can you guys verify my chart? Pretty accurate right?

>>376788283
compfags

>>376788283
you made this same gay thread earlier, no one cares

>>376788283
Soldier is such a braindead fucking class and no one will ever admit it.

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Man I miss playing as scout against shitters, people getting tilted and switching to pyro.
Shame OW doesn't have a similar character, genji and tracer just don't scratch the same itch

I don't see the reason to distinguish between skill ceiling and usefulness. A huge pro to TF2 is that the usefulness of your character becomes better as you become better at playing that character.

>>376789258
yeah but I updated it this time the other one was a prototype this one is the definitive.

>>376789312
*rocket jumps behind you and direct hits*

>>376789537
picking something like spy or pyro over soldier or medic is a detriment unless you are in a pub 16v16 unbalanced custom map

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>soldier
>anywhere near demo or scout
Somehow even more braindead than pyro or heavy as all you do is shoot giant aoe 100 damage attacks at peoples feet. Whilst having 200 health and the best mobility in the game. Spy should replace him. Seriously try playing spy against actual good players who consistently spy check it's fucking hard.

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>>376789992
>demo
>spam stickies and pipes
>do a sticky jump here and there (fucking ez to pull off

>scout
>dies in pretty much one hit only good for capping and scattergun is the most op close range weapon in the game

meanwhile soldier is doing the most damage, rocket jumping across the map, collecting rage and direct hitting everybody

Id say its pretty good. Scouts one of my favourite classes.

>>376790346
Pills are much harder to hit than rockets by far. Scout also requires constant movement whilst also consistently hitting your targets on point to do anything useful. Soldiers does scouts job in 2 rockets while being tankier, more mobile, and having a shit ton of clutch weapons - (black box, liberty launcher, conch)

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>>376788283
Not really.
To begin with, soldier is "one size fits all" kind of class. Easy to learn, jack of all trades.
Semi-good sniper is credit to team, especial one equipped with situational awareness.
Spy, in hands of competent player, is force to be reckoned with. But its effectiveness heavily relied on it's own teammates actions (i.e. Spy is a waste of slot without proper teamwork).
Oh, and yes. Demoman takes skills, trust me. MUH SPAM is just a fucking meme. Direct piping and smart traps are demoman's bread and butter.

>Why do you only play those 4 classes?
>Because that's what works best in 6v6 5cp

>But why do you only ever play 6v6 5cp?
>Because that's where classes I play work best

>>376791184
>my class works best when I have lots of other player to rely on why are you calling me a scrub

>>376790985
a skilled af soldier will be way better than a noob soldier but a noob pyro will be just as good as a "pro" one I thought my graph was pretty clear

and yes spy sucks ass a demo can do his job for half the effort

>>376791184
Why there is no class limit in 6v6?

2 soldiers are too strong in the meta.

>>376789537
no matter how hard you try the 4 guys at the top right corner can do it better. Tf2 is horribly balanced but its not a big deal because its fun. Competitive mode is dumbest shit though

>>376788283
reminder that only shitters main engineer

>>376789363

It's because Tracer and Genji lack those meaty shots, if one of 'em had Reapers shotguns we'd get our fix. Tracer has dinky peashooters and Genji throws shuriken.

>>376790985
I always get a good chuckle whenever some pubstar soldier bawls his eyes out when I'm ''sticky spamming''.

>>376788283
t. killed by airblasted rockets

>>376790985

Spy is only as good as the enemy is stupid.

>pyro is braindead
VALVE PLS
BRING BACK THE GOOD OLD DAYS

Yeah the image is accurate, Medic is the best class in the game

>>376788283
A good heavy can have a tangible effect on the game, pyro not so much but it's still silly to say that there's no difference between someone who's just downloaded the game and an experienced player.

Heavy is an interesting character

by himself he is pretty weak and defenseless, but once you get two heavies in a room they become completely unstoppable.

>>376788283
>Pyro
>DPS character useful for crowd control and taking out hordes of enemies with your team
>somehow less useful than a piece of shit sniper who wants to play the game like it's cawadooty and useless on almost all game modes except maybe payload
Ebin meme

>>376788283
Friendly reminder that Soldier is objectively the strongest AND easiest non-Medic class and will never be meaningfully nerfed because of dev favoritism.

>>376791184
>>376791787
6v6 as the competitive mode for TF2 always struck me as silly. I can't think of any other team game where the competitive mode is half the default player count. The 9v9 of highlander seems like a better representation of the game's design and balance but then that has the problem of rigid class usage.

>>376792447
The collective butthurt of youtube soldiers will probably create a new sun if valve ever nerfs the him.

>>376792132
>Spy is only as good as the enemy is distracted
FFTGJ

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>>376792447
Are you trying to say a class with the second highest health, the best mobility, one of the highest damage primaries, no damage drop off, consistent splash damage, and the best secondary in the game is an anyway unbalanced? Nonsense.
Fuck that stupid Aussie. Class has no meaningful weakness and everyone knows it

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Here's template if you guys want to make your own charts.

>>376792979
>no damage drop off, consistent splash damage
Ha-ha-ha-ha! Oh wow!

I don't think I've ever been on a team that's won without a medic. The ability to keep up the momentum is just that useful. I'd extend the image over to the right by one and a half times and slide the medic way over that way.

>>376793145
Just looked it up, I always thought rockets had no fall-off. Maybe I was thinking of crit rockets instead. Random crits are shit and should be off no matter what anyways.

>>376792389
The sniper can get important picks if he's good and the map design supports it, pyro is useless as anything besides a 4th engineer building against a team with any hint of skill.

How do you fix Pyro?

His problem at the moment is that he has no defined role.

Is he supposed to be a roaming ganker?
Is he supposed to be Engineer's Buttbuddy?
Is he supposed to be area denial?

Who the fuck knows?

>>376788283
I just play spy now with the ambassator and head shot all of the noobs and they get super pissed. I only play on tbe community servers just to piss people off

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>>376788283
Objective competitive (league play, not the shitty queue system) skill index

>>376794276
That is pretty accurate actually.

>there are still people who think the two splash damage spammers take skill and the close-range flamethrower character is "ez"

I seriously never understood this.

Also I would fuck on all you with pyro.

>>376794276
i dont care what anyone says my degreaser axtinguisher and reserve shooter pyro is the most fun you can have in that game

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>>376794276

fucking medic shills are always trying to make themselves seem useful and they are always the worst and most useless shits on the team

>>376794523
Pyro is objectively the weakest class when you consider higher level play/players.

Putting out high consistsent damage with demo can be quite tough (again, against higher level players).

You would not.

Why did valve design soldier to be the best fucking class ever?
>durable
>mobile
>long range+short range kill potential
>best lines

>>376792480
Highlander is a logistic nighmare. You think comp is dead now? Try making it about gathering 18 people on a similar skill level, each with a specific class to main.

>>376792447
Scout is stronger than soldier.

>>376794642

Then that would make him objectively the most difficult.

Yet he is constantly berated as being "easy" and W+M1

Weird how none of you have any clue what youre talking about.

And I agree, Demoman is easily the easiest class in the game. His damage output is bonkers.

Old pyro main here
should I come back?

>>376794762
In 1v1 sure, but pales in teamfights.

>>376794803
No, we don't want you

>>376794736
>best lines

That's not Scout or That one Engineer webm

>>376794779
You're implying that player skill can somehow overcome his weakness. He is both easy to play, and not effective.

>>376794824
Soldier is better at engaging a fight quickly, scout is better during the fight and during extended engagements

>>376794779
Do you know what pyros do in the very little they see play at a higher level?

They spam M2 until they die, and hope they bought enough time for their team's last hold. That's all they can do. Outside of that, they're a shittier, slower scout.

>>376794531
fun isnt even on the chart shitter

>>376795012
Op here was going to make a third dimension labelled fun but I'm not good at photoshop

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>>376794905

>>376794779
People don't place pyro at high skill level because you can seriously play this game for hundreds if not thousands of hours and literally never encounter a skilled pyro. You need to try way harder to even be remotely effective on that class if you playing against anyone semi competent. For every pyro effectively using degreaser there are thousands just using back burner/phlog/whatever.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAKp7Efyu_w

>>376795093
>Style over substance montage of relatively unimpressive kills
Why

>>376788283
That is one of the many reasons I stopped playing TF2.
I used to find either a team of scrubs composed by three snipers and two spies or a boring meta team with only soldiers and scouts.
It gets boring really fast.

>>376788283

>not playing disruptive high death-rate pyro and helping your team
>2017

You are the scrubs.

Pyro is easy to pick up and play, at least wm1, but downplaying the importance of a skilled Pyro player is just poor taste.

>>376795193
>downplaying the importance of a skilled Pyro player is just poor taste
you aren't important in any way. you're a shittier scout at close range, worse than everyone at longer ranges, and provide less support than even a heavy would in most situations

>>376794276
>soldier, the strongest class in the game being behind sniper and heavy in usefulness
>medic taking skill
>scout not requiring the most skill
>engi less useful than spy
>spy not being the most useless piece of shit in the fucking game, pyro can spam airblast at least

>>376795279
Scout is definitely great high burst single-target DPS with excellent mobility, but you're overexaggerating his TTK and underestimating Pyro's wide AoE damage when we're talking about holding down a point against more than one enemy.

>>376795141

That's the joke.

>>376795130
Is that video supposed to be the pinnacle of Pyro gameplay?

>>376795438
Heavy and sniper are arguable. They're very very useful, but very niche.

Medic could definitely go down based on how you want to "average" shit out. A bad medic will hurt your team way more than a bad soldier.

Scout is objectively easier than sniper, but takes the #2 spot.

Engie is less useful. Watch (better yet, learn to play) at a higher level and see which gets more average playtime. Spy is commonly used as an attempt at a pick or backcap.

Pyro should be higher because of the Flare Gun.

>>376795694
Engi really suffers on 5cp, but on literally every other map his teleporter is a gamechanger.

>>376795481
if you want aoe damage play soldier or demo, pyros is trash lol

>>376795067
git gud?

>>376795814
>Objective competitive (league play, not the shitty queue system) skill index
CP and KoTH.
Tele doesn't mean much on KoTH either.

>>376795694
>Scout is objectively easier than sniper, but takes the #2 spot.

Explain to me how. Scout has to have movement skill in addition to aim at the fundamental level.

>>376788283
Highlander is the best gamemode, everything else is for weenies and tryhard dorks

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>>376796172
scout movement isn't hard lmao
sniper has to be way more accurate (in terms of weapon spread) as well as often requiring headshots to even be effective

>>376795694

I've seen pro scouts able to proficiently play sniper at high level but never vice versa.

pyro is maximum fun for pubstomping which is what you do in team fortress

>>376796319
Shit isn't 100% 1:1, i'm not saying its exactly the same skills displayed, but someone who plays at a top level on sniper can easily play at a top level on scout

where are these "high level snipers who can't play scout well" you see anyway? pubbers? almost every notable sniper is also great at scout

>>376796275
>scout movement isn't hard lmao

Harder than the non-existence need of that particular skill in the sniper's skillset. Being able to maneuver into effective meatshot range for instagibs and operate within mid-range is harder than clicking heads because of the fact that it does include a greater degree of movement---while moving at higher speeds and not to mention jumping.

>>376796275
>move mouse and m1
>kill one guy at a time
What does sniper do kill people? kill death ratio barely matters. You would contribute way more to the team by picking a medic instead of wasting a slot on an anti personal class that is less effective than demoman, soldier or scout

It's really only useful for pub trolling on broken custom maps wit giant wide open areas.

>>376795694
>Engie is less useful.
How do you measure the usefulness of a character?
For defending last, you always want to have an engineer. Whether the enemy team's push is successful of not, the sentry will 100% always be useful by being a small distraction and forcing the demo or soldiers to focus on it for three seconds.
Spy is a pick class that relies on the enemy team not paying attention, and we're talking about 'objective competitive (league play, not the shitty queue system) skill index' here, so you can assume the enemy team will be watching their backs 95% of the time.
Seems to me like ,unless you get an _extremely_ lucky pick like Se7en vs FROYO at Rewind, Engineer is more useful than Spy.

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>>376788283
move scout to top right

>>376794276
>comparing generalists and specialists in the same image
holy fuck whoever made this image is an absolute fucking retard

>>376796575
didn't say sniper movement is as easy as scout movement, I said scout movement isn't hard. It doesn't require much skill to get good at, and isn't anywhere near as important as aim.

Overall. The class as a whole. Encompassing all its requirements of aim, movement, positioning, timing, whatever. Sniper will be harder than scout.

>>376796586
1 medic 1 demo per team, otherwise all you'd see is medics and demos

>>376788283
overwatch top right

>>376788283
>>376794276
>>376795694

Fuck what everyone says, mobile mini sentry engi with good teleporter and dispenser locations is so much fun. That pistol is underrated, and if you can get people to focus on you while your mini sentry flanks them because you put it in an unorthodox spot, you're a killing machine. Add a little frontier justice crits to kill medics and you are super useful. Maybe not so much in shitty 6v6 or highlander comp, but still a ton of fun.

>>376796640
engie you'll only ever really want when you wipe a push hard and expect them to push you quickly into your last. outside of that situation you're a worse heavy. between engie and heavy, if you were going to "always" want one, you'd pick the heavy.

engie is definitely less situational of a pick than pyro for last defenses though

spy is very good at getting in for back caps even when teams clear every exit, can catch people off guard (even if limited), and can harass with amby. It's got more general use than engie, and sees more play

>>376796882
you would need to make a zoomed in chart with pyro in top right to fit in overwatch toons

>>376792059
Genji used to scratch it with his old burst combo.

>>376796937
You're welcome to do whatever you like in a pub environment against shitty players. I'm glad you can enjoy it, too.

That doesn't make it good.

>>376796981
overwatch

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Here's the actual chart. My uncle's dad works at Steam.

>compfags think the game revolves around them despite being less that 1% of the playerbase
Will they ever learn?

>>376797209
>compfags

What did he mean by this?

>>376796723
>Overall. The class as a whole. Encompassing all its requirements of aim, movement, positioning, timing, whatever. Sniper will be harder than scout.

Yes and considering those aspects scout is still harder than sniper. Landing effective meatshots to take down classes in 2-3 hits with the increased risk of Scout's smaller effective range compared to the Sniper is as skillful as landing headshots on consecutive priority targets. Also movement skill is incredibly important to a scout's aim since it absolutely affects optimal cross-hair positioning so don't know what you're talking about there saying it's not hard or skillful. Even if you were to say sniper does require a higher degree of aim than scout, that difference is made up in spades in the extra movement skill that you need which would diminish whatever extra aiming skill sniper needs. Not to mention the other areas scout has a higher skill ceiling in due to his other weapons performing a greater variety of functions than Sniper's.

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>tfw enjoy playing medic
>tfw genuinely enjoy helping others win and keep them topped up
>tfw some fags pissy if I'm not nestled in their asshole the entire game

>the increased risk of Scout's smaller effective range
Unless you're trying to 1v1 push a buffed soldier without having a buff yourself, this isn't a risk, this is your optimal playstyle. And if you want to escape, people can't really chase you. It's much easier for a scout/soldier to get up on a sniper and kill him than it is for a scout/soldier trying to straight up fight another.

ps, if you're aiming with your movement keys, you're playing scout wrong

>>376788283
Sniper should honestly be at the top. Theoretically, a Sniper with accuracy as close to aimbot levels as humanly possible would have no trouble demolishing any team single-handedly. That's the power of headshots.

>>376797608
fuck
>>376797390
>>376797390

>>376797619
I was thinking of putting him higher for that headshot game but ultimately on balanced maps he's not that great. and moving cursor over someones head and pressing m1 isn't that hard.

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>play a game of pyro on snowycoast
>keep spies off of my engineer and clear off sappers
>turn heavy/med pairs into mush by flanking with the detonator
>keep the shitter phlog pyros in the spawn room for trying to activate their shit
>everyone on the other team is pissing their pants because im not using the degreaser
what makes people completely fine with being backstabbed after deadringing 6 times over, but the concept of a pyro det jumping over your head and backburner critting you is the epitome of "no skill"

the sooner we lynch all spy mains, the better

>>376797608
>if you're aiming with your movement keys, you're playing scout wrong

Didn't say that. Again, movement skill ties into aiming and positioning than Sniper where it's nonexistent with Sniper, not even including simple dodging and things like that. Not to mention running the objectives, learning when to run/capture objectives, roam, frag, etc. Scout just has more versatility in general which lends to him performing greater variety of functions and the necessary greater amounts of skill to do all those things which dwarfs the sniper's aptitude convincingly.

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>takes skill
Team Fortress 2 is a casual game

>>376798043
whats an example of a non-casual game

>>376798043
You are correct as long as you also agree that Overwatch is an even more casual game

>>376798031
>Scout just has more versatility in general which lends to him performing greater variety of functions
Yes
>greater amounts of skill to do all those things
No

Scout has more skills(#), doesn't require more skill

>>376797789
Sniper definitely isn't more useful in general. I just think his skill ceiling is equal or maybe even greater than Soldier's. The best Sniper should be able to kill every class as soon as the bolt cycles and he has enough charge, at nearly any range including point-blank. The fact that he's almost always the aimbotter's class of choice should illustrate my point.

>>376798120
This what I always think of when I hear someone refer to any game as "casual."

Like, if you ever think of a game that is NOT casual, you're taking video games far too seriously.

>>376798120
quake 3.

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>>376788283
yep

>>376798135
>Scout has more skills(#)

And requires more overall skill partly due to that fact.

>>376798204
explain

>>376798283
You're welcome to your opinion. It's objectively wrong, but you're welcome to it.

>>376788283
Pyro has one of the highest skill ceilings you fucking pleb

>>376798282
this video is as old as I am

>>376798327

Back at ya. No hair off my back, but at least we had this discussion so others could see.

>>376797512
>tfw really good at tf2
>tfw love playing medic I get some strange autistic really happy joy from watching their health numbers going up from red to overheal.
>I can't play medic because no one in pubs is worth healing at all
>I just have to go demo or soldier otherwise we lose cause our pub teams a shitter

feels bad man

>>376798358
a pro pyro is indistinguishable from one that started yesterday

>>376798376
me 2 thanks

>>376793792
He's supposed to be able to break up team cohesion and prevent unstoppable team huddles. If everyone gets lit the fuck up they all disperse trying to find ways to douse themselves. At least in theory that's whats supposed to happen but afterburn damage is so laughable that most people ignore it

>>376798441
>I've never played pyro

>>376798440
http://pug.champ.gg/

you still get some shitters but way fewer, might be the shitter yourself, you may not get picked if you're new though

>>376798554
>w+m1 and unlock flare gun
>just as useful as 2000+ hour pyro main
honestly just switch to soldier

>>376798327
>>376798424
as an outsider looking in, heres my opinion.
scout takes more skill to play, but a sniper of equal skill to a scout is more effective. this means that a scout that has maximized his gameplay potential, learned all the ins and outs of the game, and can apply those tactics in various situations can be considered more skillful than a sniper who has done the same, but the sniper will always carry harder than the scout. you could argue that the sniper has more effectiveness per amount of skill, but saying that the distanced point-and-shoot man has more going on than the close range point-and-shoot man is pretty out there.

>>376798697
>puff and sting is the ceiling of pyro
spot the retard

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>>376798697
>flare gun
lmao, how to spot the shitty pyro

>>376798798
Well yes, you could be using the reserve shooter instead, assuming you have even less dignity than spy mains.

I miss Maget Engie back in the day. Still have that obselete HLDJ folder, one day I'll play garbageday.wav again.

>>376798856
>reserve shitter

kys

>>376788283
Eh I feel like the Pyro airblast and all his extra equipment can change him to be on engi level of skill ceiling. Other than that Soldier should be on the same level as spy and no-one should be high anyway.

>>376797083
Oh, my bad, I didn't know you were a
>competitive player

Comp TF2 always was and always will be shit.

>>376799319
will u suggest and rate my loadout I just idled 2fort and got a name tag what should I call my scattergun?

>>376799437
Just paste a lenny face in the name slot.

>>376798798
>not shooting down rockets with the flare gun and then reflecting grenades into easy kills

shitter

>>376788283

Pyro has a higher skill ceiling than most would admit. Same with its usefulness.

Heavy is super useful too, but in a more unnoticeable way. Still doesn't take much skill outside positioning though.

Soldier's skill ceiling is really high, yea, but his floor is one of the lowest. Doesn't make him less useful though.

Engie is ridiculously useful but nobody fucking plays him right, same with sniper.

Spy is shit, remove him.

>tfw nobody but me likes Highlander mode

It feels like how TF2 was meant to be played

>>376801934
yeah in this game with distinct niche classes that excel at certain things and perform poorly in others, restricting people to always playing one thing for the entirety of the game regardless of the situation is totally how I would interpret it. who wouldn't want to play a mode where half your team is basically useless most of the time?