Why are games usually shit at depicting "Coming of Age"

>>376325973
Coming of age genre is inherently garbage and Holden Caulfield was a whiny prick

>>376325973
Because 90% of game devs are manchildren who haven't "come of age" themselves

>>376325973
Did Holden Caulfield ever actually come of age?

>>376325973
>write an intentionally annoying character
>book is not enjoyable to read
>THAT'S THE POINT LOL OWNED

Good book.

>>376326182
This is completely true.

>>376325973
Because they're made by companies more times than not, and people that work there more often than not forgot what it's actually like to be a kid.

Not to mention trying to appeal to teens has *neeeever* worked. Ever.

14 year old entering his last semester of english for the year i see

>>376326330
1997-2001 pro wrestling did that perfectly though

>>376326328
>read book recommended for teens
>"WOW THIS IS SHIT"

>>376326140
>Holden was a whiny prick
Yeah, that's the point. You aren't supposed to like him.

>>376325973
what games actually do that besides obscure indie stuff and Night in the Woods

>>376326686
uncharted 4

>>376325973
>This trash
>Good

It will always be a whiny teenage faggot finding his way. And that isn't unique or good writing just because there are so many whiny teenage faggots.

I liked Holden and I could relate to him at the time

>>376326735
Nathan Drake's family problems get magically resolved without him doing much

>>376326791
>this widely heralded classic isn't good because i say so
- /v/

>>376326791
but arent we all whiny teens at some point

>>376326658
>"It's shitty on purpose!"
Fuck that and fuck you. I bet you think Spec Ops is good

Holden IS a likeable character. He's a downtrodden kid whose best friend, his brother, recently died. His parents are cunts and don't care about him. Every adult he meets treats him like shit. His teacher molested him.

Yet he still goes all out for his sister and the people he meets. He's "whiny" because he's a teenager with no friends, no power, no place in his environment. It's all misdirected anger, and half of it (all his 'phoney' talk) is him just trying to emulate his dead brother's personality.

Video games don't have any good coming of age stories because the people who only play video games aren't smart enough to pick up on subtleties.

Dragon Quest 5 was pretty nice

>>376326828
and that's why you're here on an anime message boards video game section on a monday afternoon

>>376326328
It's a good book for teaching you how not to act in your teenage years, so there's that.

Books aren't like games. They get to be completely unenjoyable and alienate readers and still go on to be mega successful and get talked about by critics for years. Even the most pretentious fuckwit game has to at least work properly and not glitch out.

>>376326927
i did. it was refreshing to see the other side of the coin for war games. the gameplay was okay, enviroments were fun. I played through all the endings and had a good time

>>376326576
Did it? I never watched wrestling but I did know some people, including adults, who did watch it. I assumed it appealed to a specific demographic that included all ages.

>>376325973
Because life has multiple coming of age stages. And the teenager stage is the most cringy.

/v/ doesn't like this classic because they're overgrown manchildren that never came of age and can't relate
discuss

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>>376326658
>teacher and everyone in hs class say how they identify with holden
>mfw i dont get it at all
do they like it because he keeps calling everyone phonies or something?

>>376325973
Because games are usually a lot about combat, and kids fighting is already pretty lame from the start, and usually the "coming of age" is that the kid gets strong enough to take down some big time boss, and then it's not serious anymore.

>>376326328
>Too stupid to not get angry at depictions of realistic people

This is why the Transformers movies were some of the highest grossing movies of all time. Nothing to offend your sensibilities or make you consider.

>>376326976
Who isn't home on a monday afternoon?

I mean everyone is trying to put themselves together after the weekend.

Been close to half a decade since reading this and I still don't know if the teacher who took him in was actually a kid fucker or if Holden was just being a pussy

>>376326937
TWEWY exists though wtf

>>376325973
This book is the worst thing I've ever read. Even some fucked up fanfics arę better.

This is so popular just because the guy who read it killed the Hippie King.

>>376327380
he was trying to fuck him

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post yfw you found out Holden joins the Army and gets killed before reaching age 20

Holden's intense desire to preserve innocence is so laughably unrealistic. I really couldn't take it seriously.

>>376326472
Could be worse. They could have to read
Cold Sassy Tree.

>>376327125
it was the embodiment of late 90s teenage angst and attitude. limp bizkit, barbed wire tattoos, blood and tits.

>>376327339
people who have jobs

what kind of neet loser parties on a sunday

>>376325973
I didn't dislike Holden because he was an obnoxious ass who kept referring to other people as phonies, as I guess I can relate to disliking people whom you can't relate to. What I absolutely hated about his character was how god damn impulsive he was without any logic or reasoning from his part whatsoever.

>>376327643
im in between jobs desu, just waiting on the new place to tell me when to start.
its refreshing, my last job was stressing me out so bad so its nice to relax

never read this book. should i?

>>376326875
To be honest, Catcher in the Rye has always, ALWAYS been contested and controversial, with different scholar and authorities having major problems agreeing about the quality, as well as tone of the book. Hell, it was even banned from city, state and school libraries at one point.

So while you'd generally be right in cases of other books, this one in particular definitely isn't universally liked, and universally interpreted.

>>376327396
Suppose you did not read any other books then. I don't personally particularly like Catcher, I think that it's a bit too pointlessly cynical for my liking, even despite the somewhat uplifting ending, but it's definitely a well written and observed title.

>>376327380
>>376327482

There was literally no proof about that. Holden was just being a pussy faggot who couldn't understand that an adult understood him and was showing him kindness and affection. He just misinterpreted that as something bad.

>Hire Prostitute
>She comes to room
>Y-you wanna talk

What board would Holden browse

>>376327773
/v/

>>376327730
nice blog faggot

>>376326648
I read it when I was a teen

>>376325973
Life is Strange.

>>376327836
thanks friendo
i dont have much irl friends so i like to type long responses on /v/ in hopes that someone will respond back in a meaningful manner

>>376327773
/pol/

>>376325973
Because "Coming of Age" requires explicitly linear storytelling over a length of time, and can only function in a setting that isn't consistently interrupted by other factors, such as gameplay. Not to mention it's about the most boring storytelling technique imaginable, and serves to be the gold standard of "How to make character development easy! Just follow these 10 steps!". You could be writing about overcoming the weaknesses of an individual's obsession with a particular vice, or one's place in a significantly greater world and how that place will change with time and action, or about the exhaustive monotony of day to day labor and the passionate bliss of escapism, but you instead choose to write yet another one of the thousands of fucking boring tales of "So they were in this world, and they were unruly and unaware, but shit got real, so they had to change, and now they are better and ready for the world!" adlib cuckery. Fuck off and kill yourself.

>>376327502
Wait, what?

>>376327773
r9k

What is coming of age? Is it an american thing?

>>376327527
That would definitely appeal to teens, yeah. And even do so without alienating adults that might like that still.

So what happened after that, did they just try new stuff that didn't work?

>>376327910
that's not a coming of age story you fucking retard it takes place over one week and the characters are essentially unchanged

>tell /lit/ friend I liked brave new world
>get laughed at
What books are you supposed to read to impress /lit/? He's a fucking idiot that won't shut up about spooks or some bullshit

>>376328016
they had to push the envelope because WCW and WWF were in competing time slots. it was a ratings war so they were seeing who could go crazier. WWF wound up winning, absorbed WCW and since there's no more competition on that level they just got complacent and tired

>>376328098
Infinite Jest, whatever it is.

>>376328098
Just read Joyce, DFW or Pynchon and you'll impress /lit/

I've lived my whole life in the middle of nowhere. What the heck is that book and why is it so controversial?

>people ITT unironically hating the Bildungsroman genre because they find it impossible to relate to other human beings' experience
No wonder you cocksuckers spend all your time on a Burmese Basket Knitting forum.

>>376327992

Coming of Age is when a person leaves their younger carefree lifestyles behind and changes to adopting a mature attitude and disowning their innocence

>>376328098
ulysses and finnegans wake

>>376327992
A story about how a character is placed in an uncertain world, as as they go about their daily lives, they eventually find themselves in sobering circumstances which force them to mature. This process eventually shows what kinds of adults they will be, and the whole time we have been observing a character's youth, adolescence, and blossoming into adulthood. It's intended to show a wide range of character development and suggests that the character is far deeper than we once thought at the start of the story. It's a cheap tactic used constantly by hacks.

>>376328159
Wow. That's a sadly familiar and very corporate story.

>>376328193
>>376328195
>>376328245
I like how you guys are all on the same wavelength

I guess it's agreed to impress /lit/ you have to read something that's very verbose, unpleasant nonsense

>>376328228
>>376328297
Any examples in Vidya or books?

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>>376328214
Within the almost unlimited spectrum of the writing medium, there are the entirety of human history in potential human experiences. Writing yet another tale about how "we grow up eventually" is pedestrian at best, and intended to be read by adolescents. If you're above the age of 20, you come to realize that it's just a generic phase of human molting, and romanticizing the concept just shows how little you know about humanity.

>>376326828
I can still relate to him sometimes.

It's my favorite book.

>>376328297
J.D Salinger is a great writer

>Fights in the 2 deadliest battles of WWII

>publishes book after returning from war

>lives rest of life a hermit

>>376328098
But Brave New World was good.

>>376325973
/v/ isn't mature enough to appreciate a masterpiece

>>376328470
Clannad anime does it in some way.

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>>376328098

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best coming of age

>>376328098
>wanting to impress a retard
Read whatever you want, senpai

>>376328715
/lit/ is pretentious enough to disregard this.

>>376328697
It's not terrible, but it's pretty much babby's first dystopian fiction.

>>376328492
Do the world a favor and just don't try to pass out any more judgements about literature and narrative theory ever again.

>>376325973
Japanese version of Nier comes to mind

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what's the book about?

reading is for nerds who don't have the great sex but i'm interested about the controversy about it.

>>376329169
Teenager angst.

>>376328896
No.

>>376329169
All of the random thoughts of a 17-year-old who's an edgelord that hates everybody and has tfw no gf

>>376328098
Nothing. It's like asking what video games you should play to impress /v/, nobody gives a shit your taste is garbage regardless.

>>376329169
A 16 year old Virgin wonders alone in New York trying to get home after flunking out of every class

>>376325973
Because videogames is an escapist medium.

>>376325973
You've never played a jrpg in your life, have you?

Holden was kind of shitty but he was a kid guys. The part where he punches his roomate for seeing the girl only for sex and when he can't go through with the prostitute seeing how young she was, and his genuine care for his sister didn't make me like him, but it did make me realize he is just a scarred kid.

>>376328098

Works of russian philosophers
60s american existencialism
Top that off by reading by reading the most obscure sci-fi novel you can find, and by obscure I mean at least "Only 100 copies ever printed and only distributed to my hometown bookshops" obscure.

Now you can hold your own against 90% of /lit/

>>376330156
Nah, he's a faggot.

>>376328896
My nigga

>>376330307

Where you YagerBombed in the womb?

>>376327760
He did mention being molested before so perhaps that triggered him.

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>>376331037

Nice meme

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>>376331882
Thanks senpai I worked hard on it

>>376329169
The book is about an angsty, highly hypocritical but somewhat relatable teenager named Holden running away from his school, observing the world around him being rather nasty and somewhat confirming his edgy and judgemental attitudes, finding nothing but dissapointment and lack of understanding, clinging towards an ideal image of his dead brother as the only human worth anything (mostly because he is dead, and therefor never had the chance to dissapoint him), and eventually coming to some form of an epiphany in the end, while watching his own sister (another one of the very few people Holden can care about) in which he lets go of some of his angst, though the transformation is never fully described, making people somewhat guess what really happened there.

The controversy comes from two main sources. A) people are not sure whenever Holden is a character we are supposed to be symphatetic and even identify with, or whenever he is supposed to be intentionally unlikable. Each interpretation puts the story into a completely different light: one interpretation suggests that Holden is a victim of terrible, uncaring world, the other that he is a immature hypocrite who needs to grow up.

The other controversy stems from the first one. The "Holden is a victim of oppresive world" interpretation made the book often popular with left-wingers and hated by American right wingers, who often claimed it's a part of Communist propaganda and an attack on american values. The book was frequently censored or banned in conservative regions of US.
Chapman, the guy who shot John Lennon had the book with him when he commited the act, and claimed it was one of his inspirations to the shooting, so that did not add to it's popularity either.

In reality, the book itself is not really all that controversial, but it created a weird mythology around itself.

Look at this thread and the interpretations of the story, and then apply this mindset to video game developers.

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>>376332640
Communist propaganda huh?

Guys what about mother 3?
Lucas pretty much has to grow up quickly in a world going to shit.

You guys do know that Holden raped his sister right?

>>376332640
>>376329169
didn't the author explicitly say it was intended it to be communist propaganda but everyone told him he was wrong?

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I'm just glad I didn't have to read Catcher in the Rye during my high school years.

>>376333165
It's hard to belive for anyone who had read the book but not lived in US in the 60's, but yeah. It was fiercely hated by conservatives, and yes it was actually accused to being a commie propaganda. Which of course, made it even more popular among the left-wingers, which again harmed the books reputation again.

>>376333929
I can't find any evidence of anything like that ever happening.

>>376328098
Any book by Cormac McCarthy

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>read Ray Bradbury's Dandelion Wine for last book for AP12 Summer reading, finishing it on the last day of my last real summer vacation
I never asked for those feels

>>376334012
should've read panseés, reading it is said to be like a coming of age tradition in france

>>376328098
>reading books to impress people
you'd have a better chance of impressing people by showing off your stamp collection

>>376328297
>character development is a cheap tactic used by hacks
As expected of /v/.

>>376334224
Bradbury is one of the most underrated american authors of the last century. Seriously, he is good, much better than most people think he is. And I'm not the only one who thinks that. Borges once compared Bradbury (favorably) to Wells and Poe, and believed that he will once hold up with the same amount of respect as those guys.

>>376328492
Replace "we grow up eventually", adolescents, and 20 with any other proper descriptor and you have a post that could be applied to any writing. What a smug, arrogant, and ultimately hollow and superficial post.

Be honest /v/, did you ever admire Holden? I used to see myself as him and even planned a run away trip one time back in high school when I first read it. I don't like his character anymore but it's probably because it reminds me of my embarrassing moments in high school.

>>376334089
>It was fiercely hated by conservatives
And yet Bush Sr. said he liked it.

>>376334632
>Be honest /v/, did you ever admire Holden?
No, I hated him. I do respect the book, but the character of Holden has been for the most part one of the most unlikable characters I've ever encountered in classic fiction. I did slowly start to find some aspects of his personality redeemable at the very end (his passion for his sister in particular), but otherwise, no.
And I subscribe to the school that believes he is not supposed to be even remotely likable on purpose.

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What's your favorite book /v/?

>read catcher in the rye in hs like everyone in 10th grade and enjoyed it but did not really get holdens lonelyness that much
>end of 10th grade I was on a school trip in NYC, first time there and we had free reign to wander around time square to see a show on our own
>i decide to save money and just walk north towards central park
>walking alone in the city by myself truly alone for the first time in my life, it hit me as I was walking the same street as holden did and i got the character right then in there.

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Fuck you I liked it

>>376326927
>I don't like the main character
>Shitty

Are you fucking ten? It's literature. It's supposed to make you think, not be mindless entertainment

>>376334632
I never admired him, but I liked that he could perfectly describe how full of shit the other characters were. Even if he ended up being a complete hypocrite.

>>376334856
That is an incredibly difficult pick.

I guess - a collection of short stories by Jorge Luis Borges called "Artifacts" in my country: it's mostly selected best works from his famous large collection published in English as "Ficciones".

But damn. Then you have shit like Franz Kafka's Country Doctor, Kawabata's Dancing Girl of Izu, Bulghakov's Master and Margharita, Chapek's War with the Newts, various Bradbury's short story collections, hell, as cliché as it is, Crime and Punishment is absolutely amazing...

It's pointless to select just one book. Too many good literature out there.
The same applies to videogames as well.

>>376327773
/fit/

>>376327218
He's a kid who thinks he knows everything, looks down on other people to mask his own insecurities, and is struggling to come to terms with both his sexuality and the sexuality of others.

Relating to somebody isn't thinking they're awesome or perfect or even respectable, you're supposed to relate to the worst aspects of Holden because they are universal to the human experience.

I'm guessing you're just either not into literary themes or you have some kind of social disability.

>>376327380
He wasn't trying to fuck him at all.

It's one of the early signs of Holden's delusional assumptions about things he doesn't fully understand and also his tendency to self-destruct and push people and things away that are genuinely helpful or beneficial.

>>376335389
why do people always paint holden in such a negative light? all those negative aspects are just one side of him and are mostly a result of hormones. breaks my heart when i remember holden talking about going to that funeral and how he looks out for his sister. he's a very protective, gentle soul at heart, hence why he crumples like a leaf when faced with the first sign of trouble.

>>376325973
Not as shit as that book.

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>>376334856
Unironically pic related

>>376335389
It's not that he is flawed. It's that he is hypocritical and completely dishonest with everyone, while consistently accusing everyone else of being phony and hypocritical. People can relate to flawed characters: but there are certain types of flaws that are more difficult to swallow: dishonesty, obvious delusions and hypocrisy being one of those that aren't something anyone should be able to relate. Those are too fundamental to be just ignored or even related to.

>>376335724
Because outside of those two (admitedly very important scenes) everything he says or does in insufferable.
And yes, he is surrounded by assholes too, which make the interpetation of the book so difficult, but it does not change the fact that he is annoying, smug, judgemental often without substantiation, and really, really hypocritical, consistely blaming others for how phoney he is despite the fact that he himself insanely dishonest outside of those two very special scenes you described.

>>376336426
I think the fact that we can take the time to rip on holden about his insecurities and faults on a taiwanese tax evasion site that is supposed to be discussing video games shows how deep and well written he is. He's almost a real person the way people hate him

>>376335286
>Borges
muh negro

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>>376334856
Some retarded shit nobody likes.

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>>376327030
>Even the most pretentious fuckwit game has to at least work properly and not glitch out.
Then explain why pic related sold so goddamn much and got 9/10s all over the fucking place.

>>376337468
>>376335286
>>376334546
>Borges
man why are /v/ lit threads so good. borges is masterly.

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>>376337565
dunno

>>376334632
I thought he was a whiny cunt, which put a mirror in front of me.

>>376337248
I'm DEFINITELY not arguing that he is poorly written, or lacks complexity. And I do respect the book very much precisely because of that. As a character study, it is brilliant, and one of the reasons why the book deserves its place in literary history and such a large degree of attention.

I'm saying that he is unlikable. On a very profound level. At least until the book reveals those very few key qualities of his, which coincide with his transformation and form the climax of the story. His character is build upon traits that are entirely belivable and well put together, but I think they are also profoundly negative and that it's actually extremely important to understand that in order to understand the meaning of his entire story.

>>376337565
Paradox of off-topic threads on virtually any board, which I suspect is caused by essentially a vocal minority effect. A) you don't expect people on /v/ to have good taste in literature, which makes the reveal all the more surprising and standing out, and B), most people who don't have some form of stronger ties to literature are going to pass this thread, and the few around who probably proud themselves in their literary knowledge are going to be attracted to them, hungry for the rare option to talk about their interest or boast their "expertise". I know that is my case.

But yeah, Borges is a god of literature. I've been re-reading his works - essays and prose over and over again for nearly fifteen years now, and I'm still finding new things to love. I've never seen anyone as inspiring as him.

I don't like his poetry much though.

>>376326140
What a crummy no good lousy critique. The thing about phonies like this is they never really look at anything. I bet you don't even care where the ducks go in the winter.

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>>376334856
All quiet on the western front, Brothers Karamazov or House of leaves

>>376338082
Fuck off, no one fucking cares about ducks and shit or wants a drink with you

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>>376334856
Am I a degenerate for loving this book?

>>376335389
>I'm guessing you're just either not into literary themes or you have some kind of social disability.

It's more like he views identifying with Holden on the same level as remembering the cringe inducing and utterly pathetic way you tried to ask that girl out in high school.

Identifying with Holden is tantamount to saying that you think you're better than everyone else even though you're the same as everyone else. It's hard to think of that experience as normal.

>>376337565
There isn't a dick measuring contest going on, on who is the biggest /lit/-nerd.

>>376338493
What do you think, genius?

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>>376339213

>>376338493
Lolita is massively overrated, but definitely not a "denerate book".

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>>376325973
>Accuses a medium of being shit at depicting Coming of Age stories.
>Posts an image of one of the shittiest Coming of Age stories.

What did he mean by this?

>>376340780
>wanting to fuck kids is not degenerate

>>376341141
>>Posts an image of one of the shittiest Coming of Age stories.
stick to your percy jackson shit dude

>>376341237
Dude, you do realize that the main character is not portrayed in a positive light? The fact that the book features the theme of hebephilia does not mean that the book condones it.

>>376334856
Don Quixote
I love characters who remain faithful to their idiocy, despite what conditions are around them.
I finally understood this after I watched Baccano! again, and pined Isaac and Miria as my favorite characters.

I never read it or To Kill A Mockingbird because they were never assigned reading, we got shit like Ender's Game, Childhoods End, and Stranger in a Strange Land instead.

Am I missing out on anything, or do those books lose most of their charm if you didn't get to read them in middle school/high school?

>>376341938
To Kill a Mockingbird was one of the few assigned reading books that I hated in HS

>>376341938
Are you talking about Catcher/Mockingbird, or the Ender/Clarke/Stranger thing?

I'd actually argue that you'd be much better reading Catcher in a Rye as an adult. I think it has no place in most High School mandatory reading lists. Despite what most people think, it's a terrible book for teenagers and immature people.

>>376335471
Wasn't the teacher married to a 50/60 year old woman? You can't have kids at that age, so the teacher was kinda looking at Holden as a son, at least some legacy he could have an impression of fathood upon.

>>376341938
catcher in the rye is one of those books you can read at different points in your life and get a different perspective on. i didn't read it during school but i read it while at university and it became one of my favourite books.

to kill a mockingbird was good, but i feel like it operated on one level, whereas something like catcher in the rye is much more complex.

Bump for knowledge

>>376338493
No. Nabokov's prose is one of the few authors' worth reading. He also gets points for being one of the few authors of the mid 20th century to not be a communist shill