Crappy games

lisa is just a crappy game

>>378079762
I really want this to turn into LISA general, can we just do that?

Was the fan made game good?

>>378079841
This.

>>378079889
>I really want this to turn into LISA general, can we just do that?
No.

And no.

>>378079889
>Was the fan made game good?
did any of these actually get completed?

>>378080130
Yes. The Pointless. Fitting name.

>>378079762
I don't get the hype

>>378080263
the pointless is only 33% done

>>378080315
Contrarians and pseudo-intellectuals.

>>378080405
Then some other one, whatever.

>>378079889
Which one?

Just trying to get out of the fan based popular gaming IGN manipulation

>>378081050
What?

>>378079762
An indie game inspiring fangames set in the same universe is a telltale sign for autism-tier vidya.

>99% of gamers buy the top 10 IGN reviewed vidya

>>378081050
>>378081412
What is this autism?

>>378079841
First post worst post.

>>378081451
>Implying he isn't right.

>>378081521
Yes you sure showed me anonymous user with your funny meme arrows.

>>378081050 Is he gonna be ok?

>>378079762
If it turned out to be awesome, then why the fuck are you calling it a crappy game?

>>378079762
Kept waiting for Dany to show up so they could take me away from a sweet place

Can we forget about everyone's autism and just focus on the subject?

>>378082294
The subject isn't autism?

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>>378079841
>>378081521
Its a great game with a great theme and amazing soundtrack. fight me.

>>378082364
No this post isn't about your problems...

>>378080130
Lisa The Hopeful is completely done for the main story, now they're just retuning it to be less fanmod-y.

>>378079841
It was all right. Too bad the creator had a sjw faggotry meltdown when Trump got elected and now suffers a severe case of white guilt.

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>>378079762
Say whatever you want about mobile games, but these 3 are absolute jewels, better than most console or PC games released in decades, the first 2 symbian games and the third one and Android/IOS/Windows game.

>>378079762
lisa was pretty good. the sequel was a crappy game

>>378079841
FPBP.

Seriously, i don't even fucking know why /v/ hypes this piece of shit. Tho it's probably the devs doing stealth marketing.

>>378082608
Is it good?

>>378079841
This anon knows

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Repetitive gameplay, but loved the story and characters.

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Who was the real good guy?
Who was the real bad guy?

>>378081614
You showed me with your equally vapid response.
>>378082570
Nah.

Yado is the worst character

>>378083519
>Pretending this game is deep and morally gray.
LOL.

>>378083589
Thats Buddy, literally an edgy teen *slits your throat* psst

>>378083846
>literally an edgy teen *slits your throat* psst
That's the entire game.

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>>378083519
good guy? dusty
bad guy? brads dad
>>378083598
kind of is though. You could make arguements for a lot of it as far as who is on the right and wrong.

The Joyful ruined it.

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>>378085726
the joyful was a victory lap and a bitter sweet end to a bitter story.

>>378085386
>kind of is though
Kind of isn't though.

You could make arguments for why anyone is right or wrong.
Lisa's arguments on either side are one-dimensional and not very varied. There are a ton of set moral conflicts that you pick out of a bag. For instance "one life for the greater good". That doesn't mean you made a well-written or deep game, it just means you watch a lot of movies. Things like Watchmen elevate that concept while things like Lisa stew in it and masturbate to themselves.

You didn't even mention the primary moral dilemma in your post which was essentially "brad vs. everyone else". This relies on the notion that what Brad is doing will immediately and unmistakably destroy the human race (which is such a hilariously exaggerated conflict to shoehorn in order to make you question your morals) when it obviously isn't. Rando's Army is a radier group like everything else. They are not organized and their supplies are the only thing elevating them about everyone else. Buddy is underage or just barely hit puberty- she has a ton of time to repopulate and if you know anything about biology, you know that this can be accomplished with relative ease and isn't a "SUPER DUPER TIME CONSTRAINED THING".

Lisa is trash, etc, etc.
>>378085726
Joyful was a tiny turd on top of a shit sandwhich.

>>378085895
Sorry for the spelling and syntax. I'm on strong painkillers and 4chan makes it hard to proofread your posts.

>>378085895
But Brad's supposed to be irrational, he's a mentally ill drug addict who is way too strong for his own good and doesn't want to be to be Javi 0.5

>>378086403
>But Brad's supposed to be irrational,
What does this have to do with my post? At all? I said that the "this is our last chance" people were irrational, not Brad.

Brad is a fucked up guy and that was apparent without Dingaling trying to contrive a fake conflict about how him saving a little girl from rapists would somehow end the world.

>>378085895
>she has a ton of time to repopulate and if you know anything about biology, you know that this can be accomplished with relative ease
>know anything about biology
>repopulate

>>378086076
>I'm on strong painkillers
I'm not surprised, you're ranting like you're tweaked out of your fucking mind.

>>378086758
>repopulate
Yes, Anon, inbreeding isn't 100% likely to cause disorders and is a non-issue for second cousins. If Buddy had sex with a guy every time she gave birth and they rotated properly, it'd be fine. If a large selection of men had sex with her until she died (with the possibility of twins), the human race would have a large chance to survive. This is all variable but it isn't a huge "0 chance to live" situation.

That's not very nice. :(

>>378087216
Well, slight hiccup, replace "died" with "went infertile". It narrows the gap slightly but not by a ton.

>>378083204
>PvZ
>mobile
It was a pc game first

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>>378085895
Id say your argument is for the very sake of argueing. The points are plenty varied. The problems deal with a multitude of issues and even if you consider them weak (youre wrong) the game still has great characters. an amazing ost, and solid mechanics. so really youre issue you dont personally gell with the 'morals'?

>>378087707
>Id say your argument is for the very sake of argueing.
What? Why?
>The points are plenty varied.
Like...?
>The problems deal with a multitude of issues
The central conflict essentially deals with one, maybe two if you're going off of like two lines. The "themes" bring up a ton but they're really not explored at all.
>(youre wrong)
Good argument.
>the game still has great characters. an amazing ost, and solid mechanics.
Underwritten, meh, and lackluster to tedious.
>so really youre issue you dont personally gell with the 'morals'?
Literally not what I said.I don't know how you could have interpreted this.

>>378085895
>>378087371
I feel like the proper writing points aren't really being discussed here. "Deep" and "morally gray" are what you detract from Lisa, but it is not necessarily supposed to be either. What's more significant to the writing of Lisa is that it is emotional. You could say that any one of Brad's decisions has an obvious moral choice and that all of the moral arguments will fall into one side or the other, but if Brad chooses to lose one of the few friends he has made in an apocalyptic or lose an arm his mental state is dragged down either way. Lisa is surface level and edgy in quite a few ways, which you can hold against it and argue those points for days. I'd agree with you, although you can also hunt down the deep parts of it (like what caused Olath to be Olath-y and so on). Rather, the people that enjoy it enjoy it more for the raw emotional potency, dark humor, and the gradual breakdown of broken man. I can really only speak for myself though.

>>378088109
The gameplay is super boring though. I think even Undertale deserves more praise

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>>378088035
It seems like youre being confrontational for the sake of it. The points or themes deal with abuse, addiction, lonileness, not being good enough, and most of all family. Sorry just saying what i feel. considering there are almost 40 characters, underwritten is excusable. You really didnt like the ost?? also the mechanics being tedious would be your opinion, you must've known it was turn based.

>>378088109
>What's more significant to the writing of Lisa is that it is emotional.
I hate games that rely on "muh emotions". But if you look at what a lot of the "feels" people are saying, it seems like they're trying to look way too deeply into "edgy meme game"

And honestly, I find the base game really pretentious with going off of fan reactions. The flashbacks, platitudes, and overuse of ellipses really make me think it was trying to be "deep"

Dingaling's interviews also bring to light how he thinks and he seems to take it as seriously as they do.
>you could say that any one of Brad's decisions has an obvious moral choice and that all of the moral arguments will fall into one side or the other, but if Brad chooses to lose one of the few friends he has made in an apocalyptic or lose an arm his mental state is dragged down either way.
This is a thematically incoherent mechanic that makes no real sense with Brad's character as he doesn't give a shit about them. It's only there for edge. But that's besides the point, I guess.

You clearly haven't seen the obsessive fags on Steam/Tumblr then, Anon.

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>>378087707
>>378088528
pure unadulterated autism

>>378088528
>It seems like youre being confrontational for the sake of it.
But why?
>The points or themes deal with abuse, addiction, lonileness, not being good enough, and most of all family.
These are apparent only through their presence, not how the game explores them. Brad says under one hundred games in the entire game and he's supposed to be a relatively established character ("muh broken" doesn't explain this, it excuses it.)

Lisa didn't need to have 40 characters though. If you look at the original Kickstarter, Brad had 3 set companions and no one else. Dingaling just bloated the content for no real benefit to the writing.

Nah, not particularly.

It's bad turn-based though, and that's not exactly my problem ("dur hur hard" and the combo """"""""mechanic"""""" aside). I was talking about the clunky, and autistic overworld movement. Alongside few save points for more "dur hur hard" memepoints.
>>378088781
I'm pretty sure English isn't his first language, Anon. Give him a break.

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>>378088781
Im being sincere. If its too much for you to handle then dont give me the (you)'s?

>>378089059
*one hundred lines in the entire game

>>378085386
Dusty is not a good guy, he would have gotten Buddy raped so fast because he couldn't control his men.

He also has no right to raise Buddy, nor the know how to do it.

>>378088508
I made no point for the gameplay. I only mentioned writing in my post. What're you on about?
>>378088601
The depth is all emotional, that's why you aren't seeing it the same way as other people. Brad's various traumas accumulate to make him up as a character that faces down vast emotional burdens with stoicism. Hence, a lot of ellipses and flashbacks. If you don't care about the emotional weight to anything, then if will, of course, fall flat for you. You find it pretentious because where others invest in the "muh feelings" side of it, you do not. It's a game that is either loved or hated as a result. To each their own.

>>378089297
No one is a good guy in Lisa because it's a game that's intelligent, nihilistic, and has a wicked sense of humor.

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>>378089059
Cuz its /v/?
The presence isnt prescent in the game? Im not sure what you even mean with that. He says under 100 lines? So what exactly does that mean? You feel hes underdeveloped as if you feel theres more story there? But you dont act like it. Even if it didnt need it, it had those chars. They over all where fine and the GAME had more then the main story. Maybe that didnt click with you but the world itself was a story, how man dealt with no women was a major topic that was alien to the main story. Areas ;like the Russian rulet and fish town where important to the story. Whats wrong with the movement? It was basic but worked fine. Also you dont need to defend my english to other anons, if i make a mistake in grammar its on my own.
>>378089297
He did his best, which is more then anyone else can fuckin say.

>>378089441
>I made no point for the gameplay. I only mentioned writing in my post. What're you on about?
That's my point m8, this is a videogame first and foremost. Even if it has the best writing of all time, the gameplay brings the whole experience down.

>>378089698
>He did his best, which is more then anyone else can fuckin say.

That doesn't fucking matter, a weak man cannot be a good man in Olathe, because he has no power.

>>378089815
If you're looking for a fantastic RPG, Lisa isn't it. The gameplay is decent, the combo mechanic is a little interesting compared to other RPG Maker games. If gameplay > all else where writing, characters, and music don't mean anything, why would you play this game?

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>>378090129
The strongest man alive was killed by a little girl. Power is kind of relative in the world of lisa. Im pretty sure if brad hadnt killed half of the Rando army solo she wouldve been ok. Specially considering the mutant faction wouldve protected her.

>>378089441
>Hence, a lot of ellipses and flashbacks
Literally every none-joke character talks in a brief and ominous manner though (Rando and Buzzo) and even if it was a purely emotional game, it's stunted by retarded tone shifts that add nothing to anything.

"no but it makes the sad scenes worse" No, this random fish lawyer making "yo momma" jokes does not heighten the tragedy of Brad dying in any way.

I know that Lisa is trying to do the "feels" thing but I also think it's trying to splice it with complexity. It's meant to be a "a universal tragedy" and a "deep, detail-oriented game" (like you'd understand who the fuck Buzzo was or why he hated Brad if you didn't pay attention and Joyful among other things) and these things do not mix. This is also why I think it's pretentious. I could try to explain why I think this more if you want.
>>378089698
I can barely understand this one but here I go.

It means that Brad doesn't have much to say- in the sense that there's nothing about the character to express. And no, I feel there's little story to begin with and that there could have been if Brad had any personality other than "stoic and near mute"

I don't see the appeal of the characters. The game world had minimalistic building of "sad and bored men fucking around/raider shit". Your conversations were never long and never said anything character-specific or more in-depth than "they ignore it and do dumb shit" "get mad and raid", "become sex-obsessed" "be sad". It's not exactly alien either, because it explains the desperation of the Army (and their seemingly(?) delusional belief that Brad will end life?)

Those are extraneous additions to the "story" at best (which is really just a stretched out "your princess is another castle" sort of thing.)

Endless pits next to doors. Endless pits in general. Slow walking and climbing speeds. Constant backtracking. Clunky movement- one area forces you to do platforming with it in order to progress the story.

>>378079762
t. lisa dev

Not sure if it's relevant but Dragons Dogma. I had heard no hype of it, seen it get around 7s on major review sites, and thus had no expectations - it was cheap and I was longing for an open world game. Turned out to be one of the best games I've ever played.

>>378090287
The combo mechanic adds near nothing to the game.

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>>378090380
If your legit feel its not that good of a turn based story driven game, what do you consider good. Because i really do feel lisa is one of the better games ive played and would be interested in something better.

>>378090287
Am I the only one who though child of light had excellent combat?

>>378090380
>TFW you almost hit the character limit.
>>378090632
Just going to give you another "indie earthbound inspired jrpg"; I've played OFF which was a pretty fun game. It's more of an atmosphere piece than anything and it did have some writing aspects that bugged me but it was fun to progress through. The timing mechanic adds a lot more to the combat than Lisa's stupid combo mechanic and the music is a lot better as well.

>>378090632
>>378090810
To add to that, while I don't think OFF is really good or anything, nothing about how it was written was infuriating to me like in Lisa. Lisa just gives off a very pompous "please figure me out" aura and when I tried to think about the game, I realized how haphazardly it was written and developed. A French game, of all things, ironically felt a lot less pretentious.

>>378090380
>I could try to explain why I think this more if you want.
Go for it. I find that the "universal tragedy" portion isn't that sophisticated at all, it only makes Brad's actions more ridiculous. He fucked up with one little girl in his shitty past, and now he's given another chance (but haha it's the apocalypse). I would summarize Lisa as a story of a broken man and the bits and pieces you stitch together as a player to figure out why he does what he does. The detail-oriented part of it is just giving the player tidbits to put together Brad's story at a certain pace. Lisa takes apocalyptic scenarios in a different way than a lot of the other post-apocalypse fad games in that it deals with how random hopeless individuals react to the setting. So, the NPCs acting like idiots or 2deep4u edgelords serves to build the world around Brad. You made a valid point earlier in that the biggest conflict is Brad vs. the world.

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>>378090810
>>378091173
Ok, ill play OFF, but honestly if you cant come up with more and theres barely a game better then lisa and its only your harsh criticism maybe consider lisa is the best thing as far as the genre is considered. Like yeah its not perfect but its far from bad.

>>378090673
I haven't played it. What makes the combat intriguing?
>>378090810
I've been thinking about playing OFF for a while but haven't gotten into it. I love Lisa's music, so if the music is better that's a good selling point. What else is interesting about it?

>!

Wow, hi Cracked. Fucking niggers.

>>378089059
>games must explore their themes
I guess you like to play all those games that explore sexuality and women's role in society, huh?

>>378090632
What other games in the same genre have you played?

>>378091419
Nah, there are more. I'd say Persona 4 or whatever but I wanted to give something similar to Lisa. OFF is miles better than Lisa by the way; I consider Lisa dreadful.
>>378091389
But if it was meant to be "universal", the details should all be apparent and they sort of are, initially. Brad goes "muh chance to redeeM myself" which is enough to make the story work but then the tidbits are thrown into the game in an attempt to make the situation seem more nuanced than it is. It's not. Brad's character is exactly as it seems but now you fully understand how little control he had over the previous situation. If these details were added in for a character study, then you need a character to study. Brad is one-dimensional. For fuck's sake, you could have made this apparent in the opening, overly-long cutscene but they focused on "lol bullying" instead.

That's more of a rationalization than anything- yes, they're connected on the most basic thematic level possible but their tone isn't justified by this. You could obviously make deluded people playing out their fantasies in a seemingly hopeless world funny and also terrifying and miserable but Lisa feels content to 99% of the time go "hahaha what power rangers? XD!".

That's not what Brad vs. the world is connected to though.
>>378091759
Again, it's just kind of an atmosphere piece. The tone is very consistent and the tidbits about the surrealist worlds you travel to are enticing while still making them feel mysterious and absurd. It's hard to put into words what is good about it besides "muh atmosphere" but it provides a very solid playing experience with a completely thematically consistent story and character arc. The metanarrative aspects were kind of cringey though.

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>the drug-fueled autism in this thread
holy shit, your superiority complex is showing

>>378091759
They have a turned based combat system, in that no one can mess with you as you make your move, but every character and enemy has a individual "cooldown" between their moves which is represented by their portrait moving across a bar. Once their portrait makes it to the active zone they get to make their move, which has a cast time. If a character gets hit during their cooldown period nothing happens expect they take damage, but when they get when in the active zone they get damaged, knocked back on the timeline and any attack they were about to cast gets canceled. Thus if you make it the the active zone and start winding up a big slow attack just as an enemy is about the enter his active zone, chances are he will counter you with a swift attack. In the same way you can prevent an enemy with powerful attacks from ever acting by timing your attacks so you always knock him back from the active zone. There are different abilities which you can use to manipulate the speed which different characters progress during the cooldown phase, and also prevent the knockback etc. The game has goofy characters and pretty tame story, but the combat is simple yet addicting.

>>378092041
If a game presents a theme and then doesn't explore them, then that's kind of fucking retarded, sorry.

And funnily enough, you could interpret Lisa as being a game about toxic masculinity when you take into account his Twitter rants, lol.
>>378092179
>superiority complex
What?

I've been fairly open with people, Anon. I don't know you thought I came off as condescending.

If you'd like to talk about the game, we can.

>>378092281
*know why

>>378092132
The spreading out of backstory just paces out what could be placed in the beginning, yes. It seems like this only serves for a first playthrough (or second playthrough if you don't catch most of it the first time) for pacing out events where Brad acts irrational or exaggerated and then giving more reason why he's gone as far as he has. Realistically, this falls flat beyond the point where you understand all of his story. Brad is one-dimensional, once you know everything about him you know that he will pursue Buddy against all else because of his past. It's primarily a story told with well-placed past and present traumatic events staggered together that you enjoy on the first telling. Again, this focuses on "muh feelings". I enjoyed Lisa through two playthroughs and Joyful through one, because it was way worse. Essentially, I find that Lisa boils down to one emotional rollercoaster and then people reflect back on it to comment on certain fucked up bits. Some fans do take it way too far for points of depth and pretentiousness.

>>378083846
At least she did shit on screen, Yado is important to the game's setting then he does fucking nothing on-screen, and you don't even get to kill him. He is the biggest wasted potential in the series.

>>378082570
Depression and drug abuse are hardly good themes, same as ripping off children of men.
Shit like Lisa and Night in the Woods being hailed as good stories reminds me how criminally under-read /v/ is.
Plus the actual gameplay is pure fucking trash.

>>378093029
>Depression and drug abuse are hardly good themes

But those are the themes for plenty of great novels?

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>>378093029
reading doesnt equal vidya. Games have a long way to go to be even close to lit. But as far as games go, lisa's come farther then most vidya stories.

>>378082056
/thread. OP is a retard

>>378093291
>>378093029
There is no such thing as good or bad themes, it's all about the execution.
Also, the fact that they added gameplay as an afterthough makes the exploration of those themes a fucking tedious mess even if they could work on their own.

>>378092915
Then the pacing of the flashbacks is borderline non-existent. If the inciting incident of his trauma was made 100% clear in the beginning then there would be no need to interject scenes with flashbacks to explain them like it's a Wikipedia article or something. Having it be apparent immediately would obviously be more cathartic than constantly disrupting the flow with constant flashbacks.

Alongside this, Buzzo's monologues, Rando's connection to Brad (which doesn't make much sense except on a "feels" level despite this only being apparent on close inspection) and Marty randomly showing up could have all had more impact if they weren't all muddled with Lisa's need to shroud what should be obvious information and then make it nonlinear so that it appears to be a larger puzzle than it actually is.

Lisa is also, as I've implied, way longer than it needs to be because the main "plot" is just fucking around with joke characters and getting flashbacks until you eventually find Rando's Army. It's such a bloated and unorganized game for such a simple concept that I can't help but feel its intentions are beyond just "feels" and that it wants to be "deep"

Brad's "story" or so it where is undeveloped even on its own because he ends up not feeling like he fulfilled himself for... some reason? That isn't shown or developed throughout the game at all because Brad never talks or shows any personality beyond "ellipses man"

Look at the OP picture, Anon. This shit obviously takes itself way too seriously.
>>378093349
>But as far as games go, lisa's come farther then most vidya stories.
No, lol.

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>>378093627
What would you consider good story telling in vidya then? Considering the medium is based on interactive storytelling most fail.

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>Care about writing.
>Things like the TWD, Life Is Strange, and Lisa are praised for "good writing."
>MFW

>>378093820
"Storytelling", I'm not sure. There are tons of games where I like bits and pieces of the writing but never really the aspect of its story or storytelling. Or even the game's writing as a whole.

I generally don't like the writing of vidya either but unlike you, that whole-heartedly includes Lisa.

>>378093820
Hotline Miami
Super Metroid
Breath of the Wild
Bastion

Also the last part of Red Dead Redemption deserves a mention

>>378093820
>>378094217
Well, actually, this anon did give me an example, I guess. Hotline Miami's storytelling is perfect for the story it's trying to tell and its writing is solid for what it is.

Thank you, anon.

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>>378093876
>>378094032
If you genuinely dislike it all, there must be a best. If you cannot put one above lisa then id say its lisa, but i suppose thats just me.
>>378094217
>>378094334
The first is purposely vague and the second is confounded, the overall idea being "what does violence solve". Not sure thats complex but my issue is its not interactive. The purpose if vidya is that its an interactive medium. Unline lit the end of the story isnt chosen from the get go. Its up to you. Hotline 1 is an amazing game that i also love, but its story isnt a good example of what vidya can do.
Which metroid? the general idea of fighting an alien force is rather simple though, in any case.
Botw in particular? I think Oot has more going story wise as far as interactivity but maybe i missed something?
I havnt played bastion, but I liked transistor if its at all comparable, although again, missing the interactivity.

>>378093627
I think I'm not fully getting my point across. I find that all events that take place in Lisa the Painful lead to Brad's suffering, which adds to the story of his emotional trudge through a shitstorm, which you can basically enjoy once unless you trawl through it for more tiny things you missed the first time. Pretty much any event that seems insignificant in some way can add to Brad's turmoil. The death of Sticky, Cheeks, and Rick all add to it. Brad gaining allies for the sole purpose of getting Buddy back, bonding with them, and losing them adds to it. Flashbacks add to it at certain intervals in the game. Do you think that all of the additions to Brad's trauma should be laid out right in front of you in one go? The main selling point of the game is emotional. If the "muh feelings" is a barrier for you, or if it isn't at a sufficient emotional depth for you, then these things are wasted on you. Although, this is my personal interpretation, and some things exist in the game for a laugh or just to be odd.

>>378094217
Bastion is a great example of video game storytelling that rarely comes up. Also, that fuckin' narrator. Good point.

>>378094693
I'm not saying the stories are particularly good (pretty subjective stuff), but that they fit and complement the gameplay, which should be a priority.
In all those games the story is unintrusive and given as much importance as the player wants it to have, instead of constantly interrupting the main focus of the games (gameplay in all of those).

>>378094693
>If you genuinely dislike it all, there must be a best.
I suppose. I generally really liked the world-building of NV but I consider a lot of it flawed. I haven't played much vidya in a while because I've been kind of busy but I guess it's that.

>Not interactive
>You literally can't change the outcome in the base game of Lisa.
Also, the punish mechanic is thematically garbled from the rest of the game and Brad's character so it's not exactly a good example. There are minor examples of C&C but really, you're going to use something like giving the dynamite to some random guys who blow up some random town for money an example for interactive storytelling?

I don't understand why you're pushing the "interactive" thing, especially in the case of Lisa.

HLM's gameplay complements its story pretty well anyway.
>>378094926
Death of his friends come at the start of the game, Brad literally doesn't care about his companions, and again, the flashbacks are irrelevant to storytelling. Lisa already starts off pretty fucking sad with its intro cutscene and I don't think it successfully "raised misery" from there. Until the supposed climax at the end. The emotions should come from the resolution of Brad's arc, not random NPC's dying (which only the player should care about) or flashbacks of largely irrelevant things. You can squeeze sadness into every moment without feeling manipulative, which it did, despite never really doing that consistently.

Funny things can be spliced in without feeling out of place. And once again, Lisa's presentation helps it fall apart for even that kind of specific story. It is simultaneously both too verbose and brief.

>>378095489
>Sticky and Rick die at the beginning
Brad kills them (although he doesn't necessarily kill Rick, that's up to the player). Does that have zero emotional significance? Also, how do you know that Brad doesn't care about any companions? His wordlessness lends as much to caring as not caring. You seem to insinuate that Brad (or any other character) not saying much takes away from their character. Do you need the characters to verbally convey their suffering or their state of mind when it's presented to you through their present choices and past happenstances? Lisa takes storytelling in a manner that is conveyed in different ways than books. If you want the depth or emotion conveyed through Lisa in writing, read Children of Men or The Road.

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>>378095489
Youre right. Im too easy on lisa, but only because i really havnt seen anything that much better in vidya. Its not that im not well-read, its just, theres so little to take away from the interactive medium. At the very least your choices change something in a semi-meaningful way.

>>378096092
You should not compare vidya with any other traditional medium, or visual novels for that matter.

>>378096039
>Brad kills them (although he doesn't necessarily kill Rick, that's up to the player). Does that have zero emotional significance?
I forgot about that bit, so yeah, lol. Nobody mentions them in in their conversations on the game so I guess everyone shares the sentiment. It's kind of silly too, because, again, it doesn't really add much to Brad or the story.

He can literally get them killed for his arms. He generally seems annoyed when he does interact with them, as well. But yeah, Brad is basically a non-character, though I think it's evident he's apathetic towards them as he only really talks to his friends or Buddy- people who he's attached to.

No, I don't but Brad doesn't do much either- his actions are literally silence or "muh lisa"- his past also adds up to "muh lisa". His entire character is his single-mindedness and that's silly.

Books can describe things without the characters saying it. Lisa doesn't take on the form of a book though, it offers no other real descriptors other than dialogue. In fact, besides item descriptions, I don't think there's a single thing written in the game that isn't the voice of a character.
>>378096092
They change only gameplay and add in an extra flashback at the end- I don't think this is a good example of interactive storytelling. This change of gameplay is thematically understated by a multitude of other things too.

>>378096039
>>378096618
And more on characters, they don't have to state what their feelings are but it is an expression of personality. Brad's suffering leading up to "mute guy" is so underwhelming and dull for something that's supposedly surrounding his arc and character study. The situations presented in the story don't give you much to interpret of them; Brad is obsessive and apathetic to others, Rando idealizes Brad but is a bad leader, and Buzzo hates Brad for some reason. The history given, while explaining all of this, is minimalistic and the story of Lisa basically amounts to Rando and Buzzo talking to a brick wall at random points of the story because Lisa's plot lacks complexity. Character actions in a vacuum like "brad runs around and occasionally bumps into rando and buzzo" are miniscule compared to what they say... and they obviously don't say much.

>>378096618
>>378097050
I'm starting to get really sloppy with these posts so I should head off soon.

>>378096618
>He can literally get them killed for his arms.
This is the significance of the player. You are presented with Brad's burdens/silent disposition and the choices you make in the game ultimately have the same beginning and outcome. However, you shape how he goes about them. Brad can get Terry and lose both arms to keep him and kill off every other companion. You can keep certain companions and shun others. All of your companions die in the end, if you give a shit about them or not. You can play Brad as an isolated, doesn't-give-a-fuck-about-anyone loner, and then the end bit where you kill your companions doesn't affect you as the player nor does it affect Brad. If you immerse as Brad, then your actions become his actions, even if the beginning and end are the same. That's why the beginning and end have emotional weight.

>>378096618
>>378097050
>>378097147
If you head off, have a nice night. I enjoyed the back 'n forth.

>>378083204
My nigger, i was too much of a brainlet to beat all the 4 games of darkest fear though, my favorite .jar game was this one 3D resident evil, it was RE2/RE3/RE Degeneration segmented in missions with a bossfight (nemesis, licker, horde of zombies, hunter, Mr X) every 10 levels, it played like a slightly clunky RE1 and there were only two weapons but the graphics and gameplay blew my fucking mind at the time, i couldn't believe i had PS1 graphics on a mere 3 MB powered by my 3" nokia phone whose best game was snake, i'm not even sure if anyone here knows what i'm talking about.

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>>>378079841
>lisa
>crappy

Nu-Doom wasn't half bad

>>378097195
Brad is an established character; either giving him this choice doesn't make sense or they're both valid in his eyes. If it's the latter, then yeah, Brad really doesn't care and uses them to help him get what he wants. He has no qualms about killing anyone who gets in his way (intentionally or not) so I don't see why this is so hard for you to see.

And no, again, Brad is an established character. He isn't a silent protagonist because he's meant to be a POV, he's a silent protagonist because he's an insane person. The choices you make not mattering in the end 1. Is infuriating in the sense of "why even give me the choice" and 2. Muddles the theming of the story even further.
Was Brad fucked from the start? Wasn't the point that it was Brad's self-destructive decisions that lead him here? If not, then what? He's just victim of circumstance? Why take away accountability like this? Or this just a "have your cake and eat it too" scenario where Dingaling wanted C&C and also a defined story?

I honestly don't see Brad's character being selfless anyway and the same thing applies to Buzzo forcing Brad to eat Joy. What is the point of Brad if all of his and your accountability are taken away? Why even have choices like this? I understand that Brad is not rational, but the story is meant to show how he went about his trauma the wrong and dedicated himself to an obsession for arguably selfish reasons- Buzz's irrational treatment of him and him being selfless in the first place (alongside it not mattering) make this a non-point.

It makes it a completely different kind of tragedy.
>>378097629
I dunno', Anon, I'm not really making sense anymore. I've had an idea on this point for a while but I'm expressing it really poorly in this post.

>>378097945
>Lisa
>not crappy

>>378097945
It is pretty mediocre though. 6/10, Undertale did everything it attempted better. Joyful legitimately ruined everything and knocked it down to something like 2/10.

Not baiting, honest fact.

>>378097195
>>378097975
I forgot to mention that if Brad had no control over his situation; his rage with Joy would be completely unrelated to his autonomy/better judgement (when a lack of better judgement is meant to be fundamental to his character). If Brad never took Joy and saved his companions, his actions in the main story have less meaning to his character. He becomes a different sort of person.

Hard to explain, I'm sure I have it written somewhere.

>>378097975
>>378098208
Sorry for doing this in three posts, but I guess fucks up the theming because Brad is an established character and him acting in two different ways despite having the same past and acting in the same way in the same main story is fucking stupid and had to have massive oversights and contrivances made to ensure both possibilities when the sacrifice mechanic in the game is pretty thematically disconnected (Buzzo included)

>>378097975
You define Brad's actions in a startlingly singular fashion. If he acts selfish in that he is obsessed with getting Buddy back he can't ever act in a selfless manner? He cannot form meaningful bonds with companions while he is on a journey of singular purpose? He is not just insane, he is dealing with a massive emotional weight and deals with it in a fashion you choose. The fact that your choices don't matter in the end doesn't make Brad's choices beforehand useless. At the end of our lives, we die. The stuff in the middle doesn't matter? Thematically they are purposeless? You are attempting to lump everything together as one singular conclusion. The nature of a video game implemented story is that it is more interactive than other formats. Hence, the player choices as Brad matter, even if the end result is the same. You define Brad's character. Your takeaway from this video game is defining Brad by the things you have no control over, his words, the beginning, the end, but that is taking away anything that makes this a game. The story doesn't need to have a moral or meaning, it isn't preaching something unless you believe it to.

>>378098764
No, not really. The entire point is that he kills anyone who gets in his way and doesn't talk unless it's about Buddy- his obsession has consumed him. He doesn't care about Buzzo monologuing. He doesn't care about Rando giving him things. He doesn't say "thanks" to people who join him. He is ridiculously one-dimensional; he is entirely defined by his obsession and apathy.

Yes, it does, from a vidya perspective. And also from a character one- Brad died in a manic rage (caused by Buzzo) attempting to fulfill his obsessive desires- him trying to come off of Joy? Doesn't matter. Him being selfless to others? Doesn't matter. It makes it two radically different kind of "stories" but the actual "story" never changes- its meaning becomes muddled and the Buzzo situation was made to ensure that it'd happen no matter what and all of it just so fucking bizarre.

Except it isn't really interactive, and the things that do have meaning in the story don't click perfectly with both endings, and you don't actually define Brad's character to any real extent- you simply confuse it. A game can be a game without you making the characters, anon. There are still battles.

And the story does have a meaning and moral; It is totally preaching to you- it's the very purpose of a story. If there is absolutely zero message then why should I feel anything? Because bad things happen? I don't think anyone is stupid enough to make a story like this- not even Dingaling. Brad's choices were supposed to lead him down this path, his obsession was meant to destroy him- that's the tragedy of it. And that's apparent for most of the game except for the choices which can make the scene with Buzzo and Joy turn into "buzzo forcing brad to go crazy and evil" instead of something more of Brad's own volition (which this stupid fucking plot element wouldn't be anyway.) 1/2.

>>378099668
2/2 Brad's dissatisfaction with himself at the end is supposed to relate to this deluded obsession- that's, theoretically, his arc. The choices don't change the story, they simply muddle the story and characters that are established in things you can't change. It's stupid as Hell.

>>378099668
>>378099781
I'm sorry, I think we disagree on a very fundamental nature. I don't believe a story has to preach something to be of worth. Regardless, this has been enjoyable, but I'm gonna go watch Fargo.

>>378100432
If it isn't trying to be pure entertainment (which Lisa isn't), and is trying to be an actual story, I don't think it should go all post-modern and have no clearly defined point.

Regardless, I think it's apparent that Lisa had very apparent things it wanted to convey, it just really fucking sucks at it.