Can video games be a medium used for philosophy in a similar

>>323549645
yes but the interactive aspect of video games is only a steering wheel for any philosophical plot which is obsolete compared to narrative art forms. So at best a shitty movie, á la Bioshock, for example

Although this could be improved if a game had like very little focus on mechanics and shit and solely used the interactions of the character as a narrative in a lenient plot, with a bunch of cut scenes, reading notes etc, sort of like Dear Esther

>>323550296
No, fuck you, then there's no point in making it a video game in the first place.

Have philisophy speak through mechanics somehow.

>>323549645
Yes but whatever philosophical musings are being expressed are best conveyed in anything but scripted cutscenes and character dialogue.

>>323549645
Sure, but since the main demograhic is 12-25 youre not going to get much farther than nietzsche

>>323549645
>He's the Grandmaster of my order.
>He lives in Chorrol.
What did he mean by this?

>>323552868
>youre not going to get much farther than nietzsche
>implying Nietzsche's work isn't some of the most complex and deep in existence
>implying more than 5% of 12-25 year-olds truly understand Nietzsche

>>323552868
Lol you actually think any of the edgy people who idolise/refer to Nietzsche have read any of his works.

>>323553146
dude.

just because you've read some nietzsche doesn't make you an intellectual.

Nietzsche is some low level shit and not complex in anyway. its literally babbys first psychology knowledge. Just like Freud.

>>323555545
There's so much wrong with this post.

>>323549645
Yes.
Fallout: New Vegas has a lot of philosophical undertones and overtones.

>>323555891
Like?

>>323553004
Near the city of Chorrol.

>>323555791
Fuck off, senpai
Epistulae Morales Ad Lucilium is a thousand times better than Nietzsche

>>323555791
>s-stop lying! i'm well educated because i've read some wikipedia! :(

>>323549645
Some already do. Unless you're talking in a general sense (mainstream etc), and that just isn't the case because it's more about commercialization rather than making something inventive/artful.

>>323556380
Like?

>>323555924
Hegelian dialectics, the erasure of history and culture - it's effects, Plato's allegory for the cave. Liberty VS Security, subjective morality, etc.

It mostly ties into its more prominent sociopolitical themes, though.

>>323556440
Talos Principle

>>323550386
>Have philisophy speak through mechanics somehow.
it would probably end up being some 4th wall bullshit

>>323556440
It's brought up a lot too because 'yo what is this good writing in a video game', but there's Planescape Torment has that stuff too.

>>323555545
>dude
>low level shit
>babbys first

Yep, it's a trollpost. Epic...

Yeah, games can do that, if anything games can do it more effectively than movies or music because you can just create a world, and have the player explore it and discover the theme for themselves. It certainly increases the emotional weight when you participate directly in story.

That said, games are still a very young genre, so there are relatively few games that do this, but I can't wait to see what happens in the future as games get more respect and authority.

Not to turn this into a blog post, but I really hope the games market crashes so games go back to being an enthusiasts genre. Hopefully then we could see devs take more risks and experiment around a lot more, when they are less concerned with selling a trillion copies by pandering to the lowest common denominator.

>>323556537
>the erasure of history and culture
Details?

>>323549645
MGSV almost did with its "how language changes warfare" plot point

But it never developed it beyond recognising it exists.

>>323557056
>But it never developed it beyond recognising it exists.

That seems to be the case with most video games.

>>323556537
Plato's "The Cave" exclusively is comparable to FO1, and is done intentionally so.

Everyone has left their "cave" by the time of NV.

>>323549645
It already is and has been for years. But much like movies and books, it's not the same kind of philosophy as an essay on the subject and usually isn't that good anyway.

Best example off the top of my head is something like pathologic. San Andreas could be construed as an analysis and refutation of the philosophy of 90s rap and west coast culture in general.

File: Ulysses.jpg (152KB, 1191x670px) Image search: [Google]

152KB, 1191x670px

>>323557027
Have you played the game? Or more specifically the Lonesome Road DLC?
I'm not being accusatory, I simply don't want to give away plot details.

But I'll be happy to expand if you don't care.

>>323549645
>Kotor 2
>planescape
>never winter nights expansion packs and sequel
>halo 5
Why even post this kind of bait jackass? What would your mother think?

>>323557241
I didn't. Tell me.

i am a prototype for a much larger system.

>>323557114
Yeah. Its harder to address ideas in vidya (that are not game related in nature like Stanley parable) becuase you have the whole gameplay thing you need to worry about.

>>323550296
>>323556850
It's a bad example but it's not impossible to at least try and drive that shit through mechanics
Look at Braid for an overused example

Making the player experience something through certain mechanics is absolutely possible and it's possible to drive certain points across that way.
Hell even games that don't intend to do that still sometimes convey certain messages through mechanics, like masks in Majora's mask.

>>323557370
There is nothing tryhard about this thread.

People like you who have an aversion to anything that even attempts to be "intellectual" are tryhard as fuck though.

>>323557370
Why? It's an interesting thread.

>huehuehue look at all these guys tryna be all these words and shieeeeeet

>>323549645
No, now post some mods with intense hand holding

>>323556850
Like in undertale.

>>323550386
>Errant signal always says this
How the fuck do you convey themes and philosophy through interactivity?

What would such a system even look like?

>>323557313
muh home
muh roads
muh courier
muh nukes
muh ED-E

>>323553146
>5%
That's a little high isn't it?

>>323557724
You tie the mechanics to the principle you're trying to convey. The simplest and oldest example is venerable morality system. It really all depends on what the philosophy in question is as to how you implement it.

>>323557313
If you're not familiar with the game at all, there's a faction waging war against the New California Republic, called "Caesar's Legion". They assimilate everyone whom they come across into their group, or kill them, on the grounds of them being dissolute, profligate, degenerate, etc. The entire Legion is an amalgamation of tribal identities and groups who have been conquered and reformed. Their identities are taken away, replaced with Ancient Latin names and educated. Men are made to conquer more land for the "greater good" while the women are used as educators, breeders, et cetera.

The base game itself explores through dialogue how Caesar, in an attempt to unify the world under one monolithic structure and national identity has effectively stripped these people of their entire beings - their personalities are rendered extinct and they are put into service of Caesar and the Cult of Mars, his Legion, his bull.

One such conquered group was called the Twisted Hairs. From it, was a man named Ulysses. His time spent in the Legion left him with conflict feelings - he sees the good that the Legion can do, but he begins to question what value an identity, a name, a culture has, once it has been effectively obliterated. Is it something to be mourned? To be fought for? Or is it negligible and not worth thinking over?

Ulysses settles in a place called 'The Divide' which served as a trade route between the Mojave and California, wherein he had attempted to settle a new world under the shadow of the old - his world would reflect the values of pre-war America, all of its virtues, its qualities, its freedoms. It was inadvertently and accidentally destroyed by the player character before the start of the game. Its history of the old world, what was contained there, taken away in one fell swoop. He forces the player the question their actions and the value of the aforementioned aspects of culture and history.

I'm simplifying things since you haven't played it.

>>323555791
Mind summarising Nietzsche then?

>>323557724
Not him but just as an idea

>MGSV
>the effect of language on the battlefield
>have different factions that speak different tongues
>put in random events that show different outcomes from soldiers language differences i.e. a russian soldier who doesnt speak arabic gets captured by mujahideen and gets treated like shit, but in other cases there may be a soviet solider who does speak it and gets treated better
I know its a pretty simple idea but its just what i thought up on the spot. All you are trying to do is convey different views on ideas through gameplay that the player can influence (or not).

>>323549645
No. There are no video games with anything interesting or worthwhile to say, and the medium should stick to making fun games instead of pseudo-movies.

>>323558168
It can do both you know.

>>323558168
>There are no video games with anything interesting or worthwhile to say

What is worthwhile is subjective.

>>323549645
Probably, but games should focus on their gameplay and fun factors, not their 2deep4you factors.

>>323558517
Who's to say that they can't focus on both and be successful?

If the gameplay is to be satisfying and engaging, why can't the story?

>>323558461
Nothing worthwhile from the perspective of a well-read adult with at least a passing familiarity with the literature and film canon. Better?

>>323558168
Read the thread, everyone is making an argument that you don't need to have a pseudo-movie to convey a message, again it's possible to do through mechanics.
I mean, look at games like Pathalogic that manage to even convey at least the atmosphere and the feeling of a dying society/town.

>>323558735
I disagree, I've had experiences in videogames that no other media form will ever be able to convey to me.

>>323558735
Not especially, no. I have a degree in Literature, and I certainly find some themes and dialogues in video games to be engaging at the least. A few of them can really be quite stimulating, too.

>>323559032
>I have a degree in Literature

Good luck.

>>323558694
It doesn't matter what other focus is, as long as main focus in gameplay.

When creating a game, you need to understand that many people will want to opt out from your bullshit story, and just play the game.

>>323558735
I know people who are likely much better read and educated then you who'd disagree. Youre stuck in the pretentious phase of intellect. No one who's actually well-rounded would make generalizations like that.

>>323559108
Thanks, Anon!

>>323559276
Wrong on all counts.

>>323560267
You are aware that there has been a massive brain drain from literature and academia for the past 30 years or so. Most of the talent has gone to movies and videogames or were there from the start because there are few jobs and no money in the traditional settings and those types tend to be hip as fuck. Film is arguably dying as a medium for this level of expression while with vidya it just keeps getting easier for fewer and fewer people to put out something decent and more closely adhere to the vision of the auteur without the intervention of layers of money hungry producers.

>>323558819
But its not a mechanic per se, it is just an atmosphere game creates which has not much to do with interactive medium aka video games, the same can be achieved with films for ex.
What we are looking for is the way to implement philosophy in the gameplay.