a great area
Yeah? I'm not afraid to admit DaS2's faults. Jeez, just a few posts ago, I was being accused of being biased in favor of DaS2. And now that I've stated where I think the game is lacking, I'm full of shit? Ever consider that I can think the game isn't perfect, but still think it's a good game? You guys listed some of the worse levels in the game. Not a big deal. There's a bunch of other good levels that hold my *general* statements to be *generally* true.

>Here's a fucking hint for you: Shrine of Amana has a pretty level design. Do you understand why?
Well it certainly gave me a lot to explore. Even despite being mostly linear, it had a pretty neat gimmick. A couple neat gimmicks in fact. The singing keeping the enemies complacent, and using torches to spot the cliffs in the water. Oh and the dudes with all the projectiles. A lot of people complained about that, but I thought it was fun. Because the enemies are designed to make you panic and move hastily in the water, where you can easily fall off a cliff. So in order to *really* get through the level, you have to carefully observe your environment, take note of enemy placement to avoid ambush, know when to pull out a torch, and when to put it away, and map the area in you mind, so that you can deal with the enemies without falling. All supported by an interesting theme and thick atmosphere.

>>378127207
>it's not about quantity.
You're right, its about quality. Aldias is severely lacking in quality.

>Because I'm one of the few posters on the site that isn't shitposting.
Yeah but you really aren't saying anything. This whole conversation is a waste of time considering how unfamiliar you are with the areas of both DaS2 and DaS3 (and dont give me any crap about how you remember it, when you already admitted you haven't even beaten SOTFS and are unfamiliar with the level design changes that have come with it). This is really a bland conversation and we're going in circles because all you do is make excuses for Dark Souls 2 while criticizing Dark Souls 3 in ways that also apply to Dark Souls 2 (ways that apply far more to 2, when you're talking about linear areas and obvious enemies).

At least you appreciate Shrine of Amana. If there's one decent thing to have come out of this thread, its that. But I think this is it. Don't write out any more huge blocks of text unless you're holding out for replies from other people, please.

>>378125479
>Neither does Das2.
Nah, my dude. You need a branch of yore from one area to access another area. A ring to survive the fall into another area. and several keys to get access to several other areas. Plus, there are parts where you absolutely need to finish one level(boss included), in order to reach the next level/boss. All before the first major bottleneck. In Mega Man, you can complete the first 8 bosses in any order.

>None of this relates to the actual design of the levels themselves beyond the finishing touches like visual design. We're talking about level design, remember?
Not only level design, but also game progression. But you make a fair point. That other stuff doesn't really matter. So perhaps I stretched the analogy a bit far. But my point still stands about game progression. DaS3 is definitely closer to Castlevania than Mega Man. If only for the shear fact that Castlevania forces you to finish one level before moving on to the next.

>>378125623
I finished Heide in SOTFS. Dragonslayer and all. I'm not sure what you mean about the sledgehammer knight in front of the gate. The one in front of the boss door? There's only one of them, so just kill him or enter the boss door.
I'm not sure what you're getting at.

>>378125943
Huh? I've been open about what parts of DaS2 I think are bad. You just haven't been receptive.
In fact, my argument was never that DaS2 is a great game. It's always been that it has relatively better level design than DaS3, because of certain fundamental differences. And because of it's better levels, it's a more enjoyable game overall.

>>378127841
>Yeah but you really aren't saying anything.
I'm saying things. It's just not anything you want to hear.

>and dont give me any crap about how you remember it, when you already admitted you haven't even beaten SOTFS and are unfamiliar with the level design changes that have come with it).
The existence of SOTFS, doesn't make OG Dark Souls 2 go away. They both exist as two different versions of the game. I've beaten the original game more than once. I'm not sure how many times exactly. I think perhaps only twice in completion. But I've started maybe a dozen different characters just for fun, and gotten to late game with each.
I just started playing SOTFS recently, so yeah, beyond a certain point, I'm not familiar with the changes.

As for DaS3, I already posted proof that I've played it for 50 hours. I've beaten the game, and know it well enough. Not every inch. But I'm familiar enough to have an informed opinion.

The problem with this conversation, is that you're in a position where the only way you can definitely dispel my opinion, is to go through each and every level, and dissect them, and tally them up to make an objective comparison. Otherwise, there's no way to craft a concrete argument against anything I'm saying. So in frustration, you call my credentials in question, as a scapegoat. That's pretty lame, my dude. You can just say I'm wrong, and leave it at that. You don't need to craft false reasons to leave.

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>>378125151
I already showed you examples as evidence to the contrary, yet here you are yet again making sweeping generalizations. You're not looking to be convinced. You're looking to showcase your biased opinions. You're no longer worth responding to, not because your opinions aren't valuable. But because you're ignoring others.

>>378129726
I'm going against my better judgment and replying to you again, because this is getting embarrassing.

>So in frustration, you call my credentials in question, as a scapegoat.
You called them into question yourself when you said multiple times that you didn't know anything about SOTFS. You don't know about the layout changes, you don't know about the DLC at all, its stupid for me to waste my time talking level design when you are unfamiliar with the levels.

I already told you not to reply to me, just stop posting, especially if you're going to throw a tantrum over having your inexperience pointed out.

>>378130051
You showed me examples as evidence to the contrary of what exactly? I'm lost.
I was given a specific example where you claimed DaS2 had poor design. And then I provided reasons for why that particular example is actually good. Illustrating the disparity between DaS2 and DaS3. Sprinkled a little bit of hyperbole on top. But only for flavor. I hope you understand.

>>378130702
I don't think you're as clever or eloquent as you seem to think.

>>378130283
Again, SOTFS is a separate version of the game. I'm familiar with the base game. I think it's fair enough to make an opinion based on that knowledge alone. It was never specified that we were only talking about SOTFS. And besides, every level I've played in SOTFS so far has improved upon the original. Enemy placement alone make a significant difference. I've played through the forest of the giants, through Heide the waterway, and the wharf. Most of lost bastille, including the belltower, stopping at Straide's bonfire.
Down the well through the grave of the saints, the black area(always forget it's name), stopping at the first gulch bonfire.
Went through huntsman, stopping to say hello to the horse, before going through the mines, and up the windmill, all the way through the lava area, the belltower, the strong optional fire dude, and killing the lava man-dragon.
So there. I've gotten through a pretty good chunk of the game so far, wouldn't you say? I was pretty thorough too. Searching every nook and cranny.

>>378098782
I like all the games, but view DaS3 as the weakest of the franchise. Doesn't mean I hate it.

>>378130796
I try my best to communicate effectively, and with a slight affect, in order to keep people engaged. It seems to be working.
But I do get lost in conversations after some time. It happens when people stop using nouns, and start referring to things as "it" or in nondescript terms. Like what you did in your previous post.

You said "I already showed you examples as evidence to the contrary". But I don't remember what examples you gave. And I sure don't understand why the examples matter. Honestly, your previous post doesn't seem to follow at all.

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I'm playing through SOTFS for the first time.

At first it felt very weird and off. Movement felt sluggish and the first area, the forest, is absolute ass because it's so "artificially" difficult with multiple mobs and rolling being absolutely useless at first.

Past that however, I've been having a lot of fun. The armour sets and weapons are interesting and feel a lot more creative than DaS3's, and while getting invaded far more often than in 1/3, they are pretty equal duels. DaS1 invasions were awful with twink tryhards backstabbing at every opportunity, and DaS3 invaders are shitty ganking cowards.

SOTFS has some really retarded decisions though. Soul memory being one of them, enemies being hard as fuck to run past seeing as they get alerted like 100 miles away, and Darklurker and Chariot bosses being a tedious crawl back due to having to kill everything to get back to them. DaS2's lows are the worst in the series. Bosses are pretty fucking easy, too.

I think a lot of the areas are much more entertaining than DaS3's though. I like the puzzle elements to them and visually Heide's Tower is pretty damn cool. I LOVED the setting of the Looking Glass Knight boss too, I think it's been my favourite boss.

I'm starting to feel the fatigue however. I'm at the first DLC and I'm getting kind of tired of the game. But overall it has some of the coolest concepts that DaS3 should've definitely expanded upon rather than ignoring.

>>378096852
>Boss weapons shit as usual
Vordt's mace is the best fuck up

>>378094959
DaSIII is a mix of team A and team B, of course it would have shitty level design for instances

>>378096852
>most linear, even compared to DeS
you obviously haven't played DeS, because it is not linear at all. 5 pillars to freely choose from, with the best path being bouncing between them.
not a linear game.