Legacy of Kain

Ask me what you didn't understand and I'll try my best to explain.

Yes. And it did.

>>376952364
>get betrayed and thrown down
>wants revenge
Oh wow so hard!

>>376952587
What was the elder god trying to do and how did his actions support this?
Same question as above, but replace Elder God with just about any other character (Kain, Mobius, Ariel, Vorador...)

If Vorador was the first human-turned-vampire, which only was a thing after the ancient war between the vampires and the hylden, and Vorador made the soul reaver, why did the murals of the war depict the soul reaver?

If Vorador is killed during Defiance, how is he present in Soul Reaver 2 and Blood Omen 2?

>>376952935
This was about the only part that was clear and made sense.

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>>376953352
>why did the murals of the war depict the soul reaver?
It doesn't. It decipts a bloodsword the reaver is based on.

>If Vorador is killed during Defiance, how is he present in Soul Reaver 2 and Blood Omen 2?
Do not question time travel

>What was the elder god trying to do and how did his actions support this?
Stay a big fish in a small pond. Thats his goal. He is also somewhat omnipresent, making it easy to do that.
In Blood Omen, he gets Mobius to start a elaborant plot to reset the circle, mostly to exterminate the last species he doesn't feed on.
In Reaver 1, he tries to get Raziel into assassinating the remaining vampire kind, to again: Let him feed on everything
And because Reaver 1 lacks the "bad ending", he fails.
In Reaver 2 he isn't really sure what is happening anymore, which is why he is a non player beyond entrenching.

>>376953352
The Elder God is some kind of lovecraftian cosmic parasite. He hates vampires because they're immortal, which prevents him from feeding on their souls or something.

As for all the confusing and contradictory shit on murals all over the place, I prefer to disregard most of it. Moebius and others have been known to travel through time and alter things.

I thought toward the ending of Defiance, basically kain looks at a mural and can't tell whether he's depicted as the savior or the destroyer, and he decides that prophecies are just made up bullshit

>>376953479
Everything else is irrelevant

>>376952587
Let's try to follow the reaver blade itself as well.

Janos gives it to Raziel. Then Raziel kills his past self with it and nearly loses his soul to it but future Kain stops him. Then future Kain has the blade for the rest of Defiance (which includes a time jump forward of about 500 years) until Raz's soul finally goes in it. So how the fuck does the blade eventually find its way to the original Kain like he has in Soul Reaver 1 and explained in the events of Soul Reaver 2? How did the King he assassinated also get the blade?

>>376954434
>So how the fuck does the blade eventually find its way to the original Kain like he has in Soul Reaver 1

He finds it the basement of the cathedral in Blood Omen, fucking around with teleporters

>>376954232
>Do not question time travel
If you don't want me to quetion time travel, either get it right or don't put it in your fucking game. When is it even suggested that anyone other than Kain and Raziel traveled through time? Even Mobius only ever seems to "see" through time, not travel through it.

>>376954693
No one would ever use time travel because you can't get it right. There will always be some bullshit inconsistencies or loopholes.

>>376954693
>Even Mobius only ever seems to "see" through time, not travel through it.

When you fight him in Blood Omen, he opens up portals that have creatures from the past, present, and future come after you.

>>376954434
>How did the King he assassinated also get the blade?
By having the current era blade, from the same tomb Kain got it.
Kain merely picks up it from his grave later on, several indirect paradoxes later.

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>>376955098
VAE VICTUS!

>>376952364
The plot makes perfect sense unless you have a learning disability. What do you get out of pretending to be stupid? Or are you really this dumb?

>>376953352
>What was the elder god trying to do and how did his actions support this?
The elder god feeds on souls. Vampires are immortal, so he can't eat their souls. He considers this a personal insult of the highest magnitude, hence is machinations to wipe them out.
>If Vorador was the first human-turned-vampire, which only was a thing after the ancient war between the vampires and the hylden, and Vorador made the soul reaver, why did the murals of the war depict the soul reaver?
Some of the murals depict prophecy, others depict history.
>If Vorador is killed during Defiance, how is he present in Soul Reaver 2
You are in the past when you encounter him. He hadn't been killed yet.
>and Blood Omen 2?
Presumably Kain found a way to resurrect him. You'll notice in the first soul reaver game that if you remove the spear from an impaled dead vampire, its soul will dive back into the corpse and resurrect itself. Kain likely found his head and put him back together. Vampires are rather hard to put down in Legacy of Kain.

Frankly if you didn't understand the plot, I suggest paying more attention or read a wiki where they spell it out for people like you.

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>>376956195
>Do you so wish to return to the grave, old friend?

It's spelled out by Kain in Blood Omen 2 that he raised Vorador back, when they had an argument about the Nexus stone. I honestly don't know what is so difficult about this.

>>376956195
>Some of the murals depict prophecy, others depict history.

And some murals are outright lies created by Moebius

>>376955950
Is the PS1 version superior to the PC?

>>376954693
>time travel
>"get it right"
Not possible.

Who else /Mortanius/ here?

>Works together with Moebius to overthrow the ancient guardians
>Realizes what a horrible mistake he has done
>Despite being possessed actively works to undermine the plot that was centuries if not thousands of years in the making
>Ensures that Kain is equipped to deal with the future trials that lie in store for him by raising him as a vampire
>Has him destroy the circle and then lets himself be killed by him

>>376953352
I haven't played the game in a long while but there's a handy timeline guide floating around here. Basically there's maybe two or three timelines you get to play through in and that can confuse a lot because people are not used to that kind of fuckery.

>>376956881
You can play in PC with
1. Full resolution, so no mode switching
2. No load times, and those are a deal breaker
So, not really, PC is superior.

That said, its the kind of game that really benefits from a CRT, regardless.

Okay... well why was Janos' resurrection in Defiance so important? The hylden possesing him suggested it was important in collapsing the pillars and previously Kain had tried to convince Raziel not to bring him back, so he somehow thought this also.

Is there a good set of videos I could watch that explain out the games and lore and such?

>>376957130
Kain was trying to prevent Raziel from entering the sword. Janos being raised at that moment would mean that he'd attack Raziel and "destroy" him. Nobody but Raziel himself knew that he is essentially indestructible and Kain didn't have a complete picture either. Not to mention that there still were ways to erase either one of them, such as causing them to be erased by the time/history itself if they fuck with it too much.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10XK8uNQKqY

>>376957130
His possesion is what opened timeline to Blood Omen 2 (to make it very simplified)

>>376957119
PCGamingWiki says that the PC version plays at 40 fps and with slower animations tho..is there a way to fix that? otherwise that's a huge dealbreaker

>>376957718
Its competing against a PS1 game which has lag whenever there is more than 1 enemy onscreen.
Fixed 40 is a gigantic upgrade.

>>376957130
Isn't vampire kain's heart actually janos' heart as well?

>>376957476
Jesus fuck. This writing is so good. Gives me goosebumps.

>>376958168
Indeed. It's a pretty powerful artifact in its own right and was the key to making Kain durable enough to endure everything the Elder God and Hylden would throw at him.

>>376958329
Yeah but the VAs do a phenomenal job too. Really elevates everything a few extra rungs up a ladder.

>>376958753
Absolutely. Makes me even sadder thinking there will be no more LoK. And if SOMEHOW it would have happend. The bar has been set way too high.

>>376958585
I forgot why the Heart of Darkness was like that. Was it because Janos was the last pure vampire? Or was it infused with such power to make the Soul Reaver?

>>376958753
Pretty much all of LoK VA's were theater actors. It's what makes the dramatic narrative and faux Shakespearean dialogue not fall apart when acted and choreographed by the models.

>>376957119
gamepad compatible?

>>376959165
Autohotkey or bust

I think for me the only question I really have is how Raziel's soul ends up in the reaver in the first place. Janos implied that the blade was forged for him specifically, but he doesn't seem to know it is his eternal prison.

>>376959242
dropped

>>376959072
I think it was probably because Janos was so ancient and powerful. He wasn't really in any way special outside of being devoted enough to just sit still for centuries, guarding the sword, waiting for the prophesied hero to come and claim it. Janos wasn't the only one who worked on the Reaver, there were many other ancients that took part and imbued it with powerful magics, while Vorador was the one who forged the blade. It's also debatable whether Janos was really the father of the human vampires and the first ancient to pass on the curse. Vorador claims it is so, but can his judgment be really trusted in this regard? His reverence for Janos was excessive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9MGis_uqwg

>>376959374
When this was released, I was so amazed at the physics of Raziel's wings when he's faffing about.

>>376959251
It's one of the paradoxes that kain breaks. The reaver consumes raziel's soul after he kills his younger self with reaver. I don't remember how it exactly happend 1:1 because i played it years ago but kain stops the reaver from consuming raziel creating a paradox.

Raziel ends up killing while wielding Raziel that then tries to consume Raziel. 10/10

>>376959686
Raziel ends up killing Raziel*

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>>376958585
Kain is pretty stacked.
He is a Guardian, making him superhuman.
He is ritually made a vampire via DARK MAGIC, via another guardian, making him even stronger.
The Heart of Janos Ordren is used to make him even stronger.

I love how much of a power trip Blood Omen is, its unparalled.

>>376959638
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Dn0ofTgWRU

Here, have more.

>>376959686
>You're a righteous fiend, aren't you?
>Apparently, I am

Raziel vs Raziel was the sickest burns.

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>>376952364
Yes, try paying attention next time

>>376959251
It was a wild toss really, they made the Reaver in hope that according to prophecy one day someone takes it and saves the day, so the specifications how exactly it might work (if ever) werent exactly precise.

Timeline wise, Raziel (would) get absorbed at the end of SR2 after killing his original self, but it gets interrupted by Kain in current loop.

>>376959808
I like all iterations of Kain, but I do like the grim determination, a pinch of youthful arrogance and a sense of self awareness BO 1 Kain possessed.

>In life I would not have graced this place with my presence. In death, I merely added to the stench

>>376957339

Somewhere on youtube they have a couple videos that show every single cut scene in the series... its like 5 hours long

>>376960232
The pace as his monologues moves from a noble arrogant youth, to a complete monster, is baffling well paced.

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The most important thing to remember is that despite possessing free will, Raziel is the biggest pawn of all in the grand scale.

>>376960447
Eventually though his duty as a Balance Guardian took over. It was that and probably the realization that ruling over a dying world is a bittersweet affair. I'm certain that initial BO 1 Kain had only self preservation and his own benefit in mind, but his older version was concerned with greater things than that.

>>376960670
Moebius delivered an exquisite burn in regards to that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nFU1r6JVW8

>>376960670
>You will never paradox yourself so badly there is 3 of you in the same room
>And a weapon that can be possessed

Simon Templeman is retired, but does Michael Bell still do voiceacting?

>>376957942
Okay, but why do the animations have to be tied to the framerate? Really dealbreaking for me

Someone made a 6 hour long video that covers what seems to be the canon timeline if you're ever interested.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3faOccJsZc

>>376959686
Yeah, the events of BO2 happen because of Kain's actions at that moment.

>>376961067

I'm told it was much easier to program that way back in the day.

>>376961041
I don't think so, he's quite old now.

>tfw you realized over a decade later that Raziel was also Drew from Rugrats

>>376961041
He still does things, but rather minor, I'm afraid.

>>376961067
Because programming for fixed logic, means you don't need to care about performance once you have benchmarked it.
If its async, its a gigantic can of worms unless you are prepared for it.

>>376959861
I dunno, this helps, but there's still so much that doesn't seem to make sense. In the end the Hylden never got back to Nosgoth, but the pillars were also never restored. So nobody wins. And I still don't get how the reaver ever finds its way to William and past Kain if it went straight form Janos to Raziel to future Kain. I also don't get how everyone seems to just be timehopping to exactly the same times as each other - Kain meets Raziel 100 years after the collapse, then somehow knows to travel back to 500 years before?

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>>376961269
Obligatory

>>376961103
See this kind of makes sense when explained this way, but was there any indication in-game that this was the case?

>>376961661
Kain and Raziel both sensing that they have "Walked right into the enemies trap" in Defiance and in Soul Reaver 2 shortly after Kain prevented Raziel from being absorbed he gained new memories since that act changed history. He shouted at Raziel "Janos must stay dead!" as he slipped into the spectral realm, his physical body damaged irrepairable, but he was unconscious and Kain's warning was lost on him.

>>376961502
Also don't get why Kain freaks out about Janos when the events of BO2 unfold in his memories. He beats the Hylden and he knows it, so why does he care that he gave them the opportunity?

>>376961903
Because it derails the narrative even further and has Janos, be lost to the Hylden and Raziel gone from the picture entirely. It was an outcome Kain wanted to avoid at all costs.

>>376961797
>was there any indication in-game that this was the case?
There's nothing in Soul Reaver 2 to infer that the events of BO2 are created from that final paradox. It makes sense, but they didn't explain it at all. Playing BO2 I had no reason to believe it was connected at all, and not just a piece of Kain's history that hadn't been explored yet.

>>376961502
Story was never finished though. The whole reason for the Soul Reaver subseries is Kain's redemption for his selfish choice. He's been hoping for the proverbial coin to land on its edge and that has fueled his every action since he realized where Nosgoth was headed.

As for which Reaver William's has, it's never explained, but the games do mention Moebius gave it to him, of course with the whole intention of creating the Nemesis, then having Kain go back to kill him so the genocidal vampire war could be ignited, which was the Elder God's plan all along, since vampires cannot die after the Hylden cursed them. Elder God was overjoyed when Raziel just fell on his lap and he could use him to destroy Kain and his sons since his initial gambit had failed.

>>376960203
Originally he was suppose to kill Kain at William's tomb and then be absorbed into the blade correct? At least for that timeline. I'm still curious how he managed to get caught in the blade/cycle in the first place. We know plenty about how Kain ends up where he does, but almost nothing about Raziel.

>>376962206
Because Blood Omen 2 comes after Soul Reaver 2. Things are explained there. There's only so much you can set up without just flat out telling you what caused what.

>>376962241
We'll probably never know, because we get to see the outcome of his destiny being derailed, but never the original version of events.

>>376962079
So Janos has to stay dead because otherwise Janos will be lost to the Hylden realm? That's ridiculous. And Kain had no idea what would happen to Raziel.

>>376962398
Yes, because Janos can be resurrected later at any time instead of being trapped eternally in the demon realm to be tormented by his worst enemy. And Raziel being gone entirely is reason enough for Kain to attempt to avoid it. You should also bear in mind that young Kain and old Kain are different characters entirely, motivated by different things. Blood Omen 2 Kain couldn't give a shit about Janos and his ancient feuds, he pretty much let it happen.

>>376954693
They got it right just fine. You can travel to any point you want, and even change some things. Whether those changes stick is a whole other matter, as time in LoK is one singular looping sequence, no multiverse or parallel timelines here. You make a serious change, that shit is gone and replaced.

>>376962398
Janos has to stay dead until Kain figures out a way out of this whole quagmire he got himself tangled in. That's way better than what happened to the guy.

Oh yeah and how the fuck did vampire Turel get sent back to the past? And for what purpose?

>>376961903
He "remembers" what happens, but in that moment in time, it hasn't happened yet. He sees he has a chance to avert all that shit going down, but it's too late because Raziel fades into the Spectral Realm before he can hear Kain's words and have a proper talk. After that, Raziel was led right into the Hylden trap during Defiance's events

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>>376961529

>>376952364

OP it's quite simple.

Kain refused the sacrifice.

>>376962535
>And Raziel being gone entirely
Why would wraith Raziel have been hanging out with the younger Kain? His absense in during the events of BO2 don't imply anything bad happened to him.

>>376962706
He was summoned by Azimuth and kept in that pit, apparently. Then Hylden used his body as a temporary vessel to inhabit and direct their "disciplies". Turel describes it himself in Defiance.

>>376962865
BWOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

>>376962706
It's briefly mentioned in the original Blood Omen, that Azimuth the Planer summoned him to that time with Moebius' time-streaming chamber, but it's not until you meet him in Defiance that you can fully piece together what happened

>>376962868
Because it is safe to assume that the memories of old Kain are tied to his own existence, the manipulations of history only changing things that they affected and he doesn't see Raziel in them anymore. It was also possible that somewhere in the future he would learn that Raziel became imprisoned and "swept from the board".

>>376961041

He recently this year came back to Blizzard to voice Medivh the Guardian in Warcraft's Legion expansion for the first major patch around November iirc. They had Liquid Snake's VA voice the character in Hearthstone prior but otherwise nope

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>>376960670

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>>376963536

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>>376963645

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>>376963721

>>376952364

It USED to make sense when amy henning wasn't writing it.

>Blood Omen - amazing story
>Soul reaver - LE TOMB RAIDER CLONE WITH LE EPIC VAMPOIRS XDDD
>Soul reaver 2 - we want the time paradox audience
>Defiance - we went full retard and followed trends into obscurity, who cares lol I'm gonna go write uncharted in 4 months lmao!!!

>>376961067

because the games were fully hand drawn with pixels you fucking autistic child

>>376963986
>not even a new IP
Damn, man. You don't need to make drama just to bump up a dying thread.

>>376962971
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xgzbyd2MhbE

>>376963986
The fuck are you talking about? It made sense when Amy was writing it. And Cuckman is the shit behind the Uncharted games.

>>376963986 What about Blood Omen 2 and Nosgoth.

>>376963949
I still can't get over the fact that Anna Gunn, Skyler White from Breaking Bad, voiced Ariel.

>>376962552
so why isnt he dead then

>>376965032
Who? Kain? He never changes anything that affects his birth, and is lucky to not be expelled from existence when he causes a big paradox like preventing Raziel's absorption into the reaver.

>>376965032
If you're talking about Moebius, regular death for him means just the Elder God bringing him back. He doesn't truly die until Raziel kills him because he devours his soul. Raziel is already beyond death, and the reason why time paradoxes can be created by having two Soul Reavers meet is precisely because the implication is that they're trying to devour themselves. As for Kain, he was killed by brigands and then resurrected as a vampire with the Heart of Darkness by Mortanius, who himself was a necromancer. So who are you talking about again?

>>376964384
Blood Omen 2 wasn't even supposed to be a LoK game. It was meant to be a Chakan The Forever man game. It'd probably benefit more from having stayed that way.

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>>376965506
I think he meant Vorador. I wonder if there's a pic related equivalent in the LoK universe trying to fix all this shit caused by Raziel and Kain's shenanigans.

>>376965679
Neither was Soul Reaver, but here we are

>>376965878
Soul Reaver wasn't a disaster though and Shifter still fit the theme as a concept.

>>376962206
Kain warns Raziel not to resurrect Janos at the end of SR2. Raziel is a dummy and does it anyway, which directly leads to BO2.

>>376967412

He couldn;t hear him, he was going unconcious.

>>376967412
The pillars would have collapsed whether or not Janos was resurrected. They only used Janos to power some mystery machine that was never used, which as far as we know could have been powered by anything else.

>>376963536
>he thinks the Blood Reaver is Raziel

>>376967503
He hears Kain just fine in Defiance.

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Is Soul Reaver worth playing in the year of our lord 2017 or is it so dated that I should just watch the cutscenes on Youtube instead?

>>376968008
Play the PC version on Steam, I play it with KB just fine, and it's a pretty good 3D Metroidvania with a fantastic story. Combat isn't all that great, but it's serviceable. Real focus is in the exploration, the story, dialogue and music. The original Blood Omen might be too outdated for some people, but I personally love it and replay it every now and then. Only "bad" thing about it is the combat, which is a very basic Zelda-like combat but slow, although you get certain items you can use in battle, but otherwise, you just slash the sword with one attack animation. The story's fucking fantastic though, so the only thing I can say is to just try it.

>>376968008
I only just played it myself, which is why I made the thread. It's aged just fine IMO, though playing with KB+M is a bit off. Also there's some parts with platforming that are needlessly annoying.

>>376968008
Depends on your tolerance for slow block pushing puzzles.

>>376968686
I found those cathartic after awhile. Except the parts where solving a piece would spawn an enemy.

>>376952364
why are the controls so shit?

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>>376963986
I didn't know it was possible to have taste this shit, and yet here we are.

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>>376968008
I wouldn't say yes for Blood Omen since some parts of it are extremely dated but Soul Reaver is still more than playable.

Blood Omnicide never ever