Discuss

*tracks this 9*

Wonder what that Klan member is going to see when he passes under that archway. The suspense is killing me.

>>377235187
fine if it can be turn off.

>>377235187
turn it off if you dont like it you neckbeard

>>377235371
NPCs don't actually provide directions you fucking idiot

It's not fine if you can turn it off because it's existence at all means the game was designed around it.

>>377235361
get your eyes check it's clearly Black Spy wearing White spy's hat.

>>377235187
Whats to discuss? Fallout had waypoints way before elder scrolls did.

>>377235435
Actually they do in Skyrim quite often.

>>377235187
Added in to make the game purposely boring

>>377235609
It's still shit, however
>>377235614
It's always vauge

>>377235614
No they don't.

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>/v/ wants everything to be Destruction Mastery-tier bullshit

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Literally the worse thing to grace the game industry in the past 15+ years
Its very existence is a monument to bad game design

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>Please find this mysterious Item that has been lost for centuries
>Quest marker shows exactly where it is

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Would you fuck it /v/

absolutely lazy design

>turn it off if you don't like it

great i can't wait to not know where to go because 90% of the quest are randomly generated (another lazy deisgn) and do not provide proper information


even the main quest provide dick for information past whiterun

>>377236647
Are those ass cheeks and a sideways vagina or a face?

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>>377236789

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>>377235187
>no one in skyrim cares about the literal army of Draugr infesting every graveyard and cave
no matter who wins the civil war, the zombies win

>>377238035
Just like in Fallout 3 and 4 where the Raiders outnumber the normal people a 100:1, but somehow haven't taken over.

>>377235187
Since quests nowadays are really just content filler with no actual story substance, I don't why people care about being shown where to go, youre just doing it for exp and loot.

>>377235187
See that mountain? You can go there.

it makes me so fucking angry, im so tired of my favorite video game catering to these normalfags, its fucking disgusting.

>>377236789

I thouht they were incredibly erect nipples with an ultra high set, sideways vaina

I mean I don't like that it's a thing, but I've seen the "directions" games sometimes give you, and I can't say I miss that either. "Search vaguely due southwest because the NPC giving directions was full of shit" enables and justifies this.

>>377236002
lmao it is an unfortunate necessity, not bad game design. By virtue of being discrete and hideable it's already better than stupid shit like sparkling paths or "constantly press this fucking button so important shit lights up like a fucking Christmas tree".

It's always going to be fucking obnoxious because the consequence of too much subtlety results in frustration and dropped games, which is a failure every dev wants to avoid.
Even an extremely well designed game where quest marking is unnecessary - unless detecting shit is the intended gameplay - net benefits from OPTIONAL quest marking. This pleases a large as playerbase as possible without ruining the experience for immersion or casual fags, a.k.a literally good game design faggot.

Stop making me defend Skyrim, please insult the trash combat/magic system or the inane dragon fights.

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>>377235187
cancer killing gaming

if someone tells you where to go, it's not an adventure game.

>>377235187
the death of video games

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>>377239601
>lmao it is an unfortunate necessity

It's only a necessity when your target audience is 90 IQ casuals.

So, i accidentally shouted jarl after completing the kill the dragon quest.

When i will be able to enter again?

A feature that makes you seem smart by hating it, despite the fact you forgot what it's like to play without it 15 years ago and would realize very quickly it's a necessity.

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>>377235187
RPG and thought-killing action game-tier cancer

I don't even like this shit in sandbox games. Would be much more entertaining to be directed vocally and have to find the place.

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>>377240280
>counterpoint: stooopid casuls XD
I wasn't prepared for such a intelligent and nihilistic customer.

>Joy, I get to comb through the exact same fucking dragur filled tomb that I've seen 80 million times to find some random quest trinket.
Riveting gameplay, on top of the already jaw dropping Skyrim tm action.
A game that is good enough to not need it will include it as an option anyway because a decent number of game devs are not retarded.

>>377242009
>Joy, I get to comb through the exact same fucking dragur filled tomb that I've seen 80 million times to find some random quest trinket.

That's Skyrim's problem. And how the hell are you supposed to miss a shiny trinket in a draugr's hand or a chest AT THE END OF THE DUNGEON. If you actually need directions to find that, you have bigger problems.

Morrowind also suffered from bad dungeon design, but at least it was short and only a corridor long.

>>377235502
sweet refence brah

Man, I'm glad I got this game on my Bonebox a week ago. I held off on playing for 6 years because of the not stop Dovakhin dick riding and Arrow/Knee jokes.

Literally going in blind. It's actually really good.

>>377245649
>tripfag can't tell the difference between fake fun and real fun
Why am I not surprised?

>>377247128
What? It's real fun for me. I had never played it before and I liked 3, and New vegas. The play styles are similar enough to provide me with maximum arousal.

But please tell me the difference between real and "fake" fun.

>muh written directions

What is with this meme? They still literally railroad you where to go, there just isn't a visual cue. There honestly isn't much difference

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>>377247128
>fake fun and real fun
Shut up you retard.

If they actually wrote the quests so they could be done without markers I wouldn't mind as much, but they really don't.

>>377235187
I have never understood this meme. Someone name at least 10 games without quest markers that don't require you to walk around aimlessly.

>>377245649
>Literally going in blind.
Are you really?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIROa8CkRaQ

>>377235187
The next TES will have a line that guides you right to the location like a train.

>>377248307
Super Mario Brothers, Need For Speed Underground, Need for Speed Underground 2, Sonic & All Stars Racing Transformed, Limbo, Demolition Girl, Pong, FIFA 15, FIFA World Cup 98, NFL 99

>>377248719
I knew I wasn't going to get a proper answer to this. I just don't get it. People say shit like "Oh no! It's the worst thing ever and it's killing muh vidya games!" and then they can't even name games that didn't need them.

>>377249415
Honestly though, Deus Ex, VTMB, Gothic, Morrowind, Fallout 1 and 2 Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 (if we're counting crpgs), KotOR 1 and 2, Dark Souls,

>>377235187

A cancer.

Games with quest markers have been designed AROUND quest markers. So you can't simply turn them off.

The only reasonable response is

>I don't have time to follow directions, I'm a grown man with a family

in which case I would tell you: stop playing videogames, you fucking moron.

>>377248307

Morrowind is the biggest, and because of this, the only example you will ever need.

The morons who can't find Caius Cosades can't follow directions and wouldn't find the nearest McDonald without GPS help.

In America.

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>There are people actually defending quest markers
The whole point of open world games is getting lost and discovering neat things. If you're simply going from point A to point B you're missing the point.

>>377250095
>blame americans for everything because i don't know enough about video games to think of an actual point

>want to play skyrim again
>boot it up
>looks like shit
>combat is terrible
>levels are repetitive

how did i ever like it?

>>377248307
Have you ever considered that walking around aimlessly is part of the story and using your brain to find out where you need to go is part of the fun?

>>377250624

It was an attempt at humor, no need to get touchy because you don't know the difference between west and east.

>>377235614

yeah right

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>compass
>map
>game tells you to figure out your position for yourself

>>377250693
You had bad taste in games and it was your first Elderscrolls game.

>>377250741
the fuck are you talking about, west and east? people bring up americans every single time this thread is posted.

>>377251330

It's a joke about how common McDonalds are in America, and you have to be a dumbfuck not to know how to get to one. Relax. I could have said "you have to be a moron not to know where to find a Chinese-owned market in Argentina".

That said: people who complain about directions in videogames are awful at following them. Concepts as basics as cardinal directions, "go up the ladder" or "turn around in this corner" are too complicated for them.

Morrowind has SOME terrible directions (because they are plain wrong), but people make it look like 95% of the game's directions are bad, when in reality about 5% of them are actually bad.

>>377235187
I can kind of understand the reasons why they're there, from a game design standpoint, what with having to appeal to the lowest-common-denominator of people to maximize sales, but I have to admit they went a little overboard in an RPG series not known for rounding its edges, so to speak (until Oblivion of course).

Like, the fact that there's always markers pointing to all exits from any interior location, unless the current quest objective is inside that location, is a little ridiculous. I think I can find my way out of a fucking cave, thank you. Especially when every cave and dungeon just loops around the beginning 99% of the time. If the thing I'm looking for isn't in there, just ditch the markers until I'm out.

Instead of going the direct route like in Oblivion and Skyrim, they should have done a more subtle route: Have the markers pinned to vague areas, like a town, or a house, or a room, instead of the exact person or thing you need to interact with at their exact location at any given time. It makes you actually have to look around and find shit without being completely lost if you forgot to take notes.

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>>377235614

Only selective neckbeards get mad about waypoints in open world games.

>>377250706
>Have you ever considered that walking around aimlessly is part of the story and using your brain to find out where you need to go is part of the fun?
But that's not fun.

>>377249962
there's a mod for that
"even better quest objectives"

This board acts weird towards this subject. According to people who usually get mad about this sort of thing, carrying half a truck load of items on one person and loading/waiting times aren't immersion-breaking but compasses, markers, and fast travel are.

This type of discussion always seems to prioritize rationalizing time-wasting instead of measuring if players are having actual fun.

>>377252675
loading screens are pretty dumb

>>377252675
>not having to think is fun

>>377247463
It requires some basic critical thought which in turn gives you a sense of agency, rewards good spacial reasoning/memory and encouraged you to look at the world in greater detail.

>>377235614
"Go to Bleejeefee Mountain Cave and defeat the bandit draugrs!" doesn't count as directions.

>>377252675
Following a marker isnt fun, its a mindless unengaging process in every way.

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>>377252675
>This type of discussion always seems to prioritize rationalizing time-wasting instead of measuring if players are having actual fun.

This is usually a thing with those who play mainly RPGs. It's like how soulsfags get mad when people don't like the fact you can't pause. These guys think they are worth more as people if they tolerate annoyances in video games.

>>377252536

It's not enough. The NPCs tell you nothing, and suddenly you have this sort of detailed set of directions in your journal.

>>377253186
you cant pause because online is seamless you dumb fuck.
>durr why cant i pause my mmo!

>>377253113
Yes it does. Maybe you should go and explore the world.

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>>377253236
skyrim's dialogue is a blight anyway

>>377253186
Its a thing in every genre because essentially its just handholding. Convenience is often an excuse to dumb down games.

>>377253186
why do you need to pause when you can just stop moving?

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Single most cancerous thing in videogames today. Completely and utterly railroads game design into easy mode and enables copy pasted assets with no real thought put behind them.

>Just turn them off
Great, now the game is unplayable because it was designed with them in mind. There is not a single game feature that has fucked games more and is used so frequently nowadays.

>>377253632
quicksaves and frequent checkpoints are worse desu

>>377238294
Because the quest markers enable this. Without maps and quest markers, devs would actually have to create interesting and organic quests.

God forbid we have those instead of go to this cave identical to 100 other ones and kill this bandit identical to 100 other ones. Grats, here's 100 gold.

>>377248307
I would point to some games, but the real question is how obvious does something need to be for the player to find it?
A game like Journey is very linear, has no quest markers or given instructions at all. It's brain dead intuitive, but how much aimless wandering anyone does depends on the player. What is intentional loitering and exploration vs structured play? How important are extras like collectables and hidden lore?
The problem with quest markers is that they tend to over structure play. Discovery and wonder feel more real when the player is less acutely aware of how their being guided towards something. Stumbling upon extras is much less likely to happen or to seem interesting when a quest marker is constantly refocusing you on some objective.

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>>377248307
a partial example, since quest markers only mark the quest giver instead of the objective

>>377236002
"Here let me point it out on your map."
You actually have problem with that?
Seriously?
That bothers you?

Anon you may be clinically retarded.

>>377253632
>>377253720
No, the single most cancerous thing in video games has been the same thing for decades: cinematic bullshit.

>>377254696
That also is a big problem, but people honestly have no idea how much better games would be if there were not markers or magic maps. It's not a simple matter of guiding players around on autopilot, it affects the entire design of the world and quests. It's a copout that allows devs to just fill empty worlds with generic caves and generic enemies.

>>377235187
probably already mentioned, but this is far less shitty than there being a shortcut exit at the immediate end of the dungeon.

>>377255192
>It's a copout that allows devs to just fill empty worlds with generic caves and generic enemies.
That's what Elder Scrolls has been doing since day one.

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>>377235187

>>377255325
Just let people fast travel from interiors and you solve that problem.

The only restriction should be Not while in combat and you have to have visited the target location prior.

>>377253315
Then be able to pause offline. Dork.

>>377254678

Maps don't work like that.

No, really: on a game like GTA it is perfectly acceptable. On a game like Skyrim it isn't, unless we are to believe the Dragonborn carries a big ass map that allows him to pinpoint with surgical precision every meaningful landmark in the game.

>>377248307
Dark Souls
Somebody tells you an objective you need to complete. Your path is based on enemy difficulty and hints from other players.

>>377253372
>Convenience is often an excuse to dumb down games
So? Convenience is also often an excuse to make games better and more fun.

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>>377253171
>its a mindless unengaging process
You just summed up the majority of video games.

>>377255881
So you must look at the pros and cons of the element youre trying to streamline and how changing it will affect the design of the game instead of just assuming that more convenient equals better. And thats what the entire argument is about, objective markers remove any critical thinking or challenge from navigation simply to cater to some lazy fags

It depends on the game really, say if the focus is combat then I don't mind. Something like Skyrim really suffers from including it though, although if they had an option to turn it off whilst also having a proper morrowind style journal that'd be neat.

It's still better than the retarded breadcrumbs in something like the witcher 3.

>>377256045
Yes, thats exactly why we shouldnt advocate for further streamlining

>>377256045
>majority of video games
>unengaging
I mean, I guess. I wouldn't play them though.
The literal antonym of engaging is boring, who'd play a boring game?