Is this game a masterpiece? Sure it has flaws and many people

>>376939906
With the unofficial patch it is 10/10 game for sure. Without it... there are a lot of flaws, but still a good game.

Console port when?

>>376939906
It isn't hated because it is irrelevant.
It is the epitome of eating a turd to get a bit of corn.

That is an acquired taste.

>>376939906
I have sinned, I used cheats on my first playthrough.

>>376939906
There's only one thing I hate about it.

It uses the source engine.

>>376939906
it really was a great game, but just like arcanum, the late game was pretty meh

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yes

even without the unofficial patches it's a masterpiece

>>376941567
She fornicates with kine no less!

No, it's pretty fucking far from being a masterpiece.
It's a flawed, unfinished game.

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>>376941668
tfw (therese's face when)

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vympzV240mM

who /ravnos/ here

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>>376939906
>10/10 does not equal zero flaws

Playing the game for the first time, just got to Hollywood, really enjoying myself so far.

How different is a Malkavian/Nosferatu run from the regular game? I'll probably play again at this rate and I've got my eye on those

>Bugs
>Even more bugs
>Early 2000 graphix
>Edgy vampires for twilight fans
1/10 shit game remove this thread you fucking shill

>>376939906
It's far from a masterpiece. The combat is ass and the game drops the ball pretty fucking hard from chinatown onwards.

With the unofficial plus patch yes
Vanilla is like an 7.5/10. Just because of the warrens section

>>376942487
Malk is more about in-jokes for people that have completed the game at least once, other than that nothing interesting.
Nosferatu makes it more of a stealth game. Has a unique apartment/safe house later in the game.

>>376942563
>shill for a dead studio

What did he mean by this?

>>376942487
Malks can give you very subtle spoilers with their whispers, and lolrandom dialogues can be entertaining for a while.

Nosferatu playthrough is still hard, you pretty can't be seen by other NPC's, lest you risk a Masquerade violation

>>376942487
Nosferatu involves using the sewers to get around the hubs so you avoid violating the masquerade.
Malkavians generally play the same but all their dialogue options are worded differently and some get unique responses. Also you will hear whispering voices that are actually cryptic spoilers for what's occurring in the game that can only really be appreciated once you've finished it once.

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>>376942563
The game predates twilight by a year and the vampire the masquerade tabletop rpg predates it by more than a decade

>>376943221
>>376943157

Hah!

>>376943157
but arent the sabbat basically antedeluvian/methusaleh pawns in the jyhad too?

>>376939906
>Is this game a masterpiece?
No. Still, one of the best games ever made. Everything on it just synergies so perfectly, shame about Activision and Valve fucking them.

>>376942228
Tzimisce is better.

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>>376943297

Technically speaking, every vampire is.

But the Sabbat would at least try to fight them.

Except for the Tal'mahe'Ra.

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>>376942228
>new WtA game is set in Chicago '93
>you're right in the middle of the War of Chicago
>you assault the Succubus Club with your Garoubros
>fuck shit up, leave none alive
>meanwhile Music from the Succubus Club is blasting in the background

>>376942563
>shill
jesus this board is beyond salvation

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>>376942357
>10/10 does not equal zero flaws
>implying anything can be flawless and/or perfect
10/10 just means that it, all things considered, comes as close to perfection as most things can hope to. It means the flaws that the game has can be ignored because of the strengths of the game massively outweighing them.

As such, I'd put VTMB way below 10/10. The game is far from fucking perfect because of the massive array of bugs and balance issues, even post-patch. It's still in my top 5 no doubt, but I can't really say the massive amount of great elements outweigh the massive array of negative elements. At the very most they simply complement each other and create an up-and-down mix of bug and snug that makes for a great time overall

>>376942712
>With the unofficial plus patch yes
>Vanilla is like an 7.5/10. Just because of the warrens section
Warrens is still -10/10 in the unofficial patch. The patch may be godly, but it can't fix some of the unholy elements of the original game.

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anyone who got lost in the warrens is a fucking idiot who tried to fight everything. the addition of the skip in the unofficial patch is pandering to dumb fucks who think you should have been able to talk your way through the entire game

>>376942760
Malk is best as your first play-though, though, because that way you don't really know what yor own dialogue implies at times, and then you get to discover what you meant during your second playthrough.

>>376945123
>complaining about balance in a non-competitive single player game
Why?

>>376945123
>"6/10, play it it's a fucking masterpiece" - you

>>376939906
>Btw 10/10 does not equal zero flaws
That is fucking retarded and it things like this/ people like you that make me use a thumbs up or down system when recommending games to people.

>>376939906
really shitty gameplay kills any potential this game ever had.

>>376946051
This, muh baluns kiddies can get fucked

>>376945841
I don't really see the appeal of Malk in general so I think it would be hard to really appreciate this game going through it for the first time playing as that clan.

>>376939906
>but nobody ever hates on VTMB.

I don't "hate" on it but I was pretty disappointed.

I think people love the game because they see the potential and they choose to believe. Personally, I could never get over the fact that it was fundamentally broken.

1st char was social, which turns out to be unworkable because the game is unfinished. Beardbros will gather around and tell you that you should research this stuff before you play the game - as if it is pardonable for a role-playing game to fail in this way. The system says make your own character, do whatever you like; whoops! you made the wrong thing and you only find this out 12 hours into the game.

Also, even if you do make a combat character there is no escaping the fact that the sewers and Tsimithingy levels are boring grinds.

>>376939906
>A masterpiece
>with flaws

That's not how it works.

>>376939906
I think you have a good definition there. Pretending any game can be flawless is delusional, so might as well use that 10 for something.

I'm not sure why people are bringing up the unofficial patch as an external factor considering the GOG version of the game comes pre-patched with UP. You literally buy and play as one package, no need to do anything. It should be judged as one.

Regarding the game, I'd say this is as close to perfection for an RPG as possible. Its combat might be clunky for the most part, but the rest of the package leaves me in awe, consistently. It's not about getting every aspect done right, as for example in Witcher 3, it's about playing to your strengths and nailing certain areas of the game. And as far as I'm concerned, the quality of some of the aspects of this game that generally appeals to me is unparalleled relative to other RPGs, so yeah, I'd give it a 10/10, possibly GOAT for me.

>>376939906
What's the best class?

>>376947649
no such thing as best clan, just different

>>376947473
>Pretending any game can be flawless is delusional
Tetris proves you wrong.

What's /v/'s thoughts on the new vampire tabletop shit that's been announced?

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>>376943364
>shame about Activision and Valve fucking them.
The game was pitched to Valve but they didn't care, then someone at Valve directed them to his friend at Activision where the game got picked up. So while Activision is responsible for pretty much everything that went wrong they're also responsible for it even existing.

>>376946051
>>376946479
>complaining about balance in a non-competitive single player game
It's the fact that some things in the game are so shit they aren't worth using while some shit is so good it makes everything besides it not worth using.
I always want to try out a "fun" build in VTMB but then I realize why the fuck would I play with a "fun" build if the fun build is going to be so underpowered that the game becomes either tedious and entirely unenjoyable. I can kinda understand the people who want to just talk their way through the whole game because the combat is easily broken by a few things (AUG, Celerity, higher levels of Obfuscate, Thaumaturgy in general, Unique Katana, etc)

>inb4 MUH ROLEPLAY
When the roleplaying in a fucking ROLE PLAYING GAME is as shit as it is in VTMB that argument doesn't really hold water. The game is clearly made for rollplay and not roleplay, to take a page from /tg/'s shitposting repository. You can't expect the DM to plan encounters around your roleplay character because the DM is a fucking computor. It's going to be just as tough on you as it's going to be on fucking Pun Pun: Vampire Edition.

>>376946752
>1st char was social, which turns out to be unworkable because the game is unfinished.
The game straight up tells you in the tutorial you can't talk your way out of everything, and thus, tou were explicitly told to put to points into combat skills from the very start. Don't blame the game for your inability to read.

>>376946752
>Also, even if you do make a combat character there is no escaping the fact that the sewers and Tsimithingy levels are boring grinds.
That is a fair point however. The actual combat levels in VMTB are pretty shit.

>>376948074
What new shit? Give me a resume.

>>376948074
Don't know, but I'm waiting on this:
dogma-universe.com/en/

>>376947793
There's 2 ways to approach this:

1) We equate the definition of "flaw" with "something we don't like", in which case we can define Tetris as a flawed game if one person does not like it. As such the statement that everything can be considered flawed in some way is true.

2) We can consider "flaw" to be a fault in the design of a game RELATIVE to the goal set by the developers and the objective of the game. As such, there are indeed (very simple) games that can be flawless (like Tetris), in which case I would amend my statement to "No ARPG could realistically be flawless", since the complexity required to build an RPG is infinitely higher than Tetris, therefore the probability of a "flaw" or fault being committed is ~1.

>>376939906
>Btw 10/10 does not equal zero flaws

only in today's view of game ratings where 7 is "just ok" or "meh". in any objective setting where logic and coherence are used, 10/10 means a perfect score, which implies no flaws to speak of. realistically speaking there are no 10/10 games, and there probably never will be, now get your faggot ass outta here with your fanboy shit.

Is there any rating system that can beat "Buy, wait for a Sale, or don't"?

>>376948374

https://pastebin.com/pvAtApt1

Nothing concrete released just yet although V5 open beta will be out.... sometime soon. They got rid of the blood pool mechanic as well, replacing it with hunger - seems to be something where, at the end of a scene, you tally up the amount of times you used blood. You then roll that many dice, and the amount of successes add to your hunger. If you get, let's say, 2 hunger, every dice pool from then on has 2 designated hunger dice, and if they come up 1 you are forced to act in some manner dictated by the vampiric condition - you can resist that by spending "composure," but your composure pool is needed to resist frenzying. Hunger dice go away with feeding, but are never reduced to 0.

>>376947473
>I'm not sure why people are bringing up the unofficial patch as an external factor considering the GOG version of the game comes pre-patched with UP. You literally buy and play as one package, no need to do anything. It should be judged as one.

I don't know which patch the VTM community agree upon these days, but I played it with a recommended patch and found the "restored content" to be more like "fanwank content". Puts in a bunch of new vampire races to keep the pen-and-paper beards happy, without addressing the fact that you rarely if ever get the chance to make use of this role-play potential.

The back half of the game is so barren and devoid of content that it doesn't matter if you're a rare special vampire or a whatever. There is hardly anyone to talk to. The game doesn't give a fuck what you are at this point.

>>376949132
>I don't know which patch the VTM community agree upon these days
There's people who get pissy over Wesp's patch because people say the basic patch is just bug fixes but it actually changes things.

>>376947473
>I think you have a good definition there. Pretending any game can be flawless is delusional, so might as well use that 10 for something.
It's not about pretending games can be flawless, it's about maintaining standards. not game attaining 10/10 is actually a good thing, because it pushes people to improve, to get closer to perfection and with time maybe even attain it. if you just go and start giving shit a perfect score just because "games can't be perfect", "gotta do something with that 10" and "nobody hates it", then it all goes to shit and there's no incentive whatsoever to improve, the score becomes meaningless. also, by that kind of definition, any game with a niche enough fanbase is 10/10 perfect because no one hates it.

>>376949130
>Art will involve much photography
That sounds awful, just awful. Other stuff seems more or less okay depending on how it's done.
>They got rid of the blood pool mechanic as well
Wasn't that tied to generations? Are they getting rid of it?

>>376949541

It's not clear how they'll handle generation - could be that they accrue hunger dice more slowly, or can simply use more powers of the blood per turn, or have much larger composure pools or something. The system's not out yet, really, and I think it's more "alpha" than it is "beta." So far though I like what I see, the huge lore changes included.

>>376949132
>Puts in a bunch of new vampire races to keep the pen-and-paper beards happy
The unofficial patch doesn't put in new races. If you're referring to the devs, every "race" aka clan has unique interactions in the game, some more than others, so it's not like they didn't cater to the clan variety. They also have different disciplines which radically alter how you approach combat/dialogue etc. The discipline set remains relevant throughout the game, so clan uniqueness is accounted for all throughout.

You're right about the dialogue choices and unique interactions being reduced over time, but the game has already delivered enough for me to put it over other RPGs of its kind, which is how everyone defines "preference" of a game over another and how they make top 10 lists.

Also, the Unofficial patch gives you the option of just using bug fixes with minimal/negligible changes, so idk why you talk about the restored content at all. All of this is irrelevant however regarding my argument that the game WITH the UP is sold as one product by the market.

>>376949267
I have no problem with your argument about developers needing to constantly improve. As long as we assume that no game can be 10/10, I guess I can live with that definition, it's just a bit redundant to never use some parts of that scale. But theoretically, I agree with you.

>any game with a niche enough fanbase is 10/10 perfect because no one hates it.
True, and this is the case I assume with some games. Nothing wrong with saying a game is 10/10 within a niche group that love it. And if it holds that score with larger audience being introduced, good for it. This is the case with VTMB, it's been exposed and played on /v/ for quite some time now, if people continue to love it and giving it high scores, what's wrong with that? This point has nothing to do with my previous argument about your 10/10 definition btw.

>>376949267
>It's not about pretending games can be flawless, it's about maintaining standards. not game attaining 10/10 is actually a good thing, because it pushes people to improve, to get closer to perfection and with time maybe even attain it. if you just go and start giving shit a perfect score just because "games can't be perfect", "gotta do something with that 10" and "nobody hates it", then it all goes to shit and there's no incentive whatsoever to improve, the score becomes meaningless. also, by that kind of definition, any game with a niche enough fanbase is 10/10 perfect because no one hates it.


"So you see, it's actually a good thing that the game is bad!"

ffs, the fucking mental gymnastics here.

Truth is that VTM is more of a concept than an actual game. And it does a good job of pitching the concept, in its early stages. However, it all falls apart.

If there's a patch that truly fixes this, I would like to see it. No bullshit - I will try it. I am pretty sure there is no such patch though.

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>>376945123
>10/10 does not mean zero flaws

by definition, "perfection" means "zero flaws"

vtmb is 9/10. it would be 10/10 but technical issues are part of the experience of any game and make the game worse. however, the game is so good that the technical flaws only knock 1 off the score

if it had zero flaws including no bugs then it would be 10/10

>>376950598
>if it had zero flaws including no bugs then it would be 10/10

Technical issues aren't even the problem. It's the lack of content. It's the fact that it dangles a potential 10/10 game idea in front of you, then descends into unfinished emptiness.

Leaves you thinking, "Wow, I would have liked to play that game."

>>376951068
>lack of content
How fucking long do you expect the game to be? 3/4 of the game have consistently high quality, and it's already a huge game, what more do you expect? What game do you think did it better?

>>376939906
Gameplay, story, soundtrack. It's one of the only games that does the holy trifecta right. If it gets really really hard you need to git gud or if you have no time just use the console and enjoy the story.

>>376951947
And by trifecta I mean trinity.

>>376939906
I'm thinking about getting this game but heard there's some kind of glitch that makes it stop at a certain part of the game.
But first post talks of a patch. Is this game really worth getting or just something /v/ loves to bring up once every week?

Combat: 4/10
Gameplay: 6.5/10

Graphics/animation: 7/10 (really hit and miss)
Art Direction: 8/10

Writing: 10/10
Music: 10/10
VA: 9/10

Atmosphere: 10/10

Aggregate score: ??

>>376952326
aggregate score depends on what aspect you value most. Basically put different coefficients next to each score depending on how much you prefer good atmosphere over combat in a game and calculate.

>>376951387
>How fucking long do you expect the game to be?

I'm not taking issue with the actual length. My criticism is more about the fact that the RPG elements gradually fade away until they are all but gone.

Also, you are really stretching it, to claim 3/4 consistently high quality. The best part of the game is the Santa Monica, and nothing ever matches that. All the interesting things happen there. Getting your ghoul, etc. It's all downhill from there.

>>376952528
>depends on what aspect you value most.

Yes exactly

>>376951387
Not that anon, but it's pretty clear the last half of the game was pretty rushed. There's a ton of cutting room floor content that's slowly being added back into the game, and there are definitely more things they could have done for each clan to differentiate them. I'm not the kind of guy who measures a game's worth in concrete hours of playtime, but it's definitely apparent when a game front-loads a ton of diverse content and the later parts lack the same attention to detail.

>>376952298
Pirate it. The company that made it is dead and the guys who killed it are the ones making a profit out of it.

>>376952986
The ones to kill it are the ones that make profit off of it? Sounds so damn backwards
Just checking with you but is this the full game patched and all?
http://pcgames-download.net/2014/06/vampire-the-masquerade-bloodlines-gog/

>>376952594
The RPG elements definitely fade but are not gone. Even the Giovanni mansion at the end of the game has multiple ways to beat, more so than some Chinatown quests (but not all, the Ox charm quest for example stands out for its interesting possible resolutions even though it appears to be very simplistic. Even the hengeyokai quest can be solved by killing the guy in the bar without him ever transforming if you pay attention to the dialogue clues). The part of the game where it REALLY goes bad is the post-Giovanni levels, which are pure combat with no choice for anything. The Ming temple in particular is the worst part of the game.

As for the first 3 hubs, Downtown gives you the ability to interact with your ghoul, which you can't do in Santa Monica. Just one example of why later hubs can be considered better than SM. Personally, Hollywood is my favourite, because you get to complete quests by visiting characters from other hubs which adds another possible dimension to some quests (Gargoyle quest, Hatter quest). Downtown and santa monica are close as well, and these 3 hubs I consider to be very close in quality in general, which is why I said it keeps a consistent high quality for 3/4. This is just how I see it though, and I try to support it with arguments for each hub, if you don't agree, I can't change your mind, it is subjective after all.

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>Btw 10/10 does not equal zero flaws

>>376953175
Any version would need to be updated to the newest patch anyway.

>>376953303
>Downtown and santa monica are close as well, and these 3 hubs I consider to be very close in quality in general, which is why I said it keeps a consistent high quality for 3/4. This is just how I see it though, and I try to support it with arguments for each hub, if you don't agree, I can't change your mind, it is subjective after all.

It has been about six years since I last played the game, so maybe I should play it again and reevaluate if possible.

But my enduring memory is of serious disappointment with the later stages - which obviously shapes my current opinion of the game. However, you reminded me of the Giovanni mansion, which I did enjoy. So maybe I'm being too harsh on the later stages, I dunno.

I will probably have to play it again before I wade into another VTM thread.

>>376954151
It's cool man. I find that many of the quests might have ways of being resolved that need multiple playthroughs to discover and appreciate, which simply doesn't appeal to a lot of players that don't want to replay the same shit. One of the reasons I defend this game so fervently is because I have come to appreciate the detail put into some quests where even after so many playthroughs I still find new things about it. But obviously I can't expect people to treat the game the same, one of the reasons I played it so much is because I loved it from the get go.

That said, I'd like to point out that you are right about the late game losing some of the roleplaying options. In santa monica, you can resolve the quests by using many "social" options, such as seduction and intimidation, options that disappear in the later hubs. The first hub is simply more approachable and showcases the roleplaying variety much more than other hubs. It has many clan-unique interactions, it has Bertram Tung who talks about your clan specifically, nearly all of the quests can be completed using different skills and there are many possible resolutions for one quest. This stuff is reduced over time, but still there in some quests, just not as apparent or pronounced I think.

>>376950293
i never said it's bad though, only that it's not perfect whether people hate it or not, and acknowledging that is a good thing.

i don't know if you think i have something against the game itself or the fanbase, but i don't i'm just pointing out OP's logic for claiming it's a perfect game is flawed. and whther or not it's more of a concept than a game doesn't change the fact it's being rated as a game, not a concept.

the latter half of the game suffered from troika being punished by activision for going over budget despite them telling activision they needed more time since a 16-person team was working on 2 IPs at once. half-life 2 requiring that it release before anything else on the source engine gave them a bit more time to patch (which they weren't paid for) but then activision fucked them again by forcing bloodlines to release the same day as HL2.

the unofficial patch cannot add in content that was never developed. the library portion in the plus patch at least had assets leftover that wesp5 filled in the holes for so it wasn't completely new stuff he created for the game.

what would have been nice is if the story explained why you were forced into combat a bit more. the blood hunt is a step in the right direction, but that won't stop babby's from complaining that their toreador can't do shit

>>376955207
I think the reason people complain about the later sections having only combat is because the game spoiled them with all these different options to complete quests before. Other than that, I think it makes perfect sense why you use combat only when fighting the braindead sabbat, the domianted soldiers in venture tower, or the foreign and immediately hostile kuei jin. It's just that the game takes a sharp turn for combat rather than easing you into it, which I think would be preferable.

Are you meant to struggle to hear/understand the voices as a Malk? I can rarely make out what they're saying.
Also, do they become less frequent as you go through the game? I'm about to go to Hollywood, and I don't think I've heard them for a while now.

>>376956000
I was never able to make out what they said, but apparently some people can. Based on what they say (which I've read online), they could have a pretty nice roleplaying impact and give useful clues, but I'll never experience it.

>>376955561
>Other than that, I think it makes perfect sense why you use combat only when fighting the braindead sabbat, the domianted soldiers in venture tower, or the foreign and immediately hostile kuei jin. It's just that the game takes a sharp turn for combat rather than easing you into it, which I think would be preferable.

Well it would be nice to have both. My char was a Ventrue female (don’t ask me why, it seemed like a good idea at the time) and to be honest I didn’t get many advantages to this class, after Santa Monica. It would be nice if after all the combat I could use my Ventrue affiliation to talk my way through Venture Tower.

I mean it wasn't acknowledged at all.

>>376956000
>Are you meant to struggle to hear/understand the voices as a Malk?
yes. drives you mad, doesn't it?

>>376956803
Well, clans don't define everything in the politics of WoD. Ventrue that betray the Camarilla (aka Ventrue antitribu) like you've been accused to have done are hunted down, there's no way you could talk your way through. And that's not even factoring the fact that some soldiers are shown to be dominated.

>>376939906

It's my favorite game and its not a masterpiece.
Without patches it isnt even playable. Probably would have been close to masterpiece if it wasnt rushed

>>376952326
Honestly I'd rate the melee combat higher than that. Pretty satisfying especially if you're brujah

>>376957445
>Without patches it isnt even playable.
this is false and everyone who says this has no idea what they're talking about

>>376957061
I don't expect the prince and his soldiers to suck my dick just because I'm Ventrue. But I think there should have been, I dunno, like one sympathetic Ventrue in the building who shows you a secret passageway. Or something like that.

>>376939906
For role playing and questing and character mechanics it's pretty unparalleled in my experience

can vamps fuck?

There is one complaint I don't get
>combat sucks!
so does the combat in vast majority of RPGs including Morrowind and Gothic /v/ dickrides how is mashing M1 in VTMB worse than mashing M1 in Morrowind?

>>376959589
yeah they can, they spend a blood point and you ejaculate the blood, it's not as good as feeding though so only vampire degenerates like the toreador would do such things

>>376959967
eww

>>376959589
They can and if they still retain most of their humanity they'll probably enjoy it, but not as much as feeding.

Kindred with low humanity or whose human lives are distant memories from ages past wouldn't bother with it, though.

>>376940554

It's wierd it never got one, considering its interface would've been really easy to use with a controller. I could've seen an xbox original port happen if Troika didn't go under.

>>376960223
the devs went out of business, no one was around to port it

>>376960484
that's why I said "if Troika didn't go under"

Love the game but hate the clans mostly because of my personal bias the only dedicated fighter clans Gangrel and Brujah are obnoxious one is a bunch of furries the others are anarchists which I despise the only gun oriented clan Toreadors are faggots which leaves me with either boring ''I'm so much above everyone else altough I can't really precise why'' Ventrue or ''we aren't even vampires lmao'' Tremere when I wanna go guns blazing.

For ninja style the clans are shit theme wise as well lelsorandumb Malks and Nosferatu who are supposedly hideous yet are way easier for the eyes than Tzimisce or even one hooker model. Don't get me started on the edgelord Sabbat clans. Every clan has some shit gimmick or is outright boring the only vanilla clan are Old Tzimisce who aren't present in the game

>>376960553
well its not weird then, is it?

>>376960721

Well I'm surprised whoever bought the rights after never tried to do something with it.

>>376960175
Why not feed while you fuck?

>>376960158
Who's jackhammering her?

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>>376960158
You took one for the team, good man.

>>376960765
paradox bought it last year, they are remaking their entire library and stuff. not enough time for a port

The lack of good VTMB porn despite the fact that the game has four waifus disgusts me.

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>>376961000
Four?

>>376960810
There's nothing stopping them other than feeding being much more rewarding and pleasurable. The Beast is stronger than even the most deviant human sexual compulsion.

>>376960886
me

Damsel Best girl!!

>muh guns are useless
>except every gun aside from the basic revolver shits on vampires

also melee combat is embarassing when I think about supernatural creatures duking it out the last thing I have in mind is some kung fu shit I could understand using claws or something but reverse roundhouse kicks and fists? So anticlimatic.

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>>376960158
>Isolated.jpg
my reaction when