Who is the John Galt of vidya?

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>>377486708
Moviebob

>>377486708
Andrew Rynn maybe Atlas but he kinda shrugs off most labels.

my 6
AMA

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>>377486823
Wrong image, and they didn't had a similar filename, wtf

>>377486934
If Howard Roark rapes you, and it's consensual, was it rape?

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Who cares?

No one, because no one in videogames has ever given a single uninterrupted speech that is 80 fucking pages long.

Christ, I can't believe I actually read that whole book. It's just a bad book, if you HAVE to read something by Ayn Rand, read The Fountainhead.

>>377487163
>>377487102
The criticism to Ayn Rand's books, especially Atlas Shrugged, is among the most shallow I've ever seen. It's as if her work was so pathetic that it wasn't even worthy of real criticism, which is absurd.

>muh 50 pages of doom
>i-it insults my socialist ideas and makes me feel guilty :((
>the dialogue is clunky

Grow a fucking pair

>>377488289
You better renew your Police Subscription Gold + (tm) because I'm coming for your ass

>>377488289
Whatever you think of her beliefs, Rand is a shitty writer. If she wanted to get her ideas across so badly she should've written essays, not garbage fiction stories with poor plotting and shitty characters.

>>377488384
Idiot, you are paying for the police right now because of taxation. The difference is that you are also paying for a bunch of bureaucracy at the same time, and that the police you are paying for is mediocre and could be much better if it had to deal with competition.

I really don't understand this socialist mentality. You people act as if you get everything for free but you are paying for every single service you consume, the difference is that you pay more for less.

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>>377488289
To me it seems that Atlas Shrugged is severely overrated by some but also unduly criticized by many.
It does have clunky dialogue though.
Still better than Harry Potter shit.

>>377488289
>It's as if her work was so pathetic that it wasn't even worthy of real criticism, which is absurd.
But anon, it actually is.

>>377488506
What does taxation have to do with socialism?

Socialism is defined by control of the means of production, not by taxation

>>377488476
but after Atlas she did give up fiction and wrote, guess what? essays

>>377488687
I guess she learned her lesson, then.

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>>377488619
Socialism as the control of means of production is Marx's concept of socialism. But socialism has existed much before Marx. Read Frederic Bastiat, he used to criticize socialism during the first half of the 19th century. When Margaret Thatcher said the famous phrase "Socialism only works until other people's money run out" (or something like that) she wasn't referring to the "control of the means of production by the workers", but rather to the early concept of socialism: Collectivism.

Taxation is collectivism, so it is deeply related to that definition of socialism.

When libertarians criticize socialism, they are not referring exclusively to the Marxist one, most of the time it's a criticism to anyone that defends that individuals should sacrifice themselves and practice self-immolation for the benefit of the majority, of the collective.

>>377488289

No my problem is that the characters are fucking hypocrites. And I don't just mean the antagonists who are SUPPOSED to be hypocrites, I mean the protagonists too.

The book makes a big deal about how the accumulation of wealth is one of the highest virtues, and it says this quite a few times from Dagny herself. EXCEPT she shoots that in the foot when the project is nearing completion, she says that she would give all her wealth to stay in this moment forever. Which means that despite her constant expousing, what she actually values is the feeling of achievement.

Then there's Hank, who upholds so much value in the upholding of contracts, because he sees everything as a contract including his marriage. Yet despite that, he doesn't see cheating on his wife and having an affair as a breach of contract.

>>377488761
Libertarian values ain't gonna protect you from the mongols. That's what a national army is for.

>>377488910
hierarchy of values mate, Dagny valued that moment and those feelings above money. Is that so hard to grasp?

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>>377486708

>>377488506
>Idiot, you are paying for the police right now because of taxation. The difference is that you are also paying for a bunch of bureaucracy at the same time, and that the police you are paying for is mediocre and could be much better if it had to deal with competition.

I really don't understand people who think this, and then also think that the police will have any desire to protect you unless you're rich. They're going to protect whoever pays them most and no one else.

>>377488963
This would be true if modern States limited themselves to providing national security, but it's clearly not the case. Besides, if the individuals are capable of overthrowing the State, what makes you think the State is more able than these individuals at the task of defending them from other attackers?

>>377488761
You're right, Socialism has come a long way while Libertarianism is still stuck in the 1700s

and while I'm on the subject of money, reread Fransisco's speech about money again to get a more complete picture of her position on the subject

http://capitalismmagazine.com/2002/08/franciscos-money-speech/

>>377488985

Yes and that's why it's hypocrisy, because she says something and believes something else. It's literally the textbook definition of being a hypocrite.

At least the thread hasn't been jacked by the mental midgets that are AnCaps.

All the same, selfish prickery isn't a good way to run civilization.

>>377489041
They will protect whoever is paying for them and likely prioritize their best costumers, sure. What is the problem with that? Were policemen, by any chance, born with a debt that forces them to work for free for poor people?

>>377489071
You are not completely wrong, most of our pillars are pretty ancient, as expected from the only coherent ideology in the world. But the most influential authors are from the 20th century, like Rothbard and Hoppe.

>>377489202
I guess people who can't afford to pay cops should just be ok with getting shot by criminals then, huh.

>>377489045
>Besides, if the individuals are capable of overthrowing the State

That stopped being the case post WW1. Militaries are now too advanced for individuals to stop them. Not to mention in the US, you're taught to be seen as essentially a traitor to the country if you don't side with the troops (not necesarily the military itself, I mean the people fighting it).

>>377489202
>The only coherent ideology in the world
Hoo boy howdy, you're kind of a fucking conehead.

You're not gonna be a rich tycoon, and the ideals you hold so dear will kill you if actually applied.

>>377489202
>They will protect whoever is paying for them and likely prioritize their best costumers, sure. What is the problem with that? Were policemen, by any chance, born with a debt that forces them to work for free for poor people?
Because I'd rather not go back to feudalism. Which is what would happen.

>>377489202
>>377489275
It's the proper and ONLY function of a proper restricted government to provide for the defense of the rights of its citizenry through intervention with force against those who violate those rights. The hard part is getting people to accept and actually pay for voluntary taxation without re-bloating the government back out of its proper limits.

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>>377489275
Do you really think the individuals would be unable to come up with a plan that offers everyone the necessary security without having to force anyone into slavery or without robbing anyone?

Did you ever hear Milton Friedman's analogy about the pencil? Think of a pencil. That pencil was the product of the work of over one thousand of individuals from dozens of different countries. These individuals speak different languages, they hold different cultures, values, religions, and they still cooperated to produce a great pencil for a symbolic price, all thanks to the power of the free market. There was no single State that aided in the production of that pencil, all the State did was make it more difficult by adding tariffs and bureaucracy for exportation/importation of resources and materials.

Voluntary cooperation is amazing. The market is mind blowing. Think about all we can accomplish. If a given community has trouble with criminals, their individuals can easily reunite, discuss and come up with a plan. In the end, it's not about who is going to let us do it, but rather who is going to stop us, who is going to limit us, and right now the State is performing that task.

>>377489383

As much as I don't like beauracracy, the reality is it's necesary. If we weren't a country with a population of 330 million, yeah it wouldn't be needed, but we are. The only way anything can get done in any real fashion is through agencies whose sole purpose is to make sure things get done. The reality is that without the system we have, a lot of people would suffer or die from neglect.

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>>377489330
No one is a libertarian because of a promise of becoming rich. We are libertarians because we want to be free.

And if the result of freedom is annihilation, that simply means we are still alive because someone is being enslaved or robbed for our own survival, which is awful and must stop immediately, even if means our own death.

With that said, the result won't be death, that's just fear-mongering from dumb statists. Any challenges can be overcome by individuals through voluntarism.

>>377489617
>Free
The world is fine as is. I'm not sure what horrible dystopia you live in but it's not reality.

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So, to be the only vidya post in the thread, can we all agree: fuck Sophia Lamb right?

Most of humanity won't volunteer to make the world a better place for everyone, and anyone who gains enough power and wealth runs a high risk of becoming a tyrant.

Most people will enslave you if they can, and murder you if they can't. Humans are bastards. Without the rule of law, society will collapse and warlords will rise to take the state's place.

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>>377489694
The world is not fine, at all. Right now you are ruled by a vast criminal organization, a gang of thieves writ large - the most immoral, grasping and unscrupulous individuals in any society: The State.

The State! Organized banditry. What is taxation but theft on a gigantic, unchecked scale? What is war but mass murder on a scale impossible by private police forces? What is conscription but mass enslavement? Can anyone envision a private police force getting away with a tiny fraction of what States get away with, and do habitually, year after year, century after century?

You are like a slave that is telling to his comrade "I am not sure what horrible dystopia you live in but that's not reality", can't you see how better off we could be right now?

>>377489498
>Do you really think the individuals would be unable to come up with a plan that offers everyone the necessary security without having to force anyone into slavery or without robbing anyone?

Yeah dude it's called a police force.

>>377489864
I agree 100%.

Now tell me how that is a refutation of libertarianism. Are you under the impression that there is no law in libertarianism? Or that there is no law without the State? That's like confessing "I've never read a single libertarian book in my life" since libertarianism is primarily a juridic concept, it's absurd to say it has no laws.

What I hate about libertarians and AnCaps is the NAP. It just reeks of people that do everything in their power to avoid conflict, and it leaves society vulnerable to the people who don't give a shit about it.

>>377489498
>Do you really think the individuals would be unable to come up with a plan that offers everyone the necessary security without having to force anyone into slavery or without robbing anyone?

Do you think individuals could have done anything compared to a proper state army had the reds decided to invade the US?

I'm not trying to fearmonger, I genuinely think a third world war is inevitable, and I don't know where it will break out or why, but the reality is in the aftermath, sticking to your ideals is probably just going to get you killed.

>>377489617
Lol yes Voluntirism is going to defeat the drone armies of the future owned exclusively by the super rich

>>377489941
Libertarian ideas have their place in the world, but the full package just won't work as long as humans remain the greedy fucks they are.

>>377489945
>What I hate about libertarians and AnCaps is the NAP. It just reeks of people that do everything in their power to avoid conflict, and it leaves society vulnerable to the people who don't give a shit about it.
NAP is about not violating innocent people. And the NAP is also about fucking crushing the soul of whoever dares violate it.

If the reds were to violate a libertarian community, it'd probably be within the best interests of all individuals that live there to protect their property, their families and their community. Breaking the NAP with aggressive force against someone's physical integrity (body) is the easiest way to get you killed in libertarianism.

>>377489876
What is all that but avoidable? None of that stuff will ever happen to you or me. Only people who want to are the ones who sign up for war in first world countries. Taxes pay for things that I would like to use. If I didn't want to pay taxes I would just live out in the mountains, but I'd rather not do that so I pay.

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>>377489876
Down with the State!

>>377489876
>What is war but mass murder on a scale impossible by private police forces?

t. someone thats never fought in a war

>What is conscription but mass enslavement?

There hasn't been conscription in the US since Vietnam, and even that was 70% volunteeers.

I'm going to let you in on something anon. Most of us that joined the service either did for one of three reasons. Either you were poor and it was guaranteed employment, or you wanted to fight in a war with honor like your grandpappy did, or you just wanted to kill people and get away with it. And I'll tell you right now, there's a fucking lot of people in the service under category 3.

>>377490069
>If the reds were to violate a libertarian community, it'd probably be within the best interests of all individuals that live there to protect their property, their families and their community.

Individuals can't protect themselves from carpet bombing.

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>>377490173
>t. someone that has never fought in a war
Spotted the State puppy right here.

Behold! It is in war that the State really comes into its own: swelling in power, in number, in pride, in absolute dominion over the economy and the society. The State thrives on war - unless, of course, it is defeated and crushed - expands on it, glorifies in it, while also attempting to justify it before its citizens.

For the record, there are other countries in the world too, and they have conscription. Mine is an example.

>>377490332
Why do all libertarians write like the biggest fedora tippers in the world? I know that's what libertarians are, but there's gotta be some who type like actual people.

>>377487004
John Craft at the bottom firmly captures the irony of people who think they are the John Gault of anything.

Of course, even most libertarians have no good goddamn idea how they'd actually contribute in a Gault's Gulch scenario. So, it really isn't surprising when Communists think they have a good grasp on how things work.

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i love how ancap anon is BTFOing everyone purely by using Rothbard quotes

Rothbard is not even the best ancap has to offer, Hoppe is much better, but he is at least enough to BTFO a bunch of basement dwellers that suck the government's cock i guess

>>377490332
>My country
That sounds like a not first world problem. Maybe you should fix your own shitty country before trying to dictate what's best for the world.

>>377490332

I know you sound all smart, but the state has nothing to do with it. I joined up because I wanted to, because I actively wanted to kill sandniggers with 0 consequence. And I'm not the only one, a lot of people did after 9/11. What's wrong with that?

>>377490479
>>377490332
So much this. Ancap anon is based!

>>377490479
AnCaps are fucking retarded and their ideology is full of shit. Deal with it.

>>377490509
The difference between you and me is that you are the one trying to dictate things for other individuals, not me. Don't forget that.

>>377490543
I am not criticizing the way you joined. Sure, it was voluntary. I am criticizing your actions. War is always unjust and what you are doing is mass murder in the name of the State and of your own will I guess. You're little more than a petty serial killer in my book. Aggression is only justified when it is self-defense.

>>377490332
>>377490479
>>377490621
>Actual unironic samefagging

My god, you're pathetic.

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>>377490706

I'm perfectly content with the state of the world, I'm not someone that foolishly believes they can change it. People say the past was more violent and hateful but those things never went away, they just repositioned where they're most situated. People say the world is in crisis right now, but the world has ALWAYS been at crisis. here's always an Arquillian Battle Cruiser, or a Corillian Death Ray, or an intergalactic plague that is about to wipe out all life on this planet.

A pessimist believes things will get worse, but I'm not a pessimist because I don't believe that because I don't think things ever get "worse" or "better", overall human nature is a pretty universal constant through history. I know you're going to say something about me not being happy, but people in reality DON'T want to be happy. If we wanted to be happy, heroin and crack would be a RIGHT, not an illegal substance. If we wanted to be happy. comedy would be more valued than drama, rather than reality being the other way around. We wouldn't be so enamored with and watching the same two teenagers fall in love and die over, and over, and over again.

We don't want to be happy. We want to be satisfied.

>>377490683
>You are trying to dictate things for other individuals, not me
????
We're doing literally the exact same thing right now.

>>377490683

I say if it's something you want to do, why not do it? That's how I've always lived.

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>>377490812
The basis of Libertarianism lies in voluntarism, where you are free as long as you are not physically violating someone's physical property. There is nothing dictated, all rules outside of the one I just mentioned will only be valid to you if you voluntarily accept them.

You, however, support systematic theft, enslavement, murder, and overall the existence of the criminal organization known as the State, which imposes its existence and power on all individuals, even if they refuse it and want to escape from its grasp.

>not becoming supreme leader of your country and treating it like your plaything
You people have no sense of fun, you could be in a 40 woman slave orgy RIGHT NOW.

>>377490901
>You, however, support systematic theft, enslavement, murder, and overall the existence of the criminal organization known as the State, which imposes its existence and power on all individuals, even if they refuse it and want to escape from its grasp.

The state doesn't actually do these things. Maybe in your shitty third world country tho. Try moving to a first world country before you start advocating for reform.

>>377490901
>You support systematic theft, enslavement, murder
Yes I do. So what?
Morality is relative :)

>>377491048
Tell me one single country where the State does not practice theft (taxation).

Either that or explain how taxation - the appropriation of one's property without the owner's consent by use of threats and violence - is not theft.

>>377486708
Half-Life 3

Adults are bad people. As are children. All people are shit. Nothing can change because the nature of humanity doesn't change. Idealism doesn't work.

You know that brilliant idea of yours to fix the government? It won't work. No trust me, it won't work. I don't care if you've accounted for that, it still won't work. Every human being is a liar, every human is an idiot, and a shortsighted asshole But we have good reasons for that though. We lie because the truth can hurt, because a lie can often create a new truth that's better than what reality can provide. Confidence in a certain outcome can make it more likely. We are idiots, we so hate to be wrong that our idiocy drives us to discover new truths, to experiment, to invent. We are shortsighted, but so is every creature. What's unusual is how humans are able to consider where we'll be in 5 years, to plan for retirment, to consider the kind of world we leave to our children. Not everyone thinks that far ahead but the fact that ANY of us can is amazing. And of COURSE we're selfish assholes. We can only see things from one perspective, just again just like every other organism. Every plant and animal is an asshole, whether or not you notice that fact simply depends on how dangerous that organism is. But humans, we try to understand each other, we try harder than anything else on this planet, we invented grammar, we paint, we sing, we articulate that we're desperate to understand each other and be understood.

Do you know why we do that? Because deep down, everyone understands the same basic principle: that none of us is as dangerous as all of us. And that I believe, explains why collectively humanity is the biggest asshole of them all. So yes, idealism is irrelevant, because no human is perfect, and the vast majority of humans are only happy when someone is worse off than them.

And that's why I'm not a pessimist.

>>377491108
But I do consent to taxation. If there's any tax I have a problem with, I vote for it to get repealed or changed.

>>377486708
Who the fuck is John Galt?

>>377491057
You degenerated post-modernist, morality is not relative.

Libertarianism does admit that individuals have different morals, but it establishes that you have two distinct things: The Libertarian ethic, which is a single, absolute, central one, and consists basically of the NAP, and individual morals, which are relative and shouldn't be imposed on other individuals.

>>377491108
>The appropriation of one's property without the owner's consent by use of threats and violence
This isn't what taxation is.

>>377489498
>If a given community has trouble with criminals, their individuals can easily reunite, discuss and come up with a plan.

Like creating an organization to enforce a set of rules and having everyone pay to maintain this service that ensures them a level of protection? You know, a police force.

>>377491197
Try not paying your taxes.

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>>377491163
If you consent to taxation then it is not theft for you, but some people don't consent. Tell me how it is not theft for them.

>>377491197
A pretty cool Rothbard quote: If you think taxation is not compulsory, then I invite you to stop paying your taxes and tell me if that went by unpunished.

>>377491181
>morality is not relative.
from my point of view, libertarians are evil :)

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>>377491202
>/lit/ thread on /v-

Oh wait just another thinly veiled /pol/ never mind carry on.

>>377491202
Yes, the difference is that you are not forced to pay for that police force. If you think you can hold your own ground by yourself, so be it. Another difference is that there'd likely be different police forces competing, which would be healthy and increase the quality of their services.

>>377491234
>>377491243
If you live on government property and take government resources and yet don't pay taxes, off course they're going to kick you off.

>>377491329
Ah, so the only entity that truly owns anything in your worldview is the State.

>>377491386
Any land that is claimed by the state is owned by it yes. Are you retarded?

>>377491245
What are your opinions on sand?

>>377491297
>Another difference is that there'd likely be different police forces competing, which would be healthy and increase the quality of their services.

This is one of the ironic things libertarianism and socialism hold in common: they're both hopelessly naive ideologies. You're fucking stupid if competing police forces would be interested in actually protecting people, rather than just finding the quickest and easiest way to make money.

>>377491470
I hate it

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- Dagny, the entire world is in a terrible situation. [...] Men must unite and find an exit. But who is going to decide which path to take, if not the majority? I think that is the only fair way to decide, I don't see any other. Someone must be sacrificed. Well, it just happened that this someone was me, and I can't complain. Fairness is by their side. The men must unite.

She did a great effort to remain calm; she was shaking with anger.

- If this is the price for union, then I'd rather damn myself than to live in the same Earth as these humans! If they can only survive with our destruction, then why should I wish for them to survive? Nothing can justify self-immolation. Nothing can give them the right to transform men into their own escape boats. Nothing can make moral the destruction of the best. You can't be punished for being good. Or pay up for being efficient. If all this is right, then we'd better start annihilating each other, because there is no fairness of any kind in this world!

He did not reply. He just kept glancing at her, defenseless.

- If this is how the world is, then how to live in it? - she asked.
- I don't know - he mumbled.
- Dan, do you really think this is fair? Do you really, deep inside, think that?

He closed his eyes.

- No - he replied.
Then he glanced at her with a tortured look.
- That's why I was sitting here, trying to understand... I know that I should think it is right, but I can't. It's as if my tongue refused to declare it. From here I can see every rail, every luminous sign, every night I spent working on... - he let his head fall in his arms - My God, it is so unfair!
- Dan - she said with grinned teeth - fight!
____

You Statists WILL be smashed by us libertarians. For you are thieves, parasites and mediocre individuals that live from theft and slavery. We WILL imprison you or even kill you in self-defense should it be necessary if you keep attacking us. This excerpt from Ayn Rand symbolizes our anger.

I don't think an AnCap world can ever work for the reason >>377491157 mentioned, because the reality is most people are only happy if their happniess comes at the cost of someone else's misery. Libertarianism goes against human nature, and in reality if we actually created such a society, the most likely result would be a return to feudal states.

>>377491297
>different police forces competing, which would be healthy and increase the quality of their services.

That is one of the worst ideas I've ever heard. Best case scenario you just end up with private security services that do little to nothing to prevent crime.

>>377491538
Wasn’t America libertarian in 1850? Or at least 1870? And isn’t America 2014 clearly better than America in 1850 or 1870?

>>377491525
And what is your general plan of action if your adversary has the high ground?

>>377491525
Would you say it's rough and coarse?

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>>377491538
I don't normally accuse people of being from Reddit, but this is quite possibly the most Reddit post I have ever seen on this site.

You're just copying and pasting from there, aren't you?

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>>377491480
How does a police force make money?

a) Doing their job (protecting people)
b) Selling bananas

I'll save you the embarrassment: If they fail at doing their job the people will just hire a police force that is actually competent at what they do, such is the power of free market.

>>377491619
just jump, that always works

>>377491480
>they're both hopelessly naive ideologies
They also will both never actually happen in the way the theorists hoped and that's what stops most people from even trying. I've been to Africa, and just by what they would espouse you'd think libertarians would LOVE that continent since so much of it is built on self-reliance (because the state doesn't have enough power to do anything). But no one likes Africa, it's a collection of shithole countries.

>>377491763
>he didn't try spinning
You don't know any good tricks.

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>>377491716
If that was the most Reddit post you have ever seen then you must be a newfag. Get out.

>>377491749
Consider this analogy: McDonald's is incredibly profitable, yet the food is objectively terribly unhealthy. Yet people still buy it.

McDonald's doesn't care about the health of its customers. They care about selling a product.

Do you want the McDonald's of police forces, anon?

>>377491804
what if

you jump while spinning at the same time

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>>377491784
How fucking wrong can someone be in a single post

Africa is a collection of extremely Statist countries that have the lowest ranks of economic freedom in the entire world, they are the biggest nightmare of any decent Libertarian and if anything the living proof that the State is like poison for society, the more of it the worse it is

>>377491816
I'm sure I've passed by worse, but that one stood out from the white noise as particularly cringey fedora tipping.

Hell, that last line looked like a legit forum signature.

>>377491871
That's crazy. You're overestimating your power good sir!

>>377491880
>Anything that's bad is the opposite of my ideology no matter what it is! My ideas are perfect!
Not even gonna put effort into replying.

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>>377491867
McDonald's job is not providing healthy food, it's providing cheap food that tastes good, and they do a mighty fine job at this

If you want healthy food you will probably visit other restaurants and food places, such is the power of FREE MARKET

>>377491890
Don't even put effort into it, nothing good can come from your posts if you think that Africa is a collection of Libertarian countries. Your brainwashing is way too deep.

>>377491880
>Africa is a collection of extremely Statist countries

If you actually WENT there, you'd know that in the majority of them the state can't get anything done outside of the respective capital cities, which is why so much of is it still in the shitty state it was post-colonialism. Because no infrastructure spending, or really any spending of any sort.

And you know why they have no economic freedom? BECAUSE EVERYONE IS POOR. Yeah, libertarianism sounds great when you live in a society that has some level of economic stability, but if you live in a fucking shithole you're going to die young no matter what.

>>377491996
And so any police force that succeeds in a free market will be the one that provides the cheapest service, not the most quality one.

That sounds like a terrible police force.

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>>377486708
Atlas

“Well, I set my car on fire because the headlight burnt out, so clearly the only answer is no cars".

>>377492124
The principle of any capitalist company is to maximize profits by making their service as cheap as possible and at the same time as good as possible, which is why private services are always more efficient and cheaper than public ones, even if your dumb head thinks public services are free because you are too stupid to notice the shitton of taxes you pay every single day.

If the police force is not being good enough, a better police force will show up and individuals will prefer the better one unless they think that it's better to stick with the cheap one since it is good enough. Individuals are not as retarded or mentally inbred as you statists think they are.

>>377492215
Sounds like an anti-gun argument

Not anti-state though, the state argument is more like

"Well a bunch of armed men wearing blue uniforms just came inside my house and robbed me, I think we shouldn't have that kind of thing"

Why are there no libertarian countries? If libertarians are correct in claiming that they understand how best to organize a modern society, how is it that not a single country in the world in the early twenty-first century is organized along libertarian lines?

It’s not as though there were a shortage of countries to experiment with libertarianism. There are 193 sovereign state members of the United Nations—195, if you count the Vatican and Palestine, which have been granted observer status by the world organization. If libertarianism was a good idea, wouldn’t at least one country have tried it? Wouldn’t there be at least one country, out of nearly two hundred, with minimal government, free trade, open borders, decriminalized drugs, no welfare state and no public education system?

>>377492224
If you believe libertarianism is an ideology for intelligent people, and yet it's a fringe ideology in modern society, wouldn't that mean most people are retarded in your viewpoint? Doesn't that make them "dumb statists"?

>>377492224
I know exactly what taxes I pay, and I'm perfectly happy to do so because in return I get a police force that I know will at least try to protect me and my fellows equally, as opposed to a corporate force that won't give a shit about me if I'm not rich enough.

Current police forces are far from perfect, but I prefer it to what will eventually just revert to feudalism.

Also I hope the irony of calling anyone who disagrees with you stupid while claiming that I'm the one calling individuals retarded isn't lost on you.

>>377492307
Fully fledged libertarianism will only happen in a distant time, like one or two centuries from now I'd say.

We had partial libertarianism in the past and they were the moments of the biggest growth and increment of life quality in the history of humanity. A shame people messed everything up from there though.

For a libertarian country to exist you need to:

a) Make sure your fellow individuals do have the libertarian mentality or that at least a significant amount of individuals are libertarian and that they are capable of fighting any banditry that arises (else it'd be unstable and a State would rise from it very quickly similar to how it happened in Somalia)

b) Preferably make sure these individuals are morally conservative (Hoppean concept: libertarianism can't help if individuals don't enforce good morals by boycott)

c) Overthrow the State, arrest or kill their members accordingly since they are the worst criminals and went unpunished for far too long (politicians more specifically, maybe the military)

Then you got something going. From there on, each community decides how they are going to fare.

>>377492514
>c) Overthrow the State, arrest or kill their members accordingly since they are the worst criminals and went unpunished for far too long (politicians more specifically, maybe the military)

Starting to sound a little pink there, friend. Even the French didn't kill Louis XVI for the crime of being the king, they executed him because he was seen in trial as having committed high treason by having a foreign nation's army march into france to put down rebels.

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>>377492357
Statists are either people who were led by the system to think the world can only exist if the system exists, or petty parasites, criminals and mediocre individuals that need to be eliminated.

Most people are libertarian but are not even aware of it though. Here where I live everyone complains about politicians, taxes, public services, the way our government makes the private sector's life so much harder. They have libertarian demands but they are unable to spell out "I hate the State" since they were brainwashed since little to love the State and bow before it.

Unfortunately, the State wears a forged cloth of legitimacy, similar to the king of that story who wears the invisible clothes. Libertarians are like the child from that story, who points to the king and screams "THE KING IS NAKED!".

>>377492514
>c) Overthrow the State, arrest or kill their members accordingly since they are the worst criminals and went unpunished for far too long (politicians more specifically, maybe the military)

Sounds like exactly what a commie would say.

If only atlas shrugged was taught in schools, then we wouldn't have a generation of entitled parasitic imbeciles

bloody mooching looters

the john galt of vidya is shinji mikami
got tired of capcom's decisions and went galt, founding platinum and tango games to save the japanese vidya industry

>>377492695
Communism IS anarchic, just like anarcho-capitalism, so both will ultimately be about overthrowing the State.

>>377492631
Arresting them is not obligatory but I have no idea why you wouldn't arrest a bunch of thieves and slavers like the politicians. They really aren't anything but a criminal organization for the libertarian ethic. I really hope we do arrest them, it's needed for justice, but it's not essential at all for libertarianism to work.

>>377492768
>Arresting them is not obligatory but I have no idea why you wouldn't arrest a bunch of thieves and slavers like the politicians. They really aren't anything but a criminal organization for the libertarian ethic.

Because I'm not a collectivist.

>>377492514
To add to this, fellow ancapbro, all these things can be achieved by evasion of taxes (weakens the State's power of hurting you), secession (permanently mutilates the State) and one more thing I forgot.

Keep doing these, teach your children to do it too and you will have an ancap community eventually.

>>377492514
Riddle me this. If you live in a first world country, your life is pretty good. Even if you are poor you are most likely content. If a third world country tries to rebel, it will be wiped off the map. How will a libertarian uprising ever occur?

>>377492818
Do you even know what that word you just used means? Because I don't think you do. Libertarianism is the pinnacle of individualism.

>>377492887
See >>377492881

Tax evasion
Secession
Constant denouncing of the State's crimes to make people realize politicians are not their friends

Notice that you will hardly have an entire country rebel at once. It will start out with small cities. The State would probably attempt to reconquer these small cities. I have no idea what would happen then, but I'd like to believe that the most sensible and smart individuals would see that happening and realize how absurd and Orwellian it is, thus reinforcing the spread of libertarian ideas.

It's not a easy battle, probably one of the most difficult battles humanity will face, but we will eventually eliminate all parasites.

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Libertarianism will never bring about the true destiny of mankind.

>>377493025
>Do you even know what that word you just used means?

Do YOU? You're seeing all people who work for the state as "them". You're putting them into a category and considering them all thieves and slavers, regardless of the individual. That's collectivism, you're only seeing them as the group they belong to.

>>377493025
>Notice that you will hardly have an entire country rebel at once. It will start out with small cities. The State would probably attempt to reconquer these small cities. I have no idea what would happen then, but I'd like to believe that the most sensible and smart individuals would see that happening and realize how absurd and Orwellian it is, thus reinforcing the spread of libertarian ideas.
Or you know, everything just gets nuked and then 90% of the species dies off from food shortage due to the estimated 10 year nuclear winter temperature drop. Which either through rebellion or world war, I think is inevitable.

>>377493132
As I thought, you don't know what it means.

Collectivism is the ideology that preaches that individuals should sacrifice themselves and practice self-immolation for the well being of the majority.

Putting criminals in a group called "criminals" is not collectivism.

>>377493237
Why would any State nuke a small city that rebelled? That'd be very stupid, almost like sending the army to slaughter all citizens that rebelled. It's stupid to nuke your own territory.

>>377493064

An ultrafacist, dogmatic state is literally the only way humanity could survive in the grim, dark future that is the 41st millenium. It exists out of necesity because everything else in the galaxy wants to murderrape us and is actively trying to do so.

Stalin's "not one step back" may have been barbaric, but it saved the soviet union from complete annihilation in the Ostfront.

>>377493380
>It exists out of necesity
No it exists because Goge Vandire was an asshole. Seriously, his name was GOGE VANDIRE, that name alone sounds evil enough to set off red flags.

>>377493261
>Putting criminals in a group called "criminals" is not collectivism.

How is every person that works for the government a criminal? Is the janitor that cleans the garbage cans at the FBI HQ a criminal? The person at the DMV whose job it is to take pictures? The court stenographer?

The vast majority of people who work for the government don't actually run anything, they just do little tasks that people who actually make decisions won't. But in your scenario, they'd be lined up against the wall anyway.

>>377493606
Did you even read my post? I specified that it should only happen to politicians and maybe the military.

It's like I am debating with a wall.

>>377493667

The government and the state is more than just politicians. Most of it is people who just want a job that they won't be laid off from in a year.

There's no such thing as a society without people that impose upon others. Even the most remote, tiny groups of people have heirarchies where someone is in charge and others have to do what they say. It's why libertarianism can't work and it's also why communism (in of being a classless society) can't work.

Because at the end of the day we're just primates, and the alpha of the group will always take control.

>>377493865
libertarianism will have its own hierarchies, but at least there will be more accountability and responsibility, and in a libertarian society, those values of independence and strength would be taught and spread, not crushed as they are now by the codependent leeches upon society

>>377493865
>Because at the end of the day we're just primates

Alright, then you can live like an animal and throw shit at your parents in the zoo

>>377492121
Africa is also held down by being propped up by outside nations an charity.

How is a local farmer supposed to compete when other nations throw food at your country?
Why build your own infrastructure when foreign charity workers will come along and do it for you?

>>377488289
>It's as if her work was so pathetic that it wasn't even worthy of real criticism
It is. It reads like a bad fanfiction, MC is a huge mary sue, obviously a self-insert, John Galt is obviously a writers' sexual fantasy. All antagonists are staurday morning cartoon villains. Portagonists never have to question themselves or their belifes because they are alway right and perfect anyway.

The reason people don't use serious criticism against Ayn Rand is the same nobody seriously reviews furry fapfics deviantart. It's roughly on the same level, except it appeals to right wing fedoras instead of degenerate fedoras.

>>377493865
Primates have a variety of social structures, and our two closest living relatives have radically different ones.

But your principle point isn't wrong. Reducing it to "alpha" is just simplistic, fetishistic interpretation of social dynamics descended from poor understandings of wolf packs and bad porn. Many human societies had a more fluid structure. People could be in charge, but they really only were for a time and their role was really rather minor in the grand scheme of things. More like a manager than a king. It was larger social units, groups of guys going out to do stuff, that mattered more. There are trends towards lineage associations with social status, even among other apes, but the kinds of dynastic and entrenched systems humans eventually developed far outstrip those. Someone usually ends up in charge largely because why not? Humans specialize a lot of jobs, why not the decision making? That frees up other people to get on with the stuff that needs to be done. Then it's not too hard for that to become enshrined in a variety of beliefs and practices that allow for the creation of a position of power that is essentially independent of any one particular person but that a person must inhabit. The Throne, the Office, etc.

Hegemony is just really efficient for getting shit done with the way current people work. You're not likely to see anything radically different achieve any sort of success until we're well within any potential cyberpunk era where we can fuck with brains better and automate certain intellectual problems more easily. It's not even just about lines of communication, but how much people are capable of keeping track of in a day. Think the reason a lot of people aren't politically active is just that they don't care? They're fucking busy. They get tireD. Distracted. They're fleshy meat sacks that begin to die the moment they're created. An idealistic free utopia of rights is beyond them. They just want to live through the day.

haha, this fucking thread. people dropping pages of atlas shrugged. people dropping friedman quotes. people posting said quotes with anime images. this thread... it's like the fucking textbook example of why libertarianism is in essence "i'm 14, and why is everyone so fucking stupid, and why am I so fucking smart" the ideology.

>>377487102
>John Rogers
Had to Google who that was, only has written shitty TV Shows nobody will remember.

At least The Fountainhead made for a great movie.

>>377492768
communism is only anarchic when it comes to removing the existing power structure, only so that it can install a far worse power structure

anarcho capitalism isn't about overthrowing the state, it's about dissolving giant unaccountable monopolies (such as the state) so that things are accountable at a personal level, so that you don't have arbitrary rules just because of power

things like uber strip away the unaccountability and poor service of taxi services by providing alternatives that people can choose

anarcho capitalism is not going to be a mad max world

>>377495524
>anarcho capitalism isn't about overthrowing the state

You can't be serious. How the hell do you expect to implement it otherwise? Everyone will just magically decide that your way of thinking is correct and agree to stop with that whole government thing? That's the definition of utopian ideology. Ancaps are the most delusional motherfuckers on the planet.

overwatch is the john galt of vidya

>>377488506
This is exactly what's wrong with Rand and pure market forces philosophy. Here's an example of capitalism gone right;

>my phone company is too expensive
>because of the free market I choose a cheaper one
>after a while I get frustrated with the quality of service at the cheaper company. Calls drop, can't speak to customer services easily etc
>I move to a slightly more expensive phone company with better service, rewarding the business whose products suit my needs.

Capitalism works for almost all services. However, there are a few which are too important to be subject to the vagaries of capitalism.

>the company who built the roads in my town cut costs too much
>travel is now shitty in my town because of shitty roads, whole economy suffers

>the train company in my town cuts spending to give higher bonuses to executives
>I can literally only afford to take a train as a special treat, booked weeks in advance, even though I have a decent job
This one has happened in the UK. The government can't afford to let the train companies fold. So they bail them out at huge expense, meanwhile the trains cost 5x more than in Italy or France. Solution; public ownership of train system, just like the old days.

>I get hit by a car
>get taken to the nearest Doritos Mountain Dew Hospital while in a coma
>can't make informed decisions as a consumer; am in coma
>I die

>the one police department in my town is privatised and they drive down costs because there's no competition
>the owners are rich as fuck now and the cops are badly paid and untrained
>I die

In short, you're a fucking cuck who's been meme'd by the rich into believing that taxes are bad, and you will absolutely deserve everything you get when the world turns into Detroit from Robocop

America is the only country where ancap beliefs are taken seriously most likely because Americans have no concept of history outside The Hitler Channel.

>>377491243
Because they get something for their taxes, a lot more than they would be able to arrange with the same amount of money, like cops and hospitals and roads and education and the EPA stopping companies from fucking poisoning them.

You are a fucking retard

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>>377494907
>he doesn't understand how the style and presentation of the book is supposed to be romantic and not literal

>>377496372
Last I heard it was getting big enough in Cuba that the government had to shut down a Mises Institute running there. Also New Zealand is generally a lot more libertarian than most countries in the world after being the "Soviet Union of the Pacific" for many years.

>>377496632
Getting something in return does not make it not stealing. Let's look at some of those items that are received anyway

>Cops
Do you want me to find all of the stories of various cops throwing grenades into babies cribs, the fact that they're completely incompetent and absent in places that need them most (Detroit), or how Police were basically started by corrupt political machines in the U.S. (NYPD literally founded as almost a paramilitary gang)
>Hospitals
Wow everyone wants this nice thing but for some reason we need the government to take people's money to make it since it's the magic force by which wishes always come true unlike mean, cruel capitalism which kills puppies in people's homes because it helps that bottom line.
>EPA
It barely does shit man. One of its biggest claims to fame was regulations on the smog cars emitted, but even then that was already decreasing rapidly before any of them were put in places. If you're thinking about people being poisoned, that might be the FDA, which I'm sad to say was behind a good deal of deaths and illnesses by either witholding completely safe products do to a fear of actually testing them or using horrible testing methods with meat and so on (literally poking it with bare fingers.)

>get 60% through Atlas Shrugged
>they're still talking about railroads
I stopped.

>>377495724
you provide working decentralised alternatives that make the state obsolete

no violence neccesary

there was no overthrow of IBM, microsoft provided a better solution

uber provided better service than taxis

internet/ups/fedex provided better service than the post offices

cryptocurrencies make the banking system old and antiquated

govs are already dying because they're wasting all the taxes they scrape from everyone, soon there will be nothing left to pillage

>>377486708
Obviously Kojima.

>>377499961
>there was no overthrow of IBM, microsoft stole a better solution
>uber provided better service than taxis by ignoring a number of labor laws and hyper aggressive marketing that is currently backfiring
>internet/ups/fedex provided better service than the post offices at a considerable mark up and with far less reliable oversight
>cryptocurrencies take all of the current problems with banking structure and kicks it to 11