i think we can come to a consensus /v/.

Gone Home has no cutscenes

Checkmate leafposter

wait do people think ludonarrative is something like call of duty 4 where there are literally no cutscenes or do they mean like mass effect where all the gameplay elements are rooted in the story and lore of the universe it's in

>>376074903

Gone Home is nothing but one giant cutscene that you can technically interact with. It's like saying a quick time event is gameplay.

>>376074943

IMO the best narrative is something like Super metroid, where there's no cutscenes during gameplay, and the story is entirely dependent on how you progress through the game.

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>>376074805
Does metroid prime not qualify for the kino tier since it has walls of text explaining the lore? I think the main story it directly told to you through text.

>>376074805
>The cutscene it's the game, the cinematic changes depending on your actions
Mind-blowing

>>376074805
Games like Deus Ex and New Vegas have tons of cutscenes but still have great gameplay and better written stories than something like Souls or Metroid.

Top tier: game where you have to watch a 3 season tv series to understand the plot

>>376075176
>where there's no cutscenes during gameplay
Yeah man, just like that gameplay segment where baby metroid fights the mother brain to defend you. Not a cutscene at all.

But I can already guess who you are by these posts alone, so keep on trucking you fag.

>>376074805
I think it can be agreed that you're a faggot for using fixed lengths of time instead of relating it to the length of the game

>>376075295

Scannable lore doesn't really count as cutscenes because they're so optional that you actively have to seek them out. If they were forced on you and you had to skip them every time they popped up, they'd be barred from kino tier.

>>376075640

>Yeah man, just like that gameplay segment where baby metroid fights the mother brain to defend you. Not a cutscene at all.
I said during gameplay. Obviously there will be one during the end and the intro cutscene. I'd personally vouch for removing them to improve the experience, but what can you do?

>>376074805
>>376074805
>>376074805
>>376074805

Alpha Centuri is the one of the greatest games of all time. It has an amazing narrative that is primarily told through the gameplay, with the brilliant writing and dialogue being greatly complementing but not the focus of the game
If only modern games didn't spoil me on good UI, I would still be playing it

>>376075701

No matter how much gameplay you have, you shouldn't need more than an hour of story. If you have more stupid lore to put out, put it in the instruction manual.

>>376074805
Fuck off ACfag

>cutscenes if you can skip them
>a problem

no, the real problem is sections where you walk down a corridor with the characters spitting expository dialogue at you

>>376075790
You are fucking stupid.

Dwarf Fortress goes beyond all that.

>>376075295
what the hell did that guy think that is was going to happen?

>>376075878

>no, the real problem is sections where you walk down a corridor with the characters spitting expository dialogue at you
And you imply that 99% of AAA games aren't this in a nutshell?

>>376074805
Cutscenes>In game exposition dumps

For most games, the last one will be done by you walking down a hall way or listening to a radio during gameplay. I would rather have cut scenes

>>376076110

How about having neither?

No.
Mgs4 is one of the weakest in the series and still probably better than 95% of the trash nostalgia bait shit you play through OP

>>376076298

>MGS4
You mean that movie that Kojima made with sony? What does that have to do with this videogame discussion?

>>376076209
Play Tetris. Games without context are shit.

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>>376076475

>Tetris is shit
>pac-man is shit
>Mario is shit

You are a funny fella.

>>376076209
Extremely difficult and for most games will mean either no context or incredibly vague and shitty ones. Story-telling and narrative are important to games as well, it's like playing a game with shitty music or art style

>>376074805
> No story
> Plot being told

You people are fucking retarded

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>>376076843
>>376077085

>Story-telling and narrative are important to games as well,
>a game needs high end graphics and music and "realistic physics" to be good
Hello.

>>376076706
Those games aren't shit, but they aren't fun to play for more than 5 mintutes. If a game has no context, there's really no need to continue playing when you could be playing a better game with actual story/characters. Games like Bayo have better gameplay than Armored Core while still having interesting plot ACfag.

>>376077190
The point I was making is that a plot cannot be told if there is no story, because if a plot was told then there is a story.

Again, you people are fucking retarded.

Any actual arguement I ever hear about this boils down to "stop liking things I don't like" and the much more annoying condescending tone of holding a strict definition of what a videogames are as if being dubbed a videogame is the highest honour and Shakespeare can fuck himself since hamlet wasn't interactive enough.

It's a stupie arguement of semantics.
Take this meme for example
>>376076386
While mgs4 has more quality gameplay then most games. This guy will some how berate it for lots of cutscenes. But he can't actually attack it's quality as a interactive experience. I don't care about your definition of game. I care about if it's good or not. Call it a game, movie, book, tv show, interactive experience, walking simulator. Those are just for categorizing not discussing quality.

Most people complaining about stories in vidya are filthy casuals anyway. Most people who don't like it realize there are still more games without it them ever before. It's just casuals who don't know about anything other than uncharted or whatever major blockbuster is popular.

>>376074805
Yeah! Inside is the greatest game of all time!

>>376074805
>Shitting on Ace Combat cutscenes

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>>376074805
>game completely without plot

>>376075539
>tv series is only sold with the definitive collectors goty supreme edition of the game

>>376077360

>but they aren't fun to play for more than 5 mintutes
I assume that is because there is not enough tits and violence and explosions? Simple but hard to master gameplay elements seem to have fallen out of favor in this generation of Call of Duty and instant gratification mobile phone games.

>there's really no need to continue playing when you could be playing a better game with actual story/characters
Assuming one even likes the story, then how does that help with replayability? Once you know the story, the game loses 80% of its appeal. Probably should've invested more in the gameplay.

>Games like Bayo have better gameplay than Armored Core while still having interesting plot ACfag.
The metacritic scores would argue otherwise.

>>376076020
Setting yourself on fire was, I shit you not, some stupid internet challenge people used to do as a joke.

>>376077360
>>376076706
The only way a game can be fun without narrative for more than 5 minutes of idle amusement is if it's competitive. This isn't even vidya exclusive. Look at chess, sports etc. All fun because of the interaction with other humans competition and strategizing this brings forward. Even pool i play alot by myself. It's not really fun that way it's just practising for when i do get to play with people. It's the same with vidya, tetris saw a rebirth when they made competitive game modes.
A single player game without any narrative is like a movie with just action sequences. It can't keep a human engaged. There needs to be a human element, either inserted through narrative, or physically present in the form of another player to engage humans

>>376077401

There's a difference between a plot being shoved in through cutscenes, and one extremely subtle in the background. I should've clarified.

>>376077471

>While mgs4 has more quality gameplay then most games
Then why does the gameplay completely become ruined if the story was removed. Every fan swears by the story only, and that the "problematic videogamey content" (quoted from /vg/) only gets in the way.

>>376077756
i eagerly await the meme that will end humanity to be honest desu

Who cares. Just play whatever the fuck type of game you want.

>>376074805
Bitch, get on my level.
I don't even know who Yar is.
Is the villain Yar?
Am I Yar?
What is Yar getting revenge for?
IT DOESN'T MATTER.

Ever seen the cart for Super Breakout?
There's an astronaut on the cover.
WHY IS AN ASTRONAUT ON THE COVER?
It doesn't matter.

>>376077768

>The only way a game can be fun without narrative for more than 5 minutes of idle amusement is if it's competitive.
Have you guys ever played a shmup outside of touhou?

>>376077909
Give it a few more years till killing yourself instantly on Instagram becomes the hot new thing. Just a matter of time.

>>376077768
So you're saying Bomberman, Gradius, Galaga, Space invader, super mario bros, kirby are shit?

>>376077756
>getting morons to light themselves on fire
Sounds like some fake challenge /b/ came up with and convinced people it was real

>>376077190
>implying graphics=art style
how can you not understand those aren't the same thing? there is a hell of a lot more work put into designing the atheistic of a game than just making the graphics shiny. the same could be said for music, there's a reason people still remember shit the original zelda or megaman theme

Going back to my point, it's a extremely difficult to tell a story without exposition. Trying to eliminate cutscenes serves no purpose, as they will find a more frustrating way to get the information to you. Interweaving story and gameplay leads to far more enjoyable experiences

>>376078001
if has a scoring system so it's competitive

i win

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>>376074805
You forgot the Elder Celestial tier
>Playing games solely for gameplay

>>376077862

>Then why does the gameplay completely become ruined if the story was removed.
It doesn't in the slightest most fans feel thid way. Many fans don't even care about the story. The series is known for some of the best gameplay of all time. But you will just believe what you want quoting random anecdotes and trolling /vg/ users to fit your narrative so debating you is pointless ACfag.
So you win. One of the best experiences I've had is shit because narratives are inheritantly bad and my opinion that the gameplay is amazing is wrong because cutscenes magically hurt gameplay through some abstract way.
>>376078026
Bomberman is fun with friends.
Otherwise yes. I would argue mario has some narrative and story. Enough to engage some people. I mean i play minesweeper on my commutr sometimes it's fun i guess. But it doesn't actually keep me engaged. I'm not gonna sit down after a long day at work crack a beer and say "man i really wanna play some minesweeper." and then go discuss it with my buddies later.

>>376078139

So I expect to see Ikaruga at next year's Evo?

>>376078097

>how can you not understand those aren't the same thing?
For all tents and porpoises, they're the same thing. A game with a good, moderate graphical artstyle is objectively better than anything realistic, or high budget. It ages better, it costs less, and it makes your game stand out. Music can also help a game, but for a fantastic game music isn't absolutely vital to the experience. Take Punch out for instance. It had a catchy tune during fights, but that didn't make the arcade version any worse.

>Going back to my point, it's a extremely difficult to tell a story without exposition.
That's poppycock. Mario's been doing a damn fine job of it for 30 years.

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>>376074805
fixed

>>376078574
but 0 is under 3 and 60

>>376078405

>It doesn't in the slightest most fans feel thid way. Many fans don't even care about the story.
So I ask you, why not remove the story and re-purpose the budget to pay the game developers more? Tell the voice actors to go screw themselves, throw Kojima in a closet and keep him away from any scriptwriting, and have the main plot be something simple like a bad guy trying to take over the world. No complex garbage or plot twists or cringeworthy drama. Boom, several hundred billion dollars saved right there.

>my opinion that the gameplay is amazing is wrong because cutscenes magically hurt gameplay through some abstract way.
You are arguing that the gameplay is fantastic even without the story. That's fine. However, you are also arguing that you cannot remove the story otherwise it ruins the game. That is not fine. So either the gameplay is fine without the story, in which case the game is being wasteful by spending my time and money on excess fluff, or the story is absolutely necessary to keep the game from falling apart, in which case you've made a bad game. There's no middleground here, like "oh both are good but it accentuates the game" or some hippy nonsense. If the game was fun, you wouldn't need additional incentive to play it.

>>376077694
>I assume that is because there is not enough tits and violence and explosions?
Strawman like usual from you.

>Simple but hard to master gameplay elements seem to have fallen out of favor in this generation of Call of Duty and instant gratification mobile phone games.
You're right, but nothing to do with what I'm talking about

>Assuming one even likes the story, then how does that help with replayability? Once you know the story, the game loses 80% of its appeal. Probably should've invested more in the gameplay.
False. alternative ending, different routes, etc. Games that have lots of story have more reason to reply. Deus Ex come to mind.

>the metacritic scores would argue otherwise
Knew you would say this. Only reason I said it because I saw you do it in other thread. Show me RE4 and MGS2 vs Armored shit.

>>376078405
>Thinking the original bomberman could be played with friends
That explains so much, I'm so sorry for you.

>>376078005
They do it so they can read the reactions and the attention, killing themselves would be counterproductive

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>>376078768

>Strawman like usual from you.
I'm not seeing what argument that you're presenting. If they weren't good, then why are they considered timeless classics? Meanwhile, your average cinematic experience like Uncharted and TLOU is quickly forgotten to the tides of time.

>False. alternative ending, different routes, etc.
And what good is any of this without good gameplay? Worse yet, why would I want an alternate ending if I have to dredge through the same 200 cutscenes all over again? I'm seriously getting Undertale flashbacks, where I have to grind and kill everyone just for the pretentious genocide ending and how I have to "check my privilege" because I killed pixels. nothing kills a boner faster than poor gameplay and story conflict.

>Show me RE4 and MGS2 vs Armored shit.
With pleasure.

>>376078809
.
Hey anon. Maybe take off your nostalgia goggles. They have made more than one bomberman in the time you were being bitter other typed of gamea re allowed to exist. There is a brand new one infact. But i imagine you are to busy throwing a shitfit about people liking uncharted or whatever to actually play it.
>>376078748
>why not xxx.
Because the story is also good.
Same reason i go to a steak house for a steak and still order a salad beer and dessert. Because i don't have to limit myself. And "repurposing budgets" doesn't work how you think. If they spent all the extra money on gameplay they couldn't make it any better. Hell only worse by adding unesesary mechanics and over complexifying it.

>you are saying you can not remove the story or it ruins the game.
Nope never said that. Nice strawman. It's great that way as well. Many people with add and functional start buttons played that way and enjoyed it.
>there is no middle ground.
For some arbitrary reason you can't explain other than because you don't like story in vidya or whatever. There are tonnes of games that fit this middleground. Not to mention how pathetic you are thinking "they don't need to further incentivize you to play it" as if the minimum required effort to get me to buy it is all anyone should ever strive for.

>>376080006
Or maybe you could stop being a complete retard.
Why the fuck would I talk about multiplayer bomberman games when we're talking about singleplayer games?

>>376080234
Well you asked if i liked bomberman. I said the multiplayer ones then you threw a shitfit.

>>376080006

>Because the story is also good.
It's a videogame story, that's pretty much wrong by default.

>Same reason i go to a steak house
Holy crap, can /v/ not go 5 seconds without a bloody food analogy? Besides which, your analogy doesn't even work, because when you go to a steak place, you can choose to pay only for the steak, avoiding the beer and dessert entirely. With a game, I have to have the story shoved down my throat, and it takes a chunk out of my wallet.

>If they spent all the extra money on gameplay they couldn't make it any better.
That's blatantly wrong. Any game can be improved. See: Dwarf Fortress, Terraria, minecraft, any game with free DLC, and so on.

>Nope never said that.
Then what is the problem with ripping out all of the story? Surely the game can handle itself, right?

>Not to mention how pathetic you are thinking "they don't need to further incentivize you to play it" as if the minimum required effort to get me to buy it is all anyone should ever strive for
It's considered the bare minimum to have gameplay? Boy, I can't agree. My bare minimum with a game is to have FANTASTIC gameplay. You can slack on the graphics and the story and the music all you want, just give me something that plays amazing. But game devs don't do that. Games will run at sub-20 FPS to achieve that photo-realistic HD bloom lighting, they'll sacrifice game length because they need to make large open sandboxes, they need to cut back on Q+A and bugtesting because voice actors stripped their budget clean. Doesn't sound good, now does it?

>>376080549
.
>It's a videogame story, that's pretty much wrong by default.
What a great arbitrary distinction.
>>Same reason i go to a steak house
>I have to have the story shoved down my throat, and it takes a chunk out of my wallet.
I was unaware you didn't have a functioning start or "options" button on any of your controllers. My bad.

>That's blatantly wrong. Any game can be improved. See: Dwarf Fortress, Terraria, minecraft, any game with free DLC, and so on.
Budget for metal gear solid. Minus anything cutscene or story related is already bigger than any of that combined. That helps my point. Money opens doors, but it doesn't just magically pump in to content. And certain things only cost so much overpaying doesn't solve anything. Not to mention dimishing returns etc.

>Then what is the problem with ripping out all of the story? Surely the game can handle itself, right?
This is the same flawed logic you always use. I would buy every single mgs game (except the shitty psp ones) on gameplay alone and enjoy them. And i would also buy a metal gear solid movie. Your logic is i don't need a nice car, so why buy one? Food is more important to survival therefore cars are bad and i shouldn't use one. It's an absurd non sequitor. Needs and benefits frombare different. And some games, like the game i am going to go play instead of having this pointlesa discussion literally do NEED the narrative. Persona 5 which i am going to play after posting this instead of continuing this stupid discussion with you acfag, would be mediocre at best without the strong character writing. So what? It's still amazing. I love a lot of films and they have no gameplay at all! Hell sometimes i even read. It's dependent on X doesn't some how make it bad. It would be shit if i didn't have a tv as well. So what? I have one.

>>376079368
>I'm not seeing what argument that you're presenting
Games without context aren't worth playing compare to games with context. Never said those games are shit. You won't be playing Pac-Man all your life. But you will be playing AC, a game with context, story/characters.

>And what good is any of this without good gameplay?
Literally posted a game with good gameplay and great story. All the games from that series would do.

>Worse yet, why would I want an alternate ending if I have to dredge through the same 200 cutscenes all over again
Skip them.

That picture proves my point. RE4 is a well regarded around the world as a timeless classic. Games like Bayo 2 has some of the best gameplay in the action genre, while AC is forgotten and never discussed because the gameplay isn't complex in the slightest. Then again you think Souls is worse than AC so I know there's no helping you.

>>376081476

>I was unaware you didn't have a functioning start or "options" button on any of your controllers. My bad.
Do i have a "skip paying for the cutscenes" button?

>Budget for metal gear solid. Minus anything cutscene or story related is already bigger than any of that combined.
And whose fault is that for wasting money on unnecessary garbage?

>I would buy every single mgs game (except the shitty psp ones) on gameplay alone and enjoy them
So why can't I dislike them for having too much story? the story is garbage that's getting between me and the gameplay. And with MGSIV, I can't just skip the cutscenes. I have to suffer a 50 hour load time, not including the download and installation process. but hey, had to get those realistic graphics in.

>Persona 5 which i am going to play after posting this instead of continuing this stupid discussion with you acfag, would be mediocre at best without the strong character writing
And right here you imply that Persona 5 would somehow NOT be mediocre even with the strong character writing. That story nonsense isn't magically making the gameplay better. It's doing nothing more than masking the scent, not cleaning the mess.

>>376081609

>Games without context aren't worth playing compare to games with context.
That's absurd. People will be playing Super metroid for years, while The Order 1886 and Gone Home are already forgotten relics.

>But you will be playing AC, a game with context, story/characters.
lol are you kidding? The series has a plot on par with Mario. Your main character doesn't even say a single word, and theres no character development whatsoever. Infact, the first Armored Core barely had 5 minutes of cutscenes, which included all dialogue in and out of missions. And it's still enjoyed to this day because it didn't need a cinematic crutch.

>Literally posted a game with good gameplay and great story.
I hope you're not implying MGS there, mate. A story that tries way too hard to be edgy with vagina bombs and rape and graphical murder can't be good in the slightest. It screams pretentiousness and an attempt to be tryhard.

>Skip them.
I can't skip paying for them.

>RE4 is a well regarded around the world as a timeless classic. Games like Bayo 2 has some of the best gameplay in the action genre,
Yes, by game journalists like Jim Sterling. AKA Mr. "gameplay is problematic".

>>376082431
>i can't skip paying for them.
You can just not buy the game.
I find it hilarious though that you think getting rid of the story would make the games cheaper it wouldn't. They would cost more based on sales lost. Vidya is cheaper than it had ever been. Even in your fabricated glory days.
Your arguement is basically games shouldn't have story because you don't like story.
When people say you can skip it you say you can't skip paying for it.
But you literally do. Game development ia a fixed cost. The story aspects may costs idk let's say$40 million extra, but it generates $50mil+ in sales so realistically they are paying for you. You say the money could be better spent on gameplay. Let's pretend sales weren't a thing. It still couldn't tou don't actually delve into any nitty gritty just some vague concept of "gameplay" that games you enjoy spent pennies on compared to the games you hate.
It all boila down to stop liking things i don't like.

>>376083284

>You can just not buy the game.
I do that plenty of times. But that shouldn't stop criticism of the games I've already played, or future installments that follow the same formulas.

>I find it hilarious though that you think getting rid of the story would make the games cheaper it wouldn't.
How wouldn't it? Not everything needs Nolan North and Tara Strong voice acting every line.

>They would cost more based on sales lost.
Why would someone buy a video GAME, and then refuse to play the game because it doesn't have enough story?If the game is fun, surely they'd still love to enjoy the gameplay, right? If these people only care about story, they shouldn't be your audience anyway.

>But you literally do. Game development ia a fixed cost
Which gets lower the less money you waste. A game like, oh say, Terraria costs not even a fraction of the cost of a game like Final Fantasy XV. Notice how one of those games is putrid garbage with 200+ dollars of DLC and season passes, while the other is a finely polished video game experience with free DLC that's constantly dropped since 2011?

Tell me, ACfag, how do you manage to play even a single fucking game when you're shitposting on /v/ like 24/7? Isn't shitposting literally pointless cutscenes in between the precious game-playing time? Or are you just a giant faggot hypocrite?

>>376074943
>call of duty 4 where there are literally no cutscenes
Putting the cutscenes on the loading screen doesn't stop them from being cutscenes.

>>376083759

>>You can just not buy the game.
>I do that plenty of times. But that shouldn't stop criticism of the games I've already played, or future installments that follow the same formulas.
Sure but why pay for shit you don't like.
I think nostalgia bait is shit so i don't buy it. I think uncharted is shit for probably similar reasons then you i just don't buy it.

>How wouldn't it? Not everything needs Nolan North and Tara Strong voice acting every line.
Because, as I already explained games have a fixed cost to development. These things increase sales. The higher the projected sales the cheaper the game can be. It's not rocket science. If they made games specifically for acfag you'd be paying around $80-100 a game. These literally save you money
.
>Why would someone buy a video GAME, and then refuse to play the game because it doesn't have enough story?
Because they want to?
>If the game is fun, surely they'd still love to enjoy the gameplay, right?
Different strokes for different folks
>If these people only care about story, they shouldn't be your audience anyway.
Well this is just pure autism. You remind me of those stupid indie devs "IF YOU VOTED DONALD TRUMP DON'T BUY MY GAME" there money is fucking green isn't it? Yoy seriously think they care more about your money than that of some guy you think has bad taste? They make the games they want to sell to whoever will buy it.

>Which gets lower the less money you waste.
It's not wasted money, it clearly generates sales.
>A game like, oh say, Terraria costs not even a fraction of the cost of a game like Final Fantasy XV. Notice how one of those games is putrid garbage with 200+ dollars of DLC and season passes, while the other is a finely polished video game experience with free DLC that's constantly dropped since 2011?
Now you are contradicting yourself.
Which is it? Low budget games are better, or AAA devs aren't spending enough on gameplay?
>>376084249
He doesn't actually playgames.

>Bottom section in OP's image
Don't tell me Half-Life 2 fits in that category.

>>376084446

>Sure but why pay for shit you don't like.
Since the advent of 2012 or so, I've just stopped buying movie games period. I mooch off of my comrades who take breaks from being in the air force and being overseas and just play the games on their systems. How unfortunate that they enjoy the FIFAs and Call of Duty's, but to be honest I think I'd prefer that over them being Calarts numale hipsters. So it's the lesser of the evils.

>Because, as I already explained games have a fixed cost to development. These things increase sales.
Then why is it that a simple game like Minecraft, devoid of story and graphics and voice acting, managed to make a single autistic swedish man more money than entire countries make in their gross domestic profit margins? How did Minecraft manage to sell 150 million copies worldwide with a price tag of 26 dollars? And despite the memes and Notch completely screwuping up late game development, I'll never look badly on the game solely because of the enjoyment I, and many other anons had, back in alpha development. I acknowledge its myriad of flaws and issues, but because it wants to be a video game first, I gladly give it some slack.

>Different strokes for different folks
Sounds like these people don't love gameplay enough.

>there money is fucking green isn't it? Yoy seriously think they care more about your money than that of some guy you think has bad taste?
This is why various devs are going into the red, because they put their money on unstable gaming audiences. It's also why I'm not surprised that Nintendo continues to make bank. Even though I dislike their current roster of upcoming games, they know their audience and make simple, gameplay-oriented games, minus a few really bad stinkers. Meanwhile, Square can't even recoup the financial losses from FFXV, Sony's having a hard time selling Horizon and Uncharted because the development costs barely got paid off by the sales, and Microsoft is just floundering hilariously.

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>>376075176

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>>376074805

I can dig it.

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>>376084446

>Which is it? Low budget games are better, or AAA devs aren't spending enough on gameplay?
Low budget implies that they don't have time to screw around or waste money, so all of it needs to go to the gameplay. AAA devs, despite having a higher budget, spend even less on gameplay than an indie game with barely a penny to his name. Here, I'll illustrate with an image.

>>376085069

>>.
>Then why is it that a simple game like Minecraft, devoid of story and graphics and voice acting, managed to make a single autistic swedish man more money than entire countries make in their gross domestic profit margins?
It's almost like the industry is large enough for many different types of games for many different types of audiences!

>Sounds like these people don't love gameplay enough.
Yes those fucking losers with their bad opinions, out there liking things i don't like.

>This is why various devs are going into the red, because they put their money on unstable gaming audiences
Kek business is booming.
>It's also why I'm not surprised that Nintendo continues to make bank.
Erm, the nintendo ia dead /going bankrupt meme is pretty stupid, but they hardly pull sony cinematic movie numbers.
>Sony's having a hard time selling Horizon and Uncharted
Sony's games division is booming and carrying the company. Uncharted is one of the best selling games this gen, Horizon wold tremendously for new IP going up against zepda and sony doesn't make games to profit they make games to get people invested in their ecosystem. And it works well considering the sales advantage they have
>Microsocrosoft is just floundering hilariously.
Wrong again. They are doing brilliantly. The industry as a whole is doing well. I don't honestly think you believe this though. The way you attack new trends/people with different taste. You seem more insecure that story driven adventures are taking over and you just want pacman. In reality there are more games up your alley (nostalgia bait as I call them) being made these days than ever before as well. So don't be scared. There is room in this industry for everyone.
>>376085663
This factually incorrect. And "gameplay" isn't just a pit you throw money into. But AAAs throw more money into wngine development then indies do on their entire games.

>>376082431
>People will be playing Super metroid for years
Has context and story.

>while The Order 1886 and Gone Home are already forgotten relics.
Strawman like usual.

lol are you kidding? The series has a plot on par with Mario. Your main character doesn't even say a single word, and theres no character development whatsoever. Infact, the first Armored Core barely had 5 minutes of cutscenes, which included all dialogue in and out of missions. And it's still enjoyed to this day because it didn't need a cinematic crutch.
Still has a story/plot, narrative, and context.

>I hope you're not implying MGS there, mate. A story that tries way too hard to be edgy with vagina bombs and rape and graphical murder can't be good in the slightest. It screams pretentiousness and an attempt to be tryhard
Strawman like usual. Learn to read and stop arbitrarily skipping parts of posts you don't like usual

>I can't skip paying for them.
????

>yes, by game journalists like Jim Sterling. AKA Mr. "gameplay is problematic"
No, by the gaming community. Why are you the one to have the final say on games when you act AC is the pinnacle of game design when it isn't doesn't even come close to Souls? You saying that RE4 isn't a timeless classic, doesn't mean it isn't a timeless classic and consider one of the best games ever made.

>>376086232
I always thought we called him ACfag for assassin's creed kek. Like cause he must fucking hate AC like Barneyfag hates barney.
Now i can really trigger him.
You know the best mech game of all time ACfag?
Zone of Enders by Kojima Productions.

>>376075176

Super Metroid has several cutscenes

>>376085858

>It's almost like the industry is large enough for many different types of games for many different types of audiences!
Of course. However, Minecraft proves that a purely gameplay experience can not only thrive, but dominate in an industry like this. And the gameplay was rather simplistic, so imagine something with more power behind it, more time to improve the game mechanics. Terraria is actually a nice little success story there, having sold 20 million last I recall. So that's about 100 million gross profit at least from a small ten dollar game, not counting merchandise, tie-in deals, promotional giveaways, and etc. It's of course subtracting steam fees, porting costs, the monthly sales where the game price drops, and etc. but think, that's more profit than a good chunk of Nintendo games even,matched only by the billions made by Zelda and Mario. Not bad for an up and coming company whose lead dev started out making Mario romhacks.

>Yes those fucking losers with their bad opinions, out there liking things i don't like.
I don't chastise them with the intent to be mean, I'm simply pointing out the logical fallacy wherein you buy a video game for anything but the gameplay.

>Kek business is booming.
Only for people like RE-Logic, or Yacht Club, or Nintendo. Companies like sony are hemorrhaging money, only being saved by their game divisions, which are starting to bleed money thanks to lawsuits and other issues. You don't get to lose people's private security info 5 times in row without consequences.

>they hardly pull sony cinematic movie numbers.
Oh, you must be mistaken. Did you see the 100% attach rate for the new Zelda on the Switch? I'm not even a fan of the game, but the amount of money they made on that is staggering. even if I feel like the game is wasteful, their development budget was a fraction of what your average sony cinematic would cost.

>>376085858


>Sony's games division is booming and carrying the company.
Only barely. Horizon had a horrible attachment rate for a system with 60 million users. Uncharted was slightly better, but it's already been forgotten and it's been cucked out of any game awards by other games. Shoot, last couple of years, Bloodborne got the rug pulled out from under it by The Witcher of all games, when it came to those GOTY awards. Naturally I don't listen to game journos and I think they're all idiots, but it's funny that sony can no longer afford to pay for positive press and game awards, at least to the extent they used to.

>Wrong again. They are doing brilliantly.
Considering the lawsuits coming at Windows 10, and the mass cancellations of Xbox one exclusives, you have to wonder how long their money train will last them.

>But AAAs throw more money into wngine development then indies do on their entire games.
That I hardly believe, when most of, if not all, of their games are just modified Unreal 4 engines with some graphical touchups. Of course, it's not like they even utilize them, padding their gmames with cutscenes, quick time events, and scripted segments.

>>376086232

>Has context and story.
It has an intro cutscene. That's it. The rest of the game, bar the ending, is completely free of the cinematic cancer that ruins too many games. I'd like it to be better by streamlining those cinematic segments, but I'm sure that's for another day.

>Still has a story/plot, narrative, and context.
That's just arguing semantics if you ask me. As long as the story isn't the focus, I don't think it would count in this category. And like before, the game isn't perfect, so there's always room for improvement.

>No, by the gaming community.
The same gaming community that gave games like TLOU and Undertale a 90+ score. The same gaming community that gladly excuses bad gameplay as long as there's tits to jerk off to. The same gaming community, one in the same, that will unironically use the term "too videogamey" to negatively describe a video game. If you ask me, the gaming community, or at least the zealous fanboy portion, is no more trustworthy than those dolts at Kotaku.

>>376086583
Minecraft is an online game and not all that Simplistic. It's more like lego than pacman.
>logical fallacy.
Lmao i don't think you understand what that is.
There is no logical fallacy in having different taste. It's not even an arguement. My dad loves quantic dream games because he enjoys the story and interactive method of storytelling. He isn't making a fallacious arguement by having different taste than you or I.
>sony gaming makes more in profit than re-logic or yachtclub do in revenue.
Nintendo just launched a console qnd are barely keeping up with a 3 year old one. I love them but live in reality.
Not to mention at least sony isn't pixel art kickstarter levels of creatively bankrupt.
Attach rate means nothing. Zelda is the only switch game.
>>376086840
>60million PS4 owners
All i needed to read here to see i am right you are wrong.
Also don't know what lawsuit you are referring to, but your an idiot if you think it would do more than make m$ flinch.
>engines.
It's true i don't think tou grasp how expensive game development is. Then companies like EA have their own engine.

>>376086519

Hey, no game's perfect.

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>/v/ still replies to ACFag

>>376087074

>Minecraft is an online game and not all that Simplistic.
Online was an after thought. And yeah, compared to many other open world games, it's really simplistic. Only the enemy AI could be argued as good, because they can logically problem solve in real time, analyzing their environments even as they change.

>There is no logical fallacy in having different taste.
Different taste is fine, but the medium is still about an interactive digital product. If you dont' want to interact with it, then you're objectively in the wrong medium.

>Nintendo just launched a console qnd are barely keeping up with a 3 year old one. I love them but live in reality.
I live in the reality where Nintendo can pump out 5 mobile games can break the market in how much they sell, WHILE making 3 yearly pokemon games, each selling 10 million copies, not of course counting the other billions they make on amiibo sales. Trust me, the "nintendo is doomed" meme was doomed from the start.

>Not to mention at least sony isn't pixel art kickstarter levels of creatively bankrupt.
At least they'd be making games, instead of either rehashing the past or making cinematic experiences.

>Attach rate means nothing. Zelda is the only switch game.
In all fairness, it also has some exclusive games like Bomberman and 1-2-Switch. Not a big fan of them, but they do exist.

>It's true i don't think tou grasp how expensive game development is.
I don't think you grasp how lazy game developers are.

>EA totally made their own engine instead of commencing a corporate buyout of someone else, then firing everyone and holding a monopoly on it

Sure thing. Just like how they didn't do that to Pandemic, or Signosis, or Bioware.

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>>376087062
If a game has a plot, that's context.

>The same gaming community that gave games like TLOU and Undertale a 90+ score
Also gave Souls and Mario 90+

>the same gaming community that gladly excuses bad gameplay as long as there's tits to jerk off to
Most fanservice games get low scores

>the same gaming community, one in the same, that will unironically use the term "too videogamey"
I heard the some term before used a Souls thread because someone didn't want a boss rush mode, as it would ruin their "interactive experience".

It doesn't matter what you say, RE4 is regarded as one of the best games ever made. And like games with little context and actual good gameplay Dark Souls, and Bloodborne are too consider the some of the best games ever made.

>>376087062
>is completely free of the cinematic cancer that ruins too many games.

I recognize this poster

>>376087696
Minecraft ia successful because of online though. It would never have reached anywhere near its success single player.

You interact with any game you are trying to argue against. Even heavy rain. That's still not a logical fallacy either. Try google, Wikipedia or a dictionary.
>instead of rehashing
Buahahahaha
oh God it's funny cause that's the opposite of what is happening.

>>376087873
>some
*same

>>376087480
He made this thread for shitposting. If it was an actual thread I wouldn't bother responding.

>>376087873

>Also gave Souls and Mario 90+
That's why you don't use them as a metric. They're wildly inconsistent.

>Most fanservice games get low scores
I'd believe that if Hyperdimension Neptunia and Extreme Beach Volleyball weren't jerked off as vidya kino.

>RE4 is regarded as one of the best games ever made.
And as long as you use game journos or fanboys as a metric to measure that, then I'll continue considering it untrue.

>>376087997

>Minecraft ia successful because of online though. It would never have reached anywhere near its success single player.
Except at least half of its mod database is singleplayer content, and stuff that breaks online. So at best you could argue it's a 50/50 split. I remember back in alpha, online wasn't even a thing except for an extremely buggy server browser (if you could call it that). Most people just liked sharing their worlds and messing with the generation seed.

>You interact with any game you are trying to argue against. Even heavy rain.
That's only a technicality. It's like saying that DVDs are games because of the menu.

>oh God it's funny cause that's the opposite of what is happening.
Because the Crash N. Sane Trilogy isn't a thing? and just like I, and many others predicted, the game is soulless and devoid of what made the original a classic. How? Well, they focus so much on realism and graphical fidelity that they suck the color and the life out of it, often giving us bland, grey corridors that don't understand color schemes. Best case scenario, it'll be an average imitation of the original.

>awakened 5hours ago
>only done two hours of jap study
FUCKING LAZY RETARD

>>376088331
Literally every game off kickstarter save and except maybe PoE is a shitty knockoff/rehash off a an old game. It's just going after people like you going "REMEBER X GAME, YEAH WE ARE MAKING THAT IN 2017 NEW GAMES SUCK PUBLISHERS R GAY" crash is just a remastered rerelease, like a blu ray of an old movie. Shit like Horizon whether you like it or not is at least a new idea. It's funny that vidya is the opposite of every other sector where aaa is trying fun and new ideas, while indies are juwt recycling what works.

>so is a dvd
You are being obtuse. If you hit two buttons on a dvd it plays a prerenderd film. Heavy rain is rendered in real time and the character literally just stands there if you don't move the stick. You have to move talk to people solve puzzles do qte, interact with enviroment etc. Call it a movie if you want, you'd be wrong, but feel free to satiate your autism. But that doesn't actually mean there is anything wrong with liking it.

>>376088331
>That's why you don't use them as a metric.
You literally do. You literally just posted it.

>I'd believe that if Hyperdimension Neptunia and Extreme Beach Volleyball weren't jerked off as vidya kino
Now I know you're an alien. We don't even live on the same plant

>and as long as you use game journos or fanboys as a metric to measure that, then I'll continue considering it untrue
You keep saying it's bad doesn't make it. The person who reviewed the TLOU isnt the same guy who reviewed RE4 on IGN. RE4's gunplay and level design is phenomenal like REmake or 7. There is a reason these games are well regarded around the world.

>>376088901

>Literally every game off kickstarter save and except maybe PoE is a shitty knockoff/rehash off a an old game.
The difference is that the good games will take what old games did and polish it at the least, while Sony is literally doing nothing but giving Crash a graphical makeover.

>Shit like Horizon whether you like it or not is at least a new idea
>AAA is trying fun and new ideas

Yeah, cinematic experiences are totally fun and new ideas. Gotcha comrade.

>Heavy rain is rendered in real time and the character literally just stands there if you don't move the stick.
Heavy Rain is such a bad example because half the time your inputs mean nothing and the game will continue on without it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efZ0n2jpPJw

>>376088983

>You literally do. You literally just posted it.
Let me clarify: you don't use them as a metric as if they were right. You use them as a guide to know what's bad or not. Think of it like using them in the inverse method. For example, if Jim Sterling likes a game, then it's clearly a bad game, or not worth the praise. Why? Well, I say it multiple times above, he's paid to like games, so higher scores mean more money.

>Now I know you're an alien. We don't even live on the same plant
So you deny that people constantly jerk these games off as amazing?

>The person who reviewed the TLOU isnt the same guy who reviewed RE4 on IGN.
Like I say above, they're the same kind of reptilian aliens who don't care about gameplay and can't even grasp it. Pay them enough money, or deny them enough early access to up and coming AAA games, and they'll sing whatever tune you ask of them.

>>376089616
I'd rathet have a classic get a visual upgrade and stay as accurate to the orignal as possible.
It's likebthe spaghetti westerns were great films and it's great they got a blu ray treatment. But I'd rather not a bunch of retards crowd fund trying to shoot the same movie again. What's the point? I love crash, so I'm happy it's getting a visual upgrade to bring it into the modern day. But look at shit like yooka laylee. The hd remaster of banjo was 100x more useful. Because these hacks just made a shitty version of banjoo, all this time ajd effort and I'd rather just play banjo.
Realistically there is more variety between. "Cinematic" experiences than there is indie trash by a mile. Catherine is one of my favourite games because of how bizarre and unique it is.

As for heavy rain he is moving the character in your clip. Again you still can't find a single thing wronf with liking it or how liking it is a "logical fallacy" just clinging to pretending not to be able to tell the difference between an interactive experience and a film

>>376074805
Grow up, it's time to grow up.

The "story doesn't matter" phase is just pathetic, you are like edgy communist teens.

>>376074805
Half-Life is the best game of all time, then

>>376074805
A good story can’t salvage bad gameplay.
Good gameplay can salvage a bad story.
This fact alone is all one need to know to see the objective Truth.
i.e. if you want a story go read a book nigger

>>376078432
>So I expect to see Ikaruga at next year's Evo?

Nice goalpost shifting.

>>376090007

>I'd rathet have a classic get a visual upgrade and stay as accurate to the orignal as possible.
But what is the point? The only real use is that it's being ported to modern systems, but the original crash is already available, so unless they're improving the gameplay, why bother?

>But look at shit like yooka laylee. The hd remaster of banjo was 100x more useful.
That was because Yooka laylee was trash to begin with. Nothing could've saved that. Now, Shovel Knight is a proper retro game. It evokes Ducktales and early Mario, and thanks to its low graphic setting, it allows for better gameplay optimization. Less money spent on polygons and fixing HD realistic lighting.

>Realistically there is more variety between. "Cinematic" experiences than there is indie trash by a mile
Indie games at least let you play them, unlike your average AAA movie.

>As for heavy rain he is moving the character in your clip
He's going down a giant hallway, and it's essentially a cinematic segment. There's no tension, no care, no cause for entertainment. How is that good gameplay?

>>376089865
>Let me clarify: you don't use them as a metric as if they were right
Huh? If reviewers were 100%, objectivity right about everything you should regard their statements.
Besides Souls games are above modern reviewers handle and they get high scores from everywhere because even they know that it has great everything.

>You use them as a guide to know what's bad or not.
Most do

>jim Sterling likes a game, then it's clearly a bad game, or not worth the praise. Why? Well, I say it multiple times above, he's paid to like games, so higher scores mean more money
No one listens to that fat fuck.

>so you deny that people constantly jerk these games off as amazing?
Yes, because the only people who say these games are good are /v/.

>like I say above, they're the same kind of reptilian aliens who don't care about gameplay and can't even grasp it.
False, considering Nintendo games almost always get scores like Metroid pre-Other M. BOTW is nothing but gameplay and has high scores.

>>376090557

>But what is the point? The only real use is that it's being ported to modern systems, but the original crash is already available, so unless they're improving the gameplay, why bother?
Because it looks drastically better? Has nicer textures runs at a modern resolution and aspect ratio? Same reason i bought the good the bad and the ugly on vhs, dvd and blu ray. I'd still play the psx version but this would be improved.

>That was because Yooka laylee was trash to begin with. Nothing could've saved that.
Same as all nostalgia bait.
>Shovel Knight is a proper retro game.
I'll give you Shovel knight as the one hidden needle in the haystack.

>Indie games at least let you play them, unlike your average AAA movie.
Wow you released thr same game i playes 20 years ago, only almost as good, really impressive how will games with cutscenes ever compete?
>How is that good gameplay?
So you admit it's gameplay? Talk about goalpost moving. First you imply liking narrative driven vidya is a logical fallacy.
Then you say it's not really vidya and has no gameplay. Now you resort to how is it good.
All i said is some people like it. Which is undeniable. And there is nothing wrong with that.

>>376090845

>Besides Souls games are above modern reviewers handle and they get high scores from everywhere because even they know that it has great everything.
I didn't want to be the one to say this, but Souls games are casual bait. They only appeal because they're kind of the gateway drug to hard games. They're like the Zelda of the modern day, everyone can flaunt it to gain instant gamer cred. They're not terrible games, but they're not deserving of the absurd praise.

>No one listens to that fat fuck.
I wish that was true, anon. i really do. But remember when he gave Horizon glowing praise? I think you do. A certain group on this board heralded him as /theirguy/. Not to name any names.

>Yes, because the only people who say these games are good are /v/.

The fact that they sell tons and get sequels says otherwise.

>False, considering Nintendo games almost always get scores like Metroid pre-Other M. BOTW is nothing but gameplay and has high scores.
And BOTW doesn't deserve those high scores. For goodness sake, these people defended the 20 FPS frame drops as "artistic". If you like the game, that's perfectly fine. But there's no doubt that these people were "persuaded" to give high scores to it.

>>376090990

>Because it looks drastically better?
Are you kidding? It barely looks improved, and they completely botched the color scheme, so everything looks like some cheap unity project, instead of a colorful cartoony game trying to make the most of its limitations.

>I'll give you Shovel knight as the one hidden needle in the haystack.
I could name multiple ones, like the Astro Port series, or the freeware masterpieces like Dwarf Fortress. There's plenty to choose from.

>Wow you released thr same game i playes 20 years ago
Yes, let's instead turn to Sony who releases Uncharted 7: Nathan checks his privilege, for 60 dollars plus DLC.

>So you admit it's gameplay?
Let's not argue semantics here. I asked you a question, I made no implications.

>>376088561
FUUCK, 55 MIN PASSED AND YOU ONLY WORKED 40
BACK TO WORK YOU WANKER

>>376091638
>it barely looks improved.
Subjective I like it others don't.
They had to take more creative liberties than they do with just ps2 games. A nd im glad they didn't botch it like with final Fantasy X and silent hill.
>Dwarf Fortress
Lmao
>uncharted.
I hate uncharted but at least it's different. Though i think sony as a company has only made a few good games since ps2 gen personally. That being said i can name a billion games that try new innovative ideas, shitty indie 8bit gamea aren't many of them.
>i made no implications.
You did. You flat out said it was a "logical fallacy" to like it. You said it wasn't a fame, and had no gameplay.
I personally don't like heavy rain. Others do. So what? What's wrong with that?

>>376074805
>Game brags that it has no cutscenes
>is riddled with scenes where all you can do is stand there or autistically rummage around a locked room until the NPC's have finished talking/the thing happening outside has finished exploding

you can't just pluck a chicken and call it a man

>>376091981
>game brags about having no cutscenes
>has no gameplay either.
Everytime.

>>376091959

>They had to take more creative liberties than they do with just ps2 games.
Ultimately we'll have to see if it actually improves upon the games.

>Lmao
The heck is that supposed to mean? It's not a good game?

>I hate uncharted but at least it's different
It's a gritty white guy with a snarky personality shooting people with guns. How's that different?

>You did. You flat out said it was a "logical fallacy" to like it.
Oh, that. Yeah, I still stand by that. If you're not playing a game for the gameplay, then I'm sorry, but you have a wrong opinion. I mean that in the nicest way, but to put it in an apt food analogy, if you're going to Mcdonalds to eat something healthy, then you've made a really really poorly made choice.

>>376092526
>then I'm sorry you have a wrong opinion
>wrong opinion
>wrong
>opinion
>W
>R
>O
>N
>G
>O
>P
>I
>N
>I
>O
>N
We have reached peak acfag i repeat. Peak acfag.

>>376092843

You can fancy greentext if you want, but it's just a simple fact: you are objectively wrong if you want a video game for the story, and you actively consider gameplay a detriment. You have completely missed the point of the medium, and are attempting to propagate another medium entirely for no reason.

>>376093181
You are Right. Sorry for my wrong opinion. It's like those people who go to mcdonalds for chicken mcnuggets. I don't care if it's entirely preference or taste. Those millions of people who do it are wrong. It's objectively a burger ppace and their opinion is wrong.
There is no room for chicken nuggets on the menu.

How dare people enjoy videogames i don't like in a manner i disaprove of!
It's like those stupid fucking songs that add "lyrics" or those movies that add stories not just cinematography and beautiful shots. Complete bullshit and if you like them your opinion is wrong. Also fuck people who like poutine. gravy on fries? Can we just talk about how wrong their opinion is?

>>376093607
Go read a book and leave vidya alone, kikess.

>>376093774
>book
Anon shut the fuck up. You enjoy book stories? Books are exclusively for the display of literary devices. Stop ruining my hobby. You want a story? Go ask your fucking grandpa. I've had it with these wrong opinions about books with story being "good"

>>376093607

Another false analogy. Mcdonalds is known for its mcnuggets. It would be like trying to get Burger King from Mcdonalds. It's just not gonna happen.

>How dare people enjoy videogames i don't like in a manner i disaprove of!
I'm not saying they're bad people, just that you've missed the point of the medium. If you've seen even half of the garbage that game journos spew out on a daily basis, about how gameplay is actively destroying the industry because "it's archaic and a relic of the past" and games need to be artistic movies, you would more than sympathize with the position I take.

You would be fortunate to not cringe yourself inside out when you read about how Kotaku no longer wants to PLAY video games to review them.

>>376074943
Think more Zelda 1 or Dark Souls for the ideal method of story in video games

>>376079368
Oh so this is why they call you ACfag. CHrist you really don't learn anything from past threads do you, are you just that dedicated or do you mental gymnastics every argument you ever lose into not having happened?

>>376093920
Go read a book and leave vidya alone, kikess.

>>376092526
>>376092843

How much time did you guys waste here going full autistic on each other?

>>376094206
>Zelda 1
You mean "Read the manual"? You tried this defense last time too, Zelda 1 without a manual was nigh on unplayable.

>>376094343
No need to read the manual. You just go. Thats how all stories should be.

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>>376094343

>You mean "Read the manual"? You tried this defense last time too, Zelda 1 without a manual was nigh on unplayable.

I have some advice that might help you.

>>376093946
)
>Another false analogy. Mcdonalds is known for its mcnuggets.
Vidya is known for stories. It's gonma happen it does happen. To millionsnof people around the world daily.bbi can honestly say deadly premonition,mgs, vtmb, Catherine, lis, bioshock, planescape torment fucking life is strange are all some of the greatest story experiences i have had. And they do so in a manner that film, books, tv, music or theatre never could. Millions of people agree and you arw saying their opinion is objectively wrong based on the assertion you don't like these games so no one should. You argue since old games didn't have story new ones can't. That's like saying no films should have audio cause the originals didn't and there for dialogue is only a detriment to movies and can only drag them down. People who like dialogue heavy movies are factually incorrect in liking them. Or that since a movie can't be a movie with music alone, music can't be in movies or shouldn't be. When OSTs make or break both movies or vidya and can be some of the best music out there.
>>
>I'm not saying they're bad people, justthat you've missed the point of the medium. If you've seen even half of the garbage that game journos spew out on a daily basis, about how gameplay is actively destroying the industry because "it's archaic and a relic of the past" and games need to be artistic movies, you would more than sympathize with the position I take.
How dare they disagree with the great ACFAG! Almost no game journos talk or think like that. Not even your arch nemesis Jim Sterling. Though it's funny because such a thought tou are trying to villianize is the same flawed logic you are using only backwards.
>You would be fortunate to not cringe yourself inside out when you read about how Kotaku no longer wants to PLAY video games to review them.
Click Taco is a tabloid mag. The fact that you read them, and they influence your opinion, even if it's to the opposite of what they say, no especially that.

>>376094454
You just go where? There's no indicators to do anything. There's no intuitive level design. There is only guesswork. I argued this very thing with you a month ago and I guess you still haven't internalized it.

>>376094336
Slow day at work senpai. And my vita died.

>>376094490
You can't "Git gud" with no framework. GO boot up spiderbot and figure the game out. Go ahead, that is another game where you could theoretically fumble your way to victory, but it won't be fun doing so.

>>376094564
Doesn't have to be. If going left doesn't work out then you go right Having an NPC hold you hand and tell you to go left adds nothing. Also I'm never had this discussion with you before anon

>>376094719
You can't go left OR right from the start though, you have no weapon. You also have no way of knowing how to get a weapon or of knowing that a weapon exists in the game.

You either have a short memory or you actually just try your hardest to forget these threads you keep making.

>>376094491

>Vidya is known for stories.
Uh, no? Vidya is known for its interaction and gameplay. Back in the 80's games were lucky to even have stories. At most the story was the title on the cover of the cartridge. "BASEBALL". "PACMAN." "GOLF". They didn't have the resources to throw in a plot. What's sad is now they abuse their newfound technical and hardware prowess to make movie games and skimp on the gameplay.

>To millionsnof people around the world daily.bbi can honestly say deadly premonition,mgs, vtmb, Catherine, lis, bioshock, planescape torment fucking life is strange are all some of the greatest story experiences i have had.
If you like them, I won't degrade you for it. But you have to understand that their story is ultimately second fiddle to the gameplay. If the story is all you're interested in, then I can just watch a youtube video of your """game""" and miss absolutely nothing. See, that's the allure of an interactive product: it should convince you to want to buy and interact with it. Otherwise everyone can freely pirate the experience on a video sharing service. But you show me a video of Uncharted and I'll no longer have the drive to play. Same with Final Fantasy XV (which I played anyway, and I have second hand buyer's remorse even if I didn't buy it myself).

>Almost no game journos talk or think like that.
Then someone hasn't seen their Resident Evil 7 review.

>>376094631

>You can't "Git gud" with no framework. GO boot up spiderbot and figure the game out.
Part of the fun is fumbling around and figuring out what to do. Knowing that you have that freedom, combined with a well made game rewarding the proper amount of exploration and fact finding and puzzle solving, equals a better product.

My first experience with the first Zelda was when I was a lad, 20 years ago. It was a big hard figuring my way around, but that exploration I enjoyed was all there. No cutscenes, no handholding, just me and the game world. Now imagine myself, 20 years later, being able to appreciate this. It hasn't aged very gracefully, but it has held up for a decent amount.

>>376094790
I wasn't speaking in reference to a specific part of the game but the point remains the same. When met with impossible derision you just go in a different direction. I like to think your common player is educated enough to walk into the cave he starts next to if you give him enough time

>>376094993
And THEN what? They walk in a direction not knowing that there are dungeons or bosses or any point at all. You don't understand the order you're supposed to (and are required to) do the world in. Give any child or even any adult Legend of Zelda with no manual and no familiarity, and they're drop the game like the contextless pile of garbage they will inevitably find it to be,
>>376094972
>Part of the fun is fumbling around and figuring out what to do
If I were to strip you of your familiarity with the series and adventure video games in general, you would find manualless LoZ1 impenetrable. Sure you can look back and say LoZ made sense, but you are operating on 20 years of game experience and a knowledge of the common gameplay tropes involved. You are able to intuitively figure it out because you have had all of these explained to you either by manuals or by CUTSCENES in countless games.

>>376074805
Turok for N64 and PC barely had any story, I think it only had some of that in the manual so if you didn't have that you had an almost pure and unadultered game with basically no story and pure gameplay.

>>376094802
It's known for story and gameplay.
Love how you brought up orignal games not having story after i already explained why it's stupid. Then proceeded to ignore it.
>at best second fiddle
Any game you want me to remember 5 years down the road they have to synch perfectly in tandem.
Watching a youtube video fails to give you the experience for several reasons. Many vidya stories are based on decisions from dialogue choices to who to talk to what quests to do. Where to go. How you handled X. It's a customized experience tailored to how you handle things. Or it's based on exploration. Exploring a house people used to live in reading clues to what was left behind. To solving puzzles. Story can build up a boss battle. Make you amped to fight him, give you a emotional attachment to the battle make you care about the outcome. Make you fear how strong he is. Make the struggle so much more satisfying. That means nothing if you don't actually get to fight him.

Take the endings to vtmb for example. Opening the sarcophagus is no where near as satisfying of an ending if it is the only one. Or it isn't you yourself making the stupid ass decision to open it. It means nothing if you just read, you can open it and die or see it on youtube. It means nothing if you didn't spend hours fighting and exploring and questing all around that stupid sarcophagus only to finally get to open it.

>>376094993

It's perfectly logical to entice a player to enter the cave first. As long as you don't let Valve playtesters near it. They might try to eat the cartridge before playing it.

>>376095291
>we left a big floating arrow pointing to the cave, but our playtesters were afraid of the arrow, assuming it was an enemy
>we've replaced the cave with a smiley face to avoid this problem

>>376095262
You dont have to. You explore around, see what you can fine. Do the dungeons until you hit a wall then turn around and go in a different direction. That feeling of reward is so much better when you work for it over having some NPC just give you all the answers.

>Give any child or even any adult Legend of Zelda with no manual and no familiarity, and they're drop the game
Thats because the modern genre has casualized and dumbed down games massively. The previous generation of players had no problem doing any of this and they didn't have epic lets players to show them how

>>376095447
No, at no point in any generation could any children enjoyably spend five hours attempting to trial and error their way through a game. And that's all this would be, pure trial and error. Every single child from any generation would drop it and, while they might not hate it, would call it too confusing. They would also be completely right, because it WOULD be too confusing. Context is important, and yet every time you make these threads you pretend context can always be given through pure gameplay. But we both know it can't in some cases.

>>376095262

>If I were to strip you of your familiarity with the series and adventure video games in general, you would find manualless LoZ1 impenetrable.
That's not what my 10 year old self thought. Now imagine myself much smarter, older and wiser, going through the game. It might be a tad bit of a roadblock for the casuals, but I'm sure Nintendo could give them a casual mode or something. As for us challenge-seekers, it's a welcome change.

>>376095290

>It's known for story and gameplay.
Only today is it known by that, because hollywood has infested the industry. The last time they tried that with ET, the industry nearly imploded in a horrible mess, with the billions of other terrible movie tie-in games not helping the situation.

>Any game you want me to remember 5 years down the road they have to synch perfectly in tandem.
Tetris would argue otherwise, as would Minecraft, Pacman, Gradius, Contra, and etc. You can argue that had the rumblings of a plot, but they were so miniscule that removing the plot meant nothing.

>Many vidya stories are based on decisions from dialogue choices to who to talk to what quests to do. Where to go. How you handled X.
You forget, this is all gameplay-related. And in a cinematic experience with terrible gameplay, it doesn't matter in the slightest.

>Or it's based on exploration. Exploring a house people used to live in reading clues to what was left behind.
Again heavily based on the mechanics built forth. Without those exploration means nothing.

>Story can build up a boss battle. Make you amped to fight him
Gameplay does that a thousand times better. Why TELL me about a villain or a boss when you can SHOW me about him during gameplay? Sure, Mr. Big Bad can claim to level a city, but when he actually levels the city while I'm in it, leading to a Super Contra-style platforming segment with fire pits and burning buildings, you better believe I'll feel the impact much more.

>Take the endings to vtmb
Not a fan imo.

>>376095726
Your 10 year old self had the manual, and failing that, your ten year old self had the schoolyard.

>>376095720

>No, at no point in any generation could any children enjoyably spend five hours attempting to trial and error their way through a game.
That's why we've evolved from Zelda 1. Now we have games that have better pacing and provide better direction, still without the crutch of cutscenes and constant handholding. Bar some really, REALLY stupid decisions on Nintendo's part, I think Breath of the Wild somewhat accomplishes this. Although I hate how stupidly casual Ganon is, I admit that it is refreshing to be able to fight him head on without any arbitrary walls placed between the two of you. Now, making him a challenge is another story.

>>376095720
You seem to be under the impression that video games are movies. By minute 13 you should have XYZ accomplished by minute 40 you should have gotten to level 50. I think we have opposed ideologies in this regard.

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>>376074805
>Sonic fights Knuckles
>Eggman steals Master Emerald
>Sonic & Knuckles try to stop him unsuccessfully
>Knuckles is beaten
>He starts wondering where Eggman could went
>They teleport to Sky Sanctuary
>They see the badniks flying off the Death Egg
>Kekles open the bridge and let the rest to Sonic

I know i'm talking about a 16 bit game, but i'm still amazed for how they managed to tell that story without using cutscenes. Also you never lose the control of the character during that "cutscene"

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>>376074805

>>376095906
If by hour 5 you still haven't been given an opportunity to grasp the game, the game has failed to present itself to you. There's a reason a basic tutorial, even an intuitive one like Warioland 4, has become not only a staple but expected of the genre.

>>376095832

Actually, funny you say that, I played it at my cousin's house, and guess what, she lost the manual. so I had to solo it. Also, I got to the game rather late, so people were already discussing the Super nintendo.

>>376096017

The secret is to make the tutorial NOT a tutorial. Like the opening level of Megaman X. Natural progression teaches you all the mechanics you need to know because of your curiosity.

>>376095847
But the direction isn't given through pure gameplay. The direction can never be given through pure gameplay. Look at Warioland 4's tutorial, it still gives you pictographs of actions and controls even though it is seamless with gameplay, but by the standards in this thread due to the fact that is a segregated area from the game and player agency is largely stripped, it's a pseudocutscene.

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>>376095914
Some of them force you to stop for a few seconds. But you're right, stuff like that is objectively the best way to tell story in video games.

>Start Sonic and Knuckles
>Get greeted by Knuckles sneaking out of a hole then flipping a switch to hide it and running off this
>Introduces us to switch flipping as a mechanic, and adds a wealth of implication to Knuckles connection to the emeralds as well as reinforcing his personality traits introduced in Sonic 3.

Meanwhile it would take a western game no less than 10 minutes of exposition filled cutscenes to do the same

>>376096039
I doubt your story.
>>376096108
How are you going to explain more complex game mechanics outside of flat out telling the player? Like with a platformer that kind of approach works, but a game with very intensive gameplay with a lot going on simply cannot convey it all with simplistic training dolls.

>>376096115

that's why I'd give Warioland 4 credit for trying. Even if it was somewhat half-hearted, it was still in the right place. Plus, being a Nintendo title on the GBA no less, they didn't bother wasting money on a long, boring, cutscene. So that's a plus.

>>376074805
>/v/
>consensus

>>376074805
Literally the other way around faggot

>>376086519
It's got like 3 tops and 2 of them are incredibly brief.

>>376096249
>half hearted
Go fuck yourself there was so much effort put into the design of that game they wrote a BOOK on it. If there was a better way of doing it, they would have done it. Thew book is basically a manifesto of attempting to seamlessly integrate story and gameplay, but even with that as the goal they had to make concessions for playability.

>>376075531
New Vegas story isn't great, it's just better than Bethesda's which is a pretty low bar to jump

>>376096228

>How are you going to explain more complex game mechanics outside of flat out telling the player?
Simple; a series of live combat segments where enemies need specific actions to kill them. But have it flow naturally, don't lock the player into a room with a dummy enemy. Perhaps invoke a color scheme to let you know what enemies die to what, or perhaps a rock paper scissors style system that you can catch on to. Shucks, one of my favorite RPGs, the Desolate Hope, did this nicely. Sure, the coffee pot main character does drone on, but you're allowed to fully experience combat within minutes of starting the game.

>>376096405

Oh, I understand that. They really couldn't do much more with the limitations presented, and I applaud them for it. Still, I think a few things could've been improved.

>>376096572
Like what? How would you convey to a player the controls necessary to enter a pipe? How about conveying to them that enemies can be thrown into other enemies or switches?
>>376096508
A few criticisms
How will they know how to execute these moves?
How will they know what moves correspond to which colors?
How will they know the moves list?
If you limit it to a rock paper scissors style, have you not given up on complexity?
You are always going to be "Locking them in a room with a dummy enemy", the only thing you can change is how obviously you are doing so.

>>376096917

>Like what? How would you convey to a player the controls necessary to enter a pipe? How about conveying to them that enemies can be thrown into other enemies or switches?
I would have beginner levels that kind of put you in a situation where you have no choice but to do those things. You see a very prominent pipe in a room, for example, so make the controls simple enough so you think "hey, Mario goes into a pipe using [button combo]. I wonder if Wario will." With enemies being thrown into others, or switches, have rooms around learning that. But do it in a roundabout way. I know I don't have the 30 years of game experience and 50 years of love hotel experience that Nintendo does, but it's just some suggestions.

>How will they know how to execute these moves?
Don't overwhelm them with too many moves, have them be able to play around with the controls.

>How will they know what moves correspond to which colors?
Again, give them small test samples to play around with before mixing it up.

>How will they know the moves list?
got me there, I'd relegate that to the manual, or the pictographs work fine.

>If you limit it to a rock paper scissors style, have you not given up on complexity?
People swear by Pokemon despite it being rock paper scissors, so you can argue that one can make it more complex and rewarding.

>You are always going to be "Locking them in a room with a dummy enemy", the only thing you can change is how obviously you are doing so.
Precisely. I'm particularly a fan of a beginner level like Megaman X's opening streets, or the BobBomb Battlefield of Mario 64, or the plains of passage from Shovel Knight. They don't feel like tutorial areas, but give you a bogdanoff style rundown of how the game works.

>>376095914
I forgot to mention that while Eggman steals the emerald, you can hit him (even though it's useless) to pretend you're helping Knuckles or press the up arrow to pretend you're paying attention to what's going on.

I mean, you have the freedom to choose how to take part on that scene.

>>376097361
Well you still have the intrinsic problem that you are shutting them in a room until hey figure shit out. This is, by the standards of this thread, a handholding pseudocutscene.
>don't overwhelm
This limits complexity, which I think we can both agree is a bad thing.
>test samples
Shutting them in a room etc.
>pokemon
People swear by pokemon but pokemon was always casual and handholdy. It's definitely not an intensive RPG. RPS is RPS, you can only add more triangles like Pokemon, it never gets more interesting.
>precisely
If you are going to be locking them in a room anyway, might as well make it a flashy room with neat music and nice cinematics, and have the transition between training rooms be fun and interesting.

>>376097762

>Well you still have the intrinsic problem that you are shutting them in a room until hey figure shit out.
As long as they're still allowed to figure it out with being shoved in a cutscene or told what to do with thousands of words, I would consider it pass worthy.

>This limits complexity, which I think we can both agree is a bad thing.
Limiting complexity in the beginning isn't a bad thing. It's just that you need to let it flow naturally and become more complex as the game demands it down the line, at the point where the player should have some more common sense.

>People swear by pokemon but pokemon was always casual and handholdy.
I suppose that's true, still I would take some parts from it as an example of good game design, like how, after the initial tutorials, the game pretty much opens up to complete freedom in your party composition. Never does the game tell you "you have to have this pokemon in your party" or some other nonsense. The important thing is the freedom you're allowed.

>If you are going to be locking them in a room anyway, might as well make it a flashy room with neat music and nice cinematics, and have the transition between training rooms be fun and interesting.
I have to argue against the cinematics so long as another way of having the player advance can be considered. But everything else can stay. when you have good gameplay already, neat music never hurts. My problem is when it's in another game, and it's generic orchestrals, or weeaboo singing, and it completely destroys the tonal pacing that the gameplay is trying to set up.

>>376074903
Gone Home isn't a game.

>>376098098
>As long as they're still allowed to figure it out with being shoved in a cutscene or told what to do with thousands of words, I would consider it pass worthy.
I hope this belief continues into the next thread and we just don't get another full reset
>Limiting complexity in the beginning is good
Some styles of game cannot limit even starting complexity to the point where it is easily delivered through tutorial rooms. Like how many people had figured out parrying or the kick input in dark souls by the time they got out of Undead Asylum? Damn near nobody. I had to sit down and learn that shit on my own.
>pokemon
Pokemon has always had fairly intrusive although usually optional tutorials. HEY KID WANNA LEARN TO CATCH POKEMON was included in the Missingno glitch for fucks sake. They had to arrest control from the player because some of the more esoteric concepts of pokemon catching had to be flat out explained and could not easily be conveyed intuitively.
>I have to argue against the cinematics so long as another way of having the player advance can be considered
When the choice is between "Have a player walk from one room to the next" and "Have a short but fun cutscene carry them over", I think most people prefer the cutscene. Like do you really begrudge the MGR tutorial boss for forcing you to jump across missiles in a quick time event to deliver you to the wall running tutorial?

>>376098596

>I hope this belief continues into the next thread and we just don't get another full reset
I've always believed in it, which is why I'm a big fan of the Metroid series, and why I hate what's become of it.

>Like how many people had figured out parrying or the kick input in dark souls by the time they got out of Undead Asylum?
If those mechanics weren't absolutely required, then all the better. They learn it as they go along and become better.

>Pokemon has always had fairly intrusive although usually optional tutorials. HEY KID WANNA LEARN TO CATCH POKEMON
I acknowledge that, but I found little pieces of the later parts of the game to be very nice in pacing.

>Like do you really begrudge the MGR tutorial boss for forcing you to jump across missiles in a quick time event to deliver you to the wall running tutorial?
Yes actually. I would've loved to do that manually.

>>376094206
>Dark Souls
>Being a model for anything but how to NOT make a game

>>376099087
>Yes actually. I would've loved to do that manually.
But you did do it manually, the game simply didn't make every missile a platform for an annoying instant death platforming section in a hack and slash. You were involved in the action, but you weren't using the mechanics of the game itself because the game itself isn't a good system for a linear platformer.
>If those mechanics weren't absolutely required, then all the better. They learn it as they go along and become better.
It did such a poor job of explaining rolls that to this day people still hide behind greatshields and don't know about roll speeds. Rolls are DEFINITELY something they needed to explain better but couldn't. How is someone supposed to figure out the 25/50/75 roll breakpoints raw? I think I only figured it out after I beat the game and was moving onto Artorias of the Abyss.

>>376075539
Initial D games do that quite well.
>all of the tracks have little things that help you improve your times
>every rivals weakness from the show can be exploited
>crucial overtake points are highlighted on every track from the show

>>376077990
That's not how things work here bud

>>376099396

>the game simply didn't make every missile a platform for an annoying instant death platforming section in a hack and slash.
Then I think it should've improved on that aspect.Would've been a great way to introduce a grappling hook or something that you could use in combat later, or to platform. Or make the missiles easy to cling to to minimize frustration. Anything but a quick time event.

>It did such a poor job of explaining rolls that to this day people still hide behind greatshields and don't know about roll speeds.
In all fairness, rolls kinda break the game. So it'd probably be better to re-purpose the mechanic entirely.

>>376099641
>all of these workarounds
Or, instead of making an entirely new mechanic based around jumping on missiles, which occurs a handful of times in the game, they can throw it into the pile with the other mix and match fighting interactions and have it play as what is essentially an interactive cutscene or a rhythm game. It was seamless and felt like gameplay even though it technically wasn't by your standards.
>rolls break the game
Shield turtling makes souls games fundamentally unfun. They turn every bossfight braindead and make every invasion a stamina match. Rolls ARE the central mechanic of the souls games, shields are fairly obviously there to help when rolls fail or you don't know the timings yet. I don't know how you can have the opinion that rolls break the game when rolls are the only thing that allow the game to be skillful instead of a game about holding L2 until the enemy is done attacking before hitting it once or twice and going right back into turtlemode.

>>376100023

I'm sorry, but I can't agree. The quick time events felt lifeless and take you right out of the action.

>Shield turtling makes souls games fundamentally unfun.
The series in general is just too easy to abuse.

>>376100834
I cannot concieve of how you think that considering that I myself have a large distaste for cutscenes but found all of those assorted pseudo-cutscenes as satisfying segues between boss phases and combat arenas, when they happened.
>too easy to abuse
And here I just find you to be silly. The souls games are what they are, and the system must exist in a form similar to what it currently is. Are you unironically one of those "iframes are bad game design" people?

Dota and binding of issac are some of my most played games.

>>376100834
I'm gonna head off, see you next thread. Try to keep it once a week if you will.