Find a flaw.

>>376144343
Can't think of one. It did water levels right.

>>376144343
>Sonic 3: Sonic the Hedgehog & Knuckles

You'd think someone at Sega would realize how fucking retarded that sounds.

>>376144343
It's a sonic game

>>376144343
the sonic part

>>376144343

It is a Sonic game.

>>376144928
>>376144684
>>376144597
It is THE Sonic game. The only one worth mentioning. And that is because, all the other ones suck, and this one is one of the most comprehensive, well designed games on the Genesis.

>>376144780
Delet

>>376144343
The 2D screen limits visibility so maintaining a high speed whilst dodging obstacles is very difficult.

Not to say the 3D games are better by removing said obstacles for a boost2win formula, as opposed to being more like a polished-up Utopia format.

>>376144780
Never understood the issue with this. It took maybe a handful of seconds to understand what to do

>>376144780
The game forces you to try everything to figure it out. You can try jumping on it but when that obviously doesn't work, you're supposed to think of something else to do. Yes, it's a bit of a curveball as nothing in the game is controlled like that before or ever again, but the game forces you to figure it out by locking you in the room with the barrel. If it takes you 10 min to figure it out, it's kinda your fault.

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>>376144343

>>376145907
You must be the same kind of pro who complains about turns in racing games.

>>376144343
The difficulty goes way the fuck down when you get to Mushroom Hill.

>>376147469

Which immediately spikes back up afterwards.

>>376144396
Hydrocity zone is one of the few water levels I actually like.

>>376146086
>You can try jumping on it but when that obviously doesn't work
I jumped for hours on this shit...

>>376144928
>>376144597
>>376144684
ebin

>>376146086
The fact that jumping does something so drastic tricks the player into believing they need to jump

>>376144343
-Introduced yet another character to the franchise.
-The character in question is a red, tougher and rougher version of Sonic. He even gets his own story in the game along with having his name in the title. Pretty much the traits of a OC donut steel before Deviantart even existed.
-Had a overreaching storyline. Basically introducing a story in a fucking SONIC game.
-Tried to be darker and edgier with Eggman burning down a forest in the first stage of the game.
-Confirmed that the DBZ ripoff Super Form is a staple to the series. And that other characters can also achieve that form, not just Sonic, even a fucking robot Sonic.

It was literally the cause of everything wrong with Sonic in the future.

>>376146086
>You can try jumping on it but when that obviously doesn't work
It's not obvious, though. Jumping on it causes it to move, and jumping on it with the right timing causes it to move even more. The only message it's sending is 'your timing sucks', not 'do something else'.

>>376149752

So was Final Fantasy 6, but everyone pretends it was 7's fault.

>>376149752
But anon, you're listing everything it did right...

>>376144780
I just barely play sonic 3 for the first time, I say people said they had a hard time with this but I don't get it. my only problem was some of the bosses.

will Sonic Mania top it?

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Not enough knuckles

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>>376144343
3&K is pretty close to flawless, but I can think of one thing that none of ya'll thought of: the bubble shield doesn't take slopes into consideration. Thankfully, this is something that Mania is going to fix.

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>>376144343
Super Emeralds

Aside from that it's really solid. been meaning to replay it one last time before i kick the bucket, but alas, life caught up.

>>376151170
>hating the super emerald challenges
nigga

It's actually two games split up and separate they're not as good.

>>376149752
>Everything that made it an interesting game
>But I only think in memes so because it was badly done in other games, it's bad now

Do you also whine about Terminator 2 and the Harry Potter sequels?

>>376150070
You do realize most us played when we were children, right?

sending me to autistic minigame of filling up orbs that takes too long without asking first so I have to kys myself whenever I step into them
too many slider gimmicks

>>376152082
>Without asking first
Don't jump, you idiot.

>>376151985
How is that possible when you're a child right now

>>376149939
no, "good game but a bad influence" was 7, not 6.

>>376152127
in every other game I have to deliberately jump to get to the minigame, in this one the levels have parts that shoot you into the ring

>>376150823
that's mania right?

>>376152645
Yessir.

>>376152127
Not him. but some of the rings you don't even have to jump into. You can end up in an alcove and get warped since it spawns the second you enter.

>>376144780

I like to imagine this was iizukas major contribution to the game. Everything just makes more sense that way

>>376152215
:^)

Hydrocity Zone Act 1 was inferior to Act 2.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPYzgCI6Q1I

I remember reading how Michael Jackson was disappointed with the soundtrack's results. I wonder how much better it would've been if the Genesis' sound chip wasn't so weak.

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>Sega went and made 3d models for a bunch of the Archie characters
>they still haven't been in a game.

>>376149752
Excellent job debunking the myth that Mario is the superior platformer.

>>376153362
It was the sound chip he hated

There is no widescreen remaster

>>376146086
>You can try jumping on it but when that obviously doesn't work
That's the worst thing about it, it actually does, you had to be extremely precise on the timing of Sonic and Tails' jumps but you can get through that part only with jumps.

>>376153452
There more of these?

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>>376146086
>Yes, it's a bit of a curveball as nothing in the game is controlled like that before or ever again, but the game forces you to figure it out by locking you in the room with the barrel.
You know what I love? That 24 years later, erry body's still rustled about this, still unable to see the bait even in hindsight.

Think about what I quoted. Do you think that was an accident? In the frickin' carnival level? The damn fun house, whacky, unconventionally themed domain of trolls?

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>>376154074

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>>376154074
And
>>376154004

>>376146086
>You can try jumping on it but when that obviously doesn't work, you're supposed to think of something else to do.
The thing is that video games of the eighties and nineties had this certain way of teaching you how to play the game without you needing tutorials like today - it teaches you through experience. In Super Mario Brothers, if you touch an enemy on its side you die but if you jump on its head you'll kill it. The entire first stage of Mega Man X nails that sort of thing.
But that barrel.... it just appears out of nowhere in Carnival Night zone. So you see it for the first time and jump on it. What happens? You get feedback from it and it starts to move. So naturally, the player thinks that by jumping on it repeatedly the barrel will gain momentum allowing you to reach the next area. And if it somehow works out on the first barrel like >>376153701 described, the player will attempt to recreate that thinking they it right only for the timer to run out and lose a life. All they had to do was put a D pad like shape on the barrel with up and down arrows and it would have been obvious what to do.
Fuck, I'm glad I got that off my chest.

>>376153452
The fuck is this?

>>376154074
>>376155051
He's lying. They were made by someone on Deviantart who can make good 3D renders of characters.

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>>376144780
wait a minute....................

>>376155580
Archie used them for splash pages in When Worlds Collide.

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>>376155580
Here's the cover for the 257th Sonic the Hedgehog Archie comic.

Cool a Sonic thread let's get some beats in here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFHDZ_gsNc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BDGp5hOCjk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6pWNjjThB0

most of the Sonic & Knuckles stages are ass imo. just went back and played it through a few years ago

Sonic 2 will always be the best to me

>>376155580
A deviantart 3d artist hired by Archie and Sega.

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>>376144343
>Find a flaw.

Everything that was fixed or added in this.

>>376144780

If you have the bubble shield, you can do the barrel with ease as well.

>>376156678
>can't play on my porrman's everdrive
WOOOOW

>>376146086
>You can try jumping on it
Yeah, and it bobbed downward. In a game with physics and momentum it would be apparent for the player to use their characters weight while jumping down on the barrel to eventually force it down far enough to escape the room.

You have to remember, this is from a game in which you cannot go up a vertical ramp when you come from a standstill, you need to accelerate and build up speed before you can go up that ramp. So you use everything that the game and the rest of the series taught you about its mechanics and went ahead and deceived you in thinking that the barrel adhered to everything else in the game.

>>376150208
Nah. It'll probably be better than Sonic 2, though.

>>376156881
>retards flock the thread to find validation within as soon as the barrel is mentioned
like clockwork

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>>376156725
>paying for an everdrive

>>376157097
?
they were really cheap when I found out about them, so cheap it seemed stupid not to
I do still buy cartridges for the games I really like and are decently priced, but no way I'm paying the obscene price people ask for some of them

>>376144343
You can't fight Big Arm as Sonic after Launch Base.

>>376156678
/thread

Dr Robotniks Diabolical Traps.

>>376153452
>>376156321
that one fucker that sued Archie and sega over his sonic OC
YEAH i WONDER WHY

>>376153452
her eyelashes are visible through her eyeball

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>>376144343
>>Find a flaw
>weak difficulty-curve
>largely repetitive: loop-the-loops, half-pipes, vaccuum tubes, spring boards, getting hit, collecting a ring, getting hit, collecting a ring, bouncing on Eggman for eight seconds
>time-consuming mini-games
>co-op is frustrating for the 2nd player: lack of tension through invincibility, always falling out of the camera view, no co-op mechanics besides flying (and nothing to fly to usually)
>art direction becoming more 'realistic', narrative-based, character-relationships, and edgier

I firmly believe Sonic 1 remains the best of the entire series. The artwork was at its peak in representing a romantic cartoon world, the speed was still slow enough to incorporate some difficulty and traditional platforming, the single mini-game included can be completed very fast and actually looks quite pretty and precious for the emerald, no story, concise character cast, conservative amount of levels that works well for 1CC-ing

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>>376146086
>If it takes you 10 min to figure it out, it's kinda your fault

It took me at least 10 years...

>>376159425
>>weak difficulty-curve
>>largely repetitive: loop-the-loops, half-pipes, vaccuum tubes, spring boards, getting hit, collecting a ring, getting hit, collecting a ring, bouncing on Eggman for eight seconds
>>time-consuming mini-games
>>co-op is frustrating for the 2nd player: lack of tension through invincibility, always falling out of the camera view, no co-op mechanics besides flying (and nothing to fly to usually)
>>art direction becoming more 'realistic', narrative-based, character-relationships, and edgier
Shittiest list of criticisms ever cobbled together. Poor bases for critique, critiquing non-issues, riddled with subjectivity through and through.

2/3rds of the Knuckles level.

Sonic fans need to learn vanilla Sonic 3 is better.

>>376160815
Can you elaborate on why you think that?

>>376160962
In a few

The soundtrack is the worst out of three games.

>>376156678
You're saying 3 Complete is dogshit?

>>376145191
>He hasn't played Sonic Colors, Rush, Advance, Generations
You should try them sometime, anon.

>>376153452
>Sega went and made 3d models for a bunch of the Archie characters
SEGA did not make them.

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Sonic 3 has the ideal method of story telling in video games.

>>376159425
>Sonic 1 remains the best in the entire series
Until you get to Marble Zone, you mean. Then it becomes shit.
No, before you say it, not because you can't "gotta go fast" in Marble Zone. It's because Sonic's entire gameplay, his entire character design even, is based on slopes, momentum and rolling. When you have an entire zone made up of square blocks then you have failed to create a Sonic level.

>>376144343
You have to get the Super Emeralds to become Super Tails.
Competition Mode is lacking in comparison to what Sonic 2 offered.
Chrome Gadget isn't a 1P Mode Stage.
It was broken up into 2 separate games.
Too many "stop hitting yourself/you have to wait it out" bosses.
The numerous bugs littered throughout the game that are piss easy to fall into or will kill you, ranging from simply ducking at looping falls, to the invisible pitfall that occurs at the final boss at Death Egg Zone.
You are literally railroaded into Knuckles' path when playing as Knuckles.

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>>376150208
I think so. Both Studiopolis and Mirage Saloon look really good so far. I can't wait to see what the other levels are. Plus the Drop Dash seems like a good replacement for the Insta Shield.

>>376160893
It's not, not even remotely

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Levels look like ass compared to this

>>376144343
it's fans

Lava Reef and that fucking tomb level where the sand would rise up were awful.

I think I spent 9 minutes on both.

>>376161596
>It's because Sonic's entire gameplay, his entire character design even, is based on slopes, momentum and rolling.
I don't necessarily disagree here. Green Hill Zone is obviously the classic level and epitome of Sonic gameplay. However, just because Marble Zone isn't making use of speed or slopes, does that make it -bad-? I think Marble Zone is a solid, slow-paced platforming level. That Sonic 1 contains such 'non-Sonic' levels is what I feel makes it superior to the rest of the series. There is a dramatic relief from the 'spin-dash, loop-the-loops, spin-dash, half-pipes, vaccuum tubes, spring boards, getting hit, collecting a ring, getting hit, collecting a ring, bouncing on Eggman for eight seconds'. Sonic 1 has few levels, and in general is very concise compared to its sequels, I think that's what makes it the best. The formula was always going downhill from the start, it was just too difficult to make a speed-based platformer in 2D.

I think the appeal of 3&K is that it is basically just the first 2 games on steroids: tons of levels, 4 character possibilities, tons of speed, tons of machines, exploration, different paths, super characters, big bosses. I think if someone is a fan of the series and can't see the basic flaws in the premise, then they'll prefer 3&K. But if you just see Sonic as one game among many classics, then I think Sonic 1 has the least flaws and most balance. It's the most elegant. 2 is obviously inbetween these.

>>376162739
I think Sonic's art progression seems to anticipate the jump from 2D to 3D, romantic charm to ugly realism, peak of a graphical style to the beginning of a new one. At least in quality.

>>376160962
>>376159425
>>weak difficulty-curve
Presupposes difficulty skewed favorably towards the high-end is ideal.

>>largely repetitive: loop-the-loops, half-pipes, vaccuum tubes, spring boards, getting hit, collecting a ring, getting hit, collecting a ring, bouncing on Eggman for eight seconds
Ridiculous, the same could be said about virtually any game. Good luck explaining how Mario World for example is any less repetitive. It sounds rather like you just don't enjoy this one, personally.

>>time-consuming mini-games
Absurd. First, the mini-games are optional, unnecessary, and easily avoidable. Half of them are deliberately hidden in out of the way locations. Second, 'time-consuming' is an exaggeration and implies time has meaning, implying there's other things you'd rather be doing than Sonic 3, again suggesting your bias. Third, instead of whining that there's too much content to partake of you should rightly be praising the game instead, for including three different special stages plus a totally separate mode of play to that, bonus stages - a dozen of them locked on to Sonic 3, and literally millions when locked on to other games.

1/2

>>376163398

>>co-op is frustrating for the 2nd player: lack of tension through invincibility, always falling out of the camera view, no co-op mechanics besides flying (and nothing to fly to usually)
There is no basis for this criticism. Compared to the state of vidya in general at the time, drop-in-drop-out 2player co-op was actually a pretty nice feature. Therefore the fact the game contains now, and did then, that feature is praiseworthy in the first place. Nitpick about how shitty it is all you want, it's Sega Genesis hardware, and if you don't suck it's not an issue. Besides, what do you honestly expect? Be realistic. At least there is the possibility for the 2nd player to participate at the same time at all. Do you also fault Mario games of the era for their even more egregious lack of multiplayer functionality?

>>art direction becoming more 'realistic', narrative-based, character-relationships, and edgier
Pure subjective opinion, unclear how this is even a flaw, technically, and no case made that it is or explanation of any kind.

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>>376163104
But the thing that made sonic levels unique to those from other games is the huge basis in fantasy blending nearly seamlessly with more traditional settings and modern technology, while simultaneously being completely consistent with the world that sonic games take place.

3K does have a bit of exception to this, though, as its levels are somewhat limited by the overarching setting of the entire game and the lore contained therein. it justifiably lacked a lot of technological advancement that produced such gorgeous landscapes, but made up for it with the story and worldbuilding it provided through the master emerald and everything that it entailed.

Also, you might want to take a look at these vids. they actually make a lot of good points on the gameplay aspects you're talking about.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AK3n-srj5E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPS4PsVS5yc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVKFRxgwSWE

Added a save system where it wasn't needed, you had to wait ten months for the second part, but you got a better game and could play as Knuckles in Sonic 2.

Also made vanilla Sonic 3 look pathetic as a result, going back to my first point.

>>376164706
>going back to my first point.
You have no first point.

>>376163398
>Presupposes difficulty skewed favorably towards the high-end is ideal.
What I mean is that the curve doesn't get very steep, a great game should at least be able to offer some incentive towards mastering it. I don't find much to learn in Sonic games. It seems more about coasting through and admiring the visuals and music, most of the time.

>Good luck explaining how Mario World for example is any less repetitive.
Well if we take SMW as an example, the difficulty curve is much more refined. Most players should be able to finish the game, and for those who want a little something extra there are the more challenging special zones. As for repetition, SMW has less of it because it is a less ambitious concept: it was easy to implement many different types of enemies and obstacles in a classic 2D platformer.

>It sounds rather like you just don't enjoy this one, personally.
Essentially all I'm saying is that 3&K is more bloated than Sonic 1 and inferior for that reason. I loved 3&K as a child because back then the bloat didn't seem like bloat, since I was simply desperate for more Sonic content as long as it was passable, and when you then get something as jam-packed with content as that game was, it was easy to love it and fail to see any flaws. Let's use the 2D/3D analogy again. 3&K is like 3D, because at the time it was released your mind would be blown by all the innovations and extra features being thrown your way. But when you play these games in retrospect, the best 2D games end up being better (especially visually) than the very first 3D games, and those first attempts at introducing things like save files, spindash, seriousness-narrative-characterisation will seem like negative additions to the formula. A game that perfects all its minimal features will be superior to a game with more features that aren't completely refined.

So for me 3&K is more a visual and sandbox experience. Sonic 1 remains where the gameplay peaked through sheer concision.

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>>376164973
>Not Sonic CD
If you're gonna be contrarian then at least have some taste

>>376164952
Scared of games where you have to play it all in one sitting?

>>376161596
Marble Zone is great, and how can they fail to create a Sonic level in the first game? What would that make of the Labyrinth Zone or Scrape Brain?

>>376162846
>Lava Reef
>awful
t. retard

>>376144343
Sonic & Knuckles replaces the superior music of Sonic 3 a lot of times

>>376163597
>Do you also fault Mario games of the era for their even more egregious lack of multiplayer functionality?
Yes, but the way you keep bringing up Mario is unseemly, just address my points without mentioning what was its commercial rival (this stinks of fanboyism, and lack of other comparisons).

>There is no basis for this criticism. Compared to the state of vidya in general at the time, drop-in-drop-out 2player co-op was actually a pretty nice feature. Therefore the fact the game contains now, and did then, that feature is praiseworthy in the first place. Nitpick about how shitty it is all you want, it's Sega Genesis hardware
I was thinking of Disney's 'World of Illusion' which actually contained great co-op mechanics. I don't think it was beyond Sonic Team to implement something like that instead of pissing about with a new character and his own routes.

>Pure subjective opinion, unclear how this is even a flaw, technically, and no case made that it is or explanation of any kind.
If you are so philosophically unkempt that you fail to realise that ALL opinions are subjective (and as if that makes them all equally valid for some reason) then you shouldn't steer the conversation in that direction.

>unclear how this is even a flaw, technically, and no case made that it is or explanation of any kind.
Less-pleasing visuals are a flaw simply because they make the worlds less appealing to play through. My analogy was the jump from mature 2D to early 3D. I think Sonic did the same thing, it became more serious--which to my mind seems to be common sense to avoid in a cartoon platformer. The cuter and more naive the better. Cartoons aren't the place for narrative and characterisation, if you include them then they will date fast, which is what I think happened to Sonic. At this point he is considered a 90s caricature: Awesome! Cool! Dude!

>>376164973
>So for me 3&K is more a visual and sandbox experience. Sonic 1 remains where the gameplay peaked through sheer concision.

forgive me if i'm generalizing, but it seems that you prefer sonic 1's more gameplay-oriented premise than 3K's preference for story, due to the latter feeling like its dictating your actions. perfectly fine, as in sonic 1 and cd there really isnt any story moving you forward other than the usual "save the world" thing. Everything in those games kind of existed for its own sake and was awesome for it, but in 3K everything was confined to Angel Island and the story of the game.

Am I correct?

>replying to the master baiter >implying that S3&K is a bad game
You guys fall for everything.

>>376165264
That art's kino. Who made it?

>>376165804
Only song of value replaced was the miniboss song.

>>376165804
All of the & Knuckles versions sound better anyway.

>>376165926
I did. Glad you like it.

>>376164378
Exactly, with 3K the lore leads the art direction. My basic premise is that lore is something to avoid in a cartoon platformer, which should favour a timeless cute simplicity.

>>376165926
It's from the PC version of the game

>>376151290
I can remember planning my route out on a grid sheet I made, my first ever game I loved enough to complete.

>>376164973
>a great game should at least be able to offer some incentive towards mastering it.
That's fine if you don't care for the game, but the fact is, it does provide you with versatile statistics tracking and recording keeping in the from of the Score, Time, and Rings fields, enabling multiple different playstyles to pursue if you so choose. The skill ceiling is there, the tally screen at the end of each act proves it. You are being willfully blind here.

>>376164973
>difficulty curve is much more refined.
Meaningless given that you don't understand Sonic's difficulty, your comparison can't be accurate. Besides, we're talking about games specifically designed so that 90's kids who never played a video game before stood a reasonable chance of being able to complete them without too much difficulty. Splitting hairs about the difficulty of Sonic 3 and Mario World is a weak, in principle and in practice. Because, difficulty is not really a factor, anyway, unless you're on the bottom end of the spectrum, or the top, as say speedrunners might be, in some ways.

>>376164973
>a great game should at least be able to offer some incentive towards mastering it.
Sonic 3 has 2 transformations for each of its 4 player character combinations, technically speaking, each of which radically alters normal gameplay and boasts special unique implicit abilities. This facilitates the fact of the game having a legitimate 'end game' to it, including unlockable levels and multiple endings.

Character sprites look like absolute trash.

Game has little sense of challenge.

Music/art design/ aesthetics are pretty bland in comparison to other classic Sonic games.

>>376165264
I've not played much Sonic CD so I can't rate it fairly. From what I remember it was halfway between 1 and 2. So basically faster gameplay and more content-exploration. So Sonic 1 would still out-perform it, having less but more refined content/levels.

I don't think it's contrarian to think that the game SEGA put all their hopes and dreams into is going to be superior to the sequels that have chosen become more than just games (by then Sonic has become a world, a brand, a story) and don't have as much risk and potential riding on them.

>>376166045
see>>376165826

i agree with that on certain points, but if the thing separated awesome titles like CD and 3K is the line between story and gameplay, then said line is thinner than a wire. story does have to be present to some degree, or elsewise players wouldn't have too much in which to feel invested. still, sonic 1 and cd still have a good reason for players to finish the game, but 3K has a more overarching thing that has consistency with the zones. too much consistency to allow for extravagant settings like CD has.

>>376165819
>pissing about with a new character and his own routes.
>pissing about
Wut. It was bloody brilliant that they added that. Do you know how hard that was?

>>376165819
>(this stinks of fanboyism, and lack of other comparisons).
Please, I enjoy Mario, and while I am ashamed of Sonic's fanbase, I'll not be shamed for being, outside of it, a Sonic fan. I could care less for, hate, or refuse to acknowledge the existence of every Sonic game other than 3K. But I hold 3K in very high regard.

>>376166070
>>376166009
Hold on a second, who's messing with me?

>>376166441
Sonic CD is the most overrated Sonic. It's the hipster choice of the classic. People go on about it, but if you play it you'd realise it's a massive clusterfuck mess of a game. You have more control and freedom in Sonic Spinball

This is the only MD Sonic game to make me motion sick because of those Special Stages. Still the best ever though.

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>>376166814

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>>376166812

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>>376155665

>>376152893
IIRC he designed Sky Sanctuary

>>376150823
eh. at least in 3K the bubble shield was omnipresently consistent, always bouncing vertically wherever it was used. i can already tell its gonna take a lot of time to get used to in Mania.

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>>376144343
after you beat the game you can't even play as any other characters

like luigi

or jafar

>>376144780
stop

>>376167606
xD

>>376150823
I have never been more excited for Mania than after seeing this vid.

>>376165826
>forgive me if i'm generalizing, but it seems that you prefer sonic 1's more gameplay-oriented premise than 3K's preference for story,
Pretty much, yes. 3K has the same problem as things like JRPGs, their merits are bordering on interactive-novels rather than games. When the gameplay feels relatively easy and you just coast through without out much depth to learn or be challenged-by, then instead of the story supporting the game, the game is supporting the story.
>due to the latter feeling like its dictating your actions.
I don't think this is my problem exactly. Plenty of games with great gameplay are extremely linear (MGS1 for example) in order to follow a story. My problem is that here the gameplay seems to have deteriorated since the first game, and instead they focused on impressing the player through story and sheer additional content/effects.

>>376165872
I'm not baiting and I didn't say anything was bad. But if this is how you deal with contrary opinions, cool.

>>376166370
>That's fine if you don't care for the game, but the fact is, it does provide you with versatile statistics tracking and recording keeping in the from of the Score, Time, and Rings fields, enabling multiple different playstyles to pursue if you so choose. The skill ceiling is there, the tally screen at the end of each act proves it. You are being willfully blind here.
Maybe 'mastering' was the wrong word here. But everything you just mentioned comes under 'playing for score', and therefore to some extent are arbitrary/self-imposed challenges. What I meant is that the games core mechanics should be complex enough to require dedication in order to wield them fluently/as the ideal character would. To give you an example, it takes a lot of practice to complete Ninja Gaiden's (1989) levels as an actual ninja would, and that is without playing the game with self-imposed rules like attempting the highest possible score, not being damaged, acquiring all items, not using items etc.

>>376156348
>someone else is a sucker for Shadow the Hedgehog's soundtrack
>Cosmic Fall posted

Mah nigger.

>>376167606
Face it, breakfast is ruined.

>>376167062
I-I'm only pretending to be retarded, I swear!

pls no bully

>>376167903
>What I meant is that the games core mechanics should be complex enough to require dedication in order to wield them fluently/as the ideal character would.
>how I imagine they should be
And you think playing for actually measurable yet still similarly self-imposed goals is arbitrary?

And I would argue that Sonic 3K's core mechanics far surpass Mario World's in complexity, so...

>>376166370
>Meaningless given that you don't understand Sonic's difficulty, your comparison can't be accurate. Besides, we're talking about games specifically designed so that 90's kids who never played a video game before stood a reasonable chance of being able to complete them without too much difficulty. Splitting hairs about the difficulty of Sonic 3 and Mario World is a weak, in principle and in practice. Because, difficulty is not really a factor, anyway, unless you're on the bottom end of the spectrum, or the top, as say speedrunners might be, in some ways.
Well you brought up Mario yourself, and I find that (SMW) a better difficulty-curve than 3K. You explain the reason for this flaw yourself, that Sega wanted to make sure the new gamers of the 90s could have a not-too-challenging run through. I think the games suffer because of that today. Even in the middle of the difficulty spectrum there's not much to Sonic, and there is even less as you go higher.

>Sonic 3 has 2 transformations for each of its 4 player character combinations, technically speaking, each of which radically alters normal gameplay and boasts special unique implicit abilities. This facilitates the fact of the game having a legitimate 'end game' to it, including unlockable levels and multiple endings.
The special shields, tails' flying, or knuckles' abilities aren't bad additions, but I don't think the core Sonic gameplay was good enough to warrant creating them. Same problem with unlockable levels and multiple endings, I prefer Sonic 1 because it has less levels and less endings, that are however superior.

>>376167903
>the gameplay seems to have deteriorated since the first game
I can see that, though the hidden passageways for rings, shields, and special stages were a spectacular touch

i think what makes 1, CD, and possibly 2 better than 3K is that you don't know what to expect when going from zone to zone. everything ends up being new and consistently surprising. The games end up feeling like a fantastic dream due to this, and the experience is unlike most games in the series.

Need to buy 2 games to get what should've been 1 game all along

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Be honest.
How many of you actually knew about the secret Tails route in Act 1 Death Egg before you read this post?

>>376168495
I'll grant you that MW is harder on average, but this means nothing in and of itself, and what Sonic lacks in difficulty it makes up for in replay value, which is self-evidently valuable. The proof is in the levels, they beg to be replayed so the player can memorize parts and go fast. Tapping into Sonic's speed is its own reward, and the whole point of the game. Also, playing at high speeds is more dynamic, exhilarating and satisfying than the whatever satisfaction Mario's gameplay can provide.

>>376168407
>And you think playing for actually measurable yet still similarly self-imposed goals is arbitrary?
Playing fluently--which is what playing as the character would is--isn't 'self-imposed' in the same way playing for something outside of the game world is (like score, or any other kind of numeric abstraction).

Videogames are simulations of a scenario. Playing like the character would play is basically just using the mechanics fluently, the fucking developers created these mechanics based on some idea of a character and ideally that is what they will allow a good player to do if they are good controls. People COMPLAIN when controls don't match basic expectations of character/physics/etc. Things like score are secondary, score is just a way to quantify how good you have been playing. Sometimes it will even miss your best work in a game, if you happen to do something that isn't simple enough to measure. In the same way, rings are an abstraction of Sonics 'health'/'life', or collectables at best.

>>376144343
no women, poc or queer characters :/

>>376168407
>And I would argue that Sonic 3K's core mechanics far surpass Mario World's in complexity, so...
Well they are more complex in the sense that a bicycle is more complex transport than your legs are. However, a good runner (SMW) will outperform a bad cyclist with a puncture. Sonic's probablem has always been that the speed concept clashes with 2D 4:3 perspective. The first game mitigated this by being slower, and having a more balanced mix of platforming and speed and difficulty.

>>376169554
>queer
Tails
>poc
Knuckles

>>376169036
what the fuCK

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>>376169621
Underrated post.

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>>376144780
This desu senpai.

>>376169554
Sonic is blue, Tails is orange, Knuckles is red, all the animals are as diverse as it gets.

>>376169247
>outside of the game world is (like score, or any other kind of numeric abstraction).
Numeric abstraction? Rings are literally in the game, there are thousands of them. If striving to collect them is figuratively outside of the game world somehow, then surely adhering to a strict imagined code of conduct that governs what movements you take is also equally out there. Both methods address the same primary problem, fundamentally: what to do with the character's body while traveling through space and time. How is doing it for rings any different than doing it for style? And why should the former preclude fluidity but not the latter? For that matter, why can't you collect rings 'like the character' would do it? Yours and my modes are not mutually exclusive.

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>>376169851
Hedgehogs are over-represented in the game. They are the white people of the Sonic universe.

>>376169119
But even memorising the levels doesn't allow you to go much faster than your ordinary playthroughs, because in the first place most of the time it's all set up so you can easily go really fast most of the time, and only a minority of enemies and obstacles impede that. Whereas in a game with a higher difficulty curve, there is much more potential for increasing how dynamic your run is.

>>376169574
>Sonic's probablem has always been that the speed concept clashes with 2D 4:3 perspective
In theory, yes, this will deter new players on their first playthrough from unlocking the full potential of the game. And rightfully so! That's the point. Unless you have zero short term memory, this is a non issue in practice for the average fan of the game, hypothetically. They are familiar enough with the level layouts they are able to overcome that hardware limitation. This is a good thing IMO.

>>376170090
What about Elise?

>>376170090
Shadow's black. And mixed.

>>376169036
seeing shit like your post is what makes me dislike 3D Sonic games, the level design doesn't really have multiple routes as the 2D ones did, making 3D Sonics just boring because there isn't much to the levels while classic ones had the slight exploration/optimal route element to them

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>>376144780
I can't believe so many people got stumped by this
I can't believe I was one of them

>>376170726
>muh multiple routes
>there's only two routes + the Tails exclusive one

>>376170262
>But even memorising the levels doesn't allow you to go much faster than your ordinary playthroughs,
Sorry, but no.

>because in the first place most of the time it's all set up so you can easily go really fast most of the time,
Sweeping generalization is inaccurate.

>and only a minority of enemies and obstacles impede that.
That depends which of the many routes you take, and how you respond to any mistakes you might make along the way. This is another generalization, I don't think it's accurate.

>Whereas in a game with a higher difficulty curve, there is much more potential for increasing how dynamic your run is.
You're presupposing a lot there.

>>376169979
>Numeric abstraction? Rings are literally in the game, there are thousands of them.
I meant in the sense of treating it as a score / the higher the better. If you read my whole post you'd see I also recognised them to be collectibles within the game world (though not exactly an interesting one, right? They aren't there for score, they aren't there even for collecting... the primary function is to provide a forgiving health/life system).

>If striving to collect them is figuratively outside of the game world somehow
It's outside because they are there for primarily there for health and collecting, not score/number of rings (the exceptions being the relevant number needed for special stages/super sonic).

>strict imagined code of conduct that governs what movements you take is also equally out there
It's not imagined, you dense fucking retard. It's not imagined to think that you're meant to kill all the enemies without taking a hit at as fast a speed as possible, instead of jumping into any spike pit you see. THE GAME IS INTUITIVELY TO BE PLAYED THIS WAY, ANY FAILURE TO PLAY THIS WAY IS SIMPLY DUE TO DIFFICULTY OR LACK OF SKILL.

Playing for score is explicitly a secondary goal, lying outside of the game world. Look up the fucking history of the concept. The rules of the game world on the otherhand are not even written, they are intuitively expected of the player. Being Sonic is to go fast, stylishly. Fucking basic.

>>376170853
better than 1 corridor which is the standard level design of 3D Sonic games

>>376169554
>No women
Amy

>>376170351
Except from Sonic 1 onwards there has been less and less need for memorisation as it got easier. Even Sonic 1 is pretty streamlined. The developers have never implemented any difficulty or gameplay potential that requires much memorisation.

Sonic is lauded for being the fastest game of its time. Yet endless slower-paced games feature more /difficulty due to speed/ than sonic does. How does that work? Because Sonic didn't even try to have fast-paced difficulty.

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>>376169036
Will I ever stop finding out new things about 3&K? Jesus Christ.

>>376170853
>>there's only two routes + the Tails exclusive one
Look at the image again, captain retardo.

>>376170905
>Sweeping generalization is inaccurate.
The amount of springs, half-pipes, loop-the-loops, etc confirms my point. There are *interruptions* to speed in Sonic, that's about it. If you are good you can avoid even those. But interruptions don't add up to much compared to whole sections of speed.

>>376146086
Whatever retarded justification the devs came up with doesn't mean it isn't a flaw

>>376144343
No fangame industry like Mario World

>>376161123
I have and still had more enjoyment out of the adventure franchise.

>>376149752
>these things were bad because they used them in future bad games

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>>376171452
>Sonic
>No fangame industry like Mario World

>>376156678
Does it increase the drawing distance? Are there Sonic 1 and 2 equivalents of this?

>>376170914
>the primary function is to provide a forgiving health/life system).
How the hell do you know what the primary function is? The rings are a beautifully multipurpose solution to health, collectibles, and player guidance through the vast, interconnected, secret-filled levels.

>>376170914
>It's outside because they are there for primarily there for health and collecting,
Based on what evidence? Your opinion doesn't count.

>>376170914
>THE GAME IS INTUITIVELY TO BE PLAYED THIS WAY,
You know the way - the one, true way - the game is meant to be played. Through the unlikely combination of your own imagination, deduction, and astral projecting your consciousness back to 1993 into the mind of Yuki Naka, you know how it objectively 'should' be played. Because that's the argument you're making: there is an objectively right and obvious method. And if anyone fails to perform it, you know why that is, too.

Got it.

>>376149828
But no matter how many times you jump on it, it doesn't give way, so clearly that's not what you're supposed to do. If it were what you were supposed to do, it would give way.

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>>376171761
>drawing distance

>>376150208
Other than some possible refinement of mechanics, I actually don't think so. Partially because half of the levels are reworkings/revisits of old levels.

S3&K had a background story to tie it all together. Maybe "Sonic 5: Sonic Mania 2" will be given the freedom to do so. unless Sonic Mania somehow has a plot other than a collection of levels

>>376171227
>Sonic is lauded for being the fastest game of its time. Yet endless slower-paced games feature more /difficulty due to speed/ than sonic does. How does that work?
Speed and difficulty are not the same thing.

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>>376169036
I knew, but only because I looked at all those maps before. It was the only route I never discovered.

>>376144684
>>376144597
xD

>>376145191

>Implying

Sonic 2 is THE Sonic game. Sonic 3 and Knuckles is just pretty good.

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>>376168495
>The special shields, tails' flying, or knuckles' abilities aren't bad additions, but I don't think the core Sonic gameplay was good enough to warrant creating them.
Tails' flying ability completely changes the players approach to the level and the pace of the game. It allows exploration at the players own pace which can then be brought back into the Sonic game. Similarly with Knuckles in certain areas.

>>376171440
>There are *interruptions* to speed in Sonic, that's about it.
There are interruptions to speed in racing games too. They are called turns. Are racing games fundamentally flawed, then?

>>376146086

As a kid, I remember that I pressed up and down as I jumped and landed, and I actually got it to work. I need to try to recreate that as an adult to see if my memory isn't bullshit, but I know for fact that I got past it.

>>376171843
draw distance* warinasai

>>376171835
The barrel room you get trapped in is very tall. It lets you jump very high up and in turn jump from a great height down onto the barrel.

What this communicates along with the timing issue is that you're supposed to just time it well, as this has the most noticeable level of influence on the barrel.
The room is actually tall just so you can safely do the press up and down control.

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>>376172256
>2D game
>draw distance

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>>376144343
Hydrocity (wall that closes in on you underwater)
Carnival Zone (giant bouncing cylinder)
Marble Garden (spinning tops)

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>>376155665
I really really like this

>>376172380
>I do not comprehend
Then you might be retarded.

If I wanted to make my own custom levels as a ROM hack for a sonic game, would sonic 3 and knuckles be the best one to do? It has the most characters plus mecha sonic is a plus.

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>>376169641 >>376170726 >>376171253 >>376171940
If you leave the Menu idle for about 47 minutes the background music changes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmWgcM0CkKw
This is canon

>>376172498
Oh please, enlighten me.

>>376172310
>What this communicates along with the timing issue is that you're supposed to just time it well, as this has the most noticeable level of influence on the barrel
Yes, until you find that it doesn't work to do it like that.

>>376172609
You not getting something, and being the only one at that. Seems to indicate to me you're the retarded one. Hopefully that clears things up on your end.

>>376144343
Terrible level order.

>>376172572
Already knew that one. How about this: the Insta-Shield not only grants you invincibility frames and an extended hit box but also gives back air control after performing a jump from a ground roll.

>>376160443
Wow you're fucking stupid. It only took me 8 years.

>>376172738
You didn't explain a god damn thing.

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>>376172403
>not liking hydrocity

>>376172839
Because I'm not retarded

>>376171896
>he doesn't know
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rDCmCd8BVo&feature=youtu.be&t=6m28s

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>>376144343
It's 2D, and not 3D

>>376172572
I actually didn't know this, is it a bug?

>>376172936
The fact that you claim a 2D game can have draw distance indicates the opposite.

>>376171807
>How the hell do you know what the primary function is? The rings are a beautifully multipurpose solution to health, collectibles, and player guidance through the vast, interconnected, secret-filled levels.
Because collecting them doesn't get you much, and player doesn't need much guidance.

>JUST UR OPINION
And my opinion is right since unlike you I'm making deductions here, like the above.

>>376171916
Speed is relative. If you are just zooming past things that don't affect you then the overall effect is to diminish that speed. Whereas if you are constantly dealing with endless challenges then it will feel fast.

>>376172007
You've hit the nail on the head, Tails and Knuckles purpose is exploration. I already said that 3K is best at this element out of the series. But I still don't think the exploration is particularly gratifying.. alternate routes and extra items aren't worthwhile if the core game isn't demanding enough to make you desire them.

>>376172118
Racing games are more nuanced than merely straight line routes with occasional turns. The whole tracks are usually full of a spectrum of turning, not to mention competitors, weapons, pitfalls, etc. Racing isn't the same concept as a speed-platformer anyhow. If there is little to platform then your speed becomes meaningless, the great player is not much faster than the average player.


Just look at this:
>>376168164

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QTjqmh4Sn4

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>>376144343
It's 2D

I wish I never lost my sonic 3 & knuckles PC game, it was my favorite.

>>376144343
Ah my favorite game of all time.
It still has flaws, though.

>Sonic 3 Act 1 boss music is replaced by the S&K version. Same goes for the title screen / invincibility.
>That fucking sound effect for the doors slowly closing in Sandopolis Act 2.
>The auto scrolling section before the Lava Reef boss.
>Uneven difficulty curve as a result of being split into 2 games.
>Too many bosses where you just wait for them to kill themselves.
>Death Egg should be the hardest level in the game, but it's not.
>Sonic's slightly derpier running animation.
>Competition mode is inferior to Sonic 2's.

>>376171253
Did you know you can push some sets of spikes in Flying Battery?

>>376150208
Hopefully, but probably not, only because of the inclusion of classic levels.

>>376171741
Honestly though, how many notable hacks does S3&K have compared to the other games? Off the top of my head I can only recall Sonic 3 Complete and Sonic 3 & Amy Rose.

>>376173163
He asked for a flaw.

>>376171452
>>376171741
>>376173379
Don't you guys see not being oversaturated is a good thing? Most mario world hacks are just cash-ins on the kaizo mario craze.

I find 3&K too long whereas Sonic 2 is much more fun in short bursts.

>>376173245
>Did you know you can push some sets of spikes in Flying Battery?
Ye, one of them leads to a Special Stage right?

>>376173028
ye

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>>376173521
Thats the biggest glaring flaw there is anon

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>>376173645
A positive is "the biggest glaring flaw"?

>>376173523
You know, there's a happy middle ground between having very few hacks and being "oversaturated" or whatever.

>>376173645
Oh no, it's a boostfag who got lost from his tard handler.

>>376173028
https://tcrf.net/Bugs:Sonic_the_Hedgehog_3#Music_Glitch

>>376173086
>Because collecting them doesn't get you much, and player doesn't need much guidance.
Get you much what? And who made you the arbiter of the amount of guidance hypothetical players hypothetically need?

>>376173086
>my opinion is right
>my opinion
>is right

>>376173086
>>376173086
>Speed is relative. If you are just zooming past things that don't affect you then the overall effect is to diminish that speed. Whereas if you are constantly dealing with endless challenges then it will feel fast.
>motion is stillness
>excitement is boredom
>difficulty is speed
Whatever. You just sped past the event horizon of nonsense.

>>376173086
>But I still don't think the exploration is particularly gratifying..
What could you possibly know about the potential limits of the game's capacity to facilitate exploration gratification when, by your own admission, you stubbornly refuse to take advantage of any of the game's many enthusiast modes of play that not only involve exploration but also make it worthwhile? You don't even know or believe the game accords you this option. It's not the game's fault you don't give a shit.

>>376173086
>the great player is not much faster than the average player.
Now that difference is relative.

I don't know why you're describing racing games to me. Your assertion was the fundamentally flawed nature of the presence of interruptions in speed, as such, in general.

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>>376173935
>boostfag
Nope try again

>>376173625
Yosh

>>376154432
I hope you mean BOOMER

>>376162739
It takes more than a second to find Sonic in this picture so no
I need to see him right away when I'm playing or how am I gonna play?

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>>376174119
Sonic Labyrinth fucks, I SWEAR TO GOD!

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>>376174119
Oh God, even worse, it's an Adventurecuck.

>>376174692
>not being a 3D Blastfag

>>376172636
It doesn't, but it's the only lead you have.

Whilst the barrel is still bobbing, you won't see that pressing Up and Down make it move. The initial influence is minimals, there are no command prompts, and there is never any kind of training through gameplay to suggest you can do this. Not a single other object in the game is operated by pressing Up either. The pulleys in Mushroom Hill Zone later on, sure you press down on them, but when you're using that you are in a locked-in state where you can only press directions, or jump off.

The only lead you have is that jumping seems to make it move, and it just seems really, REALLY difficult, but possible to do it that way.

>>376169036
How the fuck is that route accessible only to tails? There's a lightning shield right in front of it.

I've definitely found it by accident as hyper sonic, I remember panicking and double-jumping out of that pit before the lamppost

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>>376174724
>*clicks tounge and snaps finger*

>>376174991
The exit part of the route can only be safely escaped by Tails. The lightning shield's double jump isn't enough to get up out of the pit.

>>376175078
I'm confused because I definitely remember coming out of that pit (maybe it was with tails who knows) but I absolutely don't remember the conveyor belt platform in a room by itself. Maybe I never actually found that route?

>>376173523
Mario World hacks are in a better state they've ever been in. All the saturation has been ebbed out by Mario Maker. All the kids are kept busy with that trashy anime game.

>>376174991
>>376175078
Just checked for y'all. Yeah, it's possible to get into that path using the lightning shield. Kind of a big oversight since like anon said, Sonic can't get out even if you keep the shield, since the shield's double jump doesn't reach. You can escape with Hyper Sonic, though (you have to double jump from the exit to the electric platform directly above).

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>>376144343
It's ok but I still prefer 2.

>>376144928

Any other reasons?

>>376144343
It's a Sonic game.

>>376176385
Yes and?

>>376144343
some of the bosses aren't very good like flying battery and lava reef act 2

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>>376172403

Literally get good.


Sonic 3 & Knuckles - Marble Garden - lazy speedrun

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svQL9HFJ6Z8

Sonic 3 / Hydrocity Glitchless Records [Non-TAS]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pTEfOvtFhE

>>376166984
fuck you bithc ass niqqa fuck you fuckj you fuck you

>>376164973
My man, The thing you have to learn in Sonic games is the stages, then you can speedrun them and enjoy the sense of speed that the game can offer that way, that is the best thing about S3&K