Madoka

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Miki Sayaka was a mistake.

Don't forget to sage

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>>2309312
>>2309313
>>2309314
>>2309318

Wow, Madomka is fierce. Does her lewdness know no bounds?

>>2309376
Nope it's why she was able to make Mami a sub

>>2309318
The rest of this doujin is futa, just to warn you guys.

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>>2309376
Madoka has the will to be god, her lewdness breaks limits and knows no bounds. Combined with Homura's insane devotion, who knows what kind of crazy stuff they get into.

https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/nisekano#1

Holy shit. These just keep coming.

>>2309981
>Homura x DarkOrb OTP

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>>2309981
Everlasting explosion orb > hyper ultimate orb > dark orb

>>2309376
In that pic, she's exercising a fair amount of restraint; after all, she has a clear shot to grope Homura's chest, but deliberately places her hand beneath.

>>2310064
>implying that isn't a part of some meta-plot to tease Homura by not directly touching her sexuality until Homura begs Madoka to touch her

>>2310066
>implying Homura would ever consider herself worthy enough to request anything from Madoka

>>2310025
>NTR > Yuri > Yuri

Fuck off /a/!

>>2309981
>https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/nisekano#1

Here's the afterwards:

===Nisekano===

A sincere thank you for reading this far.
I want to draw the devilish demon that becoming a more devilish.

Even though this is my third Akuma Homura volume, the character settings differs from its precedessors.
Comparatively, the demon became a bit more devilish.


Madoka's room is very adorable... but childish.
The thought of it invaded by a demon made my mind race.

We watched Madoka grow up from an infant in the "Luminous" OP,
That Madoka being attacked by a demon made my heart race.

I drew the draft, murmuring "Madoka the cutest",
Like a sutra.
Like something has woke up inside me.

Allowing my secret desires to manifest.
Released the Law of Cycles, a demon that declares "NO" was born.
This was how HomuMado was born, even though it'll inevitably return to MadoHomu.

Maitake 2014/12/28

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>>120482505
> >>120479957
> >Glad homaru won in the end
>Don't watch the third movie.


What is this idiot talking about? Homaru DID win in Rebellion: she took madoka for herself. She's like a rapist.

The series had selfless love winning.
Rebellion had a turnaround where posessive love won.

It's like going from New Testament --> Old Testament.

I was glad possessive love won in the end: that Madoka is again A Slave to the Deciever (this time it's homaru).

I hate the New Testament religion and it's forcing of men to have only possessive love. I like the old testament book of Deuteronomy which champions possessive love.

What did he mean by what he said "don't watch the third movie"?

>In the white world only one type of love is permitted for men to have: selfless love. This love is typified by the teachings of Jesus: die for the woman: forgive the woman: serve the woman
>
>The other type of love (that is banned completely by the acolytes of the Zoroastrian religion known as muh jeebusses better a mill stone ) is possessive love: this form of love is typified by the type of love God had fore the jews: possessive and jealous. Examples of this form of love can be found in Deuteronomy and other books of God's law: men having cute female children as brides; men being the ba'al (overlord) of the female(s); men holding down and raping virgin female children (Deuteronomy 22; v28-29, in Hebrew) and never letting them go; men killing women who leave them by committing adultery. This type of love is completely banned in white countries because whites are cucks for women and worshipers of the false idol jesus and his alternative religion that now rules the entire world. Men who display possessive love end up in prison in these women's countries
>
>Or to put it simply
>Selfless love is madokas love for others. Possessive love is homarus love for madoka. Glad homaru won in the end, it is stifling to be ruled by those who force one to have only selfless love.

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You're so cute and tiny like a grade schooler"

Another thing in line with old testament and against the new testament: the desirability of female children for mates.

Of-course we are ruled by the woman's christian temperance movement the whole world over now and their cuck idol Jesus. Jesus who said the Father of the Jews was the (I guess his) Adversary.


I liked rebellion alot.

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>>2310460
>>2310461
Uh yeah, sure.

>>2310460
And yet Homura is wracked by extreme guilt, her mental health has deteriorated to near non existence, and she wants to kill herself.

She taken the role of Lucifer from Paradise Lost, and like Lucifer, she's a loser who basically drowning in self-loathing.

That aint victory.

>>2310470
Her win condition is Madoka being happy, she couldn't give a slightest amount of fucks about herself.

>>2310478
And if Madoka knew what kinda of emotional trauma Homura was putting herself through for her sake, she wouldn't be very happy at all. Super pissed even.

It's completey selfish, Homura knows if Madoka would know, she would hate (for the reason stated above) and yet she's enacted her own will against Madoka's.

>>2310460
>>2310461
>>2310470
>>2310478
>>2310483
Can you two just exchange digits and flirt in private?

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>>2310470

>And yet Homura is wracked by extreme guilt, her mental health has deteriorated to near non existence, and she wants to kill herself.

Not /pol/nee-san. but Homura did win. Regardless of what Homura feels about herself, Urobuchi wrote her character to be pre-F/Z Urobuchi.

>I've often written pieces that didn't have a perfect ending, but by the last chapter the protagonist would still possess a belief that 'Although there will be many hardships to come, I still have to hold on'.

It's not a coincidence that his answer to "Q2: Say something to transformed Homura-chan!" in the theater pamphelt was

>The road ahead is full of hardships. Ganbaru!

I know people translate ganbaru as 'good luck', but a more accurate definition is "to commit oneself fully to a task and to bring that task to an end." That was Homura's victory and when Rebellion ends, it's expected that she will see things through to the end and overcome.

Now, Rebellion is behind us and they have a new project coming up sometime in the next decade, so we know things will have to change and I agree with that pyhrric victory assessment. At some point, we will likely have Madoka save Homura from herself.

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>>2310487
>At some point, we will likely have Madoka save Homura from herself.


>tfw you live off angst
>tfw Homura would be completely ruined for you if she were in a happy, healthy place/relationship.

>>2310484
Imagine sex between these two. Breathing heavily as they caress eachothers bodies, staring deeply in eachothers eyes and through their gasps debating the kind of relationship MadoHomu have.

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>>2310650
Relationship like this please.

>>2310487
>All these 'H's

>>2311043
Fuck you nee-san, I can't unsee this now!

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>>2311237

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>>2311238
This one was pretty lewd for Maitake.

>>2311239
He should go full lewd.
Maitake's MadoHomu is top tier

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>>2311239
Soul Gem play is lewd

>>2311244
What does the "kano" in Maitake's doujins supposed to mean? Kanojo?

Madoka Girlfriend
Homura Girlfriend
Ultimate Girlfriend
Devil Girlfriend
Witch Girlfriend
Lily Girlfriend
Fake Girlfriend
Forever Girlfriend

>>2311814
You got it.

Dont forget
Sachi (Child of Joy?) Girlfriend
Fallen Girlfriend
Ultimate Devil Girlfriend

>>2311834
I think Sachi is just 幸. Happy Girlfriend (dawww).

Maitake is the best forever.

>>2312820
that QBbunny is fucking terrifying.

>>2312820
>Homu losing spaghetti over a rabbit Madoka

>>2312825
>I've always wanted to spend time with Madoka fucking like rabbits, but this is a little...

>>2312824
It's fucking adorable is what it is.

>>2312836
Shut up cthulhu.

>>2312820
WTF that QB bunny is all wrong.

>>2312825
Homura would lose her spaghetti over any form of Madoka.

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>>2312858
I guess

>>2312839
Bunbey warms my heart. I don't know why, I just really like him.

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>>2312873
QB himself is the cutest thing

>>2312873
You're falling for his trap.

>>2312875
QB is basically a middle-aged salaryman who just has a job to do, but his job is being an evil magical girl mascot instead of writing reports and he's perpetually confused about all that weird adolescent girl behavior.

His "I don't get humans" shtick is just his way of saying "youngsters these days, they have no manners at all".

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>>2312894
He's not even a bad guy. I would even support him if his plans did not involve making cute lesbian magical girls suffer

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Kyubey's just one of the girls now.

>>2309312
>>2309313
>>2309314
>>2309318

Sadpanda please?

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I really like Mami/Kyouko.

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This Sayaka be EXTRA THICC.

https://m.imgur.com/a/8a2Y5

Valentines day KO by Maitake.

Did I miss the scan nee-san dropping off Ochikano and Sachikano in the last thread?

>>2313165
Mami is for Homuing

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>>2313318
ahahahah

>>2313199
>>2313200
>>2313201
Artist?

https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/towakano

These just don't stop coming out.

>>2313534
I use my scanner at work and things have been busier than usual. I'll get them scanned when I can.

>>2313619
That one has been done for awhile on Danbooru.

>>2313619
>>2313318

The Dokidoki life of Madokami and Homucifer should just be an anime.

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>>2313619
>a (lewd) pink scene.
Goddamn it.

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>>2313607
@hano_24jjj

It's gonna suck when all of maitake got translated and we got left is shipping wars again.

>>2313667
Saint Young Men's, but with MadoHomu?

Urobuchi would approve.

>>2313918
There's still plenty of untranslated Ayane doujinshi
>TranslationsNeverEver.jpeg

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>Kyouko's witch is named Ophelia
>Girl who kills herself and drowns
>Kyouko willingly dies and "drowns" in the fight with Oktavia

I feel like an idiot for not making the connection for so long

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>>2314220
Did you just finish Hamlet?

>>2314242
No, I read it years ago for the first time, and again about a year ago. I went in thinking it'd be overrated, but it absolutely deserves its place in lit. canon.. I just didn't make the connection.

>>2314208
Would be amazing, but I won't hold my breath. Ayane doujin are notoriously difficult to typeset.

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I just want more stuff form Fukutarou & Fumiko.

>>2314251
The guy who did Ririkano won't do hentai. I don't know much about Neo Zeed, but they haven't done hentai in the past either. Tigris would probably cost a fortune.

>>2314261
Looks like they've done hentai before https://exhentai.org/?f_search=neozeed

>>2314280
Finger crossed then!

There's a lot of good HomuMado wallpaper out there, but so much of it is sad/dramatic/etc.

Can any of you nee-san post cute ones?

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>>2314426
It's actually pretty difficult to find things that are landscape.

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>b-b-but Madoka isn't alpha as fuck

>>2315126
lol that the shitty reddit scanlators are already plastering URLs on their stuff. they grow so fast.

>>2315336
Yeah, it's pretty bad.

>>2315336
http://m.imgur.com/a/jeG63
Speak of the devil, new MadoHomu (not Maitake).

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>>2315440

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>>2315502
lazy

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>>2315440

>Well I've got some life experience.
>Life experience? Experience repeatedly not confessing, giving up and turning into a witch, you mean?

Why is Homuhomu bullying Sayaka so good?

>>2316315
Because that's what she deserves.

>>2315440
I don't know what I did to deserve this influx of new MadoHomu, but I wish I did so I could keep doing it.

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>>2316343
You aren't wrong

>>2316350
Anything is possible with a wish!

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>>2316363
Kyubey pls go and stay go.

>>2316350
Gotta say, I'm also pretty happy with these recent developments.

Not that I don't like KyouSaya, but that pairing seems to get more than any other PMMM ship. It's nice to have new homumado stuff.

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>>2316350
Reddit. It's the downside of our wish.

>>2316376
>KyouSaya gets more
Eh, not really. It's more KyouSayafags tend to actually buy and scan their stuff. There are a lot of artists outside of Maitake and Ayane, but they're the most likely to be uploaded. It also doens't help that a lot of the newer MadoHomu doujinshi creators don't puttheir stuff on melon books. There's a few that I really want to pick up, but they're Comiket only.

-boss...I think i've just found Yuri Heaven. HOMUMADO INFLUX! Send for the rest of the Diamond Dogs!

>>2316410
Stop.

>>2316410
pls go and stay go

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>>2316392
>Reddit. It's the downside of our wish.

Dammit Kyubey.

>>2316315
Because it lets Homuhomu be the cold bitch she is outside of Madoka's orbit.

I like it when Sayaka gives as good as she gets, though. They make a good comedy duo.

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God, talk like adults please.

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>>2316498
I don't know, I prefer that Sayaka you get at the end of Rebellion, where she's completely and utterly powerless against Homucifer, but still has this burning will to oppose her. But angst is my life source.

Comedic duo HomuSaya is good too.

>>2316505
You don't like Homuhomu? Homurin. Homu-tan.

I think the Kanos are cute doujins but goddamn are we ever getting a lewd doujin again?

This one is still the best

https://exhentai.org/g/536529/23ba8251e6/

>>2316509
>You don't like Homuhomu? Homurin. Homu-tan.
I'm talking shit like this >>2316410, retard.

>>2316512
Rude.

>>2316510
The world needs more Mami x Nagisa doujins.

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>>2316509
>I don't know, I prefer that Sayaka you get at the end of Rebellion, where she's completely and utterly powerless against Homucifer, but still has this burning will to oppose her. But angst is my life source.

Best Sayaka is the one halfway through Rebellion, when Homu finally understands that something's wrong.

She's actually competent, then, and certainly calmer, but there's still a sense of cockiness and self-assured righteousness in her speech to Homura about how everything might be better to be left alone. The very fact that she knew to stop Homu's shield, and the super cool presentation of Oktavia in the puddle was very "invincible hero"-like, which seemed like what she'd failed to be in the series proper. It was like, after knowing what happened in the other timelines, she actually sat down and examined her life (or un-life) and grew as a character.

I never understood why Sayaka was so hated by the fandom. Not when Mami is worst girl

>>2316697
>I never understood why Sayaka was so hated by the fandom
Because she has the gall to react to her life falling apart like a normal human being.

>>2316702
>Because she has the gall to react to her life falling apart like a normal human being.
It's the Shinji thing all over again, then. People who don't like characters for acting like they should in these situations are the plebiest of plebs.

>>2316702
I actually have no issues with Sayaka in the show at all, I completely empathise with her predicament. I think it was obnoxious fans that put me off her in fanworks.

>>2316711
>People who don't like characters for acting like they should in these situations are the plebiest of plebs.

But no one has a problem with Madoka.

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>>2316702
>>2316711
God damn Sayakafags enjoy your rant.

>Your friend also likes the same boy and is going to actually confess instead of beating around the bush
>You were put in a nearly immortal body and granted any wish you wanted in exchange for fighting monsters
>life falling apart

Even from a very realistic point of view, Sayaka does not react like a normal human being. She throws herself into the depression, not to mention that really, she is just a massive fucking coward who uses the excuse of being a magical girl to still not confess to the boy she likes. Getting depressed? Sure. Falling so far into despair that you proceede to slowly kill yourself and likely killed two complete strangers on a train because they were douchebags? Nonsense.

Even the vast majority of people who lose a limb, find out they are dying from a terminal disease, or lose multiple family members don't get so unbearably woe-is-me, the world is so dark, teenage angst about their life.

>>2316697
>I never understood why Sayaka was so hated by the fandom
Because of the above, and her endless god damn arrogance.

>but there's still a sense of cockiness and self-assured righteousness
>she actually sat down and examined her life (or un-life) and grew as a character.

And this is why she is awful in Rebellion until the very end. That scene was literally the worst point for her character in the entire series, precisely because of that self-righteous "invincible hero" act. She didn't sit down and examine her life or grow at all. If she had, she would have gained some humility.

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>>2316726
Instead, despite being completely and utterly useless the entire series pre-Rebellion. Despite giving in to despair in such weak, melodramatic circumstances while every other magical girl fought on. Despite getting not only herself, but also Kyouko killed and leaving Homura and Madoka to fight Walpurgis alone... She had the fucking nerve to show up in Rebellion after being saved by Madoka, and learning (by virtue of being part of the Law) that Homura had been fighting alone for years watching all of them die again and again and go "HAHA, I KNOW SOMETHING YOU DON'T KNOW~" Because she couldn't put aside her petty attitude for 10 minutes to not be a complete ass.

Which is even worse when it's not like she did anything to find it out. It isn't like she grappled with the puzzle of the fake city and figured it out first, she was told everything that was going on and then given a second life (because she threw away the first one) and power in order to help Madoka out. Rebellion was her chance to redeem herself for all the shit she caused, and before she had done anything at all to do so, she was already being arrogant again.

I can't think of a situation in which it is more inappropriate to being a cocky dick than the one she was in, and yet she shows no fucking humility or remorse. She is terrible and belongs in a trashcan.

>>2316722
I've seen some anons have a go at her before.

>>2316726
>Even from a very realistic point of view, Sayaka does not react like a normal human being

Not to mention that this is the sequence of events even before the reveal at the end of episode 6.

>Episode 1
>Learn about meguca
>Episode 2
>Learn meguca always equals death
>Have your mentor tell you that you probably shouldn't make a wish
>Understand that you really should make a wish
>Episode 3
>Watch your mentor die in front of you
>Episode 4
>Know exactly what will likely happen if you make a wish
>Make wish
>Episode 5
>Play hero and be as self-righteous as possible
>Get ass kicked by veteran magical girl
>Episode 6
>Get ass mad that you were saved by someone you hate
>Get ass mad that other people who experienced are better than you
>Get ass mad at Madoka for suggesting you try to find common ground with other girls
>Get ass mad at Kyubey for learning that the other girls are stronger than you
>Learn about the secret of soul gems
>Episode 7
>Refuse to find common ground with red head who is at this point almost certainly right
>Refuse to use grief seeds

This isn't even including her fallout with Hitomi. Sayaka acts as a tragic character, but not a realistic character. Madoka is by far the most realistic character among them.

>Sees mentor die
>Cries and wallows in depression
>Sees best friend die
>Cries and wallows in depression
>Learns about the secret of meguca
>Despite the pain, makes a decisive decision

Madoka is clearly the Shinji of the group. "Make a contract with me" might as well be "Get in the fucking robot".

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>>2316726
Nice rant. Still a better character than Mami, senpai.

>>2316722
I find it odd as well, actually. And I love Madoka.

>>2316726
>Even from a very realistic point of view, Sayaka does not react like a normal human being. She throws herself into the depression, not to mention that really, she is just a massive fucking coward who uses the excuse of being a magical girl to still not confess to the boy she likes.
This all sounds very human to me. People bringing depression onto themselves, willfully or not? People being cowards? People using excuses in order to not face their fears? Very human.

>don't get so...teenage angst about their life.
But this is just it. She's a teenage girl. Literally chosen, as the others, because she's emotionally vulnerable. That's quite literally the incubator M.O.

>Think you're doing something good but all your time is taken up by being on the verge of dying, fighting monsters no one can understand
>Love someone, but would feel physically useless/unfaithful(?) being with them because the method by which you'd show your love - your body - is barely yours anymore and the disconnect between body and soul is a disconnect between you and the person you love
>None of your hard work or sacrifice for the world is known, and you see terrible people that you're working to protect.

I really don't blame her.

>>2316728
>cocky dick
How apt, since she's the only meguca that craved it.

>>2316742
Sayaka was pure, Ume.

>>2316741
>Literally chosen, as the others, because she's emotionally vulnerable. That's quite literally the incubator M.O.

I never really got the feeling she was being chosen by Kyubey. She states herself in episode 2 that her life is so comfortable she doesn't even know why she's getting the wish. She's targeted because she's close to Madoka and we see Kyubey try to use that against Madoka multiple times. I think this is why Sayaka and her drama are less sympathetic. Sure, her problems are relatable, but when stacked up against everyone else, she's not terribly sympathetic.

As long as we're using Evangelion as a point of reference, Shinji has a shitty father and is forced into a world that he is in no way prepared to deal with. He reserved, introverted, and lonely. No one gives a fuck about him and treats his pain as kiddy shit. His only use and purpose is being the pilot to an EVA. And he's not prepared for it.

>>2316756
>She's targeted because she's close to Madoka and we see Kyubey try to use that against Madoka multiple times.
While I think you're right in a sense, I don't think it's this cut and dry. Sayaka never told Kyubey what she wanted to wish for, or what she was going through, and yet he showed up at exactly the right time in exactly the right place to get her wish. He knows more than he lets on and, despite his lack of emotion, obviously does understand human actions far more than he lets on.

Kamijou was an obvious sore spot for Sayaka and did, in large part, lead both to her contract and her transition into despair.

>Sure, her problems are relatable, but when stacked up against everyone else, she's not terribly sympathetic.
I don't know - in a sense, being the most "normal"/"happy" of the group and still being taken in just goes to show how vulnerable all of Earth's little girls are. It makes sense that a dying girl like Mami or a poor girl like Kyouko might contract, but when a stable/comfortable girl does so, it leads one to see the Incubators as an even more widespread threat.

I didn't necessarily mean that Shinji's situation and Sayaka's are the same - rather, that these are two kids heavily affected by the life-threatening work they take part in and mentally/emotionally ruined by it. But because neither acts like a hotblooded TTGL pilot, idiots call them "weak"/"cowardly"/etc,

>>2316726
The unrealistic element comes into play in that one cannot be physically robbed of their humanity. A major component of her angst is her soul was ripped out of her body and stuck in a piece of jewelry while telepathically controlling her body like a flesh puppet. Besides such a scenario being inherently unrealistic, one may have have a nonchalant attitude about it in that she still looks human and thinks like a human and can act human, but that's dismissing the fact that she was deceived into having her body violated. And yes, that's meant to sound rapey. And despite her happy-go-lucky demeanor, she has rather low self-esteem. She gets sick magical powers out of the deal, but realizing she's been duped out of her humanity gives her regrets.

There's another reason why she doesn't confess, that being the doubt in her mind regarding her intentions. She realizes she made her wish in part because she wanted Kyosuke to fall for her, and feels guilty for acting on selfish intent. Combine that with the ideological conflict with Kyoko, her sense of duty, and life-and-death scenarios, the stress is simply too much for a normal girl to handle.

>>2316793
>I don't think it's this cut and dry.
For Sayaka it isn't. For Kyubey it seems to be. His first action after that was to go recruit Kyouko and force a confrontation that almost leads to Madoka forming a contract. Now then again, she is contracted in the new universe, but I also feel the new universe worked on a different dynamic. The karmic potential of the girls was largely irrelevant to his contracting at that point.

>But because neither acts like a hotblooded TTGL pilot, idiots call them "weak"/"cowardly"/etc,

But Sayaka isn't weak because she isn't hot blooded. She's defined by her brashness and stubborness. She never turns down a fight and is one of the most confrontational megucas in the series, second only to her red headed lover, yet is the easiest to break. She isn't broken because of her life threatening work, she's broken because she constructed a narrative in her head that saw her as a powerful hero protecting Mitakihara despite it being painfully clear that heroism got you nowhere. When someone loudly and arrogantly claiming to be a hero is broken so easily, the audience isn't expected to sympathize with them.

>>2316855
>For Sayaka it isn't. For Kyubey it seems to be
But that's what we're arguing at the moment - how being a magical girl affected Sayaka and lead to her despair (and whether it's sympathetic). Whether or not Kyubey cared about Sayaka (in the sense that he specifically chose her) doesn't matter. What matters is that he knew what, and how, would lead to the despair. And it did. Sayaka couldn't handle not being "human" once she learned the truth, and it lead to despair on multiple levels. She couldn't handle hunting monsters, and she eventually turns against the very world she swore to protect. It's pretty heartbreaking if you ask me.

>she's broken because she constructed a narrative in her head that saw her as a powerful hero protecting Mitakihara despite it being painfully clear that heroism got you nowhere.
>When someone loudly and arrogantly claiming to be a hero is broken so easily, the audience isn't expected to sympathize with them.
Totally disagreed. It's a different kind of sympathy, but sympathy nonetheless.

She's not Achilles - actually powerful and brought down by his own decision (he knew fighting Hector would lead to his death, IIRC, but had to do it out of honor).

She's closer to Suzaku Kururugi: she wants to change things from the inside (her complaints about Homura's selfishness, and then later Kyouko's), she set up this whole idea in her head that she's a hero, but when push comes to shove she's still doing it to cover up for bad personal issues (making a wish for Kyousuke, then losing him vs. Suzaku killing his own dad because he thought it was the right thing to do) and they both suffer for it. But I wouldn't say that Sayaka isn't sympathetic. She truly believes she's doing the right thing.

>>2316886
>But that's what we're arguing at the moment
We're arguing why the fan base tends to shit on Sayaka and why you are a pleb who also doesn't like Shinji if you do so. Not why her story is sad. I know why she's a tragic character and what her role in the story is. But "well written", "realistic" and "flawed" aren't synonyms for likable. Hypocrisy, arrogance, self-righteousness, and cowardice are flawed and realistic and are easy ways to bring out the depths of a character, but they are also unlikable characteristics. Sayaka is less sympathetic because she doesn't die for honor, she doesn't die trying to do the right thing, she doesn't make consequential decisions that she has to live with, she dies while failing to live out her ideals.


Urobuchi isn't Anno. Sayaka is not the main character of these works.The character that soldiers on in his works is the one exalted by his works. This is why Madoka and Homura are the heroes. The character that breaks in the face of hardship is the one who is relentlessly bullied. This is why Sayaka and even Homura, during the first hour or so of Rebellion, are the one's being bullied.

>Hector dies because he holds fast to his honor.
>Suzaku makes multiple consequential decisions and lives with them because he believed they were the right thing to do.
>Sayaka makes a wish for a boy that clearly doesnt like her

One of those is not like the other. The only thing that makes Sayaka's story sympathetic is that she's a dumb middle school girl who didn't deserve what happened to her. But using that exclusively ignores none of the other girls deserved what happened to them.

>>2316886
Different anon here.
I do find Sayaka sympathetic, but I don't think she truly believes she's doing the right thing in the moments people most often criticize her for. In the beginning Sayaka truly believed she was doing the right thing. However, as her situation became more difficult, that quickly transitioned into clinging to the idea she was doing the right thing because that's all she had left.

I feel this is an important part of why some people see her as mentally/emotionally weak. If someone imagines that Sayaka truly believes her own rhetoric, then they would expect her to derive more support/comfort from the zealous pursuit of her ideals. When she doesn't, they interpret that as being a result of her own weakness. Conversely, I interpret the scenario as Sayaka not truly believing her own rhetoric, but rather struggling with doubts about herself and what she's doing, and that is why it's so crushingly difficult for her.

>>2316929
>she dies while failing to live out her ideals
And she realizes this, yet chooses to cling on to her ideals until the bitter end. She knows that her ideals won't work in this reality. She knows that she's failed to be the hero. And yet she attempts to fulfill her duty until her body and soul give out. That she failed is tragic, but that she tried, that she maintained her dedication until it killed her, is what people consider admirable.

Think of it another way: pre-Rebellion, Homura basically failed. She didn't protect Madoka, rather Madoka saved her (again), and ended up effectively dead. But does that failure matter to the Homufag? No, because the admiration of her character comes from her undying devotion and inhuman resolve to endure her recurring hell in pursuit of her goal. Sayaka has a similar dedication of her entire being towards a goal, except that it's an ideology rather than a person. Yes, Homura's resolve is astronomically stronger, but even so, there is admiration in weak characters attempting to stand strong.

>>2316834
basically this, also hitomi gave her basically no time to confess,

>>2317007
>And she realizes this, yet chooses to cling on to her ideals until the bitter end.... that she maintained her dedication until it killed her, is what people consider admirable.
But she didn't. She died knowing she failed, that she just ended up hurting her best friend, that she couldn't live up to her ideals and even admitted Kyouko was right in the end. Hell, she regretted saving Hitomi at one point. She's mad that she has to protect a city filled with 'bad' people. She's mad that the universe isn't fair. There's nothing admirable about her death in episode 8. When she's taken to the Law of Cycles, the best thing one can say is that she accepted her life as a worth cost to heal Kyosuke's arm. But as an anon above mentioned, being saved had nothing to do with her own actions. All that showed her was her wish had meaning in the end.

>Sayaka has a similar dedication of her entire being towards a goal
How? She doesn't have a "goal", she just wants to play hero and breaks the second things became difficult. She isn't dedicated to her ideal.

>Homura
She refuses to drop and die just because she failed. That's admirable. Sayaka on the other hand has to be shown a future by a god-like being for her to not regret making her life choices. That's touching, but it's not particularly admirable. The only redemption there was she accepted her death, which isn't as much sticking to her values as it is a consolation prize.

>>2317028
cont.
Once again though, this isn't about why there are people who like Sayaka. You don't have to prove to me why you like Sayaka. I understand why you like Sayaka, even if I dont agree with it. This is about why most of the fan base does not like her and has strong opinions about her. I and a few others have laid out why we personally find her insufferable. You can't make ground by comparing her to Homura because clearly people are able to see a massive distinction between the two.

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Two of the constant discussions that go on around here are Domdoka or Sayaka.

>>2317033
I think that's a lot better than the "my ship is better than your ship" arguments that go on in many of the persistent threads.

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Chinese forum posted a fun, new KyouSaya scans. Too bad the scan quality is trash.

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>>2317173
https://tieba.baidu.com/p/5081762761

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>>2317173
>>2317175
It's fine, thanks for the share. Love me some Bakadomo.

>>2317033
Domdoka is a great conversation to have.

Let's have it again.

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>>2317232
Mah nee-san.

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>>2317033
So for the sake of efficiency we should combine the conversations and talk about Madoka domming Sayaka.

>>2317250
As efficient as that may be, I feel like Madoka has learned enough business stuff from her mom to be professional enough to not bang the secretary.

>>2317253
She clearly learned to bang the nerd with glasses from her mom. Both Tomohisa and Saotome.

>>2317250
There's that one doujin where Sayaka was forced to cosplay Homura within the Law of Cycles. Can't quite locate it for the moment.

>>2317232
God no.

Domdoka discussions go one of three ways, all of them annoying and tedious

>Madoka isn't a dom, Madoka is a dom ad infinitum
>If Madoka's a dom, then Homu literally never wants anything for herself and is the most pathetic girl in the world
>If Madoka isn't a dom, then Homura is a near-abusive, controlling monster

And so on.

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>>2317345
>Homura is a near-abusive, controlling monster
You say that like it's a bad thing.

>>2317352
It's more of an unbelievable thing.

The only thing that Homura abuses is herself.

>>2317360
What about QB?

>>2317360
I bet she abuses herself in more ways than one.

>>2317360
But if she is the universe, then everyone is her and a target for abuse.

>>2317028
Sayaka resolves to kill witches until the stress kills her. She knows that she's failed to live up to her ideals, but she chooses to pursue them knowing that it will kill her. She fails not out of a lack of dedication, but rather a lack of strength.

>>2317030
I'm actually a Homufag playing devil's advocate. Sayaka has plenty of flaws, but I think generally a lot of people are overly dismissive about her merits.

>>2317378
Too bad she switches to killing humans instead.

>>2316702
If we wanted to watch people react like humans to their lives falling apart, we would watch ourselves.

If characters in escapist entertainment become too real, then it stops bring an escape.

>>2317462
Go watch cute girls doing cute things. Cosmic psychological horror isn't supposed to be escapist entertainment.

>>2317464
Then why do nee-sans cling to MadoHomu so hard? Why does the fluffy, too sweet for this world girl who's juuuuust assertive enough to be a manic pixie dream girl without the manic hook up with the antisocial, dowdy nerd? Why does the closest thing the series have to a Chad get shat on the most with visceral hatred?

If MadoMagi were truly horror, there would be no survivors. It'd be Homulilly end or Persephone's Waltz or some shit. At absolute least it'd end like End of Eva or with Homu resetting and screaming bloody murder in her hospital bed.

It's cute girls doing cute things in an uncute world. Just dark enough to convince imoutos like you otherwise, though.

>>2317469
Rebellion ending with Homura dancing with herself and falling off the metaphorical cliff is pretty bleak.

>>2317469
The horror is that the whole multiverse is slowly into some cosmic horror because of Homura's actions.

>>2317469
Because the whole point of the show is to strike a balance between grimdark and hope.
>It's cute girls
Yes.
>doing cute things
No.
>in an uncute world
Yes.

>>2317469
>Then why do nee-sans cling to MadoHomu so hard?
Because they don't understand what they're watching.

>>2317464
Nee-sans original argument is dumb, but let's not pretend Madoka isn't escapism.

>>2317469
It's dark fantasy with horror elements. MadoHomu is supposed to be one of the few bright spots of the franchise to balance out the suffering in between. And you're right about it not being too dark. If the new project is pure suffering, it will likely be offset by a MadoHomu end.

>>2317474
2deep4u Nietzche symbolism.

>>2317475
You could take Homura out of the story and it'd still be cosmic horror. You just wouldn't have Rebellion.

>>2317509
That's the best way to put it.

>>2317518
Nah, I'm aware of what I'm watching.

>>2317629
>let's not pretend Madoka isn't escapism
Any form of entertainment medium can be used as escapism by a consumer, but Madoka wasn't written to deliberately be escapist media.
>>2317629
>MadoHomu is supposed to be one of the few bright spots
I'd disagree somewhat. In the canon, most MadoHomu interactions involve Homura suffering, hell, some of the most dramatic moments of the show are MadoHomu. We just latch onto an idealized version of it because we want to see them get the happy end they deserve after so much suffering. Of course, the creators are well aware of this and stuff as much fluffy MadoHomu into side material as possible.

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>>2317718
>Escapism: habitual diversion of the mind to purely imaginative activity or entertainment as an escape from reality or routine
>an activity or form of entertainment that allows people to forget about the real problems of life

It's anime. It was written to be entertaining. It's about little girls suffering at the hands of a bunny cat. It's escapism.

>I'd disagree somewhat.

Take MadoHomu out and nothing good at all happens in this series. Drama and pain are what make bright spots good. Hence why they're called bright spots. Madoka's relationship with her mom is a bright spot and all of thise are aimed at Madoka growing up, becoming an adult in the face of adversity, and lead her toward her sacrifice. Sayaka healing Kyousuke's arm and being saved at the end is a bright spot inspite of her literally dying for it. Homura resolving to live on until the end is a bright spot even though she loses everything. These scenes are made better and more touching by the drama revolving around them. The naked space hug and Madoka coming to understand Homura is literally refered to as "the miracle" by Urobuchi and one of the most touching moments of the series. Why is MadoHomu so present in Rebellion? Why is Rebellion's ending painful? Because as Butcher says, he reversed the miracle. A tragic couple is not a bad couple and does not orevent them from being one of the few bright spots, especially considering this series we're in.

>We just latch onto an idealized version of it because we want to see them get the happy end they deserve after so much suffering

No shit. Because it was intentional that viewers form an attachment. I mean the flower garden issue and Madoka's loniliness are focused on for 2 minutes of a 4 minite concept movie. There's active hope for them to end each others loniliness in the next project, though whether that will happen is yet to be seen.

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>>2317759
cont
It's also probably important to note that MadoHomu in my mind has always been more pic related than the usual fun fluff, though I believe they are easily capable of fun fluff. I always enjoyed the tragic aspect.

http://m.imgur.com/a/pEPqF

MORE MAITAKE

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Daily reminder that most people fell for the 'Madoka is a good girl' meme.

>>2316929
>>2316932
I suppose all this comes down to where one's sympathies lie.

While I don't think she's the most sympathetic character in the cast, I do think that the ideas of
>she dies while failing to live out her ideals.
>clinging to the idea she was doing the right thing because that's all she had left.
Are certainly worthy of sympathy, and very tragic.

>>2317759
I don't think there's much point in defining all fantasy as escapism. Even with the scifi magic, the show deals with serious human themes like the loss of ideals, failure and depresion.

>>2317462
>If characters in escapist entertainment become too real, then it stops bring an escape.

>watching media as a sense of escape only
>not appreciating a narrative as separate from you, the viewer, and seeing the characters and their struggle as independent

PMMM can be escapism if you really want (though a series like this certainly isn't the best place to get that) but like many better pieces of media/art/lit/etc. it's better appreciated as a narrative by itself without viewer "participation" like escapism or self-insertion.

This doesn't mean that you shouldn't feel sympathy or relate to the characters, but that they should "exist" outside of you, the viewer.

Only partially related, but it irks me like nothing else when people claim that both/either
>Media should never be negative, because making someone feel negative emotions (anger/sadness/etc.) makes it bad
>Negative feelings are always bad, and can never be productive, relate-able, or worth watching because if you feel bad for even half a second everything is wrong.
New Sincerity is somehow worse than fucking Postmodernism.

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>>2317931
An unpleasant reality is most people live boring, pointless lives with no true sense of ideals. A universe where magical lesbians have strong attachment to their personal values and die to cynicism or change the universe through their commitment and will power in a highly emotional manner is escapism for a bored desk jockey like me.
>>2317948
Does anyone really watch Madoka and think "gee this would be better without tragedy." I took anon's comment to mean we don't have to like Sayaka just because she is "realistic".

>>2318032
>Does anyone really watch Madoka and think "gee this would be better without tragedy."
I'm sure there are some out there who do, actually. Never doubt how stupid people might be. Really, it's only a small jump from "wow, these cute/funny fanworks are nice" to "why isn't the whole series like this?"

>I took anon's comment to mean we don't have to like Sayaka just because she is "realistic".
Even then, I think the opinion is wrong. Not that not liking Sayaka is wrong, but that not liking her for that reason is wrong. Pretty much all the girls are fairly realistic.

>Mami
The desire for comfort and support when one is the giver of such, rather than the receiver, and a sense of loneliness because of that is pretty realistic. There are certainly people like that.

>Kyouko
A loss of faith and an escape to selfishness because one was burned when doing something selfless is realistic.

Perhaps the only two that aren't are Madoka and Homura, and that's mostly because you can't really take them out of their situations. Homura's discipline and resolve are directly linked to her saving Madoka. Madoka's selflessness and sacrifice are directly tied with her ability to be a magical girl (not the selfless intent, but the actual actions she can take towards the intent).

>>2317759
>entertaining fantasy is automatically escapism
Not necessarily. When a character's struggles become relatable to your own, if the problems of fiction reflect reality, then it is no longer escapism. Obviously, this is dependent on how the viewer processes the media, but Madoka was written with this in mind, as opposed to a self-insert power fantasy or a fluffy SoL where problems are either trivial or magically resolved, or some kind of schadenfreude.

>Take MadoHomu out and nothing good at all happens in this series
More like nothing happens at all in the series since everyone would die in the first timeline. But to examine MadoHomu in the series, we have:
>Madoka saves Homura from a witch
Bright spot.
>Homura wishes to protect Madoka
Bittersweet, Homura grows a pair of ovaries but it took Madoka's death to make it happen.
>Homura training with Madoka and Mami
The one time Homura was actually, truly happy.
>Homura learns the truth when Madoka becomes a witch
>Madoka kills Mami to save Homura
>Madoka's dying request is asking the impossible, but Homura is incapable of declining
>Madoka's secondary dying request is for Homura to mercy kill her, which she does
>Homura acts coldly towards Madoka, putting a wall between them in order to prevent Madoka from sacrificing herself for Homura
>Madoka breaks down that wall every time anyways, getting her killed and thwarting Homura
>the only time they hug anymore is when Homura has a minor breakdown and starts crying because that's the closest thing Homura can get to emotional support
Terribly tragic.
>Madoka becomes god and naked lesbian space hugs
Bittersweet, because even though the cycle is broken, and the both of them and the world are saved, Homura has failed (again), Madoka ends up effectively dead (again), and now, on top of that, Homura is robbed of her reason to live.

>>2318198
And in Rebellion:
>Madoka and Homura do cute magical things with friends
Bright spot at first quickly turned bittersweet since it's Homura's ideal fantasy that can never be.
>the entire rest of Rebellion is Homura suffering while trying to protect Madoka who is mostly oblivious
>when Madoka comes to save Homura, Homura rejects that salvation to protect Madoka
In the end, it's a win for Madoka in that her happiness is protected, a win (of the very Pyrrhic variety) for Homura, in that her goal is achieved but she sacrificed her own happiness to attain it, and an utter defeat for MadoHomu since Homura deliberately dissolved their relationship.

MadoHomu is, bar nothing but Homura herself, the most tragic aspect of the series. It is so beloved because it is a beautiful tragedy, and because of the potential to be happy. I think what you're getting at is that MadoHomu is a source of hope in the series, but in and of itself, it is exceptionally (but not excessively) dark.

>>2318198
>MadoHomu represents hope in a series otherwise devoid of it
>This isn't a bright spot
>When MadoHomu is severed, we feel hopeless and things are bleak
>Entire show is about hoping in the face of hopelessness

I don't really understand where getting wires crossed or why you feel the need to repeat the themes of the series to me. The naked space hug and the promise they'd be reunited one day was bittersweet, but it was still a bright spot. Homura could have easily lost her memory and have no recollection of her time with Madoka. It's not like we haven't had endings like that before. What matters is the final result to be honest. The road being difficult and hopeless just makes the idea of eventual reconciliation all the sweeter.

>>2318232
>>MadoHomu represents hope in a series otherwise devoid of it
And simultaneously the greatest tragedy in a series full of it.
>What matters is the final result to be honest
It's not unreasonable to assume a "good ending" but as it stands, the "final result" is eternal separation of lovers.

>>2318243
>as it stands, the "final result" is eternal separation of lovers
But we know for certain Rebellion isn't the final work. And Butcher wrote Rebellion to be as open ended as possible, with things being neither too good or too bad. Paraphrasing his own words, you could make whatever continuation you want from it.

>>2318198
>Bittersweet, because even though the cycle is broken, and the both of them and the world are saved, Homura has failed (again), Madoka ends up effectively dead (again), and now, on top of that, Homura is robbed of her reason to live.
Having just re-watched the series, this really stood out.

From a utilitarian perspective, sure - Madoka's sacrifice is a wonderful thing.

But in terms of the characters? Especially Homura, who more or less becomes the protagonist from episode 10 on, retroactively (and even more so in re-watches) - the ending is terribly tragic. After so much suffering and pain and failure Homura's "victory" is very little.

>Madoka is more than just dead, she doesn't even really exist
>No one else remembers her but Homura (hey, let's alienate the already-most-alienated girl in the show)
>The only promise she has is that she has to wait to die until she might see Madoka again
I absolutely, 100% see why Homura went full Akuma in Rebellion. She had to fix such a mistake.

>>2318243
To be honest nee-san, it seems like your pushing your own cynicism and pessimism on the franchise's favorite ship.

>>2318250
>I absolutely, 100% see why Homura went full Akuma in Rebellion. She had to fix such a mistake.
That amd Wraith Arc removed almost all ambiguity from the betrayal.

>>2318252
Again, I'm taking MadoHomu as what it is, rather than what it could/will be.
>>2318252
Hardly. MadoHomu is my definitive OTP and I do hope for such an endgame, and I'm not denying the hope it represents, but the events it causes in the series are more often than not dark and tragic.

>>2318258
>Again, I'm taking MadoHomu as what it is, rather than what it could/will be.
Sure. And I would agree, but the problem is even Shinbo and Urobuchi didn't give, let alone have, the answer to what it is/would/will be at the time. It's open ended, not definitive, and invites speculation. They're enemies, but with known character traits, I never thought it would be eternal. It's a declaration for the conflict yet to come a la Apocalypse of Devil Man, not the final death blow dealt from one lover to another.
And like I said, I love the tragic aspects because it makes the happy aspects all the more sweeter.

>>2318272
If you take Rebellion's ending as status quo, that means Homura would break Madoka in half every time she remembered the Law of Cycles, and otherwise deny herself of Madoka's companionship. Obviously, that status quo will be broken in the new project, but that's not established canon yet. I love the tragic aspects as well, but the issue is that the happy aspects are either short lived or overshadowed, for now.

>>2318279
>Obviously, that status quo will be broken in the new project, but that's not established canon yet.

Sure it is. Out of the mouth of the devil herself. Homura explicitly states that there will be a time when Madoka will reawaken and stay that way - it's when they'll "become enemies".

At the end of Rebellion we saw Homura stop this once, but her own words say it will certainly happen entirely one day.

>>2318291
How does that preclude the notion of Homura ripping her in half, returning her to human form, and repeating the cycle endlessly? That seems like enmity to me.

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I stopped worrying about MadoHomu after Wraith Arc and seeing all the wraith shit in the new project. I'm extremely worried about the integrity and quality of the plot of the new work for the same exact reasons.

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>>2318304
The way I understood the scene and the quote was that that wouldn't work one day - that when Madoka finally regained her godhood and memories she wouldn't let Homura do that again because she has a responsibility as the LoC.

The only reason it really worked the first time was because Homu surprised Madoka when she grabbed her hands. It won't happen again.

>>2318309
Agreed on both parts. The actual writing and plot of the WA is bad, even if its implications - especially those regarding MadoHomu love - are just what I want.

To see that the concept movie is seemingly taking a number of things from the WA makes me both excited (perhaps a very direct, official MadoHomu love confession) and scared (because what if those same retarded issues the WA had are brought in?).

Thankfully Shinbo(?) and Urobutcher will almost certainly be the ones writing the new movie, and not the person who wrote the WA. Even with WA concepts, I trust them.

It's a real shame that Majuuka is super cute, because her story is terrible.

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>>2318250
Nothing. Wrong.

>>2318317
>when Madoka finally regained her godhood and memories she wouldn't let Homura do that again because she has a responsibility as the LoC.

Not them, but I see no way to do this that isn't contrived bullshit.

Madoka at her absolute strongest, fully integrated with the LoC, was completely powerless to do anything to stop Homura, even when Homura had just stepped past the boundry of being a witch and they were in a regular universe where LoC was the dominant magical force.

How on Earth is Madoka supposed to believably stand against fully devil Homura, who now holds the LoC contained, is able to sever someone's connection to the LoC with an effortless clap of her hands, has suppressed an awakening Madoka with a hug, and has re-written the entirety of the universe to her own vision of what it should be?

It isn't a matter of "letting" Homura. She shouldn't stand any chance. It's like someone losing a knife fight and then coming back for round two with their bare fists, but the person they lost against is now sitting in an armored tank.

>>2318317
>The only reason it really worked the first time was because Homu surprised Madoka when she grabbed her hands. It won't happen again.
Madoka obviously isn't going to let Homura do it, but Homura is going to do it by force. Pun not intended. I interpreted it as a metaphorical tug-of-war between their intertwined strings of fate. Madoka has so much magical power because Homura's time loops revolved the universe around her, and since the two of them are uniquely connected, Homura was able to seize that power for herself. A subsequent fight could reverse that, but Homura is going to be doing her damndest to prevent that from happening.

I have to agree on all that about Wraith Arc, though.

>>2318320
>>Madoka at her absolute strongest, fully integrated with the LoC, was completely powerless to do anything to stop Homura, even when Homura had just stepped past the boundry of being a witch and they were in a regular universe where LoC was the dominant magical force.

I get what you're saying, but there is something of an "out" for the writers - as far as I know, we don't actually know how Homura separated Madoka in the first place, do we?

The sequence of events was
>Madoka goes to take Homu away
>Homu grabs Madoka's hands
>Madoka is surprised
>???
>World shatters like glass
>Madoka is split from godhood
But the actual rules/technique/whatever isn't known.

It could certainly get very contrived, but we simply don't know enough about how it happened to say that it'd be impossible for Madoka to take the power back either. Not that I think it'll be so easy.

>>2318324
>I interpreted it as a metaphorical tug-of-war between their intertwined strings of fate. Madoka has so much magical power because Homura's time loops revolved the universe around her, and since the two of them are uniquely connected, Homura was able to seize that power for herself. A subsequent fight could reverse that
This could be how it worked, but we really just don't know enough

>>2318250
If it weren't for the terrible form of ending a story with a suicide, I wouldn't have been surprised if Homu had shot her Soul Gem out at the end of the series.

It's not like suicidiality is new to her. Pre contract, she wanted to die without even getting Kissed. In Rebellion she commits symbolic suicide every 10 minutes it seems.

>>2318320
You are way the fuck overselling Akuhomu, sis. She shut down a confused Madoka starting to remember things with an awkward hug, gave Sayaka the clap for an undisclosed amount of time (doesn't she have minor memory rewriting powers in Wraith Arc) and caught human Madoka in a very large Witch Labyrinth.

>>2318317
>Shinbo
I've read some Kirara interviews and it seems that he's at least taking the new project pretty seriously. He hasn't made a single comment about "lol cash grab, strike while the iron is hot" like he did regularly before and after Rebellion. On Urobuchi's end, I'm interested because it's been years since he's done something as dark as Madoka. That's not even getting into how foreign his VN days seem. Dude even wrote a few happy endings. Maybe Godzilla later this year will be a return to form.

>>2318464
>caught human Madoka in a very large Witch Labyrinth

I wasn't referring to the setup to rebellion so much as the end. When Madoka comes to get Homura she is entirely the Law of Cycles in all her glory, an entity specifically designed by the first universe rewrite to destroy fallen magical girls, and she completely fails to stop herself being torn apart by a Homura who was only just falling beyond being a witch, and had only been self-aware as a witch for what, an hour or two at the most? Why would Madoka have better luck a second time in a universe that Homura controls so thoroughly that she's able to force the incubators into submission and real fear? Especially now that Homura is full transformed and settled in to her new powers.

Sayaka seems to indicate not just memory rewrites, but also genuinely not feeling any connection to the law anymore.Even if we assume it's just the former though, you're still talking about someone who was able to forcibly dispel a witch and rewrite the memories of someone under the LoC's protection, all with a simple gesture and near instantly. These aren't things to overlook, and I don't think I'm overselling anything. Homura is insanely powerful.

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I imagine this'll get some mileage.

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>>2318820

>>2318485
>I've read some Kirara interviews and it seems that he's at least taking the new project pretty seriously. He hasn't made a single comment about "lol cash grab, strike while the iron is hot" like he did regularly before and after Rebellion.
I think he respects the serie, or at least understands that it's not the kind of thing he can try to throw out willy nilly for money. Look at how long it took them to do the Kizu movies.

>Urobuchi's end, I'm interested because it's been years since he's done something as dark as Madoka.
Very true. But if the Concept movie says anything, it's that the new project isn't going to be all sunshine and rainbows.

Really, the fact that the happy-go-lucky world at the beginning of Rebellion gets destroyed may be symbolic in and of itself.

>>2318969
>Shinbo
I always viewed him as Micheal Bay with artistic standards. He considers himself a salesman, but takes the approach the product should be good if it is going to be sold. Contrasted of course with Iwakami, who is pretty much just everything wrong with Aniplex personfied.

>But if the Concept movie says anything, it's that the new project isn't going to be all sunshine and rainbows.

Oh very much and I would be disappointed if there was no heaping helping of suffering. I just meant that he seems to have grown as a writer and it will be interesting to see what direction he will take.

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>>2318981
>I always viewed him as Micheal Bay with artistic standards. He considers himself a salesman, but takes the approach the product should be good if it is going to be sold.
I'm an unabashed SHAFTfag so I have much more of a soft spot for him than I should. You're not wrong with that second part, though. He does want to make a good product, even if all he considers it is a product.

>Oh very much and I would be disappointed if there was no heaping helping of suffering. I just meant that he seems to have grown as a writer and it will be interesting to see what direction he will take.
I see what you mean now. The possibility of us getting an actual good end is definitely looking at least slightly higher.

I think what I'm afraid of most is this: Homura explicitly spelled out her love in Rebellion, which I didn't think would happen. I thought they'd always keep everything just barely not said.

This kind of opens us up to actual reciprocation from Madoka. But will they go this route? I'm almost more nervous now that it's a possibility, because that also means there's the possibility that it won't happen (when, before Rebellion, anything even slightly romantic might have been taken as a "hint", now that actual love is involved, the bar is "raised" in a way.). I don't think I'm explaining myself well

>>2318986
No that they've made Homura's feelings cleas, Madoka will have to reply to them somehow. Even not replying would basically mean rejection.

>>2318986
>>2319000
Homura's feelings
We have to remember that in terms of Homura's confession, Homura never confessed to Madoka. She stated the thing that the feeling motivating her was love. And she said this to Kyubey. Madoka does not know Homura's feelings nor does anyone else outside of the emotionless space rat. We can get into a discussion about the nature of Madoka's love is, but now that we're using the idea that Homura is trying to give Madoka "happiness", any ending in which Madoka states her definition of happiness involves being with Homura is one I would consider it enough. But on the otherhand, Homura at this point will not understand if things are not spelled out clearly for her. The fact Madoka's voice actor is more than ready to say it and that Wraith Arc describes the feelings as 'mutual' gives me hope that the she will say it outload. The Swan Lake motif seems to set it up for reciprocation.

That said, I believe fans wants an actual answer and that it'd be a cop out for them not to address it. If they didn't want to commit, they shouldn't have written themselves into this corner.

>>2319031
>I believe fans wants an actual answer and that it'd be a cop out for them not to address it. If they didn't want to commit, they shouldn't have written themselves into this corner.
That's pretty much what I was trying to describe in my post - the idea that they have brought love into the equation but might not complete it almost scares me. It'll leave a terrible taste in the mouth of anyone who even slightly sympathizes with Homura if after everything her struggle does not even grant love.

>>2319031
Adding on, I think we don't need a long cheesy confession. Just sonething thag tells her she doesn't have to hate herself anymore and that she doesn't have to be alone anymore.

>>2319047
And this is likely why they are moving so slow. They know the stakes are high and that a sequel can make or break the franchise in the eyes of a lot of fans eyes.

>>2319058
I sincerely hope this is the case. They need to somehow both tread lightly and yet still make a strong, lasting, memorable impact.

They managed to do it with Rebellion in a sense, but leaving it so open ended almost hurt them, in a way.

I just want Homura to finally, finally be loved and happy. She's honestly one of my favorite fictional characters ever.

https://exhentai.org/g/1054025/7ef341407f/
https://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/devikano_ultimate

Praise be theirs!

>>2319060
>I just want Homura to finally, finally be loved and happy
You, me, and a large portion of this fan base.

>>2319068
I am amazed beyond belief.

>>2319068
>Ultimate DeviKano
At the risk of derailing this thread, Anon-Scans has been completely blown the fuck out.

>>2319086
It's like Miatake's reading our threads

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>>2319089
Maitake simply understands what she's watching. That said, as great is Domdoka is, I find Madokami clinging to Devil Homu increadibly hot.

>>2319099
I'm not a fan of powerplays in their relationship at all, personally - I don't like Domdoka or Domura.

But god damn do I think Madokami clinging to Homucifer is cute.

>>2319107
I just like it when Madoka gets fed up waiting for Homura to do something and just forces the issue.

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>>2319111
This. I like Madoka power bottoming.

I know the chances of it are non-existent, but I would absolutely adore Homura meeting Junko in a similar situation.

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>>2319111
I watched the series again, for the third time, last weekend and I can't see their relationship as anything but (romantic) mutual support anymore.

>Homura doing everything in her power to support Madoka
>Homura breaking down a number of times
>Madoka, even before she knew the truth, hugging Homu until she's done crying
>Madoka telling Homura she did a good job
>Homura telling Madoka she has to stop thinking of herself as useless, etc
>Naked Space Hug
>Many of their scenes together in Rebellion
And so on.

It's a wonderful mutual support. I can see the arguments for power plays in KyouSaya shipping, but Homura and Madoka feel very even and complimentary.

>>2319119
> This was how HomuMado was born, even though it'll inevitably return to MadoHomu.
> - Maitake 2014/12/28

>>2319121
I think the power play comes from the fact that as much as they want to make the other happy, they both want to be the one singularly bear the burden. Going back to the whole you always hurt the ones the you love.

When they are in sync and equal, their relationship is beautiful. When they're not in sync or on equal footing, one is burdened by the weight of suffering and the other is burdened by helplessness and low self-worth.

>>2319129
Maitake just gets it.

>>2319068
I think the tl is a little lacking, but I'm just glad to see it done.

>>2319131
I understand where the power play comes from - both girls are exceptionally prone to martyrdom - to an unhealthy degree.

I just think it's too prevalent, or rather, that a mutual, supportive kind of love between the two isn't seen enough.

>>2319137
I think like you siad there are a lot of examples and are at their best when supporting each other. They're clearly made for each other but the persky plot keeps getting in the way.

I think if romance played a bigger part in the series, we'd see more, But as it is, we just have to cherish the time we get to see them support and encourage each other.

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Was it a kiss?

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Double tuna!

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>>2319150
was this a kiss?

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>>2319160
Was this a kiss?

>>2319164
Majuuka is the lewdest of pinks.

>>2319150
We will never know.

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>>2319160
Was this a kiss?

>>2319150
>>2319252
Pretty sure that was Madoka impregnating her slut in that magical girl way.

>>2319254
>Mami going in for that kiss

>>2319255
I don't think you're a qualified expert to be making that claim.

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>>2319136
Haha. It's fine. Miles better than the reddit one, either way.

>>2319502
There was a reddit one?

>>2319503
Anything by TFO. MagiRecos and Ririkano foe example.

>>2319504
Ah, I get you

>>2319254
I was slightly miffed by that opening to Rebellion.

Not because it was bad, but because we got to see all the girls in various casual clothing - minus Homura. She gets one scene in something casual and then spends the rest of that opening in the uniform.

>>2319150
Frames 1-2: possible kiss on the cheek but realistically a cheek rub (not that these are mutually exclusive, but still)
Frames 3-4: faces so close they have got to be feeling each other's breath, if not a peek on the lips
And with their hands held all the while. One or both of them could have been made pregnant

>>2319150
What's this from? I know I recognize it but I'm blanking

>>2319618
Rebellion's opening, right after the MadoHomu butt bump.

>>2319573
The movie needed a higher content rating. Face pressing, butt bumping, and handholding?

Fucking japs showing porn in theaters.

>>2319532
Homu doesn't do casual unless they're trying to sell you stuff.

>>2319940
>School girl outfit
>Meguca
>Nude
Oh I'm pretty sure Homura does casual.

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>>2319940

>>2319977
I'm so fucking glad they went with the meguca outfit she currently has.

>>2319977
Geeze, that's ugly.

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>>2319940
And ain't that just a shame. Homura should be allowed to be cute and casual too

.>>2319977
While Homu has my favorite Meguca outfit in the series, I actually really like that prototype one. It could certainly work with a few alterations. The High boots and long coat work, I think.

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>>2320256
I think it would work if placed alongside the other prototype outfits. The final outfits of the the girls are iconic at this point and it just doesn't feel right seeing them in new outfits.

Also, it looks like they attempted to use that design in this Rebellion fluff art.

>>2320292
>I think it would work if placed alongside the other prototype outfits.
Where can I find the other prototype outfits? I'm interested.

>The final outfits of the the girls are iconic at this point and it just doesn't feel right seeing them in new outfits.
Agreed. I wouldn't want them changed.

>Also, it looks like they attempted to use that design in this Rebellion fluff art.
Nice catch.

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>>2320318
This is one of Mami's prototype outfits. I believe you can find them on the wiki, but I don't remember where.

>>2320256
>While Homu has my favorite Meguca outfit in the series
But her outfit is just "I put tights on with my school uniform and called it a day."

>>2320292
Something about Homura's outfit makes me think about Doctor Who.

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>>2320338
Her outfit is sleek, no-frills (almost literally), has nice sharp edges and it flows so well.The color scheme and diamond patterns are god-tier. The bow on the back is real nice as well, especially with the way it flows behind her in the same way a scarf would. It's super good. Thematically it also works well in contrast to Madoka's (all frills, very fun/girly, softer, etc.)

Mami's is the worst, though

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>>2320318

http://genga.booru.org/index.php?page=post&s=list&tags=aoki_ume

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Alright let's settle this.

Was Homura right?

Is it crueler to Madoka to deny her godhood and her duty to her comrades, or to deny her her very existence as a human, with a family and a life?

Do you think it's even remotely possible that a happy outcome can be achieved?

>>2320559
Yes. As far as I'm concerned, Madoka will live a normal human life, then at the point she would die of old age, she regains her godhood. There's no reason why Madoka's duties have to linearly through time, they work retroactively and Madoka can resume her work at any time with no disturbance.

>>2320559
>Alright let's settle this
As opposed to the other few hundred times we've had the discussion?

>Was Homura right?
Don't have enough data to make that conclusion. It's left too open ended. For the purpose of the movie, she made the right decision based on what she had in front of her.

>Is it crueler to Madoka to deny her godhood and her duty to her comrades, or to deny her her very existence as a human, with a family and a life?

She didn't do it the nice way, but Homura's only other option was to give up on Madoka. Better to give Madoka and everyone else the wrong idea. Literally the 'do something wrong' speech.

>Do you think it's even remotely possible that a happy outcome can be achieved?

This series has never been 100% tragedy. It's whatever Urobuchi and Shinbo want, but the wraith shit and Kyubey almost guarentee an out for Homura.

>>2320573
>There's no reason why Madoka's duties have to linearly through time, they work retroactively and Madoka can resume her work at any time with no disturbance.
She even spent most of Rebellion being split from the Law of Cycles.

>>2320559
>Was Homura right?
At this point, I'm more worried they'll full on vindicate her and this is coming from a Homufag.
>Madoka
Both are cruel in a sense, but at least she gets to see her family again. As anon above mentioned, the LoC transcends time and space.
>Happy ending
As happy as a tragic, reunited in death ending can be.

>>2320559
I would says yes from as objective a standard as wrong and right can get (which isn't very objective at all).

The world as a whole isn't any better or worse off. The Incubators have to actually help instead of wandering around tricking children into killing themselves and other people, Sayaka and Nagisa are both alive instead of dead, Madoka can be a fairly regular young girl instead of isolated and completely forgotten spending her time killing other little girls. It's pretty much a direct upgrade from the LoC universe, which was itself an improvement over the regular universe.

Everyone but the incubators and Homura seems to be happy and well off.

She did a good job.

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>>2319977
One of the Saints has an outfit like that.

>>2320559
Okay let's. Cash me outside, sis. It was a selfish, violent decision made by a creepy weirdo who had already fallen into despair and madness.

>>2320626
The world is maintained via madness, has both the despair of megucas (Witches) and normal people (Wraiths), and was made via the closest thing you can get to rape on the big screen involving 1X year old girls. Homura actually rapes Madoka in the archaic sense (to tear apart, seize by force). The Demiurge is miserable, the goddess can barely be governed, the actual system administrators are broken and humbled.

Yeah there's cute yuri fluff, but you know what else had that? Homulilly's barrier. The moment Homura cannot stand being the Devil (or being with Madoka) is the moment everything goes to hell again.

All you had to do was let Madoka top, Homu. Then we could be free, and you could be happy. Fuck "saving the LoC from Incubators", you just didn't want to get NTRed like Sayaka.

>>2320664
Homura's universe is far too calculated and deliberate to write her off as mad. Unstable, perhaps, but not out of control. The Law of Cycles is still operational, simply removed from Madoka, under Homura's power. The threat of witches, alongside the other two greatest threats to humanity, those being wraiths and Incubators, are being actively mitigated by the single most powerful being in the universe, something that not even Madoka could have ever accomplished. From a purely utilitarian perspective, the only people who suffer from it are the Incubators and Homura.

>>2320664
>It was a selfish, violent decision made by a creepy weirdo
>was made via the closest thing you can get to rape on the big screen involving 1X year old girls.
>Homura actually rapes Madoka
>The moment Homura cannot stand being the Devil (or being with Madoka)
>you just didn't want to get NTRed like Sayaka.
See >>2318820

>>2320664


>>2320673
I agree with this. It sounds like you're just projecting some weird chuuni agenda onto the situation.

>>2320573
> Madoka will live a normal human life, then at the point she would die of old age, she regains her godhood.

Do you think Homura will let her die? Will let her suffer?

>>2321330
There's the theory that Homura locked time in her barrier. If that's the case, Madoka will never die and nothing will ever change. Homura also needs to be stopped because that's obviously a bad thing.

If time remains unchanged, then I don't see why not. Homura wants Madoka to live a normal life and as long as Madoka doens't come down with leukimia, I don't see Homu interfering. Homura killing herself or erasing her own existence from the world after Madoka dies sounds about right. But this all assumes no giant Mami head crashing down ti earth.

>>2321339
>because that's obviously a bad thing.

Why?

>>2321350
If she freezed time and locked it in a loop (the Eternal Recurrence runes and the cherry blossum implying a cycle has begun a new), then it will be impossible for things to work things out naturally. We are going on the assumption that Homura's will cannot be broken through pain or suffering, as she has now associated that with Madoka. Everything in the universe at that point becomes a puppet moving to a coordinated set of movements. Homura would need to be stopped to save her from herself and to free time from being locked forever.

Like I said, this is only a theory. I don't believe the new project is taking that route.

>>2320664
That's a really cool picture of Homura...

>>2321339
>There's the theory that Homura locked time in her barrier. If that's the case, Madoka will never die and nothing will ever change.
That's what I assumed in the first place. The universe became one giant Witch labyrinth, and as far as I'm aware time doesn't really pass in those either. Time didn't really pass (in a meaningful way) in Homu's barrier in Rebellion either.*

This all neatly wraps into the fact that Homura was trapped in her month-long timelopp for years anyway. In a way, things not moving, things not changing, nothing ever advancing - these are almost Homura's natural state at this point. A whole universe made by her will naturally correspond to this.

*By "time doesn't move" of course, I mean in a way that matter. Days will pass, and maybe even seasons, but no one will age and so on. It'll be like the Yuri Yuri timescale, but sad.

>>2321380
And I certainly like this theory to an extent, but the main issue is there isn't much to back it up beyond speculation. Like Homura said, she only made an adjustment to one law of the universe and she has some level of reality manipulation.

>The universe became one giant Witch labyrinth, and as far as I'm aware time doesn't really pass in those either. Time didn't really pass (in a meaningful way) in Homu's barrier in Rebellion either.*

Time certainly passes. We've saw that in the series. Roughly one month passed in Rebellion, according to Madoka, so it's not like there would have been much of a way to gauge that.

>This all neatly wraps into the fact that Homura was trapped in her month-long timelopp for years anyway. In a way, things not moving, things not changing, nothing ever advancing - these are almost Homura's natural state at this point. A whole universe made by her will naturally correspond to this.

The problem is Homuverse is already signifcantly different than the original universe. Rebellion was allwoing us to move beyond the 45 day loop of the series. While we tend to focus on the new world, we ignore that this is also a new existence for Homura. She won. Now she too can live her life, and as we've seen in the concept movie, it involves gay ballet.

A main problem is that Homura's actual powers aren't well established and that we don't know the actual consequences. I enjoy the time ceasing to move theory, but I don't see them going that route as there's no effective way to show it in the same way the loops were shown.

>>2321394
Forgot, Urobuchi says that there are still magical girls and all in the new universe. If that's the case, entropy and wraiths and all that shit exist so heat death is still an issue, meaning decay is still an issue.

>>2320670
Chaotic = crazy is bad writing and lazy thinking. People with OCD are rigid in their rituals, as are the schizophrenic with their delusions. Personality disorders are notable for how they make the brain less flexible, less chaotic, and utterly warped around a certain incorrect bit of sense data or perception.

Homu's enduring character trait is monomania over Madoka. Monomania has mania in it. Mania is a form of madness, and a rather destructive one at that.

If nee-sans are willing to put Mami and Sayaka to task for their fits of violent madness, then should not Homura be also judged for hers against a god? If she's willing to damn herself with such aplomb, why spare her the truth?

>>2321402
>then should not Homura be also judged for hers against a god?
Homura already damned herself and accepted Madoka might come to hate her. She already sacrificed Madoka's love to grant her own wish, she already hates herself. she already accepts her role as 'devil'. You can't really judge her harder than the main text narrative already has. So instead of judging her, Rebellion's ending leaves us to ponder an open ending and question how we view right, wrong, and all that jazz. Like the film ending with the girls living happy lives, Homura stomping Kyubey under her heels, the actions of the Clara dolls, or Homura's villain speech to Sayaka being shit-tier acting.

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Corrupted meguca

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>>2321459
Wrong picture

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>>2318320
>Not them, but I see no way to do this that isn't contrived bullshit.
Clearly Homura's going to be the one to let Madoka out.

>>2318320
Homura only beat Madoka so easily because they're roughly the same power level (as far as i can tell) and she did it using a plan she devised in an area Madoka's omniscience wasn't able to penetrate and where she only spent time in without her LoC powers. Thus catching Madoka by surprise after she pretty much had some combination of just remembering her capabilities.

Memory-wiping Sayaka was piss easy at that point as Sayaka really isn't strong in comparison to Homura or Madoka and they were both in Homura's stupidly large and powerful Labyrinth.

>>2321498
Homura clearly has reason to worry about Madoka regaining her powers and her removal of them was clearly not perfect to begin with. So she must have reason to be worried about it.

Of course at least part of that must stem from her simply wanting Madoka to remain human, but the movie seems to be implying that if Madoka got her powers back, there'd absolutely be a struggle.

>>2321539
Sorry, that came out less clear than I'd intended.

My point is that Homura wouldn't be nearly as alarmed at Madoka's re-awakening if it was something she perceived as being an easy thing to deal with.

>>2321450
Doe it throw anyone else off when Madoka teeheehees instead of weeheehees?

The weeheehee is iconic.