Netsuzou Trap

i'm almost scared of whatever she's thought up next.

wishing Yuma will actually say something this time instead of being so damn passive

In the last thread someone asked about the status quo changing but I bet nothing will happen. Expect something like Takeda showing up then Yuma and Hotaru don't finish their talk then start avoiding each other or something like that.

>>2265233
You think so I mean Yuma cried in the last pg when H. kissed her you can avoid that right?

What is the consensus of Naoko's works? I find her works fairly psychologically charged and full of subtle visual storytelling.

>>2265456
Shit

>>2265233
If Kodama doesn't want the anime adaptation ending up in a clusterfuck she better gets the main plot moving soon. We still don't know why Hatoru does what she does. And there are several Chekhov's guns unfired.

Yuma have to say something for our and her sake!

What's Hatoru's deal with Fujiwara?

>>2265270
Knowing Kodama, I bet she can.

>>2265534
Read chapter 13: http://imgur.com/a/tXoU6

>>2265456
Good art, incomplete or poorly told stories. Big waste of potential, Kodama should just get a good writer to be her co-mangaka.

>>2265552
Interesting. I saw exactly opposite opinions to yours. As in bad art and good stories.

Among her finished works I think Moratorium is the best.

>>2265549
Be assured I've read the entire series like 4 times.

>And we would meet each other's demands
Okay, Fujiwara's demand is sex. What is Hotaru's demand? It wouldn't be sex or she wouldn't be subject to Fujiwara's violence from time to time. The deal is more complicated than it appears like nothing in the manga can be taken literally.

Hotaru said to Fujiwara
>If I had [loved someone] I might not do things like this.
Obviously lying, but for what purpose?

Also when Fujiwara said
>I thought about taking another photo [of you girls kissing], but I stopped. I wonder if just keeping it a secret from Takeda is enough.
Then Hotaru became visibly frightened saying "That wasn't the deal...!!" If Hotaru's demand is to keep the secret from Takeda, why was she frightened by what Fujiwara said? Is the translation accurate?

>>2265566
Ok, answering my own question. Hotaru's demand is for Fujiwara to play along with her scenario.
>http://imgur.com/a/SF4Be
>F: How much longer do you plan on continuing this farce?

>>2265566
The way I see it, Hotaru's sole demand was for her and Fujiwara to have a fake relationship, no love involved - as opposed to the previous guys she dated, who actually wanted something more emotional.

That being said, depending on whether Fujiwara lied to Yuma or not, Hotaru's actions can indeed be rather odd.
Fujiwara told Yuma that Hotaru was working so that she could get a new house, away from Yuma. That on itself is odd, considering if Hotaru wanted to be away from Yuma - be it to move on, to avoid causing problems to Yuma, both, or something else - then what was the point behind all the teasing, and if she decided on moving after starting teasing Yuma, why continue the whole thing afterwards? Was it simply her doing what she always wanted with Yuma before parting ways with her, or her trying her luck before moving to see if Yuma returned her feelings, or was it her simply being fickle?

Of course, if Fujiwara lied then that's all meaningless, but we would be in the dark regarding Hotaru's reason to work at that place - money for University, perhaps?

Anyhow, back to Hotaru's relationship to Fujiwara, other than having a business-like relationship with no feelings involved, I think her main reason is simply to put up a front as if she's simply moving on and carrying on with life normally. considering Yuma had already stared doing so when she began making new friends. Having a fake relationship with Fujiwara makes it easier for Hotaru to keep this charade.

Now, that brings up the question why Hotaru started dating all these guys? Was it to make Yuma jealous (which I doubt), to allow her to move on while also allow her to keep some peace of mind by thinking she (Hotaru) was also moving on, or maybe she had some other motive?

>>2265566
>Is the translation accurate?
No. "I wonder if" is wrong.

>>2265456
There is no consensus for Kodama's works. I'd say it's devided in almost two extremes.
A lot of people hate it, while others like it. I think it triggers a lot of "Yuri is the purest form of love" fags. They just hate angst. Also the het.
Personally I think if someone is not extremely sensitive, and likes some Yuri with a dose of reality and angst, they'll like it.
To me her works are different than the typical Yuri, so I'm interested to read, since the rest doesn't trigger me, unless she actually draws a het sex scene. Which I highly doubt would happen.

>>2265556
>bad art
Literally how anon? You must be blind.

>>2265914
Thanks for the perspective.
But rather, I think her works actually strengthen the idea that yuri is the purest form of love because all the het acts as an adversarial element that outlines the contour and limit of the barest core of yuri love that is the deep relational bond between women even with het sex or under the influence of heteronormativity. Utena is of the same thought.
In this thought, purityfags are actually after yuri as an unadulterated symbol that can be objectified and fetishized instead of yuri as in itself.
I would even go so far as to call her works "realist yuri" as a counterbalance to Class S yuri which imbues a false sense of contentment as lesbians until graduation. Not simply angst, the realism in her portrayal of trauma, abuse, manipulative relationships and its prognosis is deep-rooted in woman psychology and cultivates an etiological understanding and ultimately an educational message for relationships.
I was initially drawn to her works by its subtle visual storytelling of the subdued mental process of the characters because I personally like deciphering works with intentionally hidden psychological themes. But the uncovered thought processes and motivations of the characters quickly reminded me of the characteristics of the manipulative relationships I was previously personally involved with. Those manipulations left me in deeply troubled state for quite some time but this work prompted me to research feminist psychology which gave me tools to understand the source of those manipulations not only in the characters but also in my personal experience, for which I feel fortunate to be enlightened.
Feminist psychology is a great tool (not trying to imply any political context). Now I can recognize the cause of my previous dismissal, frustration, fear, and hatred toward manipulation as part of women's relational abilities, and understandably why this work will encounter dismissal, frustration, fear, and hatred by male readers.

>>2265829
>Fujiwara told Yuma that Hotaru was working
I believe this action was orchestrated by Hotaru, willingly or unwittingly.

>then what was the point behind all the teasing
First, after previous manipulation Hotaru already pulled Yuma into a vulnerable state of loneliness and insecurities thus imbuing Yuma with a want for herself. (And also eliminating the threat of Takeda.)
But it is not enough to just have Yuma by her side. She wanted to manipulate Yuma into actively pursuing herself.
Then Hotaru created a plausible scenario where in Yuma's eyes she was making a self-sacrifice by giving up her own desires and moving away from Yuma. She made herself appear to fall into a state of degeneracy, exploiting Yuma's protective desire and developing it into possessive desire. By artificially creating a sense of distance and abandonment she wrecked the morality in the heart of Yuma, making Yuma pursue herself out of desperation.

I'm not implying this is healthy. Looking at Kodama's prior works, Hotaru's plot will backfire horribly at some time.

>why Hotaru started dating all these guys?
She is cute. Guys approached her. She accepted because like any other works of Kodama, she is a traumatized girl with no mother, unable to make friends, socially ostracized, and was just abandoned by her only friend, which would imply a state of abandonment depression. She switched guys frequently because she never liked men, but eventually she settled with Fujiwara because this guy did thing with no string attached.

>>2265916
Not me. People's opinions.
But indeed, the author admits she is not good at facial expressions and can only draw dead fish eyes and poker faces.

>>2266129
Y'all think Hotaru is a master manipulator while I think Hotaru is dense, has no idea about Yuma's feelings and sometimes really thinks she's doing what's best for Yuma without realizing she's actually hurting her more and more.

>>2266139
But like. That entire manga about the mangaka.

>>2266139
Kodama herself said she's not good at drawing facial expressions.

To answer the anon who asked about the consensus of Kodama's works, I particullarly like her works, her art is good, her plots dodges the usual yuri stories so I like that but as some other poster said sometimes it's poorly written, while she tries to make the characters deeper/complex/dark or whatever sometimes in the end it feels like something is missing. For NTR I think she lost herself somewhere in the middle of the plot.

>>2266243
>Kodama herself said she's not good at drawing facial expressions.
You said the same thing, sorry.

>>2266139
This doesn't mean she is not a good artist. They were answering a question about what is the most difficult part for them to draw. And Saburuta had said she struggles with bodies, while she is good with facial expressions

Every artist struggles with something though. Doesn't necessarily mean their art is bad if they have a weak spot.

>>2266236
To be fair it's only very recently that Yuma has started reciprocating. A month ago she was all "lol Hotaru stop fooling around, you are my best friend whom I tell all of the bf drama to."

yuma's first kiss was with takeda?

>>2266316
Yes. And right after that Hotaru kissed her same night for the first time.

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>>2266294
when i first read the story i thought hotaru was the manipulator, but on a second read-through yuma is the one who made it pretty clear hotaru is secondary to her or a fling. then when hotaru tries to distance herself, yuma gets clingy and wont let her leave

>>2266336
is it confirmed to be her first kiss?

>>2266343
Isn't she just regurgitating what /Hotaru/ said to her here?

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>>2266358
no, the story heavily implies yuma is the one pushing the bff stuff, while hotaru has been in love with her since childhood.

>>2266369
To be fair when Hotaru started doing those things to Yuma, Hotaru was the one saying it was just for practice and shit.

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>>2266369
"rehearsal"
From the first fucking chapter and it's not the only time she plays stuff off as a joke or a friend helping out a friend. I'm not saying Yuma isn't dense as shit, but Hotaru is exactly where she chose to put herself.
Also, Takeda was Yuma's first kiss, but Hotaru was her first tongue kiss.

>>2266236
There is almost always a manipulator in her works, see Fujiyuu Sekai and Moratorium. Now, to answer the question why there is always manipulation it's because the manipulators suffer from prior trauma and separation anxiety and they have to resort to manipulation to keep their friend bonded. Depiction of such relationship is likely her intended theme.

>>2266343
Kodama is orchestrating very deep ruse in this work as the first person narrative is deeply deceptive where the POV person is getting manipulated by presenting half truths.

Yes, I thought Hotaru was manipulating on the first read because that's the most immediate interpretation without further thought. On second read I gained more insights into the mental process of Hotaru, particularly from those deadpan eyes and sense of abandonment by Yuma, and concluded that Hotaru was a suffering victim and somehow there must be a benign reason for her actions.

Only until I studied the manipulation in Moratorium did I recognize and recontextualize the level of mastery in Hotaru's manipulation.

>>2266236
>sometimes really thinks she's doing what's best for Yuma without realizing she's actually hurting her more and more
Yuma, this is exactly what Hotaru wants you to believe. You've been rused.

they're both dum dums

>>2266392
>rehearsal
It's a loaded word. Through years of interaction Hotaro knew Yuma was a highly moral and heteronormative girl. (Yuma commented in dismissing tone how in all the years Hotaru randomly kissed and touched her.)

When Hotaru first said this word to Yuma, it was meant to make Yuma think what they're doing was still somehow heteronormative and free her from her own conscience such that Hotaru could first develop her sensual feelings.
Later Hotaru was slapped by Yuma because Yuma couldn't allow doing it in public indicating that even though it was acceptable by Yuma's own conscience, it was not acceptable if there was potential for social backslash. And that was where Hotaru discovered and started to exploit this insecurity of Yuma's by creating more exposing scenarios.
When Hotaru said "rehearsal" the second time to Yuma, it was after Yuma's insecurity was maximized and the word was meant to create a sense of abandonment as in "my relationship with Fujiwara is more real than that with you" thus making Yuma more dependent on her.

>>2266455
Dude, you are thinking about this way more than I was. I just assumed she wanted to get some of dat Yuma goodness, then eventually realised that fucking around with a straight girl was hurting her more than helping her and tried to back off and is now apparently oblivious to the fact that Yuma is actually in love with her because they're both borderline retarded in their own ways.

>>2266457
I read all of Kodama's manga and the common themes are this:
>traumatized girl creates sick relationship
>manipulation is used to develop and maintain the relationship
>manipulation techniques get increasingly clever
Now back to your points. There is no way Hotaru is retarded if Kodama's prior works are any reference. And Hotaru's backing off is only a ruse to make Yuma more insecure and dependent if you think closely about what this means after Hotaru confessed to Yuma that she would "back off":
>From those words, 10 are given, 9 are the truth, and within that 1 is a lie. I don't know who said that?

>>2266402
>Moratorium
that one was pretty sick.

>>2266467
Actually this one is where manipulation was used for constructive purposes. I considered it a Good End after a sick start.

>>2266469
i meant in general, the mind of someone who friendzoned someone but still kept her around as an emotional tampon. too realistic 4 me

>>2266463
Not that anon but I think Hotaru genuenly wanted to distance herself from Yuma, since she kept trying and was getting friendzoned. Plus Fujiwara started noticing and that got Yuma in real trouble.

You could be right, but desu as long ad we don't see any actual signs that she does this to get Yuma more hooked, I think it's thinking too much about it.

>>2266351
Well Yuma was never in a relationship before. Also, even though Yuma has said that Hotaru used to do weird stuff like that when they were younger, it is not stated that Hotaru had kissed her prior to Takeda.

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>>2266463
And why was Hotaru trying to "make things right" for Takeda and Yuma? Manipulating their relationship so she could get Yuma off her ass?

>>From those words, 10 are given, 9 are the truth, and within that 1 is a lie. I don't know who said that?
That's from ch 9 http://imgur.com/a/Mr7j2
We'd need someone who knows japanese to explain what exact sentence Hotaru was referring to.

>>2265556
I would have loved for it to continue with them both fucking people on the side and coming up with increasingly elaborate ways to wind each other up until they finally end up together.

>>2266474
There is. The key evidence is that in ch.15 Fujiwara said to Hotaru after Hotaru pushed Yuma to Takeda:
>How long do you plan on continuing this farce?
Implying: there is an collusion between Hotaru and Fujiwara and it has been going on for a while. The collusion is something Fujiwara finds annoying (woman stuff) but somehow he agreed to implement it in exchange for sex. Now if you go back you'd find different light is shed on what he said to Yuma and Takeda and what he did to Yuma. The reason he brought this up at that moment is because "well they already broke up, what more do you still want?"

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The next chapter will give us the answer for these theories. I'm don't think that Hotaru is so manipulative with Yuma, because she cares a lot about her happiness.

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post yfw the new chapter is about the boys/takeda

>>2266542
I would be really mad if this happens anon.

>>2266541
Ah so romantic.

>>2266526
That translation is pretty bad.
>When lying, one should sneak 1 part lies within 9 parts truth... who was it that said that?

There's loads other problems in that translation too. For instance, the page in the pic is more like:
>You're kind of right about her hiding something from you.
>The thing was, there was a person interested in Yuma.
>Eh...?
>Ah, but Yuma for her part wasn't interested at all.
>But the other person was persistent.

>>2266544
Yuma needs to go for it once for all. Kodama maybe put something romantic I guess, the realease date is close to the Valentine date after all.

>>2266526
This particular scene you referenced here is not her trying to make things right between Takeda and Yuma.
Yume knew well Takeda was a naive yasashii guy who would think for the best for Yuma. By revealing that someone was loving Yuma and then manipulating Yuma into being visibly troubled in front of Takeda, Takeda would be worried about Yuma's well-being first and try to fix Yuma's problem by voluntarily giving up his own love in hope to lessen Yuma's trouble. Takeda's habit of voluntarily retreating is an established track record.

>>2266545
That doesn't stray from the point that Hotaru was telling half truths.

>>2266551
You've got a completely bonkers interpretation.

>>2266555
What isn't plausible in this interpretation?

>>2266551
I really don't think that Hotaru is like that... she being the mastermind behind all this would be really evil.

>>2266560
Go read Moratorium. After finishing the main chapters you would feel a great and loving story. Only in the afterstory was it revealed that one girl is the manipulation mastermind and the other one who tried to manipulate got manipulated all along.

>>2266557
She's telling him that someone had been interested but Yuma was not. She presents it as something over. She was trying to justify Yuma's behavior, basically telling what she probably thought was the truth (except for leaving out that the other person was her) so that Takeda wouldn't think badly of Yuma for the way Yuma seemed distracted. That's not a scheme that would plausibly lead to Takeda "giving up his own love". What Hotaru didn't expect is that Yuma would develop feelings for her, carrying on worrying about her, and talk to Takeda about that. That's what led to Takeda giving up.

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I prefer Ange vierge

>>2266566
You're not wrong on the apparent level. I thought exactly the same as you the first time I read it.

But you're also assuming "Hotaru didn't expect" and that is just your assumption.

Without hard evidence of direct depiction of Hotaru's inner dialogue it's hard to definitely prove or disprove either way. But it really boils down to whether the whole thing is intentional or unintentional.

By continuity from Kodama's prior works and simply for the purpose of more dramatic value, it would lean towards to the side of the whole thing being intentionally set up.

>>2266576
You're just putting forward a crank theory. Yeah, it's hard to disprove, but it's got no real chance of being right.

>>2266586
>got no real chance of being right
nice retort

I want to see possessive Yuma acting, damn.

What I think was going on with Hotaru:

Hotaru had been in love with Yuma for a long time. She believed there was no chance Yuma would return her feelings.

This leads Hotaru to go off the rails. Although it may have been partly an attempt to make Yuma jealous or to distract herself from her feelings, accepting the advances of boys must have an element of not caring about herself, like becoming a slut was a form of self-harm.

Eventually Yuma gets a boyfriend. Hotaru uses her bad girl image as cover to opportunistically act on her desire for Yuma, spurred on by jealousy. But she's conflicted because she doesn't believe that her friendship is likely to survive if Yuma knew how she really felt, and she does also care about Yuma being happy and believes that she could be happy with Takeda, so she's also partly pushing for things to work out with Takeda. However, ultimately her poor self-control not only leads to Yuma breaking up with Takeda, but Fujiwara gets blackmail material (which can used to harm Yuma, not just Hotaru).

This makes Hotaru think she really does need to give up and she tries to get Yuma and Takeda back together. And Fujiwara may have been telling the truth about Hotaru planning to move away from Yuma: when she's around Yuma she can't move on, and still keeps giving into temptation to fool around with her. She thinks Yuma will ultimately be happier without someone like her around. (on the other hand, what Fujiwara said isn't necessarily true and Hotaru needing money maybe for some other purpose)

>>2266616
>She believed there was no chance Yuma would return her feelings. This leads Hotaru to go off the rails.
Not accurate. The transition that led Hotaru to go off rails is when Yuma started to make new friends and not spend time with Hotaru which was perceived as abandonment.

>she's conflicted because she doesn't believe that her friendship is likely to survive if Yuma knew how she really felt
I don't think this is either correct or to the point. The fact is her friendship survived even after she made Yuma aware that Hotaru was cheating for her. The point is Hotaru didn't want Takeda to take away Yuma's attention/care/affirmation from herself. Hotaru wouldn't allow Yuma to develop a bond with anyone higher than that with her.

For your reference on the mentality of Hotaru, read http://www.janellehallman.com/Developmental_Relational_Etiology.html

>she does also care about Yuma being happy and believes that she could be happy with Takeda
Hotaru has a very twisted definition of happiness though. If what you said is true, why would she act out an NTR over the phone scenario to drive misunderstanding in between Yuma and Takeda? This one is definitely intentional.

>her poor self-control
If she has poor self-control, why would she suck up Fujiwara's violence no matter what just to maintain the "deal"?

>Fujiwara gets blackmail material
Fujiwara is not blackmailing anyone. He broke up with his previous gf because he hated the way girls meddle and invade his privacy. And he hates women in general. Then compare the fact that he studied hard and got medical school qualification early. You would understand his thought process is of a man, who wouldn't need to manipulate others to move up.
Although he did keep a copy of the "blackmailing" photo, which I assume would be an insurance against Hotaru.

Here is what's going on with Fujiwara since I can't convince you about Hotaru.

Fujiwara is smart, studies hard and gets medical school qualification early. This implied he is a rational man.

He is handsome and attracts girls, but he hates women because he just wants sex but the attracted girls always demand emotional attachment and start to meddle with his life. He hates the thinking of women and hates the trouble and complication from it.

He met Hotaru, who doesn't demand emotional attachment from him, so their relationship stays stable. But occasionally when new girls approach him he wouldn't refuse.

Hotaru made a deal with him to "meet each other's demands". Surely Fujiwara's demand is sex which Hotaru provides. But what are Hotaru's demands?

Meanwhile, he "threatened" Yuma with NTR rumors and "blackmailed" Yuma with the cheating photo for the apparent excuse to having a threesome. But did he fuck Yuma or even appear to want to fuck Yuma? If he just wanted sex why would he went to so much trouble for Yuma when he had unlimited supply of girls? All those actions gained nothing and were pointless in themselves. The only rational explanation is that he was implementing his side of the deal with Hotaru.

Now that he is implementing a deal where he plays the bad guy (and Hotaru plays the good guy), when did the bad guy roleplaying start? Right around when Yuma started to believe Hotaru was hit by Fujiwara. Consider the consequence of this belief: Yuma wasted her date with Takeda for arguing with Fujiwara. Do you think this is intentional or unintentional?

>>2266711
>The only rational explanation is that he was implementing his side of the deal with Hotaru.
Sorry, but you are not being rational. You actually seem tragically bad at drawing conclusion that make sense.

>>2266716
Let me ask you this question again: what does he gain by doing all those?

>>2266719
He gained leverage over Hotaru.

>>2266721
What is the point to have leverage over Hotaru? It's not like Hotaru is an irreplaceable fuck buddy.

>>2266725
She's the best fuck buddy and more leverage just makes her better.

And Hotaru might paying him off with the money she's earning to stop him doing anything that harms Yuma.

Hotaru did nothing wrong.

N O T H I N G
O
T
H
I
N
G

>>2266734
So according to you, this smart and resourceful guy suddenly started to have the need to depend on particular women for sex when he had been giving no fuck about replacing women in his whole life. Hotaru must be a magical cure.

>>2266740
I'm not trying to ruin your fantasy but the study of the prognosis of complex manipulative relationships is always what Kodama's works are about.
It's the process of the psychological facts being uncovered and deciphered that makes it interesting. Jumping at moral judgements is really missing the point.

>>2266755
You are taking a self-described generic, dramatic soap opera way too seriously, and Hotarun is a good girl.

>>2266760
I am trying to prove Hotaru is manipulative. You are trying to prove Hotaru is a good girl.
It only reveals your predisposition that manipulation is inherently bad. A counterexample: in Moratorium manipulation is shown to be used in a benign way.

>>2266743
No. See, once again you're showing how bad you are at understanding.

He doesn't need Hotaru, but that's no reason at all to pass up on things that give him control over her. Do you understand that even if he can perfectly well cope with losing her that doesn't mean it isn't good to keep her and control her?

>>2266755
You really like manipulative relationships anon, don't you? I still don't think that all what Hotaru does is to manipulate Yuma. She is a good girl and lover Yuma a lot (she is in deep in love with her after all).

>>2266766
>showing how bad you are at understanding
Is this really necessary as your argument? I've been trying to be to the point but this is not helpful.

>that's no reason at all to pass up on things that give him control over her
The way he told his previous gf to fuck off proves that he never cares enough to control women in the first place. Use facts to prove your point if you have any.

>>2266766
It makes no sense for Fujiwara to play along such a convoluted plan just to get access to her body when he hates complications and is popular enough to get a new girl without problems.

>>2266769
There is complex psychological interaction in the depiction of manipulative relationships. I like the process of deciphering psychological mysteries. If you just want simple love stories maybe Kodama is not for you.

>>2266774
Damn, you really is judging the story too early and overdoing the things, we don't have the proof yet anon, for sake... Kodama can make nice stories too, you don't know what she is really doing with this one, we need to wait to see what is REALLY happening (if is that what you said or other thing).

>>2266770
Pointing out that you're bad at thinking is the most helpful thing I can do for you. You really are very bad at thinking and it would be good if you became more aware of it. You're using "facts" in a way that's not actually meaningful. Not bothering to make the effort to keep one girlfriend doesn't he wouldn't take a convenient chance to control a woman. You're drawing dumb inferences.

>>2266774
It isn't a complicated plan. It's less work for him than going out with a girl who thinks they had a genuine relationship.

>>2266775
The first manga she made was the happiest. Later ones get increasingly darker and complicated. I don't think this one is any exception.

Why are people even reading this with the het shit it has

>>2266782
Because it's more interesting than Citrus and I like to see Hotaru attacking Yuma.

>>2266778
You seem out of arguments aside from adhoms. Let's stop here ok?

>>2266784
I agree with this, but Citrus is not the only yuri series out there you know

>>2266785
Please look up what ad hom actually is and isn't.

>>2266782
How do you defeat heteronormativity without involving het?

>>2266788

Defeat heteronormativity? I mean, the human race has to reproduce. As much as I love yuri, the majority of the human race is het.

Also, how is watching het fighting heteronormativity?

>>2266786
I know, I read others better than Citrus and Netsuzou, like Kase-san, Yuzumori-san, Yagate Kimi ni naru, The Love that won't reach, Happy Sugar Life, Murcielago, etc. Almost all that is out.

>>2266792
Please,
>Heteronormativity is the belief that people fall into distinct and complementary genders (man and woman) with natural roles in life. It assumes that heterosexuality is the only sexual orientation or only norm, and states that sexual and marital relations are most (or only) fitting between people of opposite sexes.
>how is watching het fighting heteronormativity
By showing yuri wins against het, like in Utena.

>>2266786

Citrus may have shitty plot but it's pure yuri (after the beginning) which I will take over this het any day.

As for whatever you like about this, you can do it without the het.

I really don't understand the popularity of this manga. Het people don't like it because of the NTR bs and there's het bs which turns away a part of the yuri crowd.

>>2266798
But you're assuming that yuri will win against het in this series.

If that does happen, then I will read it. But I'm not going to take the chance and become invested while the ending is unknown.

Also Utena was just queer.

>>2266802
The two male characters don't even have family names somehow het would win?
But the good news is het always loses in Kodama's works.

It seems that you all are excited to see what Yuma and Hotaru will do in the new chapter.

>>2266804
Sure, maybe you're right.

But I don't have that kind of faith and I won't pick it up until I know what I'm getting into.

>>2266806
>Implying that het will win in Yuri Hime Magazine.

Kodama isn't crazy to do that.

>>2266804
Those are their family names.

>>2266813
But bf would be first name basis.

>>2266816
Nope, those are family names.

>>2266818
source?

>>2266823
You can look them up even on English Wikipedia. They are both standard family names.

File: 7WimkRK.png (1MB, 1114x1600px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 1114x1600px

>>2266760
>You are taking a self-described generic, dramatic soap opera way too seriously
I agree with this. While one of you is like "Hotaru is a good girl!" and the other is like "this is too complex!" what I think is that you're all overanalyzing a soap drama, especifically Fujiwara's actions, yes he can get all the girls he and doesn't need Hotaru nor Yuma so why did become the bad guy and why the threesome arc? Imo simply because Kodama needed a bad guy to keep the drama going for a few chapters before coming up with another drama, the way I think this is all not that deep and I don't believe in the theory of Hotaru teaming up with Fujiwara to make Yuma miserable or whatever.

Look at Fujiwara's actions he's being the bad guy just for the sake of it (meaning plot decisions by Kodama). Why take another photo? What for? Seems like he's already blackmailing Hotaru with the last one but what is he gaining? What can Hotaru give him that any other girl couldn't? So assuming Hotaru is also the bad guy why exactly is he helping her if with his looks he can get pussy everywhere and that's all Hotaru can give him? Fujiwara is just the unreasonable bad guy from a soap opera drama imo.

>>2266825
So these boyfriends are still on family name basis. Okay, it further proves their roles are of minor importance where the author didn't even bother moving it into first name basis.

>>2266463
>I read all of Kodama's manga and the common themes are this:
This applies to Fujiyuu Sekai, Moratorium and NTR to a certain degree. Have you read even her untranslated works?
I'd agree that all her stories has shitty people being shit but not that all of them involve manipulation.

>>2266831
You may not agree with the premise but here is what follows
>Why take another photo? What for?
Hotaru asked for it as part of the deal
>what is he gaining?
The deal
>What can Hotaru give him that any other girl couldn't?
A clear cut deal to exchange for sex with no complication or emotional attachment
>why exactly is he helping her if with his looks he can get pussy everywhere and that's all Hotaru can give him
The deal is a rational instrument to provide him with sex without getting emotionally involved with typical women. He wouldn't need to think about how to cater to women and would have more time for medical school prep.

>>2266856
Ok, sure. I'll put my money on the other anon's theory.

>>2266855
Also
>Girls Talk, Renai Manga, Everyday Lingerie, Summer Splash, 恋愛のできないお仕事, Kaikou Effect, Zankou Noise, Cocytus, 無酸素恋愛
what else?

When she was not making manipulative stories, she was making stories about what the characters are like before they get into manipulative relationships, that is, social isolation, het norm, trauma, separation anxiety, abandonment depression.

Stop with these theories for now, we will see what will happen in the new chapter, probably we will get some answers about this all.

>>2266865
What exactly is manipulative about the works you mentioned? For Girl's Talk and Renai no Dekinai Oshigoto I've only seen the raws, but Renai Manga (has abbandonement issues but it's almost another cliché yuri manga), Summer Splash and Everyday Lingerie can't really see any manipulative situation in it, while Cocytus and Encounter Effect are rather unhealthy than manipulative. You must really overanalyze everything you read.

>>2266889
abandonment* sorry about that

>>2266832
>tfw we still have to put up with asshole mcgee and his creepy abusing

All i want is some twist that they never did it.

>>2266889
The point is to extract the common themes in her works and see where she came from and where she is going.
Well some of the themes are certainly not as well defined in her early works but the point still stands.
>Girls Talk, the first archetype of a socially isolated deuteragonist with the only friend being protagonist.
>Renai Manga, the plot is driven by the full cycle of social norm-isolation-separation anxiety-abandonment depression.
>Everyday Lingerie, yuri is proved by defeating het norm. OK, this one is only about het norm.
>Summer Splash, possessive desire became a plot driver.
>恋愛のできないお仕事, benign manipulation
>Zankou Noise, social isolation, the idea that female identity is defined by relationships
>Cocytus, social isolation as a test of yuri
Call me overanalyzing but how else do you get into her mind? But keep in mind manipulation is just a means to any kind of ends.

>>2266920
The logic between the themes might also not appear as obvious to you. Here is the typical progression in extremely oversimplified words
>ontologically, female identity is defined by relationships
>- loss of mother causes a need for substitute attachment
>- lack of same-sex friendships causes lack of acceptance and belonging
>- het norm causes moratorium of identity development
>the need of identity, security, acceptance calls for attachment/relationships
>deuteragonist develops a relationship as reparative attachment
>the existence of the relationship itself becomes deuteragonist's identity and self
>the relationship is threatened, deuteragonist takes defensive maneuvers
>defensive maneuvers are manipulative
Her earlier works more explored the first part of the progression.

is none of her hetero stuff translated?

>kodama has been doing yuri for 12-13 years now

amazing

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2017-02-15/ntr-netsuzou-trap-yuri-tv-anime-unveils-staff-new-visual/.112257

>>2267064

Ugh, they went for the cheap

>>2267064
It looks like they went solely for the "NTR" while the essence of this work is the "fabricated trap". I doubt much of the delicate psychological handling would translate well into anime.

>>2267076
eh, i mean as long as its not boring i think it'll be fine.

>>2267077
At least that shows us the status of Netsuzou in the eyes of producers. But hey, anime is better than no anime.

>>2267064
>http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2017-02-15/ntr-netsuzou-trap-yuri-tv-anime-unveils-staff-new-visual/.112257
>both guys have camel toe

seems about right

>>2267081
it's a penis

>>2267064
Nice

>>2266806
Cool, then fuck off

>>2267064
Ohhhh, looks good, I liked.

It's a new studio, I'm looking foward to see that.

> Masaru Kawashima (Soul Eater, Penguindrum, Kiznaiver key animation)

The animation will be good for sure ahaha.

>>2267160
that's just the character designer tho?

>>2265023
Does she even like yuri or does she just like playing with our feelings, I honestly can't tell.

Kodama playing 4D chess confirmed

>>2267228
Silly imouto. She loves drama. Above everything else.

>>2266542
It's published in Yuri Hime so I really doubt that this would happen.

>>2267233
Exactly. It's this kind of questions that've been asked in her works:
>Do I know you know I know you don't know I don't know you know this?

>>2267228
>authors who write drama instead of fluff actually hate Yuri!

>>2266808
But some yurifags are crazy to believe this is a possible option.

>>2266792
Gay girls can still have biological kids and be together with each other. Reproducing and being in a relationship is two different things.

>>2267228
Eh. There was a big ruckus about this on her twitter. Someone accused her for not knowing what yuri is and that she doesn't like it. I don't remember the details. It was all about her and Yuri Hime. All tweets from that day are deleted. Anyone remember the details?

>>2267453
>t. purityfags without borders

>>2267248
>It's published in Yuri Hime so I really doubt that this would happen.

>>2267685
Has it happened in the past, a handful of one shots which were designed to tug at your heartstrings aside?

File: NTRap_Visuals.jpg (87KB, 798x905px) Image search: [Google]

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TVアニメ「捏造トラップ-NTR-」
キービジュアルとスタッフ情報が公開されました!
【スタッフ】
原作:コダマナオコ
総監督:ひらさわひさよし
キャラクターデザイン:川島勝
脚本:ワーズインステレオ×内堀優一
アニメーション制作:Creators in Pack.Inc

>>2267228
she's been doing yuri since 2005

>>2267741
>Creators in Pack.Inc
I think this might be a chance for the studio for prove themselves. ひらさわひさよし is the president of the studio now on chief director post so it looks like they're going all out for this show.
The pedigree of the studio is total garbage, but that is probably because the studio was new and not well-connected, only taking contracts for web shorts and literally chinese cartoon. Considering it's the first full cour regular anime they have total creative control, I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and see how it turns out.

>>2267762
i'm personally expecting QUALITY

The raws will out tomorrow, I want to see what Yuma will do now. I hope she act like a retarded and don't say nothing.

>>2267762
Yes, they are pulling an efforct with choosing nices VAs to the characters and with the animation and the art, I hope they can do a good job.

>>2267765
The art isn't so detailed, then I hope that won't have so much QUALITY for this one.

>>2267765
I don't think QUALITY would be an issue because there isn't really much to animate, if at all. The plot is mostly people talking and some lewd. The hard part is in the script, see how they've got two scriptwriters.

The raws will out tomorrow, I want to see what Yuma will do now. I hope she doesn't act like a retarded and don't say nothing.

>>2267762
Yes, they are pulling an effort with choosing nices VAs to the characters and with the animation and the art, I hope they can do a good job.

>>2267765
The art isn't so detailed, then I hope that won't have so much QUALITY for this one.

>>2267770
Yes, the script is the worst part for this, and the director maybe will help them or seeing if that is good or not (to change things too), then are like 3 people doing.

>>2267769
>The raws will out tomorrow
Er, only if you know it will leak before the magazine is supposed to be out?

>>2267774
>the script is the worst part
The script has the most potential to the be worst. Right now the script of the manga is a fucking game of 4D chess. Can they translate the game into anime? That is the hard part.

>>2267776
The chinese receive the raws one day before the release date in Japan. Fucking hackers.
Will out on tieba baidu, here http://tieba.baidu.com/f?kw=%E6%8D%8F%E9%80%A0%E9%99%B7%E9%98%B1%E6%BC%AB%E7%94%BB&ie=utf-8 or this one http://tieba.baidu.com/f?kw=%E6%8D%8F%E9%80%A0%E9%99%B7%E9%98%B1&ie=utf-8, but in the 1st one they usually post first than the 2nd one.

>>2267777
>Right now the script of the manga is a fucking game of 4D chess.
Are you perhaps reading it in a shitty translation?

>>2267781
no

>>2267784
So is your Japanese comprehension just bad?

>>2267788
Your comprehension is weak.

You know why this text is put in the background of the official art?
>trap
>1(鳥獣などを捕らえる)わな,落とし.
>⇒mousetrap.
>2(人を陥れる)計略,策略,わな.
>fall [walk] into a trap わなにはまる, 術中に陥る.
>3(射撃のための)放鳥器,標的飛ばし 《標的のクレー (clay pigeon) などを空中に飛ば>す装置; cf. trapshooting》.
>4防臭弁,トラップ(装置) 《排水管などの U 字型の部分》.

>>2267777
I think that Fujiwara will turns out to be the mastermind of all this and not Hotaru, Hotaru will be fucked when she break up with him.

>>2267800
It's translated as False Trap too.

>>2267780
>The chinese receive the raws one day before the release date in Japan.

I think chinese editors recived it today. Yuri Hime is published in China on buka.cn. They need it sooner to translate it on time. That's why there are leaks before the release date.

>>2267805
>False Trap
That shows where your comprehension is weak.
捏造 doesn't mean false. 捏造 means fabricated, concocted (by someone).
"trap" is only trap as in mousetrap figuratively. The real meaning of "trap" is in the second entry: ruse, trick.

"捏造trap -NTR-" just means someone fabricated NTR as a ruse.

Now the fact that you can't even perceive the existence of a ruse after 15 chapters proves how masterful Kodama is in the game of 4D chess.

>>2267810
meaning its fabricated cheating?

>>2267810
Hmmmm good to know that, we will see what will happen, you can't say that is that yet and this applies to me either. We need more proofs.

>>2267812
>fabricate
>a : invent, create
>b : to make up for the purpose of deception
Yes, the NTR is an artificial scenario created for certain purpose. This is not saying the NTR is not real.

>>2267810
I noticed that something is odd with Hotaru's attitude, but we can't judge her yet without more proofs.

>>2267815
Knowing this Mangaka we're in for a mindfuck...

>>2267805
>I think that Fujiwara will turns out to be the mastermind of all this
i'd spit up blood. his involvement in the story thus far has been what i wish would go away most

>>2267810
>That shows where your comprehension is weak.
You need to learn you can't assume an anon replying to you is who you replied to.

Since the manga is rather not ending any soon what the author can do with the same 4 characters whose roles pretty much ended?

If anything I could see her introducing some more 1 or 2 characters new to this NTR situation to bring even more drama, maybe parental issue or someone related to Hotaru, there's no really much here to spin anymore, or the author will decide to fuck everything on their heads and Takeda will start dating Hotaru and Fujiwara Yuma out of some blackmail.
Too little actors for this to be kept interesting.

>>2267826
no clue. i have a bit more faith in kodama than saburouta, so I don't think there will be another character.

>>2267826
We will see what will happen, I guess would be interesting if she added 1 or 2 new chapters to this shit situation and explores more the Hotaru's past and shows her point of view too.

It's clear that Fujiwara is the final boss here. He broke the deal with Hotaru. This series will end in Volume 5 or 6. Stretching this story will only make it worse not better.

>>2267826
Hotaru's parental situation was fully explored (Yuma's mom commented on Hotaru's family).
If Fujiyuu Sekai is a reference, things will start to backfire at Hotaru horribly by third party intervention (likely Fujiwara) and Hotaru will turn to have visible vulnerabilities.

>>2267810
Rather than that interpretation, 捏造トラップ could be refer to characters getting trapped in their fabrications, particularly Hotaru getting into difficulty due to her lies and the false image she presents.

>>2267826
The Chekhov's gun still needs to be fired. Fujiwara will use his insurance photo. The only question is why.
My headcanon is this:
>Hotaru overextends her demands for Fujiwara and gets clingy, when he was already annoyed by the lengths he had to go to to fulfill the deal.
>What Fujiwara hates most is clingy women, so he decides "fuck you and your little game, I've published this photo and now you can fuck off."
>Then Yuma and Hotaru suffer public humiliation and Yuma's mom intervenes to separate her from Hotaru.
>Now enters the nightmare situation for Hotaru.

>>2267850
I don't think your interpretation conflicts with mine. Hotaru fabricated a trap and then got trapped by the same fabrication. The irony in this only makes it more meaningful.

i demand more angsty plot such as public humiliation or suicide

>>2267854
Nah, he'll most likely use it to try to get to fuck Yuma.

>>2268073
He must have been really patient then.

https://tieba.baidu.com/p/4983443299?red_tag=1672722277

Raws out!

>The mastermind was Fujiwara

Fucking kek I knew it
Yuma will not say that she loves Hotaru, for sake, I'm mad with her too.

>>2268351
Okay, Fujiwara fired the Chekhov's gun. But why?

>>2268344
Hotaru's prank put Yuma off asking Hotaru anything. After a period of not seeing Hotaru much, Yuma starts thinking about how things are more peaceful for her without Hotaru. But regardless of how much simpler it would be if she fell in love with Takeda instead, by the end of the chapter, when she meets Hotaru, she has clearly accepted it's Hotaru who she's in love. She accidentally almost blurts that out to Hotaru, but instead ends up making Hotaru think Yuma has someone else (not Takeda) who she likes. When Hotaru offers to support her, Yuma suggests Hotaru let her practice again (so it's a reversal from Hotaru using that excuse to be intimate with the person she loves, to Yuma using it). Yuma has found a magazine that suggests Hotaru is looking for somewhere else to stay (so Fujiwara was probably right about that being why Hotaru is working) and wants to do something to try to keep hold of her, but not feeling able to be honest (a consequence of Hotaru's dishonesty), she's resorting to a lie even though she doesn't think it will work. Trapped in fabrications.

At the end of the chapter, rather than using the photo for blackmail. it seems like Fujiwara is just going use it to disrupt things. To me it seems like he's motivated by being annoyed about how Takeda is being affected, because he believes Yuma is just using poor old innocent Takeda like a beard, and confronted her about that during the chapter.

>>2268351
If anything it shows he's not a mastermind and doesn't really understand the situation (he thinks Hotaru and Yuma are already a couple)

>>2268361
Ahhh dammit, the ride now will be really awful, one of them needs to be honest or they will never out of this situation.

>>2268365
Yeah, this it seems right, he want to screw up their relationship.

>>2268365
I think the last straw that made Fujiwara pulled the Chekhov's trigger was when he actually discovered he also got rused even in his "deal" with Hotaru. There was a previous sign that Hotaru was dishonest with Fujiwara even when talking about the deal.

>>2268361
>making Hotaru think Yuma has someone else (not Takeda) who she likes
Are you sure it's not "making Hotaru pretend thinking Yuma has someone else (not Takeda) who she likes"?

>>2268367
I think you're barking up the wrong tree.

>>2268369
I don't think that would really make sense of the way things are written, and also I think for Hotaru, Yuma falling in love with her is too good to be true, so I doubt she has cottoned on to it being her Yuma was taking about.

>>2268366
There are several options for plot points now: two girls get under public humiliation and its trauma, real separation threat between the girls to put Hotaru's in a disadvantageous position such that her mental process can be exposed through vulnerabilities, potentially act of desperation by Hotaru so her true endgame can be explored; then catharsis, Yuma needs to know how Hotaru thinks and somehow fix the situation or it heads to a bad end like Fujiyuu Sekai.

>>2268372
What is the rational gain for releasing the photo?

>>2268376
Yeah, the things will get really ugly for these too.

>>2268378
>rational gain
Why does it need to be a rational gain? This development looks triggered by his conversations with Yuma and Takeda. He doesn't like Takeda being used by lesbians. The photo can put a stop to it (without Fujiwara having to stick his neck out like goody two shoes).

>>2268397
Because by doing this Fujiwara basically broke up the deal with Hotaru which is a net loss.

>>2268397
Fujiwanker is going all "bros before hoes" suddenly? Maybe he really is gay.

>>2268398
How do you know he'd think it's a net loss? Hotaru has been making him pretend to be her boyfriend on double dates where she's trying to help Yuma and Takeda get together. It probably doesn't sit well with Fujiwara that (because of how he misunderstands the situation) he's being used by the lesbians to string Takeda along to mask their lesbian relationship. Getting to fuck Hotaru may not seem worth being used by her as part of that.

>>2268403
"Bros before hoes" is a straight male thing.

>I think Hotaru is dense
>Fujiwara is just the unreasonable bad guy from a soap opera drama imo

Told ya

>>2268361
Thank you so much for the summary!

Can you do a summary for Citrus chapter as well??

Netsuzou Trap is shit

Ange vierge or citrus >>>>>>>>>> this shit (Netsuzou trap)

I'm not even that mad about the NTR, it's just the hetshit that ruins it.

>>2268524
More like Netsuzou Crap, amirite?
Though I'm still hooked and can't stop reading it.

>>2268413
You just described the rational thought process of Fujiwara
>he actually discovered he also got rused even in his "deal" with Hotaru
>he thought he was just doing small favors but he found he was manipulated into fucking with his friend

>>2268553
I don't think he sees it as him being "rused" rather than Takeda

>>2268565
>he thought the deal was a clear cut one with no emotional involvement
>the deal turned out to be making him a manipulation accomplice

>>2268568
I don't think he would see what Hotaru is doing as breaking the deal in the sense you're suggesting.

And it doesn't seem like he feels like she's tricking him. After all, he (mistakenly) thinks he has known what's going on ever since he caught Hotaru and Yuma the first time. He did react to that around that time, but that was a separate issue and isn't driving him now.

So it turns out Fujiwara was just a poor guy who get what he wanted from Hotaru due to their deal but now he gets irked that this affected Takeda?
Or that he was just used by Hotaru and now wants more?

>>2268573
>He recognized that he was being used for Hotaru's game.
>He had every desire to not get emotionally involved with this kind of stuff as he always does
This is basically what you're saying. I don't see any disagreement in nature.

>>2268578
No, I'm not. What I am saying is that I don't think you're seeing it how Fujiwara does.

>>2268582
>It probably doesn't sit well with Fujiwara that he's being used by the lesbians
>Getting to fuck Hotaru may not seem worth being used by her as part of that.
This is literally what you said.

>>2268585
And for some reason you think that's the same as saying:
>He had every desire to not get emotionally involved with this kind of stuff as he always does
I haven't said that because I don't think he sees what Hotaru has done as breaking that (and that wasn't exactly what the terms of his deal with her actually were anyway).

>>2268594
Right, that was a fact of juxtaposition drawn from previous chapter to characterize his motivation of entering the deal which I thought you had internalized but apparently not.
The fact is now he is exiting the deal by releasing the photo which Hotaru knows only he is possible to be in possession of. The immediate reason for exiting a deal is only rationally explained as the conditions of the deal being no longer existent.

>>2268601
>The immediate reason for exiting a deal is only rationally explained as the conditions of the deal being no longer existent.
That's nonsense.

>>2268605
Or you rather prefer an inconsistent sometimes rational sometimes irrational characterization of him?

>>2268606
I think you're stupid if you believe that Fujiwara acts only according to logic, but you're also stupid if you believe it's only rational to break a deal if it's already been broken.

>>2268611
The whole character of Fujiwara is only depicted with plot points far and few between. The only two major plot points that connect him to Hotaru is the deal and the photo the purpose of which are both intentionally withheld in the narrative. Now that the photo is a fired Chekhov's gun, and somehow you believe the author is stupid enough to introduce some random new motivation with no plot support whatsoever that is entirely disconnected from previously established motivation?
You're getting desperately running out of arguments.

>>2268616
Apparently you're stupid enough to not notice that the author has already given this plot point support.

>>2268620
>I can't present an argument therefore they must be stupid!
good job

>>2268621
It's not really my job to point out what you've missed. But for example, pay attention to what he says to Takeda and his expressions in ch 12. That he gives a shit about Takeda being tricked has been foreshadowed.

Whereas there isn't plot support for Fujiwara feeling like Hotaru has broken the deal or tricked him.

>>2267741
>Yuma's hair pink
Why. She is blonde-chestnut

File: character design.jpg (694KB, 1160x833px) Image search: [Google]

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>>2268639
That Yuma's mouth in that image is annoying me a bit...,I guess it won't be like that when it's animated, except for that detail the design is really good.

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>>2268639

They picked up the 1st palette color of the manga.

File: NTR-image.jpg (117KB, 935x701px) Image search: [Google]

117KB, 935x701px

>>2268649
and mixed with this one.

>>2268635
You seriously unironically believe Fujiwara gives a shit about Takeda when he could reveal the truth to Takeda but instead he chose to coercion to try to fuck Yuma and all along half of the alienation between Takeda and Yuma was a direct result of his words to Takeda? The cognitive dissonance is palpable.

>>2267770
>I don't think QUALITY would be an issue because there isn't really much to animate, if at all. The plot is mostly people talking and some lewd. The hard part is in the script, see how they've got two scriptwriters.

If they can pull off some of the passionate scenes in a similar vein like Kuzu no Honkai and not be cheap about it, I'll be impressed

>>2268657
What's ironic is that you seem to believe your objections aren't complete nonsense.

He clearly does give a shit about Takeda, to at least a degree. Enough to eventually be driven to do something to put a stop to the lesbians making a fool of Takeda. That doesn't mean that Fujiwara is the sort of person who would do the right thing to begin with or later admit to Takeda that he knew something was going on, or risk being shot as the messenger or whatever. There's no contradiction, no real dissonance at all in that.

>instead he chose to coercion to try to fuck Yuma
I don't believe he seriously tried that. And since he thinks Yuma was already a lesbian with no actual faithfulness to Takeda, it wouldn't really be contradictory anyway.

>and all along half of the alienation between Takeda and Yuma was a direct result of his words to Takeda?
What? It's hard to tell what point you even think you're making. Do you mean that since Fujiwara might have said something that contributed to Takeda and Yuma breaking up that then means Fujiwara wouldn't give a shit about Takeda being tricked by Yuma? This is not a line of reasoning that makes any actual sense.

>>2268677
>having a self-consistent theory
>ironic
You need to learn what is irony.

>That doesn't mean that Fujiwara is the sort of person who would do the right thing to begin with
With no change in his characterization whatsoever and out of the blue he'd regained his conscience by no longer fucking around and doing the right thing? This is asspull by definition if that's what you make of the story.

That hug between Yuma and Hotaru was way better than watching them kiss.

I think there's still some story left to tell. Like how Hotaru still plans to leave, maybe meet Hotaru's father/familly (where is her mother really) and maybe watch thwm dating for a while.

>>2268683
Yes, I thought that too. I want to see they dating..., but I don't know if will happen because of the all shit that will come yet. Hotaru will probably lose her cold side in the future, I want to see her sweet and in love side again.

>>2268683
Maybe they will end up having sex now, Yuma doesn't will resist anymore because she is aware that she loves Hotaru, then maybe will let or do like Hotaru does with her. Possessive Yuma will show up soon I hope.

>>2268680
You being confident in your powers of reasoning when they're garbage is ironic.

Fujiwara has not been characterized as completely lacking a conscience. The characters aren't that black and white. Do you remember he actually helped Hotaru out by intervening when a guy she dumped got angry? He did it in a low effort way, but it showed he gives a shit enough to help a girl he wasn't even friends with. And a misogynist not standing by while lesbians make a man look stupid makes perfect sense and isn't really a simple matter of doing good, especially if he deals with it in a way that's pretty malicious toward the girls.

>>2268703
>using the word irony without knowing what is irony

Anyway.

>instead he chose to use coercion to try to fuck Yuma
You couldn't explain why this happened.

>and all along half of the alienation between Takeda and Yuma was a direct result of his words to Takeda
And you couldn't understand why this plot point exists as a fact and as a Chekhov's gun.

Holes are everywhere in your theory.

Okay, let's assume your assertion that Fujiwara is doing Takeda a favor this time.

He already knew Takeda had voluntarily and irrevocably given up on Yuma in ch 15 so how exactly was releasing the photo to break up Hotaru and Yuma doing Takeda a favor?
Is he doing it to publicly humiliate Yuma as revenge? Takeda got sick because of shit so how exactly does revenge help Takeda?

The consequence of this act helped Takeda in no way and somehow you can assert he had the intent to do Takeda a favor?

If his action was not exactly doing Takeda a favor, was it about Yuma? Who was it about? Do I have to spell it out?

>>2268703
>a misogynist not standing by while lesbians make a man look stupid
Oh, now you're moving the goalpost by no longer asserting he's doing the right thing and gives a shit about Takeda.
Well, exactly what I was saying. He's doing this to fuck with Hotaru. Since you have zero understanding about the nature of the "deal" I don't expect you to make deeper connection to his previous actions.

>>2268705
You should look into "irony". The meaning of "dramatic irony" in particular may help illuminate the nature of the incongruity that I see between what you say and what is actually the case.

>You couldn't explain why this happened.
I did address it.

>And you couldn't understand why this plot point exists as a fact and as a Chekhov's gun.
I don't think I even want to know what stupid theory you have about this supposed "Chekhov's gun".

>He already knew Takeda had voluntarily and irrevocably given up on Yuma in ch 15
You really are terrible at following the story. It was implied in ch 15 that Takeda had not actually given up (and that made Fujiwara walk off, not wanting to hear more). And it seems you must not know what the conversations Fujiwara had with Takeda and Yuma were about in ch 16. Those are crucial to the context of Fujiwara at the end of the chapter.

>>2268725
I never said I thought he's doing the right thing. I said he isn't the sort of person who'd do the right thing in the first place. That wasn't to imply I think he's doing the right thing now.

He does give a shit about Takeda.

>>2268736
>dramatic irony
>"""Chekhov's gun"""
Learn more about drama and irony before you post.

>Takeda had not actually given up (and that made Fujiwara walk off
It seems you had trouble with comprehension even you read it. Fujiwara walked away because he was just tired of this farce and all from both sides. Nothing implies Takeda had not given up.

>it seems you must not know what the conversations
Again, you seem impaired of connecting the dots. He relayed truthful facts between Takeda and Yuma and took unilateral action without talking to Hotaru. If there is he was doing the deed about anyone it's Hotaru.

>>2268756
>Nothing implies Takeda had not given up.
What did Fujiwara say when he walked off?

If you can't understand that much, you seriously ought to accept that you are not capable of following the story properly.

>>2268759
>希望的観測
Fujiwara was just pointing out Takeda was spouting useless shit based on his own imagination.

What do you think is it?

>>2268762
Okay, right, so you can't understand even that much.

Fujiwara realized that what Takeda is saying means Takeda has not actually given up. Takeda is hoping things won't work out between Yuma and the other guy so he'll still have a chance. That's why it's 希望的

What Takeda was saying to Fujiwara in ch 16 makes it even more obvious he's still holding onto hope.

And in Fujiwara's conversation with Yuma he uses present tense when he asks
>お前らがレズってんの隠すために武田キープしてんの?

>hotaru is dense

kill it with fire

>>2268772
>希望的
You just revealed your own ignorance.
>希望的観測(きぼうてきかんそく、英: wishful thinking)は、信念の一形態であり、証拠や合理性ではなく、「そうあって欲しい」とか「そうだったらいいな」という希望に影響されて判断を行うことをいう。一般に、好ましい結果が好ましくない結果よりもありそうだと予測することを指す。
>speculation without objective evidence
And that was exactly what Takeda was trying to do - rationalizing about Yuma's behaviors without actually knowing the facts.

Seriously, I just want to theorize but your utter failure of understanding and connecting anything deeper than the literal narrative is not an excuse of you laughable attempts to shut down any discussion of speculahs. kthxbye.

>>2268777
She doesn't belive that Yuma will love her back, but I hope she realise that Yuma is acting weird over her soon.

>>2268780
The definition you're quoting supports me, you moron.

i was kind of mad about this chapter until i took a look at the citrus raws. at least we even have a plot, compared to that

>>2268780
Dude, what is wrong with you

>>2268783
In the first chapters I thought Hotaru was sharp and would be aware of everything going on around her but in later chapters I came to realize Hotaru is actually dense - not as much as Yuma - and maybe in her mind she thought she never standed a chance with Yuma.

>>2268795
please no. these types of innocent characters don't belong in a kodama manga

This entire discussion made me laugh kek. I belive that Takeda inside doesn't given up entirely about Yuma yet, but he wants to know what is happening with her, because he cares (and still likes) about her. About the Fujiwara thing, I think that he wants to show to Takeda (and screw up the two girls too, because probably he hates that Yuma is using Takeda to masquerade her lesbianism, this what he is thinking) what Yuma was actually doing with Hotaru all this time and with that screw up the relationship between Takeda and Yuma and probably Yuma and Hotaru.

>>2268788
Haha, Yuzu was a fucking retarded, she pissed me off, and yes, I don't see any plot in that manga anymore.

>>2268795
Me too, yes, I think that too. She is depressed and already given up to think that Yuma will return her feeling after all her tentatives.

>>2268797
Stop anon, you doesn't know all about Kodama, she can create all what she wants and just because her other works was like that it doesn't mean that this one have to be the same.

>>2268795
That's what ruined this manga for me. Hotaru is even more stupid than Yuma. She can only act tought around Yuma. First three chapters were misleading. This manga is besicaly Fujiyuu Sekai 2.0.

>>2268806
>Hotaru is even more stupid than Yuma

Anyone in that manga is smarter than Yuma please.

>>2268806
I have a lot of patience for Kodama and I generally love her melodramatic schtick, but that manga was just bad desu

>>2268809
that manga was comedy gold. you take that back

>>2268809
>>2268831
seriously this actually happens:
>"you wanna be raped"
>"k"

>>2268804
>Stop anon, you doesn't know all about Kodama, she can create all what she wants and just because her other works was like that it doesn't mean that this one have to be the same.
This. Idk if it's the same anon but the person keeps bringing up Kodama's previous works. Yes she likes to write some fucked up stories and her characters are not usually those 2D you see in most mangas but you can't really predict the outcome of her stories based on previous ones, they're not the same and all have different settings. I'd say works like Morinaga's are usually the same and very predictable.

>>2268787
Supporting what? "Having an expectation of positive outcome" says nothing about the specifics of this positive quality. If you're unable to understand rationalization there is nothing left for me to say to you.

File: 1487234400573.jpg (209KB, 1100x500px) Image search: [Google]

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>>2268881
I laughed.

>>2268846
Understanding her prior works is the first of not pulling shit out your ass. Her works are not about fucked up stories if that's all you can see. Her works are about mindgames in relationships. And only by reading her works would you understand the origin of the archetypes of the characters and the nature of the character dynamics in her current work.
I've yet unable to provide an essay about the full detail of what is just described, yet I expected something better like a coherent theory to cover it all from the another anon than spewing nothing of value but semantic nuggets aiming at proving I am illiterate.

>>2268891
Jesus Christ anon, you fucking need to slow down, you are obsessed.

File: 26e8b48e8c5494ee3a77d7b424f5e0fe98257efa.jpg (495KB, 580x1660px) Image search: [Google]

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This is literally one of my favorite scenes in this manga so far.
It just feels so real,like thinking about your crush and wishing you could just came across them that moment. (this never happens in real life though kek)
Or thinking about your emotions and that you should start moving on from this person..but then that person cames up as a sign that you are unable to let them go.

Kodama sure has done a good job presenting Yuma's feelings through visual representation in this scene. Also the wind blowing and Yuma looking at the moon.

>>2268777
It's been one chapter and some fo you guys already are sure Hotaru is now dense...
like wait until the end. I'm sure there is more than just that. And even if she fails to completely see Yuma's new feelings, that doesn't make her dense.

>>2268915
This, Ikr, she did a really nice job with this scene and the part that Yuma stared Hotaru speachless after that was sweet.

Chaosteam only wants to do Citrus (they are already finishing the translation and editing the new chapter), damn, they are fast only for that manga and for Netsuzou and My unrequited love they are fucking slow.

>>2268946
It's almost like Chaosteam is terrible

>>2268946
At least we get a translation eventually. Imagine if noone wanted to translate this.
I mean, I dislike that I have to wait much longer than Citrus for NTR, but maybe people should start acting instead of complaining? Maybe start typesetting and form a new translating team?

There is an anon who wrote a summury here above.

>>2268949
>>2268957
Sorry, I know that is better than nothing and I wait patiently too, but I just wanted to put it that out a bit.
But they need to put more attention too, in the last chapter they translated wrong some parts and someone needed to tell them, they even fixed that yet.

>>2268968
They won't. Especially with how they want to be treated

>>2268891
I'd agree with >>2268901, but I love 4D chess discussion. Your psychology student ramblings are pretty entertaining.

>>2268361
Yuma is being the manipulator now. As expected from Kodama. And i though yuma will stay sane till the end. Now she fully became a "Kodama Naoko's protagonist".

>>2269004
There is a difference between being a manipulator and not knowing how to properly confess your feelings.
I don't see how Yuma is maniluating Hotaru now. It's not like Hotaru doesn't want to kiss her either, so Yuma said a lie that she likes someone to get her to practice.

>>2269006
>so Yuma said a lie that she likes someone to get her to practice.
That's manipulation, anon.

>>2269015
It's not the time first where there are simultaneously two manipulators in the story and the weaker manipulator tries manipulation which becomes an expected move in the eyes of the stronger manipulator and gets counter-manipulated in the end.

>>2269015
I meant it with the whole sentence, that it's not like Yuma said that lie to get Hotaru to practice with her.
Yuma lied because she was unable to confess her true feelings. And since Hotaru doesn't mind kissing her (which Yuma knows), then where's the manipulation in this?

>>2269024
Just because this happened in another manga of the same author, I don't think we should judge based on a different story.
So far, Yuma has shown no signs of manipulating Hotaru, including today. Like seriously, when did she try to manipulate her? Lying is different.
You are too quick to draw conclusions only by just one chapter.

>>2269028
>when did she try to manipulate her
Manipulation isn't always initiated by the party in dominant position. Manipulation here is essential a defensive maneuver aimed at securing the confirmation of a stable relationship at the cost of its tactic being underhanded or deceptive. The fact that Yuma telling a lie means it's already technically manipulation. Though keep in mind this is total neutral discussion about the facts without moral judgement.

>>2269025
Well let's not forget that Yuma thinks Hotaru wanted to move to get away from her. She wanted to do something to try to keep hold of her. I agree that she cant be honest with her feelings, and im saying that's why she retorts to manipulation. Don't try to justify her actions.

Theres also a possibility that she cant confess solely because she thinks hotaru wanted to get away from her, but she still wanted her by her side and is now using the usual kodama tricks.

>>2269037
Exactly. A naive attempt at manipulation at the cost of moral integrity by Yuma would be clearly identified by Hotaru as a declaration of emotional dependency. The only questions are how much would Hotaru push Yuma to her limit to prove the dependency and how they are gonna handle the shitstorm of the photo.

>>2269042
Followup thought on the yuri photo shitstorm.
The objective consequences of publicizing it would be: 1) Yuma would be perceived as a lesbian; 2) Yuma would become socially ostracized because of heteronormativity and scandalous behaviors; 3) Hotaru would suffer minimum mental damage because she's been used to being socially ostracized. Without her social support network and under intense insecurities by peer pressure, the only support Yuma can seek would be from Hotaru. This would enter a scenario where the relationship between Yuma and Hotaru is more stable than ever because Yuma is out of choice. Yuma's parents may intervene but that would only further deprive Yuma of friendship and intensify her insecurities and longing for Hotaru.
Now speculation: The new situation would justify Hotaru abandoning her apparent plan to move away from Yuma because she would "need to protect" Yuma if she cares about Yuma in either altruist or selfish way. Hotaru could then assume the role of a protector by taking the blame and defending against moral accusations for Yuma. The trigger of the whole new scenario is objectively the action of Fujiwara and the new scenario is conducive to Hotaru's desire of binding Yuma with her. Now this is where it might get contentious, but there are two evidences that may be used to examine Hotaru's motivation: 1) the flashback when Hotaru was deeply traumatized by the abandonment by Yuma for her new friends; 2) the fact that there isn't any visible event that may result in Hotaru internalizing a change in her behaviors.

I am curious about... Why people are taliking more about yaoi than yuri, in this yuri manga.
https://disqus.com/home/discussion/tumangaonline/netsuzou_trap_capitulo1400_online_en_tumangaonline_por_ocio_fs/best/
WTF

>>2269109
Sasuga fujoshis...

I'm happy that we are talking more about this series, I like to see the point of view of the people about the story, now that the things are getting interesting.
A lot of people hates this manga because of the ntr (that isn't so bad at all and haven't that anymore) and because don't payed attention to the story.

>>2269109
disgraceful. yaoi fans have so much good content already, we're the ones who are starved Somalians.

>>2268957
I'm up for that. I can do the typesetting/editing if someone translates it. We have digital scans every month now, the scanlation is no longer a problem.

>>2269109
Uhm as far as my spanish goes it's just a post of someone saying they wish Fujiwara and Takeda would get it on so that way Yuma and Hotaru could get it on at peace and then other people agreeing. And I lol'ed at the "why don't they shoot stupid Takeda" comment.

>>2269147
Nice, now we need someone to does the translation, then it's set.

Anyone wants to translate?

When will this get its trailer? Will it come out in the summer?

>>2270552
Probably next month or april that will out the PV. Yes, will out on summer.

>>2270554
That means Citrus will come out in the fall.

>>2270560
Yes, the 1st one will be Netsuzou on summer and on fall is Citrus.

>>2270560
I'm really excited to see the PV of Netsuzou to be honest, I am a bit afraid too, because it's a new studio... but I guess they will surprise us, will be their 1st anime after all (they only did shorts before).

>>2270562
hopefully we still have net neutrality by then...

Are the translations out?

>>2271237
No, will take a time until Chaosteam translate, we need to wait unfortunatly.

>>2271237
>>2271262
They translated Citrus real quick this time around so it won't take too long probably.

>>2271311
I hope so...

>>2271311
They always do Citrus in two days, maybe they're scared some other team my pick it up/translate first or are just eager for the likes. It doesn't make a difference, we'll be probably have to wait another week and a half for NTR, the spanish translation will probably come out first.

>>2271353
This sucks, sometimes I think they doesn't care about the other mangas that they does. Yeah, propably the spanish version will out first. (I can read the spanish version at least).

>>2271356
>(I can read the spanish version at least).
Me too. I contacted the person who translates it to spanish asking them if they're fluent in english, if they are I'm gonna ask them if they're willing to translate to english too and I'd take care of typesetting/editing, english is not my native language so we'd still need someone to QC the translation.

>>2271382
Or maybe someone who's fluent in both english and spanish could translate from the Ocio FS translation to english, as long as they agree to it.

>>2271382
>>2271383
Ohhh, that is nice anon.

From Chaosteam
>my unrequited love chapter 3 will be the next CHAOSTEAM project. sorry for delaying this,we had CITRUS on the works. hopefully we can finish this soon and start on NTR new chapter and unrequited love chapter 4 as well. thank you for your patience.
Fck And now we should wait about a month for translate

>>2272570
Lmaooo. Good thing I can understand spanish.

>>2271542
Sorry, the person from Ocio FS actually agreed to it but I won't be able to do it anymore. I saw that the raws from the digital version are too dirty (even though it's digital scans ????) and it'd take too much time to clean everything and I don't really have much to spend working on it.

>>2272570
I hope they translate all that before the next Yuri Hime Magazine outs (will out really fast now that we have less than a normal month to wait).

>>2272611
Ahh no problem anon, the style of Netsuzou that is a bit off on the raws (that sometimes hurts my eyes). The good thing that the spanish version outs before the english one that takes so long to out. Know spanish is really good kek.

>>2272611
>Sorry, the person from Ocio FS actually agreed to it but I won't be able to do it anymore. I saw that the raws from the digital version are too dirty (even though it's digital scans ????) and it'd take too much time to clean everything and I don't really have much to spend working on it.
Good. So maybe some kind anon want to typeset it?

>>2272570
Who the fuck cares about mul? NTR is more popular....

>>2272657
Spanish anon can post the translation on pastebin and I will try to clean and typeset

>>2273440
Actually I'm almost done with cleaning

>>2273566
Did you contact Ocio FS or are you going to translate yourself?

>>2273634
I just clean it. You guys can do the rest If you want

BTW Ocio FS already translated 16 chapter on spanish
So can someone contact them and ask if they can translate on eng?

>>2273695
If you clean it, just post the translation somewhere too. The rest of easy. And even without typesetting people can still read the translation like text.

>>2273728
No, you don't get it. I'm not gonna translate it cuz i don't read moon and english is not my native language. I'll just clean raws from japanese hieroglyphs.
We still needed someone for translation and typesetting.

There you go, clean version (well almost)
https://mega.nz/#!S8VTBARK!8-574z_sOAb4UYqOgJ3yKq7gD_GDwcu3yp80YHJZ3S8

>>2273756
I was speaking to anon who knows Spanish and they could translate from Spanish to English. Not sure if you are the same and I quoted you

https://www.tumangaonline.com/lector/Netsuzou-Trap/9719/16.00/6304

I guess Fujiwara will trigger their changing of relationship, they need to change to get out of that situation (Hotaru and Yuma), probably something bad will happen for these two start to change and be more honest with each other. (they need to change or nothing will go further).

>>2274465
>they need to change to get out of that situation
No, the current situation is exactly what Hotaru has meant to get into, that is, the trap proper.

>they need to change or nothing will go further
Yuma has started to change into being naively manipulative. We shall see her full reaction in the next chapter.

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>>2274583
I really don't know if Hotaru is doing of purpose now, the face that she did in that page is more like, "I'm fine being used by you".
I really want to see what Yuma will do now.

Sorry, my grammar is shit today.

Is it out?

>>2274696
>that fucking height difference
Why can't Kodama just write something happy for once where we also get to the qts she draws be together

>>2274977
Only the spanish version, maybe the english one outs this weekend.

>>2275005
That wouldn't be funny, she likes suffering (like us), I think that they will be happy some point in the story, we need to wait.
I want to see they dating to be honest.

>>2275005
If you like happy yuri stories then you are obviously in the wrong manga.

>>2275089
>If you like happy yuri stories then you are obviously in the wrong manga.
Octave is my favourite yuri manga. I just think it's a crying shame that they look so good together and we so rarely get to see it. Maybe the anime at least will kickstart the fanart.

>>2275090
Eventually they'll get their happy ending anon. Not sure how long we'll get to see them dating though, but i think not much.
I guess maybe after anime it will get some fanfictions too.

>>2275102
I can't imagine there'll be much fodder for fanfiction other than PWP and ending fic, if they get in before it ends. I just want to /see/ them together.

Also, Renai Manga was reasonably happy, we just never got to see them together romantically.

>>2275090
I guess we will eventually see them together, she can explore more the things now that Yuma accepted her love for Hotaru. Who knows what the autor will do now.

>>2275109
Well this is what happens in most romance manga. Tbh I really don't know how much of a story they could tell after Yuma and Hotarun get together. Or maybe I lack imagination

>>2275112
Well will depends on what the shitstorm will do and what they going to do too, but they can be together and the story continues. Will depend more of Yuma's actions now than Hotaru's.

>>2275112
The point of NTR is obviously the will they/won't they drama/how will they, but at the very least we still haven't established why Hotaru wants to move out. Potential for some drama there with them still being together.

>>2275112
I guess Kodama will make Yuma and Hotaru a true couple, they will need to surpass the difficulty that Fujiwara will do to them together I think.

>>2275102
The current trend points to a Bad End like Fujiyuu Sekai. Nobody is capable of stopping Hotaru in doing what she's doing.

>>2275112
Saburouta made it work.

>>2275517
>made it work

Err..., I don't think so, they aren't even are acting like a couple because of Mei's autism and Yuzu's behaviour.

>>2275654
Oh I'm sorry I dropped it like 6 chapters ago but since Saburouta kept introducing characters and making new arcs imo she kept the story going in a way. Is it canon that Mei is austistic?

>>2275696
No, but she acts like one and Yuzu refused Mei again, then I don't care much anymore.
At least the new character is interesting (my favorite girl in the entire manga now), but what pisses me off are the actions that both Mei and Yuzu are doing.

>>2275706
lol I thought there was a Mei has autism arc going. I think I'll read everything again before the anime airs, maybe I'll like the new girl.

Ch 16 Rough TL (based on the spanish translation)
http://pastebin.com/FDWFRJh4

>>2276646
Thanks anon

>>2276646
Thanks a lot, you are awesome!

Chaosteam translation
>boards.4chan.org/u/thread/2264997

>>2279263
oops
>imgur.com/a/p5wLR

>>2279265
>let me practice with you

what are you DOOIIGNGG. also are they never going to address whats his face possibly hitting hotaru?

>>2279265
Wait...so Fujiwara said "to cover up the fact that you are both lesbians"
Could that possibly mean Hotaru has told him she is gay?

>>2280397
I was actually happy they hugged instead of fooling around again. It felt more genuine.

I liked this chapter, there is actual character development, and Yuma is realizing that Hotaru is the bad guy.
Last two chapters Hotaru is also drawn in a different way, she looks cuter and blushes more instead of her mischievous smirk.
I think that's on purpose too, and maybe it means she has accepted the fact that Yuma doesn't like her.

>>2280562
I think that Hotaru accepted that Yuma will never like her back too, but after Yuma cried she got even more busy with more than just that night work of hers. I think that she accelerated even further her plans to move out of there, because she doesn't want to cause troubles to Yuma anymore.

>>2280557
Or he already figured out what she is trying to do, he is a smart guy.

>>2280557
No, he thinks they're lesbians because of what he has seen.

I was wondering why Kodama mentioned "soap opera" and so looked it up. It turns out "soap opera" doesn't really mean exactly what she meant. She mentioned
>昼ドラ
>ドロドロ
昼ドラ is "soap opera" translated in Japanese but in their context the term doesn't means the show would have the same long-running and repetitive and melodramatic characteristics as in western soap operas. The term 昼ドラ just means drama broadcast in the early afternoon (thus josei oriented). And indeed this work isn't meant to be long-running, repetitive and melodramatic as its characterization being fairly psychologically grounded. Calling Kodama's intention as a literal "soap opera" would be misleading.

ドロドロ figuratively refers to the "sticky" appearance of the love-hate relationship drama typically involving love triangles, cheating, jealousy, and revenge. They even have this phrase ドロドロ系ドラマ ("sticky" genre drama). For comparison, Mari Okada's True Tears and Toradora are also described to have great depiction of sticky character relationships according to nicopedia.

Kodama just wanted to make a drama.

>>2281359
I guess I can expect the worse to happen then.

10 more days to go yet, dammit. I'm anxious to know what Fujiwara will do to screw up Hotaru and Yuma with that photo.

File: C6OjhAsU8AAcUpS.jpg (266KB, 1920x1080px) Image search: [Google]

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What she is saying?