how do we fix the mmo genre?

>>378057016
Undo the damage WoW and FFXIV have done to the genre by making it explicitly social.

If you want to solo in an MMORPG, or otherwise not interact with other people at all, you can fuck right off to single player offline RPGs. There are countless options for that.

get rid of monthly subs. make combat more involved/real-time rather than cool-down based. look i just fixed mmos

>>378057958
>get rid of monthly subs.
yeah just what it needs, retarded children in every community

>make combat more involved/real-time rather than cool-down based.
are you dumb, nigger? the cooldowns are there because of latency, which you're not going to erase with your magical wand of "lol make it realtime!" the only way you minimize the latency issue is my minimizing number of packets sent to the server, which means doing an instanced lobby game like Phantasy Star Online. and that's not an MMO. an MMO has hundreds of people in one zone.

/v/ apparently doesn't know jack shit about making games, so I don't know why >>378057016 is even bothering to ask

>>378058483
wait why can't the combat be like PSO though. there is enough delay in the animations in those games to account for latency. not even going to address you first point since it's retarded.

>>378057792
WoW is the only reason we have popular MMO games. They would have always been U:O/FFXI/runescape/ETC levels of junk

>>378058714
>They would have always been the peak of the genre
Yes, that's the point

get rid of the followings
classes
stats
levels
skills
loot system

basically lets make it less videogamey
like a true sandbox experience
get rid of numbers
no more cookiecutters
free crafting and equipping without limitations like stats and levels
limited resources in the world
free building
free actions without limitations for example cant attack friendly npcs and players

>>378058675
>wait why can't the combat be like PSO though.

I outright said it, up to hundreds of people per zone. when you have 100 people in a zone, every action and movement that one player makes, like dealing damage to a monster, or jumping, or moving to coordinate <45.5,30,30> is sent to the other 99 players in the zone in a packet. that packet is received by the server, sent out, and everything is updated in a tic. the more people, the more packets, the more affected everyone is by lag. assuming everyone of the 100 jumps does one action every 1 second, that's 9,900 updates right there, for something utterly trivial, being routed across oceans.

4 people in a zone like PSO means 12 packets. that's why online action games cannot be compared to MMOs whatsoever

>>378057016
Animal Crossing MMO

>>378058714
>WoW is the only reason we have popular MMO games.

oh great it's the Justin Bieber argument. go listen to him then since popularity is apparently the only thing that matters

>>378059292
>Bieber
>Popular
Am I in 2011 again?

Bring back the support role, completely unrelated to healers. Make all classes clearly distinct from one another.
There, pretty much fixed.

>>378059393
>the Beatles
>Death Grips
>Ariana "the Bomb" Grande
>Drake
>Britney Spears
>all eurobeat

insert whatever popular garbage you want, doesn't change the reality

bring us more games like darkfall

What's wrong with FF14?

>>378057016

The MMOs aren't the problem. It's the people. If you get truly good communities where people are respectful to each other, the shittiest MMO will hit record-breaking numbers.

t. 5 year Everquest vet, back when shit was rainbows and lollipops.

>>378059718
>Everquest vet
damn. this nigger OG

>>378057792
>If you want to solo in an MMORPG, or otherwise not interact with other people at all, you can fuck right off to single player offline RPGs. There are countless options for that.

No, there's not. WoW, for example, has about 8,000 hours of gameplay for single players. Show me the single player game where someone without autism hits 8,000 hours of played time

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>>378059663
>dutyfinder, raidfinder
>low GCD, flashy spam
>due to that, you can go an entire dungeon without even speaking to your party members... in an MMORPG. what's the point of playing with other human people if you can just replace them with AI bots?
>overuse of instances
>craft economy fucked and undermined by the rest of the economy, namely BoP-style items and item rewards from quests (that being said, crafting classes themselves are actually well-designed)
>gear treadmill instead of horizontal progression
>being able to mostly solo to level cap means that you have retarded antisocial asshats trying to do endgame content without being "trained" to interact with others prior
Quite a lot actually. Some of it, like the excessive soloing, might have been fixed with a higher level cap since I last played, but the rest of it still stands.

make vr affordable

>>378057016
More games with RuneScapes questing system. Less emphasis on you being "THE CHOSEN ONE" when there are thousands of other chosen ones running around you.

>>378057016
Remake Mabinogi/do Mabinogi 2

Vindictus fags not welcome

>>378059718
This. People nowadays are fucking retards making partyplay unenjoyable. I actually am shocked when I get a nice party for a dungeon

>>378057016
>all mmo's suck now

Shit, is there any other genre that didn't become extinct because their games sucked?

>>378060250
>affordable
VR still hasn't solved walking, which is important to MMOs. Unless you seriously want to teleport everywhere like a retard

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>>378057016
kill it with fire

>>378057016
By making them all like EvE online and completely removing the leveling/skills system.

>>378057016
Bring back the social aspect. I know that some people don't have the time to find groups but in that case don't play a fucking MMO.
Stop trying to be WoW . If I wanted to play WoW I wouldn't play your game, I'd just renew my subscription. Stop taking WoW's features for granted, there can be more to a game than instanced PvE and battlegrounds.
Creating a consistent and immersive world should come first, even if it slightly inconveniences the player.
Bring back the RPG to MMORPG nowadays everything is so balanced and streamlined that it feels like you're playing a mmoba. A class is just a different rotation and a different color of spells. When was the last time it really felt like you felt one with nature while playing a Ranger instead of just being Ranged DPS#1613? Is a Paladin a holy crusader on a quest to rid the world of evil or is he just a warrior with flashier attacks?

>>378060428
it's called a treadmill.

>>378060598
>make treadmills affordable
Nice, now you're making it even more infeasible

>>378057016
We don't. The age of the MMO is over. Its successes were a product of the times and now times have changed.

>>378060698
Fucking what? Social media and technology has definitely improved after the golden age of MMO's, which means we can use it to resurrect them and make them better.

>>378057016
We don't. WoW has poisoned the well forever.The majority of MMO players just want more of the same and most of them came into the genre through WoW.
MMOs that try different always fail commercially.
Even if WoW dies tomorrow, developers will forever hunt that shekel with WoW clones.

>>378060571
>Bring back the social aspect. I know that some people don't have the time to find groups but in that case don't play a fucking MMO.
I agree with this but there are also ways to minimize downtime in finding a group without resorting to letting everyone solo.

The biggest albatross around the MMO neck (and a lot of other online games) is matching players up appropriately, whether that means level or skill. But if you think about an adventure, or a fairy tale, or whatever, how common really is it that a group of people are all equally skilled? Take a knight and a squire, do we really need to expect that squire to be level 49 alongside the level 49 knight?

If designers want to decrease time-to-find-party stats without resorting to retarded antisocial shit like a groupfinder, they need to solve the problem of asymmetric power relationships in adventures. A squire contributes to the party by helping out the knight as much as possible, whether that's saddling a horse, or helping don armor, or whatever. This support relationship is how you can have "inexperienced" people contribute to a high level experience, which allows more people to group together, which reduces party find time.

Make a mmo without gear or levels.

Oh wait you can't because people only play for progression and the idiots who play this genre can't think outside of the box to realize that mmos are shit to begin with.

>>378059718
But is people being insufferable cunts a cause or an effect?
Communities don't become good or bad because at random,some games create a sense of community while others destory it. A game that encourages people to group up and socialize will always have a better community than a shitty single player MMO.
I played WoW for enough time to see the community go down the shitted and it didn't happen because of black magic, specific features were introduced that completely ruined any sense of community and caused little kids to run rampant.

The question everybody is answering is "how do you make an MMO that reaches WoW numbers again" which will flat out never fucking happen. The only way to do that is to make a game that appeals to the "wider audience" and if your anus didn't clench as an automatic response to that phrase you need leave here until you turn 18.

The true answer is to stop fucking trying to make a game with the best graphics and an epic 10,000 hour long fully voiced story and make something with a lower budget that can afford to take some risks for the first time in nearly ten goddamn years

>>378060571
These. There needs to be real incentive to communicate and interact with other players. Do it through challenging content that requires coordination, profession limits that encourage trading and bartering, and tangible benefits to grouping, i.e. safety in numbers.

Fuck all of these faggots that pretend to have played vanilla yet clearly can't appreciate these basic principles.

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>>378057016
Remove ability to do split-clears
Remove ability to stack potions and pre-pot before combat. Taking advantage of game mechanics in general.
Make it so not clearing all current content every week and not logging in every day is an acceptable way to play and skipping 1-4 weeks doesn't make you useless.
Playing MMOs at high level these days is an absolute nightmare compared to comfy days of old. Fuck whoever came up with split clearing and raiding as soon as servers come up on content release day. Those faggots fucked everything up FOREVER.
So the only solution is to delete genre and/or people's memory and start over again.

We wait for Valve to release the one they've been working on.

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>>378057016
You can't.
You could make a game just like back then, but the people playing games now are not the same kind of people anymore.

They're nu gamers used to the likes of Hearthstone, Overwatch, League of Legends, mobile games and who knows what.

The average gamer nowadays no longer wants to truly socialize in games. Which goes against the very ESSENCE of what makes MMORPGs good, whether people want to hear it or not: socializing and playing with and against other people.

The more you take away from this, the worse the game will become.
WoW learned that lesson with the dungeon finder that was brought in during WotLK. That was the beginning of the end for that game.

>>378060981
The golden age of MMOs was when they were one of the only meaningful ways to interact online. Now there are thousands of ways to do that. I played FFXI for over five years and you just can't go back.

>>378061157
>If designers want to decrease time-to-find-party stats without resorting to retarded antisocial shit like a groupfinder, they need to solve the problem of asymmetric power relationships in adventures. A squire contributes to the party by helping out the knight as much as possible, whether that's saddling a horse, or helping don armor, or whatever. This support relationship is how you can have "inexperienced" people contribute to a high level experience, which allows more people to group together, which reduces party find time.

Log Horizon (anime/LN set in an MMO) had an interesting work around for this. The "Mentor" system set a player's stats and equipment levels down to match the levels of those being mentored so that the ones being mentored could still gain XP while being guided by a presumably more experienced player.

How about having this built into the group finder, with a chance to find either gear appropriate for your actual level or rare cosmetics that don't drop unless you're Mentoring somebody?

>>378059718
The thing is EQ was filtering retards with the xp penalty and every single max level had a clue about what they were doing.

Modern MMO want the retarded audience and even punish actual good players that dont want to carry scrubs.

>>378061157
I'm all for asymmetric game design and having different players pull their weight in different ways. Of course there would have to be some limits to how effective someone can be based on his level.
But I really love the idea of a thief not being that useful in combat compared to the warrior but still helping his group by deactivating traps, disabling enemies with smoke bombs and tranquilizing darts and giving everyone extra loot by unlocking chests, or a mage being capable of dealing incredible damage but having to be protected by the rest of his team while performing his rituals.
Of course this would never work in a modern sandbox MMO where combat is based on the holy trinity and a player's worth is determined by how big his numbers are.

>>378057016
By just playing FFXI on a private server. FFXI was the peak of MMORPG's.

>>378062547
It was a good game but my personal MMORPG peak was pre-cu (and especially pre-nge) SWG

Basically, SWG before they WoW-ified it.

>>378062542
Didn't Wildstar an asymmetric style

>>378062547
>By just playing FFXI on a private server.
I do actually, but it doesn't have enough of a population to sustain 6 player parties. Level sync does help though

>>378062542
"CHECK MY PARSE BRO HOLY SHIT THE PARSE UGH WE PARSED BADLY"

One of the many things that ruined WoW
desu the game would've been better off had they disallowed mods all together

>>378062701
They still had classic PVE and a holy trinity roles so I don't know how that would work.
They probably threw it around as a buzzword while showing their game to the public.

>>378062940
Found the shitter that cant pull his weight.

YOU are the problem go be a terrible player in another genre.

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Dataminers killed MMOs. Prove me wrong.

Improve hardware and infrastructure to be able to properly move away from existing stereotypes and mechanics. Once we can get 50 people interacting together in a real-time sense we'll start moving in the right direction. Games like DayZ and PUBG have the right idea, but unfortunately the hardware and network speeds just aren't there to properly support it yet

>>378062701
Wildstar would've been a perfect MMO if it didn't do 2 things:
>have fairly incompetent developers that fucked up the experience for casuals
>reset raider's gear and game system over 3 times
They essentially killed their own game by fucking over both of their player groups and that is why it is still a wreck even after going F2P.

>>378063075
Not him but you sound like an autistic sperg who values numbers more than the actual people playing the game.

Antisocial herpes warts like you belong in offline RPGs to be honest. You can have your big numbers popping up there.

It's an unfixable genre, inherently flawed and destined for the garbage.

>>378062940
Even though I don't like it that's what WoW is about. If your numbers are subpar you are holding your team back. I want a game where numbers don't matter because everyone has a different role.
>>378062542
>in a modern sandbox
I meant themepark. I always get that wrong.

>>378063310
You see I want to play with people that are both enjoyable to group with and arent retarded.

You can do decent damage in any MMO with very minimal research, not my problem if some are either too lazy and/or stupid.

>>378063667
>You see I want to play with people that are both enjoyable to group with and arent retarded.
So go play with AI bots who equip exactly what you want them to and are exactly the level you want to grind them up to.
Your personality deficiencies are better left to a genre that's offline, not online.

>>378058714
>XI
>Junk
You mean XIV.

>>378063821
Cute

>>378063301
Wildstar's mistake was it released too early and made a bad first impression. then when f2p came around they didn't beef up their servers so people fucked off again after a week of unplayable lag. After around drop 4 the game was good and still is, but by then nobody cared and they still don't.

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I'm hoping pantheon will bring me back. I really miss that old feeling of having a dangerous world to explore that you have to be careful in.

Also clearly defined class roles and interdependence.

The icing on the cake is that PvE and PvP servers will be balanced separately.

>>378064209
>Released too early
That meme needs to stop. WildStar was actually released way too late. Development started as Burning Crusade hit the shelves. All the core game loops were made with 2007 in mind.

Obviously when you release that in 2014, that doesn't work anymore. The populace wasn't willing to put the effort toward 40-man raiding anymore. God even fucking level 35 dungeon was just wrecking most players. Getting attuned to the raid (just attuned!) couldn't even be reached by 1% of players. Players were unable to Silver medal Kel Voreth or Skullcano, let alone SSM.

More time wouldn't have solved this. Carbine had 7 fucking years to put their game out, ncsoft gave them time. Wildstar was in CBT for over whole year. (CBT 3 was summer 2013, release was june 2014).

Carbine was just stuck in 2007. Yes the game had bugs and some issue but frankly it was far from game breaking. I made it to lv50 just fine, so did lots of players. Only had like 3 quests in my journey to 50 that were completely broken.

>>378064767
>WildStar was actually released way too late
>released before there was anything to keep casuals playing
>released before progression hindering bugs were fixed
>released before raid itemization was changed
>released before the top tier raid was properly tuned
>released before a ton of QoL additions were implemented
Nah, it was released too early.

>>378063821
>>So go play with AI bots who equip exactly what you want them to and are exactly the level you want to grind them up to.

This is actually what I hoped Warlords of Draenor would be. Once you reach Cap and get your Garrison, you gather a party of NPCs and it basically turns into an RTS MMO as your main character is supported by his team of NPCs), with Raids having each player bringing their team of NPCs so it becomes one giant clusterfuck of players

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>>378064767
I'm still mad they removed 40man raiding. The F2P with 3rd gear reset AND no content for 1+ year just killed the game for me.

>>378065603
>he actually likes 40 raiding
The fact that you even did it means I can narrows the guilds you could've been in to like 2 or 3. 40 man raiding was a mistake.

Good optimization
More sandbox
Be able to create actual huge towns
Meaningful stat and skill progression
Better lore and immersion
No AFK mechanics
Mechanics that naturally promote social interactions
Fun crafting
Impossible to P2W
Classes with their own distinct flavor and playstyle
Pvp, large scale sieges, 2v2/3v3/6v6, with good rewards

>>378065119
Open your eyes god dammit, casuals churned before even being done with the content that was available on day 1.

Going through Whitevale was a fucking pain and again the average Joe wouldn't even be able to clear Skullcano (Normal). The last boss was considered already "Raid-tier" by your typical MMO noob. "omg I have to run clockwise OR counterclockwise while dodging stuff and sprinting!".

Raid itemization? Who care pretty much no one reached that level. Do you know how many boxes of wildstar were sold? Do you know how many players managed to set a foot in the 20-man raid?

The success of a game isn't determined by its end-game if no one make it there in the first place.

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>>378060294
>Game story isn't about you being the chosen one
>"WOW FUCK YOU TRAHERNE STOP HIJACKING MY STORY"
>Game story is about you being the chosen one
>"WOW HOW UNORIGINAL"
Runescape suffered from the same problem in Sixth Age quests even when 95% of Runescape quests before the Sixth Age were pretty much adventures and tasks

>>378065603
They removed a feature that did cost a team and tons of man-hours and benefited <1% of players.

40-man shouldn't ever have been made. Just like Warplot (Have you SEEN Warplots?)

>>378066424
Plenty of people made it to cap. The problem then became the bugs and unfinished state of the content pushed people away. Attunement was a chore because some parts of it were bugged. Then if you actually got to raiding you were kicked in the balls again when the gear that was dropping wasn't any better than trash you'd get in a dungeon.

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>>378065850
It sure was fun while it lasted though.

>>378066774
>Just like Warplot
Fuk u, warplots could've been cool, the problem was the pvp """lead""" didn't give a fuck. I remember when they were supposed to do testing on it during beta she missed it for some asinine reason.

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How is FFXI nowadays? Two of my buddies are interested and the menu-based combat seems nice.

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>>378066774
>warplots
Holy shit I already forgot how awful and exploitable that was. I did participate in like 5 while I was playing. There is probably still a video of my guild wrecking others on youtube somewhere.

>>378066819
>avatus
Make that 2 guilds, and since I see aurin I'm going to say world last.

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>>378057016
Since we're talking about MMOs, any good sandboxes out there with little to no PVP?
Asking for a friend.

>>378066810
Plenty in value, sure. Plenty in ratio compared to the total amount of players? Not really. Way too many people churned early.

As for getting attuned, the amount of people able to clear Skullcano or SSM with Silver Medal was extremely scarce. Raiding Guilds had to do carry run constantly in order to recruit.

>>378066984
"Could have", that's pretty much the same for everything in Wildstar but Housing. Raids could have been amazing too.

And don't get me wrong I have lot of respect for Jen and her work on Warplots, but there was no way such a thing would succeed in 2014 when all what players can do is click a big [PLAY NOW] button and wait to be put in a match with roughly 50% chance of winning (basically the matchmaking system in all multiplayers games nowadays).

Warplots required raid-tier organization to be won. You're far from your average Battleground in MMOs where everyone FFA.

>>378067248
Are they still around? I miss those guys.

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WHY THE FUCK AREN'T YOU PLAYING FFXIV STORMBLOOD

>>378067308
>Raids could have been amazing too.
Nah, raids are amazing. Pve content, combat, and housing are the things that make wildstar worth anything.

>>378062660
well you're a fool. the game was an unbalanced death grind that had just a dash of fun in it to lure people into the death grind

people started to drop out because of the death grind, they repackaged the game and overall from their perspective it probably was a success because they sifted loads of money out of all the death grind victims

>>378067391
I hear they're fixing the combat, does it still play like WoW? that's why I quit.

>>378067345
Of course not. A bunch of hardcore raiders fucked off when releasing RMT was taking too long and the rest fucked off now that they have RMT on farm mode and no new content on the horizon.

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Do not support industrializing the economy.
Enable Runescape-style item loss on death to provide a more significant personal value to the items.
Make a tavern close by to most dungeons. From this tavern you can sign up for a raid on a bulletin board, and you're on the list so long as you stay in the tavern. You can eat and drink at the tavern to get buffs/debuffs. You don't need to get a raiding party to go into the dungeon, but doing so makes it instanciated and puts you all on the same "team" to prevent friendly fire, and not doing so puts you in the public instance where you can find others looting it.

All this does:
>Makes the player need personal interaction with other players
>"Punishes" the player for deaths by making them go to other players to get items of similar strength back
>Encourages both adventuring party-style group formation and lone wandering for dungeons, which have unique flavors to each
>Makes people go to the fucking tavern like how 90% of tabletop games start

>>378067391
>posts a mockup of 2.0 when it was dropped during 1.19/1.20
pls kys full stop
ironic shitposting is still shitposting

>>378059146
but club penguin got taken down anon

>>378067475
it plays like WoW but it doesn't feel like its a decade old

>>378061157
Make it so levels aren't as influential to power. The level 49 knight should be able to (and desire to) fight level 45 monsters with his level 28 squire. Hp is key here. The squire shouldn't be oneshot by the monster. The squire should also be able to hit the monster without damage penalty.

>focus more on the journey to the end game rather than the endgame itself
>put less focus on end game raiding, gearing and pvp and more on interaction with the world, adventuring and exploration
>more RP elements to the game
>stop balancing classes around PvP
>stop focusing too much on the plot and providing a cinematic experience
>less solo content
>stop trying to cater to all playerbases
>stop designing your game around fucking end raiding and gearing up

>>378067791
>it doesn't feel like its a decade old
You're right, it feels worse.

>>378067520
>A bunch of hardcore raiders fucked off when releasing RMT was taking too long
Understandable, that's why I left too. I wish things went better for Wildstar and we were all still playing it.

>>378067391
Is this actually worth playing now?
Mildly interested, even though I'm not that into FF aesthetic.

>>378067391
Download errors no matter what I do. Opening my ports nor using a VPN solves the issue. Shame too because I wanted a new MMO to play.