If God is all powerful then he cannot be all good.

If God is all powerful then he has the power to be all good even if it creates a paradox

>>87616648
Explain how, Lex. Your dumbass fortune cookie philosophy holds no weight and only sounds profound to neckbeard atheists.

>>87616648
Truly the thinking man's Superhero movie

>>87616689
Being all powerful doesn't entail the ability to create logical impossibilities
Much like how God couldn't create a square with no corners

whats the point of proving superman isn't all-powerful? he never claimed to be. he's just doing his best to help as many people as he can

>>87616793
Oh, so He lacks a bit of power then it seems
Go back to logic school, we're finished here

File: 5be3a6d0a3a6c6b21a275b13f5effd89--real-superman-original-superman.jpg (96KB, 736x936px) Image search: [Google]

96KB, 736x936px

Fuck off nihilistman

File: pta.jpg (59KB, 464x599px) Image search: [Google]

59KB, 464x599px

>>87616799
If he's not all powerful then he can't be God
This is because the film explained that several people were worshiping him as such
>>87616833
>mfw I actually studied logic and got a first
You can't lack something which is impossible to attain

>>87616838
This is Superman in the real modern world, boy

File: alderaanshotfirst.gif (2MB, 320x240px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 320x240px

I'd settle for very powerful and not fictional. We should start a religion promising to worship the first aliens that show up on our doorstep with a planet destroyer ray looking for some cheap labor. It'll make us look less disingenuous than if we wait until they show up to start it.

>>87616648
>Believing the New Testament meme
If god really exists he's probably much closer to the one depicted in the old testament.

Why exactly would god not be able to be all good if he was also all powerful? Wouldn't only an all powerful god be able to be all good?

>>87617302
>thinking there is a difference

Really activates my almonds

>>87617347
Because if he's all powerful and all good then why would he allow shitty things to happen?

>>87617302
It seems very odd to imagine a potential all-powerful being as that petty and insecure.

>>87617427
Aren't shitty things just inevitable? Like if two men are pining after a woman, only one of them are going to end up with her (ignoring cuck shit)

>>87616896
I received 100% in Formal, Informal, and Symbolic as well as Problems of God and Religion and my dissertation was about this issue, you aren't fooling anyone, GO BACK TO LOGIC SCHOOL

>>87616793
Yes, God could create a square with no corners, if he were omnipotent. That's because what a square would qualify for would change according to his will. He is the rules.

>>87617478
An all powerful being would be that petty and insecure. They would believe that their actions are right since they have the power to determine right and wrong. They would expect obedience from others because what is the point in defying an all powerful being?

>>87617427
Because he is not your nanny. Anyway, there is a afterlife so whatever bad happens to you, it will pass eventually.

Willard Quine walks into a bar. The bartenders are Copi and Cohen. He asks them, "How can God be good if evil exists?"
They nod and pour him a drink.

>>87617773
You cannot be both powerful and insecure.

>>87617846
If one is all powerful one has the power and perhaps the necessity to be insecure, as well as all other states, simultaneously

>>87616648

God is the only definition for existence, everything he does is right and good.

>>87617773
>Yes, God could create a square with no corners, if he were omnipotent. That's because what a square would qualify for would change according to his will. He is the rules
That literally isn't how it works. Consider the question
>can the dog yellow?
There is no logical answer because the question doesn't make sense. The same applies to making a square without corners.
When you get past the language-structures (ie "lol change the definition of square!") then you cannot make an x that is y (where x=/=y), it is a contradiction

This also applies to the age old question
>can God make a rock so big that he couldn't lift it?
There is no answer because the question doesn't make sense

The only concession I would accept in this would be if you were to argue that logic wasn't an objective structure. But I don't know how you would argue that

>>87618283
How does "can God make a rock so big/heavy that he couldn't lift it" make no sense? The answer is supposed to create a paradox.

>>87618454
Cause you can rewrite the question as
>is it possible to create a logical impossibility?

>>87618684
>he thinks omnipotence is bound to the strictures of logic
back to logic school buddy

>>87617676
>I received 100% in Formal, Informal, and Symbolic as well as Problems of God and Religion and my dissertation was about this issue

That's nice. Can I get fries with that burger?

>>87618283
Does omnipotence make sense? Is it logically possible to be omnipotent?

>>87618787
Yes. There is nothing inherently contradictory about omnipotence
Though it does somewhat depend on what you class as omnipotence I suppose (this is actually an entire area of Christology that people dedicate their lives to lol)

>>87618787
Not currently possible, and likely will never be achieved, but theoretically it's possible.

>>87616648
If God is all powerful, then he cannot be all good.
Oh look, No premises. Just a conclusion. Non argument, a statement asserted as fact without backing up. Why Lex. Why?

>>87616648

I don't think we were meant to take Lex's musings at face value to actually consider. He's a villain. He's got a juvenile level understanding of philosophy, but instead of being some idiot behind a computer, he's got the resources to act on it.

>>87617807
Then he is not all powerful, because if he was all powerful, and all good, preventing bad things from happening to you would be beyond trivial to be able to be done without effort at all.

I wish I didn't have to solve captchas to post ITT. Is a 4chan pass worth it? Any pass users here?

>>87618973
The film, mistakenly, assumed its audience would be smart enough to know the outline of the problem of evil argument

>>87619073
They're pretty worth it for the hidden posts I suppose
Other than that, they're pretty pointless though

>>87616715
But that is exactly what Snyder meant!
B R A V A
R
A
V
A

File: Image2.jpg (107KB, 1455x1355px) Image search: [Google]

107KB, 1455x1355px

>>87616648

>>87618787
Yes, but not simultaneously omniscient and all loving or good. Thats why I dont believe in an Omniscient, All powerful god, I believe in a very powerful, very scient and mostly omniscient and sort of on my side but not really all the time, mostly just on the side of humanity in general set of gods. The Asatru religion makes the most sense.
If The Gods are so powerful why is there bad? Because they have better things to do than babysit your weak ass and pressure makes gems.
If The Gods or God is all knowing, why is X: Because they are not all powerful, but very very powerful.
Why do the Gods need sacrifice/devotion/prayer.
They don't really. They just are symbols of friendship and bond with them, trust built up. They help in little quiet ways that arent too big, Give you courage, and calm and if you live right, you get to come to their hall when you die, or you get to rest peacefully with your ancestors depending on how you lived.

Why? What purpose does this serve?
They need us to fight for them. There's a War coming at the end of time.

When is The end coming?
Who fucking knows, here are the signs, it may not come for another ten thousand years.
IS the end really the end?
no, just the end of *this* after *This* there will be another, who knows what that will be there, dont worry about it.

When will I die, do they know is it determined?
Yeah, it is but that can change, and the way you die is up to really. Dont worry about it. When you die, you die. No sense worrying about it so live.
What about Sin?
Pay your debts, be a good person, make amends when you fuck up and keep your word as best you can. Evil is what is harmful to yourself, your family ,your community , your country and/or your species in that order. It's relative, just dont be a dick for no reason.

>>87619055
Mathematically speaking, any evil you suffer on earth is meaningless if you are rewarded with infinite paradise. Take the limit of (x•k)/((y•n) where x is suffering, y is paradise (enjoyment, happiness), k is time onEarth and n is time in Heaven; as n approaches infinity. Nothing matters. Nunnadis matters :(

>>87619361
autism

>>87618283
The original question of whether or not God could create a square with no corners, then, is also nonsensical. And you know that's not what I meant with the 'lol he changes the definition', God changing how we perceive, interpret, and interact with a square object (which is well within the power of an omnipotent to do) is far more different than some shithead changing the definition of a square in Merriam-Webster's.

And the answer to if God could lift a rock he made that cannot be lifted is yes. It is either that both outcomes can fit within the logic of omnipotence or neither can, it has nothing to do with whether logic is objective or not (which in itself is not a logical statement in this argument seeing as God was the creator of logic). Which is mainly why I don't believe in an omnipotent YHWH and I'm a pantheist, but that's beside the point.

>>87619996
>The original question of whether or not God could create a square with no corners, then, is also nonsensical.
Correct
>And the answer to if God could lift a rock he made that cannot be lifted is yes
Incorrect as then God is not omnipotent, hence the paradox
> It is either that both outcomes can fit within the logic of omnipotence or neither can
Incorrect, the question is the problem not the answers

Consider
>What hat is the King of France wearing?
There is no correct answer to this question because the question makes at least 1 (if not two) presupposition errors

>it has nothing to do with whether logic is objective or not
Sure it does. If logic is objective then there are truths which exist because of logical necessity and not because of a conscious willing by God
Not to sound pretentious but I really recommend you read some philosophical theology if you're interested in this.
>(which in itself is not a logical statement in this argument seeing as God was the creator of logic)
God created you or I, yet free will allows us to choose our paths. Thus if I eat an orange, it's not because God wills me to eat an orange but because I choose to do so
Similarly, if logic is objective, 12x12 equals 144 not because God wills it but because it's a logical necessity

>>87616715
Because if he was all powerful, then there would only be evil in the world (ie, Luthor's dad beating his ass) if he allowed it, meaning he's not all good. Maybe, just maybe, you only thought BvS was bad because you're too stupid to follow the plot.

>>87619730
That was actually an excellent post, retard.

File: amy-schumer.jpg (61KB, 980x490px) Image search: [Google]

61KB, 980x490px

>>87621403
>my mum thought my post was good

>>87616648

- Albert Einstein, 2004

>>87621459
Yes, calling anything you don't understand autism and posting images of hot women makes you not a retard. Quit being retarded. Oh wait, you cannot.

>>87616793

yes it does as being all powerful is a logical impossibility in itself.

you cant logically be all powerful. so if you are, you've already defied logic and impossibilities

File: DevPatel2.jpg (28KB, 300x281px) Image search: [Google]

28KB, 300x281px

>>87621568
>posting images of hot women

>>87621642
>you cant logically be all powerful
Please explain the logical contradiction with omnipotence (which will interesting since if you do so you'll literally destroy the entire field of philosophical theology (which is a very large field) - so no pressure)

>>87621778
Don't have to. I'm omnipotent.
Back to logic school, spaz

File: lex luthor.webm (2MB, 952x398px) Image search: [Google]

2MB, 952x398px

>>87616648
Jesse Eisenburg should have gotten an Oscar for this role.

fuck the haters

>>87622157

>superman's face when lex luthor is saying edgy incomprehensible shit

>>87616648
And how would you know what good is just because it may affect you in a negative way

>>87621778
omnipotence implies omniscience, omniscience precludes free will. Free will precludes omnipotence.

>>87622740
>omnipotence implies omniscience
no it doesn't
and there's a very large area devoted to whether or not free will and omniscience are mutually exclusive (what counts as omniscience? what counts as free will?)
try again

>>87622804
Whats that? mental gymnastics in theology?

You need to know everything in order to be able to do anything. So omniscience is a component of omnipotence. But if you know everything that can ever happen, then free will isn't possible. If free will isn't possible (flubbed this previously) then omnipotence is also not possible.

But since theology is nothing but etymology with pretense, this is all pointless.

>>87622927
>You need to know everything in order to be able to do anything
No you don't. What on earth even slightly makes you think this?

>>87623012
You can't do what you don't know how to do. If you don't know how to do some stuff, then you can not do anything.

Like I said, theology is nothing but word games, trying to argue god into existence with the definitions of human words.

File: obscured stranger.jpg (1KB, 102x125px) Image search: [Google]

1KB, 102x125px

>>87616648
sounds like something a Moloch worshiper would say

>>87623097
I can set fire to a match without understanding thermodynamics
I can drive a car without understanding gear boxes or engines
I don't know what even slightly makes you think that omnipotence requires omniscience but if you could prove it I'd be open to hearing why

But so far your argument has been quite weak

>>87623279
You are given the ability to do absolutely anything you can imagine, just by imagining it. Any underlying physical requirements of what you imagine will be sorted out by friggin magic, so no stupid situations like "I IMAGINE A SUN MADE OF LIONS" collapsing into a singularity or something due to physical law.

Now.

Can you do something you can't imagine? If not, how can you claim this is omnipotence?

>>87623139
now now... play nice
you're right tho

>>87623535
Because, as was earlier mentioned, free will necessitates that there will be some information you cannot know
Now say I had the ability to multiply any numbers in my head
And then someone asked me to square Obama's social security number
I would say I couldn't because I didn't what it was

This would not mean that I didn't have the ability to multiply any numbers, as if I knew the numbers I would be able to

That you equate it to magic is probably the mistake you're making. It's not magic. It's God having complete control over creation

So for your "Can you do something you can't imagine?", no. Because you didn't say you have omnipotence, you said you had the ability to do anything you could imagine. So the answer is literally embodied in the premise. That's not omnipotence.

A better question would be "what counts as omnipotence?"
This too is hotly debated in philosophical theology (especially when it comes to Christology and they're trying to understand how Jesus can be both human and divine but that's a whole other issue)

>>87623970
Do you have a basic grasp of the concept of infinity? The eternities of non-existence on either end of your life? You kinda need these to have any conception of omnipotence/omniscience. Can do some stuff isn't omnipotence. Can do a lot of stuff isn't omnipotence. The same way a number with less than infinite zeros is still infinitely less than infinity. Infinity divided by any number is still infinity. Infinity divided by infinity is still infinity.

Not knowing some specific string of numbers doesn't mean you can't multiply all numbers. But being limited in any way, shape, or form, precludes omnipotence. Because no matter how much you can do, if there is anything you can't, then you aren't omnipotent.

>>87624286
I know you want to sound smart because you clearly have never studied any of this, but what you just said is nonsense.
Here's some light-reading, use the footnotes if you actually want to learn about this
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/omniscience/
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/omnipotence/

File: ApplicationFrameHost_2017-09-11_20-31-43.png (87KB, 219x221px) Image search: [Google]

87KB, 219x221px

>>87622579
>mfw cant be all good

>>87624286
>>87624435
I'm sorry, that probably sounded mean.
What I'm saying is that you have an arbitrary dictionary-definition of these terms that you've rationalised and thought about in your own head. But when these terms are used in a philosophical sense, scholars use the bible as a reference to understand what they mean. Whether or not God's properties 'count' as omnipotence/omniscience is again another entire area

But seriously, read up on it if you're curious

File: god problem of evil summed up.png (108KB, 500x667px) Image search: [Google]

108KB, 500x667px

To sum up this thread for those who still don't understand the OP

>>87624435
>>87624643
>omnipotence: complete/maximal power
>omniscience: complete/maximal knowledge

Wow, its like nothing I've said is contradicted or anything. Sorry for going off script, I guess. How dare me.

Since you're getting snarky, allow me to just atomize the elephant in the room.

Theological debate, between theologians, is ultimately pointless because it will be predicated upon the idea that God does exist and is everything that is attributed to Him is fundamentally true. Any conclusion that even suggests the non-existence of god or brushes against Epicurus must be reevaluated and words must be redefined until its resettled that God is real, is omniscient, omnipotence is possible, and free will exists, otherwise the theologian is worshiping an entity that isn't all that great, doesn't know a whole lot, or is knowingly creating people hes knowingly dooming to lives of misery and suffering and/or eternities of punishment.

All three of these concepts (omnipotence, omniscience, free will) are fundamentally contradictory and no amount of word play can change this.

File: im just like a regular person who eats pizza.jpg (17KB, 480x360px) Image search: [Google]

17KB, 480x360px

>>87625010
>completely ignores the articles
>completely ignores that these terms mean things beyond arbitrary dictionary definitions
>tries saying a philosophical debate that he's engaged in is pointless
Wow... that's like rage-quitting an argument...

>>87625148
>can't read

...

This thread is hilarious

File: IMG_0708.jpg (477KB, 1625x2366px) Image search: [Google]

477KB, 1625x2366px

>>87616799
It's not even about any of that to Lex. It's literally all a smokescreen. The entire film, Superman is fixating on the people who are reacting to him like he's a god. It scares him, that some people are going a little nuts with the knowledge that a superhuman alien lives among them.

The entire film, we see Lex browbeating people with whatever he thinks they're afraid of - other "gods" among us, a rogue Superman, etc. he's doing precisely that same thing when he's face to face with Clark - selling him back his own fear packaged as a dangerous lunatic with a grudge against "god" holding his mother hostage.

The best part is he doesn't even think of Clark as a god, nor does Bruce, and yet they're the only two people who voice what so many others are coming to believe.

>>87616648
than

>>87624990
How can you have free will if you can't do evil?

>>87625317
Prevent evil existing as a concept

>>87625281
Oh look, its the "LEX WAS PRETENDING TO BE AN EDGY TEENAGER WHO JUST ENCOUNTERED NIETZSCHE CLIFFNOTES FOR THE FIRST TIME!!" argument.

>>87616799
Because despite the fact that Superman would like himself to be seen as just another guy trying to save lives, the public has deified him and shaped him into something bigger and more powerful than he really is. Luthor's plan is to either a) prove to Superman that he can't be a good person with his power or b) prove to the world that he isn't omnipotent. Either way, Luthor proves to himself that a being greater than himself, i.e. a rich and powerful human being, can exist.

>>87625355
Evil is a subjective concept.

>>87625369
The problem with that argument is, ya know, superman. How the public sees him is irrelevant to whatever agency he finally decides to have. The main problem with MoS and BvS is superman, still, after two movies, still has no agency what so ever. He just reacts, rather mindlessly, to plot elements.

>>87622157
I agree. Eisenberg fucking killed.

>>87625361
its more like he found half of a philosophy 101 final cheat sheet.

>>87625392
If God exists, then it isn't

>>87622157
You don't get an oscar for playing the same role twice.

>>87625562
If god exists, from whenst cometh evil?

>>87622157
>I figured out way back

jesus christ, really? did snyder create an universe where epicurus did not exist and nobody has this thought until luthor?

>>87625392
No it isn't

File: rickandsquanchy.jpg (79KB, 640x802px) Image search: [Google]

79KB, 640x802px

Is BVS more intellectual than rick and morty?

>>87617676
>Dissertation in philosophy
>Shitposts in superhero threads on the tv board of a basketweaving forum

Sounds about right.

>>87625657
literally me

>>87625630
>>87625562
>tfw you aren't getting (you)s from your post

feels bad.

now define evil without any other concept. I'll wait.

>>87625361
Does Lex think Superman is God, or at least *a* god?

>>87625607
Good question.
There are several different answers but I don't see how this helps solve the problem of evil?

>>87625685
gotta do something with that degree

>>87625470
>still has no agency what so ever. He just reacts, rather mindlessly, to plot elements.
That is complete bullshit if you actually pay attention to these films. Back up with evidence or GTFO

>>87625706
If God exists, then evil is an action that occurs which God doesn't like - that's a pretty simplified definition but I think it works

>>87625710
irrelevant, as hes quoting epicurus at him, verbatim, like he was the only person to ever think it. An assertion that is self-evident simply by the fact superman is standing in front of him not saving countless lives around the planet.

>>87616648
Maybe because he's not a God.

>>87625803
God would be another concept.
God's definitions of X and Y are arbitrary.
Fail on two counts.

>>87625767
You want me to post proof that clark, in BvS and MoS engages in actions of his own accord that are of his own will?

That's kinda hard as all hes done in both movies is react to plot elements. Why don't you post a point where he's done something of his own agency?

>>87625010
>Theological debate, between theologians, is ultimately pointless because it will be predicated upon the idea that God does exist and is everything that is attributed to Him is fundamentally true. Any conclusion that even suggests the non-existence of god or brushes against Epicurus must be reevaluated and words must be redefined until its resettled that God is real, is omniscient, omnipotence is possible, and free will exists, otherwise the theologian is worshiping an entity that isn't all that great, doesn't know a whole lot, or is knowingly creating people hes knowingly dooming to lives of misery and suffering and/or eternities of punishment.
Man. The other month I had an argument with someone here on /tv/ talking about God, and it was because of this all along I couldn't get through to him.

>>87625628
>taking a figure of speech literally

jesus christ, really? did your mom create a child this autistic?

I liked BvS too lads but are we seriously still meming about this movie

>>87625987
any kid that tried to say he figured out uber and unter mensch way back would be slapped upside the head.

File: IMG_0711.jpg (136KB, 636x682px) Image search: [Google]

136KB, 636x682px

>>87625825
Not irrelevant. If he believes him to be a god, then he really is a lunatic. If he doesn't, he clearly has a hidden agenda, just like he had with everyone else he interacted with over the course of the film.

So does he or doesn't he?

ITT confused marvel pajeets.
lmao maybe stop being a brainlet and understand the movie.

>>87626056
it astounds me that after more than a year we still have pajeets asking questions about this film. snyder created a film far too intelligent for these shitskins its hilarious

>>87626052
If he has issues with others believing he is God, then the conclusion that he is not is self-evident by the fact he isn't everywhere saving everyone at all times.

Bringing epicurus into a superman movie at all, especially one with such a shitty an ineffectual superman, is utterly moronic. There is no reason what so ever to worship this entity as god, except, maybe, praying to superman has a marginally higher success rate than praying to God.

Also no one gives a fuck about the SS connection to BvS as no one was listening to a word eisenberg said, as he was a crazy awkward spastic who never, at any point, came across as the mastermind he needed to be in order to be behind LITERALLY EVERYTHING that happened in the movie.

>>87626042
not if the people he told weren't autistic and/or were native english speakers and understood the figure of speech "I figured out" implies that the speaker is not claiming to be the originator of the knowledge but rather learned it.

>>87625920
I will. He chooses to abandon his pursuit of Bruce at the party to save the girl from the fire. He didn't have to, he chose to. What's even better is that the TV reporter even says, "I can't believe that no one is going to save her."

>46 IPs
About right.

>>87625987
>"I figured out way back" is a figure of speech

'murican education

>>87626149
The term "i figured it out" is literally a claim of being the originator of the knowledge.

>>87626171
Son, that's not a choice, that's a reaction. Creeping after bruce isn't saving lives. But its only when hes faced with the fact hes not doing a damned thing of value at the party that he bails, and only because he saw evidence of his inaction on the goddamn news.

>>87626144
Get off your fucking soapbox and answer the question. Right now, you're doing exactly what he hoped Superman would do - react to the situation without any actual thought.

What does Lex say right after he reveals he's got his mom?

>>87626230
You ever passed someone having car trouble? Was that your. Was that your choice or your reaction?

>>87626247
Mang, you do this every time. You ask a meaningless rhetorical question then act like not getting a specific answer to your meaningless rhetorical question is somehow cowardice.

Why don't you tell the class what you believe lex's motivations were? We're all ears here. You've been at this for years now and you've never once just laid it all out.

>>87626184
>>87626188
you pajeets need to accept that your 3rd world english education is inferior.

>>87626316
If it's so meaningless, what's the harm in giving it an honest answer, you fucking chickenshit?

>>87626306
A more apt comparison would be being in the employ of the department of transportation roadside assistance department and stopping to help a person in car trouble.

Is stopping to help a choice or a reaction?

>>87626396
>he doesn't just lay out his interpretations and, again resorts to answering questions with questions

coward.

>>87626412
Oh, it's Superman's job to help people now? How about yours? Is it just not your problem? He's making a conscious choice every time he chooses to put on the suit and go out and help people.

>>87626412
>hello and welcome to the department of redundancy department, welcome, and hello.

>>87626412
But it's not Superman's job to help people.

>>87626456
I asked you first, dickhead.

>>87625854
>God's definitions of X and Y are arbitrary.
lmao what?
No, that's the entire point
They would be anything but if it's God's account since God would be objectively right (what with creating the universe, consciousness and concepts in the first place)

>>87626508
>>87626488
it might as well be seeing how reluctant and uncaring he is about it in the DCEU

>>87626488
>>87626508
The closest thing to a willful act clark ever engaged in was pushing the bus of drowning kids out of the river.

>>87626547
>it might as well be
"It might as well be" is not the same thing as "it is."
>>87626555
Nice trips but did you just ignore the fact that:
>it's not Superman's job to help people.

>>87626536
>objectivity
>in subjective terms

uh huh

God just has a stick to punish with and no equals to question him, if he exists.

>>87626589
"Helping people" is the only inkling of agency clark has displayed at any point in the DCEU. This line of replies started as a result of pointing out how clark, in general, has no real agency.

>>87626555
He also chose *not* to save his father. He also chose to turn himself into the government instead of directly to Zod. He also chose to oppose Zod and side with us instead of his own people. He also chose to to kill Zod.

You don't get to arbitrate choice simply because it's in reaction to something else. If you stop and help a stranded motorist, is that a choice or a reaction? Newsflash! It's both, dumbass.

>>87626702
He reacted to his father telling him not to save him. That isn't a choice.

>>87626601
You realise this is the equivalent of saying that the rules of Scrabble are subjective while the game's inventor has an easily-available list of the rules?

I suppose you could argue we're talking about different conceptions of God. But assuming we're talking about the Christian God then what he says is objectively correct since he's infallible too

>>87626750
>life is a game

nice philosophy

>>87626726
If your dad was out there and told you not to save him, whose choice is it to act or not to? Are you not your own man? Do you lack agency?

>>87626179
>Hi I'm 10 what's an intellectual discussion??

>>87626831
200 people fly-by shitposting
Duh

File: 1497316785486.png (16KB, 741x609px) Image search: [Google]

16KB, 741x609px

>/tv/ tries to be intellectual

>god creates a trazillion universes with trillions of galaxies each
>little humies in Sol sector keep bitching and praying and killing gays, like I got nothing better to do

Be lucky you faggots are only getting 1 hurricane
-GOD

File: 1483454483116.png (37KB, 640x400px) Image search: [Google]

37KB, 640x400px

>>87627055
>be omniscient
>be omnipresent
>be omnipotent
cant take care of your sole and greatest creation

>>87627301
My favorite answer to this comes from that old George Burns movie, "O God."

>If you're really an all-powerful god, how can you permit all the suffering in the world?

>How can *I* permit? How can *you* permit?

>>87626791
If you react to your father in the way he has conditioned you to, it is his choice, and your reaction.

If all you do is react to stimulus in a way that is conditioned, then you are not choosing.

>>87627448
So did your father condition you to be this obtuse, or was it just a misfortune of your birth?

>>87627440
That's just a deflection though. People have tried numerous times to end all suffering in the world, all attempts have ended in tears.

>>87627483
If anything, 4chan has conditioned me to just ignore all posts because all posters are idiots. Which you are certainly proving yourself to be. I ignore that, out of hope.

>>87627552
According to you, none of us have agency because we've all in our own ways been "conditioned" to react in certain ways by our parents. Please do leave off with the pretensions of intellectual superiority.

>>87627440
>Why did god make man so flawed to begin with
>why was his son such a poor teacher >why does he not make an appearance every 100 years to keep man on the straight and narrow
>why, if he is all powerful with the ability to blink all suffering away does he expect man to do it when he knows full well we are incapable

>>87624990
>if God is all knowing he has no need to test us
Maybe so we can independently learn from our mistakes and see how helpless we are without him? Have you ever considered he is allowing us to wallow in our failure so that there can be no excuse when the time of judgment comes?

>>87627624
Feel free to offer some proof that is incorrect.

>>87627502
And tears or not, the world's a better place for the attempt than it would be with a godly nanny and a herd of complacent, well-fed sheep.

Adversity is the antidote to stagnation.

>>87627752
Because of the attempt to solve hunger in Ethiopia, the population of Ethiopia has gone from 30 million starving Africans to 60 million starving Africans in two decades.

So, no, the attempt does not make the world a better place. The attempt to make Ethiopia better actually doubled the amount of suffering.

also that would mean god is malevolent.

>>87627701
Because it is an endless feedback loop where no one ever had agency, yet we all make different decisions on a daily, if not hourly basis than what our parents would either want or expect.

In your scenario, your parents "programmed" you because of how their parents programmed them, and so on back to the dawn of the species. Well who programmed them? God? Initial conditions? If that's your case, then pissing and moaning about a fictional character's lack of agency is beyond irrelevant, as you're without it as well.

>>87627687
Makes no sense. Why would he need to judge as if he knows long before we are even born all our actions; good and bad. Why do we need to be self aware of our own actions since all our actions are predetermined by god

>>87627918
You're equivocating pretty hardcore, yo.

Why are you trying to turn this into a free will debate? Clark kent does not have free will, he does whatever he is written to do, and all hes been written to do is react to situations without any illusion of the character having any sort of agency.

Also methinks doth protest too much.

File: IMG_0158.jpg (32KB, 948x315px) Image search: [Google]

32KB, 948x315px

>>87627858
I'd argue that it is, because you can't weigh knowledge, happiness, and suffering on a scale. We've learned what doesn't work. Time to try another route.

A man in the sky coming to fix all the problems only means we'll invent brand new ones.

>>87627925
>Why do we need to be self aware of our own actions since all our actions are predetermined by god
Our actions aren't predetermined. We had the ability to choose. Him knowing ahead of time doesn't negate our freewill.

>>87628021
Methinks thou forgottest thy "thou."

You were given about half a dozen examples of choice in a couple of posts. If Clark was conditioned to not save his father and protect his secret at all costs, then literally everything he does is an example of him acting counter to that conditioning. Why? Because he's choosing to.

>>87628065
our actions are predetermined, he sets the pieces in motion knowing full well what our choice will be. Free will is an illusion

File: 1503937869970.gif (1MB, 296x160px) Image search: [Google]

1MB, 296x160px

>161 posts
>49 IPs

>>87628227
Holy crap. LOL!

This thread BTFO

On what principles does God decide what is good and what is bad? Who is he to make up the rules? Did he base his morality on a even bigger entity?

>>87628285
What if your phone or computer were to suddenly ask you who are you to decide what site to use today? Who are you to make up the rules? What do you base your preferences and morality upon?

>>87628172
I countered soundly countered every assertion that clark acted in any capacity that resembled agency then went full talos by establishing, since hes a fictional character, he by definition has no agency.

>>87628333
Microsoft

>>87628333
If i want a cheeky wank or not

>>87628350
OK, the "illusion" of agency, then. Once again, by your own assertions, that's all any of us have to begin with, so at worst, he's no worse off than the rest of us.

>>87628285
it's a question of definition. God is the thing that decides what is good and bad. God is the thing that makes up the rules. God is the "biggest" entity. If he does not fulfill those qualifications, he's not God.

>>87628424
We are not fictional characters, we have no bearing on this debate.

>>87628450
I bet you hated BvS, faggot

>>87628450
We do when you arbitrarily re-define reaction to preclude choice.

>>87628218
Free will is only a thing if God is ignorant of the ultimate outcome? Why?

And the Bible itself answers the popular question as to why he allows bad things to happen.

>>87628463
You say that like its a bad thing.

>>87628522
The worst thing here is your debating skills, and the only one unaware of it is you.

File: 1491731532406.jpg (147KB, 1280x717px) Image search: [Google]

147KB, 1280x717px

>>87628522
you are hilarious. reddit is down the hall and to the left.

I'm defining clark's actions by his established conditioning in the context of the narrative. He by definition has no capacity for choice, due to his fictional nature, and the predilections for his reactions are clearly established by the films.

You are the person bringing real people into a debate on the nature of a fictional character's actions.

>>87626675
Right. So he has agency. Got it.

>>87628582
You'd like reddit. If you don't like a post you don't even have to reply, you can just shut it down with a click.

>>87628642
how'd you know that you fucking atheist redditor MCUck

>>87628615
jor-el literally bred him to do it, according to jor-el's statements in the film.

then pa raised him to do it secretly.

>>87628021
>Clark kent does not have free will
What? Look at these:

>>87626508
>>87626488

>>87628654
know thine enemy

>>87628606
Then your entire argument is pointless, because it applies to every fictional character ever. I recommend you stick to surveillance cams, as their captured footage is the only thing that meets your definition of agency.

>>87628750
>literally every character will have well established criteria for why their actions are not conscious choice, but reactions

... yea okay, your gracious concession is noted.

>>87628679
No. He bred him to have choice unlike the status quo of Kryptonian society at the time. Not to help people outright.

>>87628820
He then tells him directly he was born to lead people into the light or whatever the fuck, implying that, no, he did not breed kal-el for free will, but to be an altruist.

File: 1481165028117.png (486KB, 644x922px) Image search: [Google]

486KB, 644x922px

these are literally the best threads on /tv/

>>87628820
Jor-El is so dead against assigning a role for his son that all he ever tells him is what he *can* be to the world, never once what he has to be or even should be.

>>87628874
>He then tells him directly he was born to lead people into the light or whatever the fuck
No. He says he CAN lead the people of earth, that there is hope within everyone and he can guide them.

>there are "humans" that didn't get that Luthor's whole actual blunt surface beef with superman was that his place as one of the captains of the world had been completely usurped by the presence of a Superman and that he would do anything to manipulate or destroy him to regain that control

>>87628807
If his actions are so purely and clearly based on such well-established criteria, why does he choose to turn himself over to the authorities, the one thing that his parents feared the most? Where was that particular criterion established?

>>87627448
>choose to follow order
>the order is the choice and you're reacting to it
HAHAHAHAHA NIGGA YOU ARE RETARDED

>>87628993
Welcome to the Great Divergence, anon. You have a front-row seat to the point in history where humanity develops a clear demarcation between those with an actual capacity for abstract thought and those who do not.

We now live in a world with honest-to-God meat robots, devoid of all soul.

>>87628993
These "people," I guess, are actually dumb enough to take Lex' statements at face value.

>>87628984
Imma appeal to what seems to be your political leanings.

its the same type of shit as LIBTARDS tellin all da kids to vote wit da expecshuns they gonna votes for LIBTARDS.

as the entire concept of krypton in the DCEU is a society that had mastered genetics to the point where they could control behavior. And its not like kal-el decided to fuck a ho from the evil caste, now innit.

>>87629000
because he literally had to? He had already been exposed by zod's broadcast?

did they even let you watch these movies before they hired you to shill them for-fucking-ever?

>>87629293
No idea what you just said.

>>87629145
Considering lex did nothing but act like a completely spastic retard the entire movie, why wouldn't they? He literally never did anything to contradict the idea hes a total spastic retard.

>>87629369
That's a lot of syllables for a tiny mind.

>>87626171
Even better the reporter says
>I can't believe they're gonna let her die
Which ties into
>You let your family die
And
>You're letting him kill Martha
This idea of "letting" people die without directly killing them directly fuels the all good/all powerful question by Lex. If you have the power to intervene but don't, are you responsible for the consequences of not acting?

>>87629339
No he didn't. He could have flown straight to Zod. He chose not to, chose, in fact, to do the one thing his parents feared the most. What's even more, he decides to do that after his conversation with the priest, based off his experience with Pete Ross, he chooses to take the priest's advice, take a leap of faith, and trust in humanity.

>>87629450
>No he didn't.
mang that was awful cruel of your supervisor.

>>87626675
How about him investigating the death of Santos and The Batman in Gotham? He directly disobeyed orders by his editor not to pursue that story.

>>87618454
>How does "can God make a rock so big/heavy that he couldn't lift it" make no sense? The answer is supposed to create a paradox

Because it doesn't make logical sense. If you were the most powerful being in the universe, why would you create something that's more powerful than you? The point of being a god is having unlimited power

>>87629471
It's clear you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Zod outing him didn't leave him without a choice. He could have chosen to remain in hiding. He could have chosen to go to his fellow Kryptonians, but what he chose to do was turn himself over to human authorities.

>>87616793
>God couldn't create a square with no corners
he did its called CIRCLE

>>87616799
Luthor was just a edgy fedora atheist with daddy issues trying to kill god

>>87629602
His main reason for hiding was pa kent's fears of how humanity would react to knowing they're not only not the center of the universe, but not even close to the most power beings in the universe.

So the kryptonians dropping in negates that completely. Since your script instructs you to harp on how clark was raised as human, that means he has no choice but to comes out to the humans, something hes wanted to do his entire life.

>>87628710
If you gaze into reddit, reddit gazes also into you.
I'm sorry you're such a dumb faggot.

>>87629726
I'm not afraid of gays, by virtue of not being an adolesecnt male.

>>87629471
was it really? These movies are fucking awful.

>>87629651
But a circle isn't a square.
You're being obtuse.

>>87629651
a circle is just a square with INFINITE corners

ITT: brainlets who never read "city of god"

>when religious people try to insult the intelligence of literally anyone else alive

>>87616689
Its not a paradox if you're all powerful but choose not to stop evil. This simply means god/you are not all good.

Those two combine don't create paradox.

>>87631312
If god isn't all good why call him god?

if God is all powerful then His will is defined as all good.

>>87616793
>Being all powerful doesn't entail the ability to create logical impossibilities
Nigga what? If you are all mighty the rules that bound this world are nothing in comparison and you can break them. If you are bounded by logic then you aren't omnipotent.

>>87631935
Might makes right? Nice philosophy.

File: 1478432154983.jpg (29KB, 197x190px) Image search: [Google]

29KB, 197x190px

Unironically comfy