Is turn based an outdated genre?

First of all, it isn't a genre. And yes, it is a dated feature. Stop asking retarded questions.

It's a mechanic, not a genre, and no.

I miss high production value, sprite-driven, hand drawn video games on consoles. A hand drawn remaster of 6 in 1080p would be fun (keeping to the same style. None of that disgusting iPhone shit).

>>376954076
In the same way that controllers are outdated compared to touchscreens, yes.

>>376954076
Turn based like the one in the pic is absolutely outdated, its just too simplistic and boring, auto battle shouldn't even be a thing in a game about combat, ,about the only thing I'd say about FF6 that made combat slightly tactical is that certain attacks like magic weren't instant and had to be charged first.

FF or Pokemon style turn based is. Turn based tactics is not.

>>376954076
No.

The people who utilized it are dead, though, and the new people have no fucking clue how to innovate anything.

Expect rpgmaker games masquerading as RPGs and replacing any idea of unique or mechanically complex RPGs.

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>>376954076
Turn-based combat is not only outdated, it was never fun, it was never satisfying, it was never "strategic." All turn-based games only require you to do 2 things: Heal when low in HP and use the enemy's weakness. That's literally all it boils down to. No matter how many other mechanics they thrown in there, it's just healing and finding out the weakness. That's not "strategic", that's just repetitive.

Your characters stand on one side like retards and you can't manually dodge. (Yes, I know some have a "defend" option, I'm talking about when characters evade an attack) You have to rely on luck/stats to dodge. That is SHIT. Videogames are supposed to test your reflexes, not relying on a roulette wheel.

Say what you want about action games, at least you manually move your character out of danger's way. You're actually timing shit, and controlling everything. Not relying on luck.

People who like turn-based games just want "cinematic experiences". Choosing words in a menu to fight is not entertaining.

>>376955592
I disagree.

>>376955592
>he's never played X-COM, Silent Storm, or JA2

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>FF XVI makes a glorious return of classic combat with ATB along with ditching photorealism in favor of stylized graphics
>sales go through the roof
>release a statement expressing surprise that turn based games still sell
If only.
Why does SE insist on alienating FF fanbase by catering to the most casual faggots who hate the genre while allowing DQ to stay true to its roots? Is this a part Enix's master plan which began back in 2003 when they absorbed Square?

>>376956078
Turn-based games are the most casual shit there is. Requires no reflexes or anything. Just choosing words in a menu

Persona 5 was released in the US this year, and is one of the highest rated video games on Metacritic of all time.

Any argument made to debate that turn-based combat is outdated, or low in quality, is moot.

>>376954076
For JRPGs? sure, I would prefer if they played more like KH or FF 15

For other games? still very fun and can be innovated on. Recent example would be battle brothers, exceptional strategy game. Turn-based combat is a versatile system that has changed for the better over time. There's a reason it's still around when many other games types disappeared

>>376955592
>Videogames are supposed to test your reflexes

Says who? Fuck off with this shit.

>People who like turn-based games just want "cinematic experiences". Choosing words in a menu to fight is not entertaining.

Fucking buzzword meme autist. As a kid, these were fun stories that allowed for imagination.

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>turn based with random encounters

>>376956276
Shut up. Basically every game is hold x or square to win nowadays. That sounds very similar to turn based games.

>>376956359
They never saw it coming.

you dumb motherfuckers the op image isnt even turn based

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>>376955592
Let me know how that works out for you.

>>376954076

No.

Two words: Shadow Tactics.

>>376955592
I totally agree

>>376956382
>Says who

Says anyone who plays videogames for gameplay. You know, actually controlling your character. Moving your character manually to evade, pressing attack buttons to attack, etc. Not relying on a roulette wheel and repeating 2 things throughout the whole game.

No matter how many ad hominems you spew you can't defend your boring cinematic shit with no entertainment value whatsoever. Choosing words is not satisfying. It's not fun.

>>376956534
If you switch to Wait it is (but that's shitty).

>>376956487
>being this delusional

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>>376956664
>My opinion is better than yours.

>>376956487
There's a difference. In real time games you move your character manually in combat. You evade manually, you attack manually. You don't stand like a retard and rely on luck to evade.

>every game is hold x or square to win
>every game

Name 10 off the top of your head. And even if there are games like that, that doesn't make turn-based good.

>>376956664
To you.

>>376956664

Do you have a Steam or PSN account? See me in Guilty Gear, SFV, Blazblue or Skullgirls.

Yes. It is outdated.

It's only used by incredibly lazy devs now. No exceptions.

It's not. As long as the battle is on the map and there aren't random encounters.

>>376956775
>has no argument

Thanks for proving me right.

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>>376956664
>it's not a game if I don't like it!

>>376955592
>just attack and heal
>evading is entirely luck based
Spoken like someone who doesn't use any of the tools provided to them. Do you grind as well?

>>376956664
ADD faggot pls go.

>>376954076
All turn based games should evolve into a Mario & Luigi style game.

Or at least use the right stick of the controllers for dodge, that would be cool.

>>376956775
It really is though. People who defend typical turn based games either provide no examples of worth or reference much better games that they barely actually play while acting like the typical FF game actually has strategic combat.

>>376954076
Turn-based done right:
Card games
Chess
Original Sin series
FF/OB Tactics type games
4x type Civ games
etc.

Turn-based done wrong:
Final Fantasy
Persona
Most JRPG's
etc.

>>376955592
>Videogames are supposed to test your reflexes
[citation needed]

>enjoy turned based games
>could never get into the ATB System

Maybe one day.

>>376954076
Yes, it's outdated just like random encounters. They came from limitations that we don't have anymore which is why ARPGs are more common now. They can still be enjoyable though.

I'd suck my dick to have decent turn-based gameplay with great visuals instead of clunky, unpolished, unbalanced action combat. I mean, I'd suck my dick if I could regardless, but you get the point.

This applies to every clunky fantasy action game to ever exist, from FFXV to The Witcher series. Clunky action gameplay gives me inoperable cancer.

>>376957072
JRPG turn based combat is predated by JRPG action combat. It was never a matter of limitations.

>>376954856
>certain attacks like magic weren't instant and had to be charged first
Wrong. Your age is showing, faggot.

>>376954076
It's a mechanic, and absolutely not.

Not everyone is a ritalin-addled teenage fuckwit that can't keep their attention on anything that isn't absolutely frantic.

Also, turn-based combat allows for massively more control of your characters/party, and potential depth than real-time ever will.

>>376956915
>Implying I need to argue against your hot opinions.
You are literally trying to justify opinions as fact and using bullshit arguments like "you need to rely on luck".

>>376956989
Lufia II (or just Lufia in the USA I believe) is probably my favourite.

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>>376955592
Everything you've said is retarded.

neo/v/ is actually so dumb. Seriously you guys are not intelligent

>thread about turn based
>pic is active time battle

Is OP retarded?

>>376957008
Gwent is unironically a far better game than both The Witcher's default combat and most turn based games.

Pokemon is an exception for similar reasons, you can actually bluff your opponent for instance.

>>376957008
FFT and Ogre Battle are both examples of how to make SRPG combat far less interesting and slower than normal JRPG combat. The balance in both of them is so incredibly shit that it takes almost no effort to break them AND they're slow as fuck.

>>376955592

The best gameplay is based on testing your ability to plan ahead, to manage limited resources and limited number of in-game days, not testing reflexes.

Even a relatively simple take on that concept like persona 3/4/5 is higher IQ then the hardest action game.

>>376954076
Dunno.

Is chess outdated?

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>>376956276
It's all fun and laughs until people stumble upon a brick wall of Atlus and their zero handholding philosophy and suddenly a turn based rpg is handing their asses to them.
The sheer amount of people who played Persona 5 on safety/easy is amusing.
Reviewers being unable to get past the first dungeon in SMT IV was also pure gold.

>>376955592
>All turn-based games only require you to do 2 things: Heal when low in HP and use the enemy's weakness.


Civilization, Master of Orion, Master of Magic, Jagged Alliance, X-Com, and Shining Force say hello.

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>>376954076
It's still the definitive playstyle for 4X games.

That type of turn based, yes.

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>>376956834
>>376956835
>>376956918
>ad hominem/irrelevant trash

The fact that you can't refute anything says it all.

>>376956932
When playing an action game:

>Oh no I'm about to get hit, I'll move out of the way since you know, I can actually control my character.

When playing a turn-based game:

>I hope my character just evades cause you know, he stands there like a retard and the game takes no skill whatsoever.

When playing an action game:

>I'm gonna perfectly time this dodge and execute this combo, it's gonna be satisfying since I'm actually the one doing it.

When playing a turn-based game:

>I'm gonna choose words in a menu. And uh, he just does it. That sure took skill.


No matter what excuses you make, no matter how hard you try to justify it, turn-based games are boring, cinematic movie games that take no reflexes to play. The only people that would deny this are nostalgiafags who grew up with Pokemon or waifufag virgins who play Persona. Period.

>>376956664

"Shadow Run: Dragonfall, Underrail, Fallout 1+2, Pillars of Eternity, Divinity Original Sin, and Wasteland 2 don't have gameplay"

>>376956078
Enix didn't absorb Square you dipshit faggot nigger. It was the other way around, they kept the Enix tag for brand recognition. They all but purged the entire enix staff afterwards. Research your shit next time fuckface.

>>376956359
Persona didn't sell because of the gameplay, people only play it for the girls

>>376957198
No, he's right. All commands in FFVI have a command delay that determines how long it takes for them to fire off. Magic is in the middle.

Why is everyone on /v/ so inarticulate?

>>376956664
your replying to a majority of teenagers and adults who masturbate everything out of their body. not saying you are correct, but stop using 4chan

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>>376956276
And yet there are people who literally fail Fallout 2 at the character creation screen.

>>376954076
Can anyone recommend me some good, new, non-weeb turn based games (RPGs if possible)

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>>376954487

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>>376957465
>WOOOOOW HOW WAS I SUPPOSED TO KNOW PROBABILITY TO DETERMINE HOW LIKELY GETTING HIT WAS I MEAN I FLUNKED OUT OF ALGEBRA I HAHAHAHAHA BUGGED DODGE MECHANICS

>>376954076
its not a genre, you massive dipshit

>>376957465
>turn-based games are...games that take no reflexes to play

That is the only thing you said worth a damn, the rest is you driveling on like a retard and pretending that your opinion is fact.

Chess isn't a game of skill, confirmed.

>>376957674
Because we're talking about video games.

ill admit to a bad turn based system, which is suikoden

turn based only works when there is a sliver of strategy.

if you can just point your strongest attackers at the boss, burn through your meatiest spells right off the bat, and heal occasionally and make it out alive that is shitty design.

one of the best turn based rpg's is final fantasy 10 because the battles require thought and trial and error. status ailments and switching out party members. the game is supposed to give you plenty of options for you to choose to overcome the enemy unit(s)

>>376957698
Wait for Divinity: Original Sin 2.

>>376954076
yes

>>376954076
Yup. Shit's boring as hell.

>>376954076
I guess I'd really say its not that its outdated, its just that its usually done wrong, even things like random encounters could be done right e.g. any roguelike that has avoidable and non hostile random encounters

Turn based combat just shouldn't be so simple like JRPGs like FF or Pokemon or even stuff like old school crpg dungeon crawlers, Paper Mario adds complexity by adding dexterity while something like Grandia adds strategy to using varied moves instead basic attack, its about execution

We really need a word for non strategy turn based combat too cause the OPS question is vague.

>>376957497
All sources claim otherwise.

>>376957802
>comparing Chess to any video game
You overestimate how good AI is

>>376954076
No that's retarded. Board games and card games are turn-based and people have been playing those for 1000s of years.

>>376957969
>or even stuff like old school crpg dungeon crawlers
I would kill for RPGs to be even half as involving as a classic Wizardry game, let alone the actually good ones.

The main skill/strategy in turn-based systems tends to be in resource management across an entire dungeon run rather than actual execution of combat mechanics. This results in dilemmas like "I could use [strong/weakness-exploiting move] to end combat now, but I could also use a normal attack for 'free,' but then the enemy might do damage which I'll have to spend resources to heal back up" etc etc

Persona does this pretty well in that the goal of the dungeon gameplay is generally to get what you want done accomplished in as few in-game days as possible, which requires efficient SP usage because if you run dry the only "free" way to get it back is to leave and come back the next day.

>>376957465
>no matter how hard you try to justify it
This is why you're such a colossal reddit-tier dipshit. No one has to justify anything- entertainment is entirely subjective. The fact that you think you can argue against an OPINION shows how ignorant you are. I'd assume you were a nigger, however you did manage to string words together so I guess that can't be the case.

>>376957698
Highly recommend Divinity OS. Also Pillars of Eternity, the first Dragon Age game, Neverwinter Nights and XCOM games are good.

No, it's implemented poorly, because it ends up tedious instead of engaging. A thousand random battles where the same three strategies always work isn't exactly playing up the strenghts of turn-based combat (thinking about your moves, improving resource usage).

>>376954076
It's a gameplay system not a genre, and I don't think it's outdated but it would be great to see more people experiment with how they could fuse elements from this system with action combat games.

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>>376957465
>no reflexes

What's your point?

>>376957465

>He claims videogames are all about reflexes and skill
>avoids confrontation when challenged in a fighting game, the pinnacle of real time action gameplay based on pure skill and reflexes

Yeah, no. Keep dodging poser.

>playing ff2(4)
>if you want time to continue in battle, select active, otherwise time will freeze while choosing spells
>make sure it's set to wait
>still get hit while going through the spell menu

What am I doing wrong

>>376958164
Played most of them, thinking about giving DA:O a try but can't get myslef to download it. Is it worth it ?

>>376957151
>This applies to every clunky fantasy action game to ever exist, from FFXV

XV has much better core gameplay than most FF games though, it's just that this doesn't matter because of how forgiving it is.

>>376957227
>Also, turn-based combat allows for massively more control of your characters

Which almost never matters. Please, please give me an example of turn based vidya with tactical depth on par with Starcraft, I dare you.

>>376957465
>Do nothing and get hit
Or you could try buffing your agility, or debuffing the enemy's agility, or putting the enemies with higher agility to sleep, or paralyzing them, or charming them, or just killing them first. You can even persuade them depending on the game. How about giving the slower part members equipment to boost their agility?

>JRPG fans trying to talk about turns vs real time in all vidya

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>>376957674
Inarticulate? 80% of /v/ doesn't even know that "video games" is two separate words. There is little intelligence to be found here, anon. People come here mostly to argue and find out what they should be angry about in the gaming world.

>>376957008
Persona on hard is not bad, especially if you try and complete the dungeons in one run it requires a lot of strategic MP conservation. Worst thing about it is the RNG of having to guess opponents weaknesses.

>>376958041
No, they don't.
Waiting for your source you retarded faggot.

>>376958292
Commands that were preselected still go off in menus. Hell, you could cheese that to get more turns in VI by pausing during your animations to halt the ATB and stop enemies from queueing attacks while letting it run during enemy animations since they can't queue during them.

>>376958302
It's good but now that I'm thinking of it, it isn't exactly turn-based. It's a strategy type game where you pause the action manually to queue up commands.

>>376956078
>Why does SE insist on alienating FF fanbase by catering to the most casual faggots who hate the genre while allowing DQ to stay true to its roots?
What is true to Final Fantasy roots? Final Fantasy has experimented here and there with customization, growth, and battle mechanics. Sometimes not radically, other times like FFXV they did so radically or make a MMORPG. It is par course for the Final Fantasy series. Though I find it tamer than its sister series when it comes to experimenting though.

>>376958530
Like NvN or worse ?

>>376957284
unless you exploit the game or grind to hell and back like a tard you don't actually break the games until mid-late game, which is the case for most rpg games where at the end you're an invincible god curbstomping everything. try playing without looking at 7 optimization guides, job guides, loot charts, secrets guides and wikis while you progress and maybe it'd go differently.

>>376958116
this. On the harder difficulties the bosses/mini-bosses require some strategy, especially with the buffs/debuffs and things like whether to use move-extending magic, all-out-attacks or moves buffed with baton pass.

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>>376958221
>Implying anyone who praises JRPG combat is any good at Chess

>>376958614
it's very similar to NWN only you have to hit the space bar every few seconds to pause the game and issue your commands. NWN2 may have been like this but I didn't play that one.

>>376957935
>>376957936
>>376957465
>>376957072
>>376956989
>>376956985
>>376956836
>>376956821
>>376956664
>>376956276
>>376955592
>>376954161
For your own good, so you can both enjoy a great game, and to never talk like a retarded ignorant again, go play Open Xcom right now.

>>376958650
It doesn't take a genius to notice how monk damage scales with PA, or to stack magic gear on a summoner, or to use Ninja at all, especially in combination with Martial Arts, or to simply get Two Handed on any of the unique sword skill users, or to spam archers in TO because they're blatantly overpowered.

You're just a fucking retard who can't put two and two together.

>>376958318
Core gameplay? You mean alternating between holding dodge and attack buttons while circling around the enemies to strike them from behind?
The novelty of the combat system in XV lasts only during the honeymoon period. Then the cardboard cutout falls over and you are left with a bitter realization that there isn't any actual depth to it.

>>376954076
turn based (next character selects their next action) systems are bad

round based (everyone selects their actions at once) systems are good

ATB is one of the worst systems to exist

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>>376958776
>mfw timestop in NWN
>keep pausing/unpausing and chaining up spells because the pausing was glitchy
>raining enough spells on motherfuckers to make my toaster go down to 1fps

>>376958896

Nothing in game tells you that ninja exists or how to get it, you have to look it up. Those other things you mentioned aren't that strong.

>>376954076
Chess, Dungeons and Dragons, nearly every board game or pen and paper rpg is turn based.

I don't think it's outdated, just doesn't get the love it needs, todays youth want more explosions, more 'loot' more flashes and bangs and big weapons, more more more.

It's one of the foundations of not just vidya, but how we played games before vidya even existed, by taking turns.

tl;dr hope not

>>376958896
This. Other guy is a retard and should neck himself.

>>376958797
I think they'd rather talk to other FF fags about which FF is the best. they don't like other games

>>376957854
>one of the best turn based rpg's is final fantasy 10

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

https://youtu.be/dSZ471KoHCU?t=2m33s

>>376957284
PSP TO is probably the fastest-flowing SRPG I've played, though FFT is definitely slow, no matter what version. Additionally, the menu scrolling and navigation is so smooth, your turns can go by in seconds if you know where everything is, even if you're in one of the later battles where you have 24 people on the battlefield.

>>376959110
It's in the manual you fucking faggot.

>>376959110
>aren't that strong
>PA jacking = blowing everything up in one shot for a good portion of the game
>MA jacking on Summoner = blowing entire crowds up in one shot
>not that strong

>>376959204
Seems like a glitch being abused.

And even so, yeah, there's a noob button. Doesn't mean you have to abuse it.

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No. It's not, I played Earthbound and Mother 3 a couple months ago and had a lot of fun.

Mother 3 especially had an interesting turn-based mechanic. Just nowadays implementing an innovative feature is a must.

>>376958697
Chess is a bad game because it's turn based and turn based is always all bad.

This isn't a misrepresentation of the argument. It is the argument, applied to chess.

>>376959110
>Nothing in game tells you that ninja exists
Except for all the ninjas you fight?

>or how to get it, you have to look it up
Or if you get a ninja, if you want another unit to change into one, THE GAME TELLS YOU NEED TO TRAIN ONE.

>Those other things you mentioned aren't that strong.
Confirmed for never playing the game even once.

>>376958925
>The novelty of the combat system in XV lasts only during the honeymoon period. Then the cardboard cutout falls over and you are left with a bitter realization that there isn't any actual depth to it.

Which is different from the combat in any other FF how?

>>376959208
I only played the original, where it was still extremely slow.

>>376959110
Nothing except leveling up your jobs, which will happen naturally. Soon as you hit level 2 Squire, you unlock Knight, which happens very early in the game, and that's all you need to know, since the other jobs will unlock as you level up the other jobs. You won't know the exact level, but that's unimportant. Now, if we're talking about Dark Knight and Onion Knight, yeah, you need to read up on how to get those, or in the case of OK, how to make it good.

>>376959405
FF10 is the best example terribly done turn-based JRPGs. They reduced the entire system to a very basic RPS type nobrains streamline. It's nothing but tedium and impossible to fail.

>>376959682
No, impossible to fail is FFVI and FFVII.

>>376954076
gaming is an outdated genre

>>376959682
FF10 has a fairly decent turn-based system until you hit the postgame, where only one routine is relevant. Until then, there's actually a lot of variation possible. Just... once you're hitting the special bosses, it's quick attack spam.

>>376959441
Chess is a good game because it's turn based and turn based is always all good.

This is a representation of the argument. It is the argument, applied to chess.

>>376959530
Well, check out the PSP remake one day, As a game, I like it even more than FFT because of the gameplay, the new stuff and how the old stuff was updated too.

>Chess is a bad game because it's turn based and turn based is always all bad.

Nobody is actually arguing this though.

People are just, rightly, pointing out that that vast, vast majority of turn based video games have shit gameplay and the kinds of people who do defend them generally have little appreciation of the tactics in games that actually provide more strategic depth, whether they be real time or turn based.

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>>376954076

Turn based JRPG combat was never good.

>>376957854
>if you can just point your strongest attackers at the boss, burn through your meatiest spells right off the bat, and heal occasionally and make it out alive that is shitty design.
A lot of old SNES RPGs are actually surprisingly well balanced if you just go straight through the game without too many side distractions. The problem is if you ever get lost due to vague directions or bad translation the difficulty curve goes right out the window because you end up accidentally grinding even if you didn't mean to.

>muh final fantasy

make it stop

>>376959804
>and turn based is always all good.
But no one claimed that.
>>376959848
But this guy >>376957465 did.

>>376959804
In this case, you are misrepresenting the argument.

The poster in particular said that all turn based games suck.

>>376954076
It's fine for mobile gaming.

>>376959869
It's funny because only four mainline Final Fantasy games are even turn based.

>>376959848
>Nobody is actually arguing this though.
Been literally unequivocally stated.

>>376959881
>>376959941
what argument? I just saw your opinion on the front page and changed it to mine. do I win?

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>>376954076
>18
>first turn-based game I beat was Pokemon Emerald when I was a kid
>went through my teens in the 7th and 8th gens
>all I had to play were mediocre action titles that either copied arkham combat or were cover shooters that added a few gimmicks
>got bored and stopped playing games for 2-3 years
>get around to playing FFVII two years ago
>most fun and immersive gaming experience I've had in years
>been going through my 4th-7th gen backlog of jrpgs since.
They're definitely not outdated if I was able to get into the genre so recently.
I think the main problem is that we need more gameplay systems that switch things up and not just the old copy-pasted wait&hit stuff.

>>376960025
1, 2, 3, 4 have no ATB and 10 is entirely turn based as well iirc.

>>376960025
>>only four mainline final fantasy games are even turned based
>FF 1-6 basic turn based
>FF 7-14 change mechanics and added some real time events, still combat by turns
What did he mean by this?

>>376960025
1-3 and which is the other one? 4 Heroes of Light is also turn-based, but that's not part of the main series.

>>376960127
IV introduced ATB.

>>376959592

Why would you ever reach level 4 on thief on any character on a blind playthrough? The only reason to do it is if you know from looking it up that it gets you the ninja class.

>>376960127
IV uses ATB, in fact it was the introduction of it.

I,II, III and X are turn based - although X's is quite different from the first three.

>>376958896
and do tell me, how do you unlock the ninja job in early-mid game without looking up job guides? unless you somehow want one uit of every single job, you probably won't level half of them high enough and even if you did, without grinding it's highly unlikely you'd level anything in an efficient manner. in fact, the game explains very little in terms of how stat growths and such work so you'd probably not be levelling very efficiently without guides there. so yeah, good luck with that monk when you spent the last 10 lvls as a blm because you wanted some specific skill but now your PA is complete shit.

as for archers in TO, while they are indeed powerful, at no point are you forced to run a full party of them, you can even go with none at all. if you claim them being powerful breaks the game then maybe stop being a nigger and spamming them. you have tons of other classes to choose from.

i sincerely don't get faggots like you who claim some completely optional feature/part of the game breaks it. are you really so stupid you can't help but use some game-breaking item or character even though it kills your enjoyment?

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turn based is for brainless weebs and cucks with no reflexes. Keep clinging on to that past, grandpa

>>376960127
4 is the game that introduced ATB. It just didn't have bars until the PSP remake.

>>376960048
More like people get tired of actually explaining the argument to retarded turn boys and just do a simplified statement they can digest.

>>376960025
the point is final fantasy combat systems are pretty low tier, so it's kind of painful to read a load of bads going on about them as though they matter

>>376959848
>People are just, rightly, pointing out that that vast, vast majority of turn based video games have shit gameplay
true
> the kinds of people who do defend them generally have little appreciation of the tactics in games that actually provide more strategic depth, whether they be real time or turn based.
t. went around the world and interviewed every turn based fan

come on, at least make a legitimate argument unlike everyone else in this thread-'they are bad'

>>376960162
Final Fantasy X is turn based, believe it's formal name is Conditional Turn Base.

>>376960168
>>376960252
>>376960242
>>376960214
No shit?
All these years never knew.

>>376954076
"Turn based" is only an outdated mechanic if you think turn based immediately implies Final Fantasy 3 or its ilk.

There's a lot of turn based games that have nothing to do with that. Fucking Puzzle Quest is a turn-based game.

It's too broad a descriptor to be useful in this kind of question.

>>376954076
They're good, its just nobody's ever tried updating it, and make it better. Its always the same exact turn mechanic even in modern games.

>>376960217
>t. could never beat a turn-based game on anything other than easy/normal
>probably shit at shooters and fighting games too

>>376960147
ATB is not truly turn-based though. Turn-based is when the game pauses to let you choose an action, like the first three FFs. In ATB, each unit in battle has its own wait bar, and when that fills up, they take action. It's really an evolution of turn-based systems.

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It's more of a case-by-case basis. If the primary draw of the RPG is the story, then it's not a good game. I'm sorry guys, I don't care if the story is the "whole point" of an RPG, it shouldn't be a video game if it can't also deliver stellar gameplay. Games like Xenogear, Final Fantasy 6, Xenoblade, Earthbound, Undertale, Chrono Trigger, and etc are kind of terrible when you rip out the entire plot. you end up just grinding on mobs for the whole game, occasionally fighting a braindead boss.

>>376960252
Hardest backpedaling in the thread so far.

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>>376958429
>2003年4月1日 - スクウェアとエニックスが合併し、商号を株式会社スクウェア・エニックスに変更(手続き上の存続会社は、エニックス)。
Square fucked themselves big time with Spirits Within but I doubt you were alive back then to remember that.

>>376960217
>brainless weebs
>press x to open door
>press a to get protag to climb that cliff and rescue the princess
>fightan' games with 2 main buttons
>fightan games with 8 buttons but everyone only uses 2
>muh map markers
>muh quest hints
>muh overpowered weapons to clear levels
>muh cheatcc
>muh perma death
>muh artificial difficulty
>muh souls

vidya today is fucking EASY, cunt here shitting themselves ZOMG SOULS SO HARD HOW DO I WALK ON DA LEDGE I GET SHOT OFF

you're retarded

>>376959529
I assume it probably isn't if you mash A in battles and grind like a retard.

>>376960574
Sometimes I think I'm the only one who actually liked that movie.

>>376954076
no, almost all new ones are just boring trash sadly

>>376960216
Seriously? Mediator one into your party. It's easy as fuck to have a mediator by the time they start showing up as enemies and it's not like Summoner isn't fucking the game in the ass before that point.

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>>376960719

Why can't both Turn-Based RPGs and Action RPGs exist at the same time?

>>376960904
Because /v/ can't handle more than one thing being good.

>>376960904
Because durr durr turn based outdated even though Dragon Slayer is fucking older than DQ.

>>376954076
>turn based
>posting a game with ATB, not a turn based system
Masterful troll, I can see why the thread is up to 200 replies already.

>>376960497
>If gameplay's not stellar it shouldn't be a video game

Why would you not include world exploration, sidequests, etc. as part of gameplay? There's more that sets video games apart from other media than just the things that directly make you win or lose.

I hate how every time people claim Action is better the only reason they can give is the movement and manual dodging.
Dodging takes no skill whatsoever.
In pretty much any action game dodging is probably the easiest way to avoid any situation and doesn't require skill at all, it's just press the dodge button and move in the direction you want to dodge.
Games like asscreed even made the whole affair simpler because now all you have to do is hold the button down and your character dodges for you.

>>376954076
It's a genre that is hated by ADHD ridden kids

>>376961117
There are retards who unironically don't know the difference unfortunately.
Just look at >>376960147

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>>376961117
>ATB
> not a turn based system

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>>376961331
>ACTIVE time battle
>Turn based

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>>376955592
>All turn-based games only require you to do 2 things: Heal when low in HP and use the enemy's weakness. That's literally all it boils down to. No matter how many other mechanics they thrown in there, it's just healing and finding out the weakness. That's not "strategic", that's just repetitive.

>>376960098
Jesus christ is she cute.

>>376961448
It's active turn based, retard.

I've never seen anyone like a regular at fighting game tournaments, or someone with a high rank on fish's SCBW ladder, or a master or GM SC2 player, or a 5k+ dota player, go out of their way to rag on turn based games for not being skillful enough.

It's always just venting guys who are mediocre at doing anything. They pay attention to what the upper tier players of real time games can do and are starstruck by it, so they feel the need to talk about it as loudly as possible.

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Since we all know OP is a fag post games with great turn based combat.
>combo system
>rows
>dragon system
Why was it so good?

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>>376957002
>that other squirrel in the background

>>376961802
>>376956619
It's so fucking good it's a crime that it never came overseas outside of a mobile port.

>>376961238
its not about skill

its about not watching everyone taking turns smacking each other

>All these underage faggots hating turn based

Delete /v/ jesus christ

>>376961473
It's funny how from the AI perspective chess is actually easier than fucking Pokemon.

>>376954076
Absolutely not.

>>376961932
Turn based games can look just as flashy and dynamic

>>376960860
mediator's rates are dog shit though and i don't remember how early you get recruitable ninja chars.

even then, the same argument for TO stands: if they're sopowerful maybe just don't use a full party of them. sure, you could have a full party of dual-weilding powerhouses, or you could choose not to. just don't complain if you choose to do something that clearly renders the game too easy. sure, having something that can break the game in the first place is a flaw, but if you can avoid, don't complain that you did it anyway.

>>376961974
I'm 25 and I hate it, it's outdated you old man

>>376962003
Not sure. Chess has no probability, but branches much heavier. Pokemon could actually be easier.

>>376962147
The game is easy even if you don't break it.

Turn based combat as a concept is fine.

ATB is absolute dog shit that actively works against the player.

Long and/or unskippable animations are insufferable.

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Just give idiots who hate it this, its the perfect casual filter.

>>376962181
I bet you own a fidget spinner

>>376962076
yes but those people want an active fight

>>376961135

Do you give me a reason to explore the world, or partake in sidequests? If it's just to unlock some garbage about the story, or stuff I don't care to use anyway, then it's not helping.

For example, I'd love to undertake a dungeon quest to find +5 sword of kicking asses. but I don't want to grind in a field fighting blue ice scream scoops just to get some douchebag's journal that tells me about so and so's backstory.

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>>376962181
I'm 25, and I love it.

>>376962283
/thread

>>376962340
>I bet you own a fidget spinner
This better become a more common insult.

>>376954076
No.

>>376962224
I think it might depend on if the computer knows the opponent's team going in. If the computer does then it would be much easier to figure out the opponent's strategy.

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>>376962181
Whatever you say, Plebby McPlebface

Serious question, why do you guys like ATB? It just makes me wait to do what I want, how do you feel it adds to combat? Its not terrible or anything but I don't see how it makes turn based deeper.

>>376956276
FF XV is the japanese Shadow of Mordor.

>>376954076
According to Stick of Truth hell no.

Everyone loved that game and Fractured But Whole is adding tactics style tile movement in combat so its only getting better

>>376962675
If it doesn't, it's even easier, because you don't have to plan ahead for what you don't know, hence the computer only has to focus on the current battle.

If any of you have ever played the Desolate Hope, that's how you do an RPG right.

>>376962224
Hypothetically, AI capable of playing Pokemon at the competitive level while being able to adapt to every setup and moveset would have to be far more advanced than AI playing Chess.
That's why the post game "challenges" rely so hard on rigged rng instead.

>>376962840
>That's why the post game "challenges" rely so hard on rigged rng instead.
Or maybe it's because the game is running on a gameboy instead of deep blue.

>>376962371
>If it's just to unlock some garbage about the story, then it's not helping.

I agree with the sentiment, tying gameplay in with the story is always the best way to get the player involved. But it's not always appropriate. Just because you don't value side stories / world building / exploration by themselves doesn't mean those are pointless, and that a video game shouldn't have them as a main selling point. Games can present that kind of stuff in ways that other media can't.

>>376963114

If you want worldbuilding, then it should be done in the way that Metroid Prime did it. Have it be scattered around, let me explore for it at my own pace. Don't consider it a reward that can top off a sidequest. When I go off the beaten path to search for something, I may enjoy finding the occasional tidbit of info, but I want something at the end that's more tangible, like a new weapon, a new ability, or a new area to explore with new goodies.

>>376962925
It's not like you need Deep Blue to beat an average mind at Chess, though.

>>376954076
No

>>376954487
This

It is not outdated in the west nor east.

Only underage plebs think otherwise.

>>376963547

That's really got nothing to do with your initial claim, which was that if a game's story is the main draw for a game, it shouldn't be a video game.

>>376963917

It connects into my main point: my reward when I progress in a game should be more fun gameplay, perhaps going upward in difficulty and/or skill required. If you reward any sidequest I do with pointless garbage plot advancement and nothing else, then I get pissed.

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>>376962778
Let's be real. That game had plenty of merits but the depth of combat wasn't one of them.
It was poorly balanced, way too easy to break and had enemies scaling with your level which made any progression superficial.

>>376954076
Megaten, FFX/2, Grandia and tons of other turn based SRPG's like FE and XCOM say otherwise.

>>376963547
Fuck off ACfag

>>376964107
Well duh. Especially if you do manbearpig early on accident.

I was just saying it sold really well among normies so its not a dead genre by any mans.

>>376964531
>Especially if you do manbearpig early on accident.
Wait what?

Do you mean Al Gore?

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>>376964381

>>376964628
Yeah I do.

I just like to call him that in the game, wasnt the quest called that or something as well?

>>376964773
Oh right, he actually - Right.
I just remember you didn't fight the REAL manbearpig in the game.

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>being so autistic that you think the most essential form of gameplay
>the ORIGINAL form of gameplay
>with established rules and turn order
>is somehow
>fucking
>outdated
How RETARDED can you FUCKING NORMALFAGS BE?

>>376964925
Yeah, hopefully butthole will have it and other missed opportunities

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>>376957465
>>Oh no I'm about to get hit, I'll move out of the way since you know, I can actually control my character.
>Get hit anyway because hitscan

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>>376955592
Pic related says otherwise.

>>376955592
>Videogames are supposed to test your reflexes
[Citation needed]

>>376954487
What are your thoughts on the Starcraft remaster?

>>376956276
It requires thinking, and can be just as deep if not more in-depth than real time

It's both funny and sad that people that can't get into turn-based games call them outdated. I don't go around calling first person shooters or sports games "outdated" just because I don't enjoy them.

>>376956445
>Getting lost

>>376956276
>I have never played a non-casual RPG in my life

Your typical SMT or better yet Wizardry game would eat the fuck out of you.

>>376954076
yes but it's still better than what you get nowadays like in xenoblade

>>376954076
As ling as people enjoy it it's not outdated. Videogames are mean't to be fun.

>>376954076
They're certainly not difficult or engaging. they're good for children

>>376956276
I didn't know a game had to be another competitive moba/fps/souls clone to be fun. 18-22?

I almost exclusively prefer turn-based games: puzzles, point and click adventures, HOGs, SRPGs, grand strategy. There's something to be said for the visceral entertainment of a vert or twin-stick shmup, but that's not the kind of game you play for hundreds of hours.

>>376954076

In this ff'esque setting? Kinda, it works for some niches like persona thou.

In general? No, it s the best medium to show different power levels, a important roleplay aspect. Things like ff tactics, tactics ogre, age of decadence, expedition vikings etc are good ones.

>>376954076
>ATB
>Turn based
Retard

>>376958797
Xcom is fucking shit.

> 99.99% chance to hit
> misses EVERY TIME

I can't tell you how many fucking times I've seen this bullshit happen in Xcom. It's fucking horrifying how the chances to hit is a total lie.

Xcom is also fucking shit if you don't rush satellite building. The scaling of the enemies are total shit and even rng of maps is fucked up.

>>376966095
Grand strategy is more RTwP.

>>376954076
IDK

>>376966204
That's when it isn't set to "wait" which is the default. then it just determines the order of your attacks

I enjoy many turn based and action oriented games, fight me.

>>376954076
menus as combat is dated, if the combat is like Paper Mario at least there's some level of gameplay besides rock paper scissors. Not much but just enough.

Nah
Point and Click Adventures got your ass beat and even then some things simply don't work as anything BUT point and click.

>>376957305
>Even a relatively simple take on that concept like persona 3/4/5 is higher IQ then the hardest action game.
>what is Vanquish God Hard
>what is God Hand KMS
>what is a GoW1 No Upgrade Run
>what is Ninja Gaiden 2 Master Ninja
>what is KH2FM Lv 1 Critical
You need to play games that aren't dating sims.

>>376957361
>casuals suck at games
Water is wet, more at 11.

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>>376967343
>what is God Hand KMS
Perfection.

>>376957854
>one of the best turn based rpg's is final fantasy 10
>Quick Hit: The Game
Sad.

There will always be a market for slow paced turn based games with lots of text since they're very good for early reading development, and for end of life gaming.
The older I get the more I hope that classic turn based JRPGs don't go away because I know I'm going to get to a point where they may be all I can play.

>>376967778
You won't get Quick Hit until after Gagazet on a normal play through.

>>376967847
They're also great for after work gaming, when you don't have the energy to play something requiring reflexes or precision, and just slump in your chair/couch.

>>376958369
>implying action games can't do all this as well or better while still having the advantage of real time

Persona 5

>>376965347
It looks like it's trying to be true to the original but they aren't doing a great job with some of it. I will hold judgment until it comes out.

>>376961238
>Dodging takes no skill whatsoever.
Confirmed for never touching an action game.

>>376968139
>as well or better
You fucking wish. Turn based has the advantage of letting you use multiple of those listed commands in one go since you're controlling more than one person. I can't imagine an action game doing this without it being cumbersome.

>>376968818
Maybe he only played Shadows of Mordor.

the first dungeon/cave in dragon quest 8 is literal perfection in jrpg form.

why was it so good?

>>376969209
You talking about the waterfall cave for th crystal ball? Seemed like any old dungeon to me. VIII is overrated in my opinion honestly. III, IV, V, and VII are much better games.

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Most action RPG's are dull. They often inflate enemies HP to make them spongy, lack any semblance of level design and enemy placement, go on for far too long than they should for the combat they have, and they start too slow due to having access to such a low pool of skills to utilize in battle. Not only that, the action based parts often nullify the stat based mechanics in developing your character because player skill will always circumvent any RPG elements so you end up with a slow, uninspired action game.

Play an actual action game, that is what I do when I don't want turn based combat.

>>376969107
>Turn based has the advantage of letting you use multiple of those listed commands in one go
>one go
>characters take turns doing them consecutively

>I can't imagine an action game doing this without it being cumbersome.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqRqHM7RhyU

>>376954076
I still like turn based, but prefer real time. I don't mind turn based in SMT, though it's kinda boring.

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>>376969487
>VII
>Better than VIII

>>376969502
>Most action RPG's are dull.
Most games of every genre are dogshit.

>They often inflate enemies HP to make them spongy, lack any semblance of level design and enemy placement
What sort of trash are you wasting your time with?

>because player skill will always circumvent any RPG elements
>being able to win through knowledge, familiarity and skill in adverse conditions is a bad thing

>so you end up with a slow, uninspired action game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sW5KSBxei-c

>>376969537
>one go
You know what I meant, smart-ass, in one side's turn.
And I don't what that video is supposed to prove, all I see are enemies being juggled.

Which are some turn based games that are good?

>people who play games with pause buttons think they can judge people who play turn based games

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>>376954076

Turn based gameplay is completely obsolete, it requires absolutely no skill or reflexes, that's why no one plays them anymore.

>>376969971
Posting KH2 isn't helping.

>>376966212
>EVERY TIME
i know you're exaggerating but come on

>>376970250
>You know what I meant, smart-ass, in one side's turn.
>one side's
>characters aren't acting based on their individual speeds and turn priority anymore

>And I don't what that video is supposed to prove
See that number to the left of the health bar? Guess what that's referring to?

there are good turn based games, the genre itself will never be obsolete

however final fantasy is a terrible example of the genre and it's specific brand of braindead grindatrons should rightfully be dead and buried

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>>376970426
>tfw we can have games more complex and deep than chess but AAA developers are jews who sell commercial generic crap and indies are retards making pixel art retro shit

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Ahhh, no.

>>376970462
True, turn based fags aren't going to know good gameplay when they see it.

>>376970615
If you're grinding in a Final Fantasy game for anything other than post game content you're the braindead one.

>>376970615
>it's specific brand of braindead grindatrons
u wot m9?

Every popular FF and other jrpg I have played requires zero grinding except for end game type stuff with superbosses. What do you run from every encounter and then get upset you cant beat an easy boss?

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>>376969893
Yeah, it's actually my favorite game in the series and one of my favorite games ever made. The class system, structure with the islands, and the stories and main plot are phenomenal. It is what I consider a perfect jrpg.

>>376970798
you don't have to grind, but virtually every single fight in those games feels like you're grinding

>>376970594
Now you're just being pedantic.
I don't know much about W101, what does the number mean?

>>376954076

FF6 has some underrated music, I don't think people realize it even better than people have said up to this point.

>>376970793
Just because I don't like action RPG's doesn't mean I don't enjoy action games. Action RPG's think they can forgo level design and enemy placement since it isn't turn based so the user has direct input but it already puts it lower than standard action based games.

okay faggots.

What do you consider good shit any turn based combat must have?

>>376971118
The class system IN THEORY is amazing but the amount of grinding it takes as well as some classes straight up being not as good as others kind of bring it down.
Didn't play the 3DS version though so not sure if they changed anything about it.
>>376971503
>One of the most acclaimed soundtracks of all time and recognized by many as the best ever
>Underrated
How old are you? Be honest.

>>376971693
A way to predict and influence turn order. Interrupts, slow/speed moves, ally advance, anything like that. Plus a mechanic that makes doing it worth it besides "more turns" (random bonuses, chain bonuses).

>>376971740
>>One of the most acclaimed soundtracks of all time and recognized by many as the best ever


Nope. Still not praised enough.

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>active time battle fags are still in full denial about their system being dead

lmao sorry your ill-conceived attempt at making battles "exciting" didn't work out, babs

>>376971693
Cthulhu saves the world, even if it is a meme game, had a nice combo system and character progression. Also it disabled random encounters in the floor after a set amount of fights

>>376971258
How many characters you're controlling.

>>376971637
>Action RPG's think they can forgo level design and enemy placement
DaS1, BB, and KH1 and 2 all have very good enemy placement, so I'm not sure what you're going on about.

>it already puts it lower than standard action based games.
That makes zero fucking sense. Level design and enemy setups are important but they don't override core mechanics and standard action games are hardly better in regards to fight environments unless you're talking GoW, which goes out of its way to make the environment a big deal.

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>>376971740
The thing is that the length makes this not much a problem. I love the progression I feel as I see the my characters keep growing a set closer to my ultimate goal and class for them. Maybe that's just me, I loved this and each islands little plot and story. The 3ds version definitely helps make things a bit easier t understand. Don't listen to idiots who say "muh casualization", they just think less bullshit means easier.

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>200+ posts
>nobody posted the goat current ff game

>>376972405
>Anor Londo archers
>Good enemy placement
3/10 bait, got me to respond.

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>>376954076
Persona 5 and pokemon sold more than FFXV so no

>>376972536
>game so shit they make you repeat the same shit in the second half of the game
Nah, its mediocre.

>>376972575
>Persona 5
lol

>>376972076
You're controlling a lot of characters at once, but it doesn't look like they can all be commanded individually.

>>376972575
Persona 5 definitely did not sell more than Final Fantasy XV and you would have to be a genuine retard to think otherwise.

>>376972542
>one gimmicky example invalidates the enemy placement of the rest of the game

>>376972535
>I loved this and each islands little plot and story.
I enjoyed this a lot too, the story of the gardener (Pepe?) still gets me and I really like how you revisit each area in the future to see your effect and how some people even recognize you from 'legends' passed down. Also VII has a GOAT OST.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZXOd7-LVCA

>>376972698
You can command them to split off in multiple groups and perform attacks independently of you.

>>376957305
What about action games that require you to think about your tools? For example, Alien Soldier gives you a limited number of shot types which you can choose at the beginning of the game. Any shot not being used will charge automatically. Collecting a powerup that is the same as the one you currently have selected will increase your max stock, while collecting a different one will change your shot type but not increase your max stock. Having appropriate shot types that can affect an enemy while not running out is necessary or your run can end in seconds.

>>376954076

It's not a genre. But it's an outdated mechanic for RPGs. Squeenix knows this which is why they're not using turn-based for their FF7 remake. Nobody wants shitty slow menus and wait times in their fights. Back then, it was fast. Now it's too slow.

It's not turn-based combat that's the problem, it's the JRPG casual shit that is so persistent and boring. A little history lesson: the earliest popular JRPG's (Like Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest) took basically all their influence from even older computer WRPGs (namely Ultima and Wizardry; which themselves were largely based on tabletop DnD games). The difference is that early WRPGs were built on computers, whereas JRPGs were built for consoles. Consoles with 2 buttons. When they made the combat for the early JRPGs, it was pretty much as simple as possible. WRPGs experimented and messed around with combat and varying levels of complexity during the 80's and 90's, while most of the JRPG genre has pretty much been Final Fantasy 1 for 35 years.

>>376955592
What this person says is largely true, in the case of plenty of games. Seriously, journalists/fans who say FF6 is the best RPG ever are the previous generation's equivalent of those who think Skyrim and Fallout 4 are the best games ever (incorrect).

>>376967343
>Self imposed challenge is a true game