Assassin's Creed: Origins

>none of this 'moving around like your ancestor' stuff the movie tried to introduce.

didn't take ubi long to pretend the film doesn't exist

>>376965729
Even if that was successful, was there a chance that they'd include that in the next game? I thought the movie was its own thing entirely, its own canon.

>>376964118
So there aren't two protags like a previous leak said?

>>376964118
>and the return of sailing
Oh, fuck me, not again

>>376966017
with two protags the "leak" probably meant the guy in the present and the guy in the past

>>376964118
so assuming this is true
What do you mean return of sailing? It's pretty much just a sailing boat used for travel right? No naval combat?

>New Animus, called Animus 5.0. User sits down in it, none of this 'moving around like your ancestor' stuff the movie tried to introduce.
This will piss people off. British accents in Ancient Egypt. As if the Unity fuck up wasn't enough.

>>376965954
As far as I've understood it, the original intention was for the movies to be referenced/included as canon in future games. Lynch (Fassbender) was supposed to make a cameo in Origins at some point, but I believe it has been cut completely.

Before the film flopped, the word was that the movie(s) and games would eventually become part of the same narrative. That's not the case any more, thankfully.

>>376966017
There are two protagonists, but not like in Syndicate. One's the ancestor, the other's the modern day assassin.

>>376966768
Does that mean the modern day protag will have a larger role this time around?

Why are they giving us British accents again? When's the official fucking reveal already?

>>376966073
>>376966329
Imagine The Witcher 3's sailing. It's literally that with a little more customization. No naval combat, at least outside of cutscenes.

Fast travel is still in there, but the world is admittedly pretty nice to look at and there's quite a lot of ambient stuff going on in the open seas to encourage players not to use it.

And I agree about the accents, believe me.

>>376967371
I gotta ask something very important to me. Is ambient music in the game? Do you perhaps know who the composer is?

>>376967080
Yes. Imagine AC3's Desmond sections but with bigger areas and more interaction between characters.

>>376967153
During Ubisoft's E3 presentation. Not sure what date or time it'll be showing, though.

>>376967531
Ambient music is definitely in there and from what small pieces I've heard, is sounding very impressive. Afraid I don't have a name of the composer though, sorry.

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>no multiplayer
>NO MULTIPLAYER???????

GOD!!!!!!!!!!
FUCKING!!!!!!!!!!!
DAMN YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

UBISOFT WHAT THE FUCK!!!!!!!!

THIS IS ALL I WANTED BACK FOR THE PAST 3 GAMES AND UBISOFT LITERALLY FUCKED ME ONCE AGAIN. FUCK OFF. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRGGHHH FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU FUCK YOU!!!!!!!!!

>>376967995
That's great to hear man. I really didn't like how Unity and AC3 had nothing playing in the background. AC2 wouldn't have been as amazing without ambient music imo.

>>376968173
>wanting multiplayer in fucking Assassin's Creed
you are a special breed
nobody needs that tacked on bullshit, AC has always been a singleplayer franchise
Ubi should take that shit and form a new IP around it or whatever but let the AC team focus on singleplayer 100% instead of wasting resources and manpower on a mode that 5 people play

>>376968173
Just play The Ship

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>there will never be another nice surprise like Black Flag
>just endless attempts to force "serious" Ass Creed
>forced to play as mystical ancient kangz instead of wisecracking pirates
>running around desert shitholes instead of tropical paradise and the open sea
>the edgy grimdark samurai entry next year

JUST

>>376968173
Unfortunately Ubi wanted us to push out a well performing and 'bug-free' single player game. Multiplayer is definitely still on the cards, just not for Origins.

Sorry buddy.

>>376968206
I agree. A lot of effort has gone into immersion this time, hopefully some of that will be shown off in the E3 demo.

>>376969153
there's so much fucking wrong with that post, end yourself

>>376969153
Plenty of tropical areas in Origins, trust me. The mirages, oasis areas and the various islands dotted around the sea are very colorful.

Unfortunately you're right about the protagonist. He's pretty much a quieter version of Altaïr.

Japan isn't next, however.There's two more games in the pipeline with the same protagonist, much like the Ezio trilogy. Next game is set in Greece and one after that is currently undecided.

>>376964118
I miss the ACB multiplayer. But if they're focusing on a complete game, I guess it makes sense to cut it

>>376969374
>Please buy Origins! It's good, we promise!

>>376969649
Fuck yea, a trilogy. I remember the first leaker mentioning that Rome would probably be next after Greece, so basically an ancient trilogy.

Do you know what exact time period Origins is set in? Ancient Egypt is a broad term.

Any changes or improvements to the combat, stealth, and free running elements?

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>>376964118
I started playing the series with the original Assassin's Creed unlike these kiddies. So answer this question:

>Why haven't you done an Assassin's Creed set in Japan yet?

>Is there any chance that you will in the future?

>Where the next one going to be set? This one doesn't seem interesting.

How did ubisoft took the ac unity backlash?

>>376969995

Short answer: I don't know for sure.

Long answer: What I can tell you is that the last I heard, they were slotting it somewhere between 1400 and 1200 BCE. Without giving too much away, a piece of Eden is used during the Exodus and the crossing of the Red Sea, playing into the whole overarching mission of the modern-day protagonist.

When can we expect the game to be released?

What systems will it be on?

>You'll be able to put your hood up or down whenever you feel like it.
Game fucking saved i'm buying it

>>376968173
No, fuck the multiplayer. It all devolved into running around and killing everyone as fast as possible instead of the stealth that everybody tried to employ when Brotherhood first came out. It's ass now - just street brawls the whole time.

>>376970180
Yes to all three.

Combat is less one-button and more reaction-based. Enemies have different attack patterns and will actively look to flank you if you're in a wide open area. Yet again, the best way to describe it is very similar to The Witcher 3, but a little easier to grasp from the get-go. Sorry for the poor explanation, but it's difficult to explain without letting you go hands-on.

Stealth is much more integrated into the world. You can hide on corners, in crowds, in buildings and in bushes/haystacks. Imagine Syndicate and Unity's stealth, but much more well thought out and implemented. Social stealth is emphasized a lot in the game. You'll be blending into crowds and with groups of slaves an awful lot.

Free running is the same as Syndicate/Unity, though it adds in some of the flair from Watch Dogs 2. It's a lot smoother and more fluid.


>>376970218

>Why haven't you done an Assassin's Creed set in Japan yet?
Because the higher-up's think it'll flop. As a desk-jockey I'm not 100% sure on the details, but management don't like the idea so they palmed China off to be included in Assassin's Creed Chronicles a few years back to 'make the fans happy'.

>Is there any chance that you will in the future?
Definitely. The demand is there, but this trilogy will need to be finished without too much of a backlash from the customers before Ubi will consider going there.

>Where the next one going to be set? This one doesn't seem interesting.
Greece, about five to ten years after the end of this one.

>>376970871
Very, very badly. Since Unity came out, we've been working on Origins in order to avoid another buggy mess like Unity. Syndicate was about 60% complete when the backlash came to light, so Ubi shoved that one out of the door before we had the break.

Sounds like the same old shit.

>>376971689
Back end of this year. A good month before Christmas is a sure bet. The management want to make the most of the extra sales.

>>376971758
PS4, Xbox One, PC. No Switch version, the console isn't powerful enough.

Any new tools or weapons in this game, or will things be kept simple since the game seems to be going further back into the past this time? Will there be a hidden blade even?

>>376972809
hidden blade is now attached the main character's large african penis that he uses to destroy the white males who wrong the city

>>376972694
Is combat system going to be improved, but still being some kind of Unity combat and not Syndicate one? Because holy shit I hope so

>>376964118
I'm going to buy your game, but you don't have to be so blatant about Ubi, we know it's you "leaking" these images

>no multiplayer
>more sailing
>no 2 protagonists bullshit

if the combat, stealth, story and AI aren't shit then I might consider it...

>>376972915
how do you counter with this new hidden blade?

This literally sounds like every ass creed game, and I've played them all.

Willing to bet ubisoft will still use the same 3 cutscenes for clearing side missions.

This franchise went to shit a long time ago, it will take a lot more than a few new bells and whistles to win me back.

There better be fundamental changes to the core missions, collectathon side quests, and missions where you clear and area for resources and get the same cutscenes over and over again.

There are a lot of fucking problems with this series, I don't think ubisoft is smart enough to fix them.

>>376973242
just like it previous games it's a timing thing. only tip I can give you without spoiling mechanics is you need a white woman nearby to have it as stiff as possible

>>376972809
There's a very early version of the hidden blade. It requires the loss of the ring finger, like Altair's did. Other than that, there's a bow, shield, various swords, spears and throwing knives.

The idea is to give the player choices, but also keep it historically accurate. Because of this, the team were sort of limited as to what they could/couldn't include.

I'm willing to bet that the "good guys" will all be black dudes, maybe one white guy
While the main villain and all his main cohorts (see: every assassination target in the game) will be white
Something to do with "the pharaoh is oppressive and a douche and he's looking for pieces of eden or whatever"

Not sure how they'll shoehorn templars into it, when the namesake didn't exist until over a thousand years later

>>376973565
oh anon

>>376964118
Assassin's Creed made any games after Part 2? Huh.

>>376964118
>the return of sailing
>sailing
>in Ancient Egypt
How? Sailing ships didn't really become a thing until the 1400s and didn't really replace galleys until the late 1500s. Lepanto was in fucking 1571.

>>376973841
Valve doesn't make Assassins Creed games

>>376973841
You've either literally been living under a rock or you're shitposting
Either way fuck off

>>376973795
Don't forget the "Secret Society" of women who used to be men but are now "Badass Womyn Yo!"
With your help, they can dismantle the evil patriarchy of 14th century Rome

Just to prove you're not spouting bullshit, what's the assassin's name?

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>>376973996
>"""""""sailing""""""

>>376974006
I really liked Part 1 and Part 2 was even better! So tell me, are the later games even better than Part 2? This series must be amazing now!

>>376974103
Barack

>>376973114
It's not me personally leaking them, but it definitely is not an accident. It's all being used to drum up hype and get people talking before E3.

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>>376974137

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Thanks for all your answers so far Assassin-bro.

Mind if I ask you something? What's it like working over at Jewbisoft. Be honest. Strict bosses? Bitchy co-workers? Office politics? Give us the whole enchilada.

>>376973996
Your character rows his small boat/raft around the Eastern Mediterranean to explore - as seen in the leaked screenshot. You never get a 'crew' or anything.

>>376974103
Protagonist doesn't have a name at the start of the game. As events unfold, other characters start to call him 'Shed', after the deity that represents salvation. A big part of the story revolves around saving your people from slavery, like in Freedom Cry.

>>376975314
>Shed

as in cuck shed?

>>376975421
exactly

Just to get it out of the way, are they going to WE WUZ the ancestor MC and make him black?

>>376971046
>1400-1600 BC
Disappointing. I don't care much for the Bronze Age and find it kind of boring. I guess that means though Greece is the Myceanean period and probably Babylon as the only other logical place. That also gives them an excuse to make the Bronze Age Collapse due to a piece of Eden and probably use the Trojan War as a struggle over a piece of Eden as well and Helen of Troy is a Sage or some bullshit.

Kind of lame. Would've expected them to go with late Ptolemaic/early Roman Egypt due to fame.

>>376975314
https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shed_(deity)

Well this is interesting.

>>376975694
I'm kinda expecting the MC to be jewish since the pharaohs enslaved a bunch of them and Ubisoft can still get their minority points.

>>376972426
Kind of to follow up on the Japan/setting question, what's the most outside the box for a setting (location/time period) that you've heard, either because it was just "huh?" or because it was interesting?

I've always thought that pre-World War I Balkans would make a great setting if they ever wanted to push that far ahead. Same with 4th or 5th century Western Roman Empire.

>>376972426
>higher ups think it will flop

Are you fucking kidding me. An AC set in Feudal Japan would sell by the motherload

>>376975081

Short answer: It's shit, but puts food on the table for my family.

Long answer: There's a reason people are leaving left right and center. Management don't give two hoots about your personal life and often demand (not ask) that you stay and do extra work because their planning was completely awful.

The other people at my level (desk-jockeys that rarely have a say in anything) are decent enough to work with, everyone just sort of gets on with their own thing and give you a hand if they get the time.

Middle management is nothing special. They brown-nose 24/7 and if they can, they'll throw you under the bus at any given opportunity in order to look good to their bosses. I've not personally seen too much office politics in play, so I can't really comment on that.

I'd definitely recommend reading some of the interviews done by ex-employees that experienced a much harsher working environment than I have. They're very telling as to what working here is like if you don't keep your head down and just do what you're told.

>>376976273
This. A poor decision on Ubi's part. With Ninjas and samurai this shit practically writes itself.

>>376976406
Damn that's shit. I'm so lucky I got a job at Google. Can I ask you what office you work at?

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>>376976845
Pray tell how does one manage to "get a job at google"?

>>376975694
Ancestor is an Israelite. Not black as in Adewale black, but darker than Altair.

Modern day protagonist is mixed race.

>>376976143
Do you mean a setting that's been thrown around the office, or that I've heard from fans?

>>376976273
I wholeheartedly agree. Unfortunately, the decision makers don't.


I can probably fit a few more questions in before I have to split, it's getting pretty late here and I'm back in the office tomorrow. Thrown them at me if you have any final ones.

>>376977178
I sent a resume and passed the interviews. They still haven't fired me.

>>376976845
I'd rather not say, just to be safe. Sorry!

>>376977215
You need to send word up the grapevine that the higher ups need to get on a Feudal Japan setting because if they don't, they pretty much hate money.

>>376977215
Around the office. I remember one of the early rumors (based on one of the writer's tweets?) not long after Syndicate came out was the Wild West. I don't think I've ever seen fan ideas that go beyond "GIB JAP PLZ".

>>376977371
Another day in anon's wild fantasies I see! Nice keep em coming boyo.

>>376972426
>>Why haven't you done an Assassin's Creed set in Japan yet?
>Because the higher-up's think it'll flop

I guess they haven't seen nioh's sales yet

>>376977215
How does the character customization work this time in terms of skills and outfits?

>>376977215
Why no WWII AC yet?

Fuck, I'd even take a WWI AC.

>>376977383
Perhaps they're saving it for when the series loses its popularity and they want it back on top.

>>376977178
I think he spelled it wrong, he's got a job at Splogoogle, a gay bar on main street.
He the resident cum dump

>>376977215
>Israelite
Did Ubisoft literally decide to make all Egyptian records a Templar lie or something so they could stick with Exodus bullshit? We already know that there were no Abrahamic people in Egypt at any point prior to Alexander taking Egypt, and they didn't proliferate there until the Roman Empire controlled the Mediterranean. Most non-Egyptians were either west African labor, Greek architects, or Persian artisans.

What engine is the thing using?

>>376977553
They can be shown until they're blue in the face that the setting doesn't necessarily matter. They'll go to their graves believing westerners only want western settings. The success of something like Nioh or Persona 5 will take a while t sink in.

Speaking of Persona, will there be any romance since that seems to be the rage with games nowadays? As in the typical "here's a selection of girls, woo one" style.

>>376972426
Rome, Japan and Korea are literally the only settings I'm even remotely interested in so I hope they don't change their mind about it. Makes sense they'd go for Greece before Rome since literally no of wants to play there so they can blame the no Rome on that.

>>376972426
So when's the medieval era Assassin's creed coming?
After the Rome and Greece versions?
Surely this new character can't be in all three games. Egypt>Greece>Rome. Doesn't make sense in timescale.
But the settings would be cool to see and I guess it could be a later period of Greece. Although that period is less interesting.

Also will there be decent armour and weapon variation like Unity or very little like Syndicate?

>>376973495
You played all of them while every sane person gave up after 2 because literally every game was exactly the same. You will buy this one as well.

>>376977480
The wildest idea that was floating around the office was one set in the Roman Empire. The idea was in very, very early stages, but I know the general storyline was that you'd end up killing Ceasar (who wasn't a Templar, but shared a lot of their ideologies) and the senators that killed him were all actually members of the brotherhood.

>>376977649
Skills are done on a talent tree, much like Unity and Syndicate. However, the differences between the skill trees are drastically different and you can only ever have a certain amount of skills active at one point. One tree is Combat, another Stealth and the final one is Movement.

Outfit-wise, there's a few pre-determined outfits (as there has been in every AC game). However, there are different piece of equipment that you can buy that will go over the top of your 'base' appearance. Imagine Unity's equipment variation/customization, but with less pointless fluff.

>>376978183
You just have to spin it like "you're forcing a euro-centric patriarchal viewpoint in all of your games and are neglecting the Asian audience you white male cis scum".

Are there any other Ubisoft related things yo ucan leak?

>>376978519
Ah so the whole Egypt Greece Rome thing was just speculation.
No Rome game.

But to go back to my other question.
Decent weapon and armour customisation yay or nay?

>>376978260
>Japan and Korea
But why? It's shit.

Fuck Assassins Creed, bring back Prince of Persia

>>376978519
What about Mesopotamia? Parkour in ancient Babylon would be sweet.

>>376978781
Nah
Japan
Ancient Rome
Medieval Europe IE Knights and castles
are my ultimate siwh list for assassins creed. Dunno why they got caught up in such modern stuff. Present day combat or combat with guns does not make for a good AC game.

>>376978308
Given the timeline none of it really makes sense. So much of the 1400s BC history is overshadowed by Judea-Christian bullshit that the real history essentially only exists only in museums.

You know the game is going to be about an artifact of Eden parting the red sea or some bullshit.

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>>376968173

Fuck mulitplayer

>>376977750
WWI and WWII were discussed a while back, but they never got past the initial design stages due to lack of popularity with management.

(Noticing a theme, yet?)

>>376978062
>Did Ubisoft literally decide to make all Egyptian records a Templar lie or something so they could stick with Exodus bullshit?
Hit the nail on the head.

>>376978141
A reworked version of the engine used in Syndicate. They've overhauled a lot of the features, but the core engine it runs on is pretty much the same.

>>376978308
>So when's the medieval era Assassin's creed coming?
Nothing to report as of yet. Sorry!

>After the Rome and Greece versions?
It will certainly have to be after the current trilogy, if it happens at all.

>Surely this new character can't be in all three games.
He's definitely in the first two. I honestly don't know about the third or if Rome is even the setting. Word has yet to come through the grapevine to us desk-jockeys.

>Also will there be decent armour and weapon variation like Unity or very little like Syndicate?
More akin to Unity's equipment/customization system than Syndicate's, yes.

>>376971046
Is it Ancient Egypt during the dynasties where they ruled themselves? Or is it the easier and much less original Egypt as a colony of Greece or Rome during the classical era

>>376979004
Are you me? What's your name?

>>376979004
I didn't even play any AC game past 2nd one. I remember how hyped I was for the first one. But then I found out all that technoshit. Why can't they just make it pure history games?

>>376979154
>but the core engine it runs on is pretty much the same.

kek, so in other words it's the same old shit.

>>376979004
oh god a medieval assassin's creed with knights and castles would be amazing

>>376978743
>Decent weapon and armour customisation yay or nay?
Yay.

>>376978864
It's never coming back unless Assassin's Creed dies a horrible death. Sorry!

>>376979009
The idea is that the 'real' history will be explored in the game and the stuff we known is Templar bullshit. Best way to describe it, really.

>You know the game is going to be about an artifact of Eden parting the red sea or some bullshit.
It's not the main focus of the game, but as I said earlier, the ancestor and a piece of Eden do end up taking part in the Exodus and the crossing of the Red Sea.

>>376979306
I don't think so anon, Ubi's engines for asscreed are anything but bad even if they're badly used, and when polished we can get some good shit.
Unity looked amazing, and Rogue is extremely smooth and easy to run while being the third time ac3 engine was used and improved, same case with AC1 > AC2 > Brotherhood.

I was having fun in this comfy leak thread, checking out the questions and answers while contemplating about the direction of the AC series as well as Ubisoft in general. But then I realized that there may be females in disguise here and I instantly felt repulsed.

When the game 'modern day' stuff became not ubisoft making video games I kinda lost interest. though only game I've completed is black flag. modern day stuff could've been pretty cool and then they made it into it being a video game within a video game

>>376979306
You'd be surprised how different it looks when compared to Syndicate and Unity.

>>376979173
During the dynasties.

>>376979349
The overall tone of the original AC definitely pointed towards this. Especially one of the cities in it whose name I've forgot. Needless to say it was the highpoint of the series. In which the Assassin's guild actually made sense somewhat.

Mycenaean Greece is a really bad idea. Not only do we not know enough about them to make an immersive setting, they're weren't developed enough to be interested. Guarantee they incorporate anachronisms galore from classical Greece inappropriately into the game

>>376979590
The modern day stuff does more to highlight the fact that Templars and Assassin's still exsist and are having a big impact on the world.

It'll play more like AC3's modern-day sections than Black Flag's.

-------

Right, I've got to head off. It's been great talking to you all and getting to answer some questions.

Hope the E3 demo helps alleviate some of the concern I've seen people discuss in here.

Is the Singapore branch involved with this game at all? Looking back it seems like they were the ones behind pretty much every gameplay bit I liked about the series (Assassin Tombs and those types of areas from the Ezio games, sailing in AC3 and AC4) so they definitely seem like a damn good studio.

>>376979765
That goes for most anything related to the Bronze Age. It half feels like someone went "hey, what if we tied Exodus to the Pieces of Eden" and then built the game off of that idea. I mean I think "fall of the Roman Republic" is a horrendously overused setting but, well, it's overused for a reason.

>>376979190
A sane person
>>376979246
Legit. The mystery was interesting for the first one but got boring fast. Purely historical would be very good. Although with the animus they have an excuse for all the loading screens and such. Maybe in the future.

>>376979482
What I meant is more that Egyptian history around that time is tied in more with the flow of Greek, Persian, and Philistine workers. There are records of the Abrahamic people from the time but all of them point to the Abrahamic tribes still being in east Persia rather than in Egypt.
The picture of history that is coming to light thanks to the last 40 years of discoveries is fascinating, but because of the exodus story people still think the old jews were in Egypt instead of a rich Mediterranean metropolis booming in international trade of ideas and peoples. I mean, really, the exodus story doesn't make any sense when you match it against records from any major civilization at the time that has been found in the last half century.

I always wonder if when a dev posts here like this if it is not just for marketing and getting a feel for the reception of the game.

>>376980937
Circa 2007 to 2009 devs posted here in a genuine way. After about 2011 it mostly became disgruntled workers that posted here normally anyways as well as viral marketers.

/co/ was the same way for a long time where comic artists and writers posted there, but then the whole tumblr-ization of comics happened and it became mostly disgruntled distributors and promoters.

>>376968173
Multiplayer kills the 100% autist in me for these games. After Brotherhood, I couldn't do revelations and haven't picked up one since

>>376982294
What if they do it the way Titanfall 2 did?
Where the multiplayer achievements are as braindead easy as "customize a loadout" or "play one match"?
Because I loved the shit out of AC multiplayer and I'd love to see it return. It was one of the few multiplayer games where technique was more valuable than brute force

>>376964118
>they'll show off the new scouting mechanic - the eagle.
lol it's basically a drone, isn't it?

>>376982921
isn't that what they did in fucking Far cry ooga booga?

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>>376982562
Stuff like that is fine, but just keep stuff like this out of it.
The bullshit thing where you had to kill like 5 guys in a row and escape is not even a trophy by itself, but killing a guy in a bay hale is.

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>>376969656
>>376972201
I played a bunch of ac3 and black flag the capture thr whatever, it was insanely fun, teleport was the shit.
You will never know the joy of teleporting infront of artifact runner and smashing their face in.

Assassination was fun in its own clusterfuck way.

Every other mode was shit it was either a brawl or someone was like a billion points ahead of everyone because they actually did stealth kills for 1k points.

Mp had cool characters too.

OP was wrong though. There was a 3rd pic leaked before the second one about 3 years ago.

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>Assassin's Creed
>Let's get this party started!
>mfw shills
Trash series that releases a game every year. Call of Dooty lite. You can't make this shit up folks.

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>>376983806
This one?
Nothing really came of it though.
It seems to be a reeeeeally early build, because the character looks nothing like the guy who was in the last two screenshots

>>376964118
>there will be micro-transations similar to those seen in Black Flag and Rogue.
I don't remember any microtransactions in those games. Did you mean like in Unity?

>>376964118
Is the protag's white?

>>376986270
Those micro-transations automatically shows collectibles in map called time savers

I was hoping for the female protagonist so I wouldn't be forced to play as a WE WUZ, So now I probably just won't bother with the game at all. Assassins Creed is dead

>>376987192
It's a straight up sub-Saharan ape, so no

>>376987713
This, I want to be a sexy girl assassin in skimpy Egyptian gear

>>376987713
>>376988437
This

fuck off shill?